Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 200



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: World Building software?  
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Pyramid
Thought For The Day...
Fw: tanks
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Out-of-Character comments
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: [Debate]   Solomani Sam 2 resp to The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: WebSector
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: Clif-Proof Weaponry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:53:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>writes:
>He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>
>That's a perfectly reasonable question, phrased in normal
>conversational English.

In my part of the globe, that's considered rude. (OK, teenagers don't
consider it rude.)  

I've been cautioned by my administration about using this kind of
language. (What I _wanted_ to say was a lot more pungent, given that I was
being assigned work that should have been done by someone who was paid
millions yet hadn't delivered. IIRC, I'd been given enough duties to bring
me up to a 70-hour week, and I'd muttered "that sucks" to myself in a
private meeting.)

ObTrav? Consider that normal phrases in one part of the Imperium might be
insults in another. A wise Traveller will adapt himself to his
surroundings, and consciously avoid giving offense. Rather than claiming
loudly that "'gutwap' is acceptable where _I_ come from" he will find a
less loaded term.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:00:57 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

Rob Prior writes:
>ObTrav? Consider that normal phrases in one part of the Imperium might be
>insults in another. A wise Traveller will adapt himself to his
>surroundings, and consciously avoid giving offense. Rather than claiming
>loudly that "'gutwap' is acceptable where _I_ come from" he will find a
>less loaded term.

For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
intercourse, in a rather crude manner (ie. "f**k"). Now imagine your
average military type on a mission, getting in trouble for obscenity when
he says "roger that" to his patron.

For added fun, pick a common word and force the players to talk in
character!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:05:54 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: World Building software?  

Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> writes:
>Scott Spieker wrote:-
>
>>Ok,
>>Now that we have gotten a few bites on the idea of the web sector, >what
>about a fast easy way of using the world builder's handbook?  >Does anyone
>know of any software that can that the UPP of the >system/main planet and
>transcribe that information into human >readable text?
>>A spreadsheet or anything else would be greatly appreciated.
>
>You'll be wanting my World Builder Deluxe software. It generates extended

Or, if you have a Mac, my Metator software (www.bits.org.uk).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:10:30 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

Frank Pitt wrote:

>He _didn't_ say  :
>"Yo [profanity excised], which of you zoned-out crackheads is going to tell
>me why GT should be inserted sideways up Clinton's ass?"

What, are you some kind of idiot? This isn't a newsgroup. There are rules,
written or not, on this list and you're breaking them with your
hypothetical profanity.

As for your apology, Allen, none is required. Pitt here should be the one
apologizing, but based on the tone of his post, I seriously doubt he has
the humility to know when he's done wrong.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:15:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/25/99 11:42:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 Guess things are different down South in the 'Land of the Fee' :-)
  >>

We're no free-er these days than you guys...:-(  (Of course it's all relative,
and it's better than living in some third world dictatorship; unless of course
you're a member of their elites...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:29:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Thought For The Day...

After seeing the more recent non-Traveller related posts on the list, 
I am reminded of a quote, from Disney World's Magic Kingdom, of all 
places:

"In Nature, there are no such things as rewards or punishments, only
consequences."

To make this ObTrav, I suppose I should add that this is the
philosophy of the universe, at least as portrayed by science
fiction. The vacuum of interstellar space is cold, unforgiving, and
uncaring. An ill-maintained ship is eventually going to misjump;
that's not a reward or punishment, but a consequence for a chosen
action.

Then again, so many things are...

Trapped in a random thought,
Jason

PS If you can understand why this thought comes to mind, that's cool. 
 If not, that's cool, too.  Give it time.  :)
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:42:00 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Fw: tanks

> >better fire control system (at night, too... the thermals we use are alot
> >better than the FLIR on the 60s).
> 
> Actually, the M-60A3 TTS had a way better thermal sight than M-1/M-1A1s,
> except it seemed a lot less reliable. Whne they worked, however, they gave a
> better picture. The ballistic computer was slightly harder to use, but just
> as accurate.  I served for 3 years on M-60s and 2 on M-1s.  Both ALLWAYS hit
> with every round, given an average gunner and a good boresight.  Also, as my

I witnessed a little debate when I was in Knox.  Our platoon sgts (who had
been in the Gulf in 60A3s) had said something similar but some of the other
experienced ones had said they felt differently.  My class was going through
when the Armor Conference was there (kinda like a fair... all kinds of
sparkling clean AFVs hanging around...).  So they took practically the whole
company and a General Dynamics Land Systems guy was there and he gave a hip
pocket class.  I can't remember the point by point of it, but even the "old
guard" platoon sgt's were convinced.  I think it had something to do the
phosphorous smoke and our current tactics with it, as well as the fires caused
by the wells the Iraqis lit, but really don't remember the particulars.  The
new systems have been "cheapened" a bit to make them more economic, too.

> unit had a lot of oldtimers in it, I got to listen to a lot of nostalgia for
> the old APERS round- that and HEP.  The lack of a good anti-personel round
> for the M-256 is, IMHO, its only real flaw.

Not PC right now. : )  Besides, giving the current financial considerations
they're even talking of removing large groups of personnel from HEAT/MPAT and
"tank like targets" from sabot rounds.  Use machine guns for personnel is what
we're being told now.  Not a problem w/ the main gun.  Just lacks the round
and many argue we don't need it.

> Just for the Army's honor, I would like to point out that 4out of5 USMC
> officers i my AOBC class failed the written English test.  The one who
> passed was a reservist.  OTOH, Someone from the Tennessee ANG showed up 
> with his branch insigina on upside-down.

Oh, i'm completely good natured about it.  Don't take it personal.  When I
call the soldiers that I personally know 'buttcrack,' it's meant
affectionately.  ; )  *One* (of the 3) Army drill sgts attached to our
training unit at Knox has to be one of the hardest mothers I've ever run into,
including my own DIs.  He said he wanted to lat transfer to the USMC, but they
were going to make him go to Marine boot camp (where he would have a real fun
time, no doubt), take rank from him, and were going to make him an admin POG,
so he obviously didn't do it.  He was always punching and hitting us
(especially in the gut).  And he would thrash the hell out of us when someone
errantly stepped on an EGA that were numerous on the deck of our barracks, far
worse than any of the Marine NCOs (and they weren't fun, by any means).

When was this?  I've looked into a few commissioning programs in various
branches and becoming a USMC officer is, by far, the hardest, mentally and
physically.  College requirements et al.  In fact, I thought for awhile bout
going through an army or navy commissioning program cause they're alot easier
(though i decided I have far too much pride and respect for my core values to
actually do that).  Basically all my enlisted training is useless.  
For the Marines, I'd still have to do 10-12 weeks of OCS (depending on the
program), 6 months at The Basic School, and then MOS all over again.  For the
army program, for example, I'm not required to do the basic (because of MCRD)
and just have to do a 2 week "muster" kind of thing and then go to MOS (AIT,
whatever) and that's basically it.  The Navy was about the same IIRC.  All of
these after the college degree, of course.

When I saw all that, I gained a whole lot more respect for my officers, which
has always been high.  Can't recall any officer I've ever been under who's
been less than outstanding.  I remember seeing army officers who wouldn't
stand a chance and navy officers who were fat and nasty as hell.  I'd have a
real hard time respecting them.  My training should not have been harder than
those who are leading me.  YMMV.

>   In fact, I remember the big ruckuss that arose when we...
> >acquired... one of their guidons right before one of their ceremonies...
> >*That* was amusing.   :-)  Next up would be the time they were marching to
> >chow (must've been the *4th* damn time that same company recycled while I
> was
> >there) and we were in the way and had no intention of moving (word to the
> >wise, don't EVER try to break a unit's ranks).
> 
> Was this IET?  (or whatever the USMC calls initial branch training after
> boot?)

Yes.  We just call it 'MOS school,' to my knowledge.  Only time I've had any
opportunity to "mingle" with army.

> >Usually.  Course zero times 2 is still 0.  That Kentucky windage you old
> >timers used just isn't as good w/ a really fast tank.
> 
> UUh, we had wind sensors, lead, etc.   Note that the M-60A3 wind sensor was
> withdrawn for being TOO accurate (and expensive)

I know.   I was being silly.

> OBTRAV:  Do planetary militaries get hand-down Imperial stuff?  Based on the
> length (time-wise) of a TL, this could lead to some reserve units with
> REALLY old stuff, especially in the interior.  Thinking of that , does Core
> sector have subsector navies?  Seems a waste.

Colonial forces are said to be hand-me-downs.  Core sector does indeed have
subsector fleets.  Capital itself has 4 extra as an "Imperial reaction force,"
which makes sense.  As far as having 16 regular and 16 reserve...  Piracy must
*really* be non-existant there!  And then some!  Or the fleets could be some
kind of reserves.  Keep headquarters for each up and running, etc w/ various
smaller units (couple squadrons at a time per fleet) going through "training
cycles", anti piracy sweeps (in response to ebb and flow of interstellar crime
or something), etc and they get called up when there's a war or something...
having the core sectors have full military forces would seem to be kind of
silly and unnecessary...  kinda analogous to the US putting a full fleet
(maybe just a single carrier battle group) on the great lakes and not going
anywhere except when there's an actual war.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:42:05 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

I think your entire post was very well said and quite on the mark, Frankie.

> His later responses about people being afraid to post negative comment
> are, while somewhat paranoid, I feel justified by the reaction his
> comment got. To an outsider it would seem that many people were trying
> to stifle negative discussion about the subject.  To someone's who
> been around the list for a while, well, it's just the sort of
> prissiness and holier-than-thou attitude one has to expect on the TML

You noticed that?  : )  Called the "politicians" by Harold Hale's "Clans of
the TML" (http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/tml98.txt).  Hey Harold, you out
there?  Bout time for a '99 version, no?  Probably the Cycles of T4 are gone,
replaced w/ the nascent G:T'ers...

Clif does need more tact (and this from me! <g>), but there are many people
who can't seem to wait to flame him and are just as guilty as he is of any
misconduct.

<<Politicians - Throw 100 percent of their support online behind whatever
the current system is this week.  Never hold a controversial opinion,
and constantly suck up to Marc and or Loren.  When asked what their
favorite version of Traveller is will respond, "all of them".  Evades
questions on what they actually use to role-play--they probably don't.>>

> >He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>  
> Nothing.

Ahem.  It's this same attitude that manifested w/ IG at first.  Unless GT
reverses its editing problems, IMO it'll end up in the same place as T4 after
the initial excitement wears down.  I, for one, hope it doesn't happen as I'm
looking forward for GT to get done rehashing the LBBs and to get on w/
adventures and unveiling it's mysteries.

The GT partisans will ooh and aah over every other product unless they get
burned by something of Starships or First Survey caliber.  Having people say
their books are falling apart would probably rate "suck" too, though thats a
problem that's probably not confined to G:T.  *My* books are holding up fine,
but that's because I rarely crack the cover on them (as opposed to things I
open almost daily, or twice daily like PoT or FF&S which are holding up fine,
though there's whitening on corners, etc), and why I'm consequently going to
be reviewing GT books very carefully from now on before I buy.
 
> Does that mean that GT has no problems?  No.  I dislike Imperial
> measurements.  That does no "suck" however.  It's a minor annoyment.  The
> system questions are fairly irrelevent to me, since I use CORPS.

Good ghul, Doug, you and everyone else knew damned well what Clif was asking.
And that was what's wrong w/ GT.  You wanna flame him, fine, but don't pretend
it's anything but that with the rest of us.  And really don't get peeved when
he hits back. 
It's all pretty entertaining to me (comments along the lines of "You can
overthrow the govt by yourself?  You got Superman Underoos or something?" or
the Sympathies and where they go on toilet paper make me ROFL).  Damn, what
was the latest one... can't remember... i'm gonna have to start collecting a
"Clif anthology."

I think you plonked him anyways.  


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:42:11 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Out-of-Character comments

> The alternate universe was postulated as part of the 'ground
> rules'.  Remember that in the "real" universe/TNE direction,
> Dulinor killed Strephon not long after receiving the archducal
> coronet.  In the "real" universe/GURPS Traveller direction,
> Dulinor died in what would have been his assassination mission.

Dulinor was made archduke in 1104 according to MT Players Manual and Survival
Margin.  He assassinates Strephon 12 years after that in the official
universe/timeline, during which he repeatedly made "public statements" of his
dissatisfaction and chafing with the nobility/old guard.

> There wasn't _time_ in either universe for this debate.  That's
> why I had to postulate a third time line.  The rest of your
> commentary is interesting, and might have validity - but either
> way would preclude this kind of debate having happened, simply on
> the time factor.

Who says?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but why couldn't this exact
same debate have happened in the official universe somewhere between 1104 and
1115?  He certainly was "fighting the conservative elements of the Imperial
society and the vastness of the Imperium iteself.  His own public statements
during the period reflected a growing bitterness and disaffection with the
empire and with its emperor."  -MT Players Manual, pg 75.   

What i'm trying to say is that this very debate doesn't need to be by
psuedonym (though could be as a form of "username" type thing on the Xmail, i
guess) but could be one notable instance of Dulinor's "public statements,"
like the Federalist Papers aren't the only instance of the fueding between
what would be the Federalists and Democratic-Republicans.

> There's the issue of regicide.  Norris was clearly loyal to the
> Imperium in the abstract, and to Strephon personally (this can be
> gleaned from Arrival Vengeance).  That would change his attitude
> in the Rebellion universe - not to mention the danger of the AV
> mission to start with - a detour to Dlan may not have been
> justifiable.  With no regicide, Norris might have been (is) less
> set against Dulinor, and willing to discuss the issues.  Again,
> the One Event makes a difference.

Diplomacy, politics, and a pure duty to his subjects (which Norris, like
Craig, valued higher than the Imperium and Strephon) would necessitate there
not be a pure "blackout" of even attempts at some form of dialogue/treaty.
Dulinor's territory (though Strephon's even moreso) provides a possible
connection of at least trade (the lifeblood of Traveller interstellar
economics) at least, and maybe even with the core regions of the Imperium.
Vland falls through with fighting in Corridor.  For whatever reason.  Strephon
doesn't connect either... Going through the Islands only requires adding a
couple deep space stations IIRC and connects somewhere in Reft, pretty much
right between Dulinor and Strephon.   

Of course, as is my tendancy, I'd probably say there was a dialogue and some
limited contact, but never materialized fully, for numerous reasons.  Arrival
Vengeance *should* still have at least tried a diplomatic call.  Especially if
they were to go to on Lucan, of all factions.  This is easily rectified by
doing a scenario in Illelish.  

> In a way, that's what makes threads like this so interesting (at
> least to me) - it's an opportunity to explore the possibilities
> of What-Might-Have-Been in depth, and, in hindsight, makes the
> decision to split the timeline a good one.

Well, canon to me has always been solely the "historical" events of Imperial
Space.  These I consider inviolable and vehemently oppose any tinkering with.
Nothing to do with interpolations from character generation, half thought
comments in limited publications, etc or the mechanics of the game rules and
design systems.  If the background says something, then the game rules should
justify it.  If the game rules don't, then they're wrong and shouldn't impact
"canon."  This smoothes over the issue of the mixed mechanics lot we are, too.
:-)

I much prefer an advancing background of some kind rather than going sideways
through the "possibilities," though their use could make for quite an
interesting "sliders" type adventures or even campaign.  That's one thing I
like about Traveller so much, the progression from stable (or stale) Imperium
of original Traveller to the Shattered Imperium/succession war, and then the
aftermath and the polities and interactions that come after the great empire
is gone.  That smacks of real life.  Of real history.  Now many hated to see
it happen, but nothing stops them from playing in the "good ol days" but if
everything is confined to the good ol days, I'm just plain not interested in
what's unusable in the New Era, just as the old timers aren't interested in my
setting.  Perhaps GDWs mistake was not in doing the New Era, but in not
providing any "historical" type supplements with a basis in the "good ol days"
but with notes (or even a section) on how the same subject in the New Era that
would've been usable to both settings.  Course, if GDW hadn't fell (and taken
TNE w/ it), they might well have, though it's probably kind of doubful.   

I hope the SAEPs of T5 arent' as exclusive.  Seems to me, it's the only way to
hold on the interests of existing players, while reaching out to the newbies.
In fact, maybe a classic/New Era approach is how it should go?  Put the
setting at 1111/1201 for the classic/New Era sections.  The classic section
could fill out the events and history of 1110-1116 better (6 years can draw
out a whole lot of supplements).  The 1201 could advance the Reformation
Coalition/Regency/Pocket Empires.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:50:55 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

Frank said:

>I'm utterly flabbergasted at the flak Cliff's getting for his question
>about Gurps Traveller
>
>He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>
>That's a perfectly reasonable question, phrased in normal
>conversational English.


Yep. It is a reasonable question. The conversational tone is fine. However,
the flak he received was because he became abusive and insufferable when
people responded with what they liked.

It's a pattern. He gets abusive and nasty in nearly any discussion he's
involved with. People explained, some politely and some not so, that perhaps
he should have phrased his original question in a more concise matter. Seems
simple enough a concept...

>I wouldn't find the latter example personally insulting either, or
>grounds for the sort of comment Cliff is getting for his innocuous
>question. Though I can see why grandma's sewing circle might be upset


Nope. He's getting the flak for his abusive followup. It's a predictable
pattern. Clif says something. People respond, usually politely. Clif gets
mad because he didn't get what he wanted when he wanted and he throws and
abusive temper tantrum.

>For me, anyway, the positive benefits of subscribing outweigh having
>to put up with such attitudes from some of the members.
>
>Oh, and BTW, to the person who threatened to leave the list :
>"Like, we care ?"


You don't. I do, because every less member means less good stuff for me to
read about a game I like. *SURPRISE*

>That threat was another example of the sort of old boy snobbishness
>involved, implying that if a regular member of the list got _so_ upset
>the he felt like leaving, we simply _must_ deal with this reprobate,
>post haste,  eh what, old bean ?


Nope. I've said from the beginning that Clif should deal with himself and
learn how to deal with people in a relatively polite manner. It used to be
that only certain topics would blow up into nastiness, after weeks and weeks
of discussion.

Clif has accelerated this to the point that most of the discussions he gets
involved with go down the tubes within a few days.

>Basically, the people complaining about Cliff need to grow up, get a
>life, and realize they're not in kindergarten anymore, and that the
>TML is a forum for people to discuss things related to Traveller, not
>a discussion group for Mrs Beatson's Guide to Etiquette,  Mannerly
>Living, and the One Hundred and One Things a True Lady Should Not  Be
>Seen Doing In Public


Yes, discuss. Not whine and become abusive every time you phrase a question
incorrectly and don't get the answers you want. It's not a forum to insult
people based on their religious beliefs.

>And before you reply to Cliff again about how you think he should
>phrase his posts, (or before you respond to this post, for that
>matter) just think about the supposed principles of free speech in the
>country many of you hail from, the Vulcan IDIC principle, and then ask
>yourself who died and made you god ?


I have considered the supposed principles of free speech, at great length.
Do you want *free speech* or *devalued speech*? Think about that for a few
minutes.

>Uh uh, <wags finger> don't hit that reply button,   I said _think_
>about it, not regale me with your opinions about it.


Oh, I see. You want to put your ideas on the floor, but you don't want them
criticized.

>BTW, I'm fully aware of the irony of preaching against preaching, so
>don't bother commenting on that one either.


Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:00:57 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]   Solomani Sam 2 resp to The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1

In a message dated 2/24/99 4:53:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< Gentlebeing, you are mad.    If the Imperium had one "representative" per
 world, the "Senate"--yes I believe that was the old Terran term--would have
 10,000 members.  I don't even want to begin to count how many representatives
 would be needed if we wanted any type of real, responsive legislature.>>

In this super technological society; 10,000 legislatures IS workable, though I
agree that a much smaller number is easier. If you do remember; I DID say a
pyramidal structure. At the Imperial level; you would only need AT MOST, 432
senators at one per subsector. Note that since many sectors have less than 16
Imperial subsectors; there are actually less senators needed. As for
Congressmen/women; if you assign one per 20 billion persons; you would only
need  788 representatives (figures as per the Second Imperial Grand Survey,
1065).  The Solomani Rim sector would have 12 Senators and 80
Congressmen/women at the Imperial level. This is hardly unworkable. At the
sector level, there would be a Sector governor as chief executive, and a
sector congress. This is repeated at the subsector and world level...At each
level the second house of congress (the population based representives) would
represent less people.

	<<<Nothing prevents a world today from having a democartic system, many
worlds
 do,  but the only hope for a free empire lies with a "hands-off approach" to
 what goes on on a world.  Replacing nobles, who look to the long term, with
 opportunistic politicians who must needs be responsive to temporary passion
 and powerful monied interests, would lead us to  a peak of corruption and
 conflict.>>>

This is true, but to paraphrase an ancient Terran 2-D holovid (Spartacus) "I
would rather have a little republican corruption, with republican freedoms,
but I won't stand for the Tyranny of Crassus and his "new order". I trust to
the people to pick their own leaders, and the IMJ to police these leaders when
they break the law....

<<It is a comforting conceit among those in popular societies that aristocrats
 are drooling twits.>>

I never said that. I pointed out that since they are not answerable to the
people; they are at LEAST as open to corruption as elected officials. I have
lost count of the times  I have learned of Nobles who are also owners and/or
CEOs of megacorporations manipulating Imperial law or even openly breaking it
to get their company an advantage (and incidentally making them obscene
amounts of money). This kind of rot brought down the Roman republic/Empire as
surely as her moral rot of agressive wars and slavery...

<<<But there are thousands of examples of vibrant, long-lived
 aristocracies, while democracies rarely last more than a few centuries.
Also,
 democratic societies are not necessarily more humane or intelligent than
 aristocratic ones.  Since you are fond of Ancient Terra, look at the conflict
 between the early states of Athens and Sparta.  The Athenians were
democartic,
 yet they were arrogant, wasteful, foolish, tyrannical to their allies,
 merciless to their enemies and eventually lost the war.  The Spartans were
 aristocratic, yet individually they were widely known as honest, courageous
 and virtuous.  The Spartans treated their allies well and were merciful to
 their enemies, and in the end spared defeated Athens, when the rest of Greece
 demanded its destruction.>>>

A country is only as good as its' people. There is nothing to prevent a
dictatorship from being moral, but this is dependent on the honesty of the
despot. At the same time it's possible for a democratic nation to become
morally bankrupt. The difference is that it's a lot harder for an entire
nation's voting population becoming evil (who would then presumably elect evil
rulers...), than it is for an elite who has control over a voiceless minority,
to become evil... As for using the city state of Athens as a representative
democracy; this example is flawed. The voting population was so small (free
males...) that it was more properly an oligarchy...Representative democracies
tend to muddle through despite themselves (they ARE designed via checks and
balances to be in some sort of conflict to prevent lock step oligarchism...)
via the concept of "Enlightened Self Interest". That is the common sense of
the electorate to pick leaders who will govern well....

"Solomani Sam"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:08:03 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

TravellerTNE said:

<concerning GURPS books falling apart>
>be reviewing GT books very carefully from now on before I buy.


As a quick note, apparently, if your book falls apart you can send it in and
get a replacement from SJG. When they do get books from the printer that
fall apart, they don't deal with the same printers again.

Of course, you should check before sending, but this was their policy as of
at least a few weeks ago.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:52:03 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: WebSector

Well, if this project is done in Aramis / Spinward Marches I'm currently
working on Patinir for my "real" website.

Just a thought.

Jesse D.





>Thanks, Scott.  You're the first respondent, so pick a world,
>ANYWHERE in the mapped Imperium, and we'll radiate out
>from there.
>
>One additional thought.  If we arrange an intelligent subdirectory
>tree, then archivers can collate site information easier.  I was
>thinking of something like storing world info at /websector/WorldName
>and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
>how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...
>
>Hm, I can't seem to be able to web to your link... is it correct?
>
>Rob
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:53:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

	One thing I don't like about some hit location systems occurs in those
systems where the hit location is totally random.  I found to annoying to
constantly hit this guy's foot when I was trying to beat his face in.   In a
house-rules game I used the following set of tables,  each blow was directed
at one of four AIMPOINTS; high, middle, low or back.  Exact location within
each aimpoint was rolled randomly.  So If you aimed high and the enemy had an
open-faced helmet, you had some chance of hitting the unprotected face, but
odds were you would hit the helmet or maybe shoulders (not the foot).  It does
slow down combat a step, but can be fun when coupled with critical hit
results.
Table I:  Hit Location By Aim point
HIGH AIM POINT
D20 Roll	Location
1-6	Head
7-8	Face
9-10	Neck
11-12	Right Shoulder
13-15	Left Shoulder
16-17	Upper right arm
18-20	Upper left arm
  
MIDDLE AIM POINT
D20 Roll	Location
1-8	Chest
9-12	Abdomen
13-14	Groin
15-16	 Left Thigh
17-18	Forearm (right) 1 in 6 =hand
19-20	Forearm (left) 1 in 6 = hand

LOW AIM POINT
D20 Roll	Location
1-5	Abdomen
6-9	Groin
10-12	Left Thigh
13-15	Right Thigh
16	Left Knee
17	Right Knee
18	Left Calf
19	Right Calf
20	Foot (50% either)

 BACK ATTACK
D20 Roll	Location
1-2	Head
3-4	Neck
5-15	Back (=chest)
16-17	Kidneys (=Abdomen)
18-19	Thigh
20	Knee


	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:07:12 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Clif-Proof Weaponry

That's be the bolt assembly Clif :)  The bolt assembly then resides in the
bolt carrier.
Jesse



>>However, a sufficiently talented idiot can break any weapon system.
>>
>Myself being a case in point.  I forgot to put the buffer spring in the
>stock of an M-16A1 in A.I.T., when I charged the weapon the... man, I've
>forgotten the term...but the piece that houses the firing pin jammed back
in
>the stock.  This also prevented breaking the weapon open to free it.  I
>botched it good.  I seem to recall a scene where the weapon's barrel was
>being bashed into the floor by a Drill Sergeant in hopes that gravity would
>free the firing pin housing.
>
>--Clif
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #200
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 201



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
GT: Travellers' Aid Society
Re: Deckplans
GT Starmercs question
GT : Reaction Drive Modules
GT : Shivva Class Patrol Frigate (+ small craft)
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: GT Starmercs question
Temporarily unsubscribing
Re: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)
Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society
Re: World Building software?  
Metator restored
Re: [Debate]   The Old Marquis 4 resp Solomani Sam 2
Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:59:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

In a message dated 2/25/99 10:04:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< 
 For a good example of a Traveller product that does "suck", try Emperor's
 Vehicles, or First Survey.
 -- 
  >>
Amen brother.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:06:17 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

	I must admit I liked the T4 task system where Task difficulty meant varying
numbers of dice.  I liked the Alternate system offered by Kenneth Bearden (you
can find it at Freelance Traveller) even better because it avoids 1/2 die and
makes skills more important in relation to attributes.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:13:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)

At 07:58 AM 2/25/99 -0800, you wrote:

>BTW, "normal conversational English" varies by area.  We Puritans in
>New England do not talk thus and are shocked when Ye speaketh such. ;-)

For a full 15 seconds I considered translating the original question into
Flaming Fairy, the offcial language of Castro.  Also known as "let's be gay
for the Tourists talk."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:11:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

At 03:42 PM 2/25/99 EST, you wrote:

>Good ghul, Doug, you and everyone else knew damned well what Clif was
>asking.

No, I didn't, because he was using English in a new way.

Let me explain what "sucks."

Cancer sucks.  Knowing that I have a 20% chance of living to fifty without
a reoccurance sucks.

I don't have time to be so negative.

I have problems with G:T.  *None* of them are so bad that I would not
recommend these products to friends.  I am also concerned about the
editing, and can only hope that SJG loosens the policy of shoving something
out the door by the deadline, no matter what.  The Imperial/American units
really bug me, in spite of the fact that I deal in them daily, it's easier
for me to use the metric system for Traveller.  The bindings on my books
seem to be fine, even on BTC, which gets the heavist us by far.

Those are my problems with GURP: Traveller.  I have a couple of problems
with GURPS itself, mostly concerning the pacing of combat and the large
number of advantages that seem to duplicate one another.

>I think you plonked him anyways.  

Nope, just ignoring him on the TML.  Right now, I don't have anyone in the
killfile and the only subject I'm killing is the Debate thread which I'm
really not interested in.

Sorry for the bitter tone, but I'm having a really bad week.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

"We were the perfect partners.
Her life was out of a Norman Rockwell painting;
mine was out of a Tim Burton movie."
                          -"Law & Order"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:23:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

At 06:28 PM 2/25/99 -0000, you wrote:

>You'll be wanting my World Builder Deluxe software.

Will it run on Win3.x?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:21:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

At 03:00 PM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

>For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
>intercourse, in a rather crude manner (ie. "f**k").

Amusing story.

Last summer we had some friends form Australia visit for two weeks.  First
time in America, so we did the full tour of San Francisco, including going
to a Giants-Dodgers (spit) game.  For those of you who are not baseball
fans, there is a traditional called the seventh inning stretch.  Halfway
through the seventh inning, as the teams are changing sides, everyone
stands up and sings "Take Me Out To The Ballgame."

One of the lines is:

"So it's root, root, root for the hometeam..."

Imagine our shock when our friends went purple and explodied laughing.
Once they could breathe again, they explained how "root" is used as verb
down under.

Kirsten and I can't sing that song anymore, and I understand they have a
new code-word for sex.  "Care for a seventh-inning stretch, love?"
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry            dberry@hooked.net 
   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html   

"I'm just like anybody else, I want to be a non-conformist too." 
                                     -Lenny Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:18:44 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

"> >He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>
> Nothing.

"Ahem.  It's this same attitude that manifested w/ IG at first.  Unless GT
reverses its editing problems, IMO it'll end up in the same place as T4
after
the initial excitement wears down.  I, for one, hope it doesn't happen as
I'm
looking forward for GT to get done rehashing the LBBs and to get on w/
adventures and unveiling it's mysteries."

Steve Jackson Games does something that IG did not do; they CORRECT mistakes
in their books in subsequent printings. This is not cheap to do, by the way,
but they do it. Editing errors such as the missing stuff in BTC WILL be
corrected when the book is reprinted and meanwhile will be covered in freely
available errata. This is far more than IG ever did, and is why GT will not
go the way of T4. I am not advocating ignoring flaws in the products, but
the term "sucks", as I and most people I know have used it, goes beyond
minor complaints; if I were to say "Classic Traveller sucks", this implies a
far greater criticism than just saying "Classic Traveller has errors" or "I
don't like Classic Traveller."

Also, complaints about the physical qualities of the books are not
universal. I have both a softcover and hardcover copy, which has stood up to
repeated openings, closing and game use just fine. SOME people are having
problems with their copies, not ALL people, and has been noted, SJ Games
will replace those books; they have done so with other GURPS books for me; I
once got a Bestiary missing one chapter and repeating another; they replaced
it.

The problem is not the question per se. The problem as has been stated
before is Clif's RESPONSE to that question. It was offensive, uncalled for,
and happens all too often.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:53:08 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

How does GT handle TAS membership?  As an advantage, presumably, but what
is the point cost and what are the benefits described in the book?


James

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:38:06 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Kenji wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Craig Barnett wrote:
>
> > barge and 8 ton fighter (I called it the Shtelfire; did
> > anybody else read Scott (2G) Kellogg's Zhodani fiction?).
>
> _Yes_.  And is anyone else wondering whether we'll ever get to
> read what happened after Part 3?

I've been waiting...and waiting...you get the picture.

I haven't seen a post from Scott for years. Is he still about at
all, or has he given Traveller up for good? Is there an answer?
Is is 42? I don't know... :)

> Kenji


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:45:25 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT Starmercs question

Having only just received Starmercs, I must say on initial perusal that
it appears pretty good, but I have a few questions that perhaps the
GURPS gurus can answer for me.

In the ironmongery section, energy banks for the different vehicles are
described as storting megajoules, rather than megawatt-seconds. Can this
be clarified?  I really want to clear this up for my Vehicles design
spreadsheet I'm tinkering with (the starship/beam/sensor design pages
are almost finished, and the sheet is now >500k in size!).

Thanks in advance.

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:49:55 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Reaction Drive Modules

These will be rare in the GT universe, but may be found in places where
reactionless drives have not been discovered, or can't be used for some
reason or other...


Reaction drives require no external power.

FISSION DRIVE:
TL      Spaces  Weight      Cost        Notes
- ----------------------------------------------
7       1       4.1666625   0.8333      333.333 cf access space,
                                        consumes 12820.5 gallons
Water/hour
                                        25641 pds/14.569 tons thust
8+      1       4.166625    0.8333      333.333 cf access space,
                                        consumes 5555.5 gallons
Water/hour
                                        55555 pds/31.565 tons thust

FUSION DRIVE:
TL      Spaces  Weight      Cost        Notes
- ----------------------------------------------
9       1       4.16665     0.8333      333.332 cf access space,
                                        consumes 3313.32 gallons
Water/hour
                                        165666 pds/94.128 tons thust
10+     1       4.1666625   0.8333      333.333 cf access space,
                                        consumes 6646.66 gallons
Water/hour
                                        332333 pds/188.826 tons thust



WORKSHEETS:

Component       #       TL  Weight      Volume      Cost        Power  
Notes
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fission Drive   25641   7   8333.325    499.9995    833332.5    0      
333.333 cf access space,
                                                                       
consumes 12820.5 gallons
                                                                       
Water/ hour
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                      8333.325    499.9995    833332.5    0
4.1666625 tons  1 spaces    0.8333 MCr
25641 pds/14.569 tons thust

Component       #       TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power Notes
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fission Drive   55555   8+  8333.25 499.995 833325  0     333.33 cf
access space,
                                                          consumes
5555.5 gallons
                                                          Water/ hour
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                      8333.25 499.995 833325  0
4.166625 tons   1 spaces    0.8333 MCr
55555 pds/31.565 tons thust


Component       #       TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fusion Drive    165666  9   8333.3  499.998 833330  0       333.332 cf
access space,
                                                            consumes
3313.32 gallons
                                                            Water/ hour
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                      8333.3  499.998 833330  0
4.16665 tons    1 spaces    0.8333 MCr
165666 pds/94.128 tons thust


Component       #       TL  Weight   Volume    Cost      Power Notes
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fusion Drive    332333  10+ 8333.325 499.9995  833332.5  0     333.333
cf access space,
                                                               consumes
6646.66 gallons
                                                               Water/
hour
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                      8333.325 499.9995  833332.5  0
4.1666625 tons  1 spaces    0.8333 MCr
332333 pds/188.826 tons thust


Fuel Tank Modules:
==================

Component           #       TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel Tank           3333    8+  333.3   499.95  166650  0       3333
gallons capacity
Ultralight Option   1       -   -   -   -   -
Self-Sealing Option 1       -   -   -   -   -
Collapsible Option  0       -   -   -   -   -
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          333.3   499.95  166650  0
0.16665 tons    1 spaces    0.1667 MCr
Carried weight (Water) = 28330.5 pds (16.096875 tons)
Carried weight (LHyd.) = 1933.14 pds (1.098375 tons)


Component           #       TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel Tank           3333    8+  83.325  499.95  1666.5  0       3333
gallons capacity
Ultralight Option   0       -   -       -       -       -
Self-Sealing Option 0       -   -       -       -       -
Collapsible Option  1       -   -       -       -       -      
Collapsed vol = 12.5 cf
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          83.325  499.95  1666.5  0
0.0416625 tons  1 spaces    0.0017 MCr
Carried weight (Water) = 28330.5 pds (16.096875 tons)
Carried weight (LHyd.) = 1933.14 pds (1.098375 tons)

YES. This is a collapsible fuel tank module suitable for use in cargo
holds (with water or LHyd), etc (stats for the option were drawn from
the excellent Vehicles additions by Lloyd on io.com. Each module when
collapsed takes up 1/40 of its loaded volume, so a 40 space collapsible
tank is only 1 space when collapsed. On the down side, stresses > 1.5G
can cause the tank to rupture (with predictable results), though this
isn't really a problem with the prevalence of artifical grav/grav
compensation and the generally slower acceleration of the ships that
would use this feature.


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:34:44 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Shivva Class Patrol Frigate (+ small craft)

Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> >I have a GT design for the Shivva I'd already done before the GT
> >Aliens book was published. Let me know if you want me to post it, I
> >think it's a better design than the one SJG did (though I'm biased, of
> >course) and is closer to the CT design. (It includes the 40 ton fuel
> >barge and 8 ton fighter (I called it the Shtelfire; did anybody else
> >read Scott (2G) Kellogg's Zhodani fiction?).
> 
> Please post this.  I have deckplans for a CT Shivva on my site, and
> would like to do a *better* GURPS traveller version based on
> my CT plans.
> 
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Here 'tis:

600ton Shivva class Patrol Frigate, Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 4 x Commo/Sensor, 3 x
 Engineering, 6 x Gunnery, 1 x Medical, 10 x Flight, 1 x Thought
 Police
 Total Crew = 28

Specifications:
 600ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Advanced Metal Armor, DR 500, PD 4, +9 size mod, 487.5681 MCr,
 80664 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Basic Stealth, Basic Emissions
 Cloaking, 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 2 Utility, 103
 Maneuver, 30 Powered Jump, 240 Jump Fuel (60 for Jump 1), 18
 Staterooms (18 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 1
 Sickbay, 4 Cargo, 1 TL 10 PESA scan 44 (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW
 Suite (DJ 12, AJ 12, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 x 50 tons
 capacity Vehicle Bay (50std Fuel Barge), 10 x 8 tons capacity
 Vehicle Bay (8std Shtelfire Light Fighter), 6 turrets - 3 Triple
 360Mj X-Ray Laser Turrets, 2 Triple Missile Turrets, 1 Triple
 Sandcaster Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 1937.05 tons, LMass 2732.05 tons (Estimated
 carried mass = 775 tons), EMass 1625.05 tons (less fuel), LMass
 2420.05 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0 km/h), Acceleration
 - 2.96G Empty, 2.1G Loaded, 3.53G Empty (less Fuel), 2.37G
 Loaded (less Fuel)

Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 10 PESA (in pop turret): 15.49 tons, 1.5 spaces, 24.4241 MCr
 Scan 44 in space, 300000 miles (482700 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 12, Area Jammer 12, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 0.53 tons, 0.5 spaces, 0.573 MCr, Internal Power

- ------------
50ton Zhodani Fuel Barge, Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Helm/Navigation, 1 x Commo/Sensor
 Total Crew = 2

Specifications:
 50ton Good Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull
 Materials, Advanced Metal Armor, DR 100, PD 4, +7 size mod,
 29.6315 MCr, 7695 HP, Basic Stealth, Basic Emissions Cloaking, 1
 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 6 Maneuver,
 30.5 Jump Fuel (0 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (3.8 hrs to
 process)

Performance:
 Jump 0, EMass 124.75 tons, LMass 124.75 tons, EMass 85.1 tons
 (less fuel), LMass 85.1 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 1712 mph
 (2755 km/h), Acceleration - 2.68G Empty, 2.68G Loaded, 3.93G
 Empty (less Fuel), 3.93G Loaded (less Fuel)

- ----------------
8ton Shtelfire class Light Space Fighter, Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Helm/Navigation/Commo/Sensor
 Total Crew = 1

Specifications:
 8ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull
 Materials, Advanced Metal Armor, DR 100, PD 4, +6 size mod,
 20.0761 MCr, 2268 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 1 Hardened Cockpit Bridge, 5 Maneuver, 2 spaces for
 fixed weapons - 1 360Mj X-Ray Laser (Fixed), 1 Missile (Fixed)

Performance:
 Jump 0, EMass 64.32 tons, LMass 64.32 tons, EMass 64.32 tons
 (less fuel), LMass 64.32 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0
 km/h), Acceleration - 4.33G Empty, 4.33G Loaded, 4.33G Empty
 (less Fuel), 4.33G Loaded (less Fuel)


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:23:11 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Stuart Ferris posted:
>
>Scott Spieker wrote:-
>
>.>Ok,
> >Now that we have gotten a few bites on the idea of the web sector,
> >what about a fast easy way of using the world builder's handbook?
> >Does anyone know of any software that can that the UPP of the 
> >system/main planet and transcribe that information into human 
> >readable text?
> >A spreadsheet or anything else would be greatly appreciated.
>
>You'll be wanting my World Builder Deluxe software. It generates
> extended details from a UWP based on the rules contained in
> the World Builder's Handbook. It also generates Encounter Tables,
> Psionic Instititutes details and Economic details. The program will
> automatically create Extended World Details for an entire Sector
> using standard SEC files.

Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
output from Stuart's software and the results are
fantastic.

With these two packages, a GM can create a _highly_
detailed *sector* in about 2.5 hours. Details include
orbital path maps of all bodies in each star system,
main world temperature charts, encounter charts,
ground and space military organizations, population
profiles, economic profiles, and technological
profiles by industry.

I'm talking building something like the Spinward
Marches from scratch with all the details from 
World Builders' Handbook, Psionic Institutes, and
Imperial Fleets for _every_ system in *2.5 hours*.

YMMV depending on how fast you can link Stuart's
output files to the appropriate systems in
Galactic 2.4. In the space of one weekend, you
can build enough star system background for
a multi-year (realtime) Traveller campaign.

Spend 4 weekends on it, and we're talking an
entire *Domain*!

And to top it all off, both software packages are
free and both Jim and Stuart appreciate and
listen to feedback.

People, it can't get better than this. The *only*
downside is both packages are for the PC only.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:18:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Starmercs question

Craig Barnett writes:
> Having only just received Starmercs, I must say on initial perusal that
> it appears pretty good, but I have a few questions that perhaps the
> GURPS gurus can answer for me.
> 
> In the ironmongery section, energy banks for the different vehicles are
> described as storting megajoules, rather than megawatt-seconds. Can this
> be clarified?  I really want to clear this up for my Vehicles design
> spreadsheet I'm tinkering with (the starship/beam/sensor design pages
> are almost finished, and the sheet is now >500k in size!)

Megajoules and megawatt-seconds are the same thing.  Still, it probably should
have been changed to be megawatt-seconds, for consistency with standard
Vehicles usage.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:30:14 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Temporarily unsubscribing

Hate to do this, but you guys generate *way* too much mail to just let it
build up while I'm at sea.  Back in a week or few....


James

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:36:13 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:53:54 -0500, AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	Hey,  in the MT universe Strephon didn't die either, he was elsewhere and his
>double died.

Well, yes, but except for Strephon, and later Norris, nobody knew
this for sure.  Treat my statement about Strephon dying in the
TNE line as being shorthand for the attempted assassination and
all of the following events in that timeline, and "Strephon's
Assassination" in terms of the POD to refer to Dulinor's
murdering of the double.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:27:11 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

In a message dated 2/25/99 5:52:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alasdair.maciain@snet.net writes:

<< How does GT handle TAS membership?  As an advantage, presumably, but what
 is the point cost and what are the benefits described in the book?
  >>
 I did notice that in GT TAS membership costs 1 Mcr per YEAR not a 1 Mcr 1
time initiation fee!
Yikes!

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:39:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software?  

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Or, if you have a Mac, my Metator software (www.bits.org.uk).

Actually at http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/RPS.html

The page got knackered when I rebuilt the BITS site and lost some of the
graphics. I need to get my archive CD out and restore it, but you can
download Metator there. It will probably transfer to the main BITS pages
soon, or I may rebuild 'cybergoths' completely.

Metator is an excellent program, hopefully(ie I hope) the next after the
full release of IGS2.

Rob, sorry the page is bollixed.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:45:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Metator restored

Dear all,

I just restored the graphics section deleted from my website, so the link
to Rob's Metator program should work now. Hopefully I'll do a major revamp
this weekend if I get a few minutes.

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/RPS.html

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:22:50 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]   The Old Marquis 4 resp Solomani Sam 2

My dear Samuel,

	You have proposed an Imperium-wide Congress with 788 representatives each
representing 20 billion people.   This you would call a "democratic system."
Just how responsible can a representative be to 20 billion people on a dozen
worlds?  This would be even more of an oligarchy than the Athenian system you
label with that term.   In Athens, even if you could not vote, you had access
to hundreds of people every day who actually made the laws and spent the
public money.  In your system, sure every few years everyone who can breathe
and walk around could cast a vote, but what is it's impact among 20 billion
others?  Presumably, based on past examples, illiterates, the feebleminded and
the mad would also be allowed to vote, thus diluting further the votes cast.
	How much more responsive is a noble, sitting on planet, whose children,
grandchildren and other descendants, most of whom will not inherit a noble
patent, he will expect to live on the world and reap the results of his
policies, than a politician, sitting in a distant Senate, whose only thought
is the next election!  A republic of some sorts is fine for a local continent
or perhaps a whole world, but the shear staggering size of our Imperium makes
one absolutely, of necessity, unresponsive and unrepresentative in any real
sense.  
	
				The Old Marquis

P.S.  That old terran 2-D vid was a slander to old Crassus, by the way.
Crassus in fact restored much of the powers stripped away from the common
people by Sulla, such as the tribune's right of veto.   It was only Crassus
that kept Pompey and Caesar from attempting to seize sole power as long as
they did.  But, the enemy of Spartacus just HAD to be the worst guy
imaginable, don't you know.  Finally, your quotation was put in the mouth of a
man named Gracchus, who was the "people's champion" in the movie, but was in
fact dead 60 years before the Spartacus revolt.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:56:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

This was noted in the errata almost immediately...it is still a one time
1 MCr fee.

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/25/99 5:52:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> alasdair.maciain@snet.net writes:
> 
> << How does GT handle TAS membership?  As an advantage, presumably, but what
>  is the point cost and what are the benefits described in the book?
>   >>
>  I did notice that in GT TAS membership costs 1 Mcr per YEAR not a 1 Mcr 1
> time initiation fee!
> Yikes!
> 
>         Dave Nelson

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #201
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 202



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)
Congradulations!
Re: Pyramid
Re: Cultural Differences
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: GURPS and Metrics
Re: GT Starmercs question
Re: GURPS Task system
Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society
Re: Duelling Shipyards
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #196
Re: GURPs Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Clif-Proof Weaponry
RE: Lancer again
Re: Web Sector
What type of ship is it?
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
WebSector Working Group (was World Building software? / WebSector)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:57:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 07:58 AM 2/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >BTW, "normal conversational English" varies by area.  We Puritans in
> >New England do not talk thus and are shocked when Ye speaketh such. ;-)
> 
> For a full 15 seconds I considered translating the original question into
> Flaming Fairy, the offcial language of Castro.  Also known as "let's be gay
> for the Tourists talk."

Awww, come on... we're all tourists at heart.  

Besides, it would be handy to have a sample of Duke Norris' unedited
speech style.

<blowing hopefully on old smouldering coals>

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:03:39 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Congradulations!

I bumped into an old English teacher at Grand Central today.
Literally.  At the time, I was reading printouts of the Debate
articles, and ran smack into him, dropping the paper.  He helped
me pick it up, and read one or two in the process.  I never
though I would see this man so near tears.

His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
why can't I get my students interested in it?"
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:45:22 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

>
>Guess things are different down South in the 'Land of the Fee' :-)


At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax thingy is
hardly even noticed.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:26:06 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:56:48 -0500, "Douglas E. Berry"
<dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Imagine our shock when our friends went purple and explodied laughing.
>Once they could breathe again, they explained how "root" is used as verb
>down under.

>Kirsten and I can't sing that song anymore, and I understand they have a
>new code-word for sex.  "Care for a seventh-inning stretch, love?"

You owe me a keyboard.  I got cranberry juice in this one, and
it's ALL YOUR FAULT!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:28:32 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:56:48 -0500, "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:

>Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
>I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
>output from Stuart's software and the results are
>fantastic.

Now that you've sung its praises from the Solomani Rim to the
Vargr Extents, _where_do_I_GET_the_bloody_thing_?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:37:08 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GURPS and Metrics

J Alan Hatcher wrote:
> I believe it said in GT that the European versions of GURPS are
> published using the metric system.  Can anyone on the list from
> Europe confirm this?  If it's true then I suppose it should be
> possible to acquire these versions from European distributors.

My version (from UK) is _not_ metric.



> In the GURPS campaigns I've played in, we just assumed yards
> were meters for combat and such.  


That works for 'dramatic' situations where  distances  are  loose
definitions ... but designing grav tanks using GURPS Vehicles can
be a real pain.  There units are  more  precise,  and  having  to
convert everything from yesteryear's units to today's as well  is
tedious.

Trivia: So-called 15mm scale deck plans use  half  inch  squares,
while 25mm scale deck plans use one  inch  squares.  So  I  guess
that means that 2 x 15 = 25 !!!



Regards PLST

"The universe ... the ultimate violation of the law of
Conservation of Matter/Energy!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:34:52 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GT Starmercs question

Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com> writes:
>In the ironmongery section, energy banks for the different vehicles are
>described as storting megajoules, rather than megawatt-seconds. Can this
>be clarified?  I really want to clear this up for my Vehicles design
>spreadsheet I'm tinkering with (the starship/beam/sensor design pages
>are almost finished, and the sheet is now >500k in size!).

Same thing.

Joules are energy, watts are power. Multiply power by time and you have
energy, so a watt-second is the same thing as a joule.

(Talk about coincidence - I just taught that this morning!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:39:59 -0700
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task system

Eris reddoch wrote:
> 
> Clay _ wrote:
> > I also use a chart with the same numbers to determine the degree of
> > success (i.e. making a roll by 3 is an extra degree of success while
> > making the roll by 6 is two extra degrees of success).
> 
> Could you expand on how you use degrees of success in your games?
> 
> Eris

Here is my task system.  It is, as always, work in progress so feedback
would be appreciated.
GURPS Task System
Task Levels	Modifier	Auto
Very easy	+6		10
Simple	 	+3		13
Routine		+1		15
Standard	0		16
Involved	-1		17
Difficult	-3		19
Ambitious	-6		22
Formidable	-9		25
Absurd		-12		28
Near-Impossible	-18		31

Auto is the minimum skill for automatic success at a normal level.  This
is to make the task system semi-diceless.  The player can always opt to
roll with the full range of success or failure.

Success Degrees		Target	Degree	Notes
Absolute Failure	-6	-3	things are now worse from the attempt.(UM 18)

Total Failure		-3	-2	failure, no doubt about	it. Check determination.

Partial Failure		-1	-1	almost successful but bears no fruit.

Marginal Success	+-0	0	the attempt works just barely.

Adequate Success	+1	+1	normal level of success.

Complete Success	+3	+2	success with a competitive edge.

Exceptional Success	+6	+3	success well beyond the norm.

Phenomenal Success	+12	+4	critical success. (UM 3)
* The damage system is still being worked out.  The system will
determine damage based on the degree of success.

Degrees of success are used in some contests of skill, uncertain tasks,
as well as any task that needs a sort of 'yardstick'.

Uncertain Tasks: Both the GM and the player roll vs. the skill.  The GM
compares the degrees of success in both rolls.   If both degrees are
positive or negative then take the more extreme of the two.  If the
degrees are opposite in polarity then add them.  This will determine the
actual degree of success.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:46:54 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain wrote:
> 
> How does GT handle TAS membership?  As an advantage, presumably, but what
> is the point cost and what are the benefits described in the book?
> 
> James

Actually, it appears to be handled in the same way as equipment:  it's
something you buy.  Similarly, the reference to the GM awarding it to
PCs is not quantified, as Advantages are.  (Presumably the GM would
award TAS membership to military PCs in much the same way that he/she/it
would "award" profits to a successful merchant PC.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:31:06 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Duelling Shipyards

"Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net> writes:
>My, there seems to have been a sudden explosion of GURPS Traveller
>shipbuilding programs :) Two freeware, one shareware...any more that I
>missed?

Don't think so.
>
>Just shows to go ya what enthusiasm a nice, simple, MODULAR ship
>construction system can produce :)

Actually, given that Thomas has been waiting six months for his license, I
think that it just goes to show what happens when a company finally gets
serious about their licensing. 

I'm lucky, it only took me two months to settle everything, and thanks to
Reese, Steve, and Marc being willing to discuss matters by email we were
able to get the legal issues of a product licensed for a licensed product
sorted out without trouble, even with the added complication of a British
company distributing a Canadian product licensed from an American company.

Anyway, now the SJG has got their licensing back on track, I suspect
you'll see more products soon.


Hm, it might be a good idea if authors would post what they're working on,
so that we don't end up with accidental duplication. Personally, if I knew
that a good author was working on a shipyard program for my computer
platform, I'd work on something else. While this doesn't seen to affect me
('cause I think I'm the only Mac programmer here), it does affect the PC
types.  (Actually, it also affects me, because I _sell_ my software, so
less point in my arranging for a PC port if there's another product out
there.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:52:49 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #196

> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:16:39 -0500
> From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
> Subject: Duelling Shipyards
> 
> My, there seems to have been a sudden explosion of GURPS Traveller
> shipbuilding programs :) Two freeware, one shareware...any more that I
> missed?

I've had a speadsheet done since November last year, which has now been
expanded with GURPS Vehicles rules to allow for alternate hulls (per GT
rules), modules for all TLs (8-13), beam and sensor/EW design pages,
etc.  Ultimately it will also have complete Vehicles design options so I
can whack together any type of GURPS Vehicle.

Unfortunately, one look at the contract required with SJG discouraged me
from releasing the whole kit as freeware (like Andrew's FFS2 sheet)...Ah
well...at least _I_ can use it :)

> Just shows to go ya what enthusiasm a nice, simple, MODULAR ship
> construction system can produce :)

I like it..I also like the option of using Vehicles design rules.

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:13:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPs Traveller

Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:45:00 -0500, "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
>My suggestion is to go borrow the GURPS basic book from someone you know or
>take a long read of it in your FLGS.

My suggestion is to down load the free "lite" version (maybe even
play a game with it) and see if you like it.  That will tell you
more than any persons individual likes and dislikes....

[I must say, the idea that you _have_ to buy so many books
is amusing to those of us who had no problem playing the game
before they were even thought off...]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:28:08 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:48:56 -0500, "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
>2. Combat is deadly; combat is bad.  Remember that scene in
> Twilight's Peak where the fire from the Zhodani is supposed
> to drive you into the Ancient base?  Well, you're either
> afraid or dead in GURPS.

The point is that it is intended to be done realistically.
The Zhodani should open fire from some distance (so they
have a decent chance of missing).  The characters then dive
into the hole as shots land around them (like in the movies :-)

At least that is what I did when I ran the adventure under
GURPS rules...

Regarding canon stuff.  GURPS didn't try and match every
thing exactly how the CT rules did (otherwise there is no
point in a new set of rules).  However, the authors were
well aware of Traveller material (they are have almost all
been either ex-GDW writters or long time players themselves).
There have been a few judgement calls about what to keep
from canon (which have been the subject of some debate in
playtest...)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:58:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:48:25 -0600, Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
>The fix for that is to develop
>some Traveller style Career systems for GT...and that is a Staggering
>task! ;->

They published one of these in Pyramid....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:45:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:25:37 +0200 (EET DST), Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>

> Maybe halving the cost of ST and
> HT might work?

You can lower the cost of ST, though it turns out not to be a big
deal either way...

However, HT is deceptive.  You don't roll against it that often,
but when you do (like when you want to see if you are going to die
from that wound) it is important.  My players all gave HT a sort
shrift until a few of them died...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:27:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Clif-Proof Weaponry

Ah, right!  Then the bolt assembly while in the bolt carrier became a
"deadbolt" keeping the action from being broken open.  (And to think I used
to own an AR-15A2 Delta HBAR...  I know one thing, I could still
disassemble/assemble one, even if I didn't remember the names for the
parts.)

- --Clif


>That's be the bolt assembly Clif :)  The bolt assembly then resides in the
>bolt carrier.
>Jesse
>
>
>
>>>However, a sufficiently talented idiot can break any weapon system.
>>>
>>Myself being a case in point.  I forgot to put the buffer spring in the
>>stock of an M-16A1 in A.I.T., when I charged the weapon the... man, I've
>>forgotten the term...but the piece that houses the firing pin jammed back
>in
>>the stock.  This also prevented breaking the weapon open to free it.  I
>>botched it good.  I seem to recall a scene where the weapon's barrel was
>>being bashed into the floor by a Drill Sergeant in hopes that gravity
would
>>free the firing pin housing.
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:29:08 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Lancer again

Dear Folks -

Joseph said:
>DGP's figures are suspect*, but here is the pertinant info on the Lancer:
>RPY-15 Rapid Pulse Fusion Gun x 1

Errata: RFY-15 (minor quibble, really! Funnily enough, TNE used RPY for
these weapons!  ;-)

>TL-13 Beam Laser (25 MW power req.) x 1 (maybe x 2, since there are 3
>gunners).

I agree, two lasers, going on the illo - appears to be a waist-mounted gun
on the starboard side, you can assume the same on the port.

>Passengers=25

Actually that's an infantry section of *24* trooops.

It also has almost every sensor in the book.

>*One of the main gripes I have about 101 Vehicles are that the vehicles
>described therein are just too big for their corresponding illustrations
>(and in many cases, their described functions).

Hadn't noticed that, but I agree.

The (absolutely excellent!) RCVG dose it much better. I remember now that I
flipped between the heavy grav tank and the Norris a few times, just to try
and get a handle on the size difference. However, the thirty-ton recovery
sled takes the prize - it fits AROUND the 20-ton heavy tank! (Aside: does
anyone else think the sled bears a vague resemblance to Thunderbird 2?!!
;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:32:54 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

Hope someone is keeping track of all of this so that jump links can be
directed to the correct URLs.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Web Sector


>At 10:22 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> As for sectors.  The Rob and I have talked about Deneb, out on the
>>rimward side.  Rob had tentatively selected Atsah (2913), and I had
>>selected Doho (2813) to begin working on.
>
>I'll try and work on Vincennes.  Granted, some of it was done in MTJ, but I
>have a few TL-16 designs that I'd love to post, and this would be a great
>reason.
>
>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>kurt@blazenet.net
>Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
>WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
>
>Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
>single-handedly move the world.
>--- Archimedes ---
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:34:56 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: What type of ship is it?

I'm working on another set of deckplans.

1000 Tons
(900 main hull + two 50 ton cutters)

Basic Shape:

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/Fin.gif

I'm looking for HG stats to apply to this beast.

As always: comments desired.
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:41:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

I've got a transcript he gave me:

Interrogator:  "Now, you want summore o' that?"

Subject:  "No, no!  I'll tell you whatever you wanna know,
just--please--don't throw me in the briar patch!"

Interrogator:  "I don't think you're being sincere."

<Blood-curdling pathetic screams and whimpering from a living piece of roast
beef.>
- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)


>
>
>Black ICE wrote:
>
>> ObTrav:  During gaming sessions, I prefer not to handle the
>> interrogation of captured NPCs (after all, I see no point in taking my
>> work into a gaming session).  I prefer to watch my fellow players
>> attempt to question said prisoners, and only step in after they have
>> failed to gain any useful information.  (I do make sure to have an
>> interrogation-related skill, so that I can question prisoners
>> in-character.)
>
>Now *this* I would like to see!
>
>You must share the dialogue with us the next time this happens.
>An invaluable GM resource when the players are beinginterrogated.
>;-)
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:45:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

How about a URL on that?

- --Clif
>Nope, they're up on my site. Also K9, with stats for CT and "Trav-as-AD&D".
>;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:50:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)

> If you are a Pyramid subscriber, check out:
> http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?462

And if you are NOT a subscriber, see exactly the same at

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?462

since that article is provided free. ;->

Check also

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?444

for a free G:T adventure.

>Ah, don't try to look for these two goodies on the Free Samples link
of the Pyramid page, for some reason they are not there...

***I wonder if you can access every article without paying if you substitute
"sample" for "login/article" before  ".cgi?XXX"  ?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:58:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

>He _didn't_ say  :
>"Yo muthafuckers, which of you zoned-out crackheads is going to tell
>me why GT should be inserted sideways up Clinton's ass?"
>
LOL!  You mean I "didn't think of it."  : )

>Basically, the people complaining about Cliff need to grow up, get a
>life, and realize they're not in kindergarten anymore, and that the
>TML is a forum for people to discuss things related to Traveller, not
>a discussion group for Mrs Beatson's Guide to Etiquette,  Mannerly
>Living, and the One Hundred and One Things a True Lady Should Not  Be
>Seen Doing In Public
>


Psst!  Here's that $10 I promised you...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:06:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

Presumptuous pessimistic prophesying.

- --Clif

>We will never see the likes of him again.
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:19:34 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: WebSector Working Group (was World Building software? / WebSector)

> 
> I would certainly be interested in being involved in the Websector project.
> I have been working with a few other TML members, Derrick Jones, Tom Bont
> with the goal of creating a standardised extended file format for world,
> system, subsectors and sectors. Perhaps we should set up a working group to
> discuss it further?
> 
> Stuart Ferris
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Stuart,
	I am sure that I speak for all of those interested in the WebSector
project, by saying that we would be happy to add you and your expertise
to the effort.

	I will setup a mailing list for this project on ONEList.com.  I will
then send the invitation to this list for anyone else who may be
interested.  I don't mind being the list owner/operator, but I do not
want to be the project's front man.  This really should be a group
effort, and not have one (extremly) busy man to be at the forefront when
I could be pulled out for any number of reasons.

	Don't get me wrong, but I am very interested in seeing this project
succeed; I also want to be a contributor to the effort, but I cannot
commit to any heavy project management functions at the moment.  Once I
do have my pipe for the ISP business, I will also offer the function of
hosting all of this project as well as anything else others would like
to be hosted as well - As long as it is traveller related.

	I think that it would be a monumental effort to get things centralized
on one server, or at least mirrored.  That would certainly make HIWG CD
creation a great deal easier as well.  We should be able to start that
side project on or before May 1 1999.  The ISP company os a tier 2
provider, hooked directly to the largest and most stable internet
backbone in the industry - UUNet!  There will be more about this when we
get closer to turn up time.

Thanks for your help,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #202
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 203



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: websector
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: Prissy aunts of the TML
Re: GURPS and Metrics
Re: tanks
Invitation to join WebSector@onelist.com
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)
Re: Congradulations!
Extended Trav file formats
Re: WebSector
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)
Re: GURPS and Metrics
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society
Re: [Debate]   Solomani Sam  Resp The Old Marquis 4 resp Solomani Sam 2
Re: Pyramid
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)
TCS Campaign needs player
Re: Pyramid
Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Bradley vs M113

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:30:25 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: websector

Dear Folks -

Rob wrote:
>and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
>how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...

Put ../ in front of the file name, as required.

For example, Scott's left-hand frame contains the following code:
<BODY  BACKGROUND="../Tab_bg.gif" LINK="#0000FF" VLINK="#990000"
TEXT="#000000" TOPMARGIN=0 LEFTMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0>

This indicates (among other things!) that the background gif is in the
previous (higher) directory. If you like, take a look thru my Library Data
to see how my links are structured. My site map goes something like this:
     /libdata
          /alphabet
               /a
                    aslan.htm
               /b
               :
               /z
          /pictures
               /libdata
                    aslan.gif

To get aslan.gif to display in aslan.htm, the reference in aslan.htm is:
     <IMG SRC="../../pictures/libdata/aslan.gif" ALIGN=LEFT>

That is, go up one level to /alphabet, up another level to /libdata, then
back down through /pictures and /libdata to find the picture!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:20:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

Cool!  Does it shoot strands of glass fiber rapid fire?  That would be
wicked-mean!  If a strand of fiber gets deep enough, it'll cause
hemorhaging, for sure, and will be VERY difficult to locate (by today's
standards, unless the Doc's follow the blood on an X-ray...)

NOW I'm thinking.... >: )

- --Clif

>(And, just to show folks that size really doesn't matter, soon I'll be
>posting my design for a highly lethal 0.1mm gauss rifle!)
>
>Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:27:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy aunts of the TML

>Great. another pinheaded jerk. I won't have to unsub after this, because
>I'll probably be KICKED off.
>
>
>>He _didn't_ say  :
>>"Yo muthafuckers, which of you zoned-out crackheads is going to tell
>>me why GT should be inserted sideways up Clinton's ass?"
>
>
>It takes far less intelligence than your average igneous rock to talk like
>this.
>
It may not take scientific intelligence but it sure takes abstract
intelligence.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:33 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GURPS and Metrics

..
>> I believe it said in GT that the European versions of GURPS are
>> published using the metric system.  Can anyone on the list from
>> Europe confirm this?  If it's true then I suppose it should be
>> possible to acquire these versions from European distributors.
>
>My version (from UK) is _not_ metric.

  IIRC it was clarified that they meant that _if_ a non-English language
European edition was done (e.g., German) then it would use metric. At the
time some of us thought they were referring to a UK version and asked if
we could get that instead of the US one :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:35:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: tanks

>Not PC right now. : )  Besides, giving the current financial considerations
>they're even talking of removing large groups of personnel from HEAT/MPAT
and
>"tank like targets" from sabot rounds.  Use machine guns for personnel is
what
>we're being told now.  Not a problem w/ the main gun.  Just lacks the round
>and many argue we don't need it.

And soldiers who knew that they could save their ass using a big weapon
would opt to save money, instead?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:37:28 -0500 (EST)
From: scspieker@ncweb.com
Subject: Invitation to join WebSector@onelist.com

Hello,

I would like to invite you to join the WebSector mailing list.

The description of this mailing list is:

WebSector is a multi user/developer effort for designing and producing detailed
worlds for the Science Fiction Role Playing Game of Traveller. WebSector's
mailing list is being hosted by ONEList.com and is a non-moderated list. Content
and messages should remain focused on the effort(s) of the WebSector project.

You can join this list by going to the following web page:

     http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/WebSector

If you do not wish to join this list, please ignore this message.


Thanks,

scspieker@ncweb.com
List Owner

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:52:35 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)

Despite the fact I basically agree w/ the starter of this thread;
 _THAT_ is the real TML answer!!! (esp from the good Duke's own mouth -
hey, those who worship need words to follow!)

Yo Kenji! Keep us all honest!
(FIFI if you don't get it)

William


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:57:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 07:58 AM 2/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >BTW, "normal conversational English" varies by area.  We Puritans in
> >New England do not talk thus and are shocked when Ye speaketh such. ;-)
> 
> For a full 15 seconds I considered translating the original question into
> Flaming Fairy, the offcial language of Castro.  Also known as "let's be gay
> for the Tourists talk."

Awww, come on... we're all tourists at heart.  

Besides, it would be handy to have a sample of Duke Norris' unedited
speech style.

<blowing hopefully on old smouldering coals>

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:55:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span? 

And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?

- --Clif

> I never
>though I would see this man so near tears.
>
>His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
>why can't I get my students interested in it?"
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:05:11 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Extended Trav file formats

Count me in!  I'd like to contribute to ideas to extend the sector data format.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:11:58 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector

Ok, let's collect our wits.

The idea so far is to re-create the X-boat route, starting in the
Deneb sector.  There are lots of neat things we can do, including
using perl-cgi scripts to interface with a central database for
fetching routing information, automatic star system generation
software, etc.

I think what we need right now, however, is a Very Simple
proof of concept.  Might I suggest a hand-detailed page of
basic system information, including hard-coded links to the
xboat route neighbors?  The fun stuff can be attached at leisure;
but let's just get something up now.  Is that okay?  If we get
enough volunteers, we can string our sites out across Deneb,
into the Marches, Corridor, and Reft...

Keep those ideas coming.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:31:20 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

>Presumptuous pessimistic prophesying.
>
>--Clif



Just proves clif's lack of grey matter. There WILL not ever be a man like
Hathcock.
Too bad he could not have taken one last shot.

tv

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:58 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)

Dear Folks -

Jeff wrote:
>His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
>why can't I get my students interested in it?"

Tell him to read the commentary that is "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance".
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:08:48 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GURPS and Metrics

Dear Folks -

Peter wrote:
>Trivia: So-called 15mm scale deck plans use  half  inch  squares,
>while 25mm scale deck plans use one  inch  squares.  So  I  guess
>that means that 2 x 15 = 25 !!!

Yep, this is a _pain_, as 15mm figures look way too big on all the
published "15mm" deckplans (ditto the 25mm). I resorted to drawing things
on 5mm grid sheets (readily available over here, don't know about the US or
UK!).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:27:56 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Dear Folks -

Clif asked for a URL. The URL is part of my tagline (below). Since I use
frames as a navigation tool, I don't point people directly to a page, just
to the site.

For "Traveller as AD&D" and "The K-9 Papers", select "Hyphen's Traveller
Pages" and scroll down. For humour, you can also check out the latest
updates to the "Taglines" page, including the "Sniper" series.
;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:40:12 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

At 12:28 AM 2/25/99 , Doug Berry wrote:
>At 11:45 PM 2/25/99 +1300, you wrote:
>>I'm utterly flabbergasted at the flak Cliff's getting for his question
>>about Gurps Traveller
>>
>>He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>
>Nothing.
>
>Does that mean that GT has no problems?  No.  I dislike Imperial
>measurements.  That does no "suck" however.  It's a minor annoyment.  The
>system questions are fairly irrelevent to me, since I use CORPS.
>
>For a good example of a Traveller product that does "suck", try Emperor's
>Vehicles, or First Survey.

Ok put FFS2 on the list of Traveller products that suffer from extreme 
levels of negative pressure, too.


Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:54:55 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

In a message dated 2/25/99 3:37:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< I did notice that in GT TAS membership costs 1 Mcr per YEAR not a 1 Mcr 1
 time initiation fee!
 Yikes! >>

SJG errata atributed to the TML corrected this back to a one time fee....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:53:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]   Solomani Sam  Resp The Old Marquis 4 resp Solomani Sam 2

In a message dated 2/25/99 3:52:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< P.S.  That old terran 2-D vid was a slander to old Crassus, by the way.
 Crassus in fact restored much of the powers stripped away from the common
 people by Sulla, such as the tribune's right of veto.   It was only Crassus
 that kept Pompey and Caesar from attempting to seize sole power as long as
 they did.  But, the enemy of Spartacus just HAD to be the worst guy
 imaginable, don't you know.  Finally, your quotation was put in the mouth of
a
 man named Gracchus, who was the "people's champion" in the movie, but was in
 fact dead 60 years before the Spartacus revolt.  
 
  >>
quite true; I had forgotten that the holovids' creators had taken "liberties"
with the historical facts. This was rampant in 20th Century (old Solomani
calender reckoning...) entertainment vids. I do stand by the spirit of the
quote though....

As for the 20 billion size representatives being unworkable; then there is
only one alternative; Decentralization. Delegate as much working power as
possible to as low a level as possible. Think of it as an Archduke-Domain
style of governance, but with the leaders elected, instead of being appointed
by the Emperor. Try to keep as much action decision-making, and policy
enforcement at the sector and sub-sector level as possible, and leave major
policy-making to the Domain governors (such as maintaining the Imperial fleets
in the sector). Thus the Imperial senate and President would just have to
concentrate on macro-policy at the Imperial level, and making sure that the
Domains (who in turn oversee the sectors who oversee the subsectors, etc...)
don't violate the Imperial constitution. Keeping as much power as local as
possible was the political philosophy of "States' rights". This was the failed
arguement of the "states rights" faction of the United States. The strong
central government faction was able to prevail once rapid communication made
its' presence felt. Since the Imperium doesn't have such rapid comminication,
perhaps the decentralised government of the "States rights" faction would be
more logical...

Solomani Sam

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:57:40 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/25/99 4:18:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
redroach@texed.net writes:

<< At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax thingy
is
 hardly even noticed.
  >>

Same here in Nevada, but we hate the sales tax...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:56:56 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/25/99 4:02:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jzeitlin@cyburban.com writes:

<< I bumped into an old English teacher at Grand Central today.
 Literally.  At the time, I was reading printouts of the Debate
 articles, and ran smack into him, dropping the paper.  He helped
 me pick it up, and read one or two in the process.  I never
 though I would see this man so near tears.
 
 His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
 why can't I get my students interested in it?"
 -- >>

that's a wonderful story, though I dread his reading mine and puking over the
typos and mispellings...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:06:31 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/25/99 6:59:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span? 
 
 And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?
 
 --Clif
 
 > I never
 >though I would see this man so near tears.
 >
 >His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
 >why can't I get my students interested in it?"
 >--
 >>

Clif; give the man a break. He was happy that somebody these days are talking
about political theory (ala The Federalist Papers). Comparing those debates
(and the people who wrote them) to the drivel spouted by both parties today is
like comparing a comic book to Shakespeare...BTW; have you been reading the
on-line Traveller psuedo "Federalist Papers" debate?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:36:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)

Dear Folks -

(I'm replying to my own reply - kind of sad, isn't it?  ;-)
>Jeff wrote:
>>His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
>>why can't I get my students interested in it?"

>Tell him to read the commentary that is "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance".

Actually, tell him to get his students to play Traveller. ;-)

No, really, if it's presented as a game, it may generate more student
interest. Set up the situation (maybe even as a freeform) and have both
sides argue it out.  A bit like setting up a mock courtroom or parliament -
I've heard reports of schools running events like this. Just make sure he
lets us know the results!

Over here, the current flavour-of-the-month is the republican debate. ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:52:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> ***I wonder if you can access every article without paying if you
substitute "sample" for "login/article" before  ".cgi?XXX"  ?
> 

Only the first coupla paragraphs.


==
___________________________________________________
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant

          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

         Now a proud member of Downport.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 0:07:16 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: TCS Campaign needs player

Alan Bradley, our oppressive Neubayern dictator :)
has had to bail on us.  So, we need a new Neubayern...

Please e-mail me if you are interested.


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:23:16 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/25/99 4:18:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> redroach@texed.net writes:
>
> << At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax thingy
> is
>  hardly even noticed.
>   >>
>
> Same here in Nevada, but we hate the sales tax...

 Naw man, the proper Nevada answer should be, No Income tax,
and no Texas...  8-)

or

Thanks California. ( A majority of the casino traffic is from Cal. and
the casinos pay the taxes )

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:27:19 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:29:06 -0500, steve daniels wrote:

> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> > I've played with several combat systems that included detailed hit
> > locations systems.  My conclusion is that they seem to slow down most
> > combats without adding that much.
> >
> > Among the better systems in total were HarnMaster, Millennium's End, and
> > CORPS.  Even these had problems, with ME's plastic sheets suffering all
> > sorts of abuse and they were expensive to replace!
> >
> > What I prefer is general body hits with increasing levels of difficulty if
> > you wish to target a specific location.
> 
> I tend to agree with you.  What does ACQ have?
> 
> Months ago, someone on TML had a quick and dirty way
> to do it.  IIRC, he used a bullseye overlay, with a roll to see
> exactly where you hit.  It was centered mid-torso if no location
> specified, otherwise, on the desired location.  It may have had
> diffent bullseyes for different body parts,
> 
> 
> If someone's got that, could you repost it?

That might have been me.  Except for a couple of posts in the last week, I
haven't posted since well before Christmas :)

The idea came from-- ugh-- Warhammer 40K.  Here's the skinny:

Take a square piece of clear plastic.  Divide it into a checkerboard
pattern with eleven squares along each side.  Along to top scribe the
numbers 2 thru 12, and do the same on the left side from top to bottom.
What you now have is a grid system that-- using two 2D6 dice rolls-- can
model (with a certain degree of accuracy) the deviation from the center
square [7,7].  2D6 works well because of the natural "bell curve".

The template would be placed over a silhouette of the target, bearing in
mind the aspect of the target character (a number of cards depicting
various aspects and silhouettes would be needed).  Aim for the head and you
have a good chance of firing high or to the sides, while an aimed shot to
the chest will have to deviate by quite a bit in order to completely miss.
You may have to experiment with the sizes of the template and the
silhouette cards.  To-Hit tasks may also need to be made slightly easier,
since most of the time grid coordinates resulting in "auto misses" would
exist.

Something along the lines of "the amount that the To-Hit task succeeded by
may be counted off to shift the actual grid results closer to the center of
the template" should also be included.  For example, if the character
succeeded in the task by 4 points and the target rolls were 11 across and 6
down (ie: grid location [11,6]), the player could count off four squares
down and arrive at location [7,6] or count off three squares down and one
right to arrive at location [8,7].  As long as the shifts moved the
coordinates closer to the center square [7,7], everything's legal.  Tiny
arrows could be included to dictate the various "legal" directions.

The trick would be to include these two 2D6 dice rolls into the game so
that they don't become "yet *another* dice roll task that slows down the
game".

Damn!  Doug, do you think it is too late to include this somehow in ACQ?
Of course, there'd be the added expense of the templates and silouettes...
nah, forget it.  We'll save it for the next supplement.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:28:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:30:30 +0000, Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

>>He asked how you UNjam an energy weapon.  Personally, I don't have a clue.

Reseat the contacts of the power cable?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:06:25 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> >The T-90 is another piece of trash, though they're finally going in the
right
> >direction.  As an aside, they'll probably never be able to produce enough
of
> >them to be any kind of threat (not that I consider a T-90 te be really much
> >better than a T-80).  The Ukranian T-84 is much better than the T-90 IMO.  
> 
> Hmm. It's got the standard Russian tank problems (duff autoloaders,
> terrible crew ergonomics). It's also got armour that will deflect a
> 120mm APFSDS-DU round (Kontact-5); and an anti-missile system to die
> for.

Maybe, but i'm dubious... the M829A3 is the silver bullet.  If they do survive
the hit, they're not going to be enjoying life much.   We have an MCD, though
I won't see one until there's a war.

I'm more talking bout the transmission, engine and speed issues.  Plus the
guns. We beat them on max eff range.

> >IMO, the BMP-3 is going on the other extreme from the M113.  The M2 is a
nice,
> >happy medium, though I don't respect the "IFV" concept much.  YMMV.
> 
> So where do you see the US going for the Bradley replacement? More IFV
> or back to basics?

The Bradleys biggest plus IMO is that does make a good companion to the
Abrams. It can keep up in both road march and combat ops, isn't overgunned
(giving illusions of a "real" anti-tank capability) though it does seem to
have an identity problem.  

The replacement?  Probably like the Bradley, due to the current budgetary and
political situation it'll get torn between two competing factions... the IFV
and APC crowds... and end up somewhere in the middle.  I don't really expect
replacements anytime soon though i've been hearing alot bout the M1A3
recently.  Haven't been keeping up w/ the latest hubbub, but have been hearing
alot bout an autoloaded 155mm w/ a new turret and a fire control system
supposedly as far above the M1s as the M1s is above the M60s (IVIS, GPS, CITV
too).  Not that the USMC (and thus me) will see them anytime soon even if the
army gets them within 10 years.

> MPAT looked to me (on the noddy diagram I saw) like a smart-fused HEAT.
> As you say, if you're trying to plink helos with a tank cannon then
> something is already badly wrong.

Yeah, but you know SNAFU.  Have to be prepared to adapt and respond.  :-)

> >> If you're busy with heavy armour, the supporting fire from a BMP-3 is
> >> more of a problem then from a -2.
> >
> >Won't be busy long, even w/ T-80s or T-90s, much less T-62s or T-72s.  :-)
> 
> Assuming that the next war will be similar to Desert Storm? Dangerous.
> Vilani thinking, even.

LOL.  nah.  Just being cocky.  ;-)  I ain't that arrogant, though am confident
I'd be able to plug any tank or 3 up against mine and trust my fellows to do
the same.

> >If they had heavy armor around, our tank units would be dueling them.  I
was
> >referring to the MBTs attached to an army armored cavalry troop (2
platoons,
> >though given the current levels, it might be one or even an "element" of 2
> >tanks).  IIRC, Warsaw Pact units didn't operate *that* way, though the
current
> >training focus isn't on the Russians anymore, but rather petty and lower
tech
> >types like Iraqis and North Koreans.
> 
> Tanks versus the enemy recce element isn't fair. Good news for your
> side, though.

No, it isn't, but it's not really really bout being fair, is it?  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #203
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 204



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Lancer again
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Trav mini's; Space:1999
Re: GT Shipyard now available
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Kewl hit location determination technique
Re: [Debate]  An Imperial Patriots Response 1 to Solomani Sam 2 resp to The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1
Re: Pyramid
Re: Pyramid
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)
[Debate]  The Old Marquis responds to the Imperial Patriot 1.
Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
[Debate]  The Old Marquis 5 responds to Solomani Sam 3
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re:  Congratulations!
Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society
Re: WebSector
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189
Re: T5 Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:07:00 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: RE: Lancer again

Also, thanx for the stats, if I didn't already, Joseph (Joe?), as I don't
think I did.

> Errata: RFY-15 (minor quibble, really! Funnily enough, TNE used RPY for
> these weapons!  ;-)

That's because RCVG defined it as Rapid Pulse fusion (lower case) <letter>
Gun.  fusion isn't included there.  :-)

> >TL-13 Beam Laser (25 MW power req.) x 1 (maybe x 2, since there are 3
> >gunners).
> 
> I agree, two lasers, going on the illo - appears to be a waist-mounted gun
> on the starboard side, you can assume the same on the port.

My question is why a TL-13 laser, though I'm not familiar w/ MT vehicle design
(and think there's probably no difference in such?).  I'll definately make it
a TL-15 vehicle, as RCVG indicates it would be.

As far as quantity, RCVG would seem to indicate the laser being singular.
Maybe the hatch is on the other side?  Symmetry would make more tactical sense
(as well as being more aesthetically pleasing).  Course the extra gunner
probably decides it in favor of 2...  Maybe have multiple models?  The initial
model was assymetrical and upgraded w/ a better one? :-)

> The (absolutely excellent!) RCVG dose it much better. I remember now that I
> flipped between the heavy grav tank and the Norris a few times, just to try
> and get a handle on the size difference. However, the thirty-ton recovery
> sled takes the prize - it fits AROUND the 20-ton heavy tank! (Aside: does
> anyone else think the sled bears a vague resemblance to Thunderbird 2?!!
> ;-)

That's why I don't have a problem w/ the Lancer being 20 dt.  It would
indicate the Imperium was going towards a 20dt standard (away from the 10dt
Trepida/Astrin).  

That does sound very very large, but i don't really have a problem with it.
We'd build things that big today if we could affordably get them to move fast
and be that capable.

I would tend to agree w/ RCVGs assessment that this vehicle has a big identity
crisis.  It's overpowered in the APC role and too expensive in both roles, w/
all that space for passengers being space that could be a bigger and more
powerful weapon (or secondary weapons) for the tank role alone.  Hmm... we
could be describing a BMP-3... ;-)  J/k.

Um... Thunderbird 2?  Sounds familiar, but can't seem to recall...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:06:51 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

> <concerning GURPS books falling apart>
> >be reviewing GT books very carefully from now on before I buy.

I didn't know they had that policy.  Good to know.  

Actually I was talking bout the content, though I see I failed to mention
that.  D'oh. email.  I need a psionic keyboard... anyone got one?  I want them
to get done w/ the initial set of books and start doing adventures and
unveiling the "mysteries" of G:T.  I'm not entirely convinced I'll ever get
this (well... what I really want is for *someone* to continue TNE, but that
doesn't look too hopeful), but I'm holding out hope (for both).

I'm might get Far Trader and and First In, though neither are decided firmly
until I see them.  The editing and binding are going to get special attn.  I
doubt First In can replace WTH and WBH, but I am gonna look it over at the
FLGS when they appear... i'd like to see the "latest take" on system design.
Far Trader... I am interested in a different take on some new
economics/trading rules.  Again look it over in the FLGS.  I haven't and
probably won't get Star Mercs as i see very little there I want and/or haven't
seen before.  Not a slam on it, by it any means... it looks fine, just nothing
I'd probably use.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:06:55 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

> Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
> I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
> output from Stuart's software and the results are
> fantastic.

Last time I checked, Stuart's required Win 95 and I've stuck w/ 3.11.  Win 98
doesn't seem half as buggy from my use of it on friends, etc computers, so
I'll accept that when I get a new comp (whenever that is), but my current comp
is too weak to effectively use that IMO.  Did you get it to work on the simple
requirements Gal does?  

Hey Stuart, is it possible you could do an "official" add-on to Gal?  And have
it incorporated in Gal 2.5?  

What I'd really like also, is for the world mapping Hexmap including w/ Gal to
to randomly do maps, by the rules in WBH/WTH.  Having it be able to be set so
I could plug in a blank photocopy of the "global data view" from the TNE
Players Forms for printing would just be a very very happy extra.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:16:24 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Trav mini's; Space:1999

  On a lighter note, it appears that the Space:1999 plastic models
re-released by AMT/ERTL may be useful to some Traveller loonies.
Specifically, the Eagle-1 kit is within about 10% (a bit small) of
15mm scale*, while the Moonbase Alpha kit could probably be enlivened
by putting some of the smaller RAFM mini's on the docking pads; perhaps
it could be used to represent a secret pirate base :)

 * that was ObTrav; ObFreeSpeech: "The Martian Metals Trav mini's still suck"

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:09:14 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Shipyard now available

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > I've just got the license for GT Shipyard.
> >
> > For those of you just joining the TML, GT Shipyard is a Macintosh
> > application
> 
> Argh!  MAC!  I didn't know it was going to be Mac.
> Anything but that.
> 
> What we need is PC coder to translate Rob's work for PC.
> 
> You're sure to sell a lot more that way.

Or a Java coder, so that Rob's work could go platform indepenant, with
'try as you fly' demos.

Just a thought.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:00:46 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

>Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:06:25 EST
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113
snip
>Maybe, but i'm dubious... the M829A3 is the silver bullet.  If they do survive
>the hit, they're not going to be enjoying life much.   We have an MCD, though
>I won't see one until there's a war.
snip
>Gary
	Now it's stupid gamer question time.  What's an MCD?  Thanks.

						Andy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:48:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Kewl hit location determination technique

>From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
>Subject: Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)
...
>The idea came from-- ugh-- Warhammer 40K.  Here's the skinny:

  You actually collect/read GW products? That's very sad.

>Damn!  Doug, do you think it is too late to include this somehow in ACQ?
>Of course, there'd be the added expense of the templates and silouettes...
>nah, forget it.  We'll save it for the next supplement.

  One possibility is to just put up on a site as an optional accessory. 
Download the file, and laserprint it to an appropriate transparency as
supplied by your local stationery/office supplies store (/locker :> ).

        Steven  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:50:45 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: [Debate]  An Imperial Patriots Response 1 to Solomani Sam 2 resp to The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1

Solomani Sam wrote

> in this super technological society; 10,000 legislatures IS workable, 
> though a much smaller number is easier. If you do remember; I DID say 
> a pyramidal structure. At the Imperial level; you would only need AT 
> MOST, 432 senators at one per subsector. Note that since many sectors 
> have less than 16 Imperial subsectors; there are actually less senators needed.

And how exactly is this foul plan different then the 'Councils' that the
dirty stinkin Zho's use?

Obviously if those perverted mind raping mind controllins monsters are
for it it must be bad!

The fact that "Solomani Sam" says that this sort of stupid system is
desireable is proof that the Solomani and the Zhos are plotting against
us.  They know that their suffering, oppresed, enslaved, citizen ache
with the need to throw off their dictatorail regimes and step into a
proper system of government - one with nobles.  They are plotting to
bring down the Imperium from bothe ends at once.

> I have learned of Nobles who are also owners and/or
> CEOs of megacorporations manipulating Imperial law or even openly 
> breaking it to get their company an advantage (and incidentally making 
> them obscene amounts of money). 

You say that you have learned of this but do not bother to tell us where
you heard it.  You heard as a lying rumor from a bunch of other radical
traitors who do not know how to respect their betters.

We do not need your Solo symp crap here.  Go peddle your seditious ideas
somewhere else.  

Your sort ought to be taken out and shot. 

- - Expurgated version of a tract posted to the Debate system by an
unnamed party.

[OOC:  Sorry about this polemic but when I saw a system with some
similarities to the Zhodani system being advocated i thought that it was
bound to bring out this sort of intolerant nativist xenophobic rant.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:07:04 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Rob Prior wrote:

> >Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.
>
> Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.
>
> Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)
>
> Guess I should enquire...

$15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
$16.41 CA = $15 US

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:11:05 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote

> In a message dated 2/25/99 4:18:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> redroach@texed.net writes:
> 
> << At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax 
> > thingy is hardly even noticed.

The sales tax in most parts of Texas is about 8.5%.  I noticed, and
cringed, every time I bought anything in Texas.  I think it depends on
how used to it you are.

> Same here in Nevada, but we hate the sales tax...

Here in Alaska there is no state sales tax, most towns do not have a
sales tax, there is no state income tax and everyone who has been here
for a year, applies, and is not in prison receives a check from the
state every October.  Last year it was the biggest ever, over $1,500.
We also have spectacular landscapes of supernal beauty.

[Yes this is part of my attempt to get more Traveller players to game
with in Anchorage.  Will those of you who have lived here please not
mention the 19 hour nights in the (6 month long) winter,the cold, the
fact that our economy is going to heck in a handbasket, etc.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:25:36 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/25/99 9:59:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span? 
 
 And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?
 
 --Clif
  >>

	Clif, Clif, Clif,

	if you think that the drivel that falls out of the mouths of modern
politicians has anything to do with the art of rhetoric, then you need some
education.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:39:01 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congratulations! (was Congradulations! ;-)

In a message dated 2/26/99 12:41:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, david.d.jaques-
watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< 
 No, really, if it's presented as a game, it may generate more student
 interest. Set up the situation (maybe even as a freeform) and have both
 sides argue it out.  A bit like setting up a mock courtroom or parliament -
 I've heard reports of schools running events like this. Just make sure he
 lets us know the results!
  >>

	I am a Latin teacher and have a small series of historical simulations I use
in class, mostly in the form of "Imperial Councils"  which go a long way in
teaching the characters and issues of historical events.  They are made for
about 12-18 students.  If anyone would like to see a sample, e-mail me
privately and I'll send you one.  (Once you've done one, making others is
relatively easy, if a bit time-consuming)

		Dave Nelson
		AveNelso@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:51:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]  The Old Marquis responds to the Imperial Patriot 1.

My dear Patriot,

	While your sentiments may be appreciated,  I behooves us all to act and speak
as gentlemen.  This is the hallmark of a noble class, it is not a mere window
dressing or ornament.   Gentlemanly behavior is a noble's highest obligation,
since if he claims some sort of "superiority" or "merit" because of his noble
patent, he is obligated to prove that in word and action, lest a noble patent
become a mockery.  To quote our dear Crassus, from that "Spartacus" vid once
again, "The problem with being a patrician is that occasionally you must act
like one."
			Your obedient servant,

			The Old Marquis 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:53:56 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
<<snip>>
> >
> > I see the Imperial Marines as a lot closer to the Marines in the days of
> > sail (shipboard security, boarding actions, limited landings) than
> > modern amphibious troops.
> 
> They certainly do that role, but one major tactic in canon would be contrary:
> the meteoric assault.   Ships troops duties do come from the Imperial Marines,
> but jump troops have a very important role in Traveller planetary combat.
> First wave comes in by Jump.  These are probably almost always spearheaded by
> Imperial Marines w/ certain high caliber Imperial Army units next.  Then the
> bulk of the Imperial Army by troop transports, etc.
> 
> Gary

Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  Since meteoric assault has
aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
both services would have jump-capable infantry units.

Perhaps the Marines would, like their late 20th century USMC
counterparts, consist of infantry with a significant armor component. 
Meanwhile, Imperial Army jump troops are mostly infantry, with little to
no armor component (see the 82d Airborne for an example).  These
differences would make Imperial Army jump troops easier to deploy, and
Imperial Marine units more self-sufficient.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:58:55 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]  The Old Marquis 5 responds to Solomani Sam 3

My dear Samuel,


You have stated  "...Decentralization. Delegate as much working power as
 possible to as low a level as possible."   Exactly so.  Let us just leave
each member world to govern itself as it sees fit, just as it does now.  Is it
really necessary to replace the noble structure with elected delegates to
defend the space lances and foster trade?  Has the noble structure failed in
these tasks?  Did not our good Duke Norris, acting in his capacity as Duke,
rescue our efforts in the most recent Frontier War?  Have there been
noticeable failures in the defense of the realm or movement of trade goods? 

			Your obedient servant,

			The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:04:23 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

In a message dated 2/26/99 7:59:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< 
 Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
 the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  Since meteoric assault has
 aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
 both services would have jump-capable infantry units.
  >>

	I think that that depends on when in "history' we are talking.   In Milieau
0, I imagine that almost all the jump troops would be Imperial Marines, since
army battalions are drawn from member worlds and most of those do not have
sufficient experience with space travel and combat to have large amounts of
jump troops.  What Imperial Army jump troops there are would be from Sylea
itself.   In M1100+ I would think that there would be large number of Jump
troops in the Imperial Army, but they wold not be a funding priority.   It
seems that the marines establish the beachhead and the Army grinds up the
opposition.

		Dave nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:19:53 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Congratulations!

> From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
> I bumped into an old English teacher at Grand Central today.
> Literally.  At the time, I was reading printouts of the Debate
> articles, and ran smack into him, dropping the paper.  He helped
> me pick it up, and read one or two in the process.  I never
> though I would see this man so near tears.
> 
> His comment was "I'm glad to see that rhetoric isn't dead.  But
> why can't I get my students interested in it?"

Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for another argument to defend RPGs against the 
hordes of barbarians who look at us as if we were utterly crazy. I 
will file this example next to the evidence that roleplayers here in 
europe are more statistically more proficient in English than the 
average...
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:02:04 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Travellers' Aid Society

<< How does GT handle TAS membership?  As an advantage, presumably, but what

 is the point cost and what are the benefits described in the book?

  >>

 I did notice that in GT TAS membership costs 1 Mcr per YEAR not a 1 Mcr 1

time initiation fee!

Yikes!



Note: SJG says this is an erratum.  It should still be a one-time MCr.  And
no, no point cost, just a cash cost.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:05:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: WebSector

Someone could make a template .html page with tables, etc. so that all a
volunteer would have to do is fill in the blanks.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>; scspieker@ncweb.com
<scspieker@ncweb.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: WebSector


>Ok, let's collect our wits.
>
>The idea so far is to re-create the X-boat route, starting in the
>Deneb sector.  There are lots of neat things we can do, including
>using perl-cgi scripts to interface with a central database for
>fetching routing information, automatic star system generation
>software, etc.
>
>I think what we need right now, however, is a Very Simple
>proof of concept.  Might I suggest a hand-detailed page of
>basic system information, including hard-coded links to the
>xboat route neighbors?  The fun stuff can be attached at leisure;
>but let's just get something up now.  Is that okay?  If we get
>enough volunteers, we can string our sites out across Deneb,
>into the Marches, Corridor, and Reft...
>
>Keep those ideas coming.
>
>Rob
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:00:56 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

>"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>writes:
>>He asked "what sucks about GT?"
>>
>>That's a perfectly reasonable question, phrased in normal
>>conversational English.
>
>In my part of the globe, that's considered rude. (OK, teenagers don't
>consider it rude.)

Wow.

Sorry, but it's hard to imagine a part of the Amercian continent where
the term "it sucks" is considered
rude ( Assuming one isn't talking about vacuum cleaners).

>I've been cautioned by my administration about using this kind of
>language. (What I _wanted_ to say was a lot more pungent, given that
I was
>being assigned work that should have been done by someone who was
paid
>millions yet hadn't delivered. IIRC, I'd been given enough duties to
bring
>me up to a 70-hour week, and I'd muttered "that sucks" to myself in a
>private meeting.)

Heck, Rob, why do you bother working for them ?
(deja-vu, did I ask that before some time ?)

In such a situation I'd certainly tell them where to get off.

>ObTrav? Consider that normal phrases in one part of the Imperium
might be
>insults in another. A wise Traveller will adapt himself to his
>surroundings, and consciously avoid giving offense. Rather than
claiming
>loudly that "'gutwap' is acceptable where _I_ come from" he will find
a
>less loaded term.

Of course your average US Tourist ( y'know, the one with all the
cameras and the Hawaian shirt that appears in all the English movies )
will just say it louder and ask why the idiot furreners don't
understand American...

Now that gives me an idea :

Characters are hired as bodyguards for the son of a Vilani noble who
is touring the back blocks of a world with a TL4-5  indigenous
culture.  The snag is that he is a complete Vilani bigot who acts
surprised that the natives don't wear loin cloths and that they dont
all come out and throw themselves at his feet.

Difficulty with this plot, of course is coming up with a reason why
the players still try to keep him alive after they find out.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:05:57 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

>Rob Prior writes:
>
>For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
>intercourse, in a rather crude manner 

You mean, like in England ?
:-)

"Roger the Cabin Boy !"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:42:41 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Jeff Zeitlin requested:
>
>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:56:48 -0500, "Smart, David J (David)"
><dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>
>>Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
>>I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
>>output from Stuart's software and the results are
>>fantastic.
>
>Now that you've sung its praises from the Solomani Rim to the
>Vargr Extents, _where_do_I_GET_the_bloody_thing_?

Odd's are someone else has already told you
but...

Stuart's site is at: http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Click on the "TAS Resource Centre" link and look
for the "World Builder Deluxe" link. Stuart has
also split the various functions into standalone
applications if you want only certain functions
of WBD.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:38:31 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189

>I have yet to be verbally assaulted
>by anyone on the TML for any reason, despite a modest amount of
posting.

Is that a challenge ?
<grin>

Makess me think of British bobby reading from 'is notes in court,

"An' at 'alf parst too, on 't corner of St Martin's and Peeble
streets, I saw the alleged victim being verbally assaulted by the
dee-fen-dant.   'Ee  'ad  this hewwge verbal in his roight 'and an'
was ree-peatedly bashin' the allleged victim wiv 'it  "

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:49:34 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

>Hmmm....  Young D-Leo boards the ISCV King Richard, and spots his ONE
True
>Love (Kate Winslet) boarding as a High Passenger.  Leo dreams of
meeting
>her, and showing her that a SOC 3 dweeb can talk her out of her
clothes
>just as well as her SOC 10 jerk fiance.  This fantasy continues right
to
>the point the medic throws him in the low-sleep berth...

"Open the berths ! The ships sinking ! We''ll all die in here !"

Phssst.
"Number 51's hallucinating again. If he gives us any more trouble, I
reckon this one's going to be
one of the 15% who don't make it....."

OO, that's a nasty thought. Maybe the slow berth casualty rate is a
myth coooked up by unscrupulous captains. Of course, it used to be
based on truth, there _was_ a high risk of dying from cold sleep, but
with modern equipment that risk just ain't there anymore...

Mulder, working on a tip from a cold berth manufatcurer, investigates,
with Scully along to disect the bodies.
It get's nasty as they interview cold sleep customers who claim to
have woken up with strange fluids leaking from their orifices, and
dreams of alien surgery or strange sexual encounters with members of
the crew...

Traveller meets Donaldson's "The Gap" series.

Mix in a few obligatory Cthuloid scritchings in the dark of the
recovery chamber.....

Frankie





- --
>
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TravGeekCode:
>tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #204
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 205



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #204
Re: GURPS Task system
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
GURPS Traveller Vehicles
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Donosev update 2-26-99
Did I just read what I think I just read?
Re: WebSector Mailing List and HIWG
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #204
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?
GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
Re: Pyramid
Yada-Yada-Yada
Attention Space Dock users...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:11:04 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

Black ICE wrote:
> Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
> the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  Since meteoric assault has
> aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
> both services would have jump-capable infantry units.
> 
> Perhaps the Marines would, like their late 20th century USMC
> counterparts, consist of infantry with a significant armor component.
> Meanwhile, Imperial Army jump troops are mostly infantry, with little to
> no armor component (see the 82d Airborne for an example).  These
> differences would make Imperial Army jump troops easier to deploy, and
> Imperial Marine units more self-sufficient.
IMTU I don't use Marines or Army to describe the Imperial Military.  I
find the terms archaic (for Traveller) and brings with them to many
other connotations & comparisons to today's military (like mentioned
above).  Here is an portion of a hand out I give to my players that have
played Traveller before.

"There are three branches of the Imperial military: Imperial
Interstellar Fleet, Imperial Star Troops, and Imperial Planetary Forces.
The use and purpose of the Interstellar Fleet is obvious.  The Star
Troops are primarily mobile offensive soldiers and secondarily defense
on newly acquired territory; they are also used as boarding crews for
the Fleet.  The Planetary Forces is the permanent defense force of
planets; they differ from the Star Troops in that they are not used in
offensives. The previous terms of Navy, Marines, and Army are archaic
and can cause some confusion & misconceptions with the Imperial
military.  The Navy implies sailing over the ocean (what do we call the
ones that actually do that in the game), Marines are primarily used as
an initial strike force, and the Army is used for full-scale war."

The hand out covers all the changes from "canon"; it is titled
'Traveller modifications (a.k.a. Acts of Heresy)".  Any feedback would
be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:08:50 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #204

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> 
> $15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
> But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
> $16.41 CA = $15 US

Wow! Did he sign up in the early eighties? Late 70's?

As a Canadian who goes to the US often, allow me to be
the first to point out the painful fact that the exchange 
rate is much worse than that.

ObTrav: Hivers.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:33:34 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task system

Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:05:22 -0600, Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>

>Clay _ wrote:
>>
>> >IAC, what do you think of the following idea for a GURPS task
>> >system...particularly a system for GT?
>> >Task Task
>> >Mod  Level
>> >- -----------
>> > +6  Easy
>> > +3  Routine
>> >  0  Normal
>> > -3  Difficult
>> > -6  Formidable
>> > -9  Staggering
>> > -12  Hopeless
>> >Determine the difficulty of a Task and add the modifier to the
>> >appropriate Skill or Attribute and other modifiers, then roll against
>> >3d6.
>> >Eris
>>
>> This is very similar to the system I use for my GURPS Traveller game.
>
>I can't claim it's unique. ;->  I think D Summers used something very
>similar as well.

It may be from my GURPS Traveller article (which I wrote and
posted come years ago).  Its the one I made up for T4
conversions.  The one I proposed for CT was a bit different,
but if you like that one better....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:41:39 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

I'll post it when I've finished it (which given that I'm currently 
studying for two degrees, running a PBEM, working on 
the UCP and trying to raise two children might be awhile).


Andrew etc.


Aawwww, c'mon Andrew, just do it in your OFF time....;^>
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:44:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

At 06:53 AM 2/26/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
>the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  Since meteoric assault has
>aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
>both services would have jump-capable infantry units.
>
>Perhaps the Marines would, like their late 20th century USMC
>counterparts, consist of infantry with a significant armor component. 
>Meanwhile, Imperial Army jump troops are mostly infantry, with little to
>no armor component (see the 82d Airborne for an example).  These
>differences would make Imperial Army jump troops easier to deploy, and
>Imperial Marine units more self-sufficient.

Oddly enough, I see it reversed.

The Marines are almost all infantry, albeit infantry equipped with
battledress and fusion weapons.  All Marines are trained for
rapid-interface via drop capsules.  Marine armor units are fairly rare.

The main mission for the Marine force is too be a first strike unit.  They
are equipped to hit hard and fast with overwhelming force.  They are not
designed for extended operations against regular forces.  The have to be
reinforced within a few days of their committal or the unit will start to
degrade badly.

The army, on the other hand, is made of troops drawn from the defense
forces of all the Imperium's worlds.  These troops are equipped to TL-14/15
standards and are available for off-world operations.  The army is *huge*;
where there might be 10,000 Marines in a subsector, there could be millions
of army troops.  

The army is mostly a defensive force.  Very heavy in vehicles and artillery
support, the army carries a massive set of trains and support.  Committing
army forces in any number requires tying up a large number of transports
and escorts.  Army troops are mostly in Comber Environment Suits and carry
gauss weapons.  Where the Marines focus on concentrating firepower in one
elite trooper, the Army accepts a lower level of training and gets the same
level of fire from a larger unit.

The Army does have jump units, mostly because they're seen as dashing and
romantic.  These units would be used to supplement Marine assets and for
supplemental landings after the Marines have packed up and followed the
fleet onward.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:08:16 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

Actually he didn't have the highest kill stats, that was reserved for
another Marine with 106.  Can't remember his name but just saw it on "The
History Channel" 2/23/99 under the program title "Suicide Missions - Sniper"
9:00 P.M. eastern time.

Thom
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)


>At 12:14 AM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Doug Berry and a couple of others have mentioned his name on the list in
the
>>past.
>
>Carlos Hathcock wasn't just the most successful sniper in American military
>history, he was also a great Marine and a wonderful person.  I had the
>chance to shake his hand once, and he struck me as a very simple, pleasent
>person, at peace with himself and the world.
>
>We will never see the likes of him again.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:17:28 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

In a message dated 2/26/99 10:10:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
arioch@theriver.com writes:

<< 
 "There are three branches of the Imperial military: Imperial
 Interstellar Fleet, Imperial Star Troops, and Imperial Planetary Forces. >>

	But, the designations Navy, Marines and Army, reflect a conscious
"archaizing"  by the founders of the Imperium,  just as the noble titles
baron, duke etc. are archaic.   Part of the legitimacy of the Third Imperium
was esablished by deliberately connecting its institutions with those of the
past, especially the Terran-based Second Imperium, which used these terms
"Army, Navy, Marines" because their armed forces developed out of the old
planetary forces in a very great hurry during the Interstellar Wars.

		The Old MarXXXXX opps scratch that, wrong thread

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:25:24 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Vehicles

Version 1.01.00 of GURPS Traveller Vehicles is up.

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Many fixes and a couple of new features.

Many thanks to all who contributed ... especially 

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>

His help has been ...

<my grammer> Invaluably Priceless </my grammer>

I hope this is last one for awhile.

Your existing ship files will still work.

On the horizon - Its a secret.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:35:44 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

>People, it can't get better than this. The *only*
>downside is both packages are for the PC only.
>


Maybe Dom, Rob, and others will finally get a PC ;)

Sorry, couldn't help it.
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:54:50 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

I can't possibly give a good enough recommendation to Hyphen's Jump Points
site.  Do a search and you can find anything off of it.  His site's at:
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/ then go to the jump points.  I use this site
whenever I'm trying to find a site I forgot to bookmark.

Jesse







>Jeff Zeitlin requested:
>>
>>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:56:48 -0500, "Smart, David J (David)"
>><dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
>>>I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
>>>output from Stuart's software and the results are
>>>fantastic.
>>
>>Now that you've sung its praises from the Solomani Rim to the
>>Vargr Extents, _where_do_I_GET_the_bloody_thing_?
>
>Odd's are someone else has already told you
>but...
>
>Stuart's site is at: http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
>
>Click on the "TAS Resource Centre" link and look
>for the "World Builder Deluxe" link. Stuart has
>also split the various functions into standalone
>applications if you want only certain functions
>of WBD.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:04:45 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Donosev update 2-26-99

Now, before you get too excited, it's only one shot, but it shows you (for
those interested in 3D) what a bump-map alone can add to the model.  This
also means that all the map "templates" are ready to go, so I just need to
paint the rest of the maps.  I should have the textures done by Monday and
the results posted without interference from Mr. Murphy or Real Life (tm).
Real Life (tm) is what's taken so long to this point.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:11:07 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Did I just read what I think I just read?

>Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:31:20 -0600
>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
>Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
>
>>Presumptuous pessimistic prophesying.
>>
>>--Clif
>
>
>
>Just proves clif's lack of grey matter. There WILL not ever be a man like
>Hathcock.
>Too bad he could not have taken one last shot.

Actually, while I hate taking sides in these inane threads, I have to agree
with Clif:

Not having met the man, I have no opinions of him personally.  However, to
say that 'There WILL not ever be a man like Hathcock.' sounds more like
hero-worship than rational thought to me.  Not to mention, it's pessimistic,
presumtuous and, well, 'prophesying' (unless you have some way of looking
into the future that we do not).

As a further comment (if I'm gonna get flamed, I might as well work at
earning it) I rather agree with the fellow who mentioned something to the
effect that being a highly skilled killer is nothing to brag about.

Having read the posted obituary, I admire the man's reputed bravery
(remember, I wasn't there, never met him) and loyalty to his comrades. 
Taking lives in cold blood isn't my idea of a hero (and yes, I'm well aware
of the need for snipers in a field of enganement yaddayadda ad nauseum).

But I highly doubt that he is the only such heroic individual in the history
of the world, nor do I think he'll be the last.  In fact, I'm willing to bet
that any number fo individuals on either side of any war you can name acted
with bravery above and beyond, many of them only recognised for it
posthumously, in all likelihood.

And that's merely wartime.  I'm relatively certain that bravery and valor
are not limited to situations where you're trying to kill someone.


On a final note - for all the pro- and con-Clif (or insert your favourite
target here) I've seen in a few years on this list, I don't remember any
individuals with less class than the poster I am quoting, "Thomas Vickers"
<redroach@texed.net>, who, unless I read his above quote wrong, just wished
another human being (and list member, for thoe of you who see posters here
as mines of ideas!) dead.

Yep. that's class.  I *hope* I never meet another man (online or not) like
Thomas Vickers, but I suspect I will.  Like my thoughts on heroism above, he
can't have cornered the market on idiocy.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:11:54 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector Mailing List and HIWG

All,
	One small item.  The HIWG group has invited us (the WebSector group) to
join their mailing list.  Their list details systems in a manner similar
to what we are trying to accomplish.  One of the other major factors
with HIWG is that they are part of our target audience.  We also may be
able to draw more support and efforts from their numbers...

The hiwg mailing list is located at: 
        Majordomo@qrc.com

The command is:
	subscribe HIWG

That's it.  I will be closing down this list now that we have a more
'realistic' home for our project.  If you have any questions or comments
please feel free to send them to me at: scspieker@ncweb.com

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

Clif wrote:
> 
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> 
> Someone could make a template .html page with tables, etc. so that all a
> volunteer would have to do is fill in the blanks.
> 
> --Clif
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>; scspieker@ncweb.com
> <scspieker@ncweb.com>
> Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: WebSector
> 
> >Ok, let's collect our wits.
> >
> >The idea so far is to re-create the X-boat route, starting in the
> >Deneb sector.  There are lots of neat things we can do, including
> >using perl-cgi scripts to interface with a central database for
> >fetching routing information, automatic star system generation
> >software, etc.
> >
> >I think what we need right now, however, is a Very Simple
> >proof of concept.  Might I suggest a hand-detailed page of
> >basic system information, including hard-coded links to the
> >xboat route neighbors?  The fun stuff can be attached at leisure;
> >but let's just get something up now.  Is that okay?  If we get
> >enough volunteers, we can string our sites out across Deneb,
> >into the Marches, Corridor, and Reft...
> >
> >Keep those ideas coming.
> >
> >Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We are proud as punch of our new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:19:17 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #204

>Rob Prior wrote:
>
>> >Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.
>>
>> Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.
>>
>> Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)
>>
>> Guess I should enquire...
>
>$15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
>But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
> $16.41 CA = $15 US

Um, no.  Not unless he bought it in the late seventies.  That works out to
9.something per cent, which might be sales tax in Ontario (I live in Quebec,
what do I know?), but if he bought it in the last year or so the conversion
(pre-tax) would have looked like $20-21.  Our currency sucks.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:54:33 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/26/99 10:10:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> arioch@theriver.com writes:
> 
> <<
>  "There are three branches of the Imperial military: Imperial
>  Interstellar Fleet, Imperial Star Troops, and Imperial Planetary Forces. >>
> 
>         But, the designations Navy, Marines and Army, reflect a conscious
> "archaizing"  by the founders of the Imperium,  just as the noble titles
> baron, duke etc. are archaic.   Part of the legitimacy of the Third Imperium
> was esablished by deliberately connecting its institutions with those of the
> past, especially the Terran-based Second Imperium, which used these terms
> "Army, Navy, Marines" because their armed forces developed out of the old
> planetary forces in a very great hurry during the Interstellar Wars.
> 
>                 The Old MarXXXXX opps scratch that, wrong thread
> 
>                 Dave Nelson
Good point. I understand the source of the names but I still find them
archaic, inapropriate, and the cause of some disputes.  The terms of the
nobility are also archaic but I find them very appropriate.  Some
disputes arise when military, ex-military, & military buffs say things
like "it should operate like this because when I was in the 2nd ID (or
82nd Airbourne, 3rd MI, Marine Corps, and so on) that's the way we did
things".  Since they have the same name many seem to think they operate
in the same manner (which is fine if you like it that way, I don't). 
You don't see as many people arguing "when I was a noble..." ;)

I know that most wont agree with me on this because it's not "canon" but
at the very least I hope most of you would agree that even though the
names may be the same they don't have to operate in the same fashion.

IMTU: tc+  tm++  !tn  t4+  tg+  tt  ru++(--)  ge+  3I+  c+(-)  jt- 
au+(-)  st++  ls  pi+  ta  he+  kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ zh++ 
vi++ da++  sy++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:00:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> We apparently have large numbers of cultures which survived more or less
> intact throughout some 1500+ years of Vilani rule. If the Vilani did have a
> policy of absorbsion they would not have survived. Now it might be that all
> these cultures were reconstructed during the RoM and/or Long Night, but to
> me that doesn't make sense either. To start with, linguistically they would
> be about as far removed from Vilani as the French are from Latin which
> does not appear to be the case. Also their cultures should (IMHO) show a
> far greater Vilani influence than appears to be the case. My theory is that

I have much greater hopes (if that's the right word) for people's ability
to manufacture themselves radically new identities, so I (at least) don't
find this particularly hard to believe.  Or at least, I find it much more
believable than the idea that they _were_ preserved over some 2000-6000
years of Vilani domination.

> taxes. But that is as far as it went, there was no deliberate policy of
> "Vilanification"; it was just to be a part of the Interstellar community, you had
> to play by the Vilani rules. Now there may well have been some cases where
> an individual race was judged to be too dangerous to "Interstellar stability" to
> be allowed to exist and these races may well have been deliberately
> "assimilated" (precedent: the Leoskalth); but as a general rule, the many
> alien cultures the Vilani conquered during the Consolidation Wars were
> allowed to continue to exist so long as they did not threaten overall Vilani
> dominance.

So how does this make the Ziru Sirka any different from the Third
Imperium?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:05:50 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?

Ross Coburn wrote:

> Taking lives in cold blood isn't my idea of a hero (and yes, I'm well aware
> of the need for snipers in a field of enganement yaddayadda ad nauseum).

As far as I am concerned, that depends on who you kill and why.
Hathcock is still a hero in my book.


> On a final note - for all the pro- and con-Clif I've seen in a few years on this list, I don't remember any
> individuals with less class than the poster I am quoting, "Thomas Vickers", who, unless I read his above quote wrong, just wished
> another human being dead.

What's wrong with that! (just kidding)  I think he was joking, at the
very least I don't think me meant it literally.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:18:42 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

TravelrTNE@aol.com  writes:
>Actually I was talking bout the content, though I see I failed to mention
>that.  D'oh. email.  I need a psionic keyboard... anyone got one?  I want
>them
>to get done w/ the initial set of books and start doing adventures and
>unveiling the "mysteries" of G:T.  I'm not entirely convinced I'll ever
>get
>this (well... what I really want is for *someone* to continue TNE, but
>that
>doesn't look too hopeful), but I'm holding out hope (for both).

May I make a suggestion?

Write up some adventures, and submit them to Pyramid. Something about the
scale of an Amber Zone would be ideal. If you need help with GURPS stats
for NPCs and stuff (I know I would), there's piles of people here who
would help. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:00 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

In a message dated 2/26/99 1:04:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:

<< 
 So how does this make the Ziru Sirka any different from the Third
 Imperium?
 
 Kenji
  >>
	The Ziru Sirka never had a deliberate "hands off local government" policy.
This sort of outlook is a key stone of the Third Imperium.  The Third Imperium
does not impose a caste system on all levels of society.   The Third imperium
has no "official" culture, though Solomani, Vilani and Old Sylean outlooks are
very strong.  

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:41 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Pyramid

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>> >Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.
>>
>> Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.
>>
>> Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)
>>
>> Guess I should enquire...
>
>$15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
>But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
>$16.41 CA = $15 US

Guess I should have been specific. That _was_ $16.41 US. (OK, maybe it was
$16.42, but definately sixteen and change.)

This makes it about $24 Canadian, but with the unfavourable exchange rate
charged by VISA it set me back a bit more. I'll judge whether it's been
worth it next spring, based on how many GURPS Traveller items I see.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:24:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Yada-Yada-Yada

>(and yes, I'm well aware
>of the need for snipers in a field of enganement yaddayadda ad nauseum).
>

An interesting bit of trivia that I learned the other day... "yahdah"
(usually transliterated "yada" from the Hebrew) is the same word translated
"knew" in "Adam knew his wife Eve."  It often has sexual connotations, which
explains Elaine Benes' popularization of the expression "yada-yada-yada" in
place of overtly saying "they had sex".

I guess a sniper could say "yada-yada-yada" in place of "I'm gonna #%&$ him
up."

Repeating something 3 times in Hebrew is comparable to the suffix "-est" in
English.

The Holy (1) of Holies (2) is an example (in fact, often translated "Most
Holy"), as is "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD God Almighty."  (Not
proselytizing, since I don't worship "the LORD"(tr:  "loaf warden"), just
pointing out usages that I am familiar with.)

ObTrav:  Foreign languages--a great source of GM amusement, too.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:35:39 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Attention Space Dock users...

For those of you who are interested in making changes to the data files
right now, and don't want to wait for me to implement the interface
("patience grasshopper, it's on the way"), go check out my web site again
for a brief tutorial on using Microsoft Access 7.0 to change the data. The
URL is listed below.

Andrew

_______________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #205
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 206



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Congradulations!
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Cultural Differences
Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?
Re: Congradulations!
Low Berts (was: T5 Questions)
The Biggest Thing that Sucks About...
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
The difference between Leroy and Clif
Re: Congradulations!
It's Rhetoric, Frederick!
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Low Berts (was: T5 Questions)
OT: FCC update
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Ziru Sirka different from 3I?
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Vilani Assimilation
RE: Donosev Update 2-26-99
Tooting my own small horn
Re: [Debate]  Solomani Sam resp The Old Marquis 5 responds to Solomani Sam 3
Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: apologists.
Re: Congradulations!
Re: Congradulations!
Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:34:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

> Clif, Clif, Clif,
>
> if you think that the drivel that falls out of the mouths of modern
>politicians has anything to do with the art of rhetoric, then you need some
>education.
>
> Dave Nelson

You mean if I add a rhetorical question to a speech that doesn't necessarily
make it rhetoric?  ; )

- --Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:40:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

Yeah, I have, and it is so faithful to political debate that I became
disinterested in it, just like your typical peasant.  ; )  (It would help if
I were a canonized player.  : )  )

- --Clif

>BTW; have you been reading the
>on-line Traveller psuedo "Federalist Papers" debate?
>
>Seth
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:42:20 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>Sorry, but it's hard to imagine a part of the Amercian continent where
>the term "it sucks" is considered
>rude ( Assuming one isn't talking about vacuum cleaners).

Toronto is a bit uptight, and lower-middle management tends to be
politically correct, especially in this board. (It's a relaly odd
combination of poitically correct philosophy with right-wing financial
management, which as usual leaves the average kids stuck in the middle.)

>
>Heck, Rob, why do you bother working for them ?
>(deja-vu, did I ask that before some time ?)

Because I like the kids. There's no life like it. I complain, often
profanely, but I can't think of _anything_ else I'd rather devote my life
to. 

>
>In such a situation I'd certainly tell them where to get off.

That would lead to punitive measures. Even if nothing overt happens,
there's a lot of games that can be played with timetabling. I already have
a more frantic timetable than many other teachers here, I don't need them
to make an effort to make it busier.
>
>Of course your average US Tourist ( y'know, the one with all the
>cameras and the Hawaian shirt that appears in all the English movies )
>will just say it louder and ask why the idiot furreners don't
>understand American...

I met those folks in Amsterdam and Vancouver. Didn't notice the cameras,
though. :-)

To be honest, the worse chap in Vancouver wasn't wearing a Hawaian shirt,
and he was actually a retiree. I think the accent was Texan, but I'm not
certain. He was complaing how all the immigrants had ruined Vancouver - it
had been such a nice place when he moved there five years ago, before the
Chinese arrived. This while we were both getting directions from a nice
Chinese grandmother (who had been _born_ in Vancouver).

>
>Now that gives me an idea :
>
>Characters are hired as bodyguards for the son of a Vilani noble who
>is touring the back blocks of a world with a TL4-5  indigenous
>culture.  The snag is that he is a complete Vilani bigot who acts
>surprised that the natives don't wear loin cloths and that they dont
>all come out and throw themselves at his feet.
>
>Difficulty with this plot, of course is coming up with a reason why
>the players still try to keep him alive after they find out.

Hm. They signed a contract, and their reputation will be ruined if they
don't protect him?  His mother is really powerful, and the players figure
she'll exact revenge if they fail?  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:45:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?

>>I don't remember any
>> individuals with less class than the poster I am quoting, "Thomas
Vickers", who, unless I read his above quote wrong, just wished
>> another human being dead.
>
>What's wrong with that! (just kidding)  I think he was joking, at the
>very least I don't think me meant it literally.
>
But if my name were CliNton and not CliFton, his heiney would be questioned
by Secret Service men.

Of course, Nero is above the Law Level...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:44:51 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/26/99 1:37:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< ou mean if I add a rhetorical question to a speech that doesn't necessarily
 make it rhetoric?  ; )
 
 --Clif >>

	That's a good start , old boy,  Add a few epanaphorae, a praeteritio and
you're on your way!   ;)

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:47:11 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Low Berts (was: T5 Questions)

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>OO, that's a nasty thought. Maybe the slow berth casualty rate is a
>myth coooked up by unscrupulous captains. Of course, it used to be
>based on truth, there _was_ a high risk of dying from cold sleep, but
>with modern equipment that risk just ain't there anymore...

Back before cloning became commercially feasible, they used to sell
organs, then cremate the corpse after a 'failed' revival.

While under investigation for excessive revival failures, a captain who's
in the hole to the Mob decides to increase his survival rate by only
removing non-vital organs. The player affected doesn't discover this until
his annual physical reveals he has only one kidney...

Non-canon, but a nasty plot.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:49:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: The Biggest Thing that Sucks About...

The biggest thing that sucks about the Sci-Fi channel is that another
channel can't come along, more dedicated than they are to science fiction,
and call themselves the Sci-Fi channel.

- --Clif

P.S.:  It's like a Coco-Cola site at Pepsi.com... And Coke won't sell the
domain to Pepsi!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:52:25 -0000
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Hello,

as one of the people working on WBD with Stuart, can
I just say one thing? One of the things we have been 
working on is the Extended System Generation for
systems. Instead of the old version, where you had a 
text file for the system and that was it, we have each
system having its (sp? ;-) ) own  sub folder. Now, I may
be wrong, but I don't think that Galactic lets you attach
a folder, just a text document. This could cause some
complications.
	 Of course, use WBD for what you wish,
(I am OK to say that, aren't I, Stuart?) but we've been 
working on the premise of combining it with Tom Bont's
excellent Astrogator 4 software, and IMO that's the way
our project should go.

Also, one of the reasons I got invoved with the WBD/Astro
project is that I, and a few others, wanted to see a consistent
Imperium, in its fullest detail, without gigabytes of downloads.
I'm not too sure about having world resource information
as an internet resource, purely from the financial prospect
of spending weeks downloading this information. Some of
us don't get unlimited free calls / local call allowance from
our telcos.

I think I've been 'volunteered' to do a WBD / Astro web site,
so I'll give it a go, and let the TML know when it's done.

I now return you to your regular discussions about ettiquette
and various 'Clif' centred discussions.....

Cheers

Derrick

Derrick Jones
St Helens 
Lancashire UK

mailto:dojones@whitestar.u-net.com
http://www.whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:47:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The difference between Leroy and Clif

People have unfairly likened Clif to Leroy.

Leroy was generally polite but condescending. An increasing arrogance was
evident, but most of his posts revolved around Traveller, as did the
topics. Leroy is remembered for being one half of the RoM debate, which
(even though he was wrong ;-) ) was about a Traveller topic.

When thinking of him I don't associate Clif with a particular debate, I
just tend to recall that he tends to be volitile in debate, and I have to
think twice sometimes before responding. However, he does make some
interesting insights when he's not caught in a flame fest. My sadness is
that his tone, and politeness leave much to be desired, in my opinion.

The difference is approach - Leroy took a while to get everyone's back up.
Clif lacks his subtlety, but was improving before the GT outburst. Now,
that came mid-week, and I didn't respond at first because real life was in
the way. Sadly, I (and others) didn't respond fast enough and Clif's
patience snapped.

This is what he needs to address (along with his tone) if he ever wants to
become someone who people listen to, and like discussing things with.

Now this may be totally the wrong impression that I have of Clif, but it's
the way he comes over to me from his posts. YMMV.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:37:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span?
>And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?

That isn't rhetoric - it's generally lying.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:07:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: It's Rhetoric, Frederick!

><< ou mean if I add a rhetorical question to a speech that doesn't
necessarily
> make it rhetoric?  ; )
>
> --Clif >>
>
> That's a good start , old boy,  Add a few epanaphorae, a praeteritio and
>you're on your way!   ;)
>
I usually like those with a little mild salsa.

What about some faulty syllogisms and some tautologies, just to make things
interesting?

- --Clif  : )

> Dave Nelson
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:08:19 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

I for one...would like to see SJG games publish a GT adventures...like 
their G:Supers Adventures and G: Time Travel Adventures....Just a 
thought...





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:08:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berts (was: T5 Questions)

True, from what Ernie told me, Bert isn't that tall.  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:19:54 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: OT: FCC update

Heyo!

From today's issue of 'Daily Brief' (mailto:subscribe-db@incinc.net to
subscribe - it's a decent news summary) :

* The Federal Communications Commission ruled yesterday that dial-up
internet connections are interstate in nature and should therefore be
subject to federal jurisdiction.
    - future FCC hearings are planned on how rates for such dial-up
connections should be set.

Since what the FCC does to the internet will effect everyone on this list
(well, maybe only those of us in North America), I thought you might want to
know that the FCC is, again, examining how much we pay to access the
internet.  This could be a good thing (the government does, occaisionally,
*help* us) or it could be a bad thing (and considering the lobby pressure
that the phone companies have available, and the fact that *they* want a
per-minute fee schedule for internet access...)

www.fcc.gov is the FCC website.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:11:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Congradulations!


>"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
>>Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span?
>>And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?
>
>That isn't rhetoric - it's generally lying.
>
>Dom

Weren't the sophists master rhetoricians(is that a word?)?  My impression of
the sophists is that they lied for money, while disguising their deceit in
pretty language.

- --Clif
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:14:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

Who was the psychopath who used to go crawling out to enemy positions at
night without orders, slitting the throats of so many enemies that whole
enemy units surrendered?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)


>Actually he didn't have the highest kill stats, that was reserved for
>another Marine with 106.  Can't remember his name but just saw it on "The
>History Channel" 2/23/99 under the program title "Suicide Missions -
Sniper"
>9:00 P.M. eastern time.
>
>Thom
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:06 AM
>Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
>
>
>>At 12:14 AM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>Doug Berry and a couple of others have mentioned his name on the list in
>the
>>>past.
>>
>>Carlos Hathcock wasn't just the most successful sniper in American
military
>>history, he was also a great Marine and a wonderful person.  I had the
>>chance to shake his hand once, and he struck me as a very simple, pleasent
>>person, at peace with himself and the world.
>>
>>We will never see the likes of him again.
>>--
>>
>>Doug Berry
>>dberry@hooked.net
>>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:20:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Ziru Sirka different from 3I?

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>	The Ziru Sirka never had a deliberate "hands off local government" policy.
>This sort of outlook is a key stone of the Third Imperium. 
...

  Sure, the 3I _has_ such a policy, but they don't actually seem to mean it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:20:53 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
...
>Sorry, but it's hard to imagine a part of the Amercian continent where
>the term "it sucks" is considered 
>rude ( Assuming one isn't talking about vacuum cleaners).

  Just `cuz we're stuck on the same continent as them doesn't mean you have
to lump us in with the Yanks, you vicious kiwi, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:25:44 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Vilani Assimilation

"They [the Vegans] were restricted under Vilani rule, as were all races
who resisted being integrated into the rigid Vilani culture."
- -page 44 of MT Imperial Encyclopedia

"The Vilani were able to impose Vilani culture and laws on these other
races among the stars."
- -page 45 of MT Imperial Encyclopedia

"These were gradually brought to a high-technology state with Vilani
help and assimilated into a loose interstellar community bound by trade
and common culture."  "These new races gained their technology without
being assimilated into Vilani culture;" (hence, the consolidation wars).
- -page 24 of MT Imperial Encyclopedia

You can find similar references of Vilani assimilation in the original
Library Data LBBs and DGP's Vilani & Vargr.  Although the latter is
written from the Vilani view point and doesn't use words like assimilate
using stuff like "benefits of our culture" instead.  I think the Vilani
assimilation is pretty clear in the OTU.

This, of course, might be different IYTU.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:22:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: RE: Donosev Update 2-26-99

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> 
> Now, before you get too excited, it's only one shot, but it shows you (for
> those interested in 3D) what a bump-map alone can add to the model.  This
> also means that all the map "templates" are ready to go, so I just need to
> paint the rest of the maps.  I should have the textures done by Monday and
> the results posted without interference from Mr. Murphy or Real Life (tm).
> Real Life (tm) is what's taken so long to this point.

Jesse,

So far, it looks great!  Thanks for putting the updates online as a 
demonstration to those of us interested; I enjoy seeing the process 
you go through to develop the outstanding starship images that you've 
created.  Keep up the good work; you are a talented artist, and I'm 
glad SJG is giving us the chance to see you put it to work in the GT 
product line.

Keep on Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:30:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Tooting my own small horn

While Jesse <bow scrape grovel> is the reigning king of Traveller 3D, I
too have been working on a Donosev, of which I'm kinda proud...

I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is, and at about the
limit of where my work looks even remotely as good as his...good
texturing is the really, REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the
part at which I am least successful so far..

Anyway...for your perusal:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html

(it's down at the bottom)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:39:40 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]  Solomani Sam resp The Old Marquis 5 responds to Solomani Sam 3

In a message dated 2/26/99 5:02:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< You have stated  "...Decentralization. Delegate as much working power as
  possible to as low a level as possible."   Exactly so.  Let us just leave
 each member world to govern itself as it sees fit, just as it does now.  Is
it
 really necessary to replace the noble structure with elected delegates to
 defend the space lances and foster trade?  Has the noble structure failed in
 these tasks?  Did not our good Duke Norris, acting in his capacity as Duke,
 rescue our efforts in the most recent Frontier War?  Have there been
 noticeable failures in the defense of the realm or movement of trade goods? 
  >>

The good Duke Norris is an excellent example of the right woman (or in this
case man) being in the right place at the right time. We can't always rely on
this. My arguement is that it's much more likely that in a pool of elected
candidates, we will be more likely to get a competant leader than a hereditary
noble. After all; it's possible that Duke Norris is just as likely to sire a
wastrel than another Norris. Also; I feel that elected officials have to
answer directly to their constituents, which nobles do not. These elected
officials (especially in the executive branch, who are then free to appoint
good managers who probably wouldn't be chosen by nobles). Of course you could
go to appointed non hereditary noblity (a meritocracy so to speak), but then
what's the point; you might as well use elections to maintain electorate
oversight...BTW; my thanks on spanking down that ....creature...I refused to
dignify that rant with an answer. Comparing representative democracy to the
Zhodani psionic oligarchy indeed...As for showing proof of megacorp-noble
mischief; if you really want me to show proof, I will (real life: do I really
have to wade through all of my CT-MT collection and pull examples?)

Solomani Sam

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:51:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Butt-Ugly Donosev

That Donosev is SOOO damn ugly!  It's like an object lesson in "the birds
and the bees" for those who missed that talk.

- --Clif

P.S.:  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:55:19 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: apologists.

>Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:05:50 -0700
>From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
>Subject: Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?
>
>Ross Coburn wrote:
>
>> Taking lives in cold blood isn't my idea of a hero (and yes, I'm well
aware
>> of the need for snipers in a field of enganement yaddayadda ad nauseum).
>
>As far as I am concerned, that depends on who you kill and why.
>Hathcock is still a hero in my book.

And you are entirely within your rights to do so, just as those who share an
opposing opinion are.  I would be the last man alive to dispute that.


>> On a final note - for all the pro- and con-Clif I've seen in a few years
on this list, I don't remember any
>> individuals with less class than the poster I am quoting, "Thomas
Vickers", who, unless I read his above quote wrong, just wished
>> another human being dead.
>
>What's wrong with that! (just kidding)  I think he was joking, at the
>very least I don't think me meant it literally.

Whether he meant it literally or was 'just joking' it is still in the
poorest possible taste, boorish and far, *far* worse than anyone else
(again, be it Clif or your whipping boy of choice) has ever posted on this
list to my knowledge.

If I were to wish that your wife/mother/significant other fell down the
steps and broke his/her neck tonight on this list, but was 'just joking'
would it be any less odious?

Is it any less offensive to read something like that, even if I'm 'just
making a point?'

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:50:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/26/99 2:14:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< 
 Weren't the sophists master rhetoricians(is that a word?)?  My impression of
 the sophists is that they lied for money, while disguising their deceit in
 pretty language.
 
 --Clif >>

	Of course, but at least they had the decency to  lie with flair,
sophistication and style.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:01:54 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Congradulations!

In a message dated 2/26/99 10:44:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< Yeah, I have, and it is so faithful to political debate that I became
 disinterested in it, just like your typical peasant.  ; )  (It would help if
 I were a canonized player.  : )  )
  >>

If you want to act like a peasant and call yourself one; who am I to argue
with you...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:02:39 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

Greetings All:

Time for the quarterly TML hate-fest, I see!

Can we all take a few deep lungfuls of ammonia or methane or whatever exotic
mix we are on, count to 10 (in base six) and shake hands?

Thanks! I really hate cutting out 60%+ of each digest because it's full of
flames...

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)
(Amateur Astronomer Since 1966)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #206
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #207</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B>
Date:	2/26/99 2:00:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
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To:	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 207



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
RE: Lancer again
Re: Pyramid
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
[Debate] The Old Marquis 6 resp. to Solomani Sam 4
Re: GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships
Re: apologists.
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Pyramid
Re: Pyramid
Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis
Re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re:   Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis
Re: Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)
Re: Lancer again

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:13 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

- ----------
> From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
> Date: Friday, 26 February, 1999 2:08 PM
> 
> 
> I for one...would like to see SJG games publish a GT adventures...like 
> their G:Supers Adventures and G: Time Travel Adventures....Just a 
> thought...
> 

Unfortunately, that isn't likely. SJG says they have found GURPS:
(Whatever) Adventures to be among the worst-selling products they have ever
published.
Why, I don't know.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:09:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Nice work Bruce!!  It's always EXTREMELY interesting to me to see the
methodology that other people use.  Usually, I only get to compare stuff
from Babylon 5 or Star Trek (other artists, never done any of either
myself), but here's another Donosev!  Nice job.  What program are you
useing?

Jesse




>While Jesse <bow scrape grovel> is the reigning king of Traveller 3D, I
>too have been working on a Donosev, of which I'm kinda proud...
>
>I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is, and at about the
>limit of where my work looks even remotely as good as his...good
>texturing is the really, REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the
>part at which I am least successful so far..
>
>Anyway...for your perusal:
>
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html
>
>(it's down at the bottom)
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:12:22 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
 I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
  >>

and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:23:46 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

I second that!!!!  Let's get out the fire extinguishers (or just vent the
place to vacuum :) and get on with the fun stuff of the TML.  We don't want
Ditzie showing up with one of her riot-suppression toys, now do we???

Jesse






>Greetings All:
>
>Time for the quarterly TML hate-fest, I see!
>
>Can we all take a few deep lungfuls of ammonia or methane or whatever
exotic
>mix we are on, count to 10 (in base six) and shake hands?
>
>Thanks! I really hate cutting out 60%+ of each digest because it's full of
>flames...
>
>Fred Kiesche
>(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)
>(Traveller Since 1977)
>(Father Since 1998)
>(Amateur Astronomer Since 1966)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:26:18 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?

- --Clif



>In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>brclif@digital.net writes:
>
><<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
> I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>  >>
>
>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:29:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

EEK!!

Jesse




>In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>brclif@digital.net writes:
>
><<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
> I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>  >>
>
>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:45:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

<childish evil>

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Clayton wrote:

[snip to sig]

> kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ zh++ 
> vi++ da++  sy++

Aw, come on!  What sorta love-fest is YTU, anyway?  I mean, can't you tell
us which ones suck?

</childish evil>

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:47:52 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Derrick Jones posted:
>
>Hello,
>
>as one of the people working on WBD with Stuart, can

May you be blessed you with many Credits and a 
maintenance-free starship!

>I just say one thing? One of the things we have been 
>working on is the Extended System Generation for
>systems. Instead of the old version, where you had a 
>text file for the system and that was it, we have each
>system having its (sp? ;-) ) own  sub folder. Now, I may
>be wrong, but I don't think that Galactic lets you attach
>a folder, just a text document. This could cause some
>complications.
<snip>

True, it won't allow a subfolder to be
attached (I believe) but the files that
can be attached are not limited to text
files. I've configured Gal2.4 to use
WordPad to view any documents. This
allows me to all of WordPad's functions
including imbedded graphics, scalable
fonts, formatting, etc.

Such files can also be linked to
specified locations on one of Gal2.4's
world surface maps which, of course, can
also be customized in regards to map hex
colors (no symbols, though :( ).

>	 Of course, use WBD for what you wish,
>(I am OK to say that, aren't I, Stuart?) but we've been 
>working on the premise of combining it with Tom Bont's
>excellent Astrogator 4 software, and IMO that's the way
>our project should go.

Cool! Once Astrogator has all the functionality of Gal2.4,
I'll happily make the switch. Tom's software has alot
to offer. I do find the use of fractal maps, while entertaining,
to be of limited utility to me as a GM. I need the ability
to easily and quickly customize a world's surface map
and link files to various map locations.

<snip>
>I think I've been 'volunteered' to do a WBD / Astro web site,
>so I'll give it a go, and let the TML know when it's done.

Please do!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:58:51 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of deckplans that might work for 
one of those "old" sleeper ships? I'm thinking of running an adventure 
involving the Scouts following the ship.

TIA

Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:02:56 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

IISS:  Imperial Insterstellar Scout Service
AHL:  Azhanti High Lighting.  About 60,000 more tons (IIRC) more starship
than most PC's have access to.  Also has a whole lot of turrets, bays
(again, IIRC), a spinal mount, and a squadron of Rampart class fighters.

Ouch!

Just trying to help :)
Jesse






>Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?
>
>--Clif
>
>
>
>>In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>>brclif@digital.net writes:
>>
>><<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
>> I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>>  >>
>>
>>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:51 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: RE: Lancer again

>My question is why a TL-13 laser, though I'm not familiar w/ MT vehicle design
>(and think there's probably no difference in such?).  I'll definately make it
>a TL-15 vehicle, as RCVG indicates it would be.


Because MT was before FFS1, and did not include provisions for designing
weapons (like GURPS Vehicles 1st ed. and, IIRC, Striker.). Instead, there
were several tables with weapons to choose from, and there was no TL15 beam
laser on the tables (TL13 was the highest).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:00:44 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

At 01:11 26.02.99 -0900, you wrote:

>> << At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax 
>> > thingy is hardly even noticed.
>
>The sales tax in most parts of Texas is about 8.5%.  I noticed, and
>cringed, every time I bought anything in Texas.  I think it depends on
>how used to it you are.
You are lucka#y! 
Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %. 
What I thought weird though, when I was in the States/Canada the first
time, was that 
the tax was not included in the price given on the product. While I am sure
this helps
to practice maths while shopping, it was annoying always being a couple of
cents short 
on cash when paying. 
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:02:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>>People, it can't get better than this. The *only*
>>downside is both packages are for the PC only.
>>
>Maybe Dom, Rob, and others will finally get a PC ;)
>
>Sorry, couldn't help it.

Grrr... Servant of the Evil Empire, speak not on this topic vile scum of
the NTchrist lest ye feel the wrath of .... <erm> What happened?

Oops.

Dom

PS Whatyagonna do when Mr Boies has finished getting Bill's Monopoly broken
up? ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:16:56 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate] The Old Marquis 6 resp. to Solomani Sam 4

My dear Samuel,


	In your last esay, you have said  "Also; I feel that elected officials have
to
answer directly to their constituents, which nobles do not. These elected
officials (especially in the executive branch, who are then free to appoint
good managers who probably wouldn't be chosen by nobles)."    Here lies the
sticking point of our dispute.   You "feel" an elected official, even if he
receives the votes of 6 billion people and beat a candidate with 5 1/2 billion
votes will be more responsive to "the people", presumbaly his slice of the
people, than a noble, who is responsible to the Emperor for good behavior and
is subject to local law as well.  

	Such an elected official would probably wish to represent policies and
ideologies of his voters, financial backers and supporters.  Such an official
would be actually less responsive or even hostile to the wishes of a large
segment of the people.  A noble's task on the other hand is to make sure
things run smoothly in order to guarentee his position and especially his
patrimony.  Nobles must look to the entire district, rather than his "voter
base" and must look to the entire future, rather than the next election.

	Whether your "feeling" has some merit or not, the crucial question is whether
the perceived danger to the Imperium is worth the wrenching change your
reforms would entail.  To leap off a precipice of this height requires more of
a cause.

				Your obedient servant


				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:19:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships

In a message dated 2/26/99 4:02:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< Does anyone know where I can get a copy of deckplans that might work for 
 one of those "old" sleeper ships? I'm thinking of running an adventure 
 involving the Scouts following the ship.
  >>

		Hey!  what about Gary Gygax's old game "Metamorphosis Alpha"
			(ACCCK)




			

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:23:39 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: apologists.

>Whether he meant it literally or was 'just joking' it is still in the
>poorest possible taste, boorish and far, *far* worse than anyone else
>(again, be it Clif or your whipping boy of choice) has ever posted on this
>list to my knowledge.


I wholly agree with Ross on this one. Poor manners all around. C'mon folks,
can't we all just get along? :-)

However, he is forgetting Leroy's little "sniper friend who can hit elk in
the Black Forest at 2000 yards" stunt. *That* was quite clearly a poorly
veiled scare tactic directed at one member of the list (even if a laughably
implausable one, considering the past experience of the list member it was
directed at).

ObTrav: Can we start talking about Traveller now?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:23:37 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

>While Jesse <bow scrape grovel> is the reigning king of Traveller 3D, I
>too have been working on a Donosev, of which I'm kinda proud...
>
>I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is, and at about the
>limit of where my work looks even remotely as good as his...good
>texturing is the really, REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the
>part at which I am least successful so far..


Hey, you guys are both way ahead of me. I don't even know *how* to do
texturing yet (Photoshop and Painter would be good tools for this, right?)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
(Who spends some of his almost non-existent spare time trying to learn
StrataVision 3D by modeling a Type-S scout)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:24:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Okay, and the Donosev that I blast would have to send a light-speed distress
call out before I trashed its com systems, right?  And how long would it be
before the AHL got the message?  Maybe I wouldn't even be in the
neighborhood, anymore.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:21:52 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

In a message dated 2/26/99 12:29:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< >and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you... >>

Imperial Intersteller Scout Service Ahzanti High Lightning class cruiser...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:30:28 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Quarterly hate-fest?

Quarterly Hate-fest?

Hardly. Clif is just getting everyone warmed up (steamed up?) for the
Biannual Piracy Flamespurts and Shouting Match, which BTW is 2 weeks late
already.

Still to come is the Great A-bomb/Violence Solves Nothing debate. (hints of
this one in the Sniper debate)

Say, remember when Leroy sort of threatened to have his friend "two miles
with a pistol in forest" Bob shoot Doug???

Maybe Leroy is the CT of  TML Flamebait - flawed in some ways, and a little
outdated now, but has any of the other versions (Mega-Flamebait, Flamebait
The New Era, Flame 4, GURPS Flamebait) really measured up to those grand
days of horse-shaped grease-spots and really REALLY pointless circular
debate?

Does anyone remember discussing Traveller? (no, delete that, Dougherty,
delete that NOW!)


On a more serious note; does anyone have any hard data on polities which
survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit in MT,
but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:21:11 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/26/99 4:12:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
greimann@geocities.com writes:

<< Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %. 
 What I thought weird though, when I was in the States/Canada the first
 time, was that 
 the tax was not included in the price given on the product. While I am sure
 this helps
 to practice maths while shopping, it was annoying always being a couple of
 cents short 
 on cash when paying.  >>


			The fact that tax is calculated at the register is precisely why it is only
from 0-9% in the U.S.   You are reminded of the tax each time it applies, and
get fiesty when they try to raise it.

			

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:25:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/26/99 1:12:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
greimann@geocities.com writes:

<< Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %.  >>

Is this in addition to a high income tax as well? if so, I am SO glad I live
in the states...My sympathies Herr Greiman...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:28:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis

	Howdy folks,

	I just had a few things to say about the debate. 

	1)  I was not initially going to get involved, but I must admit I'm having a
really good time in the debate with Seth (Solomani Sam), and am getting to be
fond of my alter-ego The Old Marquis.

	2) Clif, you were right, this is rather like a PBEM isn't it.

	3) Does the sponsor of the debate envision a close-out of the debate?

	4)  Is anyone else going to get involved again?   Are the other participants
being more deliberate and measured in issuing posts?  Seth and I seem to be
putting them out quite frequently.  Or are you all waiting for us to wind
down, before jumping back in?
	5) By the way, the "Congratulations" story was indeed a very neat thing to
read.

		In any case, it was a good idea (and pretty free of flames too, or is that
just because The Old Marquis is such a gentleman?)


		Dave  "The Old Marquis" Nelson

		

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:32:06 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Quarterly hate-fest?

In a message dated 2/26/99 4:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:

<< 
 On a more serious note; does anyone have any hard data on polities which
 survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit in MT,
 but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?
  >>

	The only one I can recall is the Union of Sufren in the Diaspora Sector,
which lasted through the Long Night and reappeared in Hard Times (it's either
in Hard Times, or Astrogator's guide to Diaspora sector)

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:57:39 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> brclif@digital.net writes:
>
> <<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
>  I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>   >>
>
> and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...

Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
it before.

Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
[really good simile that might offend some deleted]

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:50:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re:   Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis

Has anyone thought of the potential for pseudonymous leaflets, pamphlets,
tracts, whatever in the name on one's opponent or of oneself?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:37:55 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)

James W. Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com> wrote

<<SNIP>>
>The idea came from-- ugh-- Warhammer 40K.  Here's the skinny:
<<UNSNIP>>

Is this the same Warhammer 40K that I know and "love"??  The templates in
the English version are used for determining where 'multiple-impact warhead'
(ie submunitions) land; the first impact is at point A, the second is found
by rolling a die and moving the template so that the arrow on disc one
points to the relevant number, then roll a second die and again line the
arrow up with the number, then the fourth impact point is found the same
way, or however many munitions there were.  This is used for the Thudd Gun,
a sort of four-barreled mortar - hence the four impacts above.

Warhammer 40K - at least from the version after "40K-Rogue Trader" - is a
wargame, not a RPG.  It does have 'characters', but that is mainly to
distinguish officers or 'special agent' types from your common-or-garden
cannon-fodder, oops sorry, squaddie #8).  At least, that's the only way I've
seen it played.

Where did the template idea James mentioned originate?

(Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)

Eagerly awaiting the response...

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:42:54 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Lancer again

<<SNIP>>
>Um... Thunderbird 2?  Sounds familiar, but can't seem to recall...
<<UNSNIP>>


Gerry Anderson's 'Thunderbirds' should be required watching for *EVERYBODY*
into Science Fiction.  (And not just 'cos I look a little like Brains
#8)...)

Answers on the back of a sealed-down Tracy Island to...

Jeff R.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #207
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 208



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pyramid
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #207
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Alien Love-Fest
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Jump training
Re: Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
OT: batten down the hatches...
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:02:58 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Volker Greimann wrote:

> What I thought weird though, when I was in the States/Canada the first
> time, was that the tax was not included in the price given on the product.
> While I am sure
> this helps to practice maths while shopping, it was annoying always being a
> couple of
> cents short on cash when paying.

Thats just the result of the fact that each state has different taxes, and some
cities have sales tax as well.  Pricing is often done by the manufacturer, in
packaging
and the like, and many manufacturers deliver goods in diferent states.  Also,
certain classes of things aren't taxed, but that varies.  For instance, in
Texas,
most food isn't taxed.  And some clothing isn't, IIRC.  Texas needs the
relatively
high sales tax (bu US standards) because there is no state income tax.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:58:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Hee hee hee!!

Mr. who?  :P

Actually, you know why I never bought into the Mac all those years ago?  No
games :)  Still aren't close to the Intel platforms.  But hey, if the
monopoly did go away and the Intel boxes ceased to exist, Lightwave and
Photoshop are still available for the Macs, so I'd still be in business :)

Jesse



>Grrr... Servant of the Evil Empire, speak not on this topic vile scum of
>the NTchrist lest ye feel the wrath of .... <erm> What happened?
>
>Oops.
>
>Dom
>
>PS Whatyagonna do when Mr Boies has finished getting Bill's Monopoly broken
>up? ;-)
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:17:17 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

>> I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is,
>> and at about the limit of where my work looks even
>> remotely as good as his...good texturing is the really,
>> REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the part at
>> which I am least successful so far..


Ditto here.  I'm taking notes.  Jesse, are the templates
going to be shown next?  VRML/Moray/POV Ray is quite easy
for throwing textures about.  But, getting bump maps and
everything else to line up with the geometry is a bit
tricky.

> Hey, you guys are both way ahead of me. I don't even
> know *how* to do texturing yet (Photoshop and Painter
> would be good tools for this, right?)


Paint Shop Pro is another good editor if you're a PC user.


ObTrav:  More glory shots of your favorite vessels...
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:15:35 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #207

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>
> Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
> it before.

IIRC, it's the "400 ton Survey Scout" from CT _Fighting 
Ships_ (Supp 9?). 

It was deckplanned and detailed quite a bit more 
thoroughly in Digest Group's MT _World Builder's Handbook_.

> At least the Marava appears functional...

I think the Donosev looks functional. Looking pretty and 
landing in atmosphere just aren't part of its function. :)

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:25:47 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

ABSOLUTELY Joseph!!  I primarily use Photoshop for the ships.  If I need
something with alot of "grain" or need it "organic", then I'll use Painter.
Check out LightwaveDave's tutorial that's linked off of my site.  This is
exactly how I do my ship texturing, though I don't use the random horizontal
and vertical lines, I fog the edges.

Most of all, have fun experimenting!!
Jesse



>Hey, you guys are both way ahead of me. I don't even know *how* to do
>texturing yet (Photoshop and Painter would be good tools for this, right?)
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>(Who spends some of his almost non-existent spare time trying to learn
>StrataVision 3D by modeling a Type-S scout)
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:35:33 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Alien Love-Fest

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> <childish evil>
> 
> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Clayton wrote:
> 
> [snip to sig]
> 
> > kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ zh++
> > vi++ da++  sy++
> 
> Aw, come on!  What sorta love-fest is YTU, anyway?  I mean, can't you tell
> us which ones suck?
> 
> </childish evil>
> 
> Kenji

What can I say?  I love aliens.  I thought all of the major races and
most of the minor ones were very well done.  I try to use all of them in
my games at one time or another.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:31:58 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

The Donosev was originally in the LBB Fighting Ships (forget the supp #
right now), followed later on by the World Builder's Handbook, and the soon
to be released G:T "First In".  She wasn't designed to be pretty, but to do
a good job surveying.  To quote the WBH, "she's the backbone of the Imperial
Grand Survey", or something like that.  BTW, I'm CREATING her and I doubt
she'll appear as my wallpaper :)  She's got a face even a mother hates.

Jesse




>Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
>it before.
>
>Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
>be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
>The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
>a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
>the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
>[really good simile that might offend some deleted]
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:40:45 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Sure, I'll post shots of each of the maps that goes into texturing one of
the ships.  If you like, I can use one of the others instead of the Donosev,
since she's so fugly :)  The hard part if you're useing a low-end 3D package
will be, as you said, getting textures to line up.  If you look at the
Donosev-In-Progress shots that are up right now, each of those false shaded
colors is a SEPERATE texture, and EACH texture has FOUR maps:  Color,
Diffuse, Specular, and Bump.  Also, each of those areas may have the mapping
applied in a different way; planar map, spherical, cylindrical, and each may
be on a different axis; x, y, z.  Wheee!  Texturing is really the longest
and most tedious process.

Jesse





>>> I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is,
>>> and at about the limit of where my work looks even
>>> remotely as good as his...good texturing is the really,
>>> REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the part at
>>> which I am least successful so far..
>
>
>Ditto here.  I'm taking notes.  Jesse, are the templates
>going to be shown next?  VRML/Moray/POV Ray is quite easy
>for throwing textures about.  But, getting bump maps and
>everything else to line up with the geometry is a bit
>tricky.
>
>> Hey, you guys are both way ahead of me. I don't even
>> know *how* to do texturing yet (Photoshop and Painter
>> would be good tools for this, right?)
>
>
>Paint Shop Pro is another good editor if you're a PC user.
>
>
>ObTrav:  More glory shots of your favorite vessels...
>--
>TAZ
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:54:53 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Jump training

>Which brings up the question: Which service has more jump troop units - 
>the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army? Since meteoric assault has 
>aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that 
>both services would have jump-capable infantry units

All Marines are jump trained.  Only Imperial Army units wear the Jump
Certification badge.
For them it's something special.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Tatoos are the leisure suit of the 90s.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:59:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Debate--OCC from the Old Marquis

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 

>         4)  Is anyone else going to get involved again?   Are the other participants
> being more deliberate and measured in issuing posts?  Seth and I seem to be
> putting them out quite frequently.  Or are you all waiting for us to wind
> down, before jumping back in?

Oh Thucydides is going to get a reply out sometime, but he's been
involved in a number of other concerns to sit down and do up a proper
response. (Also, I want to think about it a bit, first...My first entry
kinda went on out in a hurry, now I have to respond to the others and
defend my position...and my brain is reaching creakily back to college
and those first year writing and rhetoric classes ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:57:59 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Texturing is really the longest
>and most tedious process.
>
>Jesse

If it is the newer brother of the lightwave I used years ago with the Amiga
and Video Toaster, it always takes time and I envy your patience and skill.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:56:57 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:
> 
> James W. Lindsay <jlindsay@home.com> wrote
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
> 
Only post-Virus release....  ;-)

Anybody up for a Vampire BatRon of TIGRESS-class ships?

> Eagerly awaiting the response...
> 
> Jeff R.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:21:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I for one...would like to see SJG games publish a GT adventures...like
>their G:Supers Adventures and G: Time Travel Adventures....Just a
>thought...

What would your feeling be if BITS published, say, a 40 page A4 (that's
approximately the same size as the GT books) or 40 page A5 (101/LBB size)
adventure module range with GT and T4 stats (T4 because it is pretty easy
to convert back and is likely to be compatible with T5, if the drafts are
to be believed)?

What would your feelings be if these where art light like the GDW LBB
Adventures?

What if some of these were M:Generic 1100s or M:0?

Just curious.....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:02:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

steve daniels wrote:

> Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
> it before.

The Donosev IIRC, first appeared in World Builder's Handbook, and was
also in the TNE rulebook, as well.

> Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
> be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
> The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
> a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
> the Marava appears functional and not like an *****

Awww, c'mon...what's _wrong_ with a starship that looks like it's a
monopoly house with a boll weevil's nose sticking out the front door?
;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:01:17 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> >Maybe, but i'm dubious... the M829A3 is the silver bullet.  If they do
survive
> >the hit, they're not going to be enjoying life much.   We have an MCD,
though
> >I won't see one until there's a war.
> snip
> 
> 	Now it's stupid gamer question time.  What's an MCD?  Thanks.

Missile Countermeasures Device.   Looks kinda like a disco ball.  It sends out
emissions of some kind that confuse a missiles little brain and make it fly
somewhere else and blow up.  Or something like that.  It's a one time use
thing.  Turn it on.  It burns itself out in its usage.  They're hideously
expensive, and you only get one use, so aside from a picture and a couple
diagrams, i've never seen one.  Don't want us breaking one, either. ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:01:21 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

> > They certainly do that role, but one major tactic in canon would be
contrary:
> > the meteoric assault.   Ships troops duties do come from the Imperial
Marines,
> > but jump troops have a very important role in Traveller planetary combat.
> > First wave comes in by Jump.  These are probably almost always spearheaded
> by
> > Imperial Marines w/ certain high caliber Imperial Army units next.  Then
the
> > bulk of the Imperial Army by troop transports, etc.
> 
> Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
> the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  Since meteoric assault has
> aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
> both services would have jump-capable infantry units.

I think that the large majority of Imperial Marines infantry would be jump
trained.  RCVG says Imperial Marines were mostly organized in regiments, which
contain three task force headquarters that draw from a pool of 18 companies (9
lift infantry, 5 meson artillery batteries, two lift cavalry, a grav tank
company, and a commando company) to divide amongst the three task forces as
required.  The Imperial Marine Task Force TOE in Striker II is only one
possible config.

The Imperium maintained a very limited number of permanent divisions.  For the
Imperial Army, it was probably a limited number of units, probably on the
regimental scale... maybe a couple per subsector.  The rest conventional
infantry brought in by landers, etc.

> Perhaps the Marines would, like their late 20th century USMC
> counterparts, consist of infantry with a significant armor component. 

Depends on what's "significant" to you.  It's very minor in the USMC, there
are 4 tank batallions (2 active, 2 reserve), when there are that many
divisions (though the 4th is the parent division for all the reserve units).

RCVGs answer is above. :-)

> Meanwhile, Imperial Army jump troops are mostly infantry, with little to
> no armor component (see the 82d Airborne for an example).  These
> differences would make Imperial Army jump troops easier to deploy, and
> Imperial Marine units more self-sufficient.

Didn't the Airborne units use Sheridans?  Did the M8 AGS ever get produced?
I've got the data for it (in fact it's the assumption for FM 17-15 Tank
Platoon), but I don't know much about it and haven't heard of it (and we don't
cover it in AFVID).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:17:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: OT: batten down the hatches...

Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net> writes (regarding the late Carlos Hathcock):

> As a further comment (if I'm gonna get flamed, I might as well work at
> earning it) I rather agree with the fellow who mentioned something to the
> effect that being a highly skilled killer is nothing to brag about.

I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)

Considering that the closest to war you'll probably ever be is watching
the "History Channel", you should thank God (or whoever) that there are
those rare men like Gunney Hathcock that have the courage and conviction
to take on a morally repugnent task, which lesser men would refuse to
touch, a task which gives the professionals themselves no joy, and performed
that odious duty to the best of their ability.  Hathcock *NEVER* bragged
about his career in 'Nam and, when put up for the Silver Star (for rescuing
the seven Marines from the burning AmphiTrack that almost killed him),
refused the award *THREE* times in a row.  He always maintained that
what he did for his country was "nothing special".

The quiet bravery demonstrated by Hathcock and his peers is a testimonial
that rare men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before
personal moral comfort.  We can all learn from such men.

The next time you feel like slandering the honored dead, try looking
at the bigger picture before mouthing off. :^(

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:27:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Ouch!  You worked with the old 1.0 or there abouts Lightwave?  I'm useing
5.5.  The other day I saw some screen shots of the old 1.0 from the first
Video Toasters, and I nearly laughed myself silly.  To quote some
advertising copy, "We've come a long baby".  Good to see another, at least
ex-, Lightwaver out there on the TML :)

Jesse





>Texturing is really the longest
>>and most tedious process.
>>
>>Jesse
>
>If it is the newer brother of the lightwave I used years ago with the Amiga
>and Video Toaster, it always takes time and I envy your patience and skill.
>
>TV
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>------------
>"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
>David Crockett
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:27:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

SPEW!!!!!!  Dammit, there goes another keyboard :)

Jesse





>steve daniels wrote:
>
>> Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
>> it before.
>
>The Donosev IIRC, first appeared in World Builder's Handbook, and was
>also in the TNE rulebook, as well.
>
>> Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
>> be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
>> The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
>> a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
>> the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
>
>Awww, c'mon...what's _wrong_ with a starship that looks like it's a
>monopoly house with a boll weevil's nose sticking out the front door?
>;-P
>
>-- 
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:38:29 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglasg@pogo.WV.TEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and sensors
that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far, far
away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).

IMTU, a scout that rolls 'scoutship' multiple times during mustering out
gets a Donosev.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev


>
>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>> brclif@digital.net writes:
>>
>> <<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
>>  I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>>   >>
>>
>> and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>
>Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
>it before.
>
>Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
>be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
>The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
>a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
>the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
>[really good simile that might offend some deleted]
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:11:51 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

Date sent:      	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:00:59 -0500 (EST)
From:           	Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>

>On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>> We apparently have large numbers of cultures which survived more or less
>> intact throughout some 1500+ years of Vilani rule. If the Vilani did have a
>> policy of absorbsion they would not have survived. Now it might be that all
>> these cultures were reconstructed during the RoM and/or Long Night, but to
>> me that doesn't make sense either. To start with, linguistically they would
>> be about as far removed from Vilani as the French are from Latin which
>> does not appear to be the case. Also their cultures should (IMHO) show a
>> far greater Vilani influence than appears to be the case. My theory is that

>I have much greater hopes (if that's the right word) for people's ability
>to manufacture themselves radically new identities, so I (at least) don't
>find this particularly hard to believe.  Or at least, I find it much more
>believable than the idea that they _were_ preserved over some 2000-6000
>years of Vilani domination.

The problem I have with this is, why? Why do all these people (who are for
all intents and purposes Vilani) decide across multiple worlds to reconstruct
themselves as a long dead culture? After all they start as Vilani, a culture
fundimentally resistant to radical changes and then for some reason they
then radically change their culture leaving little or no trace of their Vilani roots.

>> "assimilated" (precedent: the Leoskalth); but as a general rule, the many
>> alien cultures the Vilani conquered during the Consolidation Wars were
>> allowed to continue to exist so long as they did not threaten overall Vilani
>> dominance.
>
>So how does this make the Ziru Sirka any different from the Third
>Imperium?

The ZS is a single monolithic culture (well actually single with significant
regional differences) with pockets/reservations of other cultures. These other
cultures are heavily restricted in respect to movement and face other
"discrimitation" (heavier taxes, Vilani governors etc).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #208
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 209



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vilani Assimilation
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? 
Re: [Debate] Sir Renner 1
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: OT: batten down the hatches...
Re: [Debate] Solomani Sam resp Sir Renner 1
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Worldbuilding
Re: Pyramid
re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Vilani Assimilation
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: OT: FCC update
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:11:51 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani Assimilation

Date sent:      	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:25:44 -0700
From:           	Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>

>You can find similar references of Vilani assimilation in the original
>Library Data LBBs and DGP's Vilani & Vargr.  Although the latter is
>written from the Vilani view point and doesn't use words like assimilate
>using stuff like "benefits of our culture" instead.  I think the Vilani
>assimilation is pretty clear in the OTU.

The problem is you have all these minor races who's culture apparently
survived thousands of years of Vilani cultural assimilation more or less
intact. Now either a) the Vilani botched their attempts at assililation in an
unbelievably big way (which IMHO doesn't fit terribly well), b) all these
races recreated themselves with absolutely no reference to or evidence of
their Vilani culture during the Long Night (again IMHO unlikely) or c) the
supposed Vilani assimilation didn't actually happen but was in fact a
deliberate misrepresentation for political ends during the RoM.

When I look at it, option c seems to be the simplest and most likely.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:24:22 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

In a message dated 2/26/99 6:02:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< What would your feeling be if BITS published, say, a 40 page A4 (that's
 approximately the same size as the GT books) or 40 page A5 (101/LBB size)
 adventure module range with GT and T4 stats (T4 because it is pretty easy
 to convert back and is likely to be compatible with T5, if the drafts are
 to be believed)?
 
 What would your feelings be if these where art light like the GDW LBB
 Adventures?
 
 What if some of these were M:Generic 1100s or M:0?
 
 Just curious.....
 
 Dom >>

		THAT"S  THE TICKET MAN!   That's what the Old Marquis LIKES!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:32:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? 

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Which brings up the question:  Which service has more jump troop units -
> > the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army?  

<<snip>>
> 
> I think that the large majority of Imperial Marines infantry would be jump
> trained.  RCVG says Imperial Marines were mostly organized in regiments, which
> contain three task force headquarters that draw from a pool of 18 companies (9
> lift infantry, 5 meson artillery batteries, two lift cavalry, a grav tank
> company, and a commando company) to divide amongst the three task forces as
> required.  The Imperial Marine Task Force TOE in Striker II is only one
> possible config.
> 
> The Imperium maintained a very limited number of permanent divisions.  For the
> Imperial Army, it was probably a limited number of units, probably on the
> regimental scale... maybe a couple per subsector.  The rest conventional
> infantry brought in by landers, etc.
> 
In my ref's TU, there is at least one division of Imperial Army jump
troops in the Spinward Marches circa 1100 (our campaign is set just
prior to the FFW).  However, the regiments normally operate
independently.

> > Perhaps the Marines would, like their late 20th century USMC
> > counterparts, consist of infantry with a significant armor component.
> 
> Depends on what's "significant" to you.  It's very minor in the USMC, there
> are 4 tank batallions (2 active, 2 reserve), when there are that many
> divisions (though the 4th is the parent division for all the reserve units).
> 
> RCVGs answer is above. :-)
> 
Yes, but the USMC (and the Imperial Marine TOEs I've seen) also have a
fair number of APCs.  The 82d has none.

> > Meanwhile, Imperial Army jump troops are mostly infantry, with little to
> > no armor component (see the 82d Airborne for an example).  These
> > differences would make Imperial Army jump troops easier to deploy, and
> > Imperial Marine units more self-sufficient.
> 
> Didn't the Airborne units use Sheridans?  Did the M8 AGS ever get produced?
> I've got the data for it (in fact it's the assumption for FM 17-15 Tank
> Platoon), but I don't know much about it and haven't heard of it (and we don't
> cover it in AFVID).
> 
3/73 Armor (Abn), the Sheridan battalion in the 82d, was deactivated in
July of 1997 (IIRC).  Sadly, the M8 AGS has not been produced, since the
powers-that-be at EAM ("echelons above me") decided that meeting payroll
was more important than procuring the AGS.  Given that hard choice, I
can understand the decision.  That doesn't mean that I _like_ it.... 

> Gary

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:40:09 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Sir Renner 1

This debate so far has ignored the power of suggestion.  By this I mean
the suggestive power of reasoned persuasion.

The Imperium, being clearly the largest interstellar organization in
known space (both in terms of area and world included, and number of
sophonts who claim citizenship) would have essentially no chance of
functioning without a fairly decentralized form of government.  As long
as communication is no faster than the speed of travel, governance will
in almost all cases be on a system-wide basis at most.  Thus, no matter
whether the person in charge of the system is called Marquis or
President, it will not matter on an interstellar basis.  The Third
Imperium, unlike it's two predecessors, is properly content to govern
space and trade, but not the planets upon which people live.

On the other hand, the responsibility of the Imperium is not just
physical space, and the physical and intellectual property that is
traded between the stars.  The Imperium is also responsible to both it's
planetary and sophont citizens.  Without planets to live on, and
sophonts to live on those planets, the Imperium would be a poor place,
both economically and socially.

The Imperium does need a written list of rights for the planets and
sophonts who are citizens, and that list needs to have legal power over
the bum in the gutter and the Emperor in the same sense.  Some policies
have been common to each Emperor (such as calling murder a crime), but
these have never been divorced from the whim of the Emperor who can
change this at any time.

The ancient Terran "Bill of Rights" has been put forth as a possible
template for such a listing of rights.  While I as an Imperial citizen
may see some of the rights listed in the Terran listing as being
irrelevant or bad in an Imperial setting, I believe the idea is sound. 
One of the most important of such rights is what another person called
"the right to vote with one's feet."  The right to move to a place where
the individual sophont will be able to be the best able to serve the
Imperium and himself.

This listing of rights would be fairly straightforward to implement at
an Imperial level (between the stars), but would be much more difficult
to implement on each world individually.  We come then to suggestion.

Forcible persuasion can take many forms, from friendly meetings between
world governments and the Imperial presence there, to the searing flame
of atomic missiles and meson blasts.  The proposed list of rights could
be enabled on each world in the Imperium by the use of forcible
persuasion without making large changes in planetary governments (there
may be exceptions, but they will be very few).  This type of LIMITED
meddling in member worlds is not without precedent.  Witness the power
and authority of the Office of Calendar Compliance, which was formed in
the very dawn of the Third Imperium, and continues today to serve the
limited purpose put forth in it's charter.

I am not suggesting the Imperium should use such forcible persuasion to
enforce such policies on individual planets.  On the other hand, the
reasoned persuasion I suggest is much less intimidating.  The Emperor
must suggest to each of the worlds of the Imperium that these rights be
implemented on the world.  The worlds may choose to ignore those
suggestions, however, if such suggestions are not followed Imperial
favor will turn away from that world.  Now this is not to say that bad
things will happen to such a world, just that good things won't happen.

  Sir Renner

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:46:34 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Actually, isn't that four -hardpoints-?  As in you can arm it if you want
to, but the stock config isn't armed?  I like how you handle YTU muster, but
I'd be tempted to sell the ugly b!#@h :)   I say this one Scout to another
(I'm currently running a Scout in Roger Barr's PBEM).  Even though she is
fugly, I do kinda' like 'er.  Doesn't mean I'll use her as wallpaper though.

Jesse




>I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
>starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and
sensors
>that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far,
far
>away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).
>
>IMTU, a scout that rolls 'scoutship' multiple times during mustering out
>gets a Donosev.
>
>douglas
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:00 PM
>Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
>
>
>>
>>
>>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>>> brclif@digital.net writes:
>>>
>>> <<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
>>>  I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>>>   >>
>>>
>>> and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>>
>>Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
>>it before.
>>
>>Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
>>be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
>>The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
>>a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
>>the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
>>[really good simile that might offend some deleted]
>>
>>--
>>Bloo
>>Resounding Technology
>>Creators of RogerWilco
>>http://www.resounding.com/
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:50:38 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT: batten down the hatches...

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Mark Cook wrote:
>Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net> writes (regarding the late Carlos Hathcock):
>
>I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
>(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)
>
Oh for heaven's sake. Calm down, back off, and consider that other political
views may be as validly held as your own, even if you disagree with them.

There's a difference between valuing someone's bravery and praising them for
killing people. We can admire people who put themselves in the line of fire on
our behalf (even in wars we may not agree with), and also consider it tasteless
to treat their kill-rate like a football statistic.

I'm sure Mr Hathcock was a nice guy, a brave man and an excellent soldier. Why
it is appropriate that he be discussed in this forum I'm not entirely sure.

> rest of email and 17-line signature(!) clipped

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:04:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate] Solomani Sam resp Sir Renner 1

Dear Sir:

I couldn't agree with your letter more. I have always thought that it was an
ABOMINATION that this Imperium allowed member planets to rule as religious
dictatorships or secular dictatorships for example. This was the problem that
I had with the concept of "governance of the space between the stars". I felt
though that unless the Imperium was a representitive democracy, how could they
take the moral highground and force member planets to democratize...

Solomani Sam

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:07:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
> starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and sensors
> that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far, far
> away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).

The problem is, those deckplans in the WBH sort of left out just _where_
those turrets are. The main part of the hull... the big a-frame-ey
looking thing, is mostly fuel and drives. The thing that _looks_ like a
turret, under the snout, is actually the remote probe launch and control
center...ideas folks?

(And right about now Jesse's looking frantically at his models, almost
ready for submission, going "Turrets? there are TURRETS on this
somewhere?" ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:13:20 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

In a message dated 2/26/99 3:05:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 The Donosev IIRC, first appeared in World Builder's Handbook, and was
 also in the TNE rulebook, as well.
  >>

I'm confused. Everybody on the list says this, but I have Grand Survey and it
has the Donosev too. Was WBH before or after GS/GC (Grand Census)?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:52:15 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?

Yes.

>>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...

IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.
AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:11:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Worldbuilding

Guys,

It may be an idea if those of you doing the World Building programs
consider sending Rob Prior (or myself) a copy of the file format/structure.
Then we could see if it is feasible to add export/export options to Metator
or IGS2.

Just a thought.

Dom

PS Rob, I'm not volunteering you for this - I just thought it'd be worth
having a look at.....

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:09:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

><< Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %.  >>

0% or 17.5% on certain goods in the UK. Essentials tend not to have VAT.
Income tax basic is <25% up to mid -20k s IIRC, and then 40%.
Fuel tax is very high compared to the US - we pay 70p/litre for unleaded
fuel. (ie 0.7 GBP)
But bear in mind we do have free health care as a universal standard.

And we'll pay off lend-lease sometime ;-)


>Is this in addition to a high income tax as well? if so, I am SO glad I live
>in the states...My sympathies Herr Greiman...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:05:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Quarterly hate-fest?

 "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Does anyone remember discussing Traveller? (no, delete that, Dougherty,
>delete that NOW!)

Well, not being a TML great old one* (Doug B, Eris R, Bruce 1, Bruce 2,
Carlos,  Rob P, Leonard, Dave G, Joseph D, James L, Steven H, Don McK,Jeff
Z**...amongst others) or a great old one who has passed into history but is
remembered fondly (Craig B, Joe Walsh, Nick Munn, Andy L, Jo Grant, Guy
Garnett, Harold H... amongst others) I still feel cheated that I missed the
feudal technocracy and Near-c rock debates when they first came around. If
we're going to have a flame fest, please can we re-run a classic? Not
pirates - that's like classic trek - it's always getting repeated and looks
more dated each time. Fighters was more fun

* Excludes Marc and Loren
** I'm bound to have forgotten people here (who else should be here?)

>On a more serious note; does anyone have any hard data on polities which
>survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit in MT,
>but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?

There's a TD which has a concise history of the 3rd Imperium which mentions
some of the Solomani ones (17?).

The Solomani Rim and S&A also mention them.

Can't think of much more, but there may be something in Knightfall - ISTR
Carlos saying something..

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:26:57 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Actually, I'm not panicking, as I'm 98% certain that the description in WBH
(which is exclusively what I've been going from) says 4 **hardpoints**, not
turrets.  Guess I had better check the playtest info for "First In" to see
if Jeff said turrets or hardpoints.
Jesse



- -

>Douglas Glatz wrote:
>>
>> I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
>> starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and
sensors
>> that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far,
far
>> away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).
>
>The problem is, those deckplans in the WBH sort of left out just _where_
>those turrets are. The main part of the hull... the big a-frame-ey
>looking thing, is mostly fuel and drives. The thing that _looks_ like a
>turret, under the snout, is actually the remote probe launch and control
>center...ideas folks?
>
>(And right about now Jesse's looking frantically at his models, almost
>ready for submission, going "Turrets? there are TURRETS on this
>somewhere?" ;-)
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:34:13 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Assimilation

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> The problem is you have all these minor races who's culture apparently
> survived thousands of years of Vilani cultural assimilation more or less
> intact. Now either a) the Vilani botched their attempts at assililation in an
> unbelievably big way (which IMHO doesn't fit terribly well), b) all these
> races recreated themselves with absolutely no reference to or evidence of
> their Vilani culture during the Long Night (again IMHO unlikely) or c) the
> supposed Vilani assimilation didn't actually happen but was in fact a
> deliberate misrepresentation for political ends during the RoM.
> 
> When I look at it, option c seems to be the simplest and most likely.
> 
> Andrew etc.

I think there are more options than what you mentioned.  One is the
assimilation wasn't total annihilation of the original culture.  The
acculturation of a world was only partial.  It had an official culture
for business, public life, and government (the Vilani culture) and a
suppressed unofficial culture (the original culture), for private life. 
I'm not sure but isn't this what Hebrews did while slaves of the
Egyptians (I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

I think many worlds would try to retain some of their original culture
during the reign of the Ziru Sirka.  A resurgence in 'the old ways'
would occur during the RoM on such worlds.  The resurgent culture
probably wont be identical to its' pre-Vilani influence, despite the
claims of the culture in question.

In a few cases it may have been necessary for the Ziru Sirka to
annihilate a culture.  I have a few minor races IMTU that have retained
the Vilani culture.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:36:30 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/26/99 3:05:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
>
><< 
> The Donosev IIRC, first appeared in World Builder's Handbook, and was
> also in the TNE rulebook, as well.
>  >>
>
>I'm confused. Everybody on the list says this, but I have Grand Survey and it
>has the Donosev too. Was WBH before or after GS/GC (Grand Census)?

It first appeared, to my knowledge, in CT Supplement 9 (Fighting Ships, page
13), then again in Grand Survey, then again in WBH.

M

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:34:17 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: OT: FCC update

"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> writes:
>Since what the FCC does to the internet will effect everyone on this list
>(well, maybe only those of us in North America), 

Even more local. Only those of you in the Unites States of America. The
rest of us aren't bothered, even if we live in North America.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:36:42 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

You forgot the end equation (so did I for that matter :)

IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
- --------------------------------------------------------------
= OUCH!!!!!

And since it's a frontier cruiser Clif, it's got the legs to jump after you
and catch up if you're in a slow jump ship.

Jesse




> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
>>Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?
>
>Yes.
>
>>>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>
>IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.
>AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:39:00 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglasg@pogo.WV.TEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Since I run my campaign on the frontiers of the Imperium, I *always* ensure
that there is at least one weapon per turret, and the turrets are installed.
That's IMTU, and my campaign appears to be 'darker' than most.

And actually, I *am* using the Donosev as my wallpaper, and will update it
with new versions as they come out!  :)  It's a great treatment of the IISS
workhorse!

Remember, they'll give Type 'S' scouts to _anyone_ who manages to survive a
Scout career - you've got to EARN a Donosev!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev


>Actually, isn't that four -hardpoints-?  As in you can arm it if you want
>to, but the stock config isn't armed?  I like how you handle YTU muster,
but
>I'd be tempted to sell the ugly b!#@h :)   I say this one Scout to another
>(I'm currently running a Scout in Roger Barr's PBEM).  Even though she is
>fugly, I do kinda' like 'er.  Doesn't mean I'll use her as wallpaper
though.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
>>starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and
>sensors
>>that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far,
>far
>>away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).
>>
>>IMTU, a scout that rolls 'scoutship' multiple times during mustering out
>>gets a Donosev.
>>
>>douglas
>>
>>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>>Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:00 PM
>>Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> In a message dated 2/26/99 11:55:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>>>> brclif@digital.net writes:
>>>>
>>>> <<  If I've ever a gunner in a campaign and we stumble upon a Donosev,
>>>>  I'm gonna blast it in the name of taste.  : )
>>>>   >>
>>>>
>>>> and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>>>
>>>Where does the Donosev come from?  I've never seen or heard of
>>>it before.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, (brace yourself, Jesse, Brian and whoever else may
>>>be responsible), I have to concur with the sentiment above.
>>>The Donosev will never appear as my wallpaper.  Not when I have
>>>a beautiful Empress Marava being loaded at a starport.  At least
>>>the Marava appears functional and not like an *****
>>>[really good simile that might offend some deleted]
>>>
>>>--
>>>Bloo
>>>Resounding Technology
>>>Creators of RogerWilco
>>>http://www.resounding.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #209
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 210



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump training
Re: OT: FCC update
Re: GT Starmercs question
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
World Hooks
[Debate] Gallatin 4 resp Solomani Sam 1, 2
Re: GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships
Re: Vilani Assimilation
Re: World Hooks
Smallpox
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Milieu E21
Lifting off
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Milieu E21: TL and Timeline

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:54:29 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump training

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 6:01 PM
Subject: Jump training


>>Which brings up the question: Which service has more jump troop units -
>>the Inperial marines or the Imperial Army? Since meteoric assault has
>>aspects to both amphibious and airborne assault, I would expect that
>>both services would have jump-capable infantry units
>
>All Marines are jump trained.  Only Imperial Army units wear the Jump
>Certification badge.
>For them it's something special.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say the Army has more "Jump Trained" and certainly two or three
times more on active Jump status.  The Marines would only have a few shock
troops on status.  The Army being about 20-25 times larger than the Marines
would have about 10% on Jump status.  That is if future military
configurations match present day ones.  Again I'm basing it on U.S. and the
old Soviet Army Order Of Battle.

Marines are amphibious by nature and I can se this would be the way to go in
the future (I can think of a least one movie that this is kinda
demonstrated, Aliens II) and the Jump Troops that lead the assault are the
Army Rangers in the U.S. at least.  Could some one speak on the other
countries, UK, Can, Aus, NZ.... I know that is list I just made is rather
biased to English speaking and for that I'm sorry as  I'm not trying to
slight anyone.  Maybe the English speakers are more war like.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:46:26 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglasg@pogo.WV.TEK.COM>
Subject: Re: OT: FCC update

I'm not disagreeing with you, except to wonder whether the Canadian ISPs
have independant uplink/downlinks, or if they route onto the US backbone?
If they do, then this *could* affect you as well...

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: OT: FCC update


>"Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM> writes:
>>Since what the FCC does to the internet will effect everyone on this list
>>(well, maybe only those of us in North America),
>
>Even more local. Only those of you in the Unites States of America. The
>rest of us aren't bothered, even if we live in North America.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:57:30 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GT Starmercs question

At 08:45 am 2/26/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Having only just received Starmercs, I must say on initial perusal
that
>it appears pretty good, but I have a few questions that perhaps the
>GURPS gurus can answer for me.
>
>In the ironmongery section, energy banks for the different vehicles
are
>described as storting megajoules, rather than megawatt-seconds. Can
this
>be clarified?  I really want to clear this up for my Vehicles design

	They're the same thing. Joules are *energy*, watts are *power*,
which is an energy rate: energy divided by time. So when you multiply
power (megawatts) by time (seconds), you get energy back out
(megajoules).
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:45:21 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

At 12:23 pm 2/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I second that!!!!  Let's get out the fire extinguishers (or just
vent the
>place to vacuum :) and get on with the fun stuff of the TML.  We
don't want
>Ditzie showing up with one of her riot-suppression toys, now do
we???

	All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:01:09 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks

I must confess that very little of the recent discussion on the
list has been very interesting to me. I'm getting tired of
reading digests full of gratuitous insults, crude and vulgar
language, responses to these, and criticism of the originators of
all of the above. I still wish the chief offender would either
clean up or clear out, but I'm not going to belabor the point.

But quite apart from that, discussions of CT, MT, BITS, GURPS,
Spinward Marches, Imperial politics c. 1100, and software limited
to Win95 or Mac, have very little relevance to my campaign.
Extensive discussions of how many lasers can dance in a turret,
or the possible variations on combat systems don't do much for
me, either.  Subtract all these, these, and there hasn't been
much so far this year that I can use.

So, let me propose something a little bit different, something
that's not necessarily tied to a given ruleset or campaign area.
That is, societies and cultures that might be found _somewhere_
in a Traveller universe.

I have a fat textbook on world history which I've started mining for ideas
about societies, situations, events, and personalities I might use in my
own TU, and I thought I'd share some of them with the list. Here are a half
dozen "world hooks".

1. Universities are heavily politicized, and don't cooperate so
much as they compete, so archaeology is conducted a la Indiana
Jones.  Valuable sites of pre-human settlement are claimed by
institutions which don't have the resources to investigate them
properly but refuse to let anyone else do so.

2. Certain prehuman settlement remains are famed for their
aesthetic appeal and are important tourist attractions. There are
a few which are nearly as good but much less well known (or even
undiscovered) and many more that are overrated, at least by the
local inhabitants. 

3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world is
fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have been
using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their beasts
for centuries now.

4. The local environment is cold, thin atmosphere; very warm and
humid; or very hot and dry. Protective gear of some kind is a
necessity for humans who live or work outside the centers of
settlement, but the local life forms are well adapted to the
conditions.

5. The culture has a peculiar taboo against writing and depends
on oral culture, but maintains a suprisingly high tech level
through rote learning, memorization, and apprenticeship.

6. The culture is very strongly family-oriented. Unlike most
Solomani cultures, it has retained social organization along
kinship lines through TL advances.  Probably more typical in
vilani culture than Solomani. Possible models in SF&F are
Heinlein's free traders (Citizen of the Galaxy), and the Tsurani
in the "Empire" trilogy by RE Feist & Janny Wurtz.

Any comments or suggestions for variations or development? Shall
I do more?
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:11:49 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [Debate] Gallatin 4 resp Solomani Sam 1, 2

"Gallatin"

Solomani Sam advocates a radical change in the structure of
Imperial governance, abolishing in toto the entire edifice that
we have built over the past thousand years.  The justification
offered is previous success of his proposed structure, and
corruption and mediocrity in the current structure.

The model offered is that of the Federal Republic, with a written
delineation of powers and charter of individual
rights/protections, an elective legislature and executive, and an
independent judiciary.  This model has its attractions; it
creates a government that is responsive to the will of the
majority of the people, with protections against oppression of
the minority in certain ways.  Yet the model is not without its
flaws, and those flaws are such that it becomes an impractical
model for our Imperium, with its myriad worlds.

First among these flaws is the mediocrity that is decried as a
problem of the hereditary nobility.  Elected leaders must appeal
to the majority of the electorate; since the electorate covers
the entire spectrum of views, the candidate that will succeed is
the one that offends least, rather than the one that is best
qualified.  Our hereditary nobility, largely cognizant of their
responsibilities, generally receive an education and experience
designed to prepare them for their responsibilities as
administrators.  Additionally, higher-ranking nobles are
responsible for ensuring that those below them discharge their
responsibilities reliably.  The topmost levels, the Archdukes and
the senior dukes of the sectors, can be removed from their
positions at any time, and their heirs must be confirmed by the
Emperor before ascending to the responsibilities.  Furthermore,
the succession to the Iridium Throne is itself not automatic; the
Emperor must explicitly designate a heir, and the Moot must
confirm the choice.  This gives us a level of protection against
mediocrity which no elective system can match.

Solomani Sam characterizes the Federal Republican model as
'Solomani government'.  The accuracy of this characterization is
to be questioned, especially as pertains to the Federal
Republican influence on the government of Solomani space.  On the
interstellar level, this model has a poor track record; the
domination of the Ziru Sirka by the Terran Confederation ended
with a proposal to, in essence, loot the Ziru Sirka for the
benefit of the Confederation - an expression, no doubt, of the
'popular will' of the franchised citizens of the Confederation,
rather than that of the (disenfranchised) people of the Ziru
Sirka.  This was only prevented by a senior (unelected) military
officer, Fleet Admiral Hiroshi Estigarriba, going outside the
elective system and seizing control of both the Confederation and
the Ziru Sirka, and proclaiming an Empire and Protectorate.

A few hundred years ago, the Solomani demanded and received
'self-determination'.  This has resulted in the Solomani Sphere
that we see today, with a governmental structure more
characteristic of the absolutist dictatorships that opposed the
Federal Republics in the days prior to Solomani unification
against the Vilani.  As with those absolutist governments,
disagreement with the ideology of the ruling clique is classed as
treason, there are secret police spying on the ordinary citizen,
and the government is unresponsive to changing opinions among the
common people, and unconcerned about the needs and desires
thereof.

The other disadvantage to the Federal Republic as proposed by
Solomani Sam is inherent in the model itself, and which does not
and cannot occur in our present feudal structure:  Power comes
with election, not with competence, and the priority of the
elected power-holders rapidly becomes to regain or maintain power
through further elections.  This leads to a never-ending cycle of
campaigning and fundraising for campaigns, taking time away from
doing the job for which the person was actually elected.  More,
to the extent that the jobs are performed at all, they are
subject not to reasoned consideration of the expressed desires
and needs of the governed, but to the people's fickle whims of
the moment, as few elected officials are willing to look beyond
the next election.  To impose limitations on how long an elected
official serves is counterproductive; in the interval between the
final election and the termination of tenure, the official,
though elected, is unaccountable even to the very people to whom
the position is owed.

Our present structure inherently guards against these defects,
but provides no incentive, positive or negative, to ensure
quality of performance.  A system of review and disenfeoffment
from above, in response to conditions below, provides that
incentive; position is dependent on performance.  Hereditariness
causes no problems under this system; succession would not be
automatic: the noble would specifically designate the heir, and
be responsible for the proper education and training of that
heir, who in turn would be confirmed by the next-higher noble to
whom fealty is owed - or possibly by Moot-like councils at lower
levels; Dilgaadin's ideas, though perhaps more radical than is
warranted, contain that which may reasonably be considered.

We must make the Imperium more responsive and more active in the
governance of the Member Worlds, not make it an Imperium in name
only, but following some other form of governance.  Neither
radical change nor stasis is an appropriate response to the
stresses that lurk below our placid surface; judicious
consideration of careful adjustment is the only way to accomplish
our goals.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:10:16 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Solomani Sleeper Ships

It's been out of print for twenty years, but the old Judges Guild "Drakne
Station" could substitute for a Terran sleeper ship, it was a huge planetoid
vessel with workable deck plan. Like much of the Judges Guild stuff from the
early days of Traveller, it looks pretty bad in terms of the quality that we
have grown used to.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:18:13 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Vilani Assimilation

Date sent:      	Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:34:13 -0700
From:           	Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>

>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>> The problem is you have all these minor races who's culture apparently
>> survived thousands of years of Vilani cultural assimilation more or less
>> intact. Now either a) the Vilani botched their attempts at assililation in an
>> unbelievably big way (which IMHO doesn't fit terribly well), b) all these
>> races recreated themselves with absolutely no reference to or evidence of
>> their Vilani culture during the Long Night (again IMHO unlikely) or c) the
>> supposed Vilani assimilation didn't actually happen but was in fact a
>> deliberate misrepresentation for political ends during the RoM.

>I think there are more options than what you mentioned.  One is the
>assimilation wasn't total annihilation of the original culture.  The
>acculturation of a world was only partial.  It had an official culture
>for business, public life, and government (the Vilani culture) and a
>suppressed unofficial culture (the original culture), for private life. 
>I'm not sure but isn't this what Hebrews did while slaves of the
>Egyptians (I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

I think we may be talking at cross purposes here. What you are proposing
above is fairly much the way I see things too, just I don't call that
"assimilation" (I call it supression). The problem as I see it, is that if the
Vilani had set out to make every one Vilani, after 2,000 years they would
have essentially annihilated all but a handful of cultures. One only has to
look at the Turkish assimilation of Asia Minor or the Swedish assimilation
of Scania. In both cases the local cultures were pretty much erased in
short order by the use of quite "mild" policies.

If I may, I'll repost something I sent to the TWG awhile ago, which sort of
outlines what I think happened.

*********************************************************************************
From:           	Self <Single-user mode>
To:             	hiwg-twg@qrc.com
Subject:        	Vilani Imperialism (was: Darmine )
Send reply to:  	a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
Date sent:      	Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:54:45 +1300

Date sent:      	Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:40:10 -0500 (EST)
From:           	Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>

>It seems to me this points up a troubling (to me) discrepancy in how
>Z.S.'s governance actually worked, as described in published and web-based
>stuff.  On one hand they're supposed to have assimilated all the minor
>human species into their own civilization and emphasized (above almost
>anything else) cultural homogeneity.  On the other hand, in the 3I there
>are all these vibrant very non-Vilani minor-humans running around after
>millenia of brutal & thorough repression _as separate societies_ by the
>Vilani.

This is my explaination:

When the Vilani first moved into space and encountered numerous aliens less 
technologically advanced than themselves they were at first motivated primarily 
by humanitarian/paternalistic ideals. Here were all these "primitive barbarians" 
(noble savages if you will) who were just standing by ready to receive the 
benefits of Vilani civilisation. So the Vilani were fairly free with their technology 
and traded readily. Sure they did it on a commercial basis (after all it's fine to 
be a humanitarian, but they weren't about to make a loss doing it), and they 
made sure that these aliens were aware of their responsabilities under the 
patent system to pay royalties etc. but it was done for the benefit of the aliens. 
So over time these first aliens absorbed Vilani technology, but there was no 
real attempt to absorb these cultures. What happened was they were brought 
into the Vilani patent system, but other than that their cultures were pretty 
much left intact.

Now these aliens traded further out and spread Vilani technology further. 
However these cultures had not fully absorded Vilani culture and therefore often 
were less scruplous in ensuring that the patent system was spread along with 
the technology. Thus the technology spread but the patent system didn't. Now 
to the Vilani this is intolerable, "look at what we have done for them and this is 
how they repay us!". To the Vilani this is the worst form of ingratitude. The 
Vilani response was simple, bring them all under Vilani control.

There was never any attempt to spread Vilani culture to either group of aliens, 
all that was intended was to bring them absolutely into the patent system. If 
they adopted Vilani culture all well and good, but it was never an aim. However 
conquering these aliens cost money, and since (in the Vilani eyes) it was all 
their own fault, it would only seem fair to the Vilani that these aliens should be 
organised efficently to repay the costs of incorporating them. Thus Vilani work 
practices were imposed on the conquered races, but yet again, this is as far as 
it goes. The intention is not to turn the aliens into Vilani, just to defray the 
costs of conquering them.

Also, to the Vilani mindset, the uncontrolled spread of technology just could 
not be allowed to happen again. Therefore these aliens must be restricted and 
controlled (another cost which has to be defrayed). How was this achieved? 
Ghettos, bundle all the aliens into a "reservation" and keep them firmly under 
the thumb. It might seem harsh, but remember it is all their own fault. If they 
hadn't so blantantly "bitten the hand which fed them" none of this would have 
been neccessary. Now of course some races actually thrived under the Vilani 
(eg the Newts). These were the races which adapted to Vilani cultural norms, 
quickly repaid their debt from the Consolidation Wars and showed that they 
were (in Vilani eyes) responsible citizens. These races could be allowed out of 
their reservations and participate in the interstellar community. Again no effort 
was made to introduce Vilani culture to them, after all there were no problems 
with their exisiting culture, so why spend the money to do so?

Thus the upshot of all this is that the races who's existing culture could fit 
Vilani norms were not absorbed because there was no reason to do so; and the 
others were not because it was cheaper just to restrict them.

********************************************************************************

>I think many worlds would try to retain some of their original culture
>during the reign of the Ziru Sirka.  A resurgence in 'the old ways'
>would occur during the RoM on such worlds.  The resurgent culture
>probably wont be identical to its' pre-Vilani influence, despite the
>claims of the culture in question.

Definitely, no question about that. My argument is against calling it a
deliberate policy of assimilation. IMO if the Vilani had set out to
impose a single Vilani culture on the ZS, after 2,000 years they would
have succeeded and erased virtually all traces of other cultures.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:24:54 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Hooks

In a message dated 2/26/99 6:05:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sapience@compuserve.com writes:

<< 
 Any comments or suggestions for variations or development? Shall
 I do more? >>

Hell yeah!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:29:22 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Smallpox

You know, there's something missing in canon.

When Europeans first came in contact with native Americans, Polynesians, etc.,
there were mass deaths due to smallpox.  This disease seldom killed Europeans
(I believe), but had a high mortality rate among people who had not been
exposed.  And, of course, the Europeans occasionally exploited this in what
amounted to crude early biowar.

You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
  --S

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:30:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 12:23 pm 2/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >I second that!!!!  Let's get out the fire extinguishers (or just
> vent the
> >place to vacuum :) and get on with the fun stuff of the TML.  We
> don't want
> >Ditzie showing up with one of her riot-suppression toys, now do
> we???
> 
> 	All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!

AYEEEEEE!  

I heartily second that motion!  Ditzie has been absent for far too long!  

We want Spofulam!

We want Spofulam!

We want Spofulam!

(And why isn't one of the Famille joining the Gallatin et al. debate?
The Sayat might have to speak up soon...)

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:35:48 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21

Howdy all.  Just tooting another horn, seeing if anyone toots back.
I'd thought a bit about Milieu E21 (Earth 21st century), and did a
little research.  I figured, for Traveller purposes, there would be
bunches of spaceports in the Earth system before the Vilani were
encountered.

Since I can't prognosticate, and since I don't want to pick too
blindly, I webbed over to a gov't site that lists the economies of
all nations and used that to extrapolate who would have what
spaceports.  And, without further a doo doo, for your flamebait
pleasure, I hereby present The World:

Spacefaring Nations

Just as there were three "worlds" defined in the 20th century, so
are there three types of nations in Milieu E21: those with shipyards,
those with spaceports only, and those with neither.

The list below shows the location of spaceports on Earth, the class of
spaceport, and the monetary system used by the owning nation.  Please
note that the spaceport classes vary with the timeline:

Early E21 (2020? to 2049)

All spaceports are downgraded by 1 level.

Middle E21 (2050 to 2079)

All spaceports are as shown.

Late E21 (2080 to 2118?)

All spaceports are upgraded by 1 level.  All national capitals have a
spaceport of rating 'D', OR a rating equal to the best spaceport in that
country.

Class B Spaceports

Bangkok (Thailand)          B    Baht
Brasilia (Brazil)           B    Cruziero
Boston (US)                 B    Dollar
Buffalo (US)                B    Dollar
Cherbourg (France)          B    Franc
Inch'on (Korea)             B    Won
Karachi (Pakistan)          B    Rupee
Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia)     B    Ringgit
Mar del Plata (Argentina)   B    Austral
Nagoya (Japan)              B    Yen
St. Petersburg (Russia)     B    Ruble
Santiago (Chile)            B    Peso
Tokyo (Japan)               B    Yen
?? (UK)                     B    Pound
Moon Colony                 B    Liter-of-Water *
Belt Industrial Complex     B    Liter-of-Water

* note: a Liter-of-water, or Liter for short, is roughly
equal to the cost of extracting or shipping a liter of
water to the site.  For simplicity, it's assumed to be
equally difficult to procure water at each site.  Of course,
each site has extraction problems unique to its location.
If I had to guess, I'd value a Liter at Cr1000 -- thereby
(conveniently) placing a milliliter (ML) at Cr1.  ;)
'Course, what the heck is a Credit worth?  Side note:
this would make a great profit opportunity to Vilani
traders... until the jump drive comes and drives down the
value of water... good reason to sabotage projects, eh?


Class C Spaceports

Abu Dhabi (Emirates)        C    Dirham
Ancona (Italy)              C    Lira
Antwerp (Belgium)           C    Franc
Ashdod (Israel)             C    Shekel
Canberra (Australia)        C    Dollar
Chicago (US)                C    Dollar
Copenhagen (Denmark)        C    Krone
Dublin (Ireland)            C    Pound
Hamburg (Germany)           C    Mark
Helsinki (Finland)          C    Markka
Kobe (Japan)                C    Yen
Kuwait (Kuwait)             C    Dinar
Osaka (Japan)               C    Yen
Seattle (US)                C    Dollar
Singapore (Singapore)       C    Dollar
Toronto (Canada)            C    Dollar
Vienna (Austria)            C    Shilling
Washington DC (US)          C    Dollar
?? (UK)                     C    Pound
Mars Colony                 C    Liter-of-Water
Ceres (Belt Colony)         C    Liter-of-Water


Class D Spaceports

Amsterdam (Netherlands)     D    Guilder
Arkhangel'sk (Russia)       D    Ruble
Atlanta (US)                D    Dollar
Bern (Switzerland)          D    Franc
Chiba (Japan)               D    Yen
Detroit (US)                D    Dollar
Himeji (Japan)              D    Yen
Houston (US)                D    Dollar
Jakarta (Indonesia)         D    Rupiah
Lisbon (Portugal)           D    Escudo
Madrid (Spain)              D    Peseta
Oslo (Norway)               D    Krone
Rome (Italy)                D    Lira
Stockholm (Sweden)          D    Krona
Victoria (Hong Kong)        D    Dollar
Wellington (New Zealand)    D    Dollar
?? (Germany) [2 sites]      D    Mark
?? (France)                 D    Franc
Mars Colony                 D    Liter-of-Water

Class E Spaceports

Al'Aqabah (Jordan)          E    Dinar
Calcutta (India)            E    Rupee
Cartagena (Colombia)        E    Peso
Doha (Qatar)                E    Riyal
Durban (South Africa)       E    Rand
Gdansk (Poland)             E    Zloty
Haiphong (Vietnam)          E    Dong
Jiddah (Saudi Arabia)       E    Riyal
Latakia (Syria)             E    Pound
Manama (Bahrain)            E    Dinar
Manila (Philippines)        E    Peso
Mexico City (Mexico)        E    New Peso
Muscat (Oman)               E    Riyal
Nairobi (Kenya)             E    Shilling
Piraievs (Greece)           E    Drachma
Port-of-Spain (Trinidad)    E    Dollar
Sidon (Lebanon)             E    Pound
Suez (Egypt)                E    Pound
Taipei (Taiwan)             E    Dollar
Tehran (Iran)               E    Rial
Tianjin (China)             E    Yuan
Zanzibar (Tanzania)         E    Shilling

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:33:00 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Lifting off

I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?

Does it lift off like a rocket, blasting the thrusters at the ground and
generating lots of G's?
Does it lift off like an airplane, thrusting perpendicular to gravity and
relying on streamlining for lift?
Does it lift off like a balloon, gently generating 1.01 G and floating into
the sky?

The answer, of course, will make a BIG difference to the general flavor of the
game!
  --S

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:38:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

At 12:23 PM 26/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I second that!!!!  Let's get out the fire extinguishers (or just vent the
>place to vacuum :) and get on with the fun stuff of the TML.  We don't want
>Ditzie showing up with one of her riot-suppression toys, now do we???
>
>Jesse
>

        Yes, if fact I *do* want to see that....  I run a Cp2020 game, and
*good* "scare the snot out of the cyberpsychotic combat-monster players"
riot weapons are *HARD* to find!

        <<Takes cover, breaks out popcorn, notepad and video camera and
waits for FS product demo team>>

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:49:10 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline

Hello again all, tooting a little more on E21:

I want some critique of the timeline.  Can you live with it?
My big concerns are TL and Contragrav.  I think delaying
the development of both is a Good Thing; the question is,
delay how far?

Ok, here's the timeline.  Phrases in double quotes are adventure
titles, some from me, some from another gentleman contributor
whose name escapes me (help!!).

Timeline

Early E21
2027: Luna Drydock on-line
2029: Mars One and Ceres One established
2031: Contragrav discovered  *<--- maybe NOT
2033: The Martian Land Rush
2034-2064: Exodus to the Belt
2042: Terra reaches TL9
2044: Micro-jump drive tested ("The Wreck of the Endeavour")

Middle E21
2050: "Deadly Seed"
2059: "Phobos Station"
2063 - 2065: Martian Revolution
2066: "Outland"
2068: "Belter Complex"

Late E21/Early 1IW
2080: Contragrav discovered (experimental and expensive)*
2080: Martian terraforming "Project Cobalt"
2082: "Icarus One", "Ship to Shore", and "Daedalus One"
2094: "Daedalus One"
2098: Contragrav debugged, still expensive*
2099: Terra reaches TL10 ?
2100: "The Jupiter Run"
2105: Nusku, Gashidda, Alpha Centauri
2108, 2110: Terra reaches TL11 ?
2118: First Interstellar War begins
2120: Terra reaches TL12 ?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #210
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 26 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 211



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump training
Re: Smallpox
Re: Smallpox
Re: Lifting off
Re: World Hooks
Re: Smallpox
Re: Lifting off
Re: Milieu E21
What's green and lives under bridges?
Re: Lifting off
[Debate]  The Old marquis responds to Sir Renner 1
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
Re: Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)
Re: Smallpox
Re: [Debate] Old Marquis resp. to Solomani Sam resp Sir Renner 1
Donosevs as Mustering-out Benefits?
Re: Vilani Assimilation
Re: Donosevs as Mustering-out Benefits?
Famile Spofulam Home Stereo/PA System/Riot Control Device
Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:43:56 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump training

I've been following this discussion and thought it might be useful to weigh in
with a little canon data on Marine v. Army jump troops.  I pulled out my copy
of "Fifth Frontier War".  Since it depicts a sizable chunk of the Imperial
military, I feel that it constitutes a valid sample to study.  When I look it
over I found 8 regiments of jump capable Marines, as well as the semi-jump
capable 4518th reg.(Duke of Regina's own Huscarles).  These regiments are
rated in game terms as 5 strength points (battalion equivents) and Tech level
15.  Buried amongst the thousands of strength ponts of Imperial Army troops
(mostly Tech 14-15 lift infantry with a good proportion of other unit types) I
was able to locate two, count em, two regiments of Army jump troops, rated at
5 strength points and tech level 14 and 15 respectively.  This demonstrates
that the Army has Jump troops, but much less of them than are possessed by the
Marines.  It is possible that a multitude of Jump Troop regiments are "buried"
within the 500 and 100 point Army and Corp level units, but only if you assume
a significant presence (say 1 regiment per corps) the total number of Jump
Troops will the Army Jump Troopers seriously outnumber the Marine variety.  I
actually do not feel that this is the case.  The Imperial Army units comprise
a wide variery of independant regiments and divisions.  If the Army fielded
large numbers of Jump troop units, they would have shown up for the big one,
the Fifth Frontier War.  But they just are not there.  The Imperial Army does
not appear to place a high priority on budgeting Jump Troops in their OB.
Based on this, my theory is that the relatively small numbers of Army or
Marine Jump troopers are given the responsibility for most meteoric assaults
where the tactical situation requires them, but that Imperial army doctrine
must hold that for most assaults, assault shuttles or the lift troopers
organic grav vehicles are the preferred method to use when making the drop to
the target world's surface.  Such an assault would be slower, and subject to
interception on the way down, but once down, the Army regulars would could
dish out damage an order of magnitude greater than the lightly equipped Jump
troopers, be they Army or Marine.  Any comments?

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:51:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Why, yes... I'd forgotten about this particular match + kerosene tank
combination.  Much superior to fighters vs. battleships, WWII & nukes, and
all the rest of it.  Why not?

Personally, I think the Solomani used tons of biological warfare, in fact.
It's the only efficient and reasonable thing to have done.

Kenji
 
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

> You know, there's something missing in canon.
> 
> When Europeans first came in contact with native Americans, Polynesians, etc.,
> there were mass deaths due to smallpox.  This disease seldom killed Europeans
> (I believe), but had a high mortality rate among people who had not been
> exposed.  And, of course, the Europeans occasionally exploited this in what
> amounted to crude early biowar.
> 
> You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
>   --S
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:57:19 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

StevenA201@aol.com wrote:
> 
> You know, there's something missing in canon.
> 
> When Europeans first came in contact with native Americans, Polynesians, etc.,
> there were mass deaths due to smallpox.  This disease seldom killed Europeans
> (I believe), but had a high mortality rate among people who had not been
> exposed.  And, of course, the Europeans occasionally exploited this in what
> amounted to crude early biowar.
> 
> You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
>   --S

I thought for sure they mentioned it as a factor somewhere.  I cn't
recall which book it was in.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:55:37 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

At 09:33 PM 26/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?
>
>Does it lift off like a rocket, blasting the thrusters at the ground and
>generating lots of G's?
>Does it lift off like an airplane, thrusting perpendicular to gravity and
>relying on streamlining for lift?
>Does it lift off like a balloon, gently generating 1.01 G and floating into
>the sky?
>
>The answer, of course, will make a BIG difference to the general flavor of the
>game!
>  --S
>


        IMTU, the answer is a combo of 1,2&3.
        
        a)  Bring PPD to maximum power
        b)  Activate contra-grav
        c)  Retract landing gear
        d)  Let-go tie-down cables, open hangar bay doors, drop umbilicals,
and generally make ready for ship to be free to maneuver
        e)  Begin forward thrust at 10% power along lift-off path with
exponential rate of nose-up until ship angle is perpendicular to gravatic
plane of planet
        f)  Throttle up to 100+% of rated thrust to escape gravity well and
reach orbit & jump-point

        IYTU, YMMV, YAAA, BYE!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:02:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

First, Thad, I'd like to say: excellent stuff. Pleased to see it. Okay, now
on with the post:

Thad Coons said:

>1. Universities are heavily politicized, and don't cooperate so
>much as they compete, so archaeology is conducted a la Indiana
>Jones.  Valuable sites of pre-human settlement are claimed by
>institutions which don't have the resources to investigate them
>properly but refuse to let anyone else do so.


An interesting alternative, or combination is to take a page from real
history. Perhaps the sites of pre-human settlements (or even early human
settlements) are merely plundered for pure, superficial value. This would be
much like some of the earliest digs, where knowledge took a backseat to the
gold that could be found.


>Any comments or suggestions for variations or development? Shall
>I do more?


In the same vein, I saw a bit of anime last night that might be of interest
to folks on the list. I'm not really a big fan of anime, but it came highly
recommended...

It's called "Wings of Honnemaise," and it's about the first crawling steps
that a war-torn planet takes into space. The planet itself is very
interesting. The movie focuses on the early space program of one country,
and that country has uniforms and buildings that look like a cross between
some meso-american flavor and China. Very unique. There are some elements of
a religion intertwined as well. The country seems to be relatively low-tech
in some ways: huge crude room-sized computers,  black and white television
and film, early jet power, stuff like that). On the other hand, they're
pretty high tech in other ways. Their ground vehicles, for example, seem to
be pretty impressive, and their guns at least look pretty advanced.

The plot starts off relatively strong, but begins to get a bit hokey as the
movie goes on. It gets better towards the very end. The movie has a strong
anti-war message that is core to the plot, so it might not be for everyone.

One of the more interesting elements in the film was the depth of
"background." The movie starts off with sepia-tone line paintings of great
events related to air-travel throughout the history of the planet, their
equivilant of the Wright brothers "first flight," their analog to early WWI
fighters, etc... The film is dotted with black and white newsreels, rocket
test footage, television interviews and  the like.

If you're not a huge fan of anime, but you're interested in the little
touches that make a world feel "real," you might want to check this one out.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:06:28 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Kenji said:

>Why, yes... I'd forgotten about this particular match + kerosene tank
>combination.  Much superior to fighters vs. battleships, WWII & nukes, and
>all the rest of it.  Why not?


Uh oh... <mommy, I'm scared>

>Personally, I think the Solomani used tons of biological warfare, in fact.
>It's the only efficient and reasonable thing to have done.


Yep. Undoubtedly. That's the way it happened IMTU.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:03:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lifting off

In a message dated 2/26/99 6:57:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<< IMTU, the answer is a combo of 1,2&3.
         
         a)  Bring PPD to maximum power
         b)  Activate contra-grav
         c)  Retract landing gear
         d)  Let-go tie-down cables, open hangar bay doors, drop umbilicals,
 and generally make ready for ship to be free to maneuver
         e)  Begin forward thrust at 10% power along lift-off path with
 exponential rate of nose-up until ship angle is perpendicular to gravatic
 plane of planet
         f)  Throttle up to 100+% of rated thrust to escape gravity well and
 reach orbit & jump-point
  >>

PERFECT description! I envisioned a helicopter type lift-off via a combo of
vertical contra-grav thrust and horizontal thrust plate thrust, and then a
power climb, but your description is MUCH better...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:15:56 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 

> 
> Spacefaring Nations
> 
> Just as there were three "worlds" defined in the 20th century, so
> are there three types of nations in Milieu E21: those with shipyards,
> those with spaceports only, and those with neither.
> 
> The list below shows the location of spaceports on Earth, the class of
> spaceport, and the monetary system used by the owning nation.  Please
> note that the spaceport classes vary with the timeline:
> 
> Early E21 (2020? to 2049)
> 
> All spaceports are downgraded by 1 level.
> 
> Middle E21 (2050 to 2079)
> 
> All spaceports are as shown.
> 
> Late E21 (2080 to 2118?)
> 
> All spaceports are upgraded by 1 level.  All national capitals have a
> spaceport of rating 'D', OR a rating equal to the best spaceport in that
> country.
> 
> Class B Spaceports
> 
> Howdy all.  Just tooting another horn, seeing if anyone toots back.
> I'd thought a bit about Milieu E21 (Earth 21st century), and did a
> little research.  I figured, for Traveller purposes, there would be
> bunches of spaceports in the Earth system before the Vilani were
> encountered.
> 
> Since I can't prognosticate, and since I don't want to pick too
> blindly, I webbed over to a gov't site that lists the economies of
> all nations and used that to extrapolate who would have what
> spaceports.  

Why do you put Buffalo and Boston above Houston?  Wouldn't the first
places in the US to have spaceports be where we already have a
spaceprogram (Califirnia, Florida, Texas, New Mexico, and IIRC
Colorado)?  Do you have or are you planning a web page for this
campaign?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:24:44 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: What's green and lives under bridges?

StevenA201@aol.com writes:

> You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.

And then:

> I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?

Um, you're missing near-C pirates, and fighting jump torpedoes...

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:21:35 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

At 10:03 PM 26/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/26/99 6:57:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
><< IMTU, the answer is a combo of 1,2&3.
>         
>         a)  Bring PPD to maximum power
>         b)  Activate contra-grav
>         c)  Retract landing gear
>         d)  Let-go tie-down cables, open hangar bay doors, drop umbilicals,
> and generally make ready for ship to be free to maneuver
>         e)  Begin forward thrust at 10% power along lift-off path with
> exponential rate of nose-up until ship angle is perpendicular to gravatic
> plane of planet
>         f)  Throttle up to 100+% of rated thrust to escape gravity well and
> reach orbit & jump-point
>  >>
>
>PERFECT description! I envisioned a helicopter type lift-off via a combo of
>vertical contra-grav thrust and horizontal thrust plate thrust, and then a
>power climb, but your description is MUCH better...
>

        Thanks!  The best thing about this approach (or should that be
departure?) is that it nixes the requirement for tail-sitter ships.  If you
can contra-grav an entire freighter, by implication you ought to be able to
build internal compensators as well.  After all, this is an sf game...
Somethings have got to be doable by advanced technology or what's the point?

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:11:58 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]  The Old marquis responds to Sir Renner 1

Honorable Sir,	

	You have suggested that a written guarantee of sophont's rights should be
drawn up and implemented across the Imperium.  Furthermore, these rights
should be enforceable, by persuasion and occasionally by limited force, in
Imperial jurisdiction, and also on planetary surfaces as well.  You have
listed the Office of Calendar Compliance as one example of this in our
Imperium already, and we might add the ban on chattel slavery in the Warrant
of Restoration as another.

	The question of the slavery ban and Calendar Compliance are easily handled.
The ban on slavery and the authority to impose calendar compliance are both
directly authorized in the Warrant of Restoration, making them inappropriate
precedent for other sorts of intervention which are not so listed.  Those two
areas of intervention are, along with the ban on supporting piracy and
smuggling and the extraterritoriality of Imperial installations, the sole
enumerated checks that the Imperium has over  a member world.
		
	There is one very serious legal problem with the proposal for a written bill
of rights.  Our current constitution, The Warrant of Restoration, lays final
authority on all matters, save only two, with the Emperor.   We know that the
decisions of one Emperor, while theoretically able to change unilaterally the
relationship between Imperium and member world (as per Article 8),  are not
legally binding upon the will of later Emperors.  Therefore, how is this bill
of rights to be established and maintained as a permanent feature of the
Imperial government?  

	So, could an emperor use his unilateral authority under Article 8 of the
Warrant to establish such a bill of rights?  The answer is, of course he
could.  However, the next Emperor could take that list of rights and throw it
away.  Could the Moot exercise its right to prevent such a person from
ascending the throne?  The answer is, again, of course it could.  However,
once the coronation were over, he could use the bill as a dinner napkin.  How
then could this change be accomplished legally?

	The answer is chilling.  The Imperial Moot must vote to dissolve the Third
Imperium and try to form a new government somehow.   That is the sole method
for accomplishing constitutional change.   If the vote to dissolve did occur,
is there anyway to predict what would follow?  The answer is, of course not!
Systems would not be obliged to join the new Republic or Fourth Imperium or
whatever it might be.  Nobles would not have authority to create it.   All
order would vanish, the grab for power would begin, much as if would happen if
an emperor were to be assassinated and no heir who was accepted by the Moot or
the nobility at large would emerge (perish the thought!).  

	If the government proposed were a democratic republic, then the people
presumably would have the right to vote on its inception, a process that could
take up to six years!  And if the local governments were to refuse to let the
referendum take place, what authority could compel it?  And if all systems
allowed the referendum and it passed, is that not proof enough that there is
enough democracy in the Imperium already? 

	No, my dear sir, the cost of a bill of rights that had any meaning or force
is just too great.  To attempt this enterprise would suspend us over a gaping
chasm from which no bottom or hope of rescue can be seen.  

			Your obedient servant

				
				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:20:10 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

In a message dated 99-02-23 20:01:12 EST, John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

<< White Dwarf 22 - Dec/Jan 80/81 - Robe and Blaster - by Rick D Stuart -
 that I happen to have to hand (ain't that sad).
 
 Can't find it on the HIWG CD. Maybe it's on Andy Slacks website (but
 probably not) linked to from BITS.ORG.UK.
  >>
You sir, are a steely eyed jump point operator!  Thanks!  Though I still have
to slip into the ol' battle dress and take the PGMP-13 out to the garage and
find my stuff!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:26:45 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:07:42 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
wrote:

>Hasn't he ever heard of C-Span? 

>And where does he sail off to when politicians start campaigning?

Trust me, Clif, none of that is rhetoric in the classical sense,
which is how he was using it.  You might want to compare C-Span
and political campaigns to something like the Federalist Papers.
You might also find it educational to look up the "trivium" and
"quadrivium", and the individual subjects that compose them, in
context.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:24:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)

See Space Gamer, issue #74 (May '85) for an article entitled "Role
Playing Dracula", by W. Peter Miller




- ---Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
> > 



==
___________________________________________________
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant

          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

         Now a proud member of Downport.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:26:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Smallpox

In a message dated 2/26/99 9:33:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
StevenA201@aol.com writes:

<< 
 You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
 had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it
possible
 that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
 the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable. >>

	There is such an event in canon, called The Plague of Duskir, it's supposed
to have altered proportions of Solomani to Vilani significantly in parts of
the Rule of Man. But I've heard that some on the list consider it to be "done
to death"   And I agree that such an event would likely occurr.  By the way,
smallpox killed scads and scads of Eurpoeans too, all the time, it was just
worse for the Injuns.   

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:21:39 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate] Old Marquis resp. to Solomani Sam resp Sir Renner 1

	Samuel, Samuel, Samuel,

	You have begged the question.  It seems to be your "feeling" that only a
representative democracy is "moral" or "decent", one might even say
"conceivable." Yet many people through uncounted millennia have managed to
live happy productive lives and  sworn heartfelt, patriotic allegiance to a
vast sweep of types of government.  You're opinion that certain government
types are "abominations" stems from narrow ideology.  I had hoped to see
better from you.

						Your Obedient Servant

						The Old Marquis  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:31:48 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Donosevs as Mustering-out Benefits?

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> I have very fond memories of the Donosev.  Perhaps not the best looking
> starship around, but for a scout it's heaven!  400 tons of space and sensors
> that let you spot nasty, hostile, Donosev-prejudiced starships far, far, far
> away!  (not to mention the *four* turrets...).
> 
> IMTU, a scout that rolls 'scoutship' multiple times during mustering out
> gets a Donosev.
> 
Does the recipient of a Donosev get the same benefits as the recipient
of a Type S (free refined fuel at a Scout base, free annual maintenance
at a Scout base)?  If so, sounds like a pretty good bargain for the
Scout in question (more cargo space, longer legs...).

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:58:32 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Assimilation

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> I think we may be talking at cross purposes here. What you are proposing
> above is fairly much the way I see things too, just I don't call that
> "assimilation" (I call it supression). 
> Andrew etc.
We are pretty much on the same track then.  I never thought of the Ziru
Sirka "assimilation" as absolute.  I saw it as a partial assimilation. 
Just the parts they wanted to assimilate: economy, technology,
government, language, and public formality (I consider all of these to
be viable parts of culture).  The remaining parts of culture and the
original language would have remained in the private lives of the
natives.
I agree it would be uneconomical to have a policy of deliberate and
absolute assimilation, especially when it wasn't needed.  In any case,
the parts I mentioned above would have undergone changes through out the
rest of the history, especially the Long Night, resurgence or not.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:55:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Donosevs as Mustering-out Benefits?

In a message dated 2/26/99 7:37:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wombat@premier.net writes:

<< Does the recipient of a Donosev get the same benefits as the recipient
 of a Type S (free refined fuel at a Scout base, free annual maintenance
 at a Scout base)?  If so, sounds like a pretty good bargain for the
 Scout in question (more cargo space, longer legs...).

I would say yes; but at the cost of having to spend most of the time surveying
for the IISS...You have to create some major pain's for the PC's to offset the
benefits of this vessel...Of course a resourceful GM could use the surveying
route as a means to add the adventure plot to the PC's...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:02:10 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Famile Spofulam Home Stereo/PA System/Riot Control Device

OK. Here it is ... the Famile Spofulam Sound System. An innovative attempt
to synergistically combine the innovation of Famile Spofulam's High Energy
Solutions with the single-minded emphasis on Customer Care of the Home
Products Division.

The high concept is the use of wave-modulation of a vertical high-energy
HepLAr jet to provide optimal tonal qualities, combined with use of
contragravity to overcome the unwanted downward momentum.

Possible uses include home stereo, public entertainment and riot control.

A militarised version may become available, however the basic civilian
model mounts 2 cm of advanced composite laminates and is thus proof against
rotten fruit, hand-propelled Joka Cola cans and light energy weapons.

Local environmental and public-safety regulations should be considered
before use on, above or under public or private property.

****************************************************************************
*****

1 m3 TL13 Fusion plant ; 3t, KCr 200 <3 MW>

400 kN Heplar plant ; 0.2m3, 0.2 t, KCr 1 <2 MW demand>

500 kN High Efficiency Contragrav ; 1m3, 1 t, KCr 10 <0.32 MW demand>

7 m3 LHyd ; 7m3, 0.5t <14 hours operation>

Holographic linked workstation ; 7 m3, 0.2t, KCr 1

CM 0.5/CP2 computer ; 0.22 m3, 0.045t, KCr 11 <0.1 MW demand>

4.75m/28 m3 cube, 2cm Adv Composites hull <AF25>; 1.11 m3, 11.1t, KCr 10

4 G Comp ; 0.28m3, 0.1t, KCr 11 <0.2 MW demand>

Type II Life Support ; 0.14m3, 0.14t, KCr 9 <0.1 MW demand>

Total mass : 16.3t

Total acceleration : 2.5 gees vertical, 0.5 gees horizontal under CG. 2
gees in any direction using Heplar.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:58:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Did I just read what I think I just read?

At 12:11 PM 2/26/99 -0500, you wrote:

>As a further comment (if I'm gonna get flamed, I might as well work at
>earning it) I rather agree with the fellow who mentioned something to the
>effect that being a highly skilled killer is nothing to brag about.

My last word on the subject.

Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock did indeed have 93 kills.  But he received
the Silver Star for pulling seven fellow Marines out of a burning vehicle
despite the second and third degree burns he had received over 60% of his
body.  He went back into a flaming vehicle three times to make sure all of
his buddies were clear.

If you can't admire his skill as a warrior, admire his bravery in the face
of great personal pain and danger.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:06:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

At 03:26 AM 2/27/99 GMT, you wrote:

>Trust me, Clif, none of that is rhetoric in the classical sense,
>which is how he was using it.  You might want to compare C-Span
>and political campaigns to something like the Federalist Papers.
>You might also find it educational to look up the "trivium" and
>"quadrivium", and the individual subjects that compose them, in
>context.

For real fun political debate, watch "Prime Minister's Question Time" on
C-SPAN.  John Major vs. Commons.  Great fun.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 22:13:56 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

On 02/25/99 at 01:20 PM,  "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> said:

>Either way, the difficulty levels provide a systematic means of 
>documenting and referencing die rolls within the specific system, and
> establishes a common mechanic that can be used to predictably 
>evaluate a character's performance when attempting certain tasks.

Yes, exactly!  One advantage of using standard (or near standard)
terms to describe the difficulty of things is you can build a
library of "tasks"...not just for yourself but shareable with other
GM's.  Let's say I don't use MT rules, but I can pick up an MT
adventure with task descriptions and "port" it *very* easily to
another set of rules if it has similar task descriptors.

>Before the task system concept evolved, CT had seemingly arbitrary 
>selections of die rolls and modifiers that changed from skill to 
>skill and situation to situation.  While some gamers like that level 
>of freedom, others prefer a more structured approach.  It's all a 
>matter of taste, though.

Nothing says a Task system has to lock you into specific levels.  If
the description says the Task is Difficult, but you think it's a
hair easier than that moving your target number down a hair.  

You know, I *do* like the T4 method of adding dice as the task
becomes harder.  Straight T4 didn't work well.  What I've seen of
Marc's ideas for T5 look interesting, but he's still using that
lonely d3..<grumble, grumble>..don't like d3's.  ;-> Ken's KBv2
seemed to work pretty well, but it wasn't to my taste to do all the
halving and doubling it required.  Maybe we should run some numbers
with typical GURPS skill levels?

  Skill Easy Routine Diffic Formid Stagger Hopeless
  Level 1d6    2d6     3d6    4d6     5d6     6d6
  ========================= ========================
   8    100     72      26      5       1      <1
   9    100     83      38     10       2      <1
  10    100     92      50     16       3      <1
  11    100     97      63     24       6       1
  12    100    100      74     34      10       2
  13    100    100      84     44      15       4
  14    100    100      91     56      22       6
  15    100    100      95     66      31      10
  16    100    100      98     76      40      15
  17    100    100      99     84      50      21
  18    100    100     100     90      60      28
 
Hum, if we assume Attributes and Skills in GURPS are generally in
the 10 to 16 range then this might work.  It's worth thinking about. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #211
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 212



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: Debate--OOC comments
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Hit Locations
Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)
Re: Lifting off
Kenji is Ditzie if he thinks....
Re: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline
Bravery and self-sacrifice.
Re: GURPS Task system
Re: GT Starmercs question
Re: World Hooks
Re: This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)
Re: Milieu E21

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 22:19:14 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

On 02/25/99 at 02:44 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>In many of my games I rolled all the dice myself, especially with
>beginning players. I described the task ("That looks hard, easier if
>you'e dexterous and a trained medic"), they decided if they'd try it,
>then I rolled dice. The concentrated on role-playing.

I do the same thing. In PBEM's I do *all* the rolling. FTF, I do most of the routine stuff and the players stay in character. For combat and at "crunch time" the players roll.

>A lot of people get confused/bothered by numbers, even if it is the
>same thing. Just look at the endless half-die debates!

It wasn't the numbers I object to, it was the inelegance of using a single d3 in the middle of a range of d6's, but let's not restart *that* discussion again! ;->  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:40:37 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Debate--OOC comments

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:55:10 -0500, AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>	Howdy folks,

>	I just had a few things to say about the debate. 

>	1)  I was not initially going to get involved, but I must admit I'm having a
>really good time in the debate with Seth (Solomani Sam), and am getting to be
>fond of my alter-ego The Old Marquis.

I'm quite impressed with The Old Marquis's writings - I'm quite
satisfied that you got into the debate.

>	2) Clif, you were right, this is rather like a PBEM isn't it.

I'll have to agree with that, although it is certainly on a level
that I'm fairly sure was never contemplated in the development of
the game.  I wonder how Marc and Loren feel about the way their
brainchild has developed, and the following that it has...

>	3) Does the sponsor of the debate envision a close-out of the debate?

Good question.  Are there any others?  If not, class is
dismissed.

>	4)  Is anyone else going to get involved again?   Are the other participants
>being more deliberate and measured in issuing posts?  Seth and I seem to be
>putting them out quite frequently.  Or are you all waiting for us to wind
>down, before jumping back in?

Gallatin and Dilgaadin are both deliberate and considered types,
not wont to fire off quick responses to every post.  But count on
either or both to respond when they feel that well-written posts
need to be responded to.  I also note that Gallatin, at least
(and probably Dilgaadin as well) may allow a thread to develop
for a while, and then address the entire thread.  That'll be
indicated in their headers, e.g. "Gallatin 99 resp Solomani Sam
115, 116, The Old Marquis 110, An Imperial Patriot 86"

That's sort of an "overflow" from my own real life - as I'm sure
many here (and elsewhere) have noticed, I post less frequently
than others, but when I _do_ post, I try to make my message
count.  Dilgaadin and Gallatin, being my "alter-egos" for this
debate, would naturally share in that trait.

>	5) By the way, the "Congratulations" story was indeed a very neat thing to
>read.

It touched me, too, when it happened.  That's why I posted it.

>		In any case, it was a good idea (and pretty free of flames too, or is that
>just because The Old Marquis is such a gentleman?)

I don't think it's _just_ The Old Marquis; I think we'd see much
the same thing in additional posts from Thucydides and
Prometheus, and I try to maintain the same attitude as both
Dilgaadin and Gallatin.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:34:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

And this, folks, shows a TRUE Donosev and Scout fan, if he's already putting
those inprogress shots as wallpaper :)  With any luck I'll have the real
thing for you by Monday.  Stay tuned.

Jesse



>Since I run my campaign on the frontiers of the Imperium, I *always* ensure
>that there is at least one weapon per turret, and the turrets are
installed.
>That's IMTU, and my campaign appears to be 'darker' than most.
>
>And actually, I *am* using the Donosev as my wallpaper, and will update it
>with new versions as they come out!  :)  It's a great treatment of the IISS
>workhorse!
>
>Remember, they'll give Type 'S' scouts to _anyone_ who manages to survive a
>Scout career - you've got to EARN a Donosev!
>
>douglas
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 22:38:42 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Hit Locations

Why not say that all shots are aimed at some location...more or less...if the player doesn't call the shot it's aimed at the target's center mass?  Then if the shot "hits" it hits the location and if it misses roll a 1d6 placing the shot in one of the hexes surrounding the target location.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:43:08 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:17:35 -0800 (PST)
>From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
>Subject: OT: batten down the hatches...
>
>Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net> writes (regarding the late Carlos Hathcock):
>
>> As a further comment (if I'm gonna get flamed, I might as well work at
>> earning it) I rather agree with the fellow who mentioned something to the
>> effect that being a highly skilled killer is nothing to brag about.
>
>I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
>(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)

Well, I am utterly indifferent to your serious umbrage, and am responding to
your obvious ire with nothing but liberal malice in my heart.


>Considering that the closest to war you'll probably ever be is watching
>the "History Channel", you should thank God (or whoever) that there are
>those rare men like Gunney Hathcock that have the courage and conviction
>to take on a morally repugnent task, which lesser men would refuse to
>touch, a task which gives the professionals themselves no joy, and
performed
>that odious duty to the best of their ability.  Hathcock *NEVER* bragged
>about his career in 'Nam and, when put up for the Silver Star (for rescuing
>the seven Marines from the burning AmphiTrack that almost killed him),
>refused the award *THREE* times in a row.  He always maintained that
>what he did for his country was "nothing special".

I'd prefer to thank god (or whoever, though I'm going to avoid that
particular can of worms in this particular post) for men with the moral
convictions to *refuse* such repugnant tasks, even if it meant prosecution. 
(Oh, and while I'm at it, could someone remind me just what threat the
Vietnamise posed to the Western World again?  It's not part of my
bedwetting-liberal-bleeding heart curriculum.)  Y'see, 'I ain't got no
quarrel with them Viet Cong' either.

I also don't recall suggesting that the late Mr. Hathcock did any such
bragging, or that he was anything but a brave man.  I also mentioned that
I've never met him, so frankly I have no personal opinion of him, though I
respect the rights of others to do so (whether they call on personal
experience or not in so doing).  I merely suggested that I highly doubt that
he is the first, last or only individual to display exceptional courage and
unselfishness in hellish situations.

If you wish to take umbrage at my opinions, by all means do so.  If you wish
to dispute my right to hold them, do so in a room with other closed-minded
sods.  I'm not interested.

Oh, and for the record, I am quite pleased that I am not likely to be going
to war any time soon.  What little time I spent in the infantry when I was
young and stupid was quite enough for me.  I'm not cut out for life in the
service, and last I looked, even the Canadian Armed Forces (as opposed to
the mighty U.S. war machine) is doing fine without me.  I am proud of my
grandfather (who saw service in WWII), but I have no desire to emulate him. 
Especially by interfering in the affairs of a postage stamp of a nation on
the other side of the world.  I leave that to the professionals. 


>The quiet bravery demonstrated by Hathcock and his peers is a testimonial
>that rare men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before
>personal moral comfort.  We can all learn from such men.

I agree with you with the exception of the 'personal moral comfort' bit.  If
I make the obvious rebuttal though, you'll likely have a frothing coronary
on the spot.  Just because your government says that something (wrong) is
acceptible simply does not make it so.  Moral courage is refusing to do
something odious and accepting the consequences.

(Weary note - I am not suggesting that the individual in question was
morally bankrupt, so don't even start down that road.  I'm saying that Wrong
is Wrong.)


>The next time you feel like slandering the honored dead, try looking
>at the bigger picture before mouthing off. :^(

Please illustrate just where exactly I 'slandered' the man.  For that
matter, until you do so, I will consider myself the innocent victim of your
brutally slanderous (but remarkably well-written) assault, with the
exception of the smiley, on the grounds that I find noses on smileys to be
irritating.  On that count, I may sue for emotional damage.

To be serious for a moment, I wonder what the individual in question might
say about his hunting down and killing of (93?  I forget) targets in cold
blood.  Would he consider it an admirable deed, or a praiseworthy one?

I make no assertions to that effect, seeing as I never discussed it with
him, but personally I hope that he would find it as brutal and ugly as I do.
 Now *that* would be admirable.

Oh, and one last note to ensure you'll loathe me and my ilk forever - by
definition, the dead (honoured or otherwise) cannot be slandered, as far as
my understanding of libel laws etc. goes.  What this has to do with your
tirade, I am uncertain, but I feel fairly certain that you'll manage to take
yet more umbrage at it.

Cheers,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:50:11 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)

Shame on y'all!

You deliberately enlightened him as to the nature of said acronyms (and I'm
too lazy to look up exactly who y'all are, but you know who you are, since
you are them).

This means that when he encounters them, as a result of trashing a Donosev,
they will be able to harm him (since he is no longer ignorant of their
definitions).  This is an obvious attempt to get Clif killed, and is as
morally repugnant an act as I have seen on this list in at least five
minutes.

*For shame*

(OB Trav: What if Tom Clancy wrote Traveller novels?  He'd use his LBB's
research how his Marine pukes would use their ACRs to yaddayaddayadda... 
And I don't want to hear about what the yiddish language thinks of yadah-ing
in this case, either!  Think of the Traveller Morals Clause!)


Me again,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:48:07 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

I agree, a very good description.  Techniques would tend to vary, though,
depending on the CG and G rating of the ship in question.  Another thing
that might alter methods are, shall we say, tactical considerations during
liftoff :)  My Acipiter will probably use a lot more CG to yank the ship up
and out of the line of fire if something's going on, compared to the near
airplane style takeoff that it is also capable of.

IMTU, YMMV, ETC ETC BYE (to paraphrase someone else :)

Jesse


>In a message dated 2/26/99 6:57:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
>
><< IMTU, the answer is a combo of 1,2&3.
>
>         a)  Bring PPD to maximum power
>         b)  Activate contra-grav
>         c)  Retract landing gear
>         d)  Let-go tie-down cables, open hangar bay doors, drop
umbilicals,
> and generally make ready for ship to be free to maneuver
>         e)  Begin forward thrust at 10% power along lift-off path with
> exponential rate of nose-up until ship angle is perpendicular to gravatic
> plane of planet
>         f)  Throttle up to 100+% of rated thrust to escape gravity well
and
> reach orbit & jump-point
>  >>
>
>PERFECT description! I envisioned a helicopter type lift-off via a combo of
>vertical contra-grav thrust and horizontal thrust plate thrust, and then a
>power climb, but your description is MUCH better...
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:53:05 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Kenji is Ditzie if he thinks....

>I heartily second that motion!  Ditzie has been absent for far too long!  
>
>We want Spofulam!
>
>We want Spofulam!
>
>We want Spofulam!
>
>(And why isn't one of the Famille joining the Gallatin et al. debate?
>The Sayat might have to speak up soon...)
>
> Kenji

No offense Kenji (like *that'd* stop anyone wanting to take offense!;) but
Ditzie ain't Spofulam!  Hengabar is Spofulam, and I recently sent him your
Manly-Man offerings.

I'm not saying for sure, but expect some kind of rebuttal.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:50:07 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline

>Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:49:10 -0600
>From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
>Subject: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline
>
>I want some critique of the timeline.  Can you live with it?
>My big concerns are TL and Contragrav.  I think delaying
>the development of both is a Good Thing; the question is,
>delay how far?
>

Here is my list of known (i.e., canonical) timeline data for the 21st
Century (and after):

1959	First Terran in space
1969	First landings on Luna
1988	International Space University founded at Strasbourg, France.
2011	Oldest settlement on Luna at Archimedes established as a small mining
base.
2013	United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA) established
2020	USA (in association with UK and Japan) establishes a mining site near
Copernicus.
2022	Treaty of New York centralizes national militaries under UN.
????	French ONeill colony established
????	Beltmetallfabrik, AG, begins asteroid mining
????	Construction begins on three long range colony ships.
2050	ESA Long Range Colony Mission launched.
2058	Pluto research station established; Terran bases throughout Solar System.
2088	Luna unified as a nation under UN.
2089	Terrans develop Jump-0 drive (TL 9-).
2096	Terrans develop Jump-1 drive (TL 9).
2099	Interstellar mission to Barnard; contact with Ziru Sirka.
2100	Terran outpost at Barnard established.
????	Reactionless thruster invented by Terrans.
2113	First Interstellar War.
2120	Terrans develop Jump-2 drive (TL 10).
2121	Lunar population 60,000.
2121	First Interstellar War ends; UN becomes United Worlds.
2123	United Worlds admits colonies to General Assembly; changes name to
Terran 	Confederation.
2132	Terran Confederation Navy commissions AI robots for naval support staff.
2241	Terrans develop Jump-3 drive (TL 11).


I place reationless thrusters where I do in the sequence because (1) the
ESA Long Range Colony Mission is explicitly noted as using "reaction
drives", and (2) in the Imperium boardgame (which admittedly isn't quite
canon) the units in the First Interstellar War can move at .8-.9c using
maneuver drives, which is highly unlikely unless they use reactionless
thrusters.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:59:59 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Bravery and self-sacrifice.

>My last word on the subject.
>
>Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock did indeed have 93 kills.  But he received
>the Silver Star for pulling seven fellow Marines out of a burning vehicle
>despite the second and third degree burns he had received over 60% of his
>body.  He went back into a flaming vehicle three times to make sure all of
>his buddies were clear.
>
>If you can't admire his skill as a warrior, admire his bravery in the face
>of great personal pain and danger.

My last words (for now) on the subject:  If you read what I've written
to-date on the matter, I do.  Never said otherwise.  Never will say
otherwise.  Sacrificing oneself on behalf of ones' fellows is, to me, one of
(if not the) most meaningful acts a person could ever undertake.

I could OB: Trav this one easily enough (SEH etc.), but I'd prefer to leave
*real* courage outside the scope of a game.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 23:05:22 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task system

On 02/25/99 at 05:39 PM,  Clay <arioch@theriver.com> said:

>Here is my task system.  It is, as always, work in progress so
>feedback would be appreciated.

>GURPS Task System

>Task Levels    Modifier    Auto
>Very easy        +6         10
>Simple           +3         13
>Routine          +1         15
>Standard          0         16
>Involved         -1         17
>Difficult        -3         19
>Ambitious        -6         22
>Formidable       -9         25
>Absurd          -12         28
>Near-Impossible -18         31

>Auto is the minimum skill for automatic success at a normal level. 
>This is to make the task system semi-diceless.  The player can always
>opt to roll with the full range of success or failure.

Interesting!  Why the small steps on either side of Standard?  Other
than that (and different wording on a couple of levels) our two
systems do look remarkablely alike.  The automatic success aspect is
something I don't include..that I fudge.

>Success Degrees     Target  Degree  Notes
>Absolute Failure     -6      -3     things are now worse 
                                     from the attempt.(UM 18)

<snip for brevity>

>* The damage system is still being worked out.  The system will
>determine damage based on the degree of success.

>Degrees of success are used in some contests of skill, uncertain
>tasks, as well as any task that needs a sort of 'yardstick'.

I'll have to think about this a little.

Very interesting!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:07:43 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GT Starmercs question

> >Having only just received Starmercs, I must say on initial perusal
> that
> >it appears pretty good, but I have a few questions that perhaps the
> >GURPS gurus can answer for me.
> >
> >In the ironmongery section, energy banks for the different vehicles
> are
> >described as storting megajoules, rather than megawatt-seconds. Can
> this
> >be clarified?  I really want to clear this up for my Vehicles design
> 
>         They're the same thing. Joules are *energy*, watts are *power*,
> which is an energy rate: energy divided by time. So when you multiply
> power (megawatts) by time (seconds), you get energy back out
> (megajoules).

Duh....I feel so stupid. I should have remembered this (or even just
RTFM!)
Thanks David and all the other responders for your prompt replies :-/

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 05:13:16 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: World Hooks

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:46:36 -0500, Thad Coons
<Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote:

>I must confess that very little of the recent discussion on the
>list has been very interesting to me. I'm getting tired of
>reading digests full of gratuitous insults, crude and vulgar
>language, responses to these, and criticism of the originators of
>all of the above. I still wish the chief offender would either
>clean up or clear out, but I'm not going to belabor the point.

Nor I, save to say that it _does_ get a bit annoying after a
while.

>But quite apart from that, discussions of CT, MT, BITS, GURPS,
>Spinward Marches, Imperial politics c. 1100, and software limited
>to Win95 or Mac, have very little relevance to my campaign.
>Extensive discussions of how many lasers can dance in a turret,
>or the possible variations on combat systems don't do much for
>me, either.  Subtract all these, these, and there hasn't been
>much so far this year that I can use.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I have found much of the discussion here
to be quite interesting, and generative of ideas, even though I'm
not running or playing in a campaign at the moment.  I "bank"
this stuff against future suitability.  Traveller is a _very_ big
world; there's always something to talk about.  I'd hate to miss
out on something good just because it's of no immediate use to
me.

>So, let me propose something a little bit different, something
>that's not necessarily tied to a given ruleset or campaign area.
>That is, societies and cultures that might be found _somewhere_
>in a Traveller universe.

As in, discussions of and outlines of, and fine-tuning to prevent
grating on the ... improbability ... detector?  By all means, go
for it!

>I have a fat textbook on world history which I've started mining for ideas
>about societies, situations, events, and personalities I might use in my
>own TU, and I thought I'd share some of them with the list. Here are a half
>dozen "world hooks".

Don't limit yourself to history texts; other texts on the social
sciences would probably provide useful insights.  Also, other
science fiction and some fantasy can provide potentially useful
or interesting campaign fodder.

>1. Universities are heavily politicized, and don't cooperate so
>much as they compete, so archaeology is conducted a la Indiana
>Jones.  Valuable sites of pre-human settlement are claimed by
>institutions which don't have the resources to investigate them
>properly but refuse to let anyone else do so.

OK, how does the party get involved?  Are they freelance
archologists hired by the university in question?  How does this
become an adventure?

>2. Certain prehuman settlement remains are famed for their
>aesthetic appeal and are important tourist attractions. There are
>a few which are nearly as good but much less well known (or even
>undiscovered) and many more that are overrated, at least by the
>local inhabitants. 

Again, what is the party's involvement?

>3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
>technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world is
>fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have been
>using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their beasts
>for centuries now.

Party involvement?  How is the technological infrastructure
necessary to maintain TL7 maintained?

>4. The local environment is cold, thin atmosphere; very warm and
>humid; or very hot and dry. Protective gear of some kind is a
>necessity for humans who live or work outside the centers of
>settlement, but the local life forms are well adapted to the
>conditions.

Not unreasonable, but the same old question: party involvement?

>5. The culture has a peculiar taboo against writing and depends
>on oral culture, but maintains a suprisingly high tech level
>through rote learning, memorization, and apprenticeship.

Sounds very Vilani - even the taboo against writing could be
weakly justified as a protection against knowledge falling into
inappropriate hands.

>6. The culture is very strongly family-oriented. Unlike most
>Solomani cultures, it has retained social organization along
>kinship lines through TL advances.  Probably more typical in
>vilani culture than Solomani. Possible models in SF&F are
>Heinlein's free traders (Citizen of the Galaxy), and the Tsurani
>in the "Empire" trilogy by RE Feist & Janny Wurtz.

I could also see it in some cultures of Far Eastern Solomani
extraction (e.g., Chinese).  But yes, this could also be Vilani
or Vilani-influenced.  Again: party involvement?

>Any comments or suggestions for variations or development? Shall
>I do more?

In general, Go for it!  But an unusual culture is not in and of
itself enough; there has to be reasons for the culture to be the
way it is, and it has to affect the party in some way.  What
you've posted here is more "background" than "hooks" - but if you
can post ideas for _using_ these worlds, you could provoke some
interesting discussion.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:13:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)

Oops....

Jesse


>Shame on y'all!
>
>You deliberately enlightened him as to the nature of said acronyms (and I'm
>too lazy to look up exactly who y'all are, but you know who you are, since
>you are them).
>
>This means that when he encounters them, as a result of trashing a Donosev,
>they will be able to harm him (since he is no longer ignorant of their
>definitions).  This is an obvious attempt to get Clif killed, and is as
>morally repugnant an act as I have seen on this list in at least five
>minutes.
>
>*For shame*
>
>(OB Trav: What if Tom Clancy wrote Traveller novels?  He'd use his LBB's
>research how his Marine pukes would use their ACRs to yaddayaddayadda...
>And I don't want to hear about what the yiddish language thinks of
yadah-ing
>in this case, either!  Think of the Traveller Morals Clause!)
>
>
>Me again,
>Ross Coburn
>ross@ican.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 05:24:33 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:46:36 -0500, Rob Eaglestone
<washi@metronet.com> wrote:

>The list below shows the location of spaceports on Earth, the class of
>spaceport, and the monetary system used by the owning nation.  Please
>note that the spaceport classes vary with the timeline:

You've got some errors in your monetary units, unless the E21
timeline diverges from ours sometime in the recent past.  I've
indicated the correct units below.

>Class B Spaceports

>Brasilia (Brazil)           B    Cruziero
                                  Real, perhaps (U.S.) Dollar

>Cherbourg (France)          B    Franc
                                  Euro

>Mar del Plata (Argentina)   B    Austral
                                  perhaps (U.S.) Dollar

>?? (UK)                     B    Pound
London or Birmingham.  Unit might be Euro.                       

>Class C Spaceports

>Ancona (Italy)              C    Lira
                                  Euro

>Antwerp (Belgium)           C    Franc
                                  Euro

>Copenhagen (Denmark)        C    Krone
                                  Euro

>Dublin (Ireland)            C    Pound
                                  Euro

>Hamburg (Germany)           C    Mark
                                  Euro

>Helsinki (Finland)          C    Markka
                                  Euro

>?? (UK)                     C    Pound
Liverpool, Glasgow, and/or Edinburgh.  Unit may be Euro.

>Class D Spaceports

>Amsterdam (Netherlands)     D    Guilder
                                  Euro

>Madrid (Spain)              D    Peseta
                                  Euro

>Rome (Italy)                D    Lira
                                  Euro

>?? (Germany) [2 sites]      D    Mark
any 2 of Berlin, Frankfurt/M, Bonn.  Unit is Euro

>?? (France)                 D    Franc
                                  Euro

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #212
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 213



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Task system
Re: What's green and lives under bridges?
Re: M:E21 fixes
Re: GT Adventures
Re: M:E21 fixes
Re: Milieu E21
Re: Lifting off
Re: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline
Familie Spofulam
How do Free Traders take off?
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: big mucking trees
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: How do Free Traders take off?
Interstellar Wars material added to my website
Re: Vilani Assimilation
More website update
Re: Interstellar polities in the Long Night (was Re: Quarterly hate-fest?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:30:52 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task system

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Interesting!  Why the small steps on either side of Standard?  Other
> than that (and different wording on a couple of levels) our two
> systems do look remarkablely alike.  The automatic success aspect is
> something I don't include..that I fudge.
> 
Originally the increases were in a pattern: 1, 3, 6, 12.  And the
difficulty modifiers matched the degrees of success with the same
pattern.  This worked out well with my game system (still nameless),
which uses different dice than GURPS.  What I posted here was the
adaptation of that task system to GURPS.  I am still checking the math
on those curves and play testing them, so it's still work in progress.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:52:05 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: What's green and lives under bridges?

>> Is it possible

>> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over

>> the ZS?

>

>And then:

>

>> I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?

>

>Um, you're missing near-C pirates, and fighting jump torpedoes...



Not trolling!  Not not not!  I just wasn't around when this stuff came up, and
it's important background for MTU.

IMTU, folks in the Spinward Marches have mostly Terran names.  This isn't for
political reasons, it's esthetic.  Earth has hundreds of cool languages from
which to choose names, while Vland has only one.  I find it dull if everyone
is named Eneri.

So I let about 20% of my NPCs have Vilani names, in amongst the Japanese and
Africans and whatever.  But I need a justification for why so many Terrans and
so few Vilani settled in the Marches and smallpox (or influenza) seemed like a
good answer.

As for the liftoff question, I really want to know what kind of noises to make
with my mouth when the time comes.  Is it like Whhhhhhshhhheeeew?  Or more
like Khwhrrrrrmmm?
  --S

BTW, I wish someone could clue me as to what ever became of the lesbian Aslan
pirates, too.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:03:46 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21 fixes

Thanks for the feedback folks.  I've updated the timeline -- it looks much
better, with a slower tech advancement rate -- and the cities.  I added
the Euro to appropriate nations, though I've also kept their national
currency too, just to keep it.

Now I need brainstormed plot ideas for this era.  The big focus, of
course, is twofold: the development of the jump drive (can I call it the
Alderson drive without getting sued?) and the upcoming First War
against the Ziru Sirka.  That means there will be a core Arc of adventures,
perhaps:

- - terrorism in the asteroid belt smelters impeding system development
- - political shenanigans and sabotage in Alderson drive tests
- - the Revolution on Mars: laying the groundwork for interplanetary
  dispute resolution ?
- - corporate espionage to recover or steal contragrav technology
- - high-tech drugs and drug smuggler rings are nastier than ever (Mars Vice?)
- - an all-new slave trade is born -- colonists or belters cheap!
- - a germinal Scout service created to use the new Alderson drive
- - shutting down an illegal spaceborne biological weapons program, only
   to find out the government is running it...
- - discovering that TerraGov has known about other humans in space...
   and has been covering it up.
- - some kind of subterfuge and intelligence gathering to size up the Vilani

In addition, there are scads of opportunities to create general mayhem
and have bunny-trail adventures to just play with the era:

- - the Jupiter Run: a contest to race custom-built 1-man boats around
  Jupiter.  One million liters of water credits to the winner!
- - the usual trading, prospecting, and corporate intrigue
- - War!  Join the Terran Marines and join the drop troops to crush the
   Martian revolution.  Fight another World War... and survive.
   Hire out as a mercenary to the highest bidder in an asteriod belt full
   of rabid nationalists.
- - Find out just what kind of ruins really are buried on Mars...
- - Even more incredible: track down a trail of ancient manuscripts, eroded
  structures, calendrical monoliths, and other Earth relics to find the real
  city behind the legends of Atlantis, Utnapishtim, the Feathered Serpent --
  buried under our very noses, an ancient base with the key to the
  Alderson effect... or more...

Can anyone think of more plot ideas?

Also, I've been thinking about space travel.  Early on, it may take weeks
to get any distance.  Anyone have an idea what engines and accelerations
Early, Middle, and Late E21 should have?

Okay, I'm tired and going to sleep now.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 00:58:24 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

On 02/26/99 at 09:21 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>I for one...would like to see SJG games publish a GT adventures...like
>>their G:Supers Adventures and G: Time Travel Adventures....Just a
>>thought...

They say they have problems selling Adventures for GURPS, however
they haven't had gurps TRAVELLER Adventures up to now. ;->

>What would your feeling be if BITS published, say, a 40 page A4
>(that's approximately the same size as the GT books) or 40 page A5
>(101/LBB size) adventure module range with GT and T4 stats (T4
>because it is pretty easy to convert back and is likely to be
>compatible with T5, if the drafts are to be believed)?

I like it!

>What would your feelings be if these where art light like the GDW LBB
>Adventures?

A lot!

>What if some of these were M:Generic 1100s or M:0?

When's the first one coming off the presses?  ;->

>Just curious.....

BTW, I got hit with a backorder from SJG when I ordered one of the
BITS books.  They'd sold out and the reorder hadn't come in yet.
This isn't a complaint, it's a congratulation. 

Keep 'em coming!


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:12:37 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M:E21 fixes

Date sent:      	Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:03:46 -0600
From:           	Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>

>Thanks for the feedback folks.  I've updated the timeline -- it looks much
>better, with a slower tech advancement rate -- and the cities.  I added
>the Euro to appropriate nations, though I've also kept their national
>currency too, just to keep it.

>Now I need brainstormed plot ideas for this era.  The big focus, of
>course, is twofold: the development of the jump drive (can I call it the
>Alderson drive without getting sued?) and the upcoming First War
>against the Ziru Sirka.  That means there will be a core Arc of adventures,
>perhaps:

I've done some work on the period in my Prometheus Rising project, would you 
like to see it?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:48:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> Spacefaring Nations
>
> Just as there were three "worlds" defined in the 20th century, so
> are there three types of nations in Milieu E21: those with shipyards,
> those with spaceports only, and those with neither.
>
> The list below shows the location of spaceports on Earth, the class of
> spaceport, and the monetary system used by the owning nation.  Please
> note that the spaceport classes vary with the timeline:

What were your criteria for these port locations.  A lot of them are
real world logistical nightmares, and will probably remain so.

> Early E21 (2020? to 2049)
>
> All spaceports are downgraded by 1 level.
>
> Middle E21 (2050 to 2079)
>
> All spaceports are as shown.
>
> Late E21 (2080 to 2118?)

Some critiques here:

IMO, not all these suggested spaceports would be, could be, or should
be available throughout the whole century.

Also, as Clayton mentioned above, the highest quality ports are likely to
be where they have been around the longest and are close to large
populations.  Consequently, Texas and Florida should be the premier
ports in the US.  There is a good argument that these locations, and
a few others, are class B today.

Come to think of it, most major international airports will be class C
ports, won't they?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:59:36 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

> I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?
>
> Does it lift off like a rocket, blasting the thrusters at the ground and
> generating lots of G's?

Not hardly, given the, IMHO, ridiculously low accelerations of most
Traveller ships.

> Does it lift off like an airplane, thrusting perpendicular to gravity and
> relying on streamlining for lift?

Streamlining will _not_ generate lift.  You need to have an airframe
to do that.  Streamlining means the atmosphere won't rip the thing apart.

> Does it lift off like a balloon, gently generating 1.01 G and floating into
> the sky?

I think you've got two options available most of the time, even on the same ship:

 - Reaction Thrusters (Heplar, etc.): Rocket-like.  Thrust directed downward.
 - Contra-grav: 'float' up.  Used with reaction thrusters on high G worlds for
extra lift.  Probably used almost all the time to start the takeoff, with reaction
thrusters coming later, especially where thrusters can't be directed straight
down.  The way I picture it, float of straight on contragrav until you're at
an appropriate altitude, whatever that is, and then kick the thrusters to climb
out at an angle.
 - Gravitic Thruster Plates: Not sure.  These are usually described as somewhat
directional, IIRC.  It always seemed to me that gravitic thrusters ought to enable
you to fly like a UFO, i.e., rapid changes in direction, ability to hover and
quickly accelerate (All within G tolerances of course).

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:09:27 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21: TL and Timeline

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> Hello again all, tooting a little more on E21:
>
> I want some critique of the timeline.  Can you live with it?
> My big concerns are TL and Contragrav.  I think delaying
> the development of both is a Good Thing; the question is,
> delay how far?

Its tough to critique the canon traveller timeline for Terran
space development, since its tough to deal with in the face
of the Real World (tm).

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to totally revise the timeline
so that it makes sense with the Real World as long as it comes
out at the same place.  The two key events being:

2087 Jump Drive
2094 Barnard's Star

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:13:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Familie Spofulam

Is there a FS family tree somewhere?

Its time the Familie had its own website.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:00:21 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: How do Free Traders take off?

Come now, everyone knows how free traders lift. It goes like this:

Standard Lift Drill:

1. Everyone runs into the docking bay, firingover their shoulders at
pursuing bad guys.

2. Pilot and engineer run into ship. Bash consoles and yell at one another.
Everyone else conducts fighting retreat. Much collateral damage is necessary
for a good takeoff.

3. Engines make a noise at last. Everyone rushes in.

4. Ship lifts on CG, retracts undercariage as bad guys fire futile fusilades
of smallarms fire at ship.

5. Ship accelerates in a rapidly steepening climb, watched by irate bad
guys.

6. Crew cheer and slap one another on the back. Begin Jump Insertion Drill
(which requires the assistance of a squadron of fighters and a couple of
Navy vessels....)


They used this isea in a movie once, I seem to recall. But anyway... that's
how Free Traders take off.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:16:30 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> I heartily second that motion!  Ditzie has been absent for far too long!
>
> We want Spofulam!
>
> We want Spofulam!
>
> We want Spofulam!
>
> (And why isn't one of the Famille joining the Gallatin et al. debate?
> The Sayat might have to speak up soon...)

While we're at what ever happened to Commander X?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:17:30 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

David J. Golden wrote:

>         All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!

Mummm.....

AYEEEEEE!

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:25:56 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >> But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
> >> need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
> >> Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
> >> --
> >
> >Ok, what kind of trees?
>
> Bloody great ones, one hopes..
>
> (looking up nervously..)

Naw I'm looking for what drove them up there in the first place.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:24:18 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: big mucking trees

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Doug types:
> >But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
> >need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
> >Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
>
> I don't wanna think about what''s up the food chain from these critters...

I do. I am working on a Hell world with a large aboral habitat.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:51:29 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> While Jesse <bow scrape grovel> is the reigning king of Traveller 3D, I
> too have been working on a Donosev, of which I'm kinda proud...
>
> I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is, and at about the
> limit of where my work looks even remotely as good as his...good
> texturing is the really, REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the
> part at which I am least successful so far..
>
> Anyway...for your perusal:
>
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html
>
> (it's down at the bottom)

Bruce, it's wonderful. Even if she's ugly.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:07:17 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: How do Free Traders take off?

>Come now, everyone knows how free traders lift. It goes like this:


    OK, preach to us, Reverand MJ.

>Standard Lift Drill:
>
>1. Everyone runs into the docking bay, firingover their shoulders at
>pursuing bad guys.


    You mean you have not used the Can of Whup Ass[tm] until now?

>2. Pilot and engineer run into ship. Bash consoles and yell at one another.
>Everyone else conducts fighting retreat. Much collateral damage is
necessary
>for a good takeoff.


    Of course.

>3. Engines make a noise at last. Everyone rushes in.


    OK, but is it a good noise or a bad noise?

>4. Ship lifts on CG, retracts undercariage as bad guys fire futile
fusilades
>of smallarms fire at ship.


    What about the damage to the undercariage?

>5. Ship accelerates in a rapidly steepening climb, watched by irate bad
>guys.


    Who call up their buddies in the Navy.

>6. Crew cheer and slap one another on the back. Begin Jump Insertion Drill
>(which requires the assistance of a squadron of fighters and a couple of
>Navy vessels....)


    With the pilot telling everyone how he can outrun the local ships.  As
his homeworlds vessels are not even in this system.

>They used this isea in a movie once, I seem to recall. But anyway... that's
>how Free Traders take off.


    You forgot about the small tac nuke whipping out the city as the Free
Trader takes off.

>MJD

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:38:07 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Interstellar Wars material added to my website

Well I've finally gotten around to starting to add my Prometheus Rising
material to my website. At the moment I've updated my history of the Wars
and added my work on the origins of the war and the Barnard Incident. I hope
to finish putting up my work over the next few days.

Still, for those who are interested, here's the URL:

  <http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/promrise/index.htm>



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:09:48 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani Assimilation

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote

> The problem is you have all these minor races who's culture apparently
> survived thousands of years of Vilani cultural assimilation more or 
> less intact. Now either a) the Vilani botched their attempts at 
> assililation in an unbelievably big way, b) all these races recreated 
> themselves with absolutely no reference to or evidence of their Vilani 
> culture during the Long Night or c) the supposed Vilani assimilation 
> didn't actually happen but was in fact a deliberate misrepresentation 
> for political ends during the RoM.
> When I look at it, option c seems to be the simplest and most likely.

how about d)  During the First Imperium some members of minor races were
converted to Vilani culture and these are the ones the Vilani noticed
and clamined success with.  Other members of minor races were not really
converted to Vilani culture but just mimiced it to keep the Vilani
happy, when Vilani domination went away so did their need to mimic the
Vilani.  Still other members of minor races never changed, and as a
result of this tended to remain bound to their planets of origin, and
resultingly were less noticed by the Vilani.  After the First Empires
collapse group one disapeared into the cultural mainstream while groups
two and three recreated an new culture for their race that included some
elements of Vilani culture but was primarily composed of their
traditional values.

how about e) As part of their efforts at dividing and conquering during
the Rule of Man the Solomani very strongly encouraged the minor races to
give up Vilani values and this effort was more or less successful.

how about f) The Vilani definiton of assimilated was "Act like a
Vilani."  the minor races did not _think_ like Vilani.  Absent Vilani
domination the need to follow Vilani culture went away.

how about g)  A whole bunch of Vilani converted to Terran culture [this
is cannon].  This whole bunch of cultural Vilani included a bunch of
members of minor races.  They also converted to Terran culture.  Many of
what are perceived by the Third Imperium as traditional cultural values
of that race are, in fact, Earth customs.  [This one opens the door for
all sorts of referee fun - you can (in a silly Traveller universe) make
your Suerreat into stereotypical Rastifarians, your Syleans into
Stereotypical Frenchmen, your Antareans into stereotypical Scots [cannon
says that transform dialects of Galanglic used tin the Antares region
have a broad accent] and the charecters may never know even of the
players suspect.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:15:13 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: More website update

I've just added my notes on the Terran Confederation to my Prometheus
Rising pages. Since its now getting late, I think I'll leave it at that for tonight.
Tommorrow should see the rest (the Ziru Sirka and Terran Free Traders
sections) go up. I hope people find them useful.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:26:56 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar polities in the Long Night (was Re: Quarterly hate-fest?)

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote

> does anyone have any hard data on polities which
> survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit 
> in MT, but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?

CT's Alien modules had some data as do most published sectors (for their
sector only of course).

The Darmine Economic Community survived the Long Night just fine.

MT's Imperial Encyclopedia says: [pg 22]

"Darmine: Cultural region in Zarushagar sector.  Darmine had a seperate
but submerged identity within the First Imperium and happily threw off
that domination when the First Imperium fell.  Allowed to flourish by 
the Rule of Man, the community of worlds survived the long Night with
little harm.  Darmine was the major focus of the Illelish Pacification
Campaign (76 to 120)."

MT's Referees Manual Cultural Regions of the Imperium Map [pg 102] gives
the Darmine Cultural Region as Subsectors J,K, O, and P of Zarushagar.

Therefore we know that at least one multi subsector polity was able to
survive the Long Night with little difficulty.

The Darmine Economic Community survived relatively unscathed for almost
2,000 years [or as the Darmine would put it twice 4^5 standard years]
from -1,776 to 120 and fell only to Imperial conquest during the
Pacification Campaign, a process that took 44 years.

[Comments following are IMTU and with my version of the Darmine]

The Darmine Economic Community achieved full mature TL 12, with the
exception of Meson weapons and screens, during the Rule of Man.  As the
First Empire retreated from Zarushagar Sector ahead of Terran advances
Naasiraka sold its large Starport at Linborn/Zarushagar to its largely
Darmine worker population of the starport bought it from the Vilani. 
The Darmine had some difficulty making the starport self sustaining as
dutring the First Empire it had been dependant on outside parts and
Vilani technicians, since the Vilani never revealed the secrets of jump
2 to their subject races but with some work and some Terran assistance
the port was able to attain a rating as a solid TL 12 A port.

Ever since then Linborn has been the primary Darmine Starport. However
Linborns atmosphere & biology shows an almost complete lack of the heavy
metals Darmine need in their diet & consequently it has never had a high
population or productive capacity, although extnesive use of robotics
has made its capacity higher than that of many starports on planets with
populations in the billions.

During the ROM, Darmine built small merchant ships, especially the 256
ton Kedil class jump 2 trading ship, achieved a reputation as solid
dependable starships that were also works of art.  [The last recorded
sale of a funcional ROM era Kedil starship, in 1043 to a noble
collector, was for aproximately MCr 1,900 many times its construction
cost 2,000 years ago.]  Linborn is still manufacturing Kedil class
merchants in Milieu 1,100.

[No I do not have full stats for this ship.  The basic Kedil class is TL
12 [although the TL 15 variety is more common later on] Jump 2, 1 G, MT
Armor 44, Computer 2 [4 copies, not the standard 3 copies - extensive
cross checking ciruitry between the 4 computers enables a -1 DM to all 
rolls for Computer related problems and misjumps]. Fuel purification
plants are standard. They are an 2 decked airframe disk [flying saucer]
configuration with manuver drive thrust in the same direction as
deckplan orientation.  The Kedil class has large staterooms, with
interconnecting doors, for all crew. It also has 4 large staterooms for
passengers and 4 low berths but is predominately designed to carry
speculative cargo.  It comes with two turrets.  Factory standard is 1
empty turret and 1 turret with a laser, a sandcaster & space for a 3rd
weapon.  Unusually for a merchant starship the Kedil class comes with
extended duration life support.  It is fairly common for Kedil class
ships to have fuel tankage for Jump 3 even if they are only Jump 2 
[Jump 1 variants are no longer produced as they are not economically
competative with cheaper ships.]

Rumors that high level officials of the Terran Confederation made very
firm demands that the Darmine provide _exact_ information as to the
exact status, & records of all Kedli class ships operating rimward of
Zarushagar circa -2,571, especially those that may have been lost around
that time, were popular among conspiracy theorists of the ROM but were
never confirmed or denied. 

[Don't tell the players but Kedil class starships often come with an
extra 1 ton smuggling hold hidden in the engine room & almost impossible
to detect via scan when the ships fushion plant is operational.  Access
to this hold is tight & items stored in it should have a maximum volume
of 100kl each.]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #213
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 214



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #213
Re: Smallpox
Re: Milieu E21
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #213
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: OT: FCC update
Re: Lifting off
Re: Lifting off
re: Smallpox
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
Re: GT Adventures
Re: Pyramid
Porcusquid!   (wasTree-Oxen)
Re: Smallpox
Still more website
Smuggler's holds
Re: What's green and lives under bridges?
Re: Lifting off
Re: Light Assault Gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:25:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:

>The Donosev was originally in the LBB Fighting Ships (forget the supp #
>right now), followed later on by the World Builder's Handbook, and the soon
>to be released G:T "First In".  She wasn't designed to be pretty, but to do
>a good job surveying.  To quote the WBH, "she's the backbone of the Imperial
>Grand Survey", or something like that.  BTW, I'm CREATING her and I doubt
>she'll appear as my wallpaper :)  She's got a face even a mother hates.

It's also featured in one of Grand Survey or Cencus, and in the MT
supplement 'The Flaming Eye'.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:55:19 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #213

>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Familie Spofulam
>
>Is there a FS family tree somewhere?
>
>Its time the Familie had its own website.
>

'Tree' is the wrong word, I think.

Do we have a topologist in the house ?

>
>- --
>Bloo

>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
>
>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>
>> I heartily second that motion!  Ditzie has been absent for far too long!
>>
>> We want Spofulam!
>>
>> We want Spofulam!
>>
>> We want Spofulam!
>>
>> (And why isn't one of the Famille joining the Gallatin et al. debate?
>> The Sayat might have to speak up soon...)
>
>While we're at what ever happened to Commander X?
>
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!
>
>Mummm.....
>
>AYEEEEEE!

C'mon, I just posted the stereo.

Cant people tell me what a sick concept it was ? Or something ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:56:47 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

> Steven wrote:
>
> <snipped>  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
>   --S

Hi Steve, i don't think that would be possible at all. European firsts contacts with
native americans (as i live in Spain, i've studied most the Spanish settlements in South
America) was really a highly lethal event for native americans due to the european's
illnesses they brought and native had never had contact before.

But american natives and europeans had been isolated about 5000 or 10000 years only (im
not an archaeologist, does anybody know the exact date america was first settled?) and,
although they had no direct contact all these thousands of years, they lived in the same
world all these time, and they were somewhat similar before they leaved and settled
america (IIRC the firsts settlers were north european or maybe russians across the Bering
Strait...i don't know, does anybody?), at least more than Solomani and Vilani between
themselves.

The question is : is this also equal for Solomani and Vilani? When did they became
separated by evolution, maybe hundreds of thousands of years? And they've been living in
very different homeworlds, that have made evolve them inside different conditions...i
think it would be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic microorganism ) that
would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.

Just my 0.02 pesetas.

- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:07:06 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
> You've got some errors in your monetary units, unless the E21
> timeline diverges from ours sometime in the recent past.  I've
> indicated the correct units below.
>

I live in Spain, and nowadays, the monetary unit is still the "peseta", although now all banks begin to tell you also in euros the amount of money you have/move.

And UK still has the pound (will not have the euro as the only currency by someday in 2001 i think, because they didn't wanted to get in).

> >?? (UK)                     B    Pound
> London or Birmingham.  Unit might be Euro.
>
> >Madrid (Spain)              D    Peseta
>                                   Euro

- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 06:12:30 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #213

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >>
> >> We want Spofulam!
> >>
> >> (And why isn't one of the Famille joining the Gallatin et al. debate?
> >> The Sayat might have to speak up soon...)
> >
> >While we're at what ever happened to Commander X?
> >
> >David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >>         All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!
> >
> >Mummm.....
> >
> >AYEEEEEE!
> 
> C'mon, I just posted the stereo.
> 
> Cant people tell me what a sick concept it was ? Or something ?
> 
> Ian Whitchurch

Has anyone from the band Disaster Area approached you about upsizing
your stereo?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:51:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

In mail you write:

>>You'll be wanting my World Builder Deluxe software. It generates
>> extended details from a UWP based on the rules contained in
>> the World Builder's Handbook. It also generates Encounter Tables,
>> Psionic Instititutes details and Economic details. The program will
>> automatically create Extended World Details for an entire Sector
>> using standard SEC files.
>
> Fellow sophonts, Stuart is absolutely correct.
> I've combined Jim Vassilakos' Galactic 2.4 with
> output from Stuart's software and the results are
> fantastic.

Do we get source with both of these?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:06:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

>>> Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got
>>> decks perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the
>>> pad, some of it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to
>>> thrust (landed VTOL airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a
>>> landing gear failure.

>> It'll still break its back.
>
> Theoretically possible, but far less likley when it has less distance
> to fall.  An aircraft does _not_ usually break it's back on a landng
> gear failure

Aircraft don't weigh what a 40 meter starship does either. And the
aircraft that *do* carry really heavy stuff tend to have multiple gear
and be built low to the ground.

>> Also, consider the loading on the landing gear. Making retractable
>> gear for something that heavy is gonna be interesting.

> Not really. See how the Hercules and Starlifter handle it.

>> The stresses on the gear for a tail sitter require lighter gear.

> That's not correct.

> A tail sitter requires each piece of landing gear to handle more
> stress, because there's less of them due to the lack of surface area
> for mounting them.

Sorry, but the gear for a tail sitter doesn't have to take the sort of
lateral forces that aircraft landing gear do. Landing and braking
produce stresses that have no real counterpart for a tail sitter.

>>> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you
>>> land, or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more
>>> convenient for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they
>>> look cool that way.

>>Reason two makes no sense.
>
> It does if you think about it.
>
> It makes sense for the same reason that RORO freighters exist in the
> real world, it's easier to move cargo more or less horizontally in
> one plane.

> Now you could argue that grav makes this unneccessary, but if you are
> trying to move cargo between the two different types we're talking
> about here, the move requires either at least two 90 degree direction
> changes, or the moving of the parallel freighter vertically up each
> deck of the tail-sitter, with loading hatches on each deck
>
> Actually,  moving cargo between two tail-sitters is twice as difficult
> as moving from a parallel to a tail-sitter, which should make it
> obvious why tail-setters would be uncommon for cargo ships.

It's *just* as easy to *dock* either sort. It's internally storing them
that gets a bit odd. 

Cargo transfer depends on a lot of things. You'll note that container
ships already have most of the cargo handling gear that would be
required on a perp deck ship. 

And unless you have a good reason for making a large ship in a
non-compact configuration (ie not a sphere, cube, or the like) you need
cargo lifts or other cargo handling gear in the ship anyway. 

Given that most ground to orbit shuttles are fairly small compared to a
*big* cargo ship, it may well be most efficient to dock them at ports
on each deck. That will make cargo handling easier (and faster) than on
a parallel deck (and non-compact) cargo ship the same size, because you
won't be trying to funnel everything through a couple of hatches and
moving it all around on the same deck. 

Which is easier? loading from one warehouse and unloading into another,
or doing both from the *same* warehouse? I'd expect the first to be
*much* easier. So, having multiple decks makes loading and unloading
easier and faster.

Also, ships need to be able to shift cargo on their own. Remember,
while it's not as important as in airplanes or oceangoing vessels, trim
is *still* important. You'll want to ships center of mass to be on the
main thrust axis (as otherwise you have to waste some power on side
thrusts of some sort). And for manuevering it helps if the moment arms
are kept as short as possible (ie, the heaviest stuff is the closest to
the CoM). 

So ships are going to be shuffling cargo around at every stop, and I
wouldn't be surprised if they shuffled to stuff around during jump to
adjust for the fuel used in making the jump. 

And consider. If a "few decks" is better, than you'll want then square
or circular, both to minimize the cost of the walls for a given volume,
but also for maximum flexibility in placing cargo and in moving it
around. Warehouses are *not* long and thin! Neither will be cargo holds
in anything where design allows a choice. Ships and airplanes *have* to
be long and thing. Spacecraft don't. 

So we wind up with the big circular deck design. The "flying saucer".
And gee, it seems like it'd be easier to build (and fly!) if the thrust
was perpendicular to that big deck. 

Needle designs are just not practical for large cargo ships. Wedge
designs are a short of compromise for smaller ships. 

I see the big ships being spheres or cubes. And for aerodynamics, some
saucers and a lot of wide, blunt cones. 

Though a big flying wing may just be possible. It does take TL-8 or
better computer-aided controls (that's why the attempts in the 50s
failed). But it'd be a lot *broader* than the standard wedge design.
And it's need some *wide* runways. Still, it'd be a nice passenger
design (because you could "fly" it in, it might make folks more
comfortable, even though it'd be harder to handle in space). And some
would carry passengers and frieght.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:40:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: FCC update

In mail you write:

> From today's issue of 'Daily Brief' (mailto:subscribe-db@incinc.net to
> subscribe - it's a decent news summary) :
>
> * The Federal Communications Commission ruled yesterday that dial-up
> internet connections are interstate in nature and should therefore be
> subject to federal jurisdiction.
>     - future FCC hearings are planned on how rates for such dial-up
> connections should be set.
>
> Since what the FCC does to the internet will effect everyone on this list
> (well, maybe only those of us in North America), I thought you might want to
> know that the FCC is, again, examining how much we pay to access the
> internet.  This could be a good thing (the government does, occaisionally,
> *help* us) or it could be a bad thing (and considering the lobby pressure
> that the phone companies have available, and the fact that *they* want a
> per-minute fee schedule for internet access...)

Actually, this is almost certainly a case of ruling that ISPs have to
pay the local phone companies the same per line access charges that
long distance companies do. <sigh>

So it won't *directly* affect us. But the most likely *secondary*
effect will be increases in our connect rates.

BTW, the charges go into a pool that is used to subsidize *local* phone
service.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:47:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lifting off

In mail you write:

> I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader lift off?
>
> Does it lift off like a rocket, blasting the thrusters at the ground and
> generating lots of G's?
> Does it lift off like an airplane, thrusting perpendicular to gravity and
> relying on streamlining for lift?
> Does it lift off like a balloon, gently generating 1.01 G and floating into
> the sky?
>
> The answer, of course, will make a BIG difference to the general flavor of 
> the game!

The answer depends on the ship. Some will make like an airplane (as
aptly described elsewhere). Some, the "tail sitters" will lift-off
vertically.

The ones that lift off vertically will start "slow" and speed up. How
slow and how fast the speed up depends on several things. If their max
thrust is only a bit above surface grav, then they'll climb pretty
slowly at first, but even so, they'll be steadily gaining speed. 

Or they may be required to keep velocity low until they reach a certain
altitude (to prevent sonic booms from reaching the ground). 

And some older ships may even still use rockets! Chemical, fission or
fusion they'll be quite a sight to see as they ride that pillar of
flame into the sky. 

Even the vertical takeoff ships will start to angle their path some as
they gain altitude. Partly to get on course for whatever orbit they've
filed for, and partly to take advantage of the planet's spin. Here on
earth you can pick up a free 1000 miles an hour that way (at the
equator). Nothing to sneeze at!.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:54:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lifting off

In mail you write:

>         Thanks!  The best thing about this approach (or should that be
> departure?) is that it nixes the requirement for tail-sitter ships.  If you
> can contra-grav an entire freighter, by implication you ought to be able to
> build internal compensators as well.  After all, this is an sf game...
> Somethings have got to be doable by advanced technology or what's the point?

Only thing is, it'll be *cheaper* to operate the tail-sitter. Because
it doesn't need contragrav as long, and it doesn't need as must g-comp.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:54:09 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Smallpox

StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

>You know, there's something missing in canon.

Actually not, cf 'The Plague of Duskir'.

>You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
>had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
>that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
>the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.

<OPENCANOF WORMS>

This has been discussed, about a year ago, and we had a biologists'
flamewar on the topic. But I'm sure someone could post a summary of the two
views.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:27:13 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>For real fun political debate, watch "Prime Minister's Question Time" on
>C-SPAN.  John Major vs. Commons.  Great fun.

They do re-runs of Prime Minister's Question Time?!!!!!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:14:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>BTW, I got hit with a backorder from SJG when I ordered one of the
>BITS books.  They'd sold out and the reorder hadn't come in yet.
>This isn't a complaint, it's a congratulation.

Hmm. I know the second batch went out at the beginning of January, but I
haven't discussed any re-orders with Andy recently (things like TowerCon,
refocusing 101st Spaceborne, GT Shipyard and a few other topics came out
first).

>Keep 'em coming!

We hope too. I know of 3 more 101's in preparation at the moment - ACQ
(with Andy for layout), 101st (progressing slowly), and another Plots style
book. The adventures are also possible but real life time is a pain to get
at the moment.

But we'll keep em coming if you guys and gals keep on buying...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:47:45 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

><< Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %.  >>
>
>Is this in addition to a high income tax as well? if so, I am SO glad I live
>in the states...My sympathies Herr Greiman...
Thanks,
btw, its Volker, I dont call you Mr. Kimmel either... ;-)  
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:56:03 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Porcusquid!   (wasTree-Oxen)

	The Tree-Oxen sound awesome, I'll have to rememeber them.  They sort of
remind me of the favorite Traveller animal of my games:  The Porcusquid.  It's
sort of a horrid cross between a  cow-sized porcupine and a giant squid.  It
burrows undergound and pops up at the most inopportune times.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:02:18 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Smallpox

In a message dated 2/27/99 7:02:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
guillemp@ciberia.es writes:

<< very different homeworlds, that have made evolve them inside different
conditions...i
 think it would be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic
microorganism ) that
 would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.
  >>

	But remember, Vilani and Solomani are completely interfertile, so their
biologoy has not become that divergent, so disease organisms would probably be
still mutually dangerous (AIDS comes from monkeys after all).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:10:44 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Still more website

Okay, so I don't need sleep. The sections on the Ziru Sirka and the Terran
Free Traders are now up. And that I'm afraid is all I've got even halfway ready
at the moment.

So here's the link again

  <http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/promrise/index.htm>



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:24:11 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Smuggler's holds

>Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:26:56 -0900
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Interstellar polities in the Long Night (was Re: Quarterly 
>hate-fest?)
snip
>[Don't tell the players but Kedil class starships often come with an
>extra 1 ton smuggling hold hidden in the engine room & almost impossible
>to detect via scan when the ships fushion plant is operational.  Access
>to this hold is tight & items stored in it should have a maximum volume
>of 100kl each.]
	Here's a good option for a smuggling hold for you. If you don't use it
much its a waste of cargo space, but... <g> We had a group of characters
who didn't care much for certain Imperial entanglements.  Mostly they just
carried small arms and such they didn't want traced to them or questioned.
Occasionally they carried small amounts of questionable cargo.  It was
quite excellent for hiding a character at one point who had worn out his
welcome in a system.  They were boarded on exiting the system.  The crew of
the customs pinnace performed a fruitless inspection.  Where did they hide
the cargo you ask? Now that is a good question.  They had a Large stateroom
hidden on the other side of one of their LH2 tanks.  It was completely
inaccessible when the ship was fueled.  Their ship was configured to carry
12 months fuel for their reactors and as long as the fuel was in the proper
tank, you couldn't get to it.  they had to either dump some  reaction mass
or pump it to one of the tanks for the jump fuel.  The entire setup was
difficult, they always wore enviro suits when accessing it. 

	On this topic.  What's the best place anyone has come up with for
smuggling cargo on their ship?

								Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:45:19 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: What's green and lives under bridges?

> Not trolling!  Not not not!  I just wasn't around when this stuff came up, and
> it's important background for MTU.

Oops.  I'm sorry, then.  It's just that the plague of Duskir (sp?) used
to be a major trigger for this list, and we just had a discussion about
VTOL/HTOL.

I'm running the Traveller Adventure IMTU.  The March Harrier has a
miserable 1-g of fusion drive, without significant vectoring
capability.  It also has wheels on the ends of its landing gear.  It
takes off and lands like a jumbo-jet, only its 6000 tons and a jumbo's
400.  Starports of class D or higher, with specially prepared airstrips,
are required.

The launch has 2-g of thruster based drive, so by SOM:1 it can take-off
vertically without any problems.  This is my justification for the fat
trader having a launch -- to interface with the places that it can't
land at.

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:03:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

OK, a related question:

In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.

Assume that Our Heroes have a ship with 1g thrusters, 1g CG, on a 1g world.
 Would the CG neutalize the local gravity completely, allowing the ship to
thrust as if were already in micro-g?  What if the world was 1.5g?
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:15:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

At 01:42 PM 2/7/99 EST, you wrote:
>Does anyone  have the T4/FFS2 stats for the good old Light Assault Gun?  It
>doesn't appear in Emperor's Arsenal or Core book, before I took the
trouble >to run the numbers, I wanted to see if any of you had done it.

Could somebody send me the Book 4 stats?  I need the hard numbers from the
Ironmongrey chapter.  My copy seems to have gone AWOL?

I need the TL, descriptions of the rounds, length weight, and any other
hard numbers.

Thanks!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #214
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 215



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How do Free Traders take off?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: What's green and lives under bridges?
Jim's/Stuart's Traveller Software Locations
Re: Smuggler's holds
Milieu E21 Spaceports
TL9 Colony Shuttle
Re: Smallpox
Re: Lifting Off
Re: Smallpox
Re: Smuggler's holds
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Familie Spofulam
Re: How do Free Traders take off?
Re: Lifting off
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Jump training

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 06:58:44
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: How do Free Traders take off?

At 08:00 AM 2/27/99 -0000, you wrote:
>Come now, everyone knows how free traders lift. It goes like this:
>
>Standard Lift Drill:

<snip>

Permission to add this to The Silly Era?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:07:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

At 12:27 PM 2/27/99 +0000, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>
>>For real fun political debate, watch "Prime Minister's Question Time" on
>>C-SPAN.  John Major vs. Commons.  Great fun.
>
>They do re-runs of Prime Minister's Question Time?!!!!!

Oh, yass.. my craizer roomate and I whatch it all the time to see how far
we Americans have fallen in the art of the insult.  We also enjoy yelling
at the screen demanding a return to absolute monarchy.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:13:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Quarterly hate-fest?

At 12:05 AM 2/27/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Well, not being a TML great old one* (Doug B, 

<snip>

I feel a new .sig coming on...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:44:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: What's green and lives under bridges?

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

> IMTU, folks in the Spinward Marches have mostly Terran names.  This
> isn't for political reasons, it's esthetic.  Earth has hundreds of
> cool languages from which to choose names, while Vland has only one.  
> I find it dull if everyone is named Eneri.
> 
> So I let about 20% of my NPCs have Vilani names, in amongst the
> Japanese and Africans and whatever.  But I need a justification for
> why so many Terrans and so few Vilani settled in the Marches and
> smallpox (or influenza) seemed like a good answer.

Skipping the whole microbial issue, there's an excuse written into CT and
MT background materials that takes care of the problem of so many people
having Terran names & habits -- huge numbers of the Vilani assimilated, or
tried their best to, during the ROM.

> BTW, I wish someone could clue me as to what ever became of the
> lesbian Aslan pirates, too.

They realized it's totally impossible make a profit and so they're off
mining near-c asteroids, last I heard.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:20:27 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Jim's/Stuart's Traveller Software Locations

Apologies for waxing poetic about Jim's/Stuart's efforts
and then not providing links.

Stuart's WBD software is at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

Click on his Traveller Resource Centre link and look
around.


Jim's software (Traveller/D&D/etc.) can be found at:
http://members.aol.com/jimvassila/progs.htm

Click on the link for Galactic 2.4

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:00:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggler's holds

- ---Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net> wrote:
> 	On this topic.  What's the best place anyone has come up with for
smuggling cargo on their ship?
> 

I had a group of players who were dealing in artifacts, both Darrian
and Ancient.  They used missiles for the small stuff.  They only had
to jettison once.  Well, they din't HAVE to, but they got scared. 
They spent over a week trying to find the thing, only to retrieve a
piece of artwork that had been crushed by the g's.
==
___________________________________________________
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant

          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

         Now a proud member of Downport.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:09:37 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21 Spaceports

For national spaceports, I went on current GNP alone.  It's tough
enough doing that, I didn't even want to go near political climates
or spending plans.

For national spaceport locations, I picked fairly prominent cities more or
less at random.  For the early years, all spaceports are downgraded by
1.  For the late years, all spaceports are upgraded by 1.  And by spaceport,
here's what I'm thinking:

Class E: more or less, whatever flat spaces are available there.  This includes
airports.
Class D: able to refuel most interplanetary fuel systems.
Class C: has launch+maint facilities for reusable, manned boats.
Class B: active shipyards which build various types of sturdy, reusable, manned boats.

Suffice it to say that we don't have class B starports in the general
sense of the term.  We don't really even have class C starports:
our reusable shuttles land in a desert (now that's class E!) -- I
suppose their refuelling stations are tailored only for shuttles.  That
means it's a very poor general-purpose refuelling station.  I'd put
Houston at a G -- the D's poor cousin: highly specialized to provide
just enough maintenance to service a very small fleet with a very
narrow purpose.  Sorry, no customers.

In fact, the spaceports should probably be F, G, and H, rather than
C, D, and E, huh?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:32:35 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: TL9 Colony Shuttle

TL9 Colony Shuttle  800 tons   MCr 107.25 (134KCr/t)
Jump Drive   : J-0
Thrust Plates: 1G       (210 MW)
Power Plant  : 375 MW
Crew/SRs     : 8
Pass/SRs     : 10
Controls     : Civilian improved comm
Fuel         : 160 t
Module       : 500 t

Estimated operational cost per month: KCr 65

This ship is the ultimate passenger/cargo carrier for in-system
development.  In Earth orbit, a 500-unit emergency low berth
module is installed, containing 2000 colonists.  On arrival to Mars,
the module is received in orbit, and a 500-ton raw materials
module is loaded on the ship, which still has enough fuel to return
to Earth.  The low berth components are cannibalized for parts on
Mars, and the module hull is refitted to hold raw materials for
carriage back to Earth on the next Colony Shuttle.

Twenty such ships making 25 trips per year can move one million
colonists to Mars or the Belt and 250,000 dtons of raw materials
back to Earth.

(Note: the cost of this ship is in 3I TL15 Credits... the actual dollar-cost
is much higher -- say, 30x or more.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:23:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> By the way, smallpox killed scads and scads of Eurpoeans too, all the time, it was
> just
> worse for the Injuns.

And it wasn't just smallpox.  It was a whole host of pathogens and viruses.
Smallpox has the distinction of having been overtly used as a weapon against
the Indians.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:48:04 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Lifting Off

>Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:03:00
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Lifting off
>
>In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
>atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
>drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
>

No need to get fancy. Top atmospheric speed is a function of drag, which in
turn depends on atmospheric pressure. Top atmospheric speeds are usually
based on 1 atm; as the ship climbs, the atmospheric pressure drops and the
top speed increases. At the level of accuracy of a handwave (i.e., I
haven't done the math), this should be sufficient to allow them to fly into
orbit. Ultimately, drag is no longer a factor and you're using acceleration
and space maneuvering statistics instead.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:08:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Guillem Plasencia wrote:
> 

> The question is : is this also equal for Solomani and Vilani? When did they became
> separated by evolution, maybe hundreds of thousands of years? And they've been living in
> very different homeworlds, that have made evolve them inside different conditions...i
> think it would be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic microorganism ) that
> would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.

1) Humans and Vilani are still interfertile, so their physiology is more than
similar enough for them to catch terran diseases.

2) As others have mentioned, there is in canon just such an event, the Plague
of Duskir.

3) From what I recall of the discussion, things hinged on whether the Vilani,
who, after all, had survived contact with a number of other human populations,
had either developed some better medical treatment, and that the POD was an
aberration, or that _all_ of the human minor races had been removed from terra
long enough so that _all_ of them were susceptible to all the nasties that the
Terrans were inadvertently spreading about the remains of the First Imperium.

4) Disease evolution _does_ in fact occor at a rapid rate, that the Amerind
and European poulations had been isolated for somewhere between 5 and 12,000
years (depending on who you believe in _that_ little current archaeological
flamefest, it could be even longer) is ample time for pathogens to change dramatically.

Also, while smallpox was one of the big ones sweeping through the native
population, so was influenza and measles, which killed almost as many as
smallpox did.

We know for a fact, that syphilis, which the natives gave back, in echange for
smallpox and measles, has abated dramatically in virulence and severity since
it was introduced to the (immunologically) naive populations in Europe. A
similar effect is postulated for the end of the Black Death plagues in Europe
as well.

Viruses mutate even more rapidly that bacteria, as the annual 'new strain of
flu' is due to passage and mutation through a different species host. 

My own opinion is that the Terrans would have been quite unlikely to resort to
biological warfare. While the Vilani had no real experience with major
infectios diseases, the Terrans had thousands and thousands of years of
written history on the subject, and would consider bio-warfare just too
dangerous a weapon to use; far too likely to turn on it's wielder than not.

My own feeling is that the Plague of Duskir was something like the Great Flu
pandemic of 1918; a particularly virulent strain of influenza, but still one
that kills more due to secondary infections than the original disease itself.
The Terrans were likely more resistant than the other populations, the Vilani
had a lifestyle that facilitated rapid spreading of the disease (a more
communal living pattern) and a steady stream of new secondary infection
vectors in the enormous population upheavals of the early ROM years.

That the only ones well equipped to deal with the plague were the Terrans only
added to the problem...it is likely that despite their best efforts, they were
themselves the source of many of the secondary pathogens that cause things
like pneumonia.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:24:04 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Smuggler's holds

Andy Holzrichter wrote:

> They had a Large stateroom
> hidden on the other side of one of their LH2 tanks.  It was completely
> inaccessible when the ship was fueled.  Their ship was configured to carry
> 12 months fuel for their reactors and as long as the fuel was in the proper
> tank, you couldn't get to it.  they had to either dump some  reaction mass
> or pump it to one of the tanks for the jump fuel.  The entire setup was
> difficult, they always wore enviro suits when accessing it.

I had a similar thought for a smuggling hold once.  But won't a good densitometer
see that easily?  It seems a bit on the obvious side to escape without much
scrutiny.

After having some experience assisting the Drug Task Force of the US Attorney's
office and talking to FBI, Customs and DEA agents, and Traveller of course,
I'm convinced that the only way to effective smuggle/hide items that you don't
want
to be discovered: put the goods where they won't be looked for.  No brilliant
conclusion, of course.

At the time of a search, the authorities know where you are, where you've been,
and very often all of the areas you've had access to.  Having seen the after
effects
of very thourough searches, I think that there is only one kind of thing that
doesn't get the scrutiny that it may deserve.  Seemingly solid objects.

Thats not things that appar visually solid, but those that are actually solid.
A normal stud/drywall 'appears' solid, but we all know, when we think about it,
that its hollow.  But a brick wall is much more solid (depending on the actual
brick of course).   As long as the normally solid object continues to behave
as expected, i.e., doesn't sound hollow when you tap it, etc., it will probably
not be examined.  Ok, to starships . . .

The two main methods for smuggling contraband: Hide it or Disguise it.

The Customs Inspectors favorite tool is the Densitometer.  So, the goods need
to be hidden among items of equal density.  Thus, the ideal place will vary with
the
item.  But it seems to me that the denser items, between hull and inner
environment
might be ideal.  No between stateroom walls, or overhead and underfoot.  Those
places are begging to be looked at.  But in the small space between outer hull and
inner
wall.  Might even be worth a weak spot in the armor.

But, IMHO, the best method is to disguise the goods.  Especially if you can break
the goods down into component parts, and mix them with similar looking goods.
Gun barrels can be placed with special piping, etc.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:39:43 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 01:42 PM 2/7/99 EST, you wrote:
> >Does anyone  have the T4/FFS2 stats for the good old Light Assault Gun?  It
> >doesn't appear in Emperor's Arsenal or Core book, before I took the
> trouble >to run the numbers, I wanted to see if any of you had done it.
>
> Could somebody send me the Book 4 stats?  I need the hard numbers from the
> Ironmongrey chapter.  My copy seems to have gone AWOL?
>
> I need the TL, descriptions of the rounds, length weight, and any other
> hard numbers.

Light Assault Gun:
ammunition: 20mm, 30 gram round (types: HE, flechette, 20/9mm discarding sabot)
magazine: 5 rounds
velocity: 400-500 m/s
length: 900mm
weight, unloaded: 4 kg
weight of loaded magazine: 0.5 kg
base price: Cr600
magazine price, loaded: Cr50
TL: 8
Required Dexterity: 7  DM: -2
Advantageous Dexterity: 10 DM +2

Range Matrix: (close/short/medium/long/very long)
Discarding Sabot: -8/0/+2/+1/-2  Wounrds: 4D
HE: -4/+1/+1/0/-1  Wounds: 4D
Flechette: -4/+1/+3/+2/-1  Wounds: 2D
(note: treat HE and Flechette LAW shots at close and short range as
rifle shots for armor and hits).

Weapons Matrix: (nothing/jack/mesh/cloth/reflec/ablat/battle)
Discarding Sabot: +3/+3/+2/+1/+3/+3/0
HE: +3/+3/0/-2/+3/+1/-4
Flechette: +5/+5/0/-3/+5/+2/-5

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:37:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Familie Spofulam

I heartily second that motion!  Maybe as part of the WebSector Project?
Jesse




>Is there a FS family tree somewhere?
>
>Its time the Familie had its own website.
>
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:39:07 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: How do Free Traders take off?

ROFL!!!!
Jesse



>Come now, everyone knows how free traders lift. It goes like this:
>
>Standard Lift Drill:
>
>1. Everyone runs into the docking bay, firingover their shoulders at
>pursuing bad guys.
>
>2. Pilot and engineer run into ship. Bash consoles and yell at one another.
>Everyone else conducts fighting retreat. Much collateral damage is
necessary
>for a good takeoff.
>
>3. Engines make a noise at last. Everyone rushes in.
>
>4. Ship lifts on CG, retracts undercariage as bad guys fire futile
fusilades
>of smallarms fire at ship.
>
>5. Ship accelerates in a rapidly steepening climb, watched by irate bad
>guys.
>
>6. Crew cheer and slap one another on the back. Begin Jump Insertion Drill
>(which requires the assistance of a squadron of fighters and a couple of
>Navy vessels....)
>
>
>They used this isea in a movie once, I seem to recall. But anyway... that's
>how Free Traders take off.
>
>MJD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:53:18 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> OK, a related question:
>
> In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
> atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
> drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
>
> Assume that Our Heroes have a ship with 1g thrusters, 1g CG, on a 1g world.
>  Would the CG neutalize the local gravity completely, allowing the ship to
> thrust as if were already in micro-g?  What if the world was 1.5g?

Thats my understanding.  Someone probably has a correct answer, but heres
how I handle it (probably totally wrong):

Ship Acceleration - (World G - CG lift) = max thrust available
So, in your first example: 1G - (1G - 1G) = 1G.
Second: 1G - (1.5G - 1G) = 1G - 0.5G = 0.5G

But then, escape velocity issues has never been an issue for me really.

FWIW: from GT, p.119:
"Any ship with a continuous accelerations of more than 1G can blast
straight up and escape Earth gravity [1G]."  The time listed for this
is 30 hours. Adding CG of 1G, 18 minues.

All of this discussion reinforces my conclusion that, for MTU, that
at TL8+, actually landing on a planets surface would be undesirable
most of the time.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:09:37 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> For national spaceports, I went on current GNP alone.  It's tough
> enough doing that, I didn't even want to go near political climates
> or spending plans.

I sort of suspected as much.  IMHO, GNP alone isn't really a good
criteria.  It doesn't take into account many important economic
effects that will impact the ability to build and maintain a functioning
starport.

> For national spaceport locations, I picked fairly prominent cities more or
> less at random.  For the early years, all spaceports are downgraded by
> 1.  For the late years, all spaceports are upgraded by 1.  And by spaceport,
> here's what I'm thinking:

I think if you downgrade them all by 1 in the early part of the century,
you have no place capable of building starshps, strictly speaking
since C's can only repair.

> Class E: more or less, whatever flat spaces are available there.  This includes
> airports.

And drylake beds, etc.  Probably too much of the world to enumerate.

> Class D: able to refuel most interplanetary fuel systems.

Won't any airport with access to water and a fuel processor meet this
criteria?

> Class C: has launch+maint facilities for reusable, manned boats.
> Class B: active shipyards which build various types of sturdy, reusable, manned boats.
>
> Suffice it to say that we don't have class B starports in the general
> sense of the term.  We don't really even have class C starports:
> our reusable shuttles land in a desert (now that's class E!)

Umm, it lands at Air Force bases doesn't it?  Maybe C, definitely D.

> -- I
> suppose their refuelling stations are tailored only for shuttles.  That
> means it's a very poor general-purpose refuelling station.  I'd put
> Houston at a G -- the D's poor cousin: highly specialized to provide
> just enough maintenance to service a very small fleet with a very
> narrow purpose.  Sorry, no customers.
>
> In fact, the spaceports should probably be F, G, and H, rather than
> C, D, and E, huh?

I don't think there is any need to go beyond E and X.

But facilities like Houston are still, IMO, going to be he focus of port
development.  I think they're close to B, a TL-8 B. The defining characteristic
to me being that they build spaceworthy ships there.  Though not strictly
a part of the starport criteria, the proximity of the Houston and Texas
facilities to very large populations, prominent sea and air ports, makes
it much more likely for them to be the focus of US spaceport development.
After that, Mid Atlantic (between Boston and DC) and California would be
priorities.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:12:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

In a message dated 2/27/99 10:18:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< 
 Could somebody send me the Book 4 stats?  I need the hard numbers from the
 Ironmongrey chapter.  My copy seems to have gone AWOL?
 
 I need the TL, descriptions of the rounds, length weight, and any other
 hard numbers.
  >>

Doug,

	Since, I asked the question in the first place, here are the stats for the
LAG from Book 4
The LAG fires a 20mm, 30 gram bullet at velocities of 400 to 500 meters per
second.  A magazine containing 5 rounds is inserted into the underside of the
weapon ahead of the trigger guard..   One round is fired per pull of the
trigger.  Ammunition includes HE, flechette and 20mm/9mm discarding sabot.  A
sling is provided.  Length is 900mm.  Weight unloaded 4000 grams.  loaded
magazine 500 grams.   Base price 600cr, magazine 20cr.  TL 8.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:13:57 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump training

- -----Original Message-----
From: KenRoney@aol.com <KenRoney@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Jump training


>I've been following this discussion and thought it might be useful to weigh
in
>with a little canon data on Marine v. Army jump troops.  I pulled out my
copy
>of "Fifth Frontier War".  Since it depicts a sizable chunk of the Imperial
>military, I feel that it constitutes a valid sample to study.  When I look
it
>over I found 8 regiments of jump capable Marines, as well as the semi-jump
>capable 4518th reg.(Duke of Regina's own Huscarles).  These regiments are
>rated in game terms as 5 strength points (battalion equivents) and Tech
level
>15.  Buried amongst the thousands of strength ponts of Imperial Army troops
>(mostly Tech 14-15 lift infantry with a good proportion of other unit
types) I
>was able to locate two, count em, two regiments of Army jump troops, rated
at
>5 strength points and tech level 14 and 15 respectively.  This demonstrates
>that the Army has Jump troops, but much less of them than are possessed by
the
>Marines.  It is possible that a multitude of Jump Troop regiments are
"buried"
>within the 500 and 100 point Army and Corp level units, but only if you
assume
>a significant presence (say 1 regiment per corps) the total number of Jump
>Troops will the Army Jump Troopers seriously outnumber the Marine variety.
I
>actually do not feel that this is the case.  The Imperial Army units
comprise
>a wide variery of independant regiments and divisions.  If the Army fielded
>large numbers of Jump troop units, they would have shown up for the big
one,
>the Fifth Frontier War.  But they just are not there.  The Imperial Army
does
>not appear to place a high priority on budgeting Jump Troops in their OB.
>Based on this, my theory is that the relatively small numbers of Army or
>Marine Jump troopers are given the responsibility for most meteoric
assaults
>where the tactical situation requires them, but that Imperial army doctrine
>must hold that for most assaults, assault shuttles or the lift troopers
>organic grav vehicles are the preferred method to use when making the drop
to
>the target world's surface.  Such an assault would be slower, and subject
to
>interception on the way down, but once down, the Army regulars would could
>dish out damage an order of magnitude greater than the lightly equipped
Jump
>troopers, be they Army or Marine.  Any comments?
>
>Ken


Looking at the numbers is a little sticky because we don't have the totals
for the Imperium.  What I did was look at the present U.S. and Soviet
generic Order of Battle and tried to crunch some numbers from there.  I
guess the thing that is hardest is to see that routinely when you have a
"Corps" (Marine) size unit (50-60,000 personnel) you would have about five
"Army" (200-250,000 personnel) size units.  Each of these Armies would
consist of  two Mech Infantry, one Armor and one Airborne/Air Assault (Jump)
Corps'.  Lets say that isn't the case in the Imperium but that you only have
a Division size (10-14,000 personnel) Jump unit per Army (with company and
battalion sized units placed appropriatly.)  With five Armies that would
give you five Divisions of Jump capable troops.  That still adds up to more
than the entire Marine Corps.  The next point is that all Marines are Jump
certified but only about 10%+ of them are on Jump status.  That total would
come to about 6-8,000 personnel.  Now we're back to less than a Division and
the numbers crunch out pretty close to todays actual numbers.  Soviet
numbers come out about the same even though their Order of Battle is quite
different from the U.S.  I'm not all that familiar with other countries
Armiesd but for the most part I have a feeling that if anything their Jump
forces are even smaller than the U.S.

I think back to WWII and the assault tactics used throughout the campaign.
The real Airborne attacks were done by the Armies including glider insertion
in Europe.  The Marines tended to "Take the beach" in the Pacific campaign
and not do air insertion.  Almost all Jumps in the Pacific were for
espionage purposes.  I can't remember how this was done in the Faulklands,
anybody????
Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #215
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 216



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT: FCC update
Re: Pyramid
Re: What's green and lives under bridges?
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #215
Re: Smallpox
Milieu E21 1. call for graphics; 2. reply about spaceports
Milieu: E21
Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)
Re: Dagudashaag sector web site (long)
Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
color of scout ships
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Jump training
Re: Pyramid
World Hooks 2
World Hooks 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 14:11:39 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: OT: FCC update

On 02/27/99 at 01:40 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> * The Federal Communications Commission ruled yesterday that dial-up
>> internet connections are interstate in nature and should therefore be
>> subject to federal jurisdiction.
>>     - future FCC hearings are planned on how rates for such dial-up
>> connections should be set.

>> Since what the FCC does to the internet will effect everyone on this list
>> (well, maybe only those of us in North America), I thought you might want to
>> know that the FCC is, again, examining how much we pay to access the
>> internet.  This could be a good thing (the government does, occaisionally,
>> *help* us) or it could be a bad thing (and considering the lobby pressure
>> that the phone companies have available, and the fact that *they* want a
>> per-minute fee schedule for internet access...)

>Actually, this is almost certainly a case of ruling that ISPs have to
>pay the local phone companies the same per line access charges that
>long distance companies do. <sigh>

That seems to be the direction things are going.  The "per-minute"
fee *is* something being pushed by a number of powerful lobbies. 

>So it won't *directly* affect us. But the most likely *secondary*
>effect will be increases in our connect rates.

Yep, which will affect the sort of things folks in the US do on the
net, which *will* affect non-US netizens, at least, peripherially.

>BTW, the charges go into a pool that is used to subsidize *local*
>phone service.

Uh, huh, you know what a blackhole *that* is. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:48:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/27/99 4:50:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
greimann@geocities.com writes:

<< btw, its Volker, I dont call you Mr. Kimmel either... ;-)   >>

I prefer Herr Von Kummel.....:-) (I love delusions of grandeur; though I think
somebody on my father's side was a Berlin merchant and bought a knighthood...)

Ob Trav: My PC's will do ANYTHING to get Soc stat B!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:54:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: What's green and lives under bridges?

In a message dated 2/27/99 6:42:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, dns@interlog.com
writes:

<< The launch has 2-g of thruster based drive, so by SOM:1 it can take-off
 vertically without any problems.  This is my justification for the fat
 trader having a launch -- to interface with the places that it can't
 land at. >>

It is also effectively an elevator for the passengers. I have several fat
trader deckplans (from various products), and most of them just have floor
iris hatches (and their ladders) for access from the cargo deck to the
passenger deck. As a skipper; I would either install a small lift, or use the
launch as a lift for my high passage passengers (they board the launch and
transfer to the passenger deck) , so they don't have to climb up and down
ladders. Of course; there is a short ladder from the floor of the launch to
the passenger deck, so this isn't enrtirely satisfactory...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:56:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

In a message dated 2/27/99 7:18:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< Could somebody send me the Book 4 stats?  I need the hard numbers from the
 Ironmongrey chapter.  My copy seems to have gone AWOL?
  >>

Doug; I think my used bookstore has a copy. Let me know if you need it...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:01:03 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #215

>Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:24:04 -0500
>From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Re: Smuggler's holds
>
>Andy Holzrichter wrote:
>
>> They had a Large stateroom
>> hidden on the other side of one of their LH2 tanks.  It was completely
>> inaccessible when the ship was fueled.  Their ship was configured to carry
>> 12 months fuel for their reactors and as long as the fuel was in the proper
>> tank, you couldn't get to it.  they had to either dump some  reaction mass
>> or pump it to one of the tanks for the jump fuel.  The entire setup was
>> difficult, they always wore enviro suits when accessing it.
>
>I had a similar thought for a smuggling hold once.  But won't a good 
>densitometer
>see that easily?  It seems a bit on the obvious side to escape without much
>scrutiny.
snip
>The two main methods for smuggling contraband: Hide it or Disguise it.
snip
>Bloo
	At the time we hadn't considered someone looking by density.   It was
mostly being hidden by the absurdity of putting something there.  All you
have to do is go through the tank of LH2.  People do NOT climb through
tanks of LH2.  Therefore you cannot have a storage location there.  Someone
with a densitomiter could probably find there is a hollow space over there.
 They might have a hard time figuring out WHAT is in the hollow space.
Sometimes interpreting the intelligence is the hardest part of the job.
They never really abused the hold so I picked on them for other things.
I'll have to remember this one and have a crooked customs official hold
them up for some CR sometime. <g>  Thanks.

								Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:41:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:56:47 +0100, Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
> <snipped>  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it
>possible
> that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.

>The question is : is this also equal for Solomani and Vilani? When did
>they became
>separated by evolution, maybe hundreds of thousands of years? And they've
>been living in
>very different homeworlds, that have made evolve them inside different
>conditions...i
>think it would be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic
>microorganism ) that
>would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.

Bacteria aren't that specific.  They don't see you as an
"organism" but as just a bunch of chemicals and bacteria
are masters of adapting to new chemicals.  There is fairly
far fetched that the Vilani didn't have an bacteria to contend
with.

OTOH, viruses are another matter altogether.  They are quite
specific and it seems quite probably that the Vilani didn't
have any to contend with from Vland and had very little resistance
to ones from Earth.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:46:21 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21 1. call for graphics; 2. reply about spaceports

Hey folks, I need some cool graphics with which I can spruce up
my E21 supplement.  I've got a skeleton page, and am looking for
deckplans, installation maps, and flashy stuff like exploding ships,
asteroid flybys, Jupiter, etc etc.

Thanks for the dialogue.  I tend to just do something, which means
the product isn't perfect, or I try to plan it all out perfectly, which
means it never gets done.  This helps me to decide how credible
my ideas are... so far, I think they're defendable; however, Bloo
has good points which are just as defendable: after all, there's no
almanac for the future that I know of.  The big issue, of course, is
where the starports should go.  This is such a nasty issue.  I once
posted some cities, off the top of my head, that seemed likely to
have spaceports.  The TML reaction was unpleasant, and I
bathed in a backlash of economics, politics, and other chum for
awhile.  So this time I picked one single statistic and came up
with a list that, over all, doesn't have too many detractors.  This
I take as a good sign.


Bloo Respondez:

> For national spaceports, I went on current GNP alone.  It's tough
> enough doing that, I didn't even want to go near political climates
> or spending plans.

I sort of suspected as much.  IMHO, GNP alone isn't really a good
criteria.  It doesn't take into account many important economic
effects that will impact the ability to build and maintain a functioning
starport.

    Yah, what you speak is no doubt true.  However, the difference
    probably isn't enough to make me want to look at it... after all,
    if I change one site I probably should review them all... and my
    chances of doing that are... probably Zero!

> For national spaceport locations, I picked fairly prominent cities more or
> less at random.  For the early years, all spaceports are downgraded by
> 1.  For the late years, all spaceports are upgraded by 1.  And by spaceport,
> here's what I'm thinking:

I think if you downgrade them all by 1 in the early part of the century,
you have no place capable of building starshps, strictly speaking
since C's can only repair.

    Yes, sort of correct.  In fact, worlds with only C-class starports are capable
    of constructing starships at their tech level.  Therefore, Earth should be
    capable of doing it too without a B.

> Class D: able to refuel most interplanetary fuel systems.

Won't any airport with access to water and a fuel processor meet this
criteria?

    Perhaps.  I assume it can't, but I'm not sure.  If it buys a fuel processor,
    then it will also have to extend its facilities to handle spaceborne traffic
    as well as air traffic.  This might create a nightmare for Air Traffic Authority...
    perhaps it's better if the facilities are separated a bit... a bit more... a bit
    more... oh heck, it's a different facility completely: a spaceport.

    That's what I see.  It doesn't have to be that way.  But I think it's more
    difficult than it's worth to upgrade an airport to handle spaceships.

    I did some guesstimating, and a typical passenger jet displaces around
    400 to 500 tons.  How's that for perspective?

> Class C: has launch+maint facilities for reusable, manned boats.
> Class B: active shipyards which build various types of sturdy, reusable, manned boats.
>
> Suffice it to say that we don't have class B starports in the general
> sense of the term.  We don't really even have class C starports:
> our reusable shuttles land in a desert (now that's class E!)

Umm, it lands at Air Force bases doesn't it?  Maybe C, definitely D.

    I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
    White Sands, New Mex?

> -- I
> suppose their refuelling stations are tailored only for shuttles.  That
> means it's a very poor general-purpose refuelling station.  I'd put
> Houston at a G -- the D's poor cousin: highly specialized to provide
> just enough maintenance to service a very small fleet with a very
> narrow purpose.  Sorry, no customers.
>
> In fact, the spaceports should probably be F, G, and H, rather than
> C, D, and E, huh?

I don't think there is any need to go beyond E and X.

    Ah, what I mean is to use the Traveller spaceport codes F, G, and
    H, which represent system-service starports.  F is sort of like a C,
    G sort of like a D, and H -> E.  This isn't new terminology, just
    not used because Traveller seldom worries about insystem travel.

But facilities like Houston are still, IMO, going to be he focus of port
development.  I think they're close to B, a TL-8 B. The defining characteristic
to me being that they build spaceworthy ships there.  Though not strictly
a part of the starport criteria, the proximity of the Houston and Texas
facilities to very large populations, prominent sea and air ports, makes
it much more likely for them to be the focus of US spaceport development.
After that, Mid Atlantic (between Boston and DC) and California would be
priorities.

    You may well be right.  The Houston area can be a large military/
    industrial space manufacturing center, until the orbital drydocks go
    on-line at least.  It doesn't even have to be a public spaceport -- it can
    just manufacture modular components, and have a government/military-only
    spaceport. Once space flight is productized and commercialized,
    though, we'll want terminals at several major hubs.

    However, I wonder if the shuttle really was built in Houston?  Ah, the
    orbiter was built in California...
    And, it is fuelled and takes off from Florida, and lands in NMex...
    what's left in Houston, then, is a control "tower"... and some spent
    Saturn V engines.  There's not even a shuttle there...

    -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:52:12 +1300
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: Milieu: E21

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>>>>>
Class D Spaceports

Wellington (New Zealand)    D    Dollar
>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry to ask but, where did this list come from? Wellington would make a
lousy spaceport - the transport net and industrial base to support it
just aren't there. Also, if co-located with the airport, it would be
rather small and very cramped  (also exceedingly dangerous - wellington
is in the top 5 most dangerous international airports in the world.) If
not located with the airport you may as well call it Horowhenua
spaceport or such it'd have to be so far out.

Can we get it shifted to Auckland? one-third of the countries
population, industry and the best container port in Austrolasia. Plus,
plenty of room for a decent sized spaceport - and all within an hour's
drive!!!

Christchurch might also be a good option - smaller city (and Colder!!!)
but the port of Lyttleton is large and very capable.

No, No, I don't live anywhere near Auckland.
Really.

Jonathan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:54:22 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)

Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:47:04 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> Does it lift off like a rocket, blasting the thrusters at the ground and
>> generating lots of G's?
>> Does it lift off like an airplane, thrusting perpendicular to gravity and
>> relying on streamlining for lift?
>> Does it lift off like a balloon, gently generating 1.01 G and floating into
>> the sky?
>>
>> The answer, of course, will make a BIG difference to the general flavor of
>> the game!

>The answer depends on the ship. Some will make like an airplane (as
>aptly described elsewhere). Some, the "tail sitters" will lift-off
>vertically.

Note that in GT, vectored thrust makes "tail sitting" vs "belly
sitting" irrelevant.  Also, the ships designed in GT don't have
contragrav, so all ships take off by their manuever thrusters.

How a 1G ship takes off from a >1G planet was pretty much
ignored (like in CT).  Presumably (like in CT again) one
can "push" the dirve up for a few dozen minutes.

My approach would have been to simply tell players/GMs that if
they want a ships to take off of a world with more than 1G,
they should give it more than 1G of thrust.  (Otherwise,
you park in orbit and take a shuttle, secondary vehicle,
etc. down to the surface.  Presumably merchant ships would
be designed with something like 1.5 G of accleration so that
they can land on most worlds.


Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:03:00, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
>atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
>drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.

You just travel through the atmosphere at that velocity, as your
altitude increases, so does your top speed.  Eventually you
get out of the atmosphere and reach escape velocity.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:56:59 EST
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dagudashaag sector web site (long)

Dear Mark,

Were you aware that Dagudashaag has been fully detailed in the Uk FANZINE
Signal-GK and that BITs is about to produce a full encyclopedia of data
covering in detail every planet, noble, minor alien race, etc. Over 1,000
seperate entries. That will be followed (hopefully) by Crowes XenoBiologica
(full info on all minor alien races and the minor human races also) a Ref's
Guide etc... We've got a lot of data to call on. The planetary data (HIWG's
sector names were written by the Dagudashaag Development Team and Duncan Law-
Green - Dag' guru) has also been updated to take into account First Survey
data...

I'm about half way through the complete data now, most of the illos have been
drawn and draws on the work of all the authors who subscribed to S-GK over its
13 issues but has been greatly enhanced.

Will drop by and look at your site later.

Any comments

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 99 16:04:49 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 02/27/99 at 11:54 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Actually not, cf 'The Plague of Duskir'.

Oh, Phil??? ;->

>>You see where this is going?  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
>>had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
>>that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
>>the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.

><OPENCANOF WORMS>

>This has been discussed, about a year ago, and we had a biologists'
>flamewar on the topic. But I'm sure someone could post a summary of
>the two views.

This one has been gone over almost as many times as near-C
asteroids, jump torpedoes or Feudal Technocracies.  ;>

I don't want to revisit the "will it/won't it kill 'em all" issue,
instead I'd like to ask a question about the physical anthropology
of the human races...

We are told that the minor races were transplanted about 400,000
years ago, correct?  Given anthropology's current thought, just
what sub-species of hominids got transplanted?  Surely not homo
sapiens sapiens! We didn't exist yet! ;->

A cursory look indicates:

  Homo erectus                  -- ~1,600,000 to 200,000 BCE
  Homo sapiens                  -- ~500,000 to 200,000 BCE
  Homo sapiens neanderthalensis -- ~250,000 to 30,000 BCE
  Homo sapiens sapiens          -- ~100,000 BCE

If the ancients took humans from Earth about 400,000 BCE, they
didn't take modern humans, they took late erectus and/or very early
samples of sapiens.  These specimens would have had characteristics
much closer to Homo erectus than modern man.  Since 400,000 BCE a
great deal of evolution has occurred on earth including neanderthal
man and the development of modern man.

This means that the Vilani, Zhodani, and all the other minor human
races will have evolved along separate lines for a long enough time
to have marked physical differences from Solomani humans.  From the
neck down homo has been fairly similar since middle erectus (nearly
a million years ago), but marked changes have occurred to the
structure and shape of the head within the last couple of hundred
thousand years.

Isn't it likely that the transplanted homonids would be markedly
dissimilar in many ways, both obvious and internal? 

Who might have retained heavy brow ridges, markedly receding chin,
greater head width at the ear than the top (as in modern humans), or
even heavier (or redistributed) body hair?  And this doesn't address
the issues of skin, eye and hair color, or changes in non-boney
features.  Think about the shape and size of lips, the distribution
of fat around the eyes (and the effect on the external appearance of
the eye), hip width (and the effect that might have on the
sub-species' walk), or such things as leg/arm length.  Then there is
the parallel evolution of these transplanted homonids and species of
their new homeworlds.  There might be time for symbiotic
relationships to arise between these humans and local bacteria,
certainly *some* form of gut bacteria would exist within these
transplanted humans.

Isn't it even likely that some of these sub-species will not be
inter-fertile with each other or modern Solomani?

Just some things to think about...;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:24:34 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

Dom wrote:
>What would your feeling be if BITS published, say, a 40 page A4 (that's
>approximately the same size as the GT books) or 40 page A5 (101/LBB size)
>adventure module range with GT and T4 stats (T4 because it is pretty easy
>to convert back and is likely to be compatible with T5, if the drafts are
>to be believed)?

If you can get the neccesary permissions (I presume that won't be too
much trouble seeing as SJG is distributing BITS now) then GO FOR IT !


>What would your feelings be if these where art light like the GDW LBB
>Adventures?

No problem at all, though if you could connive a few line drawings
like Mr. Keith's out of someone, it would be better, I like a few
character sketches to show players.

>What if some of these were M:Generic 1100s or M:0?

Even better.

 I'd even be happy to try and contribute something if you wanted.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:22:19 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

Rob Eaglestone wrote:


> 
>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
>     White Sands, New Mex?
> 
IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
that.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:41:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: color of scout ships

Here's another question for the TML'ers out there for "First In".  Is there
a canon COLOR listed for Scout ships?  I've always used a tan with white
piping, but I was wondering if there was anything "official" out there.  I
perused the material I have and haven't found any references at this point.
I remember seeing a painting guide at David Golden's site, but it appears
not to be there anymore, at least useing the link off of Hyphen's page.  Any
help appreciated!!!

Thanks,
Jesse D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:35:22 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

>>Sorry, but it's hard to imagine a part of the Amercian continent where
>>the term "it sucks" is considered
>>rude ( Assuming one isn't talking about vacuum cleaners).
>
>  Just `cuz we're stuck on the same continent as them doesn't mean you have
>to lump us in with the Yanks,  you vicious kiwi, eh?

<grin>
You know what a kiwi looks like ?

It's hard to imagine a foot tall, hairy-feathered, flightless bird
with poor daylight eyesight and a beak that's designed only to suck
small insects out of the humus being considered viscious. Especially
as they don't run in packs.

Viscious, you hit me with a flower....
:-)

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:44:09 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump training

In a message dated 2/27/99 3:17:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
thomharr@mediaone.net writes:

<< 
 Looking at the numbers is a little sticky because we don't have the totals
 for the Imperium.  What I did was look at the present U.S. and Soviet
 generic Order of Battle and tried to crunch some numbers from there >>


	I would be inclined to take Ken's evidence from "Fifth Frontier War" as more
appropriate than using real-world figures from the 20th century.  After all,
Jump troops in the Third Imperium are a bit different from modern
paratroopers.   I imagine that jumping from orbit must have an order of
magnitude greater need for  extensive training and also an order of magnitude
difference (or more) in cost of equipment and training.   You can re-pack
parachutes, and while chute 1 is being repacked, you can make more training
jumps in the same day, at little consumable cost.  A jump capsule, however is
expensive and is used up in a training jump.  The need to make those jumps is
greater because there is even more things to go wrong in an orbital drop than
a plane drop, and It doesn't seem prudent to make a marine's first real drop
being a drop into a hot LZ.

			Dave Nelson  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:48:18 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/27/99 3:52:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I prefer Herr Von Kummel.....:-) (I love delusions of grandeur; though I
think
 somebody on my father's side was a Berlin merchant and bought a
knighthood...)
  >>

	Hey, fellow aristocrat!   One of my maternal ancestors was an Austro-
Hungarian count who owned a rope factory (although I am decended from the
black-sheep son who came to America and became a baker).   Oh, and an ancient
great-aunt of my father claims we are related to the Danish royal house by
marriage.  What a blue-blooded list!

		David Von Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:04 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 2

Another half dozen seeds. If the starport is in an underpopulated area,
even affairs that would normally be of purely local interest may come to
the attention of Travellers. 

7. A high population planet's entire agriculture is based on the
few terran import species that have been successfully geneered to
adapt to planetary conditions.  In spite of precautions, there is
currently a fast-spreading and virulent disease which attacks one
of these one of these. Thousands are already suffering
malnutrition and starvation. If the outbreak is not checked, it
could be a major planetary disaster affecting billions.

8. A colony which has survived for several generations has been suffering a
loss of productivity in their agricultural fields over a period of several
generations. Their expansion reached a limit some time ago, and they are
running out of nearby arable land. The colony is small and
doesn't have a strong university. The leaders have been appealing
for ouside help for some time, but the little response they have
recieved has been ineffective. [The problem is a gradual buildup
of trace minerals in the soil, something that "more fertilizer"
doesn't fix. Even if they know what is happening, they don't know 
how to prevent it, and they'd like to reverse the damage if possible]

9. A new settlement is having difficulty because the river it
depends for transportation is prone to unpredictable and severe
flooding on the one hand, and is non-navigable at times of low
water, which are also not easily predictable.

10. In one region of a planet, High humidity and an insidious
life-form make long-term storage of food very difficult, even
with good food preservation technology.

11. Two important cities situated on the same river have been
gradually expanding their irrigation networks. The downstream
city claims the upstream city is taking more than its fair share
of water and is polluting it.  The smaller upstream city claims
the downstream city is merely trying to bully it. Tensions
between the two cities are escalating.

12. In detailing a planet, useful data are:  its principal export
or exports; marketworlds for the product; principal imports; and
its principal export.  It's easier to determine these from the
trade class and TL than it is to figure how much of what is
traded.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:04 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 2

Another half dozen seeds. If the starport is in an underpopulated area,
even affairs that would normally be of purely local interest may come to
the attention of Travellers. 

7. A high population planet's entire agriculture is based on the
few terran import species that have been successfully geneered to
adapt to planetary conditions.  In spite of precautions, there is
currently a fast-spreading and virulent disease which attacks one
of these one of these. Thousands are already suffering
malnutrition and starvation. If the outbreak is not checked, it
could be a major planetary disaster affecting billions.

8. A colony which has survived for several generations has been suffering a
loss of productivity in their agricultural fields over a period of several
generations. Their expansion reached a limit some time ago, and they are
running out of nearby arable land. The colony is small and
doesn't have a strong university. The leaders have been appealing
for ouside help for some time, but the little response they have
recieved has been ineffective. [The problem is a gradual buildup
of trace minerals in the soil, something that "more fertilizer"
doesn't fix. Even if they know what is happening, they don't know 
how to prevent it, and they'd like to reverse the damage if possible]

9. A new settlement is having difficulty because the river it
depends for transportation is prone to unpredictable and severe
flooding on the one hand, and is non-navigable at times of low
water, which are also not easily predictable.

10. In one region of a planet, High humidity and an insidious
life-form make long-term storage of food very difficult, even
with good food preservation technology.

11. Two important cities situated on the same river have been
gradually expanding their irrigation networks. The downstream
city claims the upstream city is taking more than its fair share
of water and is polluting it.  The smaller upstream city claims
the downstream city is merely trying to bully it. Tensions
between the two cities are escalating.

12. In detailing a planet, useful data are:  its principal export
or exports; marketworlds for the product; principal imports; and
its principal export.  It's easier to determine these from the
trade class and TL than it is to figure how much of what is
traded.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #216
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 217



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: World Hooks
More Ditzie, including a new CPAW
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Jump training
OT: Crusade abandoned
Colour of Scout ships
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports
Re: batten down the hatches...
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: batten down the hatches...
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)
Mouth Noises
the Name Rose
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: How do Free Traders take off?
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>In general, Go for it!  But an unusual culture is not in and of
>itself enough; there has to be reasons for the culture to be the
>way it is, and it has to affect the party in some way.

I'm just throwing off ideas. If you like them, I'm sure you can figure
out how they "work" in your TU and how they affect your adventurer's
parties. I don't expect any of these to appeal to everyone or all of 
them to appeal to anyone.
 
>you've posted here is more "background" than "hooks" - but if
>you can post ideas for _using_ these worlds, you could provoke
>some interesting discussion.

It's a long, long way from a bare UWP to an interesting adventure.  
What makes one C543578-A world (for instance) different from another, 
or even a region of some other world with a similar UWP? Why should
Travellers ever go there, and what might happen if they did? I'm not trying
to supply the whole answer, just a variety of ways to start looking for
one.

These also might be called "background seeds", since they are 
embryonic and need some development. I'm limiting them to a paragraph 
or so, and they aren't all created equal. Some need more development 
or more ideas combined with them before they can inspire actual adventures
than others do. I prefer to leave this to the individual 
GM's creativity. The more work I do on any one of them, the less 
useful and more limiting they are likely to be. I figure a collection 
of such seeds ought to be at least as useful to a GM as a list of 
rumors or patrons or random encounters or equipment. I could use 
other sources besides history, but since I've just begun and 
I think I can average at least two or three ideas per page of 
history book, I'll stick with history as my inspiration for now.

Some additional thoughts on the first few:

#1. An institutions wants someone to covertly explore and map
a site claimed by a rival. Only generic mapping skills are
needed: No specialist archaeological knowledge and no digging is
required or even permitted (unless the party happens to include 
someone with archaeology-2 or better). The site may or may not be 
guarded to forestall this possibility. If not, there is a good 
chance that activity at the site will be observed and reported 
to the other claimants.  Or, two different groups claim a site, 
and one needs help in enforcing its exclusive right to dig and 
needs enforcers. Or, there is an illegal but lucrative "pot-hunting"
operation which the PTB want traced and shut down without destroying 
the source. Or the PCs might BE the pothunters, in need of some cash. 
Add environmental  difficulties to taste.

#2. A previously unknown site is rumored to exist (some native
has found it). A university or AAB or government wishes these
rumors investigated, and may send a representative along. Or, the 
TAS or someone wants to publish or update an old tourist guide to
archaeological sites of interest. Add difficulties along the way.

#3. The TL might maintained by the starport city-dwellers, who
trade equipment for food.

#4. Supply your own reason for going outside the safe, comfortable starport
out into the wilds: or find some reason your party got 
stuck out there and needs to get to "civilization".

#5. Since the development of the printing press, Western
civilization has depended heavily on paper. Difficulty finding
appropriate media and religious belief that written word is
sacred might contribute to prejudice against writing.

#6. Just something to think about. You need unusual cultures for 
the same reasons you need Aslan and Hivers.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:14:59 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: More Ditzie, including a new CPAW

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #213
>
>Has anyone from the band Disaster Area approached you about upsizing
>your stereo?

Weeeee havent been approachie-wochied, but there are some mennie mennie men
men weariiiing lots of blackie-wackie talking to Acouuuuuuuuunting-ting-ting.

Weeeeeee thing they're plotting somefing.

Cousin Ditzie

PS Weeeeve built a new PAW. It's a smallie-wallie atmospheric PAWsie-wasie,
an an an weeeee reckon you could retrofit it into most tankie-wankies. It's
built to techie-weckie teeeennnnnn standards, so you can buildie-wildie it
in the boooooooondocks.

It's it's it's a twooooo meter circular-wircular PAWsie wasie, an an an it
has a lap energy-wenergy of fouuurrrr megajoules.

It it is maintains beeeeammmmm intergrity-wegrity for sixty-four
kilometer-wometers in a standard-wandered atmosphere, an an an it can be
fired every two an a bit seconds. It's beam pointer-wointer goes for fifty
kiloooometers, so you wouldnt wanna try an an an hit the broad side of
Accounting outside that.

Its its its got fweeeeeeee modes - one lap, fouuurrrr laps an an an
siiiiixteeeen laps. It goes through one cennimeter of crystaliron with one
lap, twoooo cennimeters of crystaliron with fouuuuur laps an an an fouuuuur
cennimeters of crystaliiiiiiron with siiiiixteeen laps.

It's got two two twoooooo battery-wattteries ... one tactical battery that
puts out twenny megajoules per second-wekond for thirty-six seconds, an an
an one driiiiiip feed battery that puts out eight hunnerd kilowatts for an
hoooouuuurr.

You can can can fire eighteen one lap shots, or four four lap shots or one
siiiixteen lap shots until you neeeeeed to refill the tactical-wactical
battery-wattery.

Weeeeee think it's a pretty neatie-weatie gunnie-wunnie, an an an you dont
hafta have a biggie-wiggie fusie-wusie plant to runnnnn it.

****************************************************************************
***********

Light Rapid Fire Charged Particle Accelerator Weapon - TL10

31 cm radius, 25 cm diameter ROF 24/60s Circular PAW (vol 0.22 m3, 0.22t,
KCr 20)

40 MJ Accumulators ; 3.2 m3, 6.4t, KCr 32 <suitable for 4 MJ/lap>

50 km Beam Pointer ; 0.3m3, 0.3t, KCr 30

20 MWx36s battery ; 1 m3, 2t, KCr 3

0.8 MWx3600s battery ; 1m3, 2t, KCr 3

Crew : 1 - crewstation not included.

Theoretical range = 640 km - remember to apply atmospheric mods

Fire control range = 50 km

DV = 14 @ 1 lap, 28 @ 4 lap and 56 @ 16 laps

Total : 5.8 m3, 11t, KCr 88

Tactical battery has 18 lap/shots in it, and can output one lap/shot every
2 seconds (so it takes 32 seconds to charge the PAW for a full-whammy shot).

Takes 900 seconds for the drip battery to completely refill the tactical
battery (50 seconds per lap/shot).

Needless to say, you could use the vehicle's main power plant to refill
either battery.

Despite Ditzie being dead keen on the weapon, it's really a solution
looking for a problem. I suppose you could use it as a long-range
anti-missile system in a aerosol-heavy battleground, or as a long-range
sniping tool. I dont think it has enough punch to penetrate armour on even
a TL8 battlefield.

It'd do a great job on aircraft though.

You could also sell it to lo-tech planets as an anti-ICBM system, although
I have heard nasty rumours about what happens when you hit a fission
warhead with a CPAW.

End users may also retrofit a bigger tactical battery on it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:37:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

WHAT?!  You're used bookstore has a copy?!
For sale?!
To the general public?!

And you didn't send a red alert to the TML?!

I'm shocked.  Shocked, I say!

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/27/99 7:18:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
> writes:
>
> << Could somebody send me the Book 4 stats?  I need the hard numbers from the
>  Ironmongrey chapter.  My copy seems to have gone AWOL?
>   >>
>
> Doug; I think my used bookstore has a copy. Let me know if you need it...

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:39:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Oh, yass.. my craizer roomate and I whatch it all the time to see how far
>we Americans have fallen in the art of the insult.  We also enjoy yelling
>at the screen demanding a return to absolute monarchy.

LOL!

For a serious debate the House of Lords is actually better, but you loose
all the fun of ideologically blinded debate so essential to the Commons.
Except when they debate fox hunting or the Torys reel out the hundreds of
old duffer hereditory Lords who aren't sure what century it is.

But that will go as the law is going through to remove all but 72 of them..

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:40:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Quarterly hate-fest?

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>>Well, not being a TML great old one* (Doug B,
><snip>
>I feel a new .sig coming on...

I'm waiting with anticipation ...

I know I can Ryleh on you.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:52:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jump training

 "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote:

>I think back to WWII and the assault tactics used throughout the campaign.
>The real Airborne attacks were done by the Armies including glider insertion
>in Europe.  The Marines tended to "Take the beach" in the Pacific campaign
>and not do air insertion.  Almost all Jumps in the Pacific were for
>espionage purposes.  I can't remember how this was done in the Faulklands,
>anybody????

The attacks in the Falklands: both the Royal Marines and the Parachute
Regiment deployed by sea IIRC. There was a mix of assault ships (HMS
Fearless/Intrepid), Through Deck ASW Cruisers <grin> (HMS Invincible, HMS
Hermes), Merchants (Ro-ros and liners like the Canberra) and Fleet
Auxilaries (HMS Tristan, Sir Galahad etc). ISTR the SBS deployed by
helicopter behind enemy lines (not sure about the SAS) and that some raids
(Pebble Island?) were conducted using small boats. I don't recall any
parachute assaults, but remember I was 11 at the time ;-)

Now, I could dig out the 'South Atlanic War' reference for Harpoon, and
also Brian Hanrahans' book 'I counted them all out, and I counted them all
back' which is a compilation of personal and BBC-TV/Radio reports. Depends
how much you want the info.

There were some other people on the list who are ex-UK services (and
current) who can probably give you some info.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:49:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT: Crusade abandoned

Hi all,

Sorry to waste the bandwidth, but I wanted to ask if anyone had seen
this/knew about it? Is it old news?

Dom


- --------
CRUSADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI

Well, we took our best shot. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

The SciFi Channel programming guys wanted the show; they wanted it a lot.
They crunched numbers for almost two weeks trying to make
it work. But at the end of the day, the problem was that they had already
allocated or spent their budget for the year, and couldn't come up
with the huge chunk of change necessary to get an entire season. Had this
come up prior to January 1st, things would almost certainly have
gone differently. But they have their budget, as we have ours, and it was
already allocated.

So TNT will now air the full 13 produced, and that's the end of it for now.
I say for now because WB has told us to fold and hold all the
sets, rather than scrap them, because they believe strongly in the show,
and feel that when the ratings come in we may well be able to pick up
a second season. We'll see.

Meanwhile, I'm taking the day off, and deciding which of a number of offers
from networks and studios, sitting on my desk since B5
finished, to pick up. I had declined to go that route so I could do Crusade
and keep playing in this universe, but absent that, there's no reason
not to go back to the networks and apply there some of what we've been able
to do in B5 and Crusade.

My thanks to all those who wrote, and called, and emailed, and lent their
support to the process. And I think that when you see the show,
you'll be quite pleased by what we did. We're all very proud of it.

jms

source http://www.thestation.com

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:00:33 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Colour of Scout ships

Jesse,

The Type S scout on the front of the MT Referee's companion is orange.

The EDSS Lintula Sunrise was (in it's original BITS cover) metal coloured.

The Imperial encylopedia has official sunburst colours  as follows:

Source MT Imperial Encyclopedia Portions (c) 1977 to 1999 FarFuture Enterprises
- -----------
Imperial Sunburst: The symbol of the Third Imperium established by Cleon
(the first emperor) when the empire was  proclaimed. Images show him
standing before the original banner with a goldon yellow sunburst against a
black background, representing Capital's type G star against dark space.

In 247, the Eliyoh (a non-human minor race) joined the Imperium. To that
race the symbology was unimpressive. The  Eliyoh vision centered in the far
infra-red, which resulted in distinction between the official colors of
black and yellow being impossible. So the Empress Porfiria declared that
the symbol would have no official colour.  The original banner in the
Imperial throne room is still black with a yellow sunburst. The Imperial
lnterstellar Scout Service uses a red sunburst; the Imperial Navy, yellow;
the Imperial Army, black; the Imperial Marines, maroon.
- -----------------

So Orange or red sounds good, but I see no reason why your tan colour
shouldn't be viable - it looks cool as wall paper. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:59:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> > For national spaceports, I went on current GNP alone.  It's tough
> > enough doing that, I didn't even want to go near political climates
> > or spending plans.
> 
> I sort of suspected as much.  IMHO, GNP alone isn't really a good
> criteria.  It doesn't take into account many important economic
> effects that will impact the ability to build and maintain a functioning
> starport.
> 
> > For national spaceport locations, I picked fairly prominent cities more or
> > less at random.  

<<snip>>
> 
Another factor that should influence what Terran cities of the early
21st century would be considered spaceports is the presence or absence
of aerospace industry facilities (the early shipyards).  Thus, St.
Louis, with the former McDonnell-Douglas main plant, would be a more
logical spaceport than Buffalo.  (Admittedly, I say this as a native St.
Louisan, but I don't think that my bias affects the basic logic of this
premise.)

<<snip>>
> 
> But facilities like Houston are still, IMO, going to be he focus of port
> development.  I think they're close to B, a TL-8 B. The defining characteristic
> to me being that they build spaceworthy ships there.  Though not strictly
> a part of the starport criteria, the proximity of the Houston and Texas
> facilities to very large populations, prominent sea and air ports, makes
> it much more likely for them to be the focus of US spaceport development.
> After that, Mid Atlantic (between Boston and DC) and California would be
> priorities.
> 
My first Texas site for a shipyard would be Dallas/Fort Worth (what used
to be the General Dynamics plant).  Other logical sites (off the top of
my head) would be Long Beach, CA (the ex-Douglas plant); Seattle, WA
(Boeing); and St. Louis, MO (the previously-mentioned Mac Air plant). 

Of course, if you believe that early starship construction will be
viewed as analogous to seagoing ship construction, then New Orleans, LA
(the Avondale shipyard); Groton, CT (Electric Boat); and, of course,
Newport News, VA (the shipyard where NIMITZes are born) become logical
US sites (among others).

> --
> Bloo
> Resounding Technology
> Creators of RogerWilco
> http://www.resounding.com/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:04:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...

>Considering that the closest to war you'll probably ever be is watching
>the "History Channel", you should thank God (or whoever) that there are
>those rare men like Gunney Hathcock that have the courage and conviction
>to take on a morally repugnent task, which lesser men would refuse to
>touch, a task which gives the professionals themselves no joy, and
performed
>that odious duty to the best of their ability.

Oh, come off it!  Jack Nicholson you're not!

>  Hathcock *NEVER* bragged
>about his career in 'Nam and, when put up for the Silver Star (for rescuing
>the seven Marines from the burning AmphiTrack that almost killed him),
>refused the award *THREE* times in a row.  He always maintained that
>what he did for his country was "nothing special".

Probably because he knew he was "an errand boy for grocery clerks".
>
>The quiet bravery demonstrated by Hathcock and his peers is a testimonial
>that rare men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before
>personal moral comfort.  We can all learn from such men.

Yeah, not to be like them.  This country would not have stood or fallen
based on what Hathcock did over there.
>
>The next time you feel like slandering the honored dead, try looking
>at the bigger picture before mouthing off. :^(
>
>        - Mark C.
>          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>          Front Sight First Family member #1


Gee, that's not a biased opinion!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:12:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

You don't mean that it can catch up to me in jump space, right?  It'll have
to run into me when I'm out of jump, correct?

- --Clif


>You forgot the end equation (so did I for that matter :)
>
>IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
>AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>= OUCH!!!!!
>
>And since it's a frontier cruiser Clif, it's got the legs to jump after you
>and catch up if you're in a slow jump ship.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>>>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>>
>>IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.
>>AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
>>
>>Dom
>>
>>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:19:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...

Sorry, slip of the enter key...  I realize that I don't have the license
that the rest of you have to answer this sort of post.

- --Clif

>Oh, come off it!  Jack Nicholson you're not!
>

>Gee, that's not a biased opinion!
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:20:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

Did you find it?  What's the URL of the page?

>You sir, are a steely eyed jump point operator!  Thanks!  Though I still
have
>to slip into the ol' battle dress and take the PGMP-13 out to the garage
and
>find my stuff!!
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:30:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: This Latest Attack  On Clif (was IISS and AHL)

>(OB Trav: What if Tom Clancy wrote Traveller novels?  He'd use his LBB's
>research how his Marine pukes would use their ACRs to yaddayaddayadda...
>And I don't want to hear about what the yiddish language thinks of
yadah-ing
>in this case, either!  Think of the Traveller Morals Clause!)
>

Excuse me, Ross, but my comments about "yada" (Hebrew, not Yiddish) were
etymological in nature, not moral in discussion.  And since when is the
character "Elaine Benes" from "Seinfeld" considered preachy?  If it weren't
for her, you probably wouldn't be using that expression, and SHE used it in
the context of sex.

- --Clif
>
>Me again,
>Ross Coburn
>ross@ican.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:36:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Mouth Noises

>As for the liftoff question, I really want to know what kind of noises to
make
>with my mouth when the time comes.  Is it like Whhhhhhshhhheeeew?  Or more
>like Khwhrrrrrmmm?
>  --S


You're one delightfully daffy poster.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:38:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: the Name Rose

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

I hope this was tongue-in-cheek, because I believe Shoshannah (Suzannah)
means "Lily".  Naming females after flowers is nothing new.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:40:34 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

I agree with everything except the TL issue.

> The army, on the other hand, is made of troops drawn from the defense
> forces of all the Imperium's worlds.  These troops are equipped to TL-14/15
> standards and are available for off-world operations.  The army is *huge*;
> where there might be 10,000 Marines in a subsector, there could be millions
> of army troops.  

It would be immenly difficult to equip the entire Imperial Army at TL-14/15
due to the relative rarity of planets with that TL and the massive numbers of
troops that would probably be at those TLs, too.  TL 14 and 15 worlds will be
able to produce full defense forces at that TL, but how is a TL12 planet going
to?  That TL-12 planet will probably produce TL-12 stuff and donate that to
the Imperial cause.  Look at Invasion Earth, for example.  There are a good
number of TL14 (15 just recently attained at that time) units with a fair
amount of TL 12 and 13 units.  The Solomani Confederation were similar.  I
don't think the Imperium would be in the habit of using units of TL lower than
12, but would in times of necessity.  

The Imperial Marines, being smaller, would be far far easier to equip at the
maximum common TL (15 by 1116).

Everything else, I think we're in total agreement on.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:41:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: How do Free Traders take off?

>They used this isea in a movie once, I seem to recall. But anyway... that's
>how Free Traders take off.

Except that that was a Heavily-Indebted Trader, not a Free Trader.  : )

- --Clif
>
>MJD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:42:25 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

> May I make a suggestion?
> 
> Write up some adventures, and submit them to Pyramid. Something about the
> scale of an Amber Zone would be ideal. If you need help with GURPS stats
> for NPCs and stuff (I know I would), there's piles of people here who
> would help. 

I dont' want stand alone adventures necessarily. What I want is for the
mysteries of GT hinted to in G:T and the G:T web page to be more than a lure.
I can write adventures for my group most competantly.  I want to enjoy
consuming what's been told to be an "official" mystery...

Would the setting of the New Era be acceptable?  I'm not sure, but I don't
seem to think so... I'm just not interested in the other settings, except as
background and I already have loads of that.  Even the Regency is sometimes
kinda boring to me (though there's a whole lot of possibilities there).


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #217
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 27 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 218



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Milieu E21 On-line
Re: the Name Rose
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #217
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
New Ship Design on Website
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: color of scout ships
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: How do Free Traders take off?
Another New Ship Design Posted
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Aristocrats (was: Pyramid)
Re: Jump training
Re: batten down the hatches...
GT : Aslan Trader
Error in posted GT Thruster modules
Re: Lifting off
Re: Lifting off

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:53:11 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Correct.  The AHL's are 2g Jump5, 60,000 ton ships.
Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev


>You don't mean that it can catch up to me in jump space, right?  It'll have
>to run into me when I'm out of jump, correct?
>
>--Clif
>
>
>>You forgot the end equation (so did I for that matter :)
>>
>>IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
>>AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>= OUCH!!!!!
>>
>>And since it's a frontier cruiser Clif, it's got the legs to jump after
you
>>and catch up if you're in a slow jump ship.
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Acronyms you can't translate can't hurt you, right?
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>>>and then the the ref will sic a IISS AHL at you...
>>>
>>>IISS = Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.
>>>AHL = Azhanti High Lightning Class Cruiser
>>>
>>>Dom
>>>
>>>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>>>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>>>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>>>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>>>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>>>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:14:16 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21 On-line

Well then, I have put my Milieu E21 draft on line for your perusal at:

www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Adventure/E21/MilieuE21.html

...tables, timelines, adventure synopses, pictures, hokey graphics and all.
Turn off graphics if you just want to see the text... I think there's over
300k in images, while the text is only 50k.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:17:33 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: the Name Rose

From:           	"Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Date sent:      	Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:38:57 -0500

>I hope this was tongue-in-cheek, because I believe Shoshannah (Suzannah)
>means "Lily".  Naming females after flowers is nothing new.

Yes its tongue in cheek (and my daughter's name, like Karl is my son's).
For those who are interested here are some of the others I've come up with

Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 1: ANDREW
From the old Scotish meaning "with enormous nose". Often used by
royalty. Can be found in the old proverb "Show me a nose like the
prow of the Mary Rose and I'll show you a royal Andrew".
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 2: PHOBE
Previously this name was indicative of parents with a classical
education, in present times it is indicative of parents with more
money than sense.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 3: CATHERINE
Do not be fooled. Banned on the continent until 1830, then only
permitted for women over 6 feet tall with the proviso that they
report to the police weekly.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 4: BRUCE
Many civilisation have wreastled with the Bruce problem, the
Australian live crocodile wrangler Bruce is vastly different from
the Californian hair stylist Bruce. This may never be resolved.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 6: CEDRIC
No don't do it. Have you no mercy.
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 7: KARL
More Teutonic than the English Charles, Karls can often be found
advising US Presidents on the underutilisation of nuclear weapons
*****************************************************************

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 8: AMANDA
Born to parents with an income greater than the national debt of
Belgium. Favourite colour is Horse. Doomed to marry Nigels who do
'something in the City' and an early death due to alcholism.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:24:22 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #217

>>(OB Trav: What if Tom Clancy wrote Traveller novels?  He'd use his LBB's
>>research how his Marine pukes would use their ACRs to yaddayaddayadda...
>>And I don't want to hear about what the yiddish language thinks of
>yadah-ing
>>in this case, either!  Think of the Traveller Morals Clause!)
>>
>
>Excuse me, Ross, but my comments about "yada" (Hebrew, not Yiddish) were
>etymological in nature, not moral in discussion.  And since when is the
>character "Elaine Benes" from "Seinfeld" considered preachy?  If it weren't
>for her, you probably wouldn't be using that expression, and SHE used it in
>the context of sex.
>
>- --Clif

Actually, that expression has been going around Montreal for at *least* 28
years, prolly longer.  Might make sense though - we have a pretty high
Hebrew (Hebrew, Yiddish... I don't speak either of them, so it could have
been Swahili to me.  Of course, that crack'll get me in trouble with either
my Hebrew-enabled player (Melissa) or my Swahili-enabled fiancee (Tamu), so
I'm batting 1.000 right now).

Not that that means I knew what it meant or anything....

OB Traveller:  I haven't the faintest idea, but I couldn't resist.  I'll go
do some more writeups soon in penance.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:51:10 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I agree with everything except the TL issue.
> 
> > The army, on the other hand, is made of troops drawn from the defense
> > forces of all the Imperium's worlds.  These troops are equipped to TL-14/15
> > standards and are available for off-world operations.  The army is *huge*;
> > where there might be 10,000 Marines in a subsector, there could be millions
> > of army troops.
> 
> It would be immenly difficult to equip the entire Imperial Army at TL-14/15
> due to the relative rarity of planets with that TL and the massive numbers of
> troops that would probably be at those TLs, too.  TL 14 and 15 worlds will be
> able to produce full defense forces at that TL, but how is a TL12 planet going
> to?  That TL-12 planet will probably produce TL-12 stuff and donate that to
> the Imperial cause.  Look at Invasion Earth, for example.  There are a good
> number of TL14 (15 just recently attained at that time) units with a fair
> amount of TL 12 and 13 units.  The Solomani Confederation were similar.  I
> don't think the Imperium would be in the habit of using units of TL lower than
> 12, but would in times of necessity.
> 
Looking at Fifth Frontier War, the Regular Imperial Army forces are all
TL14/TL15.  The colonial forces range from TL8 to TL15.  Two of the
three Army jump troop regiments are TL14; the third is TL15.

OTOH, in my ref's TU, most forces in the Spinward Marches (circa 1100)
are TL12, in order to maximize local logistical support.  (In 1100, I'm
arguing with my ref that my jump troop regiment, the 1199th [not in FFW]
should be upgraded from TL12 to TL14 or TL15.)

> The Imperial Marines, being smaller, would be far far easier to equip at the
> maximum common TL (15 by 1116).

Makes sense.
> 
> Everything else, I think we're in total agreement on.
> 
> Gary

I plan to follow up with a summary of the jump troop discussion
(probably tomorrow).  It should be mostly acceptable to those of us
interested in such things.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:04:40 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: New Ship Design on Website

The most recent version of the AuricTech ST. LOUIS-class Imperial Light
Cruiser is now available on my Web site.  The ST. LOUIS-class is a
60,000 dton, J4, 4G design, constructed at TL13.  My site has both an
RTF descriptive sheet and the Akins Excel 5.0 spreadsheet (version 3.2,
with mods).



- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:25:46 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

There is an emergency site on Easter Island I think.
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports


>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>
>
>>
>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>
>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
>that.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:18:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

At 02:41 PM 2/27/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Here's another question for the TML'ers out there for "First In".  Is there
>a canon COLOR listed for Scout ships?

I wouldn't think so.. most Scouts use chameleon skins, so they could be any
color.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:32:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

At 07:40 PM 2/27/99 EST, you wrote:

>> The army, on the other hand, is made of troops drawn from the defense
>> forces of all the Imperium's worlds.  These troops are equipped to >> 
>> TL-14/15 standards and are available for off-world operations.  The army 
>>is *huge*; where there might be 10,000 Marines in a subsector, there could 
>>be millions of army troops.  
>
>It would be immenly difficult to equip the entire Imperial Army at TL-14/15
>due to the relative rarity of planets with that TL and the massive numbers
>of troops that would probably be at those TLs, too.  TL 14 and 15 worlds
>will be able to produce full defense forces at that TL, but how is a TL12
>planet going to?

That what the member worlds pay taxes for, the material investment.  Only
about 10% of a subsector's defense forces will be "Imperial Army."  Those
select units will recieve equipment and training that brings them to the
Imperial standard.  The rest of the world's Army while be at the local TL.

There are two areas where this breaks down:  Low population worlds, and
worlds with very low (pre-spaceflight) TLs.  The solution in these cases is
to induct individual recruits and train them on a world that has an
Imperial unit.

I envision a Regimental system, where you enlist in the Regiment for your
entire career.  For example, Private Smaltz will be a member of the 45th
Carlie Hill Rifles for his entire term.  Thirty years later, Regimental
Sergeant-Major Smaltz will still be with the 45th, unless he chooses to
request transfer.  

Since slots are few at the higher levels, many officers and senior NCOs
will go back to the regular planetary army.  This is a boon for the planet,
as these officers bring experience with both high tech equipment and other
cultures.  (One oddity of this system is it encourages the "orphans" from
other worlds to remain in place until a slot opens up.  This results in
many units having Regimental Sergeant Majors from dirtball backwaters.

yes, all this stuff is in my GT IA proposal.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:37:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Quarterly hate-fest?

At 08:40 PM 2/27/99 +0000, Dom wrote:

>I'm waiting with anticipation ...
>
>I know I can Ryleh on you.

Ouch.

Here it is:
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:44:27 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

In response to your statement concerning the prohibitive cost of equiping the
entire Imperial Army to tech 14-15 standards you are completely correct.  In
my prior post, I  only considered the "regular" units in the Imperial force
pool.  Those regulars are almost uniformly equipped at tech 14-15, and
notably, the ONLY Army Jump regiments present are regulars.  On the other
hand, there are a whole lot of "colonial" units contained in the Imperial
forces, ranging from tech 8 through 15, with the average appearing to be
around tech 12. Significantly for our discussion, there are NO colonial Jump
units present.  We can assume that these represent the best equipped of the
colonial forces.  In addition to them, virtually every world on the map has
intrinsic army forces, at local tech level, ranging from one battalion up to
over a thousand.  So you are right, the vast majority of Imperial forces are
equipped at less expensive, lower tech levels capable of being supported by
local resources.  However, when an interstellar was breaks out, it appears
that the high command chooses to leave the lower tech forces back to defend
their homeworld, and selects the best of the colonials to bolster the Imperial
regulars.
I'm still of the opinion that given their unique qualities, Jump troops would
be deployed independantly, and not attached to larger formations under most
circumstances.  Of course, I'm just speculating based on the info that I have.
If a ref want to say that there are scads of Army Jump troopers in independant
companies or battalions in his universe, who can really say no.  Hope this
helps the discussion.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:49:53 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: How do Free Traders take off?

At 07:41 PM 27/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>They used this isea in a movie once, I seem to recall. But anyway... that's
>>how Free Traders take off.
>
>Except that that was a Heavily-Indebted Trader, not a Free Trader.  : )
>
>--Clif

        <laugh>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:06:52 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Another New Ship Design Posted

The most recent version of the AuricTech BROOKLYN-class Imperial Light
Cruiser is now available on my Web site.  The BROOKLYN-class is a
60,000 dton, J4, 4G design, constructed at TL13.  My site has both an
RTF descriptive sheet and the Akins Excel 5.0 spreadsheet (version 3.2,
with mods).

The BROOKLYN-class is a near-twin of the ST. LOUIS-class, with the only
major change being the substitution of a spinal meson gun for the NPAW
carried by ST. LOUIS.

(BTW, in my ref's TU, HIMS BROOKLYN was the first O-6 level command for
Captain [later Vice Admiral] Elphinstone, circa 1099.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:11:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

At 09:44 PM 2/27/99 EST, you wrote:
>In response to your statement concerning the prohibitive cost of equiping the
>entire Imperial Army to tech 14-15 standards you are completely correct.  In
>my prior post, I  only considered the "regular" units in the Imperial force
>pool.  Those regulars are almost uniformly equipped at tech 14-15, and
>notably, the ONLY Army Jump regiments present are regulars.

<snip>

What is the mission of the Imperial Army?  It is to defend the worlds of
the Imperium.  The Army can afford to carry armored divisions (and corps,
and field armies) because it doesn't have an aggressive operational tempo
like the Marines.

The Marines use Battle Dress and fusion weapons.  That amounts to a fair
chunk of change just to equip each trooper.  They also have the Navy on
their side.. they don't really need to carry heavy artillery and armor as
organic parts, since 90% of the time they'll have direct line to ortillery.

In the Spinward Marches there are four TL15 industrial worlds: Rhylanor,
Mora, Trin and Glisten.  I can easily see these worlds producing enough
equipment to equip the Imperial Army units in the Spinward Marches.

<snip>

>I'm still of the opinion that given their unique qualities, Jump troops
>would be deployed independantly, and not attached to larger formations under 
>most circumstances.  Of course, I'm just speculating based on the info that 
>I have.

The problem is that "Airborne" troops, even those from space, have to be
supported quickly.  Now matter how good you are, troops will be scattered,
you'll lose a certain percentage to injury on landing, and nothing ever
works right.

This is the main wartime mission for Marines.  They blast a landing zone to
allow the big Army shuttles to bring down the "grinding force" of Army
troops and equipment to do the rest of the fighting.  This frees the fleet
up to continue the offensive.

- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:38:17 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Aristocrats (was: Pyramid)

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	Hey, fellow aristocrat!   One of my maternal ancestors was an Austro-
>Hungarian count who owned a rope factory (although I am decended from the
>black-sheep son who came to America and became a baker).   Oh, and an
>ancient
>great-aunt of my father claims we are related to the Danish royal house by
>marriage.  What a blue-blooded list!

While I can't trace my family tree back _that_ far, I nevertheless still
proudly believe that I, too, had ancestors.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:43:48 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Jump training

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
>The attacks in the Falklands: both the Royal Marines and the Parachute
>Regiment deployed by sea IIRC.
  [snip]
> some raids
>(Pebble Island?) were conducted using small boats.

Kayaks were used. My uncle lost the new kayaks his team had purchased -
requisitioned for the SAS or Marines. He used to joke about getting 'his'
kayak back with a 'kill count'. 

(Actually, what happened was the supplier redirected the shipment, so
David had to wait for a while. At least, that's the story I heard from my
family.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:24:32 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...

- ----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...


>
>>  Hathcock *NEVER* bragged
>
>Probably because he knew he was "an errand boy for grocery clerks".
>>
>> We can all learn from such men.
>
>Yeah, not to be like them.  This country would not have stood or fallen
>based on what Hathcock did over there.
>
>--Clif
>
Clif you have said a lot of things on this list that I kept quiet on and let
the fur fly as it might.  You have now over stepped the bounds even I will
accept.  I AM a Vietnam vet and take serious exception to you, your comments
and your attitude.  Either you SHUTUP or I will personally start a petition
to have you expelled from the list.
Enough of your childish, simpering and uncalled for remarks.  This is the
only time I'll respond to your posts on this list, now grow up!
Thom Harris
Chief Warrant Officer (Ret.)
U.S Army

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:14:07 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Aslan Trader

Here's the Aslan trader referred to in Alien Module 1:


400ton Eakhau class Aslan Trader, Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation/Commo/Sensor, 1 x Engineering,
 1 x Steward, 1 x Purser
 Total Crew = 5

Specifications:
 400ton Good Streamlined Hull, Normal Compartmentalisation,
 Sealed, Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull
 Materials, Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD 4, +9 size mod,
 64.097 MCr, 30780 HP, 1 Unhardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering,
 1 Utility, 23 Maneuver, 12 Powered Jump, 80 Jump Fuel (40 for
 Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to process), 13 Staterooms (5
 Crew, 8 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 4 Low Berth (16
 capacity, 16 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 153.5 Cargo, 4 turrets

Performance:
 Jump 2, EMass 437.92 tons, LMass 1205.42 tons, EMass 333.92 tons
 (less fuel), LMass 1101.42 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 1559 mph
 (2508 km/h), Acceleration - 2.93G Empty, 1.06G Loaded, 3.84G
 Empty (less Fuel), 1.16G Loaded (less Fuel)

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:18:51 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Error in posted GT Thruster modules

I've discovered a BIG error in my worksheets for vectored AND unvectored
thrusters I posted; I used the weight of the _thrust_ to calc the cost
rather than the weight of the _thruster_ itself...oops

I will post corrected stats for reactionless thruster modules ASAP.
Sorry if this inconvenienced anybody...

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:36:01 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

At 07:03 AM 27/02/99, you wrote:
>OK, a related question:
>
>In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
>atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
>drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
>
>Assume that Our Heroes have a ship with 1g thrusters, 1g CG, on a 1g world.
> Would the CG neutalize the local gravity completely, allowing the ship to
>thrust as if were already in micro-g?  What if the world was 1.5g?
>--

        Hi, Doug!  1G of contra-grav means that the ship behaves as though
in a micro-grav environment.  Add a 1G thrust, and she can counter act 2G's
of gravity well.  Or that is how I do it, otherwise no one in thier right
mind build a free trader with less than 2G's.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:36:01 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

At 01:54 AM 27/02/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>         Thanks!  The best thing about this approach (or should that be
>> departure?) is that it nixes the requirement for tail-sitter ships.  If you
>> can contra-grav an entire freighter, by implication you ought to be able to
>> build internal compensators as well.  After all, this is an sf game...
>> Somethings have got to be doable by advanced technology or what's the point?
>
>Only thing is, it'll be *cheaper* to operate the tail-sitter. Because
>it doesn't need contragrav as long, and it doesn't need as must g-comp.
>

        Hi, Leonard!
        I'm a CT/HG sorta fella....  I don't pay for g-comp...  =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #218
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 219



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Missing Persons (Sort Of)
One More Ship:  A Platoon Drop Transport
re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
re: Jump Training
re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203
Re: Pyramid
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: batten down the hatches...
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
OT: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: batten down... & Moral Umbrage
Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage
Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Natliatl
Re: color of scout ships
Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:38:50 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Missing Persons (Sort Of)

        Could Thomas Vickers please contact me off the list?  I just tried
to e-mail you the next PBEM turn and it bounced.  I just want to verify your
e-mail address.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:37:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: One More Ship:  A Platoon Drop Transport

One more AuricTech design for the night:  the REUBEN TUCKER-class
Platoon Transport.  800 dtons, J4, 3.5G.  You can find it on my Web site
(check my .sig file).

Let me know what y'all think of these ships.

(BTW, AuricTech Shipyards is named for the "gold-plated" designs I turn
out.  Such as my 93 MCr version of the Type S scout....)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:02:54 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

StevenA201 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Um, you're missing near-C pirates, and fighting jump torpedoes...


Not trolling!  Not not not!  I just wasn't around when this stuff came up, and
it's important background for MTU.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's nothing...you also missed the discussion on lesbian Aslan. <weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:12:12 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
> StevenA201 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Um, you're missing near-C pirates, and fighting jump torpedoes...
> 
> Not trolling!  Not not not!  I just wasn't around when this stuff came up, and
> it's important background for MTU.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> That's nothing...you also missed the discussion on lesbian Aslan. <weg>
> 
Along with the cannibal Vilani ;-)  "Uncle Eneri was a man of good
taste...."

Admittedly, the Hallowe'en discussion on cannibal Vilani was
entertaining, but that was probably because most of us played it for
effect.  From what I've heard, the original discussion was a bit more
heated.


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:23:05 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jump Training

Dave Nelson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I imagine that jumping from orbit must have an order of
magnitude greater need for  extensive training and also an order of magnitude
difference (or more) in cost of equipment and training.   You can re-pack
parachutes, and while chute 1 is being repacked, you can make more training
jumps in the same day, at little consumable cost.  A jump capsule, however is
expensive and is used up in a training jump.  The need to make those jumps is
greater because there is even more things to go wrong in an orbital drop than
a plane drop, and It doesn't seem prudent to make a marine's first real drop
being a drop into a hot LZ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One point: I'll bet that for 90+% of a meteoric assault, the drop marine's
responsibility consists of lying still and not soiling his battledress.
I'll even venture a guess that once the drop pod splits open, probably
at some altitude (a la _Starship Troopers_), the skills needed are those
that can be taught with parachute drops and/or grav belt training.

"Second Squad, g-belt to angels 10 and commence terminal velocity
dispersal and pull-out drill, MARK!!" -- and your squad can do this all
day long.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:29:02 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Jesse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You don't mean that it can catch up to me in jump space, right?  It'll have
>to run into me when I'm out of jump, correct?
>
>--Clif


Correct.  The AHL's are 2g Jump5, 60,000 ton ships.
Jesse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course, it has two hangar decks, a boat deck and a couple of launch 
tubes. Did it keep any of those Navy-issue 6G Fighters on board?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:07:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)

In a message dated 2/27/99 1:56:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:

<< My approach would have been to simply tell players/GMs that if
 they want a ships to take off of a world with more than 1G,
 they should give it more than 1G of thrust.  (Otherwise,
 you park in orbit and take a shuttle, secondary vehicle,
 etc. down to the surface.  Presumably merchant ships would
 be designed with something like 1.5 G of accleration so that
 they can land on most worlds.
  >>

This screws the fat merchant which is 1G and it's RO-RO cargo deck (ala a C-5
Galaxy) screams low tech world cargo loading/unloading, which from what I
understand tend to be on roughly .8-1.2G worlds...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:08:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

In a message dated 2/27/99 3:34:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< WHAT?!  You're used bookstore has a copy?!
 For sale?!
 To the general public?!
 
 And you didn't send a red alert to the TML?!
 
 I'm shocked.  Shocked, I say! >>

if you're serious; I'll go catelog what they got Monday...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:10:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #203

In a message dated 2/27/99 3:52:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< 
 But that will go as the law is going through to remove all but 72 of them..
>>

I heard about this change in the house of lords as an effort to "democratize"
it. Can you please E mail me the details?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:17:31 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pyramid

In a message dated 2/27/99 2:51:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< Hey, fellow aristocrat!   One of my maternal ancestors was an Austro-
 Hungarian count who owned a rope factory (although I am decended from the
 black-sheep son who came to America and became a baker).   Oh, and an ancient
 great-aunt of my father claims we are related to the Danish royal house by
 marriage.  What a blue-blooded list!
 
 		David Von Nelson >>

LOL!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:19:22 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

> >I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
> >(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)
> 
> Well, I am utterly indifferent to your serious umbrage, and am responding to
> your obvious ire with nothing but liberal malice in my heart.

What a petty little person you must be.  If that was your intent for the post,
you should've emailed him privately, troll.

> I'd prefer to thank god (or whoever, though I'm going to avoid that
> particular can of worms in this particular post) for men with the moral

It figures.  It really does.

> convictions to *refuse* such repugnant tasks, even if it meant prosecution. 
> (Oh, and while I'm at it, could someone remind me just what threat the
> Vietnamise posed to the Western World again?  It's not part of my
> bedwetting-liberal-bleeding heart curriculum.)  Y'see, 'I ain't got no
> quarrel with them Viet Cong' either.

It's probably one of the electives.

What happened after Saigon fell?  Try moving to Vietnam and tell us how happy
you are there.  Instead you'll sit on your probably fat ass, in comfort
provided for you by all the people who've bled and died for your country in
military service, and spout that filth degrading their actions.  Better yet,
imagine yourself in either North or South Vietnam during the war of aggression
by North against the South.  You really want to debate this, try it.  

 ob trav.  There are plenty (though this is likely to be quite charged) I can
envision... Border worlds on the Imperial border.  Name a planet with it's
historty unwritten.  Have the unity between Imperial and Solomani and/or
Zhodani border broken by the aggression of one nation against another,
creating balkanization...
 
> Oh, and for the record, I am quite pleased that I am not likely to be going
> to war any time soon.  What little time I spent in the infantry when I was
> young and stupid was quite enough for me.  I'm not cut out for life in the
> service, and last I looked, even the Canadian Armed Forces (as opposed to
> the mighty U.S. war machine) is doing fine without me.  I am proud of my
> grandfather (who saw service in WWII), but I have no desire to emulate him. 
> Especially by interfering in the affairs of a postage stamp of a nation on
> the other side of the world.  I leave that to the professionals. 

Just HOPE there's not a war and you get drafted.  Unless you find a way to
worm out of things you're not "young and stupid" enough to be "cut out" for.
You might just be old and/or sorry enough to be skipped, though, if you're
lucky.

> >The quiet bravery demonstrated by Hathcock and his peers is a testimonial
> >that rare men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before
> >personal moral comfort.  We can all learn from such men.
> 
> I agree with you with the exception of the 'personal moral comfort' bit.  If
> I make the obvious rebuttal though, you'll likely have a frothing coronary
> on the spot.  Just because your government says that something (wrong) is
> acceptible simply does not make it so.  Moral courage is refusing to do
> something odious and accepting the consequences.

As well as doing what's needed when it's necessary.  Claiming moral courage
when refusing to do one's duty and obeying the laws of his land isn't anything
but moral bankruptcy.

> (Weary note - I am not suggesting that the individual in question was
> morally bankrupt, so don't even start down that road.  I'm saying that Wrong
> is Wrong.)

And Right is Right.  It's well good you don't make that accusation, as it's
unsupportable.

> >The next time you feel like slandering the honored dead, try looking
> >at the bigger picture before mouthing off. :^(
> 
> Please illustrate just where exactly I 'slandered' the man.  For that
> matter, until you do so, I will consider myself the innocent victim of your
> brutally slanderous (but remarkably well-written) assault, with the
> exception of the smiley, on the grounds that I find noses on smileys to be
> irritating.  On that count, I may sue for emotional damage.

OH, how bout:

<<As a further comment (if I'm gonna get flamed, I might as well work at
earning it) I rather agree with the fellow who mentioned something to the
effect that being a highly skilled killer is nothing to brag about.>>

You don't know what brutal is.  Nearly every (if not every) civilization and
culture on our planet Earth has held a distinction between the killer and the
warrior.

> To be serious for a moment, I wonder what the individual in question might
> say about his hunting down and killing of (93?  I forget) targets in cold
> blood.  Would he consider it an admirable deed, or a praiseworthy one?

Praiseworthy and admirable, by others, if you read his *conduct* on the
missions he went on, ignoring for a moment the objectives or goals (and
overall strategy), but just *what* he actually did in the progression of such.
You are not physically nor mentally capable and *could* not do those missions,
even if you were so inclined.   Even the characters you might be lucky enough
to roll up and have survive chargen would not be able to accomplish them.

A humble person, as the Gunny was, would never claim such.  Nor the pure valor
and skill with which he conducted himself.  Some, including me, would well
identify that as heroic.

> Oh, and one last note to ensure you'll loathe me and my ilk forever - by
> definition, the dead (honoured or otherwise) cannot be slandered, as far as
> my understanding of libel laws etc. goes.  What this has to do with your
> tirade, I am uncertain, but I feel fairly certain that you'll manage to take
> yet more umbrage at it.

What a bitter little person you must be.  LOL.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:19:25 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...

> >The quiet bravery demonstrated by Hathcock and his peers is a testimonial
> >that rare men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before
> >personal moral comfort.  We can all learn from such men.
> 
> Yeah, not to be like them.  This country would not have stood or fallen
> based on what Hathcock did over there.

You do read, right Clif?  "Hathcock and his perrs... who recognize that rare
men exist who recognize country before self, and duty before personal moral
comfort."

Hathcock is just an example.  They are too numerous to count who's shed blood,
sweat, and tears have given the nice soft, cushy, and irrelevant lives many
lead, in many nations. 

And not just "over there" but also in Hue City, Gettysburg, against the Nazis,
Krauts, Confederates, NVA, etc etc.  Paces almost as numerous as those who've
died.  We can well debate "over there," too.  

I don't think you *could* be like them, if the lives of your family, friends,
and neighbors demanded it.  If you displayed the same attitude with the people
in your unit, as you do here, you'd end up dead, and not by enemy hands,
though it probably wouldn't be provable... ;-)

<snip sig>
> Gee, that's not a biased opinion!

It only hints at the possible experience and a knowledge of what he speaks,
unlike some...  Get a sig with and/or relate some of your qualifications and
experience, Clif.  Let us all have good knowledge at what you really know, and
in what basis you've formed your opinions.  Maybe we'll even get a laugh out
of it.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:21:46 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

In a message dated 2/27/99 4:15:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< You don't mean that it can catch up to me in jump space, right?  It'll have
 to run into me when I'm out of jump, correct?
  >>

Correct; I think the previous poster was implying that the J5 AHL could "get
ahead" of you and be waiting, asuming her skipper guessed were you were
heading...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:48:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

In a message dated 2/27/99 7:14:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 This is the main wartime mission for Marines.  They blast a landing zone to
 allow the big Army shuttles to bring down the "grinding force" of Army
 troops and equipment to do the rest of the fighting.  This frees the fleet
 up to continue the offensive.
  >>

I like this analysis. This seems like the natural role for the Striker II
Marine Task forces (Battalions of Marine "leg" infantry with an integral Meson
battery). The only question I have is how the Marine armor units in Striker II
(Marine Armored Cavalry Regiments, which have all branches of service, since
it appears suspiciously like an American ACR...) are used? What's the ratio of
Task forces to ACRs? Are the ACR's saved for REALLY hot LZ's? Since they are
mostly grav armor, are they the intermediate waves between the cap troopers
and the assault shuttles? This sounds like an idea for a dissertation to be
read at the Imperial War College... 

Lastly; has the Imperial Guard (9 Jump Troop Regiments with integral grav tank
battalions, a grav tank regiment, and an artillery regiment....SCARY...) ever
been commited to battle? Are they combat elites, or just spit and polish toy
soldiers? 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:55:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

In a message dated 2/27/99 9:29:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
smithw@hartwick.edu writes:

<< Of course, it has two hangar decks, a boat deck and a couple of launch 
 tubes. Did it keep any of those Navy-issue 6G Fighters on board? >>

Heh, heh, heh...You're not cleared for that information....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:05:15 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>> >I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
>> >(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)

>> Well, I am utterly indifferent to your serious umbrage, and am responding to
>> your obvious ire with nothing but liberal malice in my heart.

>What a petty little person you must be.  If that was your intent for the post,
>you should've emailed him privately, troll.

Okay, hows about we take this particular little hatefest of a thread and shove
it were the sun don't shine. This is so offensive and so far OT that it ain't
funny. War is a monstrosity and never ever is it fair, just or nice. I have said
this before and I will say it again. Who deserves greater respect, the private
who fell on Omaha beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau?



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:06:33 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: OT: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>(Oh, and while I'm at it, could someone remind me just what threat the
>Vietnamese posed to the Western World again?  It's not part of my
>bedwetting-liberal-bleeding heart curriculum.)  Y'see, 'I ain't got no
>quarrel with them Viet Cong' either.

Maybe you could ask my wife and her family about this?  Infact, I will do
you the favor while I am in Vietnam this summer.
I am sure they can explain about the Viet Cong and their enlightened
attitudes.  Perhaps they will even be able to give you some good examples of
why they wanted American help with the Viet Cong and NVA.
I mean, what could be wrong with a group/ideology that imprisoned family
members just because their fathers/uncles/brothers fought against them?
Nothing I guess. Then again you would probably rather stay home and burn
your draft card than help out a country that is danger of losing its way of
life?
Perhaps you could even take the time to explain to my wife why she was told
her father was dead for the first 9 years of her life in order to protect
her from Communist retribution?

See Ya later,

PS. Not even a death wish this time.

TV

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:16:51 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: batten down... & Moral Umbrage

Thom Harris wrote:
> 
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> >>  Hathcock *NEVER* bragged
> >
> >Probably because he knew he was "an errand boy for grocery clerks".
> >>
> >> We can all learn from such men.
> >
> >Yeah, not to be like them.  This country would not have stood or fallen
> >based on what Hathcock did over there.
> >
> >--Clif
> >
> Clif you have said a lot of things on this list that I kept quiet on and let
> the fur fly as it might...  ...Either you SHUTUP or I will personally start a petition
> to have you expelled from the list...
> Thom Harris
> Chief Warrant Officer (Ret.)
> U.S Army


>> Oh, and one last note to ensure you'll loathe me and my ilk forever - by
>> definition, the dead (honoured or otherwise) cannot be slandered, as far as
>> my understanding of libel laws etc. goes.  What this has to do with your
>> tirade, I am uncertain, but I feel fairly certain that you'll manage to take
>> yet more umbrage at it.

>What a bitter little person you must be.  LOL.  
>Gary

The ONLY thing I agree with Ross Coburn on is there will definitely
continue to be more umbrage on this subject.  I don't think this will
stop unless we actively try to stop it.  I for one would like to see
this subject off the list despite how strongly I feel about it (actually
I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of people being taken off the list ;). I
am asking those who feel strongly on this subject to filter Clif and
Ross to the trash, as I have done.  I think that will be the quickest
way to get back to discussing Traveller.

Clay

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:41:33 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage

Please take this topic off-list, or demonstrate its relevence to Traveller.
While I am (as are we all) an opinionated being, I don't believe that this
is the place to be discussing the morality of war, except perhaps in the
inequal application of the Imperial Laws of War to Megacorps and PCs.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:44:46 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

<<SNIP>>


>
>Dom wrote:
>>What would your feeling be if BITS published, say, a 40 page A4
>(that's
>>approximately the same size as the GT books) or 40 page A5 (101/LBB
>size)
>>adventure module range with GT and T4 stats (T4 because it is pretty
>easy
>>to convert back and is likely to be compatible with T5, if the drafts
>are
>>to be believed)?
<<UNSNIP>>

Yes please!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:58:53 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Natliatl

Fellow Sophonts,
    I and my associates have been following the debate concerning the
structure of the 3rd Imperium with some interest and, might I add,
trepidation.  I have, after a long period of introspection, and after due
consultation with my peers, have decided to interject a note of
internationalism, if you will, into your discussion.
    In the first place, I recognize then horror with which your culture
regards psionics at your present stage of development, and will attempt to
avoid needless antgonism over the subject. I will therefor not bring up this
subject again.
    Secondly, it seems to me that your debate is missing one object only,
focus.  You debate the properties that an ideal government should possess,
but fail to identify the goal of that government.  A tool without a purpose,
however finely crafted and sturdy, is in the end worthless.  A government
without a goal is equally so.  I believe that if you were to first decide
what exactly, you wish your Imperium to accomplish this year, next year, a
thousand years from now, perhaps you would gain a little more insight in the
means to reach that goal.  As an example, the Consulate is geared to reach
several long term goals:

The survival of our philosophy and way of life.
The happiness of our citizens.
An understanding of the Universe and the being found within.

As an outsider, I would have to admit ignorance of what the average Imperial
citizen would see as the goal of the Imperium, besides perhaps simple
physical security from external enemies.  It is certain that no objectives
are enshrined either directly or indirectly anywhere in the (non-existant)
Imperial Constitution.

    The final note that I wish to make is the strength of the political
system currently enjoyed by the Consulate.  The key point is tha only at the
lowest possible level are representatives elected by the electorate.  In
essence, our government is a hierarchy of councils, each elected by the
council under it, from the members of that council, all the way to the
Supreme Council.  We have the best of both worlds.  While a good politician
may be able to have him or herself elected to the local council, it becomes
progressively more difficult to move up the chain on charisma alone.  For
us, the restriction of the electorate to the nobilty is an established and
successful tradition.  Application of any representative system to the
Imperium would obviously involve a further debate as to the nature of the
electorate.

Finally, on behalf of the Supreme Council and the sophonts of the Zhodani
Consulate, I wish you the greatest of success in your endeavor to improve
your polity.   It is my sincerest hope that our nations will not meet again
on the field of battle, but may remain peaceful neighbors in adversity as
well as prosperity.

Natliatl,
3rd Minister for Historical Studies,
Embassy of the Zhodani Consulate,
Capitol

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:45:02 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Here's another question for the TML'ers out there for "First In".  Is there
> a canon COLOR listed for Scout ships?

Sure Gloss White with Gold Accents, Flat white in war zones.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:56:10 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

Black ICE wrote:

> Walter G. Smith wrote:
> >
> > StevenA201 wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >Um, you're missing near-C pirates, and fighting jump torpedoes...
> >
> > Not trolling!  Not not not!  I just wasn't around when this stuff came up, and
> > it's important background for MTU.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > That's nothing...you also missed the discussion on lesbian Aslan. <weg>
> >
> Along with the cannibal Vilani ;-)  "Uncle Eneri was a man of good
> taste...."
>
> Admittedly, the Hallowe'en discussion on cannibal Vilani was
> entertaining, but that was probably because most of us played it for
> effect.  From what I've heard, the original discussion was a bit more
> heated.

Oh, yes.

But, the K'Kree recipes thread that went with it was fun.

Anybody want a Corndog?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:13:41 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Umm Guys,
Let us please let this Thread die.

I know I'm one to talk after last year.

But, to my fellow vets, Honor is something we talk about
and understand. Major chunks of the rest of the world
DON'T get it. And browbeating them won't make them
understand.

I'm been  out over a decade and I still running in to this
wall full tilt.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #219
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 220



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)
Re: Cultural Differences
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Mouth Noises
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Jump training
re: Quarterly hate-fest?
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Lifting off
Re: M:E21 fixes
Re: Milieu E21
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)
deckplans
Re: Aristocrats (was: Pyramid)
Re: Jump training
Re: Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage
Long Night Polities (was:  Quarterly hate-fest?)
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
[Debate]  The Old Marquis resp. to  Natliatl 1
Re: World Hooks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:46:19 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Umm...

I have nothing but respect for the Gunny Hathcock, and had the unfortunate 
duty to let a friend of mine know of his passing when I read of it here. 
 But this is not the forum to either attack, or defend, his life and the 
principles that he believed in.

Gunny Hathcock is dead.  Regardless of what you thought of him, he was a 
human being who, at least for one moment, cared more for his companions 
than he did of himself, and selflessly gave of himself to save them.  For 
that alone, he should be honored.

The moment is past.  There is no reason that this conversation need be 
continued on the TML.  We have gone over this ground time and time again - 
and each time we relearn the bitter truth that our beliefs are not 
universally shared, and that other people have just as strong of 
convictions in ideals that may be diametrically opposed to our own.

Let it rest.  If you feel you must respond to this, then respond to me 
personally.  My email is douglas@teleport.com

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:22:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)

Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:07:34 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com
><< My approach would have been to simply tell players/GMs that if
> they want a ships to take off of a world with more than 1G,
> they should give it more than 1G of thrust.  (Otherwise,
> you park in orbit and take a shuttle, secondary vehicle,
> etc. down to the surface.  Presumably merchant ships would
> be designed with something like 1.5 G of accleration so that
> they can land on most worlds.

>This screws the fat merchant which is 1G and it's RO-RO cargo deck (ala a C-5
>Galaxy) screams low tech world cargo loading/unloading, which from what I
>understand tend to be on roughly .8-1.2G worlds...

Right, so just a bit of extra accel (as you mention, even 1.21 G)
will do just fine.  So you design the ship to have that much
acceleration.  It just takes a small tweak of the design.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:58:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
...
>You know what a kiwi looks like ?

  Yes. You'd rather discuss gun control or liberal scum vs quasi-fascists? :)

>It's hard to imagine a foot tall, hairy-feathered, flightless bird
>with poor daylight eyesight and a beak that's designed only to suck
>small insects out of the humus being considered viscious. Especially
>as they don't run in packs.

  Nice try - I've heard about the new Killer Penguins in GURPS, and I figure
if I carry some kiwi fruit _and_ the herrings I'll have full evasive capability.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:00:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
...
>provided for you by all the people who've bled and died for your country 

  *.ca = Canada, not California (nice thought though). Last time I checked
Quebec was still part of Canada, so I doubt that the original poster is in
much danger of having a US draft card, among other things.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:56:46 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Mouth Noises

Free Traders go "FCHRFFFFRAAAAAAA - (SUDDEN SILENCE) FRCH - FRCH - (SOUNDS
OF YELLING AND CONSOLE BANGING) -
FCHRAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnn..........."

Imperial fighters go "whsh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh" and are gone into the
distance, except when they go "boom!"
MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:01:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

First there was a post about how someone objected to glorifying someone
for killing many *dozens* of people.  It wasn't a flame, or terribly
hostile, just a statement of belief.  The response was: 

>> >I take serious umbrage at this stereotypic bedwetting liberal drivel.
>> >(Please note the TOTAL ABSENCE of emoticons.)

The response to this post was fairly angry, but after phrases like
"bedwetting liberal drivel" that sort of reaction seems pretty
reasonable. 
 
Part of the response to the quote above included:

>> I agree with you with the exception of the 'personal moral comfort' bit.  If
>> I make the obvious rebuttal though, you'll likely have a frothing coronary
>> on the spot.  Just because your government says that something (wrong) is
>> acceptible simply does not make it so.  Moral courage is refusing to do
>> something odious and accepting the consequences.

Then TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> As well as doing what's needed when it's necessary.  Claiming moral courage
> when refusing to do one's duty and obeying the laws of his land isn't 
> anything but moral bankruptcy.

That's the key to the disagreement.  Some people here believe that some 
actions (in this case killing other humans) is just *wrong*.  Such people 
(myself included) believe that all the laws and commandments by the 
government on how it is you duty to kill "the enemy" in some war doesn't 
make it right.

Folks like you seem to believe obedience to the laws of the land and
following the orders of your government is more important than personal
belief.  While that position seriously troubles me, I'm not about to
object to you holding it. 

However, when someone voiced his belief in some other position and
objected to someone glorifying what he considered mass murder he got
jumped on in a rather vicious fashion by numerous people. 

You may wholeheartedly believe in what you say, but that is no excuse to
flame someone who disagrees.  The initial post complaining about
glorifying a sniper for the number of his kills was not viscous or
hostile, the responses were. 

Similarly

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

> Umm Guys,
> Let us please let this Thread die.

> I know I'm one to talk after last year.
 
> But, to my fellow vets, Honor is something we talk about
> and understand. Major chunks of the rest of the world
> DON'T get it. And browbeating them won't make them
> understand.

Good sentiments initially, but what you said is that you other soldiers
and ex-soldiers understand honor and we *don't*.  If that's your way of
trying to calm things down you should rethink you tactics.  I strongly
believe I'm an honorable person and have a fairly good understanding what
that means.  Likely, you feel that same way.  Are you *certain* your
understanding of honor is correct and mine is not?  Does violently
disagreeing with you because of beliefs I hold very deeply make me a
dishonorable person?  I doubt I'm the only person who felt insulted by
your above statement. 
  
In any case, let's all show some more tolerance and things can settle 
down here.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  
 (who will not post on this topic again)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:10:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jump training

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Kayaks were used. My uncle lost the new kayaks his team had purchased -
>requisitioned for the SAS or Marines. He used to joke about getting 'his'
>kayak back with a 'kill count'.

I just skim read the SA War book - the Pebble Island raid was performed
using Kayaks by the SAS; they deployed on shore opposite the island (it
doesn't say how but ISTR helicopters being mentioned) and used the Kayaks
to cross and create havoc.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:00:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Quarterly hate-fest?

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>TML Great Old One
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

And don't, whatever you do, open the box....

;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:07:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>>I'm still of the opinion that given their unique qualities, Jump troops
>>would be deployed independantly, and not attached to larger formations under
>>most circumstances.  Of course, I'm just speculating based on the info that
>>I have.

<snip>

>This is the main wartime mission for Marines.  They blast a landing zone to
>allow the big Army shuttles to bring down the "grinding force" of Army
>troops and equipment to do the rest of the fighting.  This frees the fleet
>up to continue the offensive.

Do you see the Imperial Army having equipment deployed in place at
strategic worlds with a small guard section, waiting for units to be moved
in following mobilisation. Something like the way some of the US Divisions
had equipment ready in Germany.

If so, wouldn't this be a prime target for the Ine Givar / Zhodani Commando
raids, if only to get hold of TL15 kit? Would it be emplaced at a Naval
base as standard?

If you didn't do this, you would need a massive lift capability to deploy
the Imperial army. Admittedly, the development of technology means a grav
tank / APC unit becomes its own air support and highly maneuverable, but
we're still talking a big lift capacity to move in tanks alone.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:13:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lifting off

In mail you write:

> In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
> atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
> drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
>
> Assume that Our Heroes have a ship with 1g thrusters, 1g CG, on a 1g world.
>  Would the CG neutalize the local gravity completely, allowing the ship to
> thrust as if were already in micro-g?  What if the world was 1.5g?

What I hear about the "official" rules on CG I dislike intensely. So
this is highly *unofficial*.

The 1 g of CG will neutralize up to 1 g of gravity. But having more CG
than the local grav won't help. (you can't make the spacetime around
your ship any flatter than flat :-)

So on the 1 g world, you can use all your thrust to accelerate upwards.
On the 1.5 g world, your *effective* upwards accel will be .5 g.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:31:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M:E21 fixes

In mail you write:

> Now I need brainstormed plot ideas for this era.  The big focus, of
> course, is twofold: the development of the jump drive (can I call it the
> Alderson drive without getting sued?)

Probably not. At least not if you publish anything.

> and the upcoming First War
> against the Ziru Sirka.  That means there will be a core Arc of adventures,
> perhaps:

> - Find out just what kind of ruins really are buried on Mars...

Check out some of Hoagland's stuff about the "Face on Mars". Do *not*
buy anything that's been printed recently, as that's all scam stuff.
You see, we got new pictures of the site from the Pathfinder probe last
year. And it turns out it *was* a trick of the light. So the folks that
are still producing stuff are pure con-men. 

> Also, I've been thinking about space travel.  Early on, it may take weeks
> to get any distance.  Anyone have an idea what engines and accelerations
> Early, Middle, and Late E21 should have?

Up until you get to the point where you can maintain high acceleration
for *days* at a time, voyages will take *months* or even *years*. And
you'll spend months waiting for favorable planetary alignments as
otherwise the fuel costs get *really* ugly.

Being able to maintain .001g or more for months is the first step in
cutting down the trip times. 

Up until that point, all better engines do is make the slow trips
cheaper, and make "faster" but more expensive trips possible. 

We *really* need programs that'll track planetary positions and let
refs *easily* plot trips between planets for different ship types.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:46:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

In mail you write:

> IMO, not all these suggested spaceports would be, could be, or should
> be available throughout the whole century.
>
> Also, as Clayton mentioned above, the highest quality ports are likely to
> be where they have been around the longest and are close to large
> populations.  Consequently, Texas and Florida should be the premier
> ports in the US.  There is a good argument that these locations, and
> a few others, are class B today.
>
> Come to think of it, most major international airports will be class C
> ports, won't they?

I haven't seen the port list. But do keep in mind the fact that good
spaceport locations are apt to be in places you wouldn't normally think
of. For example, there are good arguments for building a commercial
port in the southwestern US once access to space gets a bit cheaper. 

The reasons are that there's *lots* of space, good rail access (for
freight) and (VERY important!) natural gas pipelines and electric
power. Those last two give you cheap fuel. 

Also, until we get some really good drives, there will be *major*
advantages to having sites near the equator. There will be large
advantages to high altitude sites. 

So places to keep an eye on are places like Ecuador (equatorial *and*
thin atmosphere!). Possibly New Guinea, as it's near the equator and
has a high plateau. Africa doesn't really have that many good sites,
though it's *possible* that someone may try building an electromagnetic
launcher up the side of Mt Kilimanjaro. And I expect that the Chinese
may try to build some sites on the Tibetan plateau. Oh yeah. Hawaii has
*distinct* possibilities.

But *existing* infrastructure is important too. Still, the Aussies keep
talking about a New Guinea launch site. Ecaudor is more of a reach, but
the folks in French Guyana may eventually decide that it's worth the
problems. And Hawaii has got lots of pluses.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:56:14 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:05:15 +1300
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
snip
>Okay, hows about we take this particular little hatefest of a thread and shove
>it were the sun don't shine. This is so offensive and so far OT that it ain't
>funny. War is a monstrosity and never ever is it fair, just or nice. I have 
>said
>this before and I will say it again. Who deserves greater respect, the private
>who fell on Omaha beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau?
>Andrew etc.
   	   I would feel bad for them and their families.  I would respect the
private who fell on Omaha beach more.  I respect someone for what they do.
Unless you tell me the person who died in Dachau was doing something worthy
of respect I have no reason to feel anything other than pity and certain
amount of shame the human race can fall to this point. The soldier who died
on Omaha beach died trying to stop the government who ran Dachau.    I
respect the people that die looking for the lost kid.  It seems like every
year we hear about someone who falls through the ice and dies because they
were trying to save another person who had fallen through.  Everyone dies
at some point.  It may sound cruel & heartless to some, but WHAT did they
die for?

(obtrav)  I see this type of thing in gaming fairly regularly.  Some
characters are selfless, they do what they have to do and are not terribly
concerned about the personal consequences.  When they go out they often
pick a meteoric method of dieing.  Their death means something.  They may
not have accomplished much, but they never quit striving for what they
believe in.  They willingly buy the whole farm.  Other characters  die the
cowards death.  They hide every time something dangerous happens.  Their
party members laugh about them.  Eventually they hide in the wrong place
and they become the butt of many jokes.  This is not to say we should make
jokes about the Quaker above, but to say IMHO you earn respect for what you
do.  Dieing in and of itself does not earn my respect.  War is hell, but
there is a lot of sense in the old saying of "That which does not kill me
makes me stronger."  Some of  the greatest people in history have been
tempered in the fires of war.  I don't have to like war to respect some of
the people who have fought and their actions.

								Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:09:46 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)

>How a 1G ship takes off from a 1G planet was pretty much
>ignored (like in CT).  Presumably (like in CT again) one
>can "push" the dirve up for a few dozen minutes.

Alternatively, make them land & take off with only a partial load or
light load. This adds colour, plot hooks and the hard science feel.

Note that a "1G" Beowulf free trader can pull around 2.5 Gs with an
empty cargo hold, and 2.7Gs if no jump fuel too
(corresponding Empress Marava figures are 2.0/2.3Gs), a bit less if
armed.

If you and your players were really into it, you could make them
calculate the maximum mass of load they could afford to take to/from any
given planet. They are quite likely to forget the "to" requirement until
they are there <weg>. Hey they have library data, they should use it :-)

Rather than have them crash on landing with an overweight load, you
could have the nav computer pop-up a warning when they plot in the
landing course.  They then have the choice of "spacing" some cargo or
not landing.

Question on aerodynamics:

What does air pressure do to drag, and hence max speed in atmosphere?
Is it linear - i.e. double the air pressure double the drag ? or what?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:00:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: deckplans

Thanks to everyone who made suggestions about deckplans.

I went with the ghostscript/pdf route. The results can be found at:

http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans

(note that this is not linked to the rest of my site - which is
non traveller and well out of date.)

The usual bandwidth warning that the deckplans are 2.5M should be
made.

My pdf viewer has a bug about line widths (ie they are all several
times too thick and all the detail is lost - so if someone could
assure me that the deckplans are useable, I would appreciate it.

Phil Kitching

ps
the correct phonetics of the "X" in the ship's name is "Ecks", not
"Ten".

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:37:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aristocrats (was: Pyramid)

In a message dated 2/27/99 10:41:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 While I can't trace my family tree back _that_ far, I nevertheless still
 proudly believe that I, too, had ancestors.
  >>

	Surely at least one renegade baker (and part time-carnival ride operator)

			Dave N

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:41:00 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Jump training

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

> All Marines are jump trained.  Only Imperial Army units wear the Jump
> Certification badge.
> For them it's something special.

Which brings the question, at which TL become Jump Troops feasible 
for planetary assaults from orbit? Probably most marines are 
High Stellar- equipped, but not all. And certainly not all the Army 
units are High Stellar.

To rephrase it: What is the minimum TL such that you can have Jump 
Troops capable of dropping from orbit into an Standard or Dense 
atmosphere world with a gravity close to 1 G?
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:47:27 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage

	I'd like to respectfully second the motion for the discussion of War,
Morality and Vietnam be taken off list.   It is easy o get caught up in this
sort of thing (as I learned in the post-Starship Troopers discussion) but it
causes you to lose perspective and forget that this is a hobby discussion
list.  Let it drop please.


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:55:33 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Long Night Polities (was:  Quarterly hate-fest?)

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> >On a more serious note; does anyone have any hard data on polities which
> >survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit in MT,
> >but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?
> 
> There's a TD which has a concise history of the 3rd Imperium which mentions
> some of the Solomani ones (17?).
> 
> The Solomani Rim and S&A also mention them.
> 
> Can't think of much more, but there may be something in Knightfall - ISTR
> Carlos saying something..

TD 11 and Knightfall both mention the matriarchal Rebin Empire in 
Massilia, clearly establishing its pre-Imperial origin. TD 11 has 
library data on their worlds. Also Knightfall, but added soem 
comments on the Rebellion (of course they supported Margaret, but 
they were in a Lucan area... imagine the rest).

I have always found interesting to have that matriarchal Empire a 
mere two or three subsectors away from the Geonee and their 
"protect-the-females-by-isolating-them" attitude. Makes for a 
wonderful adventure... if only I could find the time to write that 
Massilia tour in M:0 that I started writing.... and somebody were 
interested...

IIRC one of IG products, I think it was Emperor's Arsenal (?) quoted 
the existence of a "Trentan Federation" in Massilia close to year 0.

Oh, btw, of course IMTU there is a Geonee Confederation which 
survived the long night, but I think thre are n ocanon references. 
Still, FWIW, you can check my homepage. I have there M:0 *corrected* 
UWP data for Massilia, including some Pocket Empires allegiances in 
year 20.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:56:23 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

In regards to the Imperial Army being dependant on some sort of "reforger"
depots to support their operation, I have to point out that I have not seen
ANY references that would indicate such a doctrine.  Army units may be
deployed to a particular world for an extended period of time, but in the end,
their very nature dictates that they remain space-mobile.  The Army seems to
balanced between an offensive/defensive role, where the Marines appear to
built for offensive actions only.  Pre-siting critical supplies for an Army
unit just does not make sense, given that when war DOES break out, they must
remain mobile to perform their offensive role.

As to there being a need for a large Imperial investment in transport capacity
to haul all of these units around, all that I can say is that you are correct,
it would be expensive.  However, it also has been done.  Again, referring back
to "Fifth Frontier War" I see that the Imperial naval forces include  nine
Assault Transport squadrons (8 "Imperial", one "colonial") each capable of
transporting a complete field army with support (c. 600 battalion
equivelents).  So the empire has seen fit to make the investment.  Transports
don't get the glory and attention that the capital ships get, but they are an
important component of the imperial navy nonetheless.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:56:31 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]  The Old Marquis resp. to  Natliatl 1

My dear foreign sir,

You have recently commented   "As an outsider, I would have to admit ignorance
of what the average Imperial citizen would see as the goal of the Imperium,
besides perhaps simple physical security from external enemies.  It is certain
that no objectives are enshrined either directly or indirectly anywhere in the
(non-existant)
 Imperial Constitution."   

	I find it necessary to tell you that the Imperium does have a Constitution,
namely, the Warrant of Restoration.  And therein lies the goal of the
Imperium.  The Imperium does exist for two reasons, the protection of member
worlds and the fostering of trade among them.  Those are it's only purposes.
They are strictly materialistic goals and strictly limited ones.  The reason
for these limted goals is the real, deep philosophical realization that no one
ideology, no one program, no one outlook can satisfy all sophont's spiritual
and psycological needs.  Therefore, the Imperium guarentes each world the
right to chart its own course.  

	While the Imperium sees to the physical infrastructure of space travel, the
individual worlds and citizens see to their own needs.  "Each man's duty is
the king's, but each man's soul's his own."  to quote the ancient poet.

				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:27:03 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

> So, let me propose something a little bit different, something
> that's not necessarily tied to a given ruleset or campaign area.
> That is, societies and cultures that might be found _somewhere_
> in a Traveller universe.

Among the most useful things thta I have ever found for my campaigns 
are generic world write-ups. Of course, they lack an specific 
interstellar setting, but heck, nobody else out there is 
refereeing neither in Massilia nor Beyond the Vargr Extents, 
so...

> 1. Universities are heavily politicized, and don't cooperate so
> much as they compete, so archaeology is conducted a la Indiana
> Jones.  Valuable sites of pre-human settlement are claimed by
> institutions which don't have the resources to investigate them
> properly but refuse to let anyone else do so.

	The gaming value of this is that the Archaeologist career suddenly 
becomes much more interesting. However, I suspect this is more likely 
to be generalized either in M:0 or outside the Imperium.
 
> 3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
> technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world is
> fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have been
> using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their beasts
> for centuries now.

	So the world is balkanized, but the "countries" do not have any 
territories, but rather "own" and follow large animal flocks which 
are difficult to control (this being the reason for nomadism in the 
first place). From time to time, two of these flocks meet, which may 
give rise either to a commercial and cultural exchange, or to a 
bloody war. Of course at TL 7 they are going to be able to roughly 
predict the meeting, so Espionage agencies may mount operations to 
deviate the other flock from its route, which goes to the best 
pastures... and the PCs goal... ops, did you say *world* hook? Got 
carried away... hmmm... if the inhabitants are Vargr, things turn 
even more interesting...

> 4. The local environment is cold, thin atmosphere; very warm and
> humid; or very hot and dry. Protective gear of some kind is a
> necessity for humans who live or work outside the centers of
> settlement, but the local life forms are well adapted to the
> conditions.

	Not only that, but the world in question has enough mineral ores to 
have attracted industries long ago, and is now a High Pop, Industrial 
world. Easy to justify if the interstellar government wants to 
encourage pollutant industries out of Rich worlds: go to inhospitable 
ones. 
	You would probably end uo with one big administrative startown, and 
dozens of industrial centers. Then, the industries realize that the 
lcoal fauna is edible with some treatment and start feeder industries 
to avoid importing food.
 
> 5. The culture has a peculiar taboo against writing and depends
> on oral culture, but maintains a suprisingly high tech level
> through rote learning, memorization, and apprenticeship.
 
	This is a good one! The individuals from this culture tend to get 
good employments in positions where speed of reaction is important, 
since they are used to have everything in mind and not to rely on 
books...
 
> Any comments or suggestions for variations or development? Shall
> I do more?

	By all means! And please file them!
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #220
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 221



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: Jump training
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Well said.
Re: Milieu E21
Re: World Hooks
Re: Smallpox
Imperial Currency UWP (was Re: Milieu E21)
Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: World Hooks
Re: batten down the hatches...
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Lifting Off
Re: Color of scout ships
Viscous Flame-Fests (was: Re: Moral Umbrage...)
The Measure of a Man
World Hooks 3

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:33:31 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

> From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
> See Space Gamer, issue #74 (May '85) for an article entitled "Role
> Playing Dracula", by W. Peter Miller

For those of you playing G:T, there was an old Roleplayer article 
(free on sJG web page) dealing with Vampires in G: Cyberpunk. It 
should be usable for G: Space and G: T, although personally the very 
thought of it gives me the creeps... ;->
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:04:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump training

At 03:41 PM 2/28/99 +0000, you wrote:

>To rephrase it: What is the minimum TL such that you can have Jump 
>Troops capable of dropping from orbit into an Standard or Dense 
>atmosphere world with a gravity close to 1 G?

The Canon Inqusition speaketh:

Since the Vilani Empire was TL 11, and they have jump units in _Imperium_,
We would say that around TL 11.


- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:16:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

At 10:07 AM 2/28/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Do you see the Imperial Army having equipment deployed in place at
>strategic worlds with a small guard section, waiting for units to be moved
>in following mobilisation. Something like the way some of the US Divisions
>had equipment ready in Germany.

I see the army as operating mostly on the Subsector level.  Thus the
Marshal of Lunion can focus his attention on what threatens his area.
Units would be posted to strategic worlds on a rotating basis.

POMCUS depots for the 3I?  Neat idea...  One thing that made
POMCUS/Reforger work though was the speed of communication and travel.  You
could stick the entire 24th ID (M) on 747 and have them all across the
Atlantic in a few days, and they'd know that their equipment was still
there.  With the travel times in Traveller, a division could find their
equipment depot a smoking wreck and a few thousand grinning Zhodani ready
escort them to a POW camp.

Supply caches (big ones) would be scattered throughout the subsector.

>If so, wouldn't this be a prime target for the Ine Givar / Zhodani Commando
>raids, if only to get hold of TL15 kit? Would it be emplaced at a Naval
>base as standard?

Over in alt.folklore.military we're having an interesting discussion about
nuclear weapons storage.  In case you've never been near special weapons
storage areas, the guards have carte blanche to use deadly force.  That's
how these depots would be guarded.  Cross the line and they will shot to kill.

But that won't stop them from trying.

>If you didn't do this, you would need a massive lift capability to deploy
>the Imperial army. Admittedly, the development of technology means a grav
>tank / APC unit becomes its own air support and highly maneuverable, but
>we're still talking a big lift capacity to move in tanks alone.

Oddly enough, I was going to design an army transport this morning.

IMTU, the Subsector Navy's main job is support.  They provide the bulk of
the tanker and transport fleet for the Imperials.  The Lunion Fleet can
build at TL-13, so they ships of the 43rd fleet are built elsewhere
(Glisten most like), and Lunion pays for the support vessels.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:31:55
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

At 01:48 AM 2/28/99 EST, you wrote:

>The only question I have is how the Marine armor units in Striker II
>(Marine Armored Cavalry Regiments, which have all branches of service, since
>it appears suspiciously like an American ACR...) are used? What's the ratio 
>of Task forces to ACRs? Are the ACR's saved for REALLY hot LZ's? Since they 
>are mostly grav armor, are they the intermediate waves between the cap 
>troopers and the assault shuttles? This sounds like an idea for a 
>dissertation to be read at the Imperial War College... 

The MACRs are used when the Imperium needs a heavier regular force, but
cannot commit Army troops for some reason.  In the work I'm doing, there is
one MACR for every twelve Line Regiments.

>Lastly; has the Imperial Guard (9 Jump Troop Regiments with integral grav
>tank battalions, a grav tank regiment, and an artillery
>regiment....SCARY...) ever been commited to battle? Are they combat
elites, >or just spit and polish toy soldiers? 

The only reference to the Guard being in combat comes in theri write-up in
TD #9.  The Guard fought against Adm. Plankwell in a delaying action.
Also, the Illesh Guard was involved in Dulinor's coup attempt in 1116.

What's interesting is that the units of the guard have divided loyalties.
On one hand, they serve the Emperor; on the other they serve the Duke of
their sector.  The emperor only controls the Household Cavlary, the
Imperial Artillery, and the Marine Guard.

I would imagine that the Guard is much like the US 3rd Infantry (The Old
Guard) in Washington.  Mostly ceremonial, but but trained in crowd control
procedures and ready to fight as infantrymen.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:40:19 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
> On 02/25/99 at 02:44 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:
> 
> >In many of my games I rolled all the dice myself, especially with
> >beginning players. I described the task ("That looks hard, easier if
> >you'e dexterous and a trained medic"), they decided if they'd try it,
> >then I rolled dice. The concentrated on role-playing.
> 
> I do the same thing. In PBEM's I do *all* the rolling. FTF, I do most of the routine stuff and the players stay in
> character. For combat and at "crunch time" the players roll.

For PBEMs there is no alternative, right? How do players roll in a 
PB-E-M??? I once tried a system, but did not work well: players sent 
a pre-generated list of rolls before the game started, I draw numbers 
from the list... too much trouble for the results.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:42:47 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Well said.

>Gunny Hathcock is dead.  Regardless of what you thought of him, he was a 
>human being who, at least for one moment, cared more for his companions 
>than he did of himself, and selflessly gave of himself to save them.  For 
>that alone, he should be honored.

Amen. I ain't got no quarrel with that, either.  Well said.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:45:37 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

> From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:46:36 -0500, Rob Eaglestone
> <washi@metronet.com> wrote:
> 
> >The list below shows the location of spaceports on Earth, the class of
> >spaceport, and the monetary system used by the owning nation.  Please
> >note that the spaceport classes vary with the timeline:
> 
> You've got some errors in your monetary units, unless the E21
> timeline diverges from ours sometime in the recent past.  I've
> indicated the correct units below.

Change also Vienna (Austria)... Schilling to Euro...

...and upgrade that Starport!!!!

Carlos (writing from Vienna) ;-)
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:52:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

Not quite on topic, but close..

Yesterday as I sat watching TV and waiting for the Siberian Death Cold(tm)
to go away, I caught one of my favorite movies.. _Tremors_

for those who haven't seen it, it concerns a small town in the middle of a
no where desert in Nevada being attacked by powerful burrowing creatures
that are attracted to vibrations.

As I watched, a plot began to form.. the party hits a low tech, low pop
world, and is asked to ferry an official in their air/raft to check on a
settlement that hasn't been heard from for over a week.  Once there, the
party finds buildings destroyed and a single body, who died of thirst, on a
roof-top..  the first thing the critters will eat will be the party's
air/raft.

Just goes to show that plot and world hooks are everywhere.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:56:42 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Steven wrote:

> > <snipped>  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> > had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> > that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> > the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
> >   --S

So, are we starting the unending Duskir Plague again? Check Vilani & 
Vargr...

Guillem Plasencia wrote:
 
> But american natives and europeans had been isolated about 5000 or 10000 years only (im
> not an archaeologist, does anybody know the exact date america was first settled?) and,

Uh? 30,000 B.C.?

> although they had no direct contact all these thousands of years, they lived in the same
> world all these time, and they were somewhat similar before they leaved and settled
> america (IIRC the firsts settlers were north european or maybe russians across the Bering
> Strait...i don't know, does anybody?), at least more than Solomani and Vilani between

Asians coming over the Bering Strait.

> themselves.
> 
> The question is : is this also equal for Solomani and Vilani? When did they became
> separated by evolution, maybe hundreds of thousands of years? And they've been living in

400 to 300,000 years ago. And it is unclear how much evolution would 
the Vilani have, since Vland could have a different background 
radiation factor than Terra.

> very different homeworlds, that have made evolve them inside different conditions...i
> think it would be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic microorganism ) that
> would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.

Why? The rate of mutation of some of the basic illnesses is 
*incredible.* We can't cure common cold because there are just too 
many varieties. So, maybe 99% of the Solomani illnesses won't affect 
the Vilani. But the remaining 1% could wipe them out. 
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:05:51 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Imperial Currency UWP (was Re: Milieu E21)

> From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>

> I live in Spain, and nowadays, the monetary unit is still the "peseta", although now all banks begin to tell you
> also in euros the amount of money you have/move.

I am an spaniard too, and I have my pesetas. I live in Austria, and I 
have my Shillings... but sorry, they do *not* exist. They are an 
illusion, a fractional division of Euro. Pesetas and Schillings are 
as much of an independent currency as are centimos (farctions of 
peseta) or Groschen (fractions of Shilling). You may still have them 
physically, but all what really exists now is the Euro.

Which is an interesting observation for Traveller.....

- ----------
The Universal Currency Indicator (add to Economic Extension in UWP)
(Preliminary)

1.... This world uses directly Imperial Credits as currency.

	Most likely for small worlds, subsector capitals (where the Cr are 
printed (?)).

2... This world uses both Imperial Credits and Local Credits (see 3).

3... This world uses Local Credits, which have a fixed rate of 
exchange with Imperial Cr. Hence, they are in reality a fractional 
division of the Imperial Cr.

	Most likely for large worlds heavily involved in interstellar trade.

4... This world uses true local currency (see 5), but Imperial 
Credits are in circulation.

5... This world uses true local currency, with a variable rate of 
exchange to the Imperial Credit. Imperial Credits can't be used at 
the world.

	Most likely for old, well-developed worlds, e.g. minor racs 
homeworlds.

6... This world allows the use of all kinds of currencies.

	Most likely for free ports.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:28:49 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?


>>
>> Admittedly, the Hallowe'en discussion on cannibal Vilani was
>> entertaining, but that was probably because most of us played it for
>> effect.  From what I've heard, the original discussion was a bit more
>> heated.
>
>Oh, yes.
>
>But, the K'Kree recipes thread that went with it was fun.
>
>Anybody want a Corndog?
>                                     ^^^^
>--
>Evyn...
>
Now you're bringing the Vargr into it......Jeez, when does it end ;)
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:30:33 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

Oh, Great Caesar's ghost!   Can't I be safe from Vampie-freaks even in
Traveller ;-)

	

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:36:26 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

Reading your post below has compelled me to bring up another decent Sci-Fi
movie that I stole some ideas from, Screamers....Futuristic movie set on
some wayward mining planet (Terra Formed?) that had two factions that were
trying to kill each other off.  One faction created these little "robots"
that attacked with spinning saws to cut you to pieces, they emitted a loud
screaming noise not disimilar to the whirring of saw blades at high speed.
A lot more when you watch the movie but I stole the setting, some of the
items they used, the semi-underground "shelters/fortress" and more to use in
a couple of my plots.  Very good movie IMHO, I really enjoyed it.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: World Hooks


>Not quite on topic, but close..
>
>Yesterday as I sat watching TV and waiting for the Siberian Death Cold(tm)
>to go away, I caught one of my favorite movies.. _Tremors_
>
>for those who haven't seen it, it concerns a small town in the middle of a
>no where desert in Nevada being attacked by powerful burrowing creatures
>that are attracted to vibrations.
>
>As I watched, a plot began to form.. the party hits a low tech, low pop
>world, and is asked to ferry an official in their air/raft to check on a
>settlement that hasn't been heard from for over a week.  Once there, the
>party finds buildings destroyed and a single body, who died of thirst, on a
>roof-top..  the first thing the critters will eat will be the party's
>air/raft.
>
>Just goes to show that plot and world hooks are everywhere.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
>http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TML Great Old One
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:55:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: batten down the hatches...

>And not just "over there" but also in Hue City, Gettysburg, against the
Nazis,
>Krauts, Confederates, NVA, etc etc.  Paces almost as numerous as those
who've
>died.  We can well debate "over there," too.

Pawns have pawns' opinions.  I was a pawn once, too, but "made the change."
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:09:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, John R. Snead wrote:

> glorifying a sniper for the number of his kills was not viscous or
> hostile, the responses were. 

Man, I _hate_ this viscous flame-fest.  It's so gluey and thick.  It
sticks to everything else on the list.  I mean, the first time you
experience it, it's not so bad, but the constant repetition makes it get
all clotted and syrupy.  Where's Vanna when we need her, to swap an "s"
for an "i"?  (I know, I know, the Templars nabbed her for use in some
unspeakable Barbie instantiation ritual.)

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:14:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

At 12:09 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Man, I _hate_ this viscous flame-fest.  It's so gluey and thick.  It
>sticks to everything else on the list.  I mean, the first time you
>experience it, it's not so bad, but the constant repetition makes it get
>all clotted and syrupy.  Where's Vanna when we need her, to swap an "s"
>for an "i"?  (I know, I know, the Templars nabbed her for use in some
>unspeakable Barbie instantiation ritual.)
>
>Kenji

MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:	

Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
allowed freedom.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:17:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

On 26 Feb, Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
> Actually, isn't that four -hardpoints-?  As in you can arm it if you want
> to, but the stock config isn't armed?

Perhaps, for each additional scoutship after the Donosev, Douglas gives
it a dual fusion gun turret or something.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:28:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

On 26 Feb, Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

> >Rob Prior writes:
> >
> >For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
> >intercourse, in a rather crude manner 

> You mean, like in England ?
> :-)

> "Roger the Cabin Boy !"

It's an urban legend, I tell you!

If you check the tapes, you will find it was "Tom the Cabin Boy"
and there wasn't anyone called "Seaman Staines" either. :-)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:14:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Lifting Off

On 27 Feb, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote:
> >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:03:00
> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> >Subject: Re: Lifting off
> >
> >In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
> >atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
> >drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
> >

> No need to get fancy. Top atmospheric speed is a function of drag,
> which in turn depends on atmospheric pressure. Top atmospheric speeds
> are usually based on 1 atm; as the ship climbs, the atmospheric
> pressure drops and the top speed increases. At the level of accuracy
> of a handwave (i.e., I haven't done the math), this should be
> sufficient to allow them to fly into orbit. Ultimately, drag is
> no longer a factor and you're using acceleration and space
> maneuvering statistics instead.

Another point is that a Traveller ship doesn't need to reach escape 
velocity.

Escape velocity just means that if you turn off the engines, you won't
fall back to the planet. But a Traveller ship has engines that run
for weeks at 1G, so it can match the surface gravity, provide a little
more thrust and achieve a low orbit after an hour or two if required.
Except that, technically, it's not orbitting, it's hoverring.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:27:01 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

>Here's another question for the TML'ers out there for "First In".  Is there
>a canon COLOR listed for Scout ships?  I've always used a tan with white
>piping, but I was wondering if there was anything "official" out there.

IMTU military and exploration craft are jet black, to reduce sensor
signature. Commercial craft are covered with markings for access ways,
danger zones, corporate logos, inspection certificates, et al, and resemble
race cars.

The ship silhouettes in Brilliant Lances have all kinds of bold markings;
zebra stripes, chevrons, color-coded modules.

IIRC, the Starship Operator's Manual (only half-canon) says that most ships
have chamelion surfaces and look like whatever they want.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:25:02 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Viscous Flame-Fests (was: Re: Moral Umbrage...)

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Man, I _hate_ this viscous flame-fest.  It's so gluey and thick.  It
> sticks to everything else on the list.  I mean, the first time you
> experience it, it's not so bad, but the constant repetition makes it get
> all clotted and syrupy.  Where's Vanna when we need her, to swap an "s"
> for an "i"?  (I know, I know, the Templars nabbed her for use in some
> unspeakable Barbie instantiation ritual.)
> 
> Kenji

Actually, "viscous" is fairly accurate.  It's gumming up the works,
people are getting stuck in it and can't let go....

As this flame-fest's viscosity increases, we can expect bandwidth to
slow to a crawl, until nothing TML-related gets through.

ObTrav:  Would there be any use for a compound, the viscosity of which
_increases_ as flame is applied?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:45:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: The Measure of a Man

>Who deserves greater respect, the private
>>who fell on Omaha beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau?
>>Andrew etc.
>      I would feel bad for them and their families.  I would respect the
>private who fell on Omaha beach more.  I respect someone for what they do.
>Unless you tell me the person who died in Dachau was doing something worthy
>of respect I have no reason to feel anything other than pity and certain
>amount of shame the human race can fall to this point. The soldier who died
>on Omaha beach died trying to stop the government who ran Dachau

Pure idiocy!  The quaker died NOT harming people as a conscientious
objector, non-resistor.  Often, NOT doing something IS a valiant action.
Not stealing, not murdering, not raping, not LYING.  These things are more
valiant than "doing my part" for country.  "Doing one's part for country" is
what Duchau a reality.

What makes shooting a man who happens to find himself on the other side of a
border that man drew more valiant than waving at him over said border and
saying, "Good Morning?"  If EVERYONE acted like Quakers and told the
government to go fuck itself when they tried to draft them into a war (where
the Pres had to pull a Pearl Harbor stunt to get the country into it, in the
first place) THERE WOULD BE NO WAR!

NO Private would have to watch his guts gush out on a foreign beach just to
prove his "loyalty" to a country who considers him little more than a number
and a name and sends him to his death under a banner of so-called glory.  NO
Private would have to shove the chosen victim of the day into cramped
quarters with little food.  NO Private would come home thinking his
testicles were bigger just because he did a cowardly politician's dirty work
by offing some equally scared former civilian.  (You continue to measure
your manhood by some men's standards, not realizing that a boy has become a
man when he stops measuring.)

You talk about honor?  I would be honored to be deleted from this collection
of dopes who continue to buy into the "apple pie" propaganda because they're
too afraid to face the fact that they heavily invested their lives in some
very unscrupulous undertakings.

So go ahead and delete me you oh-so-big bad-asses!  A good chunk of you are
empty jar-heads and the few who have engaged in independent thought on this
list wind up having to humbly bow and scrape to the dufus majority.  It is a
sickening spectacle, to watch a man have to cave in to stupidity.

I, for one, am glad that I have the balls to speak my mind without caving
in.

- --"Get what you are doing done more quickly."
Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:59:58 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 3

13. A culture wants to expand, but suffers from one or more of
the following natural obstacles. 1) it doesn't have the
agricultural potential 2) the climate is inhospitable. 3) It
lacks the manpower for large scale construction and engineering
works. 4) There are geographic barriers to surface
transportation. 5) Its TL limits the speed of communication. 6)
It doesn't have easy access to the materials, such as mineral
resources or energy, to manufacture needed equipment, vehicles,
or tools.  (Social obstacles are something else again)

14. The world's topography makes surface transportation and
communication difficult, so that the natural political
subdivisions are city-states, or individual nations. There is a
world government, but it is not very strong; most inhabitants are
more loyal to their own region.

15. Certain cities are frequently fought over by more powerful
rivals. [During one especially turbulent period the city-state of
Nippur in Mesopotamia was conquered 18 times in 24 years. This
level of activity can only be sustained if warfare is not total
and the most highly destructive advanced weaponry is seldom used]

16. A culture puts a great deal of effort into the construction
of grand public buildings and monuments with more symbolic than
practical value. No expense is spared and the absolute highest
quality possible is sought. Rare and expensive materials must be
imported for the latest creation to meet the standard set by the
last one.

17. In some cultures, domestic slavery is still practiced.
Foreign slave trade is forbidden, foreigners cannot be taken as
slaves, and domestic slaves cannot be sold out of the culture.
[Imperial law forbids interstellar slave trade, though I could
see it permitting it on-world under these conditions.]

18. A world's law lavel and government type might be highly
unstable. The UWP government code might switch from balkanized to
charismatic dictator and back at random intervals, depending on
whether the dictator controls a majority of the individual
"nations" or only a plurality. The law level depends on who is in
charge.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #221
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 222



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump training
Re: Color of scout ships
What is this list about?
Re: Smallpox
Honour, Hatred, and Heroes
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #220
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #220
Re: World Hooks
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Familie Spofulam
[Debate] Ridgway 1 (LONG)
OT: Snipers on History Channel
Re: TCS Campaign needs player
PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)
Re: Bradley vs M113
GURPS Space
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Viscous Flame-Fests
Re: Pyramid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:17:03 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Jump training

> >To rephrase it: What is the minimum TL such that you can have Jump 
> >Troops capable of dropping from orbit into an Standard or Dense 
> >atmosphere world with a gravity close to 1 G?
> 
> The Canon Inqusition speaketh:
> 
> Since the Vilani Empire was TL 11, and they have jump units in _Imperium_,
> We would say that around TL 11.

I beg thee, Inquisitor Maximus, what does the Reformed Canon Church 
say about who the jump troopers were? Subject, expendable minor 
races?

TL 11 seems a bit too soon.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:39:35 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> writes:
>IMTU military and exploration craft are jet black, to reduce sensor
>signature. Commercial craft are covered with markings for access ways,
>danger zones, corporate logos, inspection certificates, et al, and
>resemble
>race cars.
>
>The ship silhouettes in Brilliant Lances have all kinds of bold markings;
>zebra stripes, chevrons, color-coded modules.

Yet another flame-fest waiting for resurrection! :-)

I seem to recall someone (Bruce, probably, as resident sensor expert)
pointing out that black paint made no difference at typical starship
combat ranges, and therefore military ships could be any colour they liked
without degrading performance.

I suspect the counters in Brilliant Lances were that way because it made
for a more exciting game. Black counters on a black starmap are really a
pain in the posterior. This is the reason all my Traveller ship miniatures
are painted nice bright colours: because they look better when we're
playing a game.

IMTU, military ships that may _land_ on planets/moons have appropriate
surface camoflage - those for deep space are painted whatever colour I
think looks cool. However, I haven't painted any Imperial Navy ships yet,
so all my military ships are mercenaries and small planetary navies.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:31:52 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: What is this list about?

Is this list about the morality of war? Funny, I thought this was the
TRAVELLER mailing list, for discussion about the TRAVELLER science-fiction
roleplaying game in it's various forms. It's nice that some of you "have the
balls" to stand up for your opinions; can you please do so in PRIVATE
e-mail, OFF this list? I want to read about Traveller, and that's ALL I want
to read about on this list, AND the charter for the list as expressed in the
FAQ SAYS that's what this list is for. So let's get back to it. If we stayed
on topic more, we'd have less problems with both flames and trolls.

Allen

"The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to discussions on all aspects of
Traveller. It exists as a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange
ideas and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller System, and its
universe. This includes discussions on Gurps Traveller, Marc Miller's
Traveller, Traveller The New Era, MegaTraveller and Classic Traveller. This
also includes the background."

(from the TML FAQ. Note the absence of NON-TRAVELLER related topics in the
above.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:01:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> Steven wrote:
>
> > > <snipped>  The Vilani, of course, are supposed not to have
> > > had native diseases.  They were inedible to the bugs of Vland.  Is it possible
> > > that influenza, for instance, was a major factor in the Terran victory over
> > > the ZS?  To me, it seems inevitable.
> > >   --S
>
> So, are we starting the unending Duskir Plague again? Check Vilani &
> Vargr...
>
> Guillem Plasencia wrote:
>
> > But american natives and europeans had been isolated about 5000 or 10000 years only (im
> > not an archaeologist, does anybody know the exact date america was first settled?) and,
>
> Uh? 30,000 B.C.?

The landbridge across the now Bering Straits existed 50,000 years ago.
About 15,000 years ago, the last ice age ended.

The humans that came across the Bering were very slow about moving south.
Recently, archaeological remains of some settlements were found in Peru,
IIRC, that are estimated at about 15,000, substantially earlier than it was
thought there were any humans in the area.


> > although they had no direct contact all these thousands of years, they lived in the same
> > world all these time, and they were somewhat similar before they leaved and settled
> > america (IIRC the firsts settlers were north european or maybe russians across the Bering
> > Strait...i don't know, does anybody?), at least more than Solomani and Vilani between
>
> Asians coming over the Bering Strait.

Graham Hancock has a hypothesis about a different culture going to South
America via Antarctica that is interesting.  In "Footprint of the Gods," he postulates
that there _might_ have been a human culture 15,000 years ago and earlier that
had advanced technology, at least relatively.  The technology wasn't so much.
He postulates that _if_ they existed, they had accurate clocks (necessary to
calculate longitude), mathematics, some method of viewing the terrain
from altitude, and some good masonry skills.

He characterized everything in sufficiently hypothetical terms that its
not insulting to your intellligent.  And he stays away from the "Chariots
of the Gods"-like theories about humans having been seeded by aliens.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:18:57 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Honour, Hatred, and Heroes

My grandfather spent years in the British Army. He fought at Ypres, the
Somme, Greece, Palestine, Ireland... He was nearly killed many times.  He
lost many friends. In the last years of his life he suffered* from
Alzheimers, and spent days 'transported' back to Ireland during the
Troubles. His unit was under fire from someone in a crowd, and they
couldn't return fire because they might hit civilians. More friends died. 

My great aunt was a girl when the Nazis conquered Holland. She joined a
Resistance cell that hid fugitives and spirited them away. She was
captured, and sent to Ravensbruk where she was used as an experimental
medical subject.  

My grandfather killed. My great aunt didn't. 

Neither of them, however, hated. 

Maybe they once hated, and forgave; maybe they always understood, and
forgave. I didn't ask when I was young, and I wish I had, and now I never
can.  

They are my heroes. Not for honour, not for glory, but because they risked
everything on the courage of their convictions. 


ObTrav: There are many heroes in Traveller, if you are looking for deeds
of valor. Where are the quieter heroes? The Ghandis, the Bethunes? Those
with the courage of their convictions?

Can we leave off the flame-fest, please? Instead of a heated reply, take
the time to write a Traveller hero instead. Someone you would be honoured
to meet, proud to call a friend. Give them human weaknesses, personality
quirks... make them _real_. Then post them. 


* I use the word deliberately, for he was suffering.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:31:21 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #220

> Question on aerodynamics:
> 
> What does air pressure do to drag, and hence max speed in atmosphere?
> Is it linear - i.e. double the air pressure double the drag ? or what?

A simple formula for drag is:

D = Cd x 1/2 x rho x V^2

Where:
D is the drag force
Cd is the drag coefficient, a vaguely constant number given by the
spacecraft geometry
rho is the atmospheric density
V is the spacecraft speed

Thus, doubling the air /density/ more or less doubles the drag.  If the
temperature is the same, then this is equivalent to doubling the
/pressure/.

Note, however, that the stratosphere is significantly colder than the
troposphere (where we are).  At high altitudes, while the pressure is a
good deal less than at the surface the reduced temperature means that
the density is not as low as you might think.

Finally, any time that shocks or flow separation are involved this
formula is likely to be pretty badly wrong.

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:33:07 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #220

> Question on aerodynamics:
> 
> What does air pressure do to drag, and hence max speed in atmosphere?
> Is it linear - i.e. double the air pressure double the drag ? or what?

A simple formula for drag is:

D = Cd x 1/2 x rho x V^2

Where:
D is the drag force
Cd is the drag coefficient, a vaguely constant number given by the
spacecraft geometry
rho is the atmospheric density
V is the spacecraft speed

Thus, doubling the air /density/ more or less doubles the drag.  If the
temperature is the same, then this is equivalent to doubling the
/pressure/.

Note, however, that the stratosphere is significantly colder than the
troposphere (where we are).  At high altitudes, while the pressure is a
good deal less than at the surface the reduced temperature means that
the density is not as low as you might think.

Finally, any time that shocks or flow separation are involved this
formula is likely to be pretty badly wrong.

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:43:37 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

>Yesterday as I sat watching TV and waiting for the Siberian Death Cold(tm)
>to go away, I caught one of my favorite movies.. _Tremors_

[snip]

>Just goes to show that plot and world hooks are everywhere.

Already been done in "Artifacts Unearthed" in JTAS #26. One of the better
IG adventures.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:43:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> We are told that the minor races were transplanted about 400,000
> years ago, correct?  Given anthropology's current thought, just
> what sub-species of hominids got transplanted?  Surely not homo
> sapiens sapiens! We didn't exist yet! ;->

Well, we-the-species did, but not we-the-subspecies.  For whatever that's
worth.  

Also, ISTR that the official period of Ancient meddling was -300,000 to
- -290,000 -- a little more recent.

<snip>
> Isn't it likely that the transplanted homonids would be markedly
> dissimilar in many ways, both obvious and internal? 

Yes, I think so.  This has come up a lot for me in the question of
languages -- obviously Vilani, Zhodani et al. are more isolated from
Terran languages than _any_ known or suspected Terran languages amongst
themselves; but more fundamentally, there's considerable debate &
uncertainty about whether humans even had the capacity for "language" that
far back.  If you believe they didn't, then it gets very hard to explain
how the human diaspora subspecies happened to develop exactly in parallel
with Terran humans in the matter of language.

Separate quibble of long standing:  Given the long separation of the
Ancient-transplanted humans from the Terran ones, why the heck are we
still stuck with the terminology of "races"?  Even if we assume they're
all derived from Homo sapiens, it's harder to justify claiming they're all
Homo sapiens sapiens.  

> Isn't it even likely that some of these sub-species will not be 
> inter-fertile with each other or modern Solomani?

There's some Ancient-meddled human species trailing of the 3I who were
designed to be non-interfertile, but I forget their name and publication
source.

And then, of course -- if you believe they were actually created by the
Ancients -- there's the Sayat :)  Though, y'know, they believe that
they're the original human species and that all the others were
contaminated by fiendish bat-winged ALIEN SEX FIENDS.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Familie Spofulam

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> Is there a FS family tree somewhere?
> 
> Its time the Familie had its own website.

Well, I've got some of the posts to the TML from back in FS's heyday that
I could put up -- but it's not much, and it wouldn't be cool unless Rod
gave his blessings to it.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:49:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [Debate] Ridgway 1 (LONG)

At What Price Gallatin's Vision?

"Ridgway"

I shall approach Gallatin's polemic from a different perspective than
most of those who have responded.  My question, at this point, is not,
"Are these changes desirable?"  I ask, rather, "Are these changes worth
the costs:  material, military, and moral?"

MATERIAL

Unless I have misread the recent polemic, Gallatin proposes that the
Imperium should focus attention (and thus resources) to "be more
responsive to the needs and desires of [Member] Worlds."  I have a
simple question:  From where will the Imperial government obtain the
resources required to effect such sweeping changes?  After all, "the
Imperium", as such, produces no wealth.  All wealth is produced by the
various Member Worlds.  A portion of the wealth generated by Member
Worlds is siphoned off, through taxation, to support Imperial
activities.  Under the status quo, those activities are largely limited
to military, diplomatic, and intelligence activities.  This is due to
the current policy of focusing Imperial attention on maintaining control
of the space between the stars, and this policy's logical extension of
preventing hostile powers from controlling the space between Imperial
Member Worlds.

Gallatin, on the other hand, would devote further resources to meeting
the perceived needs of Imperial Member Worlds, for without Credits in
hand, the Imperial government can offer neither incentives for change,
nor assistance, nor threats.  These resources would have to be drawn
from the very same Member Worlds that Gallatin would have the Imperium
aid.  What benefit would accrue to worlds that would see their wealth
drained away by taxation, only to have a portion of that wealth returned
in Imperial "assistance"?  Admittedly, some worlds would benefit:  those
worlds which produce so little that there is no wealth to confiscate. 
Make no mistake, gentlebeings.  Taxation _is_ the confiscation of
wealth.  It is a drag on the further generation of wealth.  The
inevitable friction of wealth transfers means that we would hamstring
producer worlds, while failing to provide the equivalent in benefits to
non-producer worlds.  There is one more class of citizens that would
benefit from such a change of policy: the Imperial bureaucracy.  After
all, _someone_ would have to oversee the implementation of these
changes.  _Someone_ would have to decide which worlds will have their
wealth drained, and which worlds shall be the recipients of unearned
largesse.  The end result of such a policy will be to discourage
economic growth, in favor of economic stagnation.

MILITARY

Gallatin asserts, almost in passing, that the restructuring of Member
Worlds' governments would be implemented "by force if necessary."  This
raises three questions:  First, from where will the forces needed to
compel Imperial Worlds to change their governments be drawn?  Second,
how will the Imperium _pay_ for the employment of Imperial forces
against Imperial Member Worlds?  Third, what effect will employment
against Imperial Member Worlds have on the morale and combat readiness
of Imperial forces?

Currently, Imperial forces are sufficient to fight on our various
frontiers, with reinforcement from central sectors.  Would this remain
the case, when Imperial forces are sent to wage war upon Imperial Member
Worlds?  Would those who wield power in the so-called Solomani
Confederation fail to notice that Imperial forces in the Solomani Rim
sector were being diverted from their primary task, halting the spread
of the Solomani Movement, to overthrowing "unresponsive" governments on
Imperial Member Worlds?  Would the Sword Worlders forego the chance to
regain worlds that, prior to the Fifth Frontier War, were member worlds
of the Sword World Confederation?  Within my career, there have been two
wars fought in the Spinward Marches.  With a portion of Imperial forces
occupied with the task of "restructuring" the governments of some
Imperial Member Worlds, the temptation surely would be greater for a new
Outworld Coalition to strike.

Combat operations cost money.  Money for munitions, money to support
troops and ships in a field environment, money to repair and replace
damaged or destroyed equipment, money to train a pool of personnel to
replace casualties.  From where will the Imperium get this money?  I
have already addressed some of the problems that would arise from
increasing taxation.  To this I will only add that "unresponsive"
governments, in need of "restructuring", are unlikely to send in taxes
for the purpose of financing their "restructuring."

Far more damaging than the monetary cost of "restructuring" expeditions
is the toll that these expeditions would take on the morale and combat
readiness of Imperial forces.  The increased OPTEMPO would take its
toll, physically and mentally, on the troops.  Replacement of personnel
and materiel would be harder under field conditions.  In the event of a
major war, forces would be out of position, tied down in combat against
the governments of Imperial Member Worlds.  Most of all, the very act of
waging war against Imperial Member Worlds would deeply distress many
officers and men.  Those of us serve or have served in the armed forces
of the Imperium have chosen to do so to defend the Imperium.  Invading
Imperial Member Worlds, to "restructure" their governments in accordance
with a "New Order", scarcely qualifies as defending the Imperium. 
Additionally, Imperial forces draw their members from numerous Member
Worlds.  Imagine the effects on morale and unit cohesion when personnel
from a given Imperial Member World are serving in a unit that is ordered
to "restructure" that Imperial Member World's government, by force.  We
would be asking our troops to wage war upon their homes.

MORAL

The Imperium maintains a moral superiority over its chief human rival
states.  In the so-called Solomani Confederation, thought police (in the
Orwellian sense) ruthlessly enforce a rigid political orthodoxy.  The
Zhodani Consulate employs a _literal_ Thought Police, using psionic
powers to ensure that the populace _thinks_ correctly.  Our Imperium, on
the other hand, allows individual sophonts, and indeed entire cultures,
to exist as they see fit, subject only to the minimal restrictions
contained in the Warrant of Restoration.  Gallatin, however, would have
us abandon this moral high ground, and break the social contract that
exists between the Imperium and its Member Worlds.  I would ask
Gallatin, what of those worlds, such as various worlds in the Solomani
Rim, that are under Imperial military rule?  Will you apply your same
criteria of "responsiveness" to them?  I am sure that the Solomani
Movement party officials are asking the same question.

As it has become popular to quote from ancient Terran entertainment vids
during this debate, I shall do so here.  In this vid, a representative
of an altogether more malevolent Empire than our own places additional
conditions on an agreement already reached with the head of a mining
colony.  When the head of the colony objects, the Imperial
representative states, "I am altering the bargain.  Pray I do not alter
it further."

Is this the path we want our Imperium to follow?
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:57:31 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: OT: Snipers on History Channel

Not trying to extend the flame-fest, but I found it interesting, in
light of the current flamewar, that the History Channel just aired a
"Suicied Missions" episode about snipers.  (I only saw the closing
credits, so I don't know what they said, good or bad.)

Are the folks at the History Channel monitoring the TML?  ;-)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:58:22 EST
From: Thendal@aol.com
Subject: Re: TCS Campaign needs player

Is this a pbem game?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 14:10:43 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)

On 02/28/99 at 04:40 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:

>> I do the same thing. In PBEM's I do *all* the rolling. FTF, I do most of the routine stuff and the players stay in
>> character. For combat and at "crunch time" the players roll.

>For PBEMs there is no alternative, right? How do players roll in a 
>PB-E-M??? 

Carlos, there are several techniques you can use allowing the
players *some* influence in "die rolling" even in a PBEM.  The
examples I post below are all for a 2d6 roll..

1.  The player sends a pointer to a *future* number that they can't
    influence, and the GM converts that number when it becomes
    current into the appropriate range.  This is the old "postal
    game technique" and works, although slowly.
    
    a.  Temperature of a particular city:  
    
        Atlanta, US, 1999/03/03  
        
        High 63f   63 mod 6 = 3+1 = 4 
        Low  37f   37 mod 6 = 1+1 = 2  roll 6

    b.  High/Low price of a stock:
    
        IBM, 1999/03/03

        High 173   173 mod 6 = 5+1 = 6
        Low  171   171 mod 6 = 3+1 = 4  roll 10
        
2.  The player sends a number for each die and the GM uses that as
    the base for a calculation of a random number within the proper
    range.  It should not matter *how* the player chooses his
    numbers, but he does get a chance to influence the eventual
    "roll."  Here the GM is generating the random number, in
    reality, but the players "feel" that they influence the result
    (and if they are psionic perhaps they do ;).
    
    a.  The player rolls a 1d6 (4,2) twice and sends them.  The GM
        rolls a 1d6 twice (3,6) and adds them to the player's
        numbers, then performs division on the totals, reserving the
        remainders.
        
        4+3 = 7 mod 6 = 1+1 = 2
        2+6 = 8 mod 6 = 2+1 = 3  roll 5
        
   b.  The player picks two numbers (17,11) and sends them.  The GM
       performs as in <a> (4,5).
       
       17+4 = 21 mod 6 = 3+1 = 4
       11+5 = 16 mod 6 = 4+1 = 5  roll 9
       
3.  Use an Authenticated Dice Server.  The player uses the server to
    roll the dice and mail the results to the GM.  For information
    on such a server go to http://www.pbm.com/dice or send a post to
    dice@pbm.com with the subject help.
    
    a.  Sample use of the PBM server follows.  I've found the
        pbm.com server to be fast and reliable.  This is the body of
        a sample post...
               
        #P eris@pcola.gulf.net
        #P Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at
        #C Copies sent to the above addresses
        #S 6
        #C Roll 6 sided dice
        #D 2
        #C Roll 2 of them
        #R 1
        #C Roll them 1 time
        #L 1
        #C Display the results on 1 line        
        #T Test Use of Dice Server
        #C Entitle the post "Test Use of Dice Server"

    b.  I know there are other servers that do this, but I haven't
        used them extensively, so I'd rather not comment on them.
        
Personally, as GM, I still prefer to do the rolling and let the
players concentrate on roleplaying, but these techniques *do* work.

Eris    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:01:20 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< MPAT looked to me (on the noddy diagram I saw) like a smart-fused HEAT.
> As you say, if you're trying to plink helos with a tank cannon then
> something is already badly wrong. >>
>
>My friend was an M60 platoon CO in the late 70's and they practiced killing
>helo's with the main gun then...Sometimes the bad guys surprise you without
>the fast movers, or AAA/SAM's around to do the job for you. Besides he was
>trained to kill the "funny looking" tanks first (CO tanks, AA tanks, CE tanks,
>etc.). If we do that; why can't the bad guys do that too?

The chances of killing a helo without a sensor-fused round (not to
mention a fire-control system designed around a 200 knot target rather
than a 30mph one) are slight. Isn't that what the M-2 on top was for?

ObTrav: Why do so few traveller armoured vehicles carry a single main
weapon? A modern tank carries a main gun, two mmgs and an hmg.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:21:09 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: GURPS Space

Hi, maybe one of the GURPS experts can clarify the following for me ...

I currently have GURPS Space 2nd Ed. I think there's a third edition? If so,
what's in it that's new?

Thanks in advance ... now back to your regular program of flamethrowing.

- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:27:21 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

Clif wrote:
> 
> I've got a transcript he gave me:
> 
<<snips description of torture session>>

Clif:

Only amateurs torture enemy prisoners of war (EPW) for information.  And
I am a professional.

Let's put it this way.  I ask you a question.  You answer, "I don't
know."  I don't believe you.  I attach a TA-312 field phone to you
(where one might attach a field phone to a person is left as an exercise
for the student), and crank.  Then, I repeat the question.  Sooner or
later, you _will_ tell me whatever it is that gets me to stop cranking
the TA-312.

Now, can I believe what you told me?  Obviously not.

Besides, over 90% of EPW answer all questions truthfully, and to the
best of their ability, just for the asking.  (In the hundred or so
interrogations I did in Panama and the Gulf, only one EPW even _tried_
to avoid answering my questions.)

That's why US Army interrogators don't torture EPW...for information.
>;-)

ObTrav:  Field interrogations are even easier for Zhos....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:35:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Viscous Flame-Fests

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Viscous Flame-Fests (was: Re: Moral Umbrage...)
...
>ObTrav:  Would there be any use for a compound, the viscosity of which
>_increases_ as flame is applied?

  If it had the right properties it might make a decent fire-fighting compound,
as you could at least hose it on semi-liquid; this would be greatly helped if it
were chemically sensitive to flame rather than just heat-activated :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:41:42 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

At 01:22 PM 2/26/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>>> >Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.
>>>
>>> Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.
>>>
>>> Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)
>>>
>>> Guess I should enquire...
>>
>>$15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
>>But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
>>$16.41 CA = $15 US
>
>Guess I should have been specific. That _was_ $16.41 US. (OK, maybe it was
>$16.42, but definately sixteen and change.)
>
>This makes it about $24 Canadian, but with the unfavourable exchange rate
>charged by VISA it set me back a bit more. I'll judge whether it's been
>worth it next spring, based on how many GURPS Traveller items I see.
>
I think it is worth it just for the playtest files alone.  The group I am
playing with has already implemented the certification and licensing from
Far Trader, as well as the trade rules, and its not even due out for
another month.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #222
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 223



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: World Hooks 3
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
T4 Char Gen ???'s
Vargr Corsair Image.
Buildings Sourcebook?
Tech Levels for T4
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: GURPS Space
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Well said.
Re: GURPS Space
Re: Smallpox
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: GURPS Space
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Buildings Sourcebook?
Zhodani Interrogation
Famille Spofulam
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Re: The Measure of a Man
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning
Re: GT Adventures
Re: color of scout ships
Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: color of scout ships
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #222

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 14:42:37 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: World Hooks 3

On 02/28/99 at 12:59 PM,  Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> said:

>13. A culture wants to expand, but suffers from one or more of the
>following natural obstacles. 1) it doesn't have the agricultural

<snip>

Ok, BITS, you've just got the first 17.  Now, when is _101 Worlds_
going to be released?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:49:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

>Besides, over 90% of EPW answer all questions truthfully, and to the
>best of their ability, just for the asking.  (In the hundred or so
>interrogations I did in Panama and the Gulf, only one EPW even _tried_
>to avoid answering my questions.)
>
Why is that?  Are they not trained like U.S. Troops?  I can't imagine 90% of
U.S. soldiers repeating more than name, rank, and ssn without the threat of
torture.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:53:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: T4 Char Gen ???'s

1)  Are the automatically acquired service skills acquired each term? Or
only on the first term that the character starts THAT career?

2)  Why are there mustering out options for rolls of 7 in careers that do
not allow a rank O-5+  +1?  I'm not speaking of the cash table, where such a
thing would still be possible because of a character's Gambling skill.  I'm
speaking of the other mustering out chart.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:54:37 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Vargr Corsair Image.

Is the image on page 96 of GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1 supposed to be the
Corsair?  If so, how is the cutter supposted to EXIT the ship?  Obviously
the open bay displayed in the image doesn't match the plans.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:57:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Buildings Sourcebook?

Does anyone know of a good resource for Traveller milieu buildings at
different tech levels?  Preferably one with nice architectural drawings that
I can show the players?

I'd use the build.exe program used to create levels for Duke Nukem to walk
the players through, but I don't have time for that!  : )

(Amazing how those games give you an "I've been there!" feeling when you see
a set on a show or a movie that resembles the environment you walked through
in the game.)

- --Clif

P.S.:  Maybe that would be a good GURPS:Trav supplement?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:01:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Tech Levels for T4

Can someone tell me where I can find a good breakdown of the various
technologies found in the different Tech Levels for T4?

Also, has anyone drawn up descriptions for different scores in each of the
attributes?  If so, where?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:49:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

In a message dated 2/28/99 12:25:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
postmark.design@btinternet.com writes:

<< > >For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
 > >intercourse, in a rather crude manner 
 
 > You mean, like in England ?
 > :-)
 
 > "Roger the Cabin Boy !"
 
 It's an urban legend, I tell you!
  >>

	The phrase "I knocked up your sister" also has drastically different meanings
in England and America

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:16:43 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Space

>Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:21:09 +0000
>From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: GURPS Space
>
>I currently have GURPS Space 2nd Ed. I think there's a third edition? If so,
>what's in it that's new?
>

It's in the works, not published yet. David L. Pulver (GT: Alien Races I,
GURPS Vehicles, etc.), who wrote the starship design and space combat
systems for GT, is responsible for revising those sections of G:Space in
line with what he's done for GT. Other than fixing egregious errors
resulting from the advancing state of the art in astronomy, the rest of the
book should remain pretty much the same.

FWIW, there's also a 2d ed of GURPS Special Operations in the works.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:24:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

Actually, the Shuttle has two landing sites: Kennedy SFC and Edwards AFB.
Which they use depends on when they want to come down and what the weather's
like. There are contingency plans to use other sites, which escape me right now.

White Sands is a missle testing range, they don't land there, I think. They
may stop over there, shuttling the shuttle around on their 747 for refit, but
the shuttle itself doesn't land there.

Clayton wrote:
> 
> Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> >
> >     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
> >     White Sands, New Mex?
> >
> IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
> that.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:24:45 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Well said.

"Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net> wrote:

>>Gunny Hathcock is dead.  Regardless of what you thought of him, he was a
>>human being who, at least for one moment, cared more for his companions
>>than he did of himself, and selflessly gave of himself to save them.  For
>>that alone, he should be honored. 

>Amen. I ain't got no quarrel with that, either.  Well said.

Very much agreed.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:13:40 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Space

>I currently have GURPS Space 2nd Ed. I think there's
>a third edition? If so, what's in it that's new?


No, I don't believe there is.  I think there's a third printing of the second
edition, with new cover art.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:43:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

David P. Summers wrote:
>
> Bacteria aren't that specific.  They don't see you as an
> "organism" but as just a bunch of chemicals and bacteria
> are masters of adapting to new chemicals.  There is fairly
> far fetched that the Vilani didn't have an bacteria to contend
> with.

Yes and no. (How's _that_ for a definitive response ;-) Bacteria do see you as
a food source to graze on, but they also have pretty highly specific
environmental requirements. Though they live everywhere life is possible, that
does not mean they are interchangeable. Human pathogens are minicule
proportion of the population of bacteria. Good thing, too, otherwise we'd be
eaten alive.

One thing to remember, though, is that all life on this planet shares a
similar 'handedness', that is, stereoisomers of compounds like amino acids,
etc are all the same stereoisomer. One of the big differences on Vland, was
that the handed-ness of lots (probably all) of such stereoisomers were the
opposite.  You cannot incorporate steroisomer into a protein and expect the
same protein; the reaction sites need to be a very specific shape.

This would definitely inhibit bateria on Vland from getting a start on using
them as hosts.

Of course, this begs the question of what Gramps did with our natural
intestinal flora, which we _need_ to survive, and which are the source of many
of our own pathogens...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:50:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Canonically the Ancients stuck humans all over the Traveller universe
around 300,000 years ago.  This is during the era of archaic Homo Sapiens
(though there is also some evidence that Homo Erectus also existed then). 
Let's assume they took archaic Homo Sapiens. 

At this point, we have two factors operating, natural selection, and (in
some cases) genetic engineering by the Ancients.  Combine those two and
you get all sorts of outcomes.  On some worlds humaniti would likely be
beetle-browed and furry, on others tall hairless and willowy, or possibly
even semi-aquatic.  However, a number of varieties would probably look
pretty much like us.  There would almost certainly be numerous folks with
odd racial characteristics.  I could easily see people with blonde hair,
blue eyes and epicanthic eye folds, or even fire-engine red skin and deep
violet eyes.  Clearly the Vilani look reasonably like earth humans, but
there is no reason to suppose they are typical. 

I like this level of diversity, it makes the Imperium look a whole lot
less like the Star Trek Universe, where everyone (other than one or two
minorities tossed in to allege racial equality) is white.  I'd love to see
more art depicting the vast variations in humanity in the Imperium.  With
all this diversity I would expect many of these varieties to be
cross-fertile, but likely not all of them (especially not the ones who
have undergone significant genetic engineering. 

However, wrt disease resistance, I think things like the flu could easily
infect almost every human species or subspecies out there.  Remember that
these diseases are not simply confined to humans. 

The flu virus can be found in pigs and domestic fowl like chickens and
ducks.  If they can get it, then likely so can any species or subspecies
of humaniti which has not had serious genetic engineering by the Ancients. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:13:26 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Space

Mark Watson said:

>Hi, maybe one of the GURPS experts can clarify the following for me ...
>
>I currently have GURPS Space 2nd Ed. I think there's a third edition? If so,
>what's in it that's new?
>
>Thanks in advance ... now back to your regular program of flamethrowing.


Not as far as I know. I think it merely fixes some of the errata. Check the
SJGames website and see the section on errata for GURPS Space 2nd Ed. and it
should bring you up to speed.

I'm not positive, but I'm reasonably sure this is the case. I have 3rd and
it looks like it's exactly the same (artwork and layout) as 2nd edition.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:19:39 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Actually, the Shuttle has two landing sites: Kennedy SFC and Edwards AFB.
> Which they use depends on when they want to come down and what the weather's
> like. There are contingency plans to use other sites, which escape me right now.
> 
> White Sands is a missle testing range, they don't land there, I think. They
> may stop over there, shuttling the shuttle around on their 747 for refit, but
> the shuttle itself doesn't land there.
> 
They definitely launch unmanned flights from there, though.  (Not the
shuttle, obviously).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:20:59 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

> Canonically the Ancients stuck humans all over the Traveller
> universe around 300,000 years ago.  This is during the era
> of archaic Homo Sapiens (though there is also some evidence
> that Homo Erectus also existed then).  Let's assume they took
> archaic Homo Sapiens.

IMTU several planets have human races derived from Homo
Erectus stock.  While the Gukguk are unable to make many
of the vocalizations commonly found in human languages, their
highly advanced sign language was used in early Human/Hiver
diplomatic missions.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:26:08 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Buildings Sourcebook?

>Does anyone know of a good resource for Traveller milieu buildings at
>different tech levels?  Preferably one with nice architectural drawings
that
>I can show the players?

I would love to see one.
At present I am working on several different floor plans for things like
apartments, offices, etc that I will post sooner or later.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:38:10 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Zhodani Interrogation

Black ICE wrote:

> ObTrav:  Field interrogations are even easier for Zhos....

I imagine Zhodani interrogations have one person asking questions on key
subjects, to bring it forth in the prisoners mind, while one or more
telepaths read the prisoners thought.  If that fails they would bring in
a specialist to mind probe the prisoner.

To counter this the Imperials would give trainning to all personel with
a security clearance on controlling their thoughts.  Maybe even minimal
training to all military personnel BtC.  This might work to a degree
against reading surface thoughts but how would the Imperials try to
counter the mind probes of the Zhodani?

Any thoughts or comments?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:38:15 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Famille Spofulam

>Well, I've got some of the posts to the TML from back in FS's heyday that
>I could put up -- but it's not much, and it wouldn't be cool unless Rod
>gave his blessings to it.
>
> Kenji

On behalf of Darroch, who is no longer on the list but *does* sit down to
play every second Saturday, post away.  I sent him your recent
Manly-manliness...  ;)  He also mentioned he *might* provide something new
for me to send by/around Tuesday, but this isn't gospel.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:45:14 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

>From: KenRoney@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
>
>As to there being a need for a large Imperial investment in transport
capacity
>to haul all of these units around, all that I can say is that you are
correct,
>it would be expensive.  However, it also has been done.  Again, referring
back
>to "Fifth Frontier War" I see that the Imperial naval forces include  nine
>Assault Transport squadrons (8 "Imperial", one "colonial") each capable of
>transporting a complete field army with support (c. 600 battalion
>equivelents).  So the empire has seen fit to make the investment.  Transports
>don't get the glory and attention that the capital ships get, but they are an
>important component of the imperial navy nonetheless.

This investment has already been made. All you need to do is militarise all
those Tukera etc Jump-3 and jump-4 freighters.

Makes far more sense than the Imperium building it's own transport assets.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:14:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: The Measure of a Man

Clif <brclif@digital.net> writes:

> Subject: The Measure of a Man
> 
> So go ahead and delete me you oh-so-big bad-asses!  A good chunk of you are
> empty jar-heads and the few who have engaged in independent thought on this
> list wind up having to humbly bow and scrape to the dufus majority.  It is
> a sickening spectacle, to watch a man have to cave in to stupidity.

That's what I just *love* about you, Clif.  While others "cave in"
to stupidity, you rush to embrace it like some long, lost lover.

> I, for one, am glad that I have the balls to speak my mind without
> caving in.

Well, now we all know what it's like to speak from one's balls, rather
than one's brains...  Thanks for the education.

Folks, I'm going to apologize in advance to the rest of you (sit down,
Clif. You don't get any.) for this blatantly ad homien attack, but I've
really had it with the little mouth breather.   BTW, if any of you are
interested, you can find out more about "Clif" on his web-site:

    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2602/

I guess if I'd flunked that many different religions, I'd be screwed
up as well.

This is my final post on the subject of Gunny Hathcock and any of the
responses generated by the original post.

ObTrav: What type "militant pacifist" organizations or religious orders
do you suppose are present in the 3I?  Do the Quakers and/or their
descendent offshoots still exist?  Try as I might, I can't find any
references on this subject in *any* version of Trav (CT, MT, IG, et.al.)

        - Mark C.
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:48:19 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

At 09:30 pm 2/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 12:23 pm 2/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> >I second that!!!!  Let's get out the fire extinguishers (or just
>> vent the
>> >place to vacuum :) and get on with the fun stuff of the TML.  We
>> don't want
>> >Ditzie showing up with one of her riot-suppression toys, now do
>> we???
>> 
>> 	All in favor, vote AYEEEEEE!
>
>AYEEEEEE!  
>
>I heartily second that motion!  Ditzie has been absent for far too
long!  

	And I'm just DYING (no pun intended, really) to discover how Ditzie
would "suppress" riots ... giant electrified nets launched over the
crowds by mortar ... microminiaturized flying devices delivering
painful stings (and performing a DNA-ID...) to everyone within a
certain radius ... building-sized infrasonic emitters ... tectonic
devices inducing small, localized earthquakes ... it boggles the mind!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:55:54 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

At 12:58 am 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote:
>BTW, I got hit with a backorder from SJG when I ordered one of the
>BITS books.  They'd sold out and the reorder hadn't come in yet.
>This isn't a complaint, it's a congratulation. 

	Probably my fault. I ordered one of each, and they sent me one of
each ... twice. I finally got around to mailing the extras back
Friday; sorry for the delay.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:10:00 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

At 02:41 pm 2/27/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I remember seeing a painting guide at David Golden's site, but it
appears
>not to be there anymore, at least useing the link off of Hyphen's
page.  

	*AArrgh!*  It's on it's way, honest. I'm on the road three weeks out
of the month, so I haven't been able to re-upload the whole site
(which is what's necessary).

	I don't recall a canon "standard" color for scouts; I've always
thought of them as white with IISS starburst, plus assorted colorful
"Danger: Laser"  "Danger: Active EMS"  "Danger: Radiation Hazard"
"No Step"   "Rescue Here"  "Unleaded Fuel Only 89 Octane or Better"
etc labels.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:21:34 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Lifting off (how it applies to GT)

At 02:09 pm 2/28/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Question on aerodynamics:
>
>What does air pressure do to drag, and hence max speed in
atmosphere?
>Is it linear - i.e. double the air pressure double the drag ? or
what?

	Drag is linear with air density (rho), and goes as the square of the
airspeed (v).

	IIRC, density and pressure are linearly related for an ideal gas ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:30:20 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> >From: KenRoney@aol.com
<<snip>>

> >So the empire has seen fit to make the investment [in transports].  Transports
> >don't get the glory and attention that the capital ships get, but they are an
> >important component of the imperial navy nonetheless.
> 
> This investment has already been made. All you need to do is militarise all
> those Tukera etc Jump-3 and jump-4 freighters.
> 
> Makes far more sense than the Imperium building it's own transport assets.
> 
The primary exception would be for drop ships.  These ships have unique
parameters, unless one can construct modular capsule launchers, designed
to match up with a cargo hatch.  (Even there, though, I would want a
drop ship to be capable of at least 3G acceleration.)

> Ian Whitchurch

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:28:08 +0000
From: dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

At 15:38 28/02/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Black ICE wrote:
>
>> ObTrav:  Field interrogations are even easier for Zhos....

Well, the hatred of psionics would likely be a surface thought of
many imperials captured by the Zhodanis.

Also the 1,2,3,4 routing repeated would give boring surface info
for any telepathy baring the mind probe.

In addition, the level of social contamination that the mind probing
Zhodani would have to deal with should they investigate the inner
workings of a imperial mind would likely leave them with a series
of distracting and untasteful thoughts.




Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:35:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
>         I don't recall a canon "standard" color for scouts; I've always
> thought of them as white with IISS starburst, plus assorted colorful
> "Danger: Laser"  "Danger: Active EMS"  "Danger: Radiation Hazard"
> "No Step"   "Rescue Here"  "Unleaded Fuel Only 89 Octane or Better"
> etc labels.

One label you would be unlikely to see is "Front Toward Enemy."  ;-)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:28:27 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

At 07:16 am 2/28/99, you wrote:
>Over in alt.folklore.military we're having an interesting discussion about
>nuclear weapons storage.  In case you've never been near special weapons
>storage areas, the guards have carte blanche to use deadly force. That's
>how these depots would be guarded.  Cross the line and they will shot to kill.

	Unlike that asinine movie with Travolta, nobody's worried about
shooting guns at the nuclear weapons; they'll be all right. And there
are no hostages ... ever.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:40:27 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #222

I am sorry Allen, but I will assume that you are grognard enough to have
heard of the "Imperial Rules of War"? If not, please read them; despite
everyone's self-rightous bs, this actually really is what the various
argumenst about Trav and the local culture are _really_ about...

And if you cant understand that, please don't waste my email time...

William
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:31:52 -0500
> From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
> Subject: What is this list about?
> 
> Is this list about the morality of war? Funny, I thought this was the
> TRAVELLER mailing list, for discussion about the TRAVELLER science-fiction
> roleplaying game in it's various forms. It's nice that some of you "have the
> balls" to stand up for your opinions; can you please do so in PRIVATE
> e-mail, OFF this list? I want to read about Traveller, and that's ALL I want
> to read about on this list, AND the charter for the list as expressed in the
> FAQ SAYS that's what this list is for. So let's get back to it. If we stayed
> on topic more, we'd have less problems with both flames and trolls.
> 
> Allen
> 
> "The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to discussions on all aspects of
> Traveller. It exists as a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange
> ideas and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller System, and its
> universe. This includes discussions on Gurps Traveller, Marc Miller's
> Traveller, Traveller The New Era, MegaTraveller and Classic Traveller. This
> also includes the background."
> 
> (from the TML FAQ. Note the absence of NON-TRAVELLER related topics in the
> above.)
> 
> ------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #223
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 224



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Re: color of scout ships
Re: color of scout ships
Re: color of scout ships
(debate) Solomani Sam resp Re: Natliatl
Re: The Measure of a Man
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: World Hooks
World Hooks 4
Re: World Hooks
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #223
[Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Imperial Religion
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Clif and other such things - 
Miscellaneous T4 Questions
The Measure of a Man
Re: Buildings Sourcebook?
Re: GURPS Space
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:39:21 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

>In addition, the level of social contamination that the mind probing
>Zhodani would have to deal with should they investigate the inner
>workings of a imperial mind would likely leave them with a series
>of distracting and untasteful thoughts.

Lets remember the Kzin telepaths in the "Known Space" stories.
They loathed reading human "grass eaters" minds.
Some of the things they found there really made their jobs diffcult or
impossible.
Same thing might apply to the Zho's.
Imagine trying to read a Vilani's mind and getting some really horrible
images of eating your Uncle Duke :)
Things are never as easy as you think.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett


>In addition, the level of social contamination that the mind probing
>Zhodani would have to deal with should they investigate the inner
>workings of a imperial mind would likely leave them with a series
>of distracting and untasteful thoughts.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:41:15 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

- ->This investment has already been made. All you need to do is militarize
all
>those Tukera etc Jump-3 and jump-4 freighters.
>
>Makes far more sense than the Imperium building it's own transport assets.
>

Don't most modern governments have the same type of plans?
Rather than the US buying/building several hundred 747's or such, don't they
have the ability to charter/militarize planes for transport?

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:42:31 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

That's what's all over the Marava:  access, stand clear of door, no step,
not a handhold, danger, etc.  The only weird one I did was "Abandon hope all
yea who enter here" over the airlock door :)

Thanks for everyone's input!!  What I've ended up doing is a darker (than my
previous scout) tan/khaki body with some white stripes and highlighting.
Blood red sunburst and IISS initials on the side ala WBH's illo.  I didn't
want to do one of the logos listed in the "First In" playtest 'cause I don't
know if there's going to be any shown in the book.  Wouldn't want my art to
conflict :)

Jesse



> I don't recall a canon "standard" color for scouts; I've always
>thought of them as white with IISS starburst, plus assorted colorful
>"Danger: Laser"  "Danger: Active EMS"  "Danger: Radiation Hazard"
>"No Step"   "Rescue Here"  "Unleaded Fuel Only 89 Octane or Better"
>etc labels.
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
>
>  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and
>   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the
>   universe is."--Albert Einstein
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:43:12 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

Perhaps first contact ships are painted bright white with warnings,
greetings, dirty pictures etc.

But what if you want to scout the locals out stealthily?
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:44:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

Crap!  Forgot to mention that good pics of the Donosev should be up on my
site later this evening.  It's 3:44pm PST right now and I'm nearly done with
her.  Should be about three hours or so.

Jesse

>That's what's all over the Marava:  access, stand clear of door, no step,
>not a handhold, danger, etc.  The only weird one I did was "Abandon hope
all
>yea who enter here" over the airlock door :)
>
>Thanks for everyone's input!!  What I've ended up doing is a darker (than
my
>previous scout) tan/khaki body with some white stripes and highlighting.
>Blood red sunburst and IISS initials on the side ala WBH's illo.  I didn't
>want to do one of the logos listed in the "First In" playtest 'cause I
don't
>know if there's going to be any shown in the book.  Wouldn't want my art to
>conflict :)
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>> I don't recall a canon "standard" color for scouts; I've always
>>thought of them as white with IISS starburst, plus assorted colorful
>>"Danger: Laser"  "Danger: Active EMS"  "Danger: Radiation Hazard"
>>"No Step"   "Rescue Here"  "Unleaded Fuel Only 89 Octane or Better"
>>etc labels.
>>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>>   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
>>
>>  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and
>>   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the
>>   universe is."--Albert Einstein
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:53:50 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: (debate) Solomani Sam resp Re: Natliatl

In a message dated 2/27/99 11:59:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
phocks@goodnet.com writes:

<< The key point is tha only at the
 lowest possible level are representatives elected by the electorate.  In
 essence, our government is a hierarchy of councils, each elected by the
 council under it, from the members of that council, all the way to the
 Supreme Council.  We have the best of both worlds.  While a good politician
 may be able to have him or herself elected to the local council, it becomes
 progressively more difficult to move up the chain on charisma alone.  >>


Ah; this is perhaps what I've been trying to articulate. Here's a way for an
elected representative democracy to work at the local level (where the blatant
dictatorships operate and which my collegues poo-poo as an insignificant
problem; I guess they would change their minds if they lived under one as a
peon...), and yet not become unworkable and unwieldy as my colleuges maintain.

This would work nicely. Each planet elects two councils/congresses. Note that
the pool of citizens eligible to vote would be significantly larger than that
maintained in the Consulate...One council is proportioned based on population,
giving larger planets larger councils, and the advantage. The second council
is identical in size throughout the Imperium, giving the smaller planets the
advantage. These two councils/congresses (whatever you want to call them...)
not only act as planetary legislatures, but vote on representatives for the
subsector congress, who vote for the sector congress reps, who vote for the
domain congress reps,  who vote for the Imperial congress. reps...While this
is not strictly a true representive democracy (it's really more of a
representative republic...); it does have a nice blend of democracy and
workability (assuming the numbers are juggled to keep the legislatures in the
"lower" population houses from getting to large...

Solomani Sam

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:56:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Measure of a Man

Oh look!  Your signature shrank!

- --Clif

>        - Mark C.
>          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
> 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:01:12 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> 
> At 15:38 28/02/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Black ICE wrote:
> >
> >> ObTrav:  Field interrogations are even easier for Zhos....
> 
> Well, the hatred of psionics would likely be a surface thought of
> many imperials captured by the Zhodanis.
> 
> Also the 1,2,3,4 routing repeated would give boring surface info
> for any telepathy baring the mind probe.

Except that the shock of capture usually overcomes normal resistance-to-
interrogation techniques, at least on the short-term.

Consider that, when one is captured, the second worst thing that can
happen to you on the battlefield has just happened.  (The worst thing is
the one that ends with you in a Glad bag.)  The enemy soldiers who have
captured you are shouting at you (in an unknown language), and
communicate with gestures and "Se hablo M-16."  The tie you up,
blindfold and gag you (maybe with 100 mph tape), put you on the back of
a deuce-and-a-half, and bounce you along to a PW collection point.  This
type of treatment continues, until you get to someplace with a trained
interrogator.  The interrogator has you unbound, and speaks to you, in
your own language.  The natural human response to this kind of stress is
to want to talk about what happened.  _That's_ why most EPW "break" on
the direct approach (ask, and ye shall be answered).

If it works without psionics, psionics should make things even easier. 
You might get good results from the "non-Galanglic-speaking" guard,
during EPW transport.  No questions are asked, so the EPW don't realize
they're being "read."  (Surface thoughts, anyway.)

> 
> In addition, the level of social contamination that the mind probing
> Zhodani would have to deal with should they investigate the inner
> workings of a imperial mind would likely leave them with a series
> of distracting and untasteful thoughts.
> 
But trained interrogators are _already_ contaminated, with untasteful
thoughts... >;-)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:03:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In a message dated 2/28/99 5:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, pc@PerkWorks.com
writes:

<< 
 IMTU several planets have human races derived from Homo
 Erectus stock.  While the Gukguk are unable to make many
 of the vocalizations commonly found in human languages, their
 highly advanced sign language was used in early Human/Hiver
 diplomatic missions.
  >>

	And of course, there is an adventure in the T4 book "Missions of State" that
involves Travellers encountering a civilization descended from Neanderthals
transplanted by the Ancients.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:01:58 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In a message dated 2/28/99 4:53:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsnead@netcom.com
writes:

<<   This is during the era of archaic Homo Sapiens
 (though there is also some evidence that Homo Erectus also existed then). 
 Let's assume they took archaic Homo Sapiens. 
  >>

	heck, there is diagreement about whether Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens are
really completely different species or whether the first gradually shades into
the other.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:05:04 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

Doug Berry wrote:

>Just goes to show that plot and world hooks are everywhere.

True, true...but I often have difficulty thinking of a good one
exactly when I need it. 

I could probably get just as many out of the daily newspaper or
science fiction, but a world hook drawn from history has two
advantages over those:

a) A variant of it has already passed the ultimate reality check.
b) It's possible for it to be well outside my usual experience
and stranger than something I am likely to imagine or believe if
I had imagined it. (See also, "truth is sometimes stranger than
fiction", "Most aliens are humans in funny suits", and "Traveller is Yanks
in Space" discussions)
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:05:00 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 4

More world hooks:

19. On a balkanized world, a ruler of a minor nation is taking
advantage of the fact that settlement patterns and technology
have changed over the past century to propel his nation to
prominence. He is well on the way to establishing an effective
world government.

20. A new government has ordered revised versions of history
texts to be used in the schools. Events related to the government
and culture of the current rulers are added or emphasized, while
major events which were interpreted to legitimize the former
government are downplayed and minor ones omitted to make room.
Changes in the arts curriculum are also being proposed.

21. Technological progress in the rural regions of a world is
handicapped because the inhabitants persist in using an old and
cumbersome form of writing that only a few elite can fully
master.

22. A minor alien race remains minor in part because it refuses
to adopt human decimal notation or standards for any of its
technology. All numeric information normally expressed in the decimal
system must be translated into the (superior, of course) duodecimal system.

23. Planetary law explicitly recognizes castes or orders of
society, such as Imperial nobility, planetary nobility, a middle
or gentry class, and a peasant or free servant class. Different
rules and privileges are extended to members of each class, and
many of the relations among them are regulated by law.

24. Planetary law forbids lawyers from arguing a person's case.
Each person must argue his or her own, except in unusual cases of
physical or mental disability. [ Your reactions, Bloo?]
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:05:08 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>> 3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
>> technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world
>> is fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have
>> been using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their
>> beasts for centuries now.

>    So the world is balkanized, but the "countries" do not have
>any territories, but rather "own" and follow large animal flocks
>which are difficult to control (this being the reason for
>nomadism in the first place

     Not so much nations as clans or tribes. TL-7 means you have
options of fencing the animals in, using railway or truck to move
them to market, aircraft to follow them, using miniaturized tags
to identify and locate individuals, coordinate operations by
radio, carrying veterinary or medical kits, and various
possibilities for control. 
     There would probably also be good reasons for not using some
of these options, such as: the animals are necessarily migratory, 
the animals treat humans as predators and show strong,
unpredictable fight-or-flight behavior in their presence.
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:07:46 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

At 05:41 pm 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>->This investment has already been made. All you need to do is
militarize
>all
>>those Tukera etc Jump-3 and jump-4 freighters.
>>
>>Makes far more sense than the Imperium building it's own transport
assets.
>>
>
>Don't most modern governments have the same type of plans?
>Rather than the US buying/building several hundred 747's or such,
don't they
>have the ability to charter/militarize planes for transport?

	Civil Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF). In exchange for a certain amount of
money per month as a "retainer," participating carriers agree to
maintain a certain number of aircraft capable of being converted to
military use. Originally intended as a contingency measure to
maintain capacity to deal with The Big One (i.e. Soviets rolling
through the Fulda Gap). IIRC, it's becoming less and less supported,
as Fed Ex, UPS, United, etc. make much more money using the planes
for their own purposes, and weren't counting on it being actually
used ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:11:54 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #223

More than any other single reason, that _is_ it. our kids are simply
given better propaganda... At least that was the case a few years ago;
the rest really doesn't matter..

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Why is that?  Are they not trained like U.S. Troops?  I can't imagine 90% of
> U.S. soldiers repeating more than name, rank, and ssn without the threat of
> torture.
> 
> - --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:13:46 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

	

	Well, it is heart-warming to see that the Solomani and Zhodani agree on the
best course for the Imperium to take.   Nobles, let's get the Moot to dissolve
the Third Imperium and write that new constitution, since "international
opinion" seems to demand it.

			The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:24:41 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Imperial Religion

Mark Cook Hablo':

    ObTrav: What type "militant pacifist" organizations or religious orders
    do you suppose are present in the 3I?  Do the Quakers and/or their
    descendent offshoots still exist?  Try as I might, I can't find any
    references on this subject in *any* version of Trav (CT, MT, IG, et.al.)

Well, I dunno, but I'll bet the Ine Givar have some rabid degeneration of
some religion steeped in their movement.

In My Traveller Universe, the Emperor is also the Most Holy Patriarch
of the Imperial Christian Church, the state religion and dangerous
political lever.  Suffice it to say that religion and politics thoroughly
intertwined can produce plenty of adventures.  The closer to the throne
the officials are, the more they are expected to respect or even submit
to the Imperial Church.  At the same time, secular officers are rampant,
so respect is usually all the church gets.  Which is fine, I don't really go
for Inquisitions, so for the most part it's a pretty tolerant/liberal
organization, with devotees as well as heretics.  Think of it as something
like the Anglican or Orthodox church, with the strength of the Old
Catholic church.  And if you know lots of history, then take it all
with a grain of salt please, because I don't know history so well.

IMTU various religious groups exist in pockets, which can be close
or distant to Imperial doctrine.  They're seeded originally from the
homeworlds, and the Imperium doesn't meddle or impede them.
Expect the seeded cultures to have taken their beliefs with them.

Of course, this means crusades can be legal.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:15:34 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

- ----------
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
> Date: Sunday, 28 February, 1999 6:30 PM
> 
> Ian or Katts wrote:
> > 
> > >From: KenRoney@aol.com
> <<snip>>
> 
> > >So the empire has seen fit to make the investment [in transports]. Transports
> > >don't get the glory and attention that the capital ships get, but they are an
> > >important component of the imperial navy nonetheless.
> > 
> > This investment has already been made. All you need to do is militarise all
> > those Tukera etc Jump-3 and jump-4 freighters.
> > 
> > Makes far more sense than the Imperium building it's own transport assets.
> > 
> The primary exception would be for drop ships.  These ships have unique
> parameters, unless one can construct modular capsule launchers, designed
> to match up with a cargo hatch.  (Even there, though, I would want a
> drop ship to be capable of at least 3G acceleration.)
> 
There are still possibilities here, at least in GT.  Far Trader is assuming
that the really large cargo lines are using "Lighter Aboard Ship" (LASH)
cargo carriers -- c.20-kton starships with  dozen or more non-starship
lighters in the 800-ton range -- for at least part of their cargo service. 
It mentions the feasibility of using this kind of ship to carry squadrons
of system defense boats (a 400-ton SDB masses about the same as an 800-ton
lighter).  There's no reason you couldn't also use them to carry a
non-starship assault ship as well.  You still have to buy the landing ship,
but not the jump drive and its associated hull and fuel tankage.  I'd
expect to see a lot of these LASH ships "taken up from trade" in a major
war.

StarMercs has a dedicated assault transport built using  this philosophy.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:25:58 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Clif and other such things - 

Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.
(I have, to my internal satisfaction, answered this - _maybe_ someday
I'll share it ...)

William

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:25:40 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

This is my first posting...(insert plea for sympathy here:)

I've been working on my own TU for a couple of months now, and I've got a
few questions on Ship design doctrines and Rules of Thumb.  (I would
playtest these ideas on my own, but I don't have access to Brilliant Lances,
or any other suitable starship combat system.)  Any help, enlightenment, or
insight would be appreciated.

Using either T4 (which I have) or Brilliant Lances (which I hope to
accquire) and design TL's of 14 or 15:

1.  Can missiles be targeted with beam weapons at greater than short range?
(And if so, is this an effective defense strategy?  Is adding extra MFD's to
allow turrets to fire individually a good idea?)

2.  When turrets are grouped into batteries, why is the damage rating lower
than would be expected if the damage values were simply cumulative?  (Is the
use of MFD's for individual turrets a way to retain higher overall damage
values?)

3.  Are Sandcasters effective defenses in Brilliant Lances, and if so what
are good Rules of Thumb for incorporating them into ship defenses?

4.  What is (are) the damage value(s) of "standard" LasDet missiles in BL?

5.  What are some recommended minimum ratings for Armor, Jump Capability,
and Manuever G's?

I understand that most of the questions fall into the "painfully obvious"
category, but I don't have the materials or local gamers to determine the
answers on my own.

Thanks in advance,

Thad Sneed
(Watch this space for a really lame sig file)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:27:11 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: The Measure of a Man

>Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:45:02 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: The Measure of a Man
>>Who deserves greater respect, the private
>>>who fell on Omaha beach or the quaker who perished in Dachau?
>>>Andrew etc.
>>      I would feel bad for them and their families.  I would respect the
>>private who fell on Omaha beach more.  I respect someone for what they do.
>>Unless you tell me the person who died in Dachau was doing something worthy
>>of respect I have no reason to feel anything other than pity and certain
>>amount of shame the human race can fall to this point. The soldier who died
>>on Omaha beach died trying to stop the government who ran Dachau
>
>Pure idiocy!  The quaker died NOT harming people as a conscientious
>objector, non-resistor.  Often, NOT doing something IS a valiant action.
>Not stealing, not murdering, not raping, not LYING.  These things are more
>valiant than "doing my part" for country.  "Doing one's part for country" is
>what Duchau a reality.
snip
>Clif

Clif,
	It is NOT idiocy just because someone disagrees with you.  We all have our
own ideas regarding what constitutes honor and proper behavior.  I've had
enough of your flames.  You do not debate or even include an obtrav.  You
insult and belittle people.  I have somewhat belatedly joined the group of
people who ignore your posts.  Can someone punt this person from the list
or make him read only?
										Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:43:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Buildings Sourcebook?

At 03:57 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of a good resource for Traveller milieu buildings at
>different tech levels?  Preferably one with nice architectural drawings that
>I can show the players?

Your best bet is to go to the library and look up back issues of
Architectural Digest.  Not only floor plans, but looks of pictures and
artist conceptions.  Many, many futuristic buildings, along with good
articles on building for climate.

_Sprawl Sites_ for Shadowrun has quite a few standard (or cliched)
locations.. bars, restaurants, etc.,

_Naval Architects Manual_ for T4 was filled with deck plans, but they were
of middling quality.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:47:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Space

At 02:16 PM 2/28/99 -0700, you wrote:

>FWIW, there's also a 2d ed of GURPS Special Operations in the works.

Doug begins the Happy Happy, Joy Joy dance arounf the offcie, scareing the
cat badly.

Woo Hoo!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www/hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:52:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

At 02:27 PM 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote:

>That's why US Army interrogators don't torture EPW...for information.

We do, however, give them MREs to eat.  We captured some Brits during a
NATO excercise.  The almost rioted when they got their rations.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:55:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

At 03:49 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Why is that?  Are they not trained like U.S. Troops?  I can't imagine 90% of
>U.S. soldiers repeating more than name, rank, and ssn without the threat of
>torture.

Because your life is in the hands of these people.

Consider the situation.  Most of your friends are probably dead, you're
cold, exhausted, and completely humiliated.  You've ben treated roughly,
restrained and led around.  Suddenly someone speaking English is asking you
a few simple questions.

Torture only hardened the resolve of prisoners in the Vietnam war.  And
they will just tell you what you want to hear.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #224
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Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 225



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump training
Re: Vargr Corsair Image.
Re: T4 Char Gen ???'s
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Imperial Currency UWP
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine
Re: Clif and other such things - 
Re: Buildings Sourcebook?
Jump Troops: Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Jump training
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: You know who... ;'P
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage
update to Space Dock available
Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Re: Jump training
Star Merc's 
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:03:12
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump training

At 07:17 PM 2/28/99 +0000, you wrote:

>I beg thee, Inquisitor Maximus, what does the Reformed Canon Church 
>say about who the jump troopers were? Subject, expendable minor 
>races?

Probably.  As I think about it, I doubt that drop troops would be a regular
facet of Vilani warfare, not very cost efficient.  I really don't think the
Vilani Army would be much more than a hopped-up police force.  Landing
troops is inefficient.

Imagine a world where Truman responded to the North Korean invasion of the
South with multiple nukes.  That's the Vilani way.  Unless the world is
absolutely vital, a world in rebellion will simply be bombed until it
surrenders.

So, the Vilani jump troops were probably consider suicide troopers.  Penal
Battalions offered amnesty if they survive their three years or whatever.
(Nice bit of chrome for the IW period there).

>TL 11 seems a bit too soon.

I didn't say it was overly efficient.  Picture the difference between the
early Airborne equipment and operations (DC-3s, troops scattered for miles)
to today's equivalent: MC-130s and precision drops.  If the Vilani did
consider drop troops expendable, they wouldn't have bothered to refine the
technique.  All you need is a capsule that can survive reentry with a
trooper on board.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:28:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr Corsair Image.

In a message dated 2/28/99 12:57:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, pc@PerkWorks.com
writes:

<< Is the image on page 96 of GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1 supposed to be the
 Corsair?  If so, how is the cutter supposted to EXIT the ship?  Obviously
 the open bay displayed in the image doesn't match the plans.
  >>

I interpret that the cutter drops out the belly of the ship (the cutter is
sitting on top of the exit doors...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:06:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Char Gen ???'s

At 03:53 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>1)  Are the automatically acquired service skills acquired each term? Or
>only on the first term that the character starts THAT career?

Those skills are acquired upon entry into the service.  Automatic skills
that come with rank are also only acquired once.

>2)  Why are there mustering out options for rolls of 7 in careers that do
>not allow a rank O-5+  +1?

Bad editing.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:11:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

At 06:28 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:

>	Unlike that asinine movie with Travolta, nobody's worried about
>shooting guns at the nuclear weapons; they'll be all right. And there
>are no hostages ... ever.

Heh.  One of the tales told in a.f.m concerned to APs dealing with a drunk
dependant with a knife.  Drunk kid graps one of the APs, puts the knife to
his throat and shouts "I'll do him!"  Other AP comes back with "Cool with
me, I owe him $300."

Kid surrendered.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:36:47 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial Currency UWP

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:01:27 -0500, "Carlos Alos-Ferrer"
<Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote:

>The Universal Currency Indicator (add to Economic Extension in UWP)
>(Preliminary)

>1.... This world uses directly Imperial Credits as currency.

>	Most likely for small worlds, subsector capitals (where the Cr are 
>printed (?)).

>2... This world uses both Imperial Credits and Local Credits (see 3).

>3... This world uses Local Credits, which have a fixed rate of 
>exchange with Imperial Cr. Hence, they are in reality a fractional 
>division of the Imperial Cr.

>	Most likely for large worlds heavily involved in interstellar trade.

>4... This world uses true local currency (see 5), but Imperial 
>Credits are in circulation.

>5... This world uses true local currency, with a variable rate of 
>exchange to the Imperial Credit. Imperial Credits can't be used at 
>the world.

>	Most likely for old, well-developed worlds, e.g. minor racs 
>homeworlds.

>6... This world allows the use of all kinds of currencies.

>	Most likely for free ports.

0 (or 7, your choice)... This world has no currency.  Commerce is
via specie or barter, or other declared valuta.  Most likely in
primitive or medieval cultures.  "Declared valuta" may be
technically a "local currency", e.g., Yap stones or cowrie shells
on some Pacific islands, or actual material goods as with the old
Roman practice of paying soldiers in salt and/or wine.  Freeports
might also accept specie and allow barter in addition to a wide
range of currencies.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:26:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

In a message dated 2/28/99 12:22:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< The chances of killing a helo without a sensor-fused round (not to
 mention a fire-control system designed around a 200 knot target rather
 than a 30mph one) are slight. Isn't that what the M-2 on top was for? >>

Sorry; I should have elaborated further. He meant killing STATIONARY HOVERING
helos. Their reasoning was "I see a copter, and he's firing a missile at me. I
can return fire, and kill him with my main gun bullet, a LOT quicker than his
ATGM missile can get to me...I don't know how this would work with newer
faster missiles, and with helos doing pop up fire and forget shots....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:33:53 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump troops : Army or Marine

	It is possible that the transports in Fifth Frontier War actually represent
"Imperialized" freighters, but I rather doubt it, for two reasons.  
	First, they are described as "Assault Transports", not freghters or simply
transports.  "Assault" implies specialization towards a specific type of
mission.  I envision a typical assault transport as a large vessel, capable of
transporting a complete regiment/brigade, featuring good defensive weaponry,
bombardment missle bays, Cargo holds for the required equipment and
consumables, a gaggle of assault shuttles, and "ortillery" SDBs. Space would
be at a premium, and many of the troopers (probably the enlisted men) would
most likely make jumps in cold sleep.
	Second, Those freighters are good for hauling civilians in comfort, but
pretty inefficient as assault vessels.  They just are not designed to perform
that job.  As an WW2 analogy, think of the Queen Mary.  Yes, it was invaluable
at hauling troops across the Atlantic, but when it came time for any
amphibious assault, it was kept far away.  Civilian liners likewise would make
poor interstellar assault craft, it is far more likely in my opinion that the
Imperium would invest in specialized vessels to perform this vital task.

Ken  
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:40:28 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Clif and other such things - 

At 06:25 pm 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
>important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.

	I don't dislike Clif, I've never met him. Like most other members of
the list, he posts some useful stuff, and starts some useful
discussions. I get annoyed by what I perceive as gratuitous, overly
aggressive and/or offensive responses to other people's posts.
Usually, I just ignore them.

	BTW, I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is. My biggest
fear is that it's going to degenerate IMMEDIATELY into yet another
gratuitous Clif-bashing. Everybody's expressed their opinion fairly
clearly--let's move on.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:56:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Buildings Sourcebook?

Thanks, Doug.  Good Leads.

- --Clif

>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:53:35 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Jump Troops: Army or Marine? (was: Re: Bradley vs M113)

Gary wrote:

>I think that the large majority of Imperial Marines infantry would be jump
>trained.  RCVG says Imperial Marines were mostly organized in regiments, which
>contain three task force headquarters that draw from a pool of 18 companies (9
>lift infantry, 5 meson artillery batteries, two lift cavalry, a grav tank
>company, and a commando company) to divide amongst the three task forces as
>required.  The Imperial Marine Task Force TOE in Striker II is only one
>possible config.

Sure. It'd be worth jump-training all the troops, since even a miserable
little marine detachment on a cruiser could see off a good proportion of
a TL-12/13 force.

>The Imperium maintained a very limited number of permanent divisions.  For the
>Imperial Army, it was probably a limited number of units, probably on the
>regimental scale... maybe a couple per subsector.  The rest conventional
>infantry brought in by landers, etc.

If you've got enough marines to hold a landing ground, the army doesn't
need assault troops.

>Didn't the Airborne units use Sheridans?  Did the M8 AGS ever get produced?
>I've got the data for it (in fact it's the assumption for FM 17-15 Tank
>Platoon), but I don't know much about it and haven't heard of it (and we don't
>cover it in AFVID).

The XM-8 got cancelled. Dumb. Only in SciFi can light infantry hold off
armour.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:00:39 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jump training

Thom Harris wrote:

>I think back to WWII and the assault tactics used throughout the campaign.
>The real Airborne attacks were done by the Armies including glider insertion
>in Europe.  The Marines tended to "Take the beach" in the Pacific campaign
>and not do air insertion.  Almost all Jumps in the Pacific were for
>espionage purposes.  I can't remember how this was done in the Faulklands,
>anybody????

Falklands.

The Marines and the Army went `up the beach' in landing craft.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:49:32 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Gary wrote:

>>      Now it's stupid gamer question time.  What's an MCD?  Thanks.
>
>Missile Countermeasures Device.   Looks kinda like a disco ball.  It sends out
>emissions of some kind that confuse a missiles little brain and make it fly
>somewhere else and blow up.  Or something like that.  It's a one time use
>thing.  Turn it on.  It burns itself out in its usage.  They're hideously
>expensive, and you only get one use, so aside from a picture and a couple
>diagrams, i've never seen one.  Don't want us breaking one, either. ;-)

You mean <gasp> that it's not soldier proof :>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:42:40 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Gary wrote:

>> Hmm. It's got the standard Russian tank problems (duff autoloaders,
>> terrible crew ergonomics). It's also got armour that will deflect a
>> 120mm APFSDS-DU round (Kontact-5); and an anti-missile system to die
>> for.
>
>Maybe, but i'm dubious... the M829A3 is the silver bullet.  If they do survive
>the hit, they're not going to be enjoying life much.   We have an MCD, though
>I won't see one until there's a war.

Yep. Trouble is, the long-rod structure of the sabot round is vulnerable
to side-impact forces - which is exactly what Kontact-5 does to it. The
armour literally shatters the sabot before it penetrates the hull of the
vehicle.

>I'm more talking bout the transmission, engine and speed issues.  Plus the
>guns. We beat them on max eff range.

Hmm at 38-odd ton tank against a 50-something ton tank. You'll need an
awfully good transmission & suspension to make good on the weight issue.
Agreed, reliability of the mechanics is an issue with FSU gear.

And the holders of the longest-range tank kill is?

British Army, Challenger I, HESH.

>> So where do you see the US going for the Bradley replacement? More IFV
>> or back to basics?
>
>The Bradleys biggest plus IMO is that does make a good companion to the
>Abrams. It can keep up in both road march and combat ops, isn't overgunned
>(giving illusions of a "real" anti-tank capability) though it does seem to
>have an identity problem.  
>
>The replacement?  Probably like the Bradley, due to the current budgetary and
>political situation it'll get torn between two competing factions... the IFV
>and APC crowds... and end up somewhere in the middle.  I don't really expect
>replacements anytime soon though i've been hearing alot bout the M1A3
>recently.  Haven't been keeping up w/ the latest hubbub, but have been hearing
>alot bout an autoloaded 155mm w/ a new turret and a fire control system
>supposedly as far above the M1s as the M1s is above the M60s (IVIS, GPS, CITV
>too).  Not that the USMC (and thus me) will see them anytime soon even if the
>army gets them within 10 years.

The US finally gets an autoloader. Hope it works.

>> MPAT looked to me (on the noddy diagram I saw) like a smart-fused HEAT.
>> As you say, if you're trying to plink helos with a tank cannon then
>> something is already badly wrong.
>
>Yeah, but you know SNAFU.  Have to be prepared to adapt and respond.  :-)

Semper Gumby, eh?

>> >Won't be busy long, even w/ T-80s or T-90s, much less T-62s or T-72s.  :-)
>> 
>> Assuming that the next war will be similar to Desert Storm? Dangerous.
>> Vilani thinking, even.
>
>LOL.  nah.  Just being cocky.  ;-)  I ain't that arrogant, though am confident
>I'd be able to plug any tank or 3 up against mine and trust my fellows to do
>the same.

Well, train hard, fight easy. I hope you're right.

>> Tanks versus the enemy recce element isn't fair. Good news for your
>> side, though.
>
>No, it isn't, but it's not really really bout being fair, is it?  :-)

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:05:11 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: You know who... ;'P

Orig this was a private comment to just another memeber of a list I'm
on, this answer of his and what it engendered deserves wider consideration...

This is kinda just one of _those_ aanswers to the list, as well as to
Mark - Because his comment abount the US vow is well worth thinking
about in a Traveller perspective. A few months ago, I suggesteded to the
author of "First In" that the greatest gift the Solomani had for the
Vilani was that _Truth_ about a system was more important than political
considerations and that scouts even "now" would still think of
themselves that way. This is how we have to view "Clif" - Literally and
figurativly... 

OK, soapbox mode is off. 

No, I'll stop now - whatever your response...

William 

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> > No, I don't like him either; but the one thing I just wanna say - isn't
> > that kind of idiot why any soldier takes the vow that we do? The rest
> > doesn't matter...
> 
> LOL!!  I hadn't really thought about him in that light.  It *does*
> sort of put a new twist on the "defend the Constitution of the United
> States against all enemies, foreign or *domestic*..." phrase in the
> oath of office. :^)
> 
>         - Mark C.
>           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>           Front Sight First Family member #1
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
>  2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
>  Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
>     you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
>     --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
>     (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
>     (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:05:22 -8000 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com> writes:

> In My Traveller Universe, the Emperor is also the Most Holy Patriarch
> of the Imperial Christian Church, the state religion and dangerous
> political lever...

Now *that* is an interesting, and truly scarey take on the
religious/political power structure in the 3I!

While it is by no means well developed, IMTU there is a powerful
friction between dominant chruch (the Universal Church of Sylea)
and state.  This is very deliberately modeled after the conflict
between Thomas Becket and King Henry II.  The main difference is
that there is no "Becket" IMTU and the conflict rests mainly between
the minions of the Arch Deacon of the Universal Church and the minions
of the Emperor.  Actually, given that neither the Emperor or the
Arch Deacon can (publicly) appear to be in conflict, most of the
contention and sparing takes place behind the scenes and at the
direction (or direct hands) of trusted subordinates.  By way of
example, think of the Musketeers vs. Cardinal Richelieu, Rochefort
and Milady DeWinter.  It offers a tremendous potential for intrigue
and backstabs galore.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:13:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <raymond@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: batten down... & Moral Umbrage

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> 	I'd like to respectfully second the motion for the discussion of War,
> Morality and Vietnam be taken off list.   It is easy o get caught up in this
> sort of thing (as I learned in the post-Starship Troopers discussion) but it
> causes you to lose perspective and forget that this is a hobby discussion
> list.  Let it drop please.

I would strongly concur with Dave Nelson, and would ask that this
discussion be dropped.  Regardless of your personal beliefs, this
discussion has strayed FAR from Traveller.

Victor Raymond

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:20:49 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: update to Space Dock available

Come grab the update to Space Dock, available now at the web site listed
below. This update includes a couple minor bug fixes, some minor feature
additions, and the addition of much data from the two latest GURPS Traveller
releases.

http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

Andrew

_______________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:18:20 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

In a message dated 2/28/99 4:18:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< Well, it is heart-warming to see that the Solomani and Zhodani agree on the
 best course for the Imperium to take.   Nobles, let's get the Moot to
dissolve
 the Third Imperium and write that new constitution, since "international
 opinion" seems to demand it.
 
 			The Old Marquis
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:31:23 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jump training

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 07:17 PM 2/28/99 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >I beg thee, Inquisitor Maximus, what does the Reformed Canon Church
> >say about who the jump troopers were? Subject, expendable minor
> >races?
> 
> Probably.  As I think about it, I doubt that drop troops would be a regular
> facet of Vilani warfare, not very cost efficient.  I really don't think the
> Vilani Army would be much more than a hopped-up police force.  Landing
> troops is inefficient.
> 
> Imagine a world where Truman responded to the North Korean invasion of the
> South with multiple nukes.  That's the Vilani way.  Unless the world is
> absolutely vital, a world in rebellion will simply be bombed until it
> surrenders.
> 
> So, the Vilani jump troops were probably consider suicide troopers.  Penal
> Battalions offered amnesty if they survive their three years or whatever.
> (Nice bit of chrome for the IW period there).
> 
> >TL 11 seems a bit too soon.
> 
> I didn't say it was overly efficient.  Picture the difference between the
> early Airborne equipment and operations (DC-3s, troops scattered for miles)
> to today's equivalent: MC-130s and precision drops.  If the Vilani did
> consider drop troops expendable, they wouldn't have bothered to refine the
> technique.  All you need is a capsule that can survive reentry with a
> trooper on board.
> 
Meanwhile, at TL-11 (or even TL-10), the Terrans draw their jump troops
from paratrooper units, such as the 82d Airborne Division.  Given the
choice between dropping from orbit in a makeship capsule, and being a
"dirty, nasty leg", I know that _I_ would climb into that capsule (Ft.
Benning did a good job of... "indoctrinating" me.)

(FWIW, I changed the "2" jump troop unit to "82", in one of my copies of
_Imperium_.  Made sense at the time....)

> --
> 
<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:36:39 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Star Merc's 

Just got my copy finally - am I the only old tanker who thinks that
being Cav in this world would be really un-healthy? Was armor and Scouts
in the US Army for 16 years and this just feels, well, strange...

Any commentary welcome...

William

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:43:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> And if you know lots of history, then take it all
> with a grain of salt please, because I don't know history so well.

[snip]

> Of course, this means crusades can be legal.

Well, in the interestof historical accuracy then: The Crusades were legal.
According the the Catholic Church anyway.

:-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:34:44 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

In a message dated 2/28/99 4:18:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< Well, it is heart-warming to see that the Solomani and Zhodani agree on the
 best course for the Imperium to take.   Nobles, let's get the Moot to
dissolve
 the Third Imperium and write that new constitution, since "international
 opinion" seems to demand it.
 
 			The Old Marquis
  >>

Sir:

I must take umbrage at that statement. I'm an Imperial citizen (though born on
Terra). My parents "voted with their feet" and moved into the Imperium at
great personal and financial hardship. I have had one consistent thread in my
arguements; to give as many sophonts a voice in their government(s), and as
much protection to their personal liberties and freedoms as possible. The
Solomani Confederation fails miserably on both counts. They are a dictatorship
pure and simple, and sadly similar to some of our member planets (which is
what I want to see changed). The Zhodani are a repressive oligrachy. They are
schizophrenic in that their nobles have an excellent representative democracy,
wheras their proles have no personal liberties at all (based on their being
psionically searched at will without warrants for example). The fact that the
noble class is a meritocracy makes no difference....

Sir; I'm hoping that because of your previous courtesy; you mistook me for a
member of the Confederation and a believer in Solomani supremacy. I view that
individual Solomani can indeed be superior (as can individual Vilani, etc.),
but I have yet to find any scientific proof that any human or non human race
has an overall superiority...

Please attack my postitions and not my backround....

Solomani Sam; a proud patriotic Imperial citizen and also proud to be a true
Solomani (born on Terra)

(PS: Dave; I'm not starting a flame war, and have nothing personal against
you, but am just trying to stay in character)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:47:02 -0500
From: Commander X <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Sniping, Bitching and Moaning

From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>

>While we're at what ever happened to Commander X?

Still alive and kicking thank you very much! 

I still scan the list on occasion, especialy from work.
Unfortuneately there's been more "work" as of late.  So I have regressed
to lurker status on this list.

I'm still in the shipbuilding and weapons manufacturing business, but
now I am doing Classic and GURPS designs.  Check out my website:
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/x.htm

Eventualy I hope to send some designs to Pyramid.  If those Terrans at
Maximus can do it, so can I!

Stay tuned, I'm not dead yet!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #225
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 226



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Clif and other such things - 
Ditzie and Riot Control
Re: Clif and other such things -
Re: Vargr Corsair Image.
Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: (debate) Mother Duck bs Solomani Sam
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
[Debate] Ridgway 2 (response to Mother Duck)
Re: Bradley vs M113
Cliff and Mark Thing
Re: World Hooks
Re: GT Adventures
Re: Kewl hit location determination technique
Lost in the Ziru Sirka
Re: [Debate]--OCC from the Old Marquis
Re: You know who... ;'P
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:10:37 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Well, actually I outfit a scoutship, *ANY* scoutship with a standard issue 
turret - 1 laser.  I prefer to think of it as preventing the "unauthorized 
redistribution of Imperial Scout resources", since the Scouts never 
actually relinquish the ship.

And yes, for each additional roll, I do try and find something that 
increases the relative, ummm... usefulness? of the ship!  ;)  Heck, each 
additional roll for a merchant relates to millions of credits, so adding 
another laser is pretty cost effective.

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Traveller[SMTP:postmark.design@btinternet.com]
Sent: 	Sunday, February 28, 1999 7:17 AM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

On 26 Feb, Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
> Actually, isn't that four -hardpoints-?  As in you can arm it if you want
> to, but the stock config isn't armed?

Perhaps, for each additional scoutship after the Donosev, Douglas gives
it a dual fusion gun turret or something.

Phil Kitching

- --
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:53:56 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Clif and other such things - 

At 06:25 pm 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
>important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.


    Uuummm, is he still around?  Stunning, he did not leave us yet?

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:45:55 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ditzie and Riot Control

Guys,

I thought I'd already submitted Ditzie's riot control solution ... get the
FS Home Product's Division Home Sound System (the one with the Heplar
counteracted by contragravity), turn the volume up to eleven and wait for
them to bop themselves silly. Of for their eardrums to burst.

Hengabar also released a riot-control autoshotgun some time ago.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:48:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Clif and other such things -

In a message dated 2/28/99 4:27:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wlewis@mailbag.com writes:

<< Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
 important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.
 (I have, to my internal satisfaction, answered this - _maybe_ someday
 I'll share it ...)
 
 William >>

I think that it's because he's an expert at pushing everybody's buttons. After
I visited his site; I must confess my own dislike, because of my disagreement
with his religious philosophy; but that's my own problem...Lately; I've been
deleting a lot of stuff (except for my TCS stuff and the (debate) thread), so
I've missed most of the thermonuclear flame wars...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:53:13 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr Corsair Image.

I Wrote:
> Is the image on page 96 of GURPS Traveller Alien
> Races 1 supposed to be the Corsair?  If so, how is
> the cutter supposted to EXIT the ship?  Obviously
> the open bay displayed in the image doesn't match
> the plans.


Seth Wrote:
> I interpret that the cutter drops out the belly of the ship
> (the cutter is sitting on top of the exit doors...

That would work if the cargo deck didn't extend over
the drives of the cutter by a few hexes.  It's hard to get
an exact measure of the overlap, as the Elevator and
hatch on Deck 2 do not line up with the elevator and
hatch on the Cargo... another design issue.   This
would be REALLY apparent if this deckplans used a
grid instead of the GURPs hex underlay.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:51:56 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Troops:  Army or Marine?

In a message dated 2/28/99 4:34:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< Heh.  One of the tales told in a.f.m concerned to APs dealing with a drunk
 dependant with a knife.  Drunk kid graps one of the APs, puts the knife to
 his throat and shouts "I'll do him!"  Other AP comes back with "Cool with
 me, I owe him $300."
 
 Kid surrendered. >>

ROTFLOL! Beats the "draw weapon and tell him that if he sticks my partner-I
shoot him line"...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:51:59 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:49 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Why is that?  Are they not trained like U.S. Troops?  I can't imagine 90% of
> >U.S. soldiers repeating more than name, rank, and ssn without the threat of
> >torture.
> 
> Because your life is in the hands of these people.
> 
> Consider the situation.  Most of your friends are probably dead, you're
> cold, exhausted, and completely humiliated.  You've ben treated roughly,
> restrained and led around.  Suddenly someone speaking English is asking you
> a few simple questions.
> 
That's right, you were a special ops type.  I would imagine that you
went through rather extensive SERE training.

> Torture only hardened the resolve of prisoners in the Vietnam war.  And
> they will just tell you what you want to hear.

I made that point under the "Zhodani Interrogation" sub-thread. 
(However, I would change that to "PWs will tell you whatever makes you
stop hurting them.")

> --
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:59:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Butt-Ugly Donosev

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> Well, actually I outfit a scoutship, *ANY* scoutship with a standard issue
> turret - 1 laser.  I prefer to think of it as preventing the "unauthorized
> redistribution of Imperial Scout resources", since the Scouts never
> actually relinquish the ship.
> 
> And yes, for each additional roll, I do try and find something that
> increases the relative, ummm... usefulness? of the ship!  ;)  Heck, each
> additional roll for a merchant relates to millions of credits, so adding
> another laser is pretty cost effective.
> 
Then here's an idea for you (based on CT):

On an additional Type-S roll, pull the air raft out.  Fill the space
with an upgraded computer, tied into the main computer.  Makes it _much_
more survivable.  Besides, having extra computer power can't help but
improve the sensor data you have to download to get your free overhaul
and fuel.  (That's how your contact at Detached Duty sell it anyway....)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:02:46 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

In a message dated 2/28/99 5:08:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, markc@peak.org
writes:

<< By way of
 example, think of the Musketeers vs. Cardinal Richelieu, Rochefort
 and Milady DeWinter.  It offers a tremendous potential for intrigue
 and backstabs galore. >>

One thing about that book (sorry about OT). Why in the world was the Cardinal
against the queen? She was Catholic and Austrian. Why antagonize a neighbor
that you just went to the trouble of marrying into alliance? I would think
that it would have made more sense to save the queen's honor by making the
Duke of Buckingham look like a cad (ie he pushes the issue and she refuses),
than embarrass her that she is at least emotionally attached to him. After
all; England is a more logical enemy to France than the Holy Roman Empire. I
assume that Richelieu was a good politician...

Ob Trav: Just how savy are the Emperor's ministers?

BTW; still loved the books and the movies with Oliver Reed and Michael
York..:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:09:32 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: (debate) Mother Duck bs Solomani Sam

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: (debate) Solomani Sam resp Re: Natliatl
>
>This would work nicely. Each planet elects two councils/congresses. Note that
>the pool of citizens eligible to vote would be significantly larger than that
>maintained in the Consulate...One council is proportioned based on
population,
>giving larger planets larger councils, and the advantage. The second council
>is identical in size throughout the Imperium, giving the smaller planets the
>advantage. These two councils/congresses (whatever you want to call them...)
>not only act as planetary legislatures, but vote on representatives for the
>subsector congress, who vote for the sector congress reps, who vote for the
>domain congress reps,  who vote for the Imperial congress. reps...While this
>is not strictly a true representive democracy (it's really more of a
>representative republic...); it does have a nice blend of democracy and
>workability (assuming the numbers are juggled to keep the legislatures in the
>"lower" population houses from getting to large...

My dear Sam,

Let me tell you about two favorite hobbies of several of my disreputable
friends ... branch stacking and number crunching.

You propose that each world gets a vote at the legislature. Very well, I
shall fund my friends to set up a number of colonies, on other wise
uninhabited worlds.

We shall therefore get enough votes at the legislature to become a power.

Once we have that power, we will endeavour to become part of a working
majority. Once we have that majority, we will use it - for we are, after
all, reprepsenting the interests of The People and The Worlds.

One of the early things we will do is to create some sort of tribunal that
will stop anyone else grabbing the levers of power the way we did. After
all, if a council representing the Worlds and the People votes not to seat
a member, who is to tell them Nay ?

Mother Duck

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 20:25:27 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 02/28/99 at 01:50 PM,  "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:

>Canonically the Ancients stuck humans all over the Traveller universe
>around 300,000 years ago.  

Far be it from *me* to argue canon, ;-> but MT's Imperial
Encyclopedia puts the transplanting at 395,000 BC, Solomani dating.
Perhaps that was one of the many typo's in MT.

IAC, a 100,000 year difference doesn't really affect my points.

>This is during the era of archaic Homo Sapiens (though there is
>also some evidence that Homo Erectus also existed then).  Let's
>assume they took archaic Homo Sapiens.

Or assume they took both.  Or assume that the human evolutionary
track is as "bushy" as many anthropologists think and they selected
from among many sub-species of homonid including erectus, sapiens,
neanderthal, and other undefined tracks.

>At this point, we have two factors operating, natural selection, and
>(in some cases) genetic engineering by the Ancients.  Combine those
>two and you get all sorts of outcomes.  On some worlds humaniti would
>likely be beetle-browed and furry, on others tall hairless and
>willowy, or possibly even semi-aquatic.  However, a number of
>varieties would probably look pretty much like us.  There would
>almost certainly be numerous folks with odd racial characteristics. 
>I could easily see people with blonde hair, blue eyes and epicanthic
>eye folds, or even fire-engine red skin and deep violet eyes. 
>Clearly the Vilani look reasonably like earth humans, but there is no
>reason to suppose they are typical. 

There really isn't a reason to think that Vilani should look all
that much like Terrians.  If they do it is only because the authors
of various Traveller publications wanted it that way.

>I like this level of diversity, it makes the Imperium look a whole
>lot less like the Star Trek Universe, where everyone (other than one
>or two minorities tossed in to allege racial equality) is white.  I'd
>love to see more art depicting the vast variations in humanity in the
>Imperium.  With all this diversity I would expect many of these
>varieties to be cross-fertile, but likely not all of them (especially
>not the ones who have undergone significant genetic engineering. 

So, would homo sapiens sapiens by inter-fertile with homo erectus,
or more to the point whatever homo erectus or even homo sapiens
evolved into elsewhere?  

I contend that the different "races" of humaniti are more accurately
described as the different sub-species of humaniti.

>However, wrt disease resistance, I think things like the flu could
>easily infect almost every human species or subspecies out there. 
>Remember that these diseases are not simply confined to humans. 

Now, *that* is precisely the point I'm avoiding.  ;-> Don't want to
ignite the "plague debate" again.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:02:25 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [Debate] Ridgway 2 (response to Mother Duck)

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> >From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> >Subject: (debate) Solomani Sam resp Re: Natliatl
> >
<<snips Solomani Sam's description of a bicameral legislature>>
> 
> My dear Sam,
> 
> Let me tell you about two favorite hobbies of several of my disreputable
> friends ... branch stacking and number crunching.
> 
> You propose that each world gets a vote at the legislature. Very well, I
> shall fund my friends to set up a number of colonies, on other wise
> uninhabited worlds.
> 
> We shall therefore get enough votes at the legislature to become a power.
> 
> Once we have that power, we will endeavour to become part of a working
> majority. Once we have that majority, we will use it - for we are, after
> all, reprepsenting the interests of The People and The Worlds.
> 
> One of the early things we will do is to create some sort of tribunal that
> will stop anyone else grabbing the levers of power the way we did. After
> all, if a council representing the Worlds and the People votes not to seat
> a member, who is to tell them Nay ?
> 
My dear fellow sophont (with the unlikely nom de plume of "Mother
Duck"):

My wife, the member of our the family who holds an advanced degree in
history, requests that I ask you the following question:

Are you now, or have you ever been, a student of pre-spaceflight Terran
politics?  Specifically, are you a student of the political machinations
imputed to the Terran city of Chicago, during the late 19th to late 20th
century (Old Reckoning)?  She asks this because your means of
manipulating the vote reminds her of the ways in which the "Chicago
Machine" ensured that the Democratic-Republican Party had a reliable
majority, even going so far as not to deny the metabolically-challenged
(read:  dead) citizens the right to vote.

My wife further suggests that, should you embark upon the course you
describe, you must not be so undemocratic as to disenfranchise those
Imperial citizens who are traveling via low berth.  (If you colonize
your target worlds with low berth colonists, and choose not to revive
them until conditions on the colonies on said worlds are sufficiently
advanced to support your colonists, then you can enfranchise these
colonists for _quite_ some time....)

Of course, I have only forwarded this information in the interest of
family harmony....

"Ridgway"

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:22:07 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >(BTW, no
> >current FSU/Russian tank carries a 120mm gun.  T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90/T-90+
> >tanks carry a 125mm smoothbore gun, which is much less effective than
> >the 120mm Rheinmetall gun carried by the M1A1/M1A2, the Leopard 2, and
> >(IIRC) the LeClerc, or the 120mm rifled gun on the Challenger series of
> >British tanks.
> 
> Define effective. That 120mm Rheinmetall gun can't penetrate the armour
> on a T-90, even with an APFSDS-DU round.
> 
Assuming that this is the case, then the Rheinmetall gun is still
effective against the vast majority of FSU tanks.  The FSU 125mm gun
(with or without a gun-launched ATGM) can't make the same claim
concerning the M1 series, the Challenger series, or (IIRC) other NATO
tanks of similar vintage.

ObTrav:  Can't think of one off-hand, since I already asked about the
"Threat Inflation Quotient" among the various intersteller polities. 
*shrug*

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:28:31 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Cliff and Mark Thing

Let's see I've only been back on the list what four days and what has
transpired?

soapbox mode on---


***FLAME WARS***Part 27

This s**t is precisely why I left the TML several months ago.
Personally, I think both Mark and Cliff were absolutely out of line in
both regard to on-line etiquette and the courtesy one expects one to
give to another regardless of their opinion. I find Mr. Cook's comments
just as insulting as I do Cliff's. I come from a family that had members
serving in the U.S. military from the Revolution on, my father was in
the military (US Army 1958-62), and I made it as the last stages of MEPS
when the doc' asked what about that hip (the one I badly dislocated the
year before skiing in 1985). , I would have gladly served in the
military if able, and in my view  war boils down to  that you're not
fighting for your country or your service, you are fighting for your
friends around you....BTW. My great-uncle died at Okinawa and another in
Italy, my four maternal uncles have served in the military and one is
now carreer in the Navy. My brother-in-law is a SEAL and he doesn't
thinks at all like Mark. But guess what, I was a practicing Quaker for 8
years (and an avowwed leftist) and I believe Cliff's representations are
balderdash. Although, I'm not a Quaker now I'm very sympathetic to their
views, however, I see the need and requirement for war and warriors. I
view war like I learned in Aikido, it is best rare, and when engaging
it, already allowed  youself to  be defeated by a lesser opponent, but
when forced conflict should be short, intense, and in dire need,
mercilessness. War is evil, unfair, cruel, useless, and all those other
things, but it will outlast poverty and pollution in being a bane to
mankind.

All in all I'm sick that this flaming  has gone out of hand and I'll get
off my soapbox. This is list is about Traveller and its  many
incarnations, and I'll gladly hope this stuff will never happen again. I
work sixty hours+ a week, reenact the Civil War, and do a million other
things to boot. After family obligations, the last thing  I want to do
is download my e-mail and be faced with whats been going on here. Here's
my paryer for both moderation and MODERATED lists.

Musashi

soapbox mode off

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:34:44 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: World Hooks

I've been considering opening up my players to the possibilities of working for 
the AAB.  This would be a great lead in to many of the hooks that have already 
been discussed.  "Hey guys, intelligence has it that this here world passes on 
its traditon orally ... however, it hasn' always been so.  There's one sacred 
piece of written history ...."

Just the kind of thing the AAB might be interested in.

By the way.  I posed this question some time ago.  The only info I have on the 
AAB comes from IG's Milieu 0 campaign book.  Does anyone have anything 
that pertains directly to the time period from around 1112 - 1120?


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:34:44 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

I'd have to agree with this.  My fellow gamers and I were commenting that none our games
seem to publish adventures anymore.  It's too bad.  I for one, being busy, really 
enjoy a selection of pre-made adventures.  The Gurps Space adventures were 
good.  I might suggest the BITS products (i.e. 101 plots, 101 cargos, 101 
travellers, etc.).  Also, you might still be able to find a few of the ones published 
by Imperium games... although set in Millue 0, I've run many of them in 1112 
and beyond with just a few minor changes.

> Unfortunately, that isn't likely. SJG says they have found GURPS:
> (Whatever) Adventures to be among the worst-selling products they have
> ever published. Why, I don't know.
> 
> Tom Schoene


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:41:42 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Kewl hit location determination technique

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:48:03 -0800, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
> >Subject: Kewl hit location determination technique (was: Body Parts)
> ...
> >The idea came from-- ugh-- Warhammer 40K.  Here's the skinny:
> 
>   You actually collect/read GW products? That's very sad.

No.  I just happened to glance down at one of their gaming tables one day
years ago while shopping for a few lead minis.  I don't think I actually
"read" how it worked... I simply "deduced" it.  Was I that far off?



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:53:14 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

I buried Khaashuur yesterday.  We were attacked by nomads who
had no conscience at all, leaving us with our clothes and some new
bruises.  Khaashuur suffered internal injuries and was coughing up
blood not long after.  I still cannot use a cutlass.  Now I wish I had
learned a long time ago.

If only there was a calendar that made sense here.  Everything is
local.  Money is local.  Time is local.

Everything is primitive.  Money is disorganized and silly, with
strange denomination ratios... 3 to 1, then 5 to 1 or 6 to 1 or
even (Sharshurshid protect us!) 7 to 1.

With a functioning memclip and patience we were able to learn their
simple language.  The people on this planet certainly sound strange,
with some noises I've never heard before.  Kind of nasal, like the
yokels in Ilelish, liberally peppered with yowling noises and coughs.

Medicine is horribly primitive.  I don't want to talk about it.
Though I must say their herblore is of an extremely high quality --
they can extract beneficial chemicals from the local flora
without all our expensive and tedious processing techniques.

Let's just say it, shall we?  I'm doomed to die on this miserable
world, so far from all I know, and too close to all these smelly
people.  Actually, they don't smell anymore, which means I
must smell like them now.

Though, of course, they must have technology somewhere on this
world.  The atmosphere is pleasant, if a bit dry, and people actually
eat most of the smaller vegetation here!  In fact, they even eat the
animals, which proves that there must have been genetic engineering
going on at one time.  That, or someone transplanted most of the
edibles in the galaxy and planted a garden-quality reserve world,
perhaps for hunting?  My goal is to find the emergency starport
that MUST be on this world.

On the schedule for these next couple days is the end of a great
feast.  The religious caste are playing tug-of-war or something
with the warrior caste over a trouble-maker who claims to be
the king.  He's obviously an artisan, but I heard he says the most
extraordinary things, inciting riots and disturbing the peace.  And
now this bit about being the king.  I mean, if he went around saying
he was the Emperor we'd put him away!  They take things like
that very gravely down here.  I'll stick around and see what happens.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:32:44 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: [Debate]--OCC from the Old Marquis

Dear Folks -

Dave asked:
>    3) Does the sponsor of the debate envision a close-out of the debate?

Hopefully, not before we have all commented.

>    4)  Is anyone else going to get involved again?
>     Are the other participants being more deliberate and measured in
issuing posts?

Yes, and yes (especially as befits the entity I have chosen to portray ;-).

>Or are you all waiting for us to wind down, before jumping back in?

In reality, I'm behind in replying due to long hours at work (March release
and all that), and having no time on weekends at the moment. Oh, and any
response from me may well be further disrupted when our second child
arrives (due last Thursday, now just a waiting game).

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:08:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: You know who... ;'P

>> LOL!!  I hadn't really thought about him in that light.  It *does*
>> sort of put a new twist on the "defend the Constitution of the United
>> States against all enemies, foreign or *domestic*..." phrase in the
>> oath of office. :^)
>>

Oh right.  I'm the big, bad "domestic terrorist"...  If you want to defend
the Constitution, it'll be from those who claim to love it, not those who
don't give two whits about it.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:07:33 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

I'd snip this to save bandwidth, but then I couldn't make my point....

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> I buried Khaashuur yesterday.  We were attacked by nomads who
> had no conscience at all, leaving us with our clothes and some new
> bruises.  Khaashuur suffered internal injuries and was coughing up
> blood not long after.  I still cannot use a cutlass.  Now I wish I had
> learned a long time ago.
> 
> If only there was a calendar that made sense here.  Everything is
> local.  Money is local.  Time is local.
> 
> Everything is primitive.  Money is disorganized and silly, with
> strange denomination ratios... 3 to 1, then 5 to 1 or 6 to 1 or
> even (Sharshurshid protect us!) 7 to 1.
> 
> With a functioning memclip and patience we were able to learn their
> simple language.  The people on this planet certainly sound strange,
> with some noises I've never heard before.  Kind of nasal, like the
> yokels in Ilelish, liberally peppered with yowling noises and coughs.
> 
> Medicine is horribly primitive.  I don't want to talk about it.
> Though I must say their herblore is of an extremely high quality --
> they can extract beneficial chemicals from the local flora
> without all our expensive and tedious processing techniques.
> 
> Let's just say it, shall we?  I'm doomed to die on this miserable
> world, so far from all I know, and too close to all these smelly
> people.  Actually, they don't smell anymore, which means I
> must smell like them now.
> 
> Though, of course, they must have technology somewhere on this
> world.  The atmosphere is pleasant, if a bit dry, and people actually
> eat most of the smaller vegetation here!  In fact, they even eat the
> animals, which proves that there must have been genetic engineering
> going on at one time.  That, or someone transplanted most of the
> edibles in the galaxy and planted a garden-quality reserve world,
> perhaps for hunting?  My goal is to find the emergency starport
> that MUST be on this world.
> 
> On the schedule for these next couple days is the end of a great
> feast.  The religious caste are playing tug-of-war or something
> with the warrior caste over a trouble-maker who claims to be
> the king.  He's obviously an artisan, but I heard he says the most
> extraordinary things, inciting riots and disturbing the peace.  And
> now this bit about being the king.  I mean, if he went around saying
> he was the Emperor we'd put him away!  They take things like
> that very gravely down here.  I'll stick around and see what happens.

Set circa AD 33 (Solomani Old Reckoning), I take it?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #226
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 227



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Religion
Don't think about the color 'blue'(Re: Zho Interrogation)
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: GT Adventures
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Whorish, Painted Donosev
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Whorish, Painted Donosev
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports
Fw: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
[Debate]Natliatl responds to Old Marquis and Solomani Sam
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: GURPS Space
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
[OT]  Canadian insecurity?  (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:12:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

>Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com> writes:
>
>> In My Traveller Universe, the Emperor is also the Most Holy Patriarch
>> of the Imperial Christian Church, the state religion and dangerous
>> political lever...
>
>Now *that* is an interesting, and truly scarey take on the
>religious/political power structure in the 3I!

If you want some juicy religious history, check out Pope Borgia and his
daughter Lucrezia (Lucretia?) Borgia.  Now THERE is intrigue!
>
>While it is by no means well developed, IMTU there is a powerful
>friction between dominant chruch (the Universal Church of Sylea)
>and state.  This is very deliberately modeled after the conflict
>between Thomas Becket and King Henry II.  The main difference is
>that there is no "Becket" IMTU and the conflict rests mainly between
>the minions of the Arch Deacon of the Universal Church and the minions
>of the Emperor.

By "universal" church, did the author mean "Catholic church"(for that is
what "Catholic" means)?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:34:14 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Don't think about the color 'blue'(Re: Zho Interrogation)

Black ICE wrote:
> If it works without psionics, psionics should make things even easier.
> You might get good results from the "non-Galanglic-speaking" guard,
> during EPW transport.  No questions are asked, so the EPW don't 
> realize they're being "read."  (Surface thoughts, anyway.)

Wouldn't that waste a lot of time (and psi points) reading the prisoners
thoughts without trying to direct them?  There would be large amounts of
useless information (for the Zho military) going through the prisoners
thought: fears of brainwashing, guilt, fallen comrades, morbid thoughts,
and so on.  By asking key questions the pertinent info would naturally
come to mind for the prisoner.  Just in the same way if you told some
one "don't think about the color blue" most people would think about the
color blue out of reflex.  Which is why I think Imperial personnel with
security clearances would have been trained not to react that way.

Another tactic: introduce the prisoner to the interrogator (blatantly,
"this is your telepathic interrogator") and sit them down in a quiet
room together.  The interrogator says nothing, simply reading the
surface thoughts of the prisoner waiting for them to try to not think
about important information.  An unconditioned mind would have a hard
time avoiding thoughts that they fear the enemy would want to know.

Another thought (pun intended), would the Imperial military have
standard issue suicide capsules?

> But trained interrogators are _already_ contaminated, with untasteful
> thoughts... >;-)

I definitely agree with you on that.  It would be a necessity for a Zho
interrogator to know the enemy quite well.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:34:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

>>That's why US Army interrogators don't torture EPW...for information.
>
>We do, however, give them MREs to eat.  We captured some Brits during a
>NATO excercise.  The almost rioted when they got their rations.
>--

I thought Brits were used to bland food.  : )  At least you were feeding
them something other than 1st generation MRE's, with the grizzle in the
mystery meat.

- --Clif

>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:52:56 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

> > Unfortunately, that isn't likely. SJG says they have found GURPS:
> > (Whatever) Adventures to be among the worst-selling products they have
> > ever published. Why, I don't know.
> >
> > Tom Schoene
> 
It probably doesn't sell well because most aren't very well done
(pre-written adventures in general not just GURPS).  Most railroad the
players and GM with linear plots.  If the players don't follow the
linear plot (I have found most don't) then most the adventure material
was a waste (along with the money you spent).  The best style I have
seen for pre-written adventures was the DGP's nugget style.  If
pre-written adventures expanded upon that style (with more options and
outcomes) then I think adventures would sell quite well.
IMHO, of course.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:56:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Imperial Religion
...
>One thing about that book (sorry about OT). Why in the world was the Cardinal
>against the queen? She was Catholic and Austrian. Why antagonize a neighbor
>that you just went to the trouble of marrying into alliance? I would think
>that it would have made more sense to save the queen's honor by making the
>Duke of Buckingham look like a cad (ie he pushes the issue and she refuses),
>than embarrass her that she is at least emotionally attached to him. After
>all; England is a more logical enemy to France than the Holy Roman Empire. I
>assume that Richelieu was a good politician...

  Probably hostile to the Austrian connection and potential diversion to
southern Europeam adventures, rather than concentrating on dominating the
Rhenish frontier, I'd guess. The Habsburgs were essentially hereditary
enemies of the French state and its functionaries, no matter how exalted.

  The fact of being in the midst of what amounted to a century of civil war
and disorder may have been a consideration.

  Note also that all of the above makes much more sense than some of the
weirder stuff that went on later.

  PS - permission to send a lecturer (and assistants) round to your system
to discuss practical political theory?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:09:05 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> There really isn't a reason to think that Vilani should look all
> that much like Terrians.  If they do it is only because the authors
> of various Traveller publications wanted it that way.

Too true.

The Vilani would evolve in a different environment for 390,600 years
(by the MT Imperial Encyclopedia dates).  After that they begin to
colonize other systems and would be subject to even further
diversification based on the different environments (to the extent
they interact with their environment anyway).

Thats 375600 years, give or take, before Terrans reach Homo Sapiens.
I hadn't realized the time was so great.


>
>
> >I like this level of diversity, it makes the Imperium look a whole
> >lot less like the Star Trek Universe, where everyone (other than one
> >or two minorities tossed in to allege racial equality) is white.  I'd
> >love to see more art depicting the vast variations in humanity in the
> >Imperium.  With all this diversity I would expect many of these
> >varieties to be cross-fertile, but likely not all of them (especially
> >not the ones who have undergone significant genetic engineering.
>
> So, would homo sapiens sapiens by inter-fertile with homo erectus,
> or more to the point whatever homo erectus or even homo sapiens
> evolved into elsewhere?
>
> I contend that the different "races" of humaniti are more accurately
> described as the different sub-species of humaniti.

Good point.  And fairly persuasive.  But I'm not so sure about
the rainbow predicted above.  It seems to me that the Vilani would
probably be a consistant Homo Vilani, at the latest, between -20,000
(warbots run down) and -10,011 (Vilani space explorations begin).

This Homo Vilani expands and settles other worlds after that. At this
point,
it seems to me, its likely for these other world to diverge
evolutionarily,
but only racially, i.e, their still one species, IMHO.  This continues
until
the Terrans show up.  All told, about 7500 years.  Not enough time for
extreme variations, especially at modern tech levels.

Then we have 3300 years of Vilani-Terran coexistance.

I'm not sure Eris was going this far but I will: IMO, its unreasonable to
expect or even hope that Terrans and Vilani are interfertile.  Hopefully,
an anthropologist or bioloist will set us straight here.  I also think
that
Terrans and Vilani are visually distinct in obvious ways.  I have no
idea what those differences should be, but I think they have to be there
based on all the time spent on Vland.  I don't have any idea what though.
Maybe skin colors.

Here's a suggestion: assume the transplanted Terrans were dark skinned,
i.e, high melanin.  Thats certainly reasonable I think.  Then assume that
the solar radiation isn't as great on Vland as on Terra (based on V&V
that might be fair based on the given Energy Absorption of Vland at
74% that of Terra.  The implication is that Vilani need to absorb more
energy,
thus less melanin, and lighter skin colors.  So, darker skin would be
unknown
among later Vilani.  Of course, handwaving interfertility, mixing with
Terrans
means you can have any combination you want.

For the Zhodani, work it the other way.  They need the melanin based on
Zhdant's environment, so light skin color is virtually unknown amongst
them.

Maybe it is better to handwave it with the Ancients magic wand and say
Gramps
wanted interfertility.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 00:17:02 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

[snip]

Brilliant!

Any more?  Did you set this in a particular place?  I'm guessing Northern
Europe between 200 and 800 AD?


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:15:12 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

>Maybe skin colors.
>
>Here's a suggestion: assume the transplanted Terrans were dark skinned,
>i.e, high melanin.  Thats certainly reasonable I think.  Then assume that
>the solar radiation isn't as great on Vland as on Terra (based on V&V
>that might be fair based on the given Energy Absorption of Vland at
>74% that of Terra.  The implication is that Vilani need to absorb more
>energy,
>thus less melanin, and lighter skin colors.  So, darker skin would be
>unknown
>among later Vilani.  Of course, handwaving interfertility, mixing with
>Terrans
>means you can have any combination you want.
>

Seems like I read somewhere that modern "skin" colors are environmental
evolutions that have come into being in the last 100,000 years or less.
Before that we were all the same.
SOOO.....
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 23:22:55 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 03/01/99 at 12:09 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>I'm not sure Eris was going this far but I will: IMO, its
>unreasonable to expect or even hope that Terrans and Vilani are
>interfertile.  

I was just suggesting the possibility that the various minor human
"races" are probably about as close to each other as Terran humans
are to bonos or chimps.  Well, OK, a little closer.  ;->
Personally, this isn't my field of expertise, just some questions I
thought might cause some thought.

Oh, and I was also trying to keep some sort of discussion going that
had nothing to do with certain other threads flooding the TML.

BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
post? 


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:24:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Whorish, Painted Donosev

Jesse,

Once again you've outdone yourself!  At least now the ugly madam is made up!
I'd still shoot her on sight in the name of classical Greek balance.

"Beauty is vain, like a nosering on a pig."

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 23:25:09 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

On 03/01/99 at 12:17 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>Any more?  Did you set this in a particular place?  I'm guessing
>Northern Europe between 200 and 800 AD?

I placed it somewhat earlier, and a little further southeast. ;->  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 99 23:32:53 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 02/28/99 at 11:15 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net> said:


>Seems like I read somewhere that modern "skin" colors are
>environmental evolutions that have come into being in the last
>100,000 years or less. Before that we were all the same.
>SOOO.....

Hum, I doubt there is much evidence either way.  Has anything other
than bone and stone tools been discovered from that long ago?  I
don't think so, but evolutionary change certainly has continued and
as humankind scattered across the globe I can see selection based on
envirnomental factors taking place.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:37:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Whorish, Painted Donosev

Does anyone know of a person with Jesse's talents who models 2300 AD
spacecraft?

- --Clif


>Jesse,
>
>Once again you've outdone yourself!  At least now the ugly madam is made up!
>I'd still shoot her on sight in the name of classical Greek balance.
>
>"Beauty is vain, like a nosering on a pig."
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:25 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

>> > (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
>> > 


They have in my games. it is a terrifying kind of thing to encounter in 
a hard science kind of game...

Bad News: Silver and Crosses don't work.

Good News: Guns do!
:)

Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:39:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

Roger Barr said:

>>> > (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
>>> >
>
>
>They have in my games. it is a terrifying kind of thing to encounter in
>a hard science kind of game...
>
>Bad News: Silver and Crosses don't work.
>
>Good News: Guns do!
>:)


There was also a Traveller adventure in one of the old JTAS's called "Day of
the Glow," the storyline was that a bio-weapon (a contagious version of...
porphiria? I probably mangled the spelling) broke out on a planet. The
disease made folks act in a very vampire-like fashion.

When I was rather young I wrote a story in which an intergalactic salvage
crew came across a derelict ship that turned out to be something of a
"prison pod." Kind of like "Space Seed" meets that episode of Buck Rogers
with the goofy space vampire...

It was part of a series of adventures that this poor crew found themselves
involved with. Mostly derivative and juvenile, but fun to write at the time.
;^)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:40:10 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports

I've been looking for this: my version of spaceports on and around Terra in
2025. I designed it for a GURPS Cyberpunk/Near Orbit campaign, but it is
compatible with GT. Latitude equals minimum initial orbital inclination;
spaceport class (CL) is a relative measure of facilities and quality.

Equatorial

Spaceport		Ident	Loc		Owner	CL	Type	Lat	UTC	PR	CR
Kourou			SOOK	Fr. Guiana	ESA	A	R	5.0	-3	4	3
Singapore/Changi	WSSS	Singapore		B	P	2.0	+8	6	5
Delta Transfer	AQDD	HEO		FTL	C	S	0.0	0	2	1
Quito			SEQU	Ecuador		C	M, P	0.5	-5	6	5
Mogadishu Intl	HCMM	Somalia	AL	C	P	2.0	+3	6	1
Nairobi		HKNA	Kenya		ESA	C	M	2.0	+3	6	4

Ecliptic

Spaceport		Ident	Loc		Owner	CL	Type	Lat	UTC	PR	CR
Kennedy Ctr, FL	KX68	US		NASA	A	P, R	28.5	-5	4	5
Rio de Janeiro	SBGL	Brazil			B	P	22.9	-3	7	2
Chek Lap Kok		VHCL	Hong Kong	PRC	B	P	23.0	+8	6	2
Bombay			VABB	India		India	C	P	19.0	+5	7	4
Alpha Transfer	EQAA	HEO		ESA	C	S	23.5	0	2	3
Bravo Transfer 	EQBB	HEO		ESA	C	S	23.5	0	2	3
Charlie Transfer 	EQCC	HEO		ESA	C	S	23.5	0	2	3

High Inclination/Polar

Spaceport		Ident	Loc		Owner	CL	Type	Lat	UTC	PR	CR
Kagoshima		RJFK	Japan		JAB	A	R	32.0	+9	4	5
Shuang Cheng Tzu	ZSCT	PRC			A	R	33.0	+8	6	5
Mojave Intl, CA	KRIV	US		USA	A	P	35.1	-8	7	4
Tyuratam		UATY	Kazakhstan	SRC	A	H, R	45.6	+6	4	5
Frankfurt/Rhein-Main	EDAF	EC		ESA	A	P	50.0	+1	6	4
Sydney Intl		YSSY	Australia		B	P	33.9	+10	6	3
New Tokyo Intl	RJAA	Japan		JAB	B	P	35.8	+9	7	4
Peterson AFB, CO	KCOS	US		USAF	B	H, P	38.8	-7	5	5
Beijing/Capital	ZBAA	PRC		PRC	B	P	39.9	+8	6	5
JFK Intl, NY		KJFK	US		USA	B	P	40.8	-5	7	4
Moscow/Sheremetyevo	UUEE	Russia		SRC	B	P	50.8	+3	7	3
Capetown/Gateway	FAGB	S. Africa		C	P	34.0	+2	6	3
Echo Transfer 	CXEE	HEO		ESA	C	S	60.0	0	1	2
Int'l Space Station	CXFM	LEO		ISU	D	S	51.4	0	1	3

Key: AL=Arab League, CR=Control Rating, FTL=Free Trade League, H=High
Energy Laser Lift (HELL), HEO=High Earth Orbit, ISU=International Space
University, LEO=Low Earth Orbit, M=Massdriver, P=Plane (HTOL), PR=local
Population Rating, R=Rocket (VTOL), S=Space (0g), SRC=Soviet Rocket Corps.

Mojave International is the former March Air Force Base, midway between Los
Angeles and Barstow, CA. The identifiers are either authentic or consistent
with current ICAO usage, and are used when filing flightplans.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:46:25 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

Oh, yes, I am firmly aware that English and American are seperate languages.
For instance, in England, it is not unusual for small children to ask the
teacher for a "rubber"

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)


>In a message dated 2/28/99 12:25:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>postmark.design@btinternet.com writes:
>
><< > >For example, suppose there's a planet where the word "roger" means
> > >intercourse, in a rather crude manner
>
> > You mean, like in England ?
> > :-)
>
> > "Roger the Cabin Boy !"
>
> It's an urban legend, I tell you!
>  >>
>
> The phrase "I knocked up your sister" also has drastically different
meanings
>in England and America
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:15:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Damien Fox <phocks@goodnet.com>
To: Traveller <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:49 AM
Subject: Fw: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)


>Oh, yes, I am firmly aware that English and American are seperate
languages.
>For instance, in England, it is not unusual for small children to ask the
>teacher for a "rubber"


Here in America they don't even have to ask!

Silly brits ;^)


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:41:34 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: [Debate]Natliatl responds to Old Marquis and Solomani Sam

    First, let me plainly state that at no point was I advocating that the
Imperium simply adopt the government structure of the Consulate.  I do not
believe that anyone would seriously consider that to be a socially viable
alternative, even were it logically to be demonstrated to be the best case.
I was simply pointing out that for one human state, at least, our system
works, and has for an exceptionally long time.
    As to the needless slanders of our social system, I will not reply, as I
strongly feel that any response will simply draw more xenophobic ire.
    Next, I would say to the Old Marquis, the Warrant of Restoration is by
your very words a hollow document, to be discarded at will as the Emporer
sees fit.  While the Consulate has no written, concrete constitution, social
conditions are vastly different.  I mean no disrespect when I say that no
Zhodani  in their right mind (for whatever reason- please do not go off
about mind control) would ever attempt to usurp or corrupt the rightful
order of things.   You Imperials, with your differing mindset, have
repeatedly shown the need for a clear and enforced chain of responsibilty.
While I see no reason to believe that the Emporer, as an institution, is
inherently wrong, the very power of the position is the weakness of your
entire system.  Remove the Emporer, the rest is as dust.
       Finally, as others have pointed out, given the inherently
duplicitious nature of Imperial humaniti,  many more safeguards would have
to be emplaced than I have outlined.  I am afraid that given the fundamental
differences in our psychology, it would be virtually imposible for a Zhodani
social system to work in the Imperial Enviroment.

Your servant,
Natliatl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:55:39 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
>
> Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
> allowed freedom.

Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.

We respectfully request full military intervention.

Faceless Minion

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:09:14 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Space

Mark Watson wrote:

> Hi, maybe one of the GURPS experts can clarify the following for me ...
>
> I currently have GURPS Space 2nd Ed. I think there's a third edition? If so,
> what's in it that's new?

Rumor central has Dave Pulver ( of Ultratech fame) working on this.

Changes, pro.. not many the change from first to second was mostly
formating.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:11:04 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, Great Caesar's ghost!   Can't I be safe from Vampie-freaks even in
> Traveller ;-)
>

 Hey, didn't we already have this conversation?

Any how in one of the journels there was a great Adventure about
"Vampires".

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:17:36 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

Thom Harris wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>
> >Anybody want a Corndog?

> Now you're bringing the Vargr into it......Jeez, when does it end ;)
> Thom

 Naw Technically I'm bringing the Hivers.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:49:44 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: [OT]  Canadian insecurity?  (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.)

> >provided for you by all the people who've bled and died for your country
> 
>   *.ca = Canada, not California (nice thought though). Last time I checked
> Quebec was still part of Canada, so I doubt that the original poster is in
> much danger of having a US draft card, among other things.

Really?  C'mon... everyone know *.dk stands for... um... shoot... Dakota,
north.  :-)  *.no if for... um... I knew this one...  New Orleans... d'oh...
that's a city!  Um...  I was sure i knew that...  Seriously, half of the
emails sent from family come w/ the .mx because that's where they live (though
I see the same symptoms in a couple of them), and one buddy (who's half
japanese) emails me from Tokyo.  I know what .ca stands for, amongst others.
I know Hans is from (or at least is at) Denmark.  Others are from (or using a
mail server in) Spain (.es), etc etc etc.

It never ceases to amuse and amaze me that a few of the vocal Canadians on
this list are so quick to point out they're not dominated in some (or any or
every, take your pick) way by their neighbor to the south.  The few Canadians
I've met in person, at least that I knew were Canadian, haven't had this
complex.  Indeed were people I respect greatly (one was a DI at MCRD San
Diego, though not one of mine, though I think he *was* a Canadian, having
gained US citizenship).

I meant "your country" as "whatever country you happen to be from."  I'm not
aware if Canada has a draft or not, or if they used one in WWII (the most
recent event to probably necessitate such).  They're in NATO, no?  Did they
have any position they would've taken in response to an American/Soviet clash
aka WWIII?   I doubt they'd have gone the way of the Soviets, but if so
there'd have to be plans to confront the US, which couldn't look anything but
bleak.    In any case, the presumption would be that a big war could or would
happen in the relatively near future and even Canada would respond, though I
guess I'm willing to be convinced they wouldn't.

In any case, relax, i'm not out to help foster, nor do I believe in, American
Imperialism, nor the domination of my nation's northern and southern
neighbors.  Nor the Western hemisphere, nor the globe, for whatever worth any
of that would be.

And in case anyone is really high strung, this whole post is meant with very
light humor.  [insert smiley emoticon here].  Flame if you want, but do so
privately to spare the list, unless u feel the need to share.  I might even
enjoy the personal attention. ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #227
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 228



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)
Re: Imperial Religion
Torture first, Ask later. If you remember.
Re: Pyramid
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 
Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)
Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Smallpox
Re: Smuggler's holds
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:49:54 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> ATGM missile can get to me...I don't know how this would work with newer
> faster missiles, and with helos doing pop up fire and forget shots....

That's what Air is for.  : )  

The M2 is the primary anti aircraft and vehicle weapon.  It's not *supposed*
to be used against personnel...  The loaders M240 also does air watch, but
isn't very useful in that role.  Lastly (or primarily, take your pick),
there's teh MPAT round.  It was designed for use against the common FSU helo's
(especially Hind's), though smaller ones like the Havok and Hokum are almost
guaranteed to be safe IIRC.

> >Maybe, but i'm dubious... the M829A3 is the silver bullet.  If they do
survive
> >the hit, they're not going to be enjoying life much.   We have an MCD,
though
> >I won't see one until there's a war.
> 
> Yep. Trouble is, the long-rod structure of the sabot round is vulnerable
> to side-impact forces - which is exactly what Kontact-5 does to it. The
> armour literally shatters the sabot before it penetrates the hull of the
> vehicle.

Like I said, dubious.  I've heard the publicity around it.  Possible, but
given the relative velocities, I'm still dubious.  Especially given what I
know they're guns can do to us on the frontal arc (and we can still nail them
beyond their max eff. range).

> >I'm more talking bout the transmission, engine and speed issues.  Plus the
> >guns. We beat them on max eff range.
> 
> Hmm at 38-odd ton tank against a 50-something ton tank. You'll need an
> awfully good transmission & suspension to make good on the weight issue.
> Agreed, reliability of the mechanics is an issue with FSU gear.

Turbine vs diesel engine.  World of difference.  The T-84 (AKA T-80DU, not
depleted uranium) has gone to a turbine system, but the T-80 and IIRC the T-90
are still just diesel.

And an M1A1 is 68 tons, combat loaded.  

> And the holders of the longest-range tank kill is?
> 
> British Army, Challenger I, HESH.

And they've got the long, unwieldy gun to show it, too.  I'll still w/ the
Rheinmettal. :-)

<referring to rumored M1A3 w/ 155mm autoloaded gun>
> The US finally gets an autoloader. Hope it works.

Like I said only scuttlebutt so far.  155 is getting to big to have a body
load effectively (3-5 sec).  I'll believe it when I see it (or at least that
the army has it).

> >Yeah, but you know SNAFU.  Have to be prepared to adapt and respond.  :-)
> 
> Semper Gumby, eh?

Always. 

> >LOL.  nah.  Just being cocky.  ;-)  I ain't that arrogant, though am
confident
> >I'd be able to plug any tank or 3 up against mine and trust my fellows to
do
> >the same.
> 
> Well, train hard, fight easy. I hope you're right.

You're not the only one. ;-)   That's the only way to do it.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:49:51 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)

> First there was a post about how someone objected to glorifying someone
> for killing many *dozens* of people.  It wasn't a flame, or terribly
> hostile, just a statement of belief.  The response was:

IIRC, there was no glorification of someone who killed "dozens" of people (93
confirmed in this case).  Doug Berry stated something to the effect that there
"would not be his like again,"  what I took to refer to the Gunny's humility
and skill & bravery (and specifically the ratio of the above).   That might
well be possible, though I'm not certain of it. USMC Scout/Sniper school
continues (and i'm not even going to tell you what they tatoo on themselves,
who knows what conclusions the peaceniks will jump to then!  Hey Doug, you got
one of those?  Just curious.) and like every other necessity of war, learning
on the lessons of prior missions.  The Gunny would be required reading, of
course.

Still, in retrospect, I'd have limited my reply to Ross (via the list anyways)
with:

<<  What a petty little person you must be.  If that was your intent for the
post,
  you should've emailed him privately, troll.>>

and followed with the rest privately.  Alas, the coulds and woulds.

> > As well as doing what's needed when it's necessary.  Claiming moral
courage
> > when refusing to do one's duty and obeying the laws of his land isn't
> > anything but moral bankruptcy.
> 
> That's the key to the disagreement.  Some people here believe that some
> actions (in this case killing other humans) is just *wrong*.  Such people
> (myself included) believe that all the laws and commandments by the
> government on how it is you duty to kill "the enemy" in some war doesn't
> make it right.

Presumption is a sane individual.  Noone enjoys killing.  Noone was glorifying
killing.  Gunny Carlos Hathcock was skilled and brave (the definition of
heroic, I can quote Websters New World, 2nd Concise if you really want me to).
Noone was saying the propaganda put out by governments (or anyone else) is
right.  I'm assuming that's not a straw man, too.

As I pointed out, every civilization has held a large difference between the
warrior and the killer.  Some (like the Byzantines might see it as a duty, not
worthy of glorification, but a necessary thing, that did not impugn on the
morality of the warrior).  Other civlizations have glorified it, but noone did
such with the issue of the Gunny.

> Folks like you seem to believe obedience to the laws of the land and
> following the orders of your government is more important than personal
> belief.  While that position seriously troubles me, I'm not about to
> object to you holding it.

You have not a clue as to my beliefs, in that regard.  If anything I believe
the opposite.  I'm enough of a realist to recognize propaganda when i see it
(even when it's friendly).  Usually that stuff is laughed off (when its
obvious).  I have a strong will (I'm as stubborn as they come) and have very
strong beliefs on morality, ones that military service does not conflict with.
I don't intend a life of it, but it's a useful steppingstone onto other
pursuits.  To claim it's amoral is an insult to anyone who's donned a uniform,
much less those who've shed their blood and/or died in action, especially by
one who seems to understand little of what he speaks.  Clif is in here too.

> However, when someone voiced his belief in some other position and
> objected to someone glorifying what he considered mass murder he got
> jumped on in a rather vicious fashion by numerous people.

They've objected to the slander of the Gunny as a killer, as a murderer.  He
was a good, humble man and Marine, as any biography or work or study on him
will show.  Maybe it was unintentional, in which case there was an
overreaction against Ross.  His subsequent email, in anger, had no place going
to the whole list and what generated the flames his way.

The Rules of Warfare taught are pretty stringent.  You don't shoot civilians.
You don't shoot a surrendered enemy.  It's self policing.  Sometimes people
slip through teh cracks.  Sometimes cracks are made.  The spirit of the rules
are true, though the letter and adherence might not be.  Some say a sniper
might draw close to that line.  Does submarine combat, where preferably you
destroy an enemy that doesn't know you're there (or by the time he does, he's
already in deep deep do-do)?  Does spaceship combat theorized by Traveller
assumptions?  Does planetary bombardment (ala Lucan's Black War, or the Vilani
Ziru Sirka and their ruthless subjectation with the Consolidation Wars)?  Many
will say the Reformation Coalition is moral and others will say it's not.
Yet who's right there, depends on many things.

This is all perfectly relevant to Traveller.  Most, if not the vast vast
majority) of games out there emphasize combat and warfare.  Many might not
head that way, but that's by far the most common.  I created a military
campaign so I could readily seperate the two (as well as suspend disbelief...
never could believably get Lancers in some of the missions that were
undertaken.  In T5, the likely biggest section will be on combat and what's
not on combat is before and after combat or building the tools to go to or
escape combat.  Likely, most of you ignore the moral considerations beyond
what's blatantly obvious (shooting unknown people, innocents, etc), I know I
do with my players.  RPG'ing is recreational, but some are interestede in a
deeper recreation.  'Role players' are in here, as opposed to 'roll players,'
though neither is inherently superior when the ultimate objective (recreation)
is achieved.

> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:

> > But, to my fellow vets, Honor is something we talk about
> > and understand. Major chunks of the rest of the world
> > DON'T get it. And browbeating them won't make them
> > understand.
> 
> Good sentiments initially, but what you said is that you other soldiers
> and ex-soldiers understand honor and we *don't*.  If that's your way of

In the strictly military sense, you do not or likely do not.  You're coupling
honor with principles, which doesn't necessarily follow.  In one sense, honor
is nothing more than a sign of respect and/or regard.  Etc etc.  This is just
out of a dictionary.  It can also be a sense of adherance to principles.  If
Aslan were real do you think you would be honorable to one?  A hiver? A
K'kree?  Do you eat meat?  An Egyptian Pharoah, an Aztec and European knight
(and the poor from all categories, as well) all have quite different values of
right and wrong, and would each think the other dishonorable in certain
aspects (and thus probably overall).  Maybe you can alter your own principles
to encompass anothers, but in the end, some believe that they're conceptions
are the universal ones.  Universal taboos would go in here.  Many social norms
and mores would get linked in here too, depending on where and when you are.
Unless you're actively seeking conflict, it's probably wise when in Rome do as
the Romans do.

> dishonorable person?  I doubt I'm the only person who felt insulted by
> your above statement.

Of course, the specific definitions of certain concepts is important.  Looking
them up in the dictionary (as opposed to immediately using one's own
conceptions), might not hurt, either.

You want to email me privately, feel free.  It's perfectly relevant to
Traveller, though it might not be instantly portable (which is usually the
case here, excepting "rules", designs, and the like) and some might not wish
to to witness it.  In that case, don't pay attn, I do it all the time (mostly
w/ a certain unpopular individual right now, it seems, though many times I
barely scan a digest), and I am on the TML-digest.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:49:58 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

> > In My Traveller Universe, the Emperor is also the Most Holy Patriarch
> > of the Imperial Christian Church, the state religion and dangerous
> > political lever...
> 
> Now *that* is an interesting, and truly scarey take on the
> religious/political power structure in the 3I!
> 
> While it is by no means well developed, IMTU there is a powerful
> friction between dominant chruch (the Universal Church of Sylea)

Is one of these from 101 Religions?  Sounds familiar...

> and state.  This is very deliberately modeled after the conflict
> between Thomas Becket and King Henry II.  The main difference is

Both very interesting.  For MTU, several Terran religions root up and spread
into the Vilani during the RoM, notably all of the "big ones" (Catholic &
Orthodox Christianity, reunited along with most of the other sects, Islam,
Judaism, some of the Chinese folk religions and philosophies, Mormanism,
Jehovas Witnesses, etc).  These met up w/ several Vilani religions which were
never entirely detailed, but generalized due to what follows.  A "pagan" one
based on worshipping different of the ancient warbots that fought in Vilani
prehistory, which was adopted by the merchant caste.  A Shugilli oriented one
(where they start looking like Shaman again), and one based on the ruling
caste (karuni IIRC), which is near monotheistic (what do u call it when they
worship one deity, though they believe in many, again?   Of course, they had
their fair share of atheists, agnostics, nominally faithful, cults, etc etc

During the interaction of their pre unified days, they did what religions on
Earth did 0largely, but their accord was not reached by secularization, but by
a union of the philosphies.  I didn't work it all out (even if it sounds
unviable even to me), as Vilani subjugation under teh RoM altered these
forever.  Nominally replaced throughout the Ziru Sirka, they really only took
root in certain areas.  In a few places, the local religions went underground
(like the Jews in Spain during the Reconquista) and in others, the native
religions completely disappeared.  During the Long Night, the same sort of
variation took place, leaning back towards Vilani and then native belief
systems (though none fully recovered without some visible influence).

Then of course, the long history of the Imperium and especially the Collapse
change things just as much.  By the New Era, it's a readily mixed pot, w/
certain religions (the major Terran ones, the major 3 Vilani ones, numerous
minor races ones (and/or any combination of all of the above) recognizable, in
addition to new ones and alien ones (Aslan aokhar, some Hiver & K'kree
philosophy (the latter by radical vegetarians), & Vargr, though non human
minor races remained mostly confined to their home territories), having sprung
up and further stewed the pot.

During the Rule of Man and Third Imperium, certain Emperors and Empresses were
adherents of certain beliefs, though the Alkhalakoi (sp?) dynasty was largely
remisiscent of Deism, w/ occassional head-nodding to the Unified Christianity,
Islam, Judaism, and the big 3 Vilani.  

By the time of the New Era, it's almost impossible to go anywhere w/o
offending someone.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:09:06 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Torture first, Ask later. If you remember.

>>That's why US Army interrogators don't torture EPW...for information.
>
>We do, however, give them MREs to eat.  We captured some Brits during a
>NATO excercise.  The almost rioted when they got their rations.
>- -- 
>
During an exercise in Alaska, we captured a couple of people from the
'enemy' instead of questioning them, they were searched. One had a code
book (I can't remember what we called it anymore, the one with the radio
freqs and daily code words, and alphnumeric charts.) and he also had his
'cheat sheet' of his units/platoons freqs etc on him.


>>Why is that?  Are they not trained like U.S. Troops?  I can't imagine 90% of
>>U.S. soldiers repeating more than name, rank, and ssn without the threat of
>>torture.

I am reminded of a story I was told during one of my many classes about a
pilot who was shot down and to stop his being tortured, began to tell the
VC anything he could make up. Unfortunalty when he was directed to a map
and to point out targets, everything he pointed out was in actuality a real
target. This being one day before a major U.S. offensive. His interrogators
thought he had turned to their side and wanted more from him. I'm not sure
about the rest of the story but we were cautioned about making things up
incase they turned out to be true.

>
>Because your life is in the hands of these people.
>
>Consider the situation.  Most of your friends are probably dead, you're
>cold, exhausted, and completely humiliated.  You've ben treated roughly,
>restrained and led around.  Suddenly someone speaking English is asking you
>a few simple questions.
>
good cop bad cop. (did you see the profiler episode when they had a cop try
that out? The FBI agent sighed and informed him he had to have two cops to
make it work.)


>Torture only hardened the resolve of prisoners in the Vietnam war.  And
>they will just tell you what you want to hear.

in most cases, just your presense tells the interrogator a lot. Your
uniform, your unit patches, the weapons you are using. your little notebook
in your pocket.

One year during a class on torture (I think the idea was to learn to
withstand the torture...) Each person was given some info they had to keep
to themselves. One year the tortureres hit upon a unique idea on how to
win. The class lasted past the end of the month and the torture sergeants
made up fake pay stubs/vouchers and distributed them to the 'victems'.
"WHAT! No pay due!!!! I gotta get to finance today!!"
"Sorry, unless you tell us what we want to know you ain't going anywhere."
"F%$K this! I'll tell you everything, I gotta get to finance!!!"


Latin
Radix Lecti

English
Couch Potato

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:18:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Volker Greimann wrote:

>At 01:11 26.02.99 -0900, you wrote:
>
>>> << At least we got no state income tax here in Texas.  That sales tax 
>>> > thingy is hardly even noticed.
>>
>>The sales tax in most parts of Texas is about 8.5%.  I noticed, and

>Countries in Europe have sales Taxes in of 15 %, most have 16 %. 

Well Norway has a sales tax of 23%. *shrug*

>Volker

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 01:33:52 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 

Some of you have been suggesting that it will be easy for Zhodani
interrogators to get information out of Imperial prisoners
telepathically.  Remember that using Telepathy will cost you Psionic
Strenght points (except in TNE) and that therefore you will not be able
to use it for the full duration of the interrogation.  How long you will
be able to use it depends on which version of the Traveller rules you
are using, how strong you are, and how deep you are scanning.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:45:36 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)

[snip]

(please excuse me shouting, but despite lots of polite requests the message
just doesn't seem to be getting through)

IN THE NAME OF ANYTHING ANYBODY EVER HELD SACRED, LET IT
GO. PLEASE LET THIS HATEFUL, UNGODLY, DESTRUCTIVE THREAD
DIE THE UNNATURAL DEATH IT DESERVES. THERE IS NOTHING TO
BE GAINED IN HAVING THE LAST WORD.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:11:39 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Request for Linguistic assistance

Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please tell me
how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export Control Authority". Its
for my ongoing work on the IW period

Premis: That as the Terrans start trading with the Vilani, they find a ready
market for Terran foodstuffs as luxury goods in the Ziru Sirka. As a result
Terran producers find they can get far better prices in the ZS and
domestic prices in the Terran Confederation start to skyrocket. This leads
to the CAECA which is the first expansion of TC authority outside of the
strict military sphere.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:23:44
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Rules of Warfare (Was: Moral Umbrage and all that rot)

At 04:49 AM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote:

>USMC Scout/Sniper school continues (and i'm not even going to tell you what 
>they tatoo on themselves, who knows what conclusions the peaceniks will jump 
>to then!  Hey Doug, you got one of those?

No.

I have *one* tattoo.  It is on my left bicep, and reads "Greatful Dead"
around a horribly drawn thunder skull.  I was drunk, and don't remember who
did this to me.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:08:33 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

TravelrTNE@aol.com said:

>As well as doing what's needed when it's necessary.  Claiming moral courage
>when refusing to do one's duty and obeying the laws of his land isn't
anything
>but moral bankruptcy.


How about when the laws of the land are morally bankrupt? I don't want to
add to the flamefest at all. I do want to say this. Look up Thomas Edison
High School in relation to Vietnam. It has the dual dubious "honor" of
having the most kids drafted and the highest death rate. It happens to be
around the corner from me. It's also the school my dad and my uncles went
to. They all got their higher education in Vietnam. This school also happens
to be a short walk from my house.

To get to the point, Edison is (and was) in a dirt poor neighborhood. Dirt
poor. All of the runners up for the honors it "won" are located in dirt poor
neighborhoods. Think about this for a minute, all of you who are bellowing
about honor. We were willing to send the children of our poor as expendable
product. The Vietnam era war machine was in reality a meat grinder with
McNamara, turning the crank. He saw men with families, lovers and children
as nothing more than numbers.

To those of you who served in Vietnam, my heart goes out of you all. My
father did and it breaks my heart to hear him speak of it. For those of you
who bellow loudly about the "honor" intrinsic to such a system think about
that for a few seconds.

I have no quarrel with soldiers. However, I do have quarrel with those who
choose to say that the people who dodged the draft are morally bankrupt when
the very draft and the war machine it was part of were not only morally
bakrupt but clearly and obviously evil. Any responses, flaming or otherwise,
should be sent to semo@pil.net .

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:28:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Smallpox

In mail you write:

> Hi Steve, i don't think that would be possible at all. European
> firsts contacts with native americans (as i live in Spain, i've
> studied most the Spanish settlements in South America) was really a
> highly lethal event for native americans due to the european's
> illnesses they brought and native had never had contact before.

> But american natives and europeans had been isolated about 5000 or
> 10000 years only (im not an archaeologist, does anybody know the
> exact date america was first settled?)

> Minimum is around 15k years. There's some disputed evidence pointing
to settlement as early as 40 or 50k years.

> and, although they had no direct contact all these thousands of
> years, they lived in the same world all these time, and they were
> somewhat similar before they leaved and settled america (IIRC the
> firsts settlers were north european or maybe russians across the
> Bering Strait...i don't know, does anybody?), at least more than
> Solomani and Vilani between themselves.

The Americas were probably first settled by humans during one of the
periods of low sea level during Ice Ages. At those times, you could
*walk* from one to the other (the "strait" was a land bridge). 

> The question is : is this also equal for Solomani and Vilani? When
> did they became separated by evolution, maybe hundreds of thousands
> of years? And they've been living in very different homeworlds, that
> have made evolve them inside different conditions...i think it would
> be ask too much for a human virus (or any pathogenic microorganism )
> that would also be able to pathogenice a Vilani.

A mere 100k to 200k years is not evolutionarily significant for a
species with generational times as long as humans. Remember,
diseases can cross from chimps and gorillas to humans, and we are
seperated from them by 3 to 4 *million* years of evolution.

For that matter, *all* the races of "humaniti" in Traveller are the
same species according to the most *basic* test. They can still
interbreed, so they are the same species. 

And finally, keep in mind that diseases such as influenza *regularly*
cross from humans to farm animals and back. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:50:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Smuggler's holds

In mail you write:

> Andy Holzrichter wrote:
>
>> They had a Large stateroom
>> hidden on the other side of one of their LH2 tanks.  It was completely
>> inaccessible when the ship was fueled.  Their ship was configured to carry
>> 12 months fuel for their reactors and as long as the fuel was in the proper
>> tank, you couldn't get to it.  they had to either dump some  reaction mass
>> or pump it to one of the tanks for the jump fuel.  The entire setup was
>> difficult, they always wore enviro suits when accessing it.
>
> I had a similar thought for a smuggling hold once.  But won't a good
> densitometer see that easily?  It seems a bit on the obvious side to
> escape without much scrutiny.

Depends on the resolution of the densitometer. Personally, I'd hide a
person in a special suit inside a water tank. The densities are
*awfully* close, and the life support tubes can be fine enough that the
densitometer will miss them.

LH2 is so damned light (as in "not dense") that damn little will match.

It *may* be possible to set up "baffles" that will smooth out density
variations.

> After having some experience assisting the Drug Task Force of the US
> Attorney's office and talking to FBI, Customs and DEA agents, and
> Traveller of course, I'm convinced that the only way to effective
> smuggle/hide items that you don't want to be discovered: put the
> goods where they won't be looked for.  No brilliant conclusion, of
> course.

> At the time of a search, the authorities know where you are, where
> you've been, and very often all of the areas you've had access to.
> Having seen the after effects of very thourough searches, I think
> that there is only one kind of thing that doesn't get the scrutiny
> that it may deserve.  Seemingly solid objects.

> Thats not things that appar visually solid, but those that are
> actually solid.  A normal stud/drywall 'appears' solid, but we all
> know, when we think about it, that its hollow.  But a brick wall is
> much more solid (depending on the actual brick of course).   As long
> as the normally solid object continues to behave as expected, i.e.,
> doesn't sound hollow when you tap it, etc., it will probably not be
> examined.  Ok, to starships . . .

One cute trick I've heard of involved rigging glass or mirrors such
that there was an invisible volume in the middle of a fish tank. 

> The two main methods for smuggling contraband: Hide it or Disguise it.

> The Customs Inspectors favorite tool is the Densitometer.  So, the
> goods need to be hidden among items of equal density.  Thus, the
> ideal place will vary with the item.  But it seems to me that the
> denser items, between hull and inner environment might be ideal.  No
> between stateroom walls, or overhead and underfoot.  Those places are
> begging to be looked at.  But in the small space between outer hull
> and inner wall.  Might even be worth a weak spot in the armor.

Well, there will be spots where the armor is extra thick due to joints
and the like. It might be possible to build in special "voids" there
that wouldn't weaken the armor.

Likewise, there are many volumes onboard a starship that are hazardous
for people, but may have no effect whatsoever on various types of
contraband. 

> But, IMHO, the best method is to disguise the goods.  Especially if
> you can break the goods down into component parts, and mix them with
> similar looking goods.  Gun barrels can be placed with special
> piping, etc.

The purloined letter technique is always good. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:06:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

In mail you write:

> Suffice it to say that we don't have class B starports in the general
> sense of the term.  We don't really even have class C starports: our
> reusable shuttles land in a desert (now that's class E!)

Actually, the Shuttle lands at Kennedy when the weather is favorable.
It uses an extra-long, extra-wide strip. And in an emergency they can
use most large airports.

> I suppose their refuelling stations are tailored only for shuttles.

Kennedy and Baikonur (and probably the ESA facilities in Guyana) have
to handle a lot of different vehicles. Lots of "disposable launchers". 

> That means it's a very poor general-purpose refuelling station.

Not necessarily. At worst, they'd have to make adapters between
fittings. LOX, LH2, and several types of liquid hyrdocarbon (ie
kerosone, and related fuels) are avialable. That pretty much covers the
likely fuel types. 

> I'd put Houston at a G -- the D's poor cousin: highly specialized to
> provide just enough maintenance to service a very small fleet with a
> very narrow purpose.  Sorry, no customers.

Houston is not a "port" facility at all. It's a traffic control center,
with some attached admin and testing/certification facilities. 

We have three major ports. Kennedy Space center at Cape Canaveral. The
former Soviet facilities at Baikonur. The ESA facilities in French Guyana.
The USAF facilities at Vandenberg probably rate a close fourth. 

After that we get the Chinese, Japanese and Indian launch facilities.
The rest of the countries that have satellite launching capabilities
are pretty far down the list. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:21:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

In mail you write:

>> Class D: able to refuel most interplanetary fuel systems.
>
> Won't any airport with access to water and a fuel processor meet this
> criteria?

Depends. LH2 fueled ships can get by with that. Ones that required LOX
can probably be handled as well, though an LH2/LOX ship is gonna
require a *lot* of fuel. 

Ships that require things like kerosene or liquid methane mean that you
need access to petroleum and natural gas pipelines.

>> -- I
>> suppose their refuelling stations are tailored only for shuttles.  That
>> means it's a very poor general-purpose refuelling station.  I'd put
>> Houston at a G -- the D's poor cousin: highly specialized to provide
>> just enough maintenance to service a very small fleet with a very
>> narrow purpose.  Sorry, no customers.
>>
>> In fact, the spaceports should probably be F, G, and H, rather than
>> C, D, and E, huh?
>
> I don't think there is any need to go beyond E and X.
>
> But facilities like Houston are still, IMO, going to be he focus of port
> development.  I think they're close to B, a TL-8 B. The defining 
> characteristic to me being that they build spaceworthy ships there.

Sorry, but the Houston facilities are *not* like that at all. That's
where mission control is. There are *no* associated facilities for ship
handling or repair. That's done at Kennedy. 

The facilities in Texas, Mississippi, etc are merely parts suppliers
and refurbishers. 

> Though not strictly
> a part of the starport criteria, the proximity of the Houston and Texas
> facilities to very large populations, prominent sea and air ports, makes
> it much more likely for them to be the focus of US spaceport development.
> After that, Mid Atlantic (between Boston and DC) and California would be
> priorities.

Try Puget Sound. There's this company called Boeing.... 

Also, I've discovered that there are *three* companies within 100 or
so miles of Portland that are in the reusuable ground to orbit field. 
Check the last issue of Scientific American.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #228
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 229



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: World Hooks
Re: Evolution
Don't think about the color 'blue'
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)
Re: Lifting Off
Re: World Hooks
Admin Response to Re: Clif and other such things - 
Re:  Tech Levels for T4
Re: Buildings Sourcebook?
Re: Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Milieu E21 starports
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
The  Herding World (was: World Hook 3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:55:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Hooks

In mail you write:

>Yesterday as I sat watching TV and waiting for the Siberian Death Cold(tm)
>to go away, I caught one of my favorite movies.. _Tremors_
>
>for those who haven't seen it, it concerns a small town in the middle of a
>no where desert in Nevada being attacked by powerful burrowing creatures
>that are attracted to vibrations.
>
>As I watched, a plot began to form.. the party hits a low tech, low pop
>world, and is asked to ferry an official in their air/raft to check on a
>settlement that hasn't been heard from for over a week.  Once there, the
>party finds buildings destroyed and a single body, who died of thirst, on a
>roof-top..  the first thing the critters will eat will be the party's
>air/raft.

It's especially good for the "little details". Things like the *noisy*
freezer starting up and the people *instantly* realizing that it's
sending "come and get it" to the critters. Much mayhem ensues as they
all rush to get to it and pull the plug...

And the fact that the things *learn*.

Oh yeah, keep in mind the complaint of the town's resident survivalist.
"Damn! I didn't figure on having to shoot thru *dirt*!". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:36:55 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Evolution

I just ran across two bits of counter-evidence.

I read that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity of any human
population.

Also, I saw a bit on TV about an African-American couple who have had three
(!) "white" children.  Just how they define "white" was unspecified, this
being TV, but I think it's quite possible that Vilani, like Euros, could grow
paler over the millennia.

Wasn't it Louis Farrakhan who taught that caucasians were the result of alien
genetic experiments?
  --S

>Here's a suggestion: assume the transplanted Terrans were dark skinned,
>i.e, high melanin.  Thats certainly reasonable I think.  Then assume that
>the solar radiation isn't as great on Vland as on Terra (based on V&V
>that might be fair based on the given Energy Absorption of Vland at
>74% that of Terra.  The implication is that Vilani need to absorb more
>energy,
>thus less melanin, and lighter skin colors.  So, darker skin would be
>unknown
>among later Vilani.  Of course, handwaving interfertility, mixing with
>Terrans
>means you can have any combination you want.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:30:51 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Don't think about the color 'blue'

>Another thought (pun intended), would the Imperial military have
>standard issue suicide capsules?


Another thought: would the Imperium have telepaths of its own?  Oh, heavens
no, that would be immoral!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:49:56 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> Some of you have been suggesting that it will be easy for Zhodani
> interrogators to get information out of Imperial prisoners
> telepathically.  Remember that using Telepathy will cost you Psionic
> Strenght points (except in TNE) and that therefore you will not be able
> to use it for the full duration of the interrogation.  How long you will
> be able to use it depends on which version of the Traveller rules you
> are using, how strong you are, and how deep you are scanning.

Nothing prevents the Zhodani from using an interrogation *team.* 
Three skilled telepaths, and you're done.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:47:14 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please tell me
>how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export Control Authority". Its
>for my ongoing work on the IW period

I have unfournatly no knowledge of French or Spanish, but I couldn't resist 
to translate it to Norwegian.

	Konf[oe]derasjons Kontrollmyndighet for Landbrukseksport

The [oe] is a o with a slash through it. KKL would be the proper acronym.

>Andrew etc.

PS. Is the scond turn of the Circle Sea soon finished?

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:07:40 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

> Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please tell me
> how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export Control Authority". Its
> for my ongoing work on the IW period

A literal translation to Spanish is "Autoridad Confederal para el 
Control de Exportaciones Agricolas," but it sounds a bit strange 
(specially the "confederal" word, which is rarely used, "federal" 
being preferred, but referring to Federations). I would rather 
use "Direccion General de Exportaciones Agricolas."

- --------
Btw, regarding your previous post, the best way to let a thread die 
is start other, more interesting threads. So keep posting on your 
Milieu and encourage the world hooks... ;-)
- --------

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:19:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> Separate quibble of long standing:  Given the long separation of the
> Ancient-transplanted humans from the Terran ones, why the heck are we
> still stuck with the terminology of "races"?  Even if we assume they're
> all derived from Homo sapiens, it's harder to justify claiming they're all
> Homo sapiens sapiens.  

As long as they are still inter-fertile, races *is* the correct term.
Sub-species is possible, but carries too many conotations that could
make it even worse than "race".

>> Isn't it even likely that some of these sub-species will not be 
>> inter-fertile with each other or modern Solomani?
>
> There's some Ancient-meddled human species trailing of the 3I who were
> designed to be non-interfertile, but I forget their name and publication
> source.

It would take either Ancient meddling or a *very* hostile environment
that provided *heavy* selection pressure. Remember, it's been around 3
million years since the split with the chimps & gorillas. And yet it's
suspected that we may still be close enough genetically to have "mule"
type crosses (ie progeny possible, but sterile). 

Nobody has yet *tried* a cross, even in vitro, because the ethical and
moral implications are *really* messy.

> And then, of course -- if you believe they were actually created by the
> Ancients -- there's the Sayat :)  Though, y'know, they believe that
> they're the original human species and that all the others were
> contaminated by fiendish bat-winged ALIEN SEX FIENDS.

Fun guys from Yuggoth, no doubt?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:28:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)

In mail you write:

> On 02/28/99 at 04:40 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" 
> <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:
>
>>> I do the same thing. In PBEM's I do *all* the rolling. FTF, I do most of 
> the routine stuff and the players stay in
>>> character. For combat and at "crunch time" the players roll.
>
>>For PBEMs there is no alternative, right? How do players roll in a 
>>PB-E-M??? 

In a PBEM I'm currently in, the mailing-list software supplies 5
"super-percentile" rolls in a header-line on every message when it
forwards it to the list. The rolls are in the range 00.00 to 99.99. It
works ok for us. We sometimes post with "branches" based on "if I made
the first roll, I do, this. If I fail, I do *that*..."

Since we are doing a "pulp hero" type game at the moment, we have yet
to need *all* the rolls. The server can provide as many as 10 rolls if
I recall correctly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:37:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lifting Off

In mail you write:

> On 27 Feb, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote:
>> >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:03:00
>> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>> >Subject: Re: Lifting off
>> >
>> >In designing Lunion, I've found that most Traveller starships have top
>> >atmospheric speeds woefully short of escape velocity.  I assume that CG
>> >drive help with this problem, But I need a handwave.
>> >
>
>> No need to get fancy. Top atmospheric speed is a function of drag,
>> which in turn depends on atmospheric pressure. Top atmospheric speeds
>> are usually based on 1 atm; as the ship climbs, the atmospheric
>> pressure drops and the top speed increases. At the level of accuracy
>> of a handwave (i.e., I haven't done the math), this should be
>> sufficient to allow them to fly into orbit. Ultimately, drag is
>> no longer a factor and you're using acceleration and space
>> maneuvering statistics instead.
>
> Another point is that a Traveller ship doesn't need to reach escape 
> velocity.
>
> Escape velocity just means that if you turn off the engines, you won't
> fall back to the planet. But a Traveller ship has engines that run
> for weeks at 1G, so it can match the surface gravity, provide a little
> more thrust and achieve a low orbit after an hour or two if required.
> Except that, technically, it's not orbitting, it's hoverring.

It also helps to remember that the gravity *drops* as your altitude
increases. At half a diameter, it's 1/4th what it was at the surface. 

At 100 miles up on an 8000 mile diameter (size 8) world, it's it's 95%
of surface gravity.  (4000/4100)^2=.9518...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:01:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Hooks

In mail you write:

> Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>
>>> 3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
>>> technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world
>>> is fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have
>>> been using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their
>>> beasts for centuries now.
>
>>    So the world is balkanized, but the "countries" do not have
>>any territories, but rather "own" and follow large animal flocks
>>which are difficult to control (this being the reason for
>>nomadism in the first place
>
>      Not so much nations as clans or tribes. TL-7 means you have
> options of fencing the animals in, using railway or truck to move
> them to market, aircraft to follow them, using miniaturized tags
> to identify and locate individuals, coordinate operations by
> radio, carrying veterinary or medical kits, and various
> possibilities for control. 
>      There would probably also be good reasons for not using some
> of these options, such as: the animals are necessarily migratory, 
> the animals treat humans as predators and show strong,
> unpredictable fight-or-flight behavior in their presence.

You just reminded me of a story from Analog a few years back. It's a
great idea. 

The sotory is set on a *very* windy planet. And in an area where *huge*
sand dunes migrate from one end of a large "valley" to the other.
Basicly you get a day or so of calm as the seasons change, then the
wind starts blowing in the other direction. And the dunes start back to
the other end of the "valley". 

It's miles wide most of the time but there's one choke point where it's
less than a mile wide (passes between *tall* cliffs of *hard* rock).
And, of course, it's hundreds of miles long. And the dunes migrate at
rates from miles per day to mutiple miles per *hour*, as the wind speed
varies.

Anyway, theree are some sort of valuable mineral agglomerations that
form inside the dunes and can be harvested from the trailing edges
sometimes. The sort of thing that isn't big enough for a majore
industry, but will keep a few people living comfortably in spite of
weird expenses.

The "prospector" has a sort of vehicle that "rides" along with the
dunes. 

Anyway. Some offworld idiots decide that there's some reason for
building in one end of the "valley", and they try building a barrier in
the choke point. The prospector tries to warn them, but they think he
is *threatening* them. 

Anyway, in the end, the prospector manages to rescue most of the
offworld idiots as the dunes turn their barrier and equipment into just
more grit. 

As he points out, a dune weighs a *lot* and acts like a fluid. A very
*dense* fluid. With abrasive properties. So in effect they were trying
to dam a river of *rock*. It just kept piling up until something gave.
And then the high speed flow thru the gap ripped chunks free from the
sides and so on. 

When they got a chance to look at the gap after the dunes were past,
there were traces of the concrete and rebar. Worn smooth as the rest of
the rock, and flush with the harder rock....

The prospector was chuckling over all the extra metal he'd be picking
up as the dunes "dropperd" the remains. :-)

I'm sure folks can see lots of possibilitities in the situation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:35:28 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Admin Response to Re: Clif and other such things - 

At 06:25 PM 2/28/99 -0600, William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote:
>Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
>important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.
>(I have, to my internal satisfaction, answered this - _maybe_ someday
>I'll share it ...)

Let me, as the passive list admin thrown in my 2 cr. on the subject.

People form opinions on people based on first impressions.  Clif 
unfortunately got off on a bad note with the list.  I get a lot of 
complaints about him, but when I go read the threads that he is involved 
in, I see a lot of "borderline" behavior.  Its more on the line of "he 
should be ignored" rather than "he should be punished" type of stuff.  I've 
seen far worse flame bait posted by others.

I feel that Clif's biggest fault is he tends to fly off topic easily and he 
gets emotional in his posts.  His language rarely goes beyond the "PG" 
level.  I think that even a lot of his statements are even ones that are 
sometimes meant in jest.

Where did he go wrong?  He got off on a sour note.  I think the list needs 
to go back and re-evaluate his "on-topic" posts and see if they have merit 
and ask if he is contributing to the list, maybe not in a way that makes 
people happy, but is he contributing?

He has a right to say things that we may not like, as long as he does not 
hinder the welfare of the list (which includes off topic posts and flame 
bait).  As I said earlier, he is on the borderline.

Yet, many of you have vocalized that he needs to go.  He is the only one to 
ever draw this kind of comments.  Part of community is everyone getting 
along and if he is being counter-productive then we have an issue.  We have 
to balance "Freedom of Speech/Expression" with "Civil Order".

I would be interested in hearing how you feel on the matter off 
line.  Please mail me off line with a subject of "Clif Opinions".  I want 
to even hear from Clif on the matter.

I however want everyone of you to sit back and evaluate the whole situation 
and see if its just a got off to a wrong start situation and if we need to 
be a bit more tolerant.

Thanks
Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:01:16 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Tech Levels for T4

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Can someone tell me where I can find a good breakdown of the various
> technologies found in the different Tech Levels for T4?

Try MT's Referee's Companion, it has a whole chapter on that an a 
nice two-page summary. Yeah, OK, it's for MT, but there is not much 
of a difference.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:04:00 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Buildings Sourcebook?

> From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>

> >Does anyone know of a good resource for Traveller milieu buildings at
> >different tech levels?  Preferably one with nice architectural drawings
> 
> I would love to see one.
> At present I am working on several different floor plans for things like
> apartments, offices, etc that I will post sooner or later.

Didn't SGS release some things? A corporate building or so? I've only 
seen the ads, but not the products.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:28:08 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? (was Re: Kewl hit location...)

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:24:38 -0800 (PST) Sword Worlder
<swordworlder@yahoo.com> writes:
>See Space Gamer, issue #74 (May '85) for an article entitled "Role
>Playing Dracula", by W. Peter Miller
>
>
>
>
>---Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>> > (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
=========

Of course they do, but you need to go to *THAT OTHER LIST* to talk about
them.

8^)

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:13:48 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
> To counter this the Imperials would give trainning to all personel with
> a security clearance on controlling their thoughts.  Maybe even minimal
> training to all military personnel BtC.  This might work to a degree
> against reading surface thoughts but how would the Imperials try to
> counter the mind probes of the Zhodani?
> Any thoughts or comments?

Location: Imperial Military Academy at <withheld>.
Date: 1106.
Subject: "Interrogation 404"

	"...thus, in the event of a new war against the Zhodani Consulate, 
it is foreseen that all operatives and commanding officers carrying 
key informations must undergo special training and a set of... 
ahem... minor modifications."
	"Please look at the screen. This tooth implant is the first and 
easier one."
	"In case an operative is captured, and interrogation is 
unavoidable, he will simply strongly bite, so that the implant, which 
is actually a microcomputer with a neural field transmitter, starts 
actind. Through the combination of nerual broadcasting and the relase 
of the Erycine drug into the subject's organism, most of the recent 
operative's memories will be erased."
	"In case of extremely important informations, Erycine will sadly 
have to be substituted by a more... definitive compound"
	"The scond modification..."

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:06:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

On 01 Mar, Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Of course, this means crusades can be legal.

A thought about the crusades:

Whilst it is common to think of the crusades as something that happened
against Islam in Palestine, that only appears to be a small part of the
scenario.

The first crusade "liberated" Jerusalem just after the Christian Arabs
appear to have gained control.

The fourth crusade sacked Constantinople, centre of the Greek Orthodox
church to "protect it" from the Turks.

Many of the French crusaders are occupied in unifying France by wiping
out the Albigensian heresay from the South of France.

I don't feel that these points should be seen as church bashing, they
are just examples of what can happen when idealism meets the real world:

The fourth crusade was seen by the Venetians (who provided the transport)
as a free supply of troops to attack their main trade rivals. Once outside
Constantinople, the crusaders could either beseige it or be left there
by the Venetians.

The popularity of Albigensian Crusades (at least with the crusaders)
comes from the following observation: if you had estates in the North
of France, what would you rather do - garrison some faraway desert or
add some more estates on the South Coast?

ObTrav:

So the Holy Imperial Emperor has sanctioned crusades against the
unbelievers, promising life eternal and all sins forgiven?

Where do you go?

Well a quick look at the map indicates clearly that the Spinward Marches
are under the greatest threat. Even if the region is clearly dominated
by those four TL15 high population Imperial worlds. Even if border
Vargr and Aslan communities are pro-Imperial. Even if the Sword Worlders
are no real threat and the Zhodani consider the region a quiet backwater.

So I'd go there, with the whole Corridor fleet if possible, and not
stop until every world had an HIE naval task force "protecting" it,
those high tech, high pop worlds weren't and everyone was on a war
budget with large border fleets.

Next, when the merchants in Core fund the Core fleets, they don't want
to send them against the Zhodani, since the Corridor fleet can easily
protect them (if only it stays in Corridor), they want to keep it local
and enhance their immediate trade goals, say in the Vland sector lose
the Vilani Megacorps with their policies base on the First Imperium and
the "One True Way" of the 3I will be seen to everyone.

Then, when looking for somewhere to extend your fiefdom, why not take
your fleet down into the Solomani Confederacy and free its peoples
from heresy. If every Imperial noble does their part and grabs a few
worlds it will soon see the light.

Finally, there has to be someone who will understand the true meaning
of the HIE's words and take a fleet into the Two Thousand Worlds to
break their ban on beef imports.

..

The result of all this?
Well it could be a strong, centrally controlled and unified Imperium.
It could be a race to see which of its enemies reaches Core first.

Even the first option might only lead to a religious civil war in
the next millenia over monetarism versus Keynesianism (sp?).

(All this comes from loosely using Medieval France as a model instead
 of 18th century UK)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:12:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

On 01 Mar, revtks <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:

<snip>
I don't use BL but I do have it to hand. Prepare for someone with
a better understanding to disagree with what follows.

> 1.  Can missiles be targeted with beam weapons at greater than short
> range?

Yes, although they tend to miss a lot.

> And if so, is this an effective defense strategy?

It depends. If you have the energy spare, lots of factor 1 weapons
and your opponent's ships have armour, then your point defense
gunners might as well do something.
In practice, most optimised point defence weapons are designed to
shoot missiles at short range, so they are powered by trickle charge
batteries (to reduce demands on power plants) with short range focussing
and beam pointers (to reduce cost and size) so instead of missing with
100 shots per turn at long range, they wait and fire 8000 shots/turn for
a fraction of a turn and kill it just in time.
(T4 stats. Assumes a ten "barrel" mount, optically focussed, 60Mj X-ray
point defence laser in a standard turret. 1.873MCr, 3std, 63.25tons,
39.23MW, area 0.71m2, rof 100/800, includes workstation and MFD.
USP (+6) 1/6-4-3-2[10,100/19-10-5-2](SR)
CUSP (+1,+6) 12:12 PDR+7)

> Is adding extra MFD's to allow turrets to fire individually a good idea?

Yes for point defence, you don't need lots of factor to kill a missile.

> 2.  When turrets are grouped into batteries, why is the damage rating
> lower than would be expected if the damage values were simply
> cumulative?  (Is the use of MFD's for individual turrets a way to
> retain higher overall damage values?)

Its a log scale (approximately)

> 3.  Are Sandcasters effective defenses in Brilliant Lances, and if so
> what are good Rules of Thumb for incorporating them into ship defenses?

pass

> 4.  What is (are) the damage value(s) of "standard" LasDet missiles in
> BL?

1/25-80 (ie 80 points, losing 80/25 (3.2) points for each point of armour)

> 5.  What are some recommended minimum ratings for Armor, Jump Capability,
> and Manuever G's?

Jump 1-2 for merchants, 3-4 for naval task forces, 5 for naval commerce
raiders and 6 for couriers.
Manoeuvre 1 for merchants (plus 1-2G contra grav), 6 for Naval ships, 8 for
fighters.
Armour rating 20-60 for merchants, 1000+ for warships (equivalent factors
are 0-20 and 100).

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:28:28 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 starports

So what do you all think?  Is it better to delete the port list and
insert a paragraph about the kinds and number of spaceports on
Earth?  Does it even make sense to try to enumerate all starports
on Earth in the 21st century?  Perhaps it's better to just let the
referee decide what to do about that.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:38:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

For anyone who's interested in looking at a well-detailed hominid
conspecies, you might check out this URL:
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/624/ethno.html

The Nowans are descendants of Homo erectus in the contemporary world,
living on a large North Pacific island.  There's a _lot_ of detail here
that could lend itself well to spurring on Traveller "minor human 'race'"
development.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:42:29 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: The  Herding World (was: World Hook 3)

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

> >> 3. A nomadic, animal herding culture has had access to high
> >> technology from the beginning of human settlement. The world
> >> is fairly inhospitable and sparsely populated, but people have
> >> been using TL-7 (plus or minus) technology to help herd their
> >> beasts for centuries now.

I wrote:

> >    So the world is balkanized, but the "countries" do not have
> >any territories, but rather "own" and follow large animal flocks
> >which are difficult to control (this being the reason for
> >nomadism in the first place

Thad added:
>      Not so much nations as clans or tribes. TL-7 means you have
> options of fencing the animals in, using railway or truck to move
> them to market, aircraft to follow them, using miniaturized tags

Mmmm... no, these guys have nomadism in their blood, never knew 
otherwise. So, there is no fixed location for a market, markets 
happen when flocks meet, where they meet. TL7 means you could have 
railways, but railways are useless without fixed lcoations to 
connect. Trucks? Using which fuel? Fossil fuel would require some 
fixed facility to extract it, and would give the owners (now not 
nomads) too much power... unless the trucks use alcohol fuel (of 
course, not tremendously efficient) and this alcohol is refined form 
some native vegetables that you can find overall. So, while the 
flocks eat, the humans collect these plants to make fuel...

Of course, maybe that sort of fuel is not enough to power *aircraft,* 
but they could be using Lighter-Than-Air aircraft to follow and 
controls the flocks.

> to identify and locate individuals, coordinate operations by
> radio, carrying veterinary or medical kits, and various
> possibilities for control. 
>      There would probably also be good reasons for not using some
> of these options, such as: the animals are necessarily migratory, 

	Yes, yes! They tried to fence them in the past, but the animals die 
in captivity. Nobody can help it.

> the animals treat humans as predators and show strong,
> unpredictable fight-or-flight behavior in their presence.

	Even better.

World Hook 3.1: As above, striclty nomadic, with "harvested fuel."

World Hook 3.2: As above, but there is a central place where fossil 
fuel is extracted. Market takes place there, usually twice a year. A 
big event that attracts even offworld buyers... hence the starport 
has developed around here.

World Hook 3.3: As 3.1, but the world inhabitants are Aslan 
Tahiwiteakhtau who now consider the number of animals owned a measure 
of personal and clan honor, and not the size of land owned.

World Hook 3.4: As 3.1, but the world inhabitants are Vargr who have 
their personal charisma tied to their herding ability ("Stampede? In 
your flock? That's a -3 to Char!"

OK, shall we talk about a UWP range? Or expand to 3.1, 3.2, ..., 3.6 
and write them down in the old Adventure Hooks format? ;-)

I have to put a world like this Beyond the Extents...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
(who is stepping out of the lurking mode to help counteract some 
threads)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #229
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 230



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Polities of the Long Night (Was: Quarterly hate-fest)
Re: Color of scout ships
Humour
Riot control and the Abyss (was Re: Clif and other such things)
PBEM Die Rolling (Was: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox))
Re: Evolution
Settling the Spinward Marches (Was: What's green...)
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
RE: Smuggler's holds
Bye, just a quick off topic note of little importance
Re: Evolution
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports
Re: big mucking trees
Re: Admin Response to Re: Clif and other such things -
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Space Dock users...
Re: Evolution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:43:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Thomas Vickers wrote:

> >In addition, the level of social contamination that the mind probing
> >Zhodani would have to deal with should they investigate the inner
> >workings of a imperial mind would likely leave them with a series
> >of distracting and untasteful thoughts.
> 
> Lets remember the Kzin telepaths in the "Known Space" stories.
> They loathed reading human "grass eaters" minds.
> Some of the things they found there really made their jobs diffcult or
> impossible.
> Same thing might apply to the Zho's.
> Imagine trying to read a Vilani's mind and getting some really horrible
> images of eating your Uncle Duke :)
> Things are never as easy as you think.

I think it's explained pretty convincingly in the old CT material (that
JTAS article, for example) that it's the social expression of Imperial
immorality that makes the Zhos' goatees bristle, just by itself.  By the
time they start reading your mind, they're presumably used to dealing with
visc^H^Hcious little beasts like the Impies, and not much is going to
shock them.

Kenji 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:46:12 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Polities of the Long Night (Was: Quarterly hate-fest)

MJ Dougherty writes:

>On a more serious note; does anyone have any hard data on polities which
>survived into or appeared during the Long Night. There's a little bit in MT,
>but is there more somewhere that I've forgotten about?

I don't have my notes here, but from memory:

There's the four in the Solomani Rim (Old Earth Union, Dingir League, Easter
Concord, Vega). Magyar is known to have had quite a few, but IIRC there's no
canonical names or other data. The Celestial League straddled Dark Nebula and
Reavers' Deep. The Principality of Caledonia and several others in Reavers'
Deep appeared during the Long Night. The Sindalian Empire of Trojan Reach
appeared during the Long Night and was destroyed by civil war some centuries
later. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:01:36 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

>Yet another flame-fest waiting for resurrection! :-)
>
>I seem to recall someone (Bruce, probably, as resident sensor expert)
>pointing out that black paint made no difference at typical starship
>combat ranges, and therefore military ships could be any colour they liked
>without degrading performance.

In Bruce's sensor rules the default hullsurface is 99% black (ie it absorbs
all but 1% of incident EM radiation) so at least there they should be
black. At least military ships such as Navy, SDB, Scouts should probably be
matte black but those refs who like nicely coloured ships might say that
all ships have broadband chamelon surface that will become black when in
combat but otherwisely they can sport all sorts of markings.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 07:10:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Humour

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: [OT]  Canadian insecurity? 
...
>Really?  C'mon... everyone know *.dk stands for... um... shoot... Dakota,

  To be fair, the number of people on this and other lists that can't figure out
where other people are from is hardly believable. I suppose that assuming that
everyone else in the US isn't totally unreasonable, but the powers of
deduction displayed aren't exactly staggering; OTOH, it probably just
doesn't occur to most.

...
>It never ceases to amuse and amaze me that a few of the vocal Canadians on
>this list are so quick to point out they're not dominated in some (or any or
>every, take your pick) way by their neighbor to the south.  The few Canadians
...

  Naw, I just figured that pulling your leg would be much more productive than
genuinely participating in the absurdity passing for a discussion just now.

>recent event to probably necessitate such).  They're in NATO, no?  Did they
...
>happen in the relatively near future and even Canada would respond, though I
>guess I'm willing to be convinced they wouldn't.

  Oh gods, you do know where Europe is, at least? (although to be fair the edges
get a bit fuzzy :> )

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:17:30 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Riot control and the Abyss (was Re: Clif and other such things)

>Lets face facts - almost none of us like Clif - So to me the really
>important question beomes "WHY?" Please answer this first folk.
>(I have, to my internal satisfaction, answered this - _maybe_ someday
>I'll share it ...)


Hello all, me again. Point, the first:

Let's face facts -- this is the Traveller Mailing List -- so for me the
really important question becomes "WHY DO THREADS LIKE THIS GET STARTED?"
At least have the dignity to mark such a post with an Off-Topic (OT:)
header.

Of course, the same could be said of many threads, I suppose, but it seems
to me most apparent with these gratuitously vitriolic posts. At least I
learn something from the M113 v. Bradley/Near-c rock/Pirate/Virus
zombie-threads. BTW, has anyone else noticed that Near-c rock is
essentially identical to Near-crock? As in "this argument is a Near-crock
of ****?" :-) (or for Ross, :) :P

Point, the second:

Ian, I *love* the HePlar sound system. Do you think such a thing is
possible with chemical rockets (for the cost-conscious consumer with
short-term usage needs?)

Point, the third. ObTrav (remember that?):

A few weeks ago someone mentioned the Abyss, that area of space in the
Spinward Marches that seemed to claim it's larger-than-fair-share of
jumping starships. Has anyone developed this area beyond what was in the
original Challenge article? I am interested in both "rational" and
"non-rational" explanations (i.e., statistical anomalies, jumpspace
distortin, or a plot to gather food for the Great Old Ones) of the
phenomena.

My own explanation was a supernatural one, but then I was running my Star
Wars-esque MegaTraveller space opera at the time. I'd like to hear other
peoples ideas, stories, or what-have-you, because I'd like to run a story
there the next time I referee a game and would love to hear better, more
creative ideas than my own. Or at least shamelessly steal ideas so I can
make a better, more creative story of my own. ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:26:32 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: PBEM Die Rolling (Was: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox))

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> post? 
> 
> 
> Eris
> 

	I am planning on trying the die-rolling server for my TNEC PBEM as
soon as the situation presents itself....  Right now we are still very
"opening stages" that are all pure role-playing.  I like the die-rolling
server option best, as it is the ultimate neutral third party. 

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:23:45 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Evolution

traveller@mpgn.com writes:
>Also, I saw a bit on TV about an African-American couple who have had
>three
>(!) "white" children.  Just how they define "white" was unspecified, this
>being TV, but I think it's quite possible that Vilani, like Euros, could
>grow
>paler over the millennia.

I suspect part of this could actually be how they defined "black", which
used to mean having _any_ black ancestor.  I think "octaroons" had one
black great-grandparent to seven white great-grandparents, for example,
but were still considered "black".  Given some recessive traits, and...

None of this really affects me personally.  I've had poor service when on
dates with someone with different pigmentation, but then I've had porr
service by myself as well.  Fortunately most of my kids don't seem to
consider skin pigmentation that important either. (Religious differences
are, though.) 

I have noticed that American TV doesn't seem to show "mixed race" couples
at all, but then as I watch very little American TV this could well be
sampling error.

In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
idea from David Brin.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:28:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Settling the Spinward Marches (Was: What's green...)

StevenA201@aol.com writes:

>IMTU, folks in the Spinward Marches have mostly Terran names.  This isn't for
>political reasons, it's esthetic.  Earth has hundreds of cool languages from
>which to choose names, while Vland has only one.  I find it dull if everyone
>is named Eneri.
> 
>So I let about 20% of my NPCs have Vilani names, in amongst the Japanese and
>Africans and whatever.  But I need a justification for why so many Terrans and
>so few Vilani settled in the Marches and smallpox (or influenza) seemed like a
>good answer.

Here's my take on that. It is not 100% canonical, but I don't think it
contradicts any canon.

Due to a phenomenon known as 'national re-emergence' a lot of population
groups on planets in the rimward part of the defunct Rule of Man dug up
(or, in many cases, reinvented) their national roots during the Long Night
and used that as a focus to promote unity. During the Pacification
Campaigns these groups were among those most opposed to Imperial rule. One
of the many ways the various Imperial commanders had to deal with such
groups (the gamut ran from ignoring them to exterminating them) was to
provide transportation to areas outside the Imperium. Thus most of the
early settlers in the Spinward Marches were anti-imperial people with
agressively Solomani background.

Also, remember that many Vilani adopted Terran culture (presumably including
naming conventions) during the Rule of Man. 

As for the Plague of Duskir, my opinion is that on a few planets close
enough to Terra to get millions of Terran emigrants, the result was the
aforementioned reversal of Vilani to Solomani population ratios, but on
most planets further away it didn't happen. The few instances got most
of the publicity, however, and are the ones that are remembered 3000
years later. Typical urban legend stuff.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:33:16 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Roger Barr wrote:

> >> > (Oh, and do Vampires ever appear in Traveller?)
> >> > 
> 
> 
> They have in my games. it is a terrifying kind of thing to encounter in 
> a hard science kind of game...
> 
> Bad News: Silver and Crosses don't work.
> 
> Good News: Guns do!
> :)
> 
> Roger Barr
> 

	I have two in my Traveller campaign... which are the only ones who
got out of the several hundred in my Cyberpunk campaign...  However, with
the advent of plasma-temp weapons (hafla and worse), Vampires in any sf
game I run keep very quiet and try not to be too obnoxious about there
depredations.
	Star-faring just adds more complications for a Vampire...  *way*
too easy to be directly exposed to full brilliance starlight...  Which
also means that the average Vampire drops into topor as soon as the ship
he'she is on clears the atmosphere...  So they don't get around much with
out willing help...  Enough compound interest spread around hirlings goes
a long way...  =)
	Thats MTU, YMMV, YAAA, ETC, BYE

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:32:31 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

This is starting to read like the "Screwtape Letters".

- --Clif
>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
>>
>> Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
>> allowed freedom.
>
>Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
>slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.
>
>We respectfully request full military intervention.
>
>Faceless Minion
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:31:24 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

> > 5.  What are some recommended minimum ratings for Armor, Jump
> > Capability, and Manuever G's?
> 
> Jump 1-2 for merchants, 3-4 for naval task forces, 5 for naval commerce
> raiders and 6 for couriers. Manoeuvre 1 for merchants (plus 1-2G contra
> grav), 6 for Naval ships, 8 for fighters. Armour rating 20-60 for
> merchants, 1000+ for warships (equivalent factors are 0-20 and 100).

I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I 
miss something completely, here?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:48:55 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Smuggler's holds

On someone else's ship.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

People are more easily led than driven.  (Jewish Proverb)



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Andy Holzrichter [SMTP:jhereg@southwind.net]
> Sent:	27 February 1999 08:24
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Smuggler's holds
> 
> >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:26:56 -0900
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> >Subject: Re: Interstellar polities in the Long Night (was Re:
> Quarterly 
> >hate-fest?)
> snip
> >[Don't tell the players but Kedil class starships often come with an
> >extra 1 ton smuggling hold hidden in the engine room & almost
> impossible
> >to detect via scan when the ships fushion plant is operational.
> Access
> >to this hold is tight & items stored in it should have a maximum
> volume
> >of 100kl each.]
> 	Here's a good option for a smuggling hold for you. If you don't
> use it
> much its a waste of cargo space, but... <g> We had a group of
> characters
> who didn't care much for certain Imperial entanglements.  Mostly they
> just
> carried small arms and such they didn't want traced to them or
> questioned.
> Occasionally they carried small amounts of questionable cargo.  It was
> quite excellent for hiding a character at one point who had worn out
> his
> welcome in a system.  They were boarded on exiting the system.  The
> crew of
> the customs pinnace performed a fruitless inspection.  Where did they
> hide
> the cargo you ask? Now that is a good question.  They had a Large
> stateroom
> hidden on the other side of one of their LH2 tanks.  It was completely
> inaccessible when the ship was fueled.  Their ship was configured to
> carry
> 12 months fuel for their reactors and as long as the fuel was in the
> proper
> tank, you couldn't get to it.  they had to either dump some  reaction
> mass
> or pump it to one of the tanks for the jump fuel.  The entire setup
> was
> difficult, they always wore enviro suits when accessing it. 
> 
> 	On this topic.  What's the best place anyone has come up with
> for
> smuggling cargo on their ship?
> 
> 								Andy
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:40:01 +0100 (CET)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Bye, just a quick off topic note of little importance

The last political flame fest was the drop for me, when the signal to
noise ratio drops this low for a list I simply no longer find it worth the
time reading (and once in a while trying to contribute).

So, bye and try and enjoy the game more than politics when using this
list.

To make it short: It's a game for crying out loud!

(Any replies to this directed to me must be through private mail, for
obvious reasons. :/ )
- -- 
Steinar -GMing two Traveller campaigns and having a whole lot of fun in
	the process

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:47:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Eris Reddoch writes:

>We are told that the minor races were transplanted about 400,000
>years ago, correct?

Incorrect. That is, we are told that in several places, but those places
are incorrect. The original information about the Ancients was that they
arose around -310,000 and lasted till around -290,000. The transplantations
from Earth took place around -300,000 (but the Ancients visited Earth 'a
number of times', so it could have been spread out a couple of thousand
years).

>Given anthropology's current thought, just what sub-species of hominids
>got transplanted?  Surely not homo sapiens sapiens! We didn't exist yet! ;->

You're working from an unconcious assumption that the Traveller universe
is identical to the Real universe. This is not true. In the Traveller
universe Homo sapiens HAD evolved by -300,000. Proof: Vilani was removed
from Earth in -300,000 and are interfertile with Homo sapiens. QED. (And
don't ask me to explain why G:T insists that the Zhodani are a separate
species).

>This means that the Vilani, Zhodani, and all the other minor human
>races will have evolved along separate lines for a long enough time
>to have marked physical differences from Solomani humans.

I think that is a given. All the different races are said to have adapted
in various ways. Darrians, Zhodani, Vilani, Geonee, Suerrat...

>Isn't it even likely that some of these sub-species will not be
>inter-fertile with each other or modern Solomani?

Quite likely. 
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:00:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

>We have three major ports. Kennedy Space center at Cape Canaveral.

Where I live.  And let me tell you... The Space Shuttle certainly does not
fit into that "Ship Liftoff" Scenario recently posted.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:04:44 +0100
From: "Leszek Karlik aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: big mucking trees

On 27 Feb 99 08:24:18 GMT, wmacdude@concentric.net (Evyn MacDude) 
disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by writing:

[...]
>> >But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign 
>> >when we need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the 
>> >trees as the Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  
>> >(they weigh 1600kg)

>> I don't wanna think about what''s up the food chain from these 
>> critters...

>I do. I am working on a Hell world with a large aboral habitat.

Isn't it perchance called 'Kashyyyk'? ;>

Leslie

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - leslie@zwieracz.terrorgarden.waw.pl; 
   YASD(TM); FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ TANSTAAFL;
  GL/O d- s+: a20 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M- PS+(+++) 
  PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! r-- !y+*
    Stamp out vandalism or I'll break your windows. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:53:38 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Admin Response to Re: Clif and other such things -

I have no opinion on Clif.  It does seem that you lot pile on him quite a
bit, but on the other hand what little I've heard of his political and social
opinions tells me that I have no interest in hearing more.  Personally I
just use my "delete" button on 95% of his posts, without reading them.
Just as I use my "delete" button on 95% of everyone else's posts, without
reading them.  I find this tactic to be very effective, and it doesn't require
that I work up a good mad at anyone.

Take this as a gentle chiding, if you will. . .but since I've been on the TML
I've found the signal-to-noise ratio to be unusually low even as such things
go.  If I were not writing material for G:T, and therefore obliged to keep at
least some contact with the Traveller fan community, I would have
unsubscribed quite some time ago.

Sorry if this comes across as a bit snooty.  I'm getting old enough that
I no longer have the patience necessary to be diplomatic at all times.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:16:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> The Vilani would evolve in a different environment for 390,600 years
> (by the MT Imperial Encyclopedia dates).  After that they begin to
> colonize other systems and would be subject to even further
> diversification based on the different environments (to the extent
> they interact with their environment anyway).
> 
> Thats 375600 years, give or take, before Terrans reach Homo Sapiens.
> I hadn't realized the time was so great.

So far as I know, the date of -390,600 appears only in MT Imp. Encyc. and
is contradicted by everything else published about the Vilani and the
Ancients.  I'd strongly argue dropping it.  Not that it makes a huge
amount of difference for the issue of non-Terran hominid sources, anyway.

> Maybe it is better to handwave it with the Ancients magic wand and say
> Gramps
> wanted interfertility.

I think we need to do that, or considerably rewrite the existing history
of the ROM, Long Night, and 3I.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:21:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Evyn MacDude wrote:

> 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
> >
> > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
> > allowed freedom.
> 
> Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
> slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.

I hope, fellow listero, that you're not implying -- even
ever-so-obliquely -- that I'm a bipolar fanged goth.  That would force me
to to post details about my girly-girl-powered particle accelerator
handgun...

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:28:10 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Space Dock users...

I encountered a problem with loading files in version 1.01. It is fixed, and
1.02 is up on the web site. Fortunately, the save files themselves are not
bad, and once you get 1.02, you will be able to load the 1.01 files without
problems. Sorry for the difficulty.

Andrew
_______________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:27:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

 
> >Given anthropology's current thought, just what sub-species of hominids
> >got transplanted?  Surely not homo sapiens sapiens! We didn't exist yet! ;->

Depend on what you decide to call late erectus/ergaster. In other
words it depends on who you talk to :-)
 
> You're working from an unconcious assumption that the Traveller universe
> is identical to the Real universe. This is not true. In the Traveller
> universe Homo sapiens HAD evolved by -300,000. Proof: Vilani was removed
> from Earth in -300,000 and are interfertile with Homo sapiens. QED. (And
> don't ask me to explain why G:T insists that the Zhodani are a separate
> species).
 
Some anthropologists might well put late erectus/archaic H.
sapiens/H. sapiens all together. Regardless, I bet we could breed
with erectus/ergaster, no problem--except that pesky separation of
time thing :-) (I won't bother getting into cross species/subspecies
attractiveness/unatractiveness :-)

> >Isn't it even likely that some of these sub-species will not be
> >inter-fertile with each other or modern Solomani?
> 
> Quite likely. 
  
Maybe. But remember that even at 300,000 years ago we are *far*
closer to an old critter in genus Homo than a chimp (break with them
was ~6mya) and we share ~98% of genes with a chimp. I bet the humans
are all interbreedable.

Species defined as "can breed and produce fertile offsping" is
great, but is not used at all in paleontology since we could not
know the answer. As a result, paleo species definitions are based
around (mostly bone) morphology, and even geography (ont to mention
time). Mkaes taking about it tricky in these terms.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #230
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 231



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)
Re: Tech Levels for T4
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Some questions...
Re: Request for linguistic help
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Simple (or not) science question on EMP
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
Trojan Reach Info
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports
Re: Star Merc's 
RE: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Ditzie and Riot Control
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: color of scout ships
Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka
Re: Color of scout ships
re: Neutrino Sensors
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:26:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

>It would take either Ancient meddling or a *very* hostile environment
>that provided *heavy* selection pressure. Remember, it's been around 3
>million years since the split with the chimps & gorillas. And yet it's
>suspected that we may still be close enough genetically to have "mule"
>type crosses (ie progeny possible, but sterile). 
>
>Nobody has yet *tried* a cross, even in vitro, because the ethical and
>moral implications are *really* messy.
>
So maybe that's where Cain got his wife?  Oooh oohooohooohhh!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:28:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)

>We sometimes post with "branches" based on "if I made
>the first roll, I do, this. If I fail, I do *that*..."
>
That's what I've started doing at

http://ddi.digital.net/~brclif/instructions.htm

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:31:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels for T4

Thanks!  I'll make a point to get it.

I thought MegaTraveller was a professional-looking product.  I REALLY liked
DGP's magazine for MegaTraveller.  It was the first magazine I saw that used
the no-smear glossy anti-UV protective coating.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Tech Levels for T4


> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Can someone tell me where I can find a good breakdown of the various
> technologies found in the different Tech Levels for T4?

Try MT's Referee's Companion, it has a whole chapter on that an a
nice two-page summary. Yeah, OK, it's for MT, but there is not much
of a difference.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:34:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

"Please look at the screen. This tooth implant is the first and 
easier one."
"In case an operative is captured, and interrogation is 
unavoidable, he will simply strongly bite, so that the implant, which 
is actually a microcomputer with a neural field transmitter, starts 
actind. 

Anger deterrence.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:06:13 +0100
From: "Leszek Karlik aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Some questions...

Each letter should have a beginning, so there. ;)

And now for the questions themselves: 

Why does the X-laser table in FFS2 contain only  the values for 
heavy grav focused versions? I'd like to make a non-grav-focused
x-laser at TL 15, but there's no data on the performance...

Sandcasters: how do they work? Aren't they small masdrivers firing
cans of 'sand'? And if so, isn't it possible to use them as weapons?
Also, why doesn't sand stop particle beams? Afer all, it is matter, so
it  will absorb the particle beam energy. Less efficiently then in
case of lasers, but still... Oh, and the kinetic energy released by
thousands of grains of sand hitting a missile is nothing to frown at,
so a sandcaster could be used for last-ditch anti-missile defense
(probably only against KKMs, and chemlaser warheads - if it doesn't 
hit the missile, at least it'll stop the beam). 

Can't you do an airframe Wedge? And what about the size modifiers? 
And what about a sphere? Streamlined sphere? Airframe sphere?
(OK, the last one is pretty bogus, but my Impregnable Beachball from 
Hell SDBs are spheres, or, more precisely, elipsoids, and I want them 
to be streamlined in order to skim gas giants for reaction mass and 
deuterium for the fusion reactors)

What is the 'toughness' of armor materials in FFS2 based on? 
What would be the toughness of crystaltungsten? Of diamond? 
(Not to mention pre-stressed diamond plates armed with fullerene 
nanotubes, used in composite with crystaltungsten... <evil grin>)

Can one get protium fusion reactors WITHOUT nuclear damper technology?
How about using artificial gravity? And what is the assumed 
effectiveness of energy conversion of fusion plants? IM(highly 
heretical)TU, the high-end fusion reactors use micro-black globes 
(created INSIDE the BG generator) to capture most of the energy 
available. 

How can one shield the ship from the radiation and magnetic fields of 
a GG? Will superconductor loops under the hull do? 

Well, that will be enough for now. As you probably see, MTU is rather 
far from the One True Traveller Universe TM (;)))), but the Trav 
influence is still pretty heavy, and I want it to be rather hard sf 
(that is, no grav focussing, and no superdense. I don't like 
superdense. ;>). 

OK. So there's psionics. Make it semi-hard. 

And magic. OK. So it's kinda hardish space opera. ;) I still want to 
get the physics part right. ;) Mostly right, anyway. ;>

Leslie

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - leslie@zwieracz.terrorgarden.waw.pl; 
   YASD(TM); FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ TANSTAAFL;
  GL/O d- s+: a20 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M- PS+(+++) 
  PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! r-- !y+*
    Phoneco.sys corrupted - recommend competitive market

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:39:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Request for linguistic help

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:

>Premis: That as the Terrans start trading with the Vilani, they find a ready
>market for Terran foodstuffs as luxury goods in the Ziru Sirka. As a result
>Terran producers find they can get far better prices in the ZS and
>domestic prices in the Terran Confederation start to skyrocket.

It is not, IMO, possible for a Traveller world to afford a trade fleet big
enough to allow it to export enough food to affect the domestic supply. So
unless the Vilani comes with their own ships to buy the stuff, this won't
be a problem.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:41:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Separate quibble of long standing:  Given the long separation of the
> > Ancient-transplanted humans from the Terran ones, why the heck are we
> > still stuck with the terminology of "races"?  Even if we assume they're
> > all derived from Homo sapiens, it's harder to justify claiming they're all
> > Homo sapiens sapiens.  
> 
> As long as they are still inter-fertile, races *is* the correct term.
> Sub-species is possible, but carries too many conotations that could
> make it even worse than "race".

I think that this may be a matter of personal preference to some degree --
to my mind "race" has far more inappropriate connotations than
"subspecies" for Traveller.  

> > And then, of course -- if you believe they were actually created by the
> > Ancients -- there's the Sayat :)  Though, y'know, they believe that
> > they're the original human species and that all the others were
> > contaminated by fiendish bat-winged ALIEN SEX FIENDS.
> 
> Fun guys from Yuggoth, no doubt?

Verily.  It is no coincidence that Yuggoth and Yaskodray start with the
same letter.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:49:08 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Simple (or not) science question on EMP

A question has arisen on another list I am on, and I bring it here for you
to enlighten me.

Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) effects, as created by nuclear explosions and
certain high-tech weapons, disrupt and damage electrical systems. Will this
disruption, and or damage affect systems that are both on and off, or only
those that are on?

It is my understanding that an EMP effect works as a sort of giant
static-electric "zap" to sensitive microcircuits. Is this this the case, or
am I misled?

The help of the more cerebally-endowed on the list would be greatly
appreciated.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:29:55
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

At 09:31 AM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:

>I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I 
>miss something completely, here?

At higher TL's higher jump numbers become avalible.

TL-13  Jump-4
TL-14  Jump-5
TL-15  Jump-6
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:51:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Merrick Burkhardt writes:

>>You're working from an unconcious assumption that the Traveller universe
>>is identical to the Real universe. This is not true. In the Traveller
>>universe Homo sapiens HAD evolved by -300,000. Proof: Vilani was removed
>>from Earth in -300,000 and are interfertile with Homo sapiens. QED. (And
>>don't ask me to explain why G:T insists that the Zhodani are a separate
>>species).
>  
>Some anthropologists might well put late erectus/archaic H.
>sapiens/H. sapiens all together. Regardless, I bet we could breed
>with erectus/ergaster, no problem--

Well, even better. That means that erectus/ergaster aren't different species
by the "can breed and produce fertile offspring" definition.

>except that pesky separation of time thing :-)

In the Traveller universe there may be ways to get around that (Ancient
stasis fields).

>Species defined as "can breed and produce fertile offsping" is
>great, but is not used at all in paleontology since we could not
>know the answer. As a result, paleo species definitions are based
>around (mostly bone) morphology, and even geography (ont to mention
>time). Mkaes taking about it tricky in these terms.
 
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that if two branches separated for
300,000 are still interfertile, then each branch would also have to
be interfertile with the root species (assume for purposes of argument
that Grandpop did put a few 'Homo antiquitus'[1] in stasis).

[1] The name IMTU for the root ancestors taken by the Ancients ca. -300,000.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:01:08 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Trojan Reach Info

Non-Flame post :)

Does anyone know where I can find more detailed info on the Trojan reach 
sector beyond the info contained in Adv. 3. I found the UWP list for the 
sector on the Web....

TIA

Mike


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:01:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> On 03/01/99 at 12:09 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>
>>I'm not sure Eris was going this far but I will: IMO, its
>>unreasonable to expect or even hope that Terrans and Vilani are
>>interfertile.  
>
> I was just suggesting the possibility that the various minor human
> "races" are probably about as close to each other as Terran humans
> are to bonos or chimps.  Well, OK, a little closer.  ;->

Sorry, but the chimp/human/gorilla split was 3-4 *million* years ago.
Yet even at that distance there is serious speculation about possible
limited crossbreeding being possible.

The Ancients were only 300-400 thousand years ago. That's 1/10th the
time. A lot more recent. And the odds are *much* stronger that we'd
still be interfertile.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:10:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports

In mail you write:

> I've been looking for this: my version of spaceports on and around Terra =
> in
> 2025. I designed it for a GURPS Cyberpunk/Near Orbit campaign, but it is
> compatible with GT. Latitude equals minimum initial orbital inclination;
> spaceport class (CL) is a relative measure of facilities and quality.
>
> Equatorial
>
> Spaceport               Ident   Loc             Owner   CL      Type    Lat     UTC     PR      CR
> Kourou                  SOOK    Fr. Guiana      ESA     A       R       5.0     -3      4       3
> Singapore/Changi        WSSS    Singapore               B       P       2.0     +8      6       5
> Delta Transfer          AQDD    HEO             FTL     C       S       0.0     0       2       1
> Quito                   SEQU    Ecuador         C       M, P    0.5     -5      6       5
> Mogadishu Int'l         HCMM    Somalia AL      C       P       2.0     +3      6       1
> Nairobi                 HKNA    Kenya           ESA     C       M       2.0     +3      6       4

Mogadishu isn't very likely, as not only is it near sea level, but the
area is very *non*-industrial. 

Quito has an advantage of altitude, but doesn't have much of a
transport net to get things there.

Singapore is kinda small and low. NewGuinea is closer to the Equator,
and the land is cheap. The Aussies have had an eye on it since the 50s.
They might go in with some of the other nations in the area to develop
a port there.

Nairobi isn't likely to be the port. Instead, they are more likely to
have an electromagnetic launcher track running up the side of Mt.
Kilamanjaro. 

And what's wrong with Hawaii?


> Ecliptic
>
> Spaceport               Ident   Loc             Owner   CL      Type    Lat     UTC     PR      CR
> Kennedy Ctr, FL         KX68    US              NASA    A       P, R    28.5    -5      4       5
> Rio de Janeiro          SBGL    Brazil                  B       P       22.9    -3      7       2
> Chek Lap Kok            VHCL    Hong Kong       PRC     B       P       23.0    +8      6       2
> Bombay                  VABB    India           India   C       P       19.0    +5      7       4
> Alpha Transfer          EQAA    HEO             ESA     C       S       23.5    0       2       3
> Bravo Transfer          EQBB    HEO             ESA     C       S       23.5    0       2       3
> Charlie Transfer        EQCC    HEO             ESA     C       S       23.5    0       2       3

> High Inclination/Polar
>
> Spaceport               Ident   Loc             Owner   CL      Type    Lat     UTC     PR      CR
> Kagoshima               RJFK    Japan           JAB     A       R       32.0    +9      4       5
> Shuang Cheng Tzu        ZSCT    PRC                     A       R       33.0    +8      6       5
> Mojave Int'l, CA        KRIV    US              USA     A       P       35.1    -8      7       4
> Tyuratam                UATY    Kazakhstan      SRC     A       H, R    45.6    +6      4       5
> Frankfurt/Rhein-Main    EDAF    EC              ESA     A       P       50.0    +1      6       4
> Sydney Int'l            YSSY    Australia               B       P       33.9    +10     6       3
> New Tokyo Int'l         RJAA    Japan           JAB     B       P       35.8    +9      7       4
> Peterson AFB, CO        KCOS    US              USAF    B       H, P    38.8    -7      5       5
> Beijing/Capital         ZBAA    PRC             PRC     B       P       39.9    +8      6       5
> JFK Int'l, NY           KJFK    US              USA     B       P       40.8    -5      7       4
> Moscow/Sheremetyevo     UUEE    Russia          SRC     B       P       50.8    +3      7       3
> Capetown/Gateway        FAGB    S. Africa               C       P       34.0    +2      6       3
> Echo Transfer           CXEE    HEO             ESA     C       S       60.0    0       1       2
> Int'l Space Station     CXFM    LEO             ISU     D       S       51.4    0       1       3

There should be a listing for Vandenberg. Also Mojave isn't as good a
site as the area north of White Sands. It's bigger, fewer ecological
concerns, and has major rail and pipeline routes nearby. The pipelines
provide oil and gas as fuel stocks. And less conflict with air traffic.

> Key: AL=Arab League, CR=Control Rating, FTL=Free Trade League, H=High
> Energy Laser Lift (HELL), HEO=High Earth Orbit, ISU=International Space
> University, LEO=Low Earth Orbit, M=Massdriver, P=Plane (HTOL), PR=local
> Population Rating, R=Rocket (VTOL), S=Space (0g), SRC=Soviet Rocket Corps.
>
> Mojave International is the former March Air Force Base, midway between Los
> Angeles and Barstow, CA. The identifiers are either authentic or consistent
> with current ICAO usage, and are used when filing flightplans.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:32:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Star Merc's 

William Barnett-Lewis writes:
> Just got my copy finally - am I the only old tanker who thinks that
> being Cav in this world would be really un-healthy? Was armor and Scouts
> in the US Army for 16 years and this just feels, well, strange...
> 
> Any commentary welcome...

Hm...perhaps you would care to share your _reasons_ for this opinion?  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:43:31 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Request for Linguistic assistance

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:
"Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please 
tell me how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export 
Control Authority". Its for my ongoing work on the IW period"

	My french is far from perfect, but I would translate it
	to: "Regie des Exports Agricole du Federation" (the two 
	'e's in 'Federation' have forward-slanted / accents above
	them).

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:47:17 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie and Riot Control

The shotgun is EXACTLY what I was thinking about!!!  I've got that one saved
somewhere I think, just in case it's needed in the future >:)

Jesse

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!"   -Ensign Lynch just before assimilation by the Borg,
"Star Trek, First Contact"





>
>Guys,
>
>I thought I'd already submitted Ditzie's riot control solution ... get the
>FS Home Product's Division Home Sound System (the one with the Heplar
>counteracted by contragravity), turn the volume up to eleven and wait for
>them to bop themselves silly. Of for their eardrums to burst.
>
>Hengabar also released a riot-control autoshotgun some time ago.
>
>Ian
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:50:38 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I
miss something completely, here?


I wasn't really clear on this part, I asked for TL 14-15 designs.  I forgot
that T4 uses M:0 as it's default background.  I'm intent on using a
divergent timeline somewhere in the vicinity of year 1000.  (I don't know if
I'll let the Rebellion occur...I know I will _not_ let that other
unspeakable event occur.) <weg> So I'll probably be using some GURPS
sourcebooks in my campaign.

Thad
- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:02:04 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

>> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>> > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
>> >
>> > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
>> > allowed freedom.
>>
>> Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
>> slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.
>
>I hope, fellow listero, that you're not implying -- even
>ever-so-obliquely -- that I'm a bipolar fanged goth.  That would force me
>to to post details about my girly-girl-powered particle accelerator
>handgun...


Oh ghods....*GIRL POWER* has hit the TML.  What's next?  Ditzie-spice?  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:53:29 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: color of scout ships

That's when you go in with a Scout sneak ship.  Check out the 1st sidebar in
the "First In" playtest info for more :)

Jesse


>Perhaps first contact ships are painted bright white with warnings,
>greetings, dirty pictures etc.
>
>But what if you want to scout the locals out stealthily?
>TV
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>------------
>"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
>David Crockett
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:47:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> A question has arisen on another list I am on, and I bring it here for you
> to enlighten me.
> 
> Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) effects, as created by nuclear explosions and
> certain high-tech weapons, disrupt and damage electrical systems. Will this
> disruption, and or damage affect systems that are both on and off, or only
> those that are on?

As I understand it, EMP basically creates a voltage spike, which in turn
creates a surge of current in conductive materials.  The intensity of this
current is dependent on the length and resistance of the conductor -- so you
get a much larger surge in a power grid than you do in, say, a paperclip.  As
such, electronics which aren't connected to the power grid, the phone system,
the cable television system, etc, probably won't get anywhere near as nasty a
zap, though there will be some effect from the power cord, simple internal
wires, metal in the case, etc...  Supposedly, if you were hanging on to some
long piece of lightly grounded wire (say, a barbed wire fence) the jolt could
be large enough to hurt a person.

Thus, a system which is off _can_ be damaged by EMP, though it's somewhat less
likely to be.  It can't really be disrupted, since disruption implies that the
system is in use (being 'off' is a severe disruption in the normal use of a
system too...).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:01:23 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 03/01/99 at 12:17 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>
> >Any more?  Did you set this in a particular place?  I'm guessing
> >Northern Europe between 200 and 800 AD?
>
> I placed it somewhat earlier, and a little further southeast. ;->

Well, in this area, I'm a heretic.  Actually, worse than that.
And if you go with the heretical accounts, this entity was no artisan.
But we don't need any real life religion here.

I was also leaning towards a date later due to the Vilani's halt to
exploration at AD 518, -4000 Imperial

BTW: On Fox news today, they were given the Aliens-Built-The-Pyramids
people more time than the Non-ET Egyptologists and presenting the
story without tongue in cheek.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:58:26 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

That's how I handle it IMTU.  It's also really nice when your PC's are
coming to the assistance of a "disabled" ship, and the "paint" scheme
suddenly changes from the independant trader it was pretending to be to that
of a black ship with a Flaming Eye (or black with Skull n Crossbones in the
Solomani Rim)    >:D

Jesse


>>Yet another flame-fest waiting for resurrection! :-)
>>
>>I seem to recall someone (Bruce, probably, as resident sensor expert)
>>pointing out that black paint made no difference at typical starship
>>combat ranges, and therefore military ships could be any colour they liked
>>without degrading performance.
>
>In Bruce's sensor rules the default hullsurface is 99% black (ie it absorbs
>all but 1% of incident EM radiation) so at least there they should be
>black. At least military ships such as Navy, SDB, Scouts should probably be
>matte black but those refs who like nicely coloured ships might say that
>all ships have broadband chamelon surface that will become black when in
>combat but otherwisely they can sport all sorts of markings.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:03:33 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Neutrino Sensors

>That's two good reasons for putting them on the outside I hadn't thought
>of.

Another is just keeping them away from the powerplant - putting them on 
booms to get them as far away from that primary noise source as possible.


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:10:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 03/01/99 at 12:09 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>
> >I'm not sure Eris was going this far but I will: IMO, its
> >unreasonable to expect or even hope that Terrans and Vilani are
> >interfertile.
>
> I was just suggesting the possibility that the various minor human
> "races" are probably about as close to each other as Terran humans
> are to bonos or chimps.  Well, OK, a little closer.  ;->

LOL.  I think I'm going to use the wiggle room in the timeline to
flesh out two Homo Something species I've wanted to do.
(Please let me know if there are similar minor races out there
that I'm not aware of).  In a nutshell, one is a sentient gibbon-type
primate, though larger and with prehensile tail, and the other is
a Neanderthal-Missing link type with a penchant for violence
and great fear of large predator cats (a sort of genetic memory from
being hunted on the plains of Africa.).

> Personally, this isn't my field of expertise, just some questions I
> thought might cause some thought.
>
> Oh, and I was also trying to keep some sort of discussion going that
> had nothing to do with certain other threads flooding the TML.

And you have.

> BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> post?

I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.
I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.

It seems reasonable if you really want to have player influence.
I'll look at it again.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #231
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Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 232



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
Daibei and Reavers Deep up.
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Bradley vs M113
Ewwww.....
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #231
Re: Color of scout ships
RE: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP
Re: Evolution
Re: Some questions...
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Evolution 
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:07:09 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

>It depends. If you have the energy spare, lots of factor 1 weapons
>and your opponent's ships have armour, then your point defense
>gunners might as well do something.
>In practice, most optimised point defence weapons are designed to
>shoot missiles at short range, so they are powered by trickle charge
>batteries (to reduce demands on power plants) with short range focussing
>and beam pointers (to reduce cost and size) so instead of missing with
>100 shots per turn at long range, they wait and fire 8000 shots/turn for
>a fraction of a turn and kill it just in time.
>(T4 stats. Assumes a ten "barrel" mount, optically focussed, 60Mj X-ray
>point defence laser in a standard turret. 1.873MCr, 3std, 63.25tons,
>39.23MW, area 0.71m2, rof 100/800, includes workstation and MFD.
>USP (+6) 1/6-4-3-2[10,100/19-10-5-2](SR)
>CUSP (+1,+6) 12:12 PDR+7)


First of all, thanks for the great info.  Secondly, I should have
distinguished between PD weapons and "Standard" Las turrets.  Is it perhaps
a good idea to build a number of small Laser armed ships to serve as Missile
defense in combat? ( Allowing for Fleet defense, as opposed to self defense
in the case of PD weapons.)  And are PD weapons that much better at swatting
down missiles than say a long range Laser mount with ROF 400?  (Why use a
Hardpoint for a strictly short range weapon when you could have a weapon
that has long range and is at least moderately effective close in?)  Keep in
mind I don't have any of the BL material to reference :)

>> 2.  When turrets are grouped into batteries, why is the damage rating
>> lower than would be expected if the damage values were simply
>> cumulative?  (Is the use of MFD's for individual turrets a way to
>> retain higher overall damage values?)
>
>Its a log scale (approximately)


Right.  I was just wondering why it's imposed.  When you figure the
individual stats for the weapon, range degradation has already been
calculated.  So if we have a 4-4-4-3 Laser Turret, why do we get something
like 12-4-4-3 when they are grouped in a battery.  (I think those #'s are
close.  I used Andrew Akin's SS to create a 42m^3 Laser Turret.  I can get
the specifics if necessary)

Is it just more range attenuation?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:07:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution

StevenA201@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I just ran across two bits of counter-evidence.
> 
> I read that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity of any human
> population.
>

Actually, these studies are limited to mitochondrial DNA, which
exclusivly traces the _maternal_ lineage. There are something like 50 or
80 different human mitochondrial genotypes (IIRC) that they have
isolated in the world, all but a few of them exist only in Africa. All
that this indicates is that Africa is the likely place where humans
arose, and that thay migrated to everywhere else. Mitochondria mutate at
a different rate than the rest of our genome, and as they're not subject
to recombination are used as 'clocks' to date divergences in evolution.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:08:14 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Daibei and Reavers Deep up.

Well after days and weeks and years of procrastination I've finally
finished basic HTMLising for Daibei.

For those of you who are interested there's a UWP file of the sector and
a Galatic version of the sector avaiable for you to download.

There's also a Galactic version of Reavers Deep available for download
on the Reavers Deep page.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Please take a look around the site and tell me what you think.

Comments Critisims and Flames welcome.  Well maybe not Flames but...

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:56:30 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Black ICE wrote:

>> Define effective. That 120mm Rheinmetall gun can't penetrate the armour
>> on a T-90, even with an APFSDS-DU round.
>> 
>Assuming that this is the case, then the Rheinmetall gun is still
>effective against the vast majority of FSU tanks.  The FSU 125mm gun
>(with or without a gun-launched ATGM) can't make the same claim
>concerning the M1 series, the Challenger series, or (IIRC) other NATO
>tanks of similar vintage.

With cheap export sabot rounds, true. What about the FSU DU penetrators?

>ObTrav:  Can't think of one off-hand, since I already asked about the
>"Threat Inflation Quotient" among the various intersteller polities. 
>*shrug*

ObTrav: Intelligence suggests that the Zho are developing a tank with
some kind of field generator that makes the armament on a Norris
ineffective...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:04:26 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Gary wrote:

>> ATGM missile can get to me...I don't know how this would work with newer
>> faster missiles, and with helos doing pop up fire and forget shots....
>
>That's what Air is for.  : )  
>
>The M2 is the primary anti aircraft and vehicle weapon.  It's not *supposed*
>to be used against personnel...  The loaders M240 also does air watch, but
>isn't very useful in that role.  Lastly (or primarily, take your pick),
>there's teh MPAT round.  It was designed for use against the common FSU helo's
>(especially Hind's), though smaller ones like the Havok and Hokum are almost
>guaranteed to be safe IIRC.

Sorry, I can't parse that. Are you saying that a Ka-50 / Mi-28 are safe
from an MPAT round?

>> Yep. Trouble is, the long-rod structure of the sabot round is vulnerable
>> to side-impact forces - which is exactly what Kontact-5 does to it. The
>> armour literally shatters the sabot before it penetrates the hull of the
>> vehicle.
>
>Like I said, dubious.  I've heard the publicity around it.  Possible, but
>given the relative velocities, I'm still dubious.

Well, the pictures look good. Let's hope no-one has to find out the hard
way. Otherwise, it'll be back to hunting Tigers in Shermans - but
without the numerical superiority.

>> Hmm at 38-odd ton tank against a 50-something ton tank. You'll need an
>> awfully good transmission & suspension to make good on the weight issue.
>> Agreed, reliability of the mechanics is an issue with FSU gear.
>
>Turbine vs diesel engine.  World of difference.  The T-84 (AKA T-80DU, not
>depleted uranium) has gone to a turbine system, but the T-80 and IIRC the T-90
>are still just diesel.

A Turbine? Not much more power (in fact, the British Army was offered a
diesel with the same power output as the turbine in the M1. More
maintenance, more fragile, more noise.

>And an M1A1 is 68 tons, combat loaded.  

Better not add much more weight - there aren't that many bridges with a
rating better than MLC-70.

>> And the holders of the longest-range tank kill is?
>> 
>> British Army, Challenger I, HESH.
>
>And they've got the long, unwieldy gun to show it, too.  I'll still w/ the
>Rheinmettal. :-)

To be honest, so would I. I guess some pongo got a lucky shot off.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:50:35 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< The chances of killing a helo without a sensor-fused round (not to
> mention a fire-control system designed around a 200 knot target rather
> than a 30mph one) are slight. Isn't that what the M-2 on top was for? >>
>
>Sorry; I should have elaborated further. He meant killing STATIONARY HOVERING
>helos. Their reasoning was "I see a copter, and he's firing a missile at me. I
>can return fire, and kill him with my main gun bullet, a LOT quicker than his
>ATGM missile can get to me...I don't know how this would work with newer
>faster missiles, and with helos doing pop up fire and forget shots....

In this case, the round will never be used. The gunner will fire what is
already in the breach at the helo, and either he hits or the command
guided missile is going to kill you before you get a second shot.

With MMW guided missiles, the helo fires and forgets - possibly from
behind a ridge. 8km away (what's the max effective range of a tank
cannon? about 5km.)

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:12:36 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Ewwww.....

Well, of course you got bad service!  What did you expect?  You go out on a
date with a blue-skinned lady, and all the waiters think you're some sort
of necrophile!   ;-)

Ob Trav:  Lots of human races out there in the Imperium; any odd
pigmentations?  Does the Vilani diet give a greenish or bluish tint to the
skin?  Eye and hair colors we don't have on Earth?  (IMTU there is a common
Vilani mutation/adaptation that causes bright green hair and a greensih
skin tint; more common on Vland, but found in about 10% of all
Vilani-strain humans).

Steve Charlton
Very much enjoying the allergy medication


Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
> None of this really affects me personally.  I've had poor service when on
> dates with someone with different pigmentation, but then I've had porr
> service by myself as well.  Fortunately most of my kids don't seem to
> consider skin pigmentation that important either. (Religious differences
> are, though.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:18:41 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 02/28/99 at 11:15 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net> said:
>
> >Seems like I read somewhere that modern "skin" colors are
> >environmental evolutions that have come into being in the last
> >100,000 years or less. Before that we were all the same.
> >SOOO.....
>
> Hum, I doubt there is much evidence either way.  Has anything other
> than bone and stone tools been discovered from that long ago?  I
> don't think so, but evolutionary change certainly has continued and
> as humankind scattered across the globe I can see selection based on
> envirnomental factors taking place.

Well, I can't speak about other factors much, but melanin-production,
and thus skin color, is fairly sensitive to environment over time.
Although, differences in melanin levels certainly don't mean different
races.

As humans moved north, from Africa, the amount of sunlight available
to assist in the production of certain vitamins is greatly reduced due to

persistent weather conditions and temperature (colder weather
requiring clothing and thus limiting exposure).

I'm beginning to think I'm missing something here.  Hopefully
someone with knowledge will jump in here soon.  Or I'm going to
have to visit the library.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:16:23 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

While trying to catch up on the mulititude of
TML posts I've missed, all the talk of snipers
and jump troops brought to mind an incident
on a Southwest Airlines flight which was
told to me by one of the flight attendants on
the flight (I did flight deck pentop support
for SWA).

One of the passengers with a flat top haircut
and tattoos on his arms got a little drunk on
one of the company's longer flights and
occasionally harassed the attendants. He
was about 19-20 and the attendants pretty
much ignored him. After the flight landed,
the passenger got up and ended up tripping and
falling to the floor.

He just lay there stretched out, refusing
to get up and muttering. One of the other
passengers asked the attendant if he could help
in any way and, upon receiving an explanation, 
made his way forward to the guy on the floor.

Looking down at the prone guy, the passenger,
put his fists on his hips and shouted:

"ON YOUR FEET, SOLDIER!".

The attendant said the other guy almost hit
his head on an overhead luggage bin snapping
to. The second passenger, who apparently was,
or used to be, a DI then marched the drunk
off the plane into the hands of airport
security.

Now I don't *think* she was snowing me since
she said she didn't understand why the drunk
"looked scared when the other passenger yelled"
nor why the guy jumped up like he did. Didn't
know what a DI was, either.

Regardless, it would make a pretty good situation
for players to run up against while on a boring
orbit-to-surface shuttle flight.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:22:22 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #231

>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:47:17 -0800
>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie and Riot Control
>
>The shotgun is EXACTLY what I was thinking about!!!  I've got that one
saved
>somewhere I think, just in case it's needed in the future >:)

That would be the OKA-SQ(TM) model.  If you're missing it I'll ask him to
repost.  (Last time I looked he;d cooked some 40-50 or so designs to annoy
me with.;)

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:21:57 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

>I seem to recall someone (Bruce, probably, as resident sensor expert)
>pointing out that black paint made no difference at typical starship
>combat ranges, and therefore military ships could be any colour they liked
>without degrading performance.

and Anders wrote
>In Bruce's sensor rules the default hullsurface is 99% black (ie it absorbs
>all but 1% of incident EM radiation) so at least there they should be
>black. At least military ships such as Navy, SDB, Scouts should probably be
>matte black but those refs who like nicely coloured ships might say that
>all ships have broadband chamelon surface that will become black when in
>combat but otherwisely they can sport all sorts of markings.

Right - the technology assumption I made is that most ships have chameleon
coatings. Ships that want to be really stealthy buy "military black" and
"military ultrablack" coatings, which I tend to picutre as being permanently
black (but could be persuaded are just very good chamelon coatings.)

However...being non-black just adds +0.5 to your visible-light signature.
Most ships have IR signatures that are much higher than their visible-light...
so in practice permanently painting your ship bright blue won't make a
difference, because you'll be seen in IR first. It's only ships with good
IR masking that are operating with their power plants partially shut down
that have to start to worry about visible light.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:31:27 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Along those lines, I was taught in the Navy that the FIRST thing to do
to break up an enlisted scuffle was yell "attention on deck!"

(it works most of the time).

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Don't argue about the difficulties. The difficulties will argue for
themselves. (Winston Churchill)




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Smart, David J (David) [SMTP:dasmart@lucent.com]
> Sent:	01 March 1999 12:16
> To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject:	Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
> 
> While trying to catch up on the mulititude of
> TML posts I've missed, all the talk of snipers
> and jump troops brought to mind an incident
> on a Southwest Airlines flight which was
> told to me by one of the flight attendants on
> the flight (I did flight deck pentop support
> for SWA).
> 
> One of the passengers with a flat top haircut
> and tattoos on his arms got a little drunk on
> one of the company's longer flights and
> occasionally harassed the attendants. He
> was about 19-20 and the attendants pretty
> much ignored him. After the flight landed,
> the passenger got up and ended up tripping and
> falling to the floor.
> 
> He just lay there stretched out, refusing
> to get up and muttering. One of the other
> passengers asked the attendant if he could help
> in any way and, upon receiving an explanation, 
> made his way forward to the guy on the floor.
> 
> Looking down at the prone guy, the passenger,
> put his fists on his hips and shouted:
> 
> "ON YOUR FEET, SOLDIER!".
> 
> The attendant said the other guy almost hit
> his head on an overhead luggage bin snapping
> to. The second passenger, who apparently was,
> or used to be, a DI then marched the drunk
> off the plane into the hands of airport
> security.
> 
> Now I don't *think* she was snowing me since
> she said she didn't understand why the drunk
> "looked scared when the other passenger yelled"
> nor why the guy jumped up like he did. Didn't
> know what a DI was, either.
> 
> Regardless, it would make a pretty good situation
> for players to run up against while on a boring
> orbit-to-surface shuttle flight.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:30:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> A question has arisen on another list I am on, and I bring it here for you
> to enlighten me.
> 
> Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) effects, as created by nuclear explosions and
> certain high-tech weapons, disrupt and damage electrical systems. Will this
> disruption, and or damage affect systems that are both on and off, or only
> those that are on?
> 
> It is my understanding that an EMP effect works as a sort of giant
> static-electric "zap" to sensitive microcircuits. Is this this the case, or
> am I misled?

EMP's will generate damaging currents in any length of conductor,
whether it's turned off or on. The _effect_ is similar to a 'static zap'
but is due to inductive current generation in the conductors of the
affected systems.

Basically you get a honking huge magnetic pulse. And a moving magnetic
pulse + conductor = current flow in the conductor. How much current is
dependent on the length of the conductor and the strength of the
magnetic pulse. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much current to fry
microelectronic circuits.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:38:31 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

> I just ran across two bits of counter-evidence.
>
> I read that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity of any human
> population.

Currently, yes.  Hundreds and hundreds of distinct cultures/tribes that
restrict their gene pools.  There has always been some diverstiy due
to random mutation.  However, "Eve" comes in.  The name given
to the female African who is theorized to be the 'mother' of all humans,
i.e., only her children and their offspring survived to evolve.  The children
of here siblings did not.

The hypothesize reason for one group of cousins to survive and the other
to fail, at least over time, is a capacity for speech.


> Also, I saw a bit on TV about an African-American couple who have had three
> (!) "white" children.  Just how they define "white" was unspecified, this
> being TV, but I think it's quite possible that Vilani, like Euros, could grow
> paler over the millennia.

That happens all the time.  Its surprising common, at least in the US.
Its just the effects of the mixing of 'black' and 'white' people.  I know lots
of people that are the product of 'mixed' marriages (excuse that term, please.
I hate it myself but don't have a god substitute).  Their siblings sometims
show the full range of color.

There is no reason for humans to become paler with the passage of time.
Differences in environment and expanding the gene pool will change
skin color overs generations.


> Wasn't it Louis Farrakhan who taught that caucasians were the result of alien
> genetic experiments?
>   --S
>
> >Here's a suggestion: assume the transplanted Terrans were dark skinned,
> >i.e, high melanin.  Thats certainly reasonable I think.  Then assume that
> >the solar radiation isn't as great on Vland as on Terra (based on V&V
> >that might be fair based on the given Energy Absorption of Vland at
> >74% that of Terra.  The implication is that Vilani need to absorb more
>
> >energy,
>
> >thus less melanin, and lighter skin colors.  So, darker skin would be
>
> >unknown
>
> >among later Vilani.  Of course, handwaving interfertility, mixing with
>
> >Terrans
>
> >means you can have any combination you want.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:37:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Leszek Karlik aka Mike wrote:
> 
> Each letter should have a beginning, so there. ;)
> 
> And now for the questions themselves:
> 
> Why does the X-laser table in FFS2 contain only  the values for
> heavy grav focused versions? I'd like to make a non-grav-focused
> x-laser at TL 15, but there's no data on the performance...

Because the performance increase in lasers at TL-15 is _due_ to Grav
focusing, so the efficiency of non-grav focused ones would be the same
as earlier tech levels.
 
> Sandcasters: how do they work? Aren't they small masdrivers firing
> cans of 'sand'? And if so, isn't it possible to use them as weapons?
> Also, why doesn't sand stop particle beams? Afer all, it is matter, so
> it  will absorb the particle beam energy. Less efficiently then in
> case of lasers, but still... Oh, and the kinetic energy released by
> thousands of grains of sand hitting a missile is nothing to frown at,
> so a sandcaster could be used for last-ditch anti-missile defense
> (probably only against KKMs, and chemlaser warheads - if it doesn't
> hit the missile, at least it'll stop the beam).

Yes. Yes they are the Shotguns from Hell agaiunst personnell on the
ground but are _very_ short range weapons. Dunno why they dont affect
particle beams. And yes they could be usable as missile defence,
_except_ under FFS and IIRC FFS2 missiles are standoff det-laser
weapons.

> Can't you do an airframe Wedge? And what about the size modifiers?

Should be able to, after all, that's pretty much what a F117 is...

> And what about a sphere? Streamlined sphere? Airframe sphere?
> (OK, the last one is pretty bogus, but my Impregnable Beachball from
> Hell SDBs are spheres, or, more precisely, elipsoids, and I want them
> to be streamlined in order to skim gas giants for reaction mass and
> deuterium for the fusion reactors)
> 
> What is the 'toughness' of armor materials in FFS2 based on?
> What would be the toughness of crystaltungsten? Of diamond?
> (Not to mention pre-stressed diamond plates armed with fullerene
> nanotubes, used in composite with crystaltungsten... <evil grin>)

Good question, but no one's ever figured tyhis out. Someone, a long time
ago, put out a huge list of material tougnesses, I'll have to look it
up.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:42:46 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> > post?
> I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.

Well, I am considering it, but of course I would ask first....

> I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.

<fake anger>
Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something, 
Major B. Louis? 
</fake anger>
 
> It seems reasonable if you really want to have player influence.

Or no doubts on the player side about the fact that a fumble occurs 
with 1/36 probability. And, by Murphy's Law, at the most 
inappropriate moments.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:49:15 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> It would take either Ancient meddling or a *very* hostile environment
> that provided *heavy* selection pressure. Remember, it's been around 3
> million years since the split with the chimps & gorillas. And yet it's
> suspected that we may still be close enough genetically to have "mule"
> type crosses (ie progeny possible, but sterile).

If this is true, then I can except that *most* Vilani, Terrans and Zhodani,
would be interfertile.

> Nobody has yet *tried* a cross, even in vitro, because the ethical and
> moral implications are *really* messy.

There was a British television series about this  topic called "Gor", IIRC.
Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm and then
inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit exceedingly
hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and strong
man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it becomes a soap
opera.  I won't ruin it for you.

> > And then, of course -- if you believe they were actually created by the
> > Ancients -- there's the Sayat :)  Though, y'know, they believe that
> > they're the original human species and that all the others were
> > contaminated by fiendish bat-winged ALIEN SEX FIENDS.

This reminds me of a peeve of mine:  What the heck are the Sayat?
And the Suerrat too?  Occasionally these guys show up in some post
on the list.  Is there any info about these 'alleged' races on the web.
I saw 'alleged' because I'm not altogether sure that they exist
at all.  For all I know, they're code words for the Templars.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:54:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> 
> Oh ghods....*GIRL POWER* has hit the TML.  What's next?  Ditzie-spice?  :)

"We're Cheetos MAN! GAME OVER!!"

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #232
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 233



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Milieu E21 starports
Re: Color of scout ships
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka
re: Drop Tank Question
Re: Evolution
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
RE: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Milieu E21 starports
Re: Lifting off
Re: Daibei and Reavers Deep up.
OT: Hackers...
RE: Trojan Reach Info
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions 
Re: Evolution
Re: (debate) Solomani Sam resp Mother Duck bs Solomani Sam
RE: Evolution of skin colour
Re: Trojan Reach Info
Re: Evolution
Re: Some questions...
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Ewwww.....
Re: Evolution 
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka
Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:03:54 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 starports

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> So what do you all think?  Is it better to delete the port list and
> insert a paragraph about the kinds and number of spaceports on
> Earth?  Does it even make sense to try to enumerate all starports
> on Earth in the 21st century?  Perhaps it's better to just let the
> referee decide what to do about that.

Well, whats the intended use of the info?

For me, its seems like good stuff to have on a map, at least.
But then, I think there are too many in your list.  Have you seen
Chris Thrash's latest post.  I think thats better since it is rooted in
the real world (I don't think he mentioned that he's an Army pilot)
and there are a workable number of them.  Too many ports and
they become meaningless.  Whats needed is a "just right" number
that provides global coverage, makes sense, and each has
enough potential for uniqueness that a referee might be tempted to
flesh them out individually.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:51:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Color of scout ships

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> However...being non-black just adds +0.5 to your visible-light signature.
> Most ships have IR signatures that are much higher than their
> visible-light... so in practice permanently painting your ship bright blue
> won't make a difference, because you'll be seen in IR first. It's only ships
> with good IR masking that are operating with their power plants partially
> shut down that have to start to worry about visible light.

Well, given the same mirror size, the resolution of the IR sensor is
significantly worse than the resolution of the visual light sensor (though
given the temperature required for the radiators on a starship, not a whole lot
lower resolution, maybe half a range factor; room temperature IR would be more
like 1 or 1.5 range factors).  Of course, unless the attacker is using advanced
lasers and fairly unimpressive sensors, this doesn't matter a whole lot.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:59:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

steve daniels wrote:

> BTW: On Fox news today, they were given the Aliens-Built-The-Pyramids
> people more time than the Non-ET Egyptologists and presenting the
> story without tongue in cheek.

Well, we built them, but only under the direction of the Goa'uld. And
then only so they could find the Stargate again...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:03:03 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tank Question

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I'd like to hear comments from everyone - I didn't think it would
> be much of an issue...
> 
> 
> DonM.

	As long as they are used per the HG/TCS rules, what is there to
abuse?  The only thing I would specify is that they are unarmored (ie:  if
the damage roll on a ship carrying DT's says fuel-1, then armor DM is not
applied untill all the fuel capacity in the DT's is destroyed).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I take it a bit further. Any hit on a ship carrying drop tanks has to be
evaluated as if the ship had it's normal armor, *and* as if it had no armor.
The "with armor" hit is taken normally...if the "no armor" hit causes any
fuel loss, the drop tanks are immediately shattered.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:11:00 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Rob Prior wrote:

> traveller@mpgn.com writes:
> >Also, I saw a bit on TV about an African-American couple who have had
> >three
> >(!) "white" children.  Just how they define "white" was unspecified, this
> >being TV, but I think it's quite possible that Vilani, like Euros, could
> >grow
> >paler over the millennia.
>
> I suspect part of this could actually be how they defined "black", which
> used to mean having _any_ black ancestor.  I think "octaroons" had one
> black great-grandparent to seven white great-grandparents, for example,
> but were still considered "black".  Given some recessive traits, and...

Thats correct.  Their were many such terms for different fractional
amounts of 'black' or African ancestors.  There are some for European
descendents as well.  Its been a long time since I was studyed these
issues.  I do recall where I learned of all the different terms.  It was one
of those old and huge dictionaries at a library under the term
"Miscegenation."


> I have noticed that American TV doesn't seem to show "mixed race" couples
> at all, but then as I watch very little American TV this could well be
> sampling error.

Um, ever hear of the Jeffersons?  They broke the ground. Don't know
of any modern ones currently though, but you have romances on
Ally McBeal (don't watch it - its awful).

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:12:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

Bont wrote:

> I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I
> miss something completely, here?

T4 is not limited to a certain tech level.
Milieu 0 is the beginning of TL-12 for the Sylean Federation/3I.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:15:59 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Eris Reddoch writes:
>
> >We are told that the minor races were transplanted about 400,000
> >years ago, correct?
>
> Incorrect. That is, we are told that in several places, but those places
> are incorrect. The original information about the Ancients was that they
> arose around -310,000 and lasted till around -290,000. The transplantations
> from Earth took place around -300,000 (but the Ancients visited Earth 'a
> number of times', so it could have been spread out a couple of thousand
> years).

FWIW:
Looking at MT Imperial Encyclopedia:
Imperial -400,000 = 300,000 Vilani : Humans transplanted
Imperial -300,000 = Final War destroys Ancients

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:00:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 12:31 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Along those lines, I was taught in the Navy that the FIRST thing to do
>to break up an enlisted scuffle was yell "attention on deck!"

When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.

I proceeded to hurt him.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:23:28 -0700
From: Clayton <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 starports

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> So what do you all think?  Is it better to delete the port list and
> insert a paragraph about the kinds and number of spaceports on
> Earth?  
Yes.

> Does it even make sense to try to enumerate all starports
> on Earth in the 21st century?  
That is a lot of work and the individual GM will probably change it
anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:14:39 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Lifting off

> I hope this is an easy question: how does a Free Trader 
> lift off?
>
> [...possibilities snipped...]
>
> The answer, of course, will make a BIG difference to the general > flavor of the
> game!

I think this varies with the ruleset in use. I'm only 
actually familiar with CT and (to a lesser extent) MT rules.

First of all, a Free Trader generates only 1G, so on a 
normal-density size 9 or 10 world, the balloon route and 
the rocket route are both impossible. We could give the 
Free Trader the benefit of the doubt and allow the balloon
route on size 8 or smaller worlds. 

Megatraveller's Starship Operator's Guide points out that 
the full G rating is only available in one direction, so 
the Free Trader can't take off like a rocket at 1G on a 
world greater than about size 2; MT/SOG thrusters can thrust
perpendicularly at about 25% of potential. 

MT/SOG gets around this problem by allowing brief periods of 
overdrive, so the Free Trader *can* take off like a rocket 
after all. I think the overdrive period was short enough that
after getting moving, it would have to nose-up and go back to
1G, with the possibility of streamline lift to help out.

To keep a 1G ship from being stuck on a 1.1G world, you 
have to either use atmospheric effects, or have an "overdrive"
of some sort, or have a tugboat or booster rocket to help. 

On a world with no atmosphere, you could overdrive your way 
into a *very* low orbit, then boost your orbit higher with 
normal drive levels. 

IMTU, I have an antigravity drive whose gee potential 
depends on the local gee field. A 1x gravitic drive thus 
instantly brings the whole ship to neutral buoyancy; I 
have to assume that a 1x drive is really a 1.01x drive 
for this to work, but then I have the balloon route. 
Reaction and reactionless motors are also available for 
people who can't afford to have a near-zero thrust when 
they're far from a planet (i.e. warships). This gives 
something of the flavor of "sail powered" versus motorized 
ships. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:31:46 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Daibei and Reavers Deep up.

Derek Stanley wrote:

> Well after days and weeks and years of procrastination I've finally
> finished basic HTMLising for Daibei.

This is MT right? 1119?  I wasn't sure since the first page refers to Virus
and has a quote from 1199.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:37:40 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: OT: Hackers...

>
>>From My Yahoo
>
>Sunday February 28 7:22 AM ET 
>
>Hackers Reportedly Seize British Military Satellite
>
>LONDON (Reuters) - Hackers have seized control of one of Britain's
>military communication satellites and issued blackmail
>threats, The Sunday Business newspaper reported.
>
>The newspaper, quoting security sources, said the intruders altered the
>course of one of Britain's four satellites that are used by
>defense planners and military forces around the world.
>
>The sources said the satellite's course was changed just over two weeks
>ago. The hackers then issued a blackmail threat,
>demanding money to stop interfering with the satellite.
>
>``This is a nightmare scenario,'' said one intelligence source. Military
>strategists said that if Britain were to come under nuclear
>attack, an aggressor would first interfere with military communications
>systems.
>
>``This is not just a case of computer nerds mucking about. This is very,
>very serious and the blackmail threat has made it even
>more serious,'' one security source said.
>
>Police said they would not comment as the investigation was at too
>sensitive a stage. The Ministry of Defense made no
>comment. 
>

ObTrav: This *screams* Traveller adventure plot...

douglas

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:32:14 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: RE: Trojan Reach Info

Information about Trojan Reach sector was published in the following 
places:

Trojan Reach	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Egryn (B) and Pax Rulin (C) subsectors in
			Adventure 4 - Leviathan (CT)
		subsectors A, D - L in issues of Third Imperium (CT)
		sector map and library data in TD #20 (RT)
		full details in MTJ #3 (RT)
		C, D, G and H subsectors in Regency Sourcebook (VT)
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:41:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions 

> 4.  What is (are) the damage value(s) of "standard" LasDet missiles in
> BL?

1/25-80 (ie 80 points, losing 80/25 (3.2) points for each point of armour)

Actually, they are even nastier - 1/25 means it loses 1 pint of damage for
every 25 armour points.

Eamon Wattes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:51:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

...
>In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
>(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
>idea from David Brin.)

  "It's got a great sense of humour. But don't eat the corndogs".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:39:47 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: (debate) Solomani Sam resp Mother Duck bs Solomani Sam

In a message dated 2/28/99 6:18:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< 
 You propose that each world gets a vote at the legislature. Very well, I
 shall fund my friends to set up a number of colonies, on other wise
 uninhabited worlds.
  >>

You missed the point of a bicameral legislature. You have one half based on
population to prevent nonsense like that....(try and outvote a population A
world...)

Solomani Sam

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:52:31 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Evolution of skin colour

Steve Daniels writes:
"Well, I can't speak about other factors much, but melanin-
production, and thus skin color, is fairly sensitive to 
environment over time. Although, differences in melanin levels 
certainly don't mean different races."

	There are both 'environmental' and 'genetic' influences
	on most traits, and skin colour is no exception. It has
	been hypothesized that europeans evolved lighter skin
	because 1) lighter-skinned individuals could better
	produce vitamin D, and/or 2) lighter-skinned individuals
	saved food energy because they did not have to produce 
	as much metabolically expensive melanin. Thus, on 
	average, lighter-skinned individuals may have enjoyed a
	slight advantage in survival and reproduction in europe.
	This would lead to genetic changes over the generations.
	Environmental changes (such as tanning) occur within an 
	organism's life and do not affect the skin colour of
	offspring (except that your offspring may tan in response
	to starlight as you did).

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:35:38 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Trojan Reach Info

Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:01:08 PST "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:


>Does anyone know where I can find more detailed info on the Trojan reach >sector beyond the info contained in Adv. 3. I found the UWP list for the 
>sector on the Web....


There's Library Data, sector map, UWPs and more in Travellers' Digest #20.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:11:51 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Steve Daniels writes:
"However, "Eve" comes in.  The name given to the female 
African who is theorized to be the 'mother' of all humans, 
i.e., only her children and their offspring survived to 
evolve.  The children of here siblings did not."

	The determination of 'Eve' is somewhat statistical,
	and even if accepted at face value should not be 
	interpreted to mean that none of her contemporaries
	left offspring. To make a long story short, 'genetic
	drift' is expected to eventually eliminate all but
	one version of any selectively neutral gene. If 
	genetic drift has eliminated all but one 
	mitochondrial 'genome', it is EXTREMELY unlikely 
	(read impossible) that none of the genes from Eve's
	contemporaries have survived as well. In fact, it is
	posible that they left even more descendents than Eve.

"I know lots of people that are the product of 'mixed' marriages 
(excuse that term, please. I hate it myself but don't have a god 
substitute)."

	There has always been significant gene flow between the
	groups that we call 'races'. That is to say, 'mixed' 
	marriages (or at least children) are not a modern 
	phenomenon, although social acceptance does seem to be
	growing (at last). The bottom line is that there are
	genes from europeans floating around in families with
	no APPARENT european ancestors.

	(I also dislike the term 'mixed', but am no better at 
	producing an alternative.)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:17:50 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Some questions...

Bruce Johnson writes:
">Sandcasters: 
<snipped>
Oh, and the kinetic energy released by
> thousands of grains of sand hitting a missile is nothing to frown at,
> so a sandcaster could be used for last-ditch anti-missile defense
> (probably only against KKMs, and chemlaser warheads - if it doesn't
> hit the missile, at least it'll stop the beam).

Yes. Yes they are the Shotguns from Hell agaiunst personnell on the
ground but are _very_ short range weapons. Dunno why they dont affect
particle beams. And yes they could be usable as missile defence,
_except_ under FFS and IIRC FFS2 missiles are standoff det-laser
weapons."

	IIRC sandcasters may be used as defense against missiles in
	High Guard.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:17:34 -0600
From: Tom Floyd <tmfloyd@usit.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Doug, I know the feeling!

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 12:31 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >Along those lines, I was taught in the Navy that the FIRST thing to do
> >to break up an enlisted scuffle was yell "attention on deck!"
>
> When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
> alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
> FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
>
> I proceeded to hurt him.
> --
>
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:22:11 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
> > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > > BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> > > post?

> > I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.

I can understand that. ;-> I don't think my players would want me to
adopt the dice server approach either.

> Well, I am considering it, but of course I would ask first....

> > I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.

Personally, I'm the same way as both player and GM. The players should
stay in character, tell the GM what they want to do and let him decide
whether it worked or not. How the GM decides isn't an issue as long as
the players trust the GM to be "fair"..whatever *that* means. ;->  If
I didn't trust my GM I wouldn't play in his game, and if my players
don't trust me then they shouldn't play with me.
 
> <fake anger>
> Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something,
> Major B. Louis?
> </fake anger>

Hee! Hee! It happens FTF too. How many of us haven't rolled handfuls
of dice and ignored the results while spinning some fantastic yarn?
;->

> > It seems reasonable if you really want to have player influence.

Player influence comes from *roleplaying* in my games. Even the
"rollers" have to rely mostly on roleplaying.

OTOH, I've played with a few people that really like "having their
fate in their own hands" and for them I let them roll the dice on life
and death tasks, and sometimes on fateful tasks that they didn't think
would be life and death. ;-> When I hand the dice to Julian he tenses
up like a tiger getting ready to spring, because he knows that when he
rolls whatever is about to happen will be momentous. OTOH, I never
give the dice to Ben or Sally, he just wants to know "what happened"
so he can decide on his next move, and she wants to roleplay
everything out without the distractions of rolling dice.

Different paths leading to the same goal!

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:23:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Ewwww.....

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:

> Ob Trav:  Lots of human races out there in the Imperium; any odd
> pigmentations?  Does the Vilani diet give a greenish or bluish tint to the
> skin?  Eye and hair colors we don't have on Earth?  (IMTU there is a common
> Vilani mutation/adaptation that causes bright green hair and a greensih
> skin tint; more common on Vland, but found in about 10% of all
> Vilani-strain humans).

Well, it goes without saying that the Sayat are red.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:30:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> This reminds me of a peeve of mine:  What the heck are the Sayat?
> And the Suerrat too?  Occasionally these guys show up in some post
> on the list.  Is there any info about these 'alleged' races on the web.
> I saw 'alleged' because I'm not altogether sure that they exist
> at all.  For all I know, they're code words for the Templars.

The Suerrat are mentioned glancingly in CT and MT publications, but were
never really described at all (IIRC).  Someone on the list -- I forget who
- -- wrote up and posted a fair bit of their biology/history/civ. a year or
two ago.  Essentially they're an arboreally-adapted, scent-oriented,
hirsute bunch in Ilelish or thereabouts who had a small interstellar
polity before contact by the Z.S., using generation ships.

The Sayat have no basis whatsoever in "canon" and are wholly my own
brainchildren.  They have nothing to do with the Templars at all.  Honest.
They're the counter-Templars, though, I suppose you could say.  Or maybe
parallels to the Templars, in regards to their obsession with the esoteric
aspects of the Illuminated Traveller Universe.  They used to have a
website, which has been removed.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:36:55 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I was just suggesting the possibility that the various minor human
> > "races" are probably about as close to each other as Terran humans
> > are to bonos or chimps.  Well, OK, a little closer.  ;->

> Sorry, but the chimp/human/gorilla split was 3-4 *million* years ago.
> Yet even at that distance there is serious speculation about possible
> limited crossbreeding being possible.

That's why I put the smiley in, Leonard. ;->  The speculation about
crossbreeding of humans and chimps is just that..speculation, and to
be honest, I'd just as soon it remains simple speculation.
 
> The Ancients were only 300-400 thousand years ago. That's 1/10th the
> time. A lot more recent. And the odds are *much* stronger that we'd
> still be interfertile.

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know, and that's why I presented my comments
as questions. 

Do we have any applicable data from lower species successfully
interbreeding after being separated for comparable periods of time?
 
Eris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:35:54 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lost in the Ziru Sirka

In a message dated 3/1/99 10:00:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< BTW: On Fox news today, they were given the Aliens-Built-The-Pyramids
 people more time than the Non-ET Egyptologists and presenting the
 story without tongue in cheek.
  >>

The fact that the story was aired on Fox news speaks for itself....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:11:05 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

<<SNIP>>
> The phrase "I knocked up your sister" also has drastically different
meanings
>in England and America
<<UNSNIP>>

And you get funny looks if you are a Yank on the London Underground and
start talking about 'tossing the trash'...  It happened to my mate and his
sister.

Mind you, if *you*know that certain phrases mean different things, you can
have quite a laugh holding a 'different' conversation to the one the person
you're talking to *thinks* you're having...
"Cor, look at the warheads on that!" - pc#1, looking at attractive SWF in
                                                             front of
missile launcher.
"Uh, yeah..?"                                        - pc#2, looking at pc#1
an worrying.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #233
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 234



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #233
Re: Ewwww.....
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution 
Using the Delete key
Re: Hackers...
RE: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: Viscous Flame-Fests (was: Re: Moral Umbrage...)
Re: Trojan Reach Info.
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re:  Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Tooting my own small horn
Re: Evolution 
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: A simple question (or not) ...
re: Adventure Hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Smallpox
re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Evolution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:50:51 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP

It was my understanding that it would affect even turned-off equipment and
dynamos in motors.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:44:17 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)


>At 12:31 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
>
>I proceeded to hurt him.
>--
>


My sister pulled the same stunt, using a whistle.  It was a very close
thing...

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:59:13 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #233

> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:31:46 -0500
> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: Daibei and Reavers Deep up.
>
> Derek Stanley wrote:
>
> > Well after days and weeks and years of procrastination I've finally
> > finished basic HTMLising for Daibei.
>
> This is MT right? 1119?  I wasn't sure since the first page refers to Virus
> and has a quote from 1199.
>
> - --
> Bloo

Ya, the information is MT.  It's all background information for a TNE game I'm starting next weekend.  This ways the PC's have all the info they need
and I don't have to do much more work.

I thought though that seeing as it's MT information that there might be a number of people interested in the contents of the pages.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:58:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Ewwww.....

When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half Psi,
or what?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:00:31 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

<<SNIP>>
>When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
<<UNSNIP>>

0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
here...

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:04:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

>There was a British television series about this  topic called "Gor", IIRC.
>Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
>A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm and then
>inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit
exceedingly
>hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and strong
>man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it becomes a soap
>opera.  I won't ruin it for you.

I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:51:54 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Using the Delete key

I read Mr. Zeigler's comments and understand where he is coming from. It
must be pointed out that it's easy to use the delete key on a certain
person's posts when you are NOT getting the Digest version. It is harder to
avoid seeing them when you get them all in one big message. Perhaps the
solution is just to do away with the Digest version altogether, since asking
for polite and considerate behavior seems to be impossible.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:11:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Hackers...

Either SMERSH or Dr. Evil appears to be in action, again.

(A somewhat distant silhouette of a man in a tux begins to stroll across the
screen.)

- --Clif

>>The sources said the satellite's course was changed just over two weeks
>>ago. The hackers then issued a blackmail threat,
>>demanding money to stop interfering with the satellite.
>>
>>``This is a nightmare scenario,'' said one intelligence source. Military
>>strategists said that if Britain were to come under nuclear
>>attack, an aggressor would first interfere with military communications
>>systems.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:23:55 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Evolution

Hey, I saw that one!

Try reading Kurt Vonnegut's Archipelago if you want some "genetic fun"

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Don't argue about the difficulties. The difficulties will argue for
themselves. (Winston Churchill)




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clif [SMTP:brclif@digital.net]
> Sent:	01 March 1999 15:05
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Re: Evolution
> 
> >There was a British television series about this  topic called "Gor",
> IIRC.
> >Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
> >A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm and
> then
> >inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit
> exceedingly
> >hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and
> strong
> >man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it becomes
> a soap
> >opera.  I won't ruin it for you.
> 
> I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )
> 
> 
> --Clif
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:14:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

>>In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
>>(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
>>idea from David Brin.)
>
Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from fondling
the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals, you're GONNA
have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species that
resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable dolls (since
they can't have children?).

- --Clif

>  "It's got a great sense of humour. But don't eat the corndogs".
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:16:03 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

At 11:30 AM 2/28/99 EST, you wrote:
>Oh, Great Caesar's ghost!   Can't I be safe from Vampie-freaks even in
>Traveller ;-)
>
>	
>

Now wait a minute.  If there are the long toothed blood drinking type
vampires in GT then my next GT character will be a TNS reporter with
rediculious luck and weirdness magnet named Carl Kolshack!  (Grin)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:16:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Viscous Flame-Fests (was: Re: Moral Umbrage...)

At 11:25 AM 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> 
>> Man, I _hate_ this viscous flame-fest.  It's so gluey and thick.  It
>> sticks to everything else on the list.  I mean, the first time you
>> experience it, it's not so bad, but the constant repetition makes it get
>> all clotted and syrupy.  Where's Vanna when we need her, to swap an "s"
>> for an "i"?  (I know, I know, the Templars nabbed her for use in some
>> unspeakable Barbie instantiation ritual.)
>> 
>> Kenji
>
>Actually, "viscous" is fairly accurate.  It's gumming up the works,
>people are getting stuck in it and can't let go....
>
>As this flame-fest's viscosity increases, we can expect bandwidth to
>slow to a crawl, until nothing TML-related gets through.
>
>ObTrav:  Would there be any use for a compound, the viscosity of which
>_increases_ as flame is applied?
>

Liquid solder, welding compound, heat set super glue.  A veriable viscosity
glue with set time and viscosity controled my heat over time would be a
great 'duct tape' like product to add to the ship's locker.

PS:  I refuse to add anything not related to Traveller to this thread.  I'm
hoping it will die off soon.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:18:21 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Trojan Reach Info.

Thanks Mark and Dom for the quick reply's

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:19:47 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

> >I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I 
> >miss something completely, here?
> 
> At higher TL's higher jump numbers become avalible.
> 
> TL-13  Jump-4
> TL-14  Jump-5
> TL-15  Jump-6

OK.  I guess what I should have said was, "I didn't know the 
Imperium had anything greater than Jump 3 in M0."  But this clears it 
up.  Thanks.

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:25:27 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Eris Reddoch writes:
"Do we have any applicable data from lower species successfully 
interbreeding after being separated for comparable periods of 
time?"

	The idea of 'lower species' is archaic (in the sense that
	biologists no longer think of 'higher' vs 'lower' species,
	all species in existance today are thought to have evolved
	from one common ancestor (or a very few), therefore they 
	have all been evolving for an equal amount of time and 
	none are 'higher' than others). No offense intended to Eris,
	many (most?) people tend to think of insects (for example) 
	as 'lower' than humans. Just another example of our 
	humanocentric view of the universe.

	According to Futuyma (Evolutionary Biology, 3rd edition, 
	1998, P. 462): "The time required for full reproductive
	isolation to evolve is very variable, but on average, it
	is achieved (after)...about 1.5-3.5 million years. 
	However, a considerable number of full species appear to 
	have evolved in less than 1 million years." (Futuyma's
	million is 1,000,000) In general, speciation will 
	procede most rapidly when selection is strong (resulting
	in rapid evolution).

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:24:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Then maybe we don't have it so easy, because it was 5:30 AM in Alaska if you
wanted to make it for Physical Training.

- --Clif

>>When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>>alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>>FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
><<UNSNIP>>
>
>0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
>here...
>
>Jeff R.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:30:11 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Dice rolling in PBEMs

From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
> > > > BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> > > > post?

From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > > I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.
> > > I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or
> > > pretend to roll.

From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
> I can understand that. ;-> I don't think my players would want me to
> adopt the dice server approach either.

Eheeeeemmmmmm.... that's not fair! So Eri,s are you implicitly saying 
that if Bloo's character in my game is forced to use a dice server, 
*my* character in your game would be forced to do the same?

GLUPS... when I think in that roll to resist firing the shuttle's 
laser against the grav tank.. the one *you said* I barely passed...

OK, Bloo, maybe I won't use that system after all...

From: me ;-)
> > <fake anger>
> > Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something,
> > Major B. Louis?
> > </fake anger>

From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
> Hee! Hee! It happens FTF too. How many of us haven't rolled handfuls
> of dice and ignored the results while spinning some fantastic yarn?
> ;->

Once my FTF players did particularly well on a gaming session, it 
looked like one of those sporadic sessions where no PC dies. The 
game was quite interesting.. they were being prosecuted by half the 
planet, but they were on the right track to eventually discover 
why... and then they decided to assault the wrong place. Before they 
realized it, they were faced by a goon with a rocket launcher and his 
minions (couldn't help it, he *had* to be there, and he had been 
using that the whole session). Even if the goon failed, half the PCs 
were almost surely dead meat...

...so I rolled a lot of dice, and announced that the damned Rocket 
Launcher malfunctioned and the minions failed to react immediately...

...and all my players bursted out laughing. I couldn't understand 
why, and I was on the edge of asking, when I realized that I had 
forgotten to LOOK at the dice behind the screen. :-(
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:57:36 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Tooting my own small horn

Bruce Johnson
>
>While Jesse <bow scrape grovel> is the reigning king of Traveller 3D, I
>too have been working on a Donosev, of which I'm kinda proud...
>
>I'm at about the same level of detailing that he is, and at about the
>limit of where my work looks even remotely as good as his...good
>texturing is the really, REALLY hard part of 3-D work for me, and the
>part at which I am least successful so far..
>
>Anyway...for your perusal:
>
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html
>
>(it's down at the bottom)

Hey! Excellent job, Bruce!

Geez, between you and Jesse, I can't wait
to fill up my 11.5 Gig hard drive. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:34:20 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, steve daniels wrote:
> 
> > This reminds me of a peeve of mine:  What the heck are the Sayat?
> > And the Suerrat too?  Occasionally these guys show up in some post
> > on the list.  Is there any info about these 'alleged' races on the web.
> > I saw 'alleged' because I'm not altogether sure that they exist
> > at all.  For all I know, they're code words for the Templars.

> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> 
> The Suerrat are mentioned glancingly in CT and MT publications, but were
> never really described at all (IIRC).  Someone on the list -- I forget who
> - -- wrote up and posted a fair bit of their biology/history/civ. a year or
> two ago.  Essentially they're an arboreally-adapted, scent-oriented,
> hirsute bunch in Ilelish or thereabouts who had a small interstellar
> polity before contact by the Z.S., using generation ships.

	Joseph "Chepe" Lockett posted a long article on the 
Suerrat two years ago. I still have it, but it goes without saying 
that Joseph should be the one to re-circulate it.

	One of the JTAS published by IG had a two-pages article by John 
Snead (IIRC) on the Suerrat, sadly not totally compatible with 
Joseph's work.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:20:55 -0500
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

The only 100% effective counter to psionic interrogation is rigid
application of the principle of "need to know".  You can't be made to give
information you don't have.  Of course, this requires that the people who DO
have that info be made impossible to capture (alive).  Hypnotic compulsion
to commit suicide perhaps, or maybe just a minder with instructions to put a
bullet in your head if the need arises.  You may or may not know who that
minder is.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:38:37 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: A simple question (or not) ...

I'd just like to say thanks again to those of you who helped me out with
this question.

I suppose the EMP effect on starships could be handled similarly to a
radiation hit to on the starship combat tables, at least when the vessel is
in an atmosphere, right? Without the crew hits, that is. IIRC, it is the
interaction of gamma radiation with the atmosphere at certain altitudes
that causes the EMP effect, so this wouldn't be a problem in space.

Or would cms of superdense act as a shield against it? I suppose fib
computers and electronic systems would be immune to the effect as well, eh?


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:36:19 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Adventure Hooks from Real Life(tm)

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
here...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
0600 on a good day here. My one year old son fancies himself an
early riser. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:52:24 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Ian Ferguson wrote:

> Steve Daniels writes:
> "However, "Eve" comes in.  The name given to the female
> African who is theorized to be the 'mother' of all humans,
> i.e., only her children and their offspring survived to
> evolve.  The children of here siblings did not."
>
>         The determination of 'Eve' is somewhat statistical,
>         and even if accepted at face value should not be
>         interpreted to mean that none of her contemporaries
>         left offspring.

You're right of course.  I should have been clearer about the
theory.  I didn't mean to imply that 'Eve' had no nieces or
nephews.  Just that if 'Eve' is an accurate theory, then none of
her sibling's offsprings survive to the present day.  I'm certainly
in no position to say whether the Eve theory is accurate or not.
But I do like it, for no rational reason.

Ian, thanks for injecting some real knowledge into this discussion.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:55:58 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > > BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> > > post?
> > I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.
>
> Well, I am considering it, but of course I would ask first....
>
> > I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.
>
> <fake anger>
> Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something,
> Major B. Louis?
> </fake anger>

Uh oh.  I think the major is about to get shot.  Again.
;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:52:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Smallpox

Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:43:09 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> Bacteria aren't that specific.  They don't see you as an
>> "organism" but as just a bunch of chemicals and bacteria
>> are masters of adapting to new chemicals.  There is fairly
>> far fetched that the Vilani didn't have an bacteria to contend
>> with.

>Yes and no. (How's _that_ for a definitive response ;-) Bacteria do see you as
>a food source to graze on, but they also have pretty highly specific
>environmental requirements. Though they live everywhere life is possible, that
>does not mean they are interchangeable. Human pathogens are minicule
>proportion of the population of bacteria. Good thing, too, otherwise we'd be
>eaten alive.

True.  But the point is not that _every_ bacteria can live on
_anything_, but there are _some_ bacteria that live on almost
every possible energy source.

>One thing to remember, though, is that all life on this planet shares a
>similar 'handedness', that is, stereoisomers of compounds like amino acids,
>etc are all the same stereoisomer.

Actually, Traveller gives the strong impression that there is indeed
a prefered "handedness".  This is because it routinely treats food
as interchangable between organisms.

> One of the big differences on Vland, was
>that the handed-ness of lots (probably all) of such stereoisomers were the
>opposite.

I can't see how this would not be fatal to the humans.

>This would definitely inhibit bateria on Vland from getting a start on using
>them as hosts.

This is _not_ a barrier to bacteria.  There are bacteria that can
convert amino acids.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:51:43 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Zhodani Interrogation

Johannes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The only 100% effective counter to psionic interrogation is rigid
application of the principle of "need to know".  You can't be made to give
information you don't have.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A counterpart of this is short expiration dates on critical information.
Sure, they captured Captain Greykin - the information he has in his
head will start to go stale within minutes. It's quite possible (with high-tech
commo gear) to know Greykin is in enemy hands the moment it occurs,
and change all codes and call signs within minutes of that. Grav tanks
and vehicles can move continental distances in hours, they can easily
be elsewhere when Greykin's capture starts to comprimise their positions.

Tactical intelligence should be of limited use - by the time you interrogate
Greykin and get the info to your squad leaders, Greykin's assault will
already be over one way or the other. Operational & Strategic information
is tougher, though...if Greykin knew your three-week plan before he got
captured, you are now on day one of a new three week plan. 

I'm thinking that Imperial forces have a nice, thick book on how operations
are different when faced with a telepathic foe. Considering that any enemy
may have telepaths along, they may use these "differences" as SOP.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:04:50 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> The Suerrat are mentioned glancingly in CT and MT publications, but were
> never really described at all (IIRC).  Someone on the list -- I forget who
> -- wrote up and posted a fair bit of their biology/history/civ. a year or
> two ago.  Essentially they're an arboreally-adapted, scent-oriented,
> hirsute bunch in Ilelish or thereabouts who had a small interstellar
> polity before contact by the Z.S., using generation ships.

I did see their homeworld is designated in First Survey.

> The Sayat have no basis whatsoever in "canon" and are wholly my own
> brainchildren.  They have nothing to do with the Templars at all.  Honest.
> They're the counter-Templars, though, I suppose you could say.  Or maybe
> parallels to the Templars, in regards to their obsession with the esoteric
> aspects of the Illuminated Traveller Universe.  They used to have a
> website, which has been removed.

Hmm.  Interesting.  These are the red-skinned people?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #234
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 1 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 235



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
Re: Whorish, Painted Donosev
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #234
Zho/Vilani crossbreeding (was Re: Ewwww.....)
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Evolution
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #234 (Evolution)
Re: Evolution
Re: Using the delete key
RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Evolution
Vampires in Traveller
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Vampires in Traveller
RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:02:04 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

Charles Prevatte said...

>Now wait a minute.  If there are the long toothed blood drinking type
>vampires in GT then my next GT character will be a TNS reporter with
>rediculious luck and weirdness magnet named Carl Kolshack!  (Grin)


Hehehe... Will he still wear a straw hat? ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:06:57 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

Bont wrote:

> OK.  I guess what I should have said was, "I didn't know the
> Imperium had anything greater than Jump 3 in M0."  But this clears it
> up.  Thanks.

In the Milieu 0 hardcover, there's mention of a group of worlds
in Lishun, one of which, Paran, is TL-13.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:10:35 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Ian Ferguson wrote:

>         According to Futuyma (Evolutionary Biology, 3rd edition,
>         1998, P. 462): "The time required for full reproductive
>         isolation to evolve is very variable, but on average, it
>         is achieved (after)...about 1.5-3.5 million years.
>         However, a considerable number of full species appear to
>         have evolved in less than 1 million years." (Futuyma's
>         million is 1,000,000) In general, speciation will
>         procede most rapidly when selection is strong (resulting
>         in rapid evolution).

Thanks, Ian!  That means Terran-Vilani interfertility is very
plausible. Canon is preserved!

 It should allow for some interfertility with the Zhodani
as well, shouldn't it?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:13:00 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Whorish, Painted Donosev

Jesse,

Once more my envy knows no bounds! Another superb peice of art! Ugly she
may be but your talents make her look grand. Would you mind if I
captured all of your art into a "rotating" screen saver? 
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:15:43 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #234

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half Psi,
> or what?

The child looks at you and says:
"I knew you were going to fill in that tax income report." ;->
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:17:40 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Zho/Vilani crossbreeding (was Re: Ewwww.....)

Clif posted:
>
> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn
> out? At half Psi, or what?

Per the CT Alien Supplement on the Zhos, psi ability is
*not* genetic. One could easily have a non-psi child
born of two psi parents and vice versa. I never could
figure that one out. My favorite PC of all time is a
Zho/Vilani crossbreed and he is most definitely psionic.

I'd say there's no such thing as a "half Psi". Per
Traveller canon (all flavors), all characters can
roll for a Psi rating and, if trained, maintaining
for the rest of their life the Psi rating they have
at the time of training. Therefore, *every* character
is (technically) psionic unless their Psi rating is zero.
They're simply not trained to use it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:19:38 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

UPDATE 55464-er-444

SIR,
It is the concidered opinion of this operative that the entity calling
itself "Kenji" is, in fact, a composite personality! No single sapient
could continue to destroy keyboards with such alarming regularity while
evading us so readily!

I must agree with our brethren. Full military intervention is, not only
recommended, but REQUIRED! The keyboards of the world demand
retribution!

Faceless Minion #34556

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
> >
> > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to be
> > allowed freedom.
> 
> Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
> slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.
> 
> We respectfully request full military intervention.
> 
> Faceless Minion

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:23:26 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

- -----Original Message-----
From: StevenA201@aol.com <StevenA201@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Evolution


>Wasn't it Louis Farrakhan who taught that caucasians were the result of
alien
>genetic experiments?


Farrakhan may spout it, which I am unsure, but he didn't originate it. I
think it began with Elijah Muhammad, but I'm not positive.

It might be an interesting bit of high weirdness for a Traveller campaign
though. The discovery of "the mothership" and whatnot.

Although it's a touchy subject, what do race relations look like in the
Traveller universe? The assumption is usually that we've "gone beyond"
racism with the discovery of all these interesting alien and quasi-alien
cultures and appearances... race hate groups are replaced with those like
"The Rule of Terra" and the like. Would we really though? Ultimately, it's
much like the inclusion of real world religions: best left up to the
individual TU builders out there, but it is an interesting thought.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:25:17 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

johannes posted:
>
> The only 100% effective counter to psionic interrogation is rigid
> application of the principle of "need to know".  You can't be made to give
> information you don't have.  Of course, this requires that the people who
DO
> have that info be made impossible to capture (alive).  Hypnotic compulsion
> to commit suicide perhaps, or maybe just a minder with instructions to put
a
> bullet in your head if the need arises.  You may or may not know who that
> minder is.

One hand wave method was described in the CT adventure "Expedition to
Zhodane." In this adventure, a device was developed by the IISS which
implanted a false personality into a person. The subject would absolutely
believe the false personality and would "come out of it" only if he/she
saw a certain symbol specified during the implantation process. The
adventure centers around the adventurers trying to rescue the IISS
operative who was using the device to be able to study all aspects of
Zhodani culture first-hand (yeah, right).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:38:40 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Evolution

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>However, "Eve" comes in.  The name given
>to the female African who is theorized to be the 'mother' of all humans,
>i.e., only her children and their offspring survived to evolve.  The
>children
>of here siblings did not.

Actually, this was explained wrong in the popular press.

Assuming that the tests are correct, we all share Eve as a common
ancester. However, she is not our only ancester. There is no scientific
reason to believe that all other humans alive at the time (except her
children) died off - they just interbred.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:43:19 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Evolution

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>> I have noticed that American TV doesn't seem to show "mixed race"
>couples
>> at all, but then as I watch very little American TV this could well be
>> sampling error.
>
>Um, ever hear of the Jeffersons?  They broke the ground. Don't know
>of any modern ones currently though, but you have romances on
>Ally McBeal (don't watch it - its awful).

Never heard of them. Like I said, I watch little American TV. Come to
that, I watch little TV period. Hm. Battlefield Vietnam's on tonight,
DaVinci's Inquest is Wednesday, Heat of the Sun is over... that's it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:48:54 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #234 (Evolution)

> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:58:45 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: Ewwww.....
>
> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half Psi,
> or what?

Honestly I rather doubt it.  Zho's have no higher chances on Psi than do the Vilani, its just the Zho's check them immediately and utilize them.  The
Vilani do not.  Likely they would have a combination of physical characteristics though.

> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:14:02 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: Evolution
>
> >>In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
> >>(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
> >>idea from David Brin.)
> >
> Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from fondling
> the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals, you're GONNA
> have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species that
> resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable dolls (since
> they can't have children?).

I would assume he's talking about an Aslan/Human couple rather than a Vilani/Solomani couple.  Personally I've never seen a problem with this, people
from different species getting together because they share common interests etc.  While breeding is impossible and who would want to kiss something with
doggie breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there 8^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species couldn't find
something in common which attracted them to one another and kept them together for the long term.

The thing I don't understand in your above statement is why do you assume that a mixed species couple ie. Solomani and Alsan are some how devient?
They're both sentient species and they both realize the consequences of their actions, more power to them if that's what they want.  Particularly if
there's some sort of attraction there in the first place and lets face it its likely that this attraction would begin as a purely intellectual one.

> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:25:27 -0500
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: Re: Evolution
>
> Eris Reddoch writes:
> "Do we have any applicable data from lower species successfully
> interbreeding after being separated for comparable periods of
> time?"

I think the closest things you'd want to look at here are animals like, zebra's and horses, or horse and donkeys/asses.  While the horse and the
donkey/ass are capable of interbreading and producing offspring the offspring itself, the mule, is incapable of reproducing.

>         The idea of 'lower species' is archaic (in the sense that
>         biologists no longer think of 'higher' vs 'lower' species,
>         all species in existance today are thought to have evolved
>         from one common ancestor (or a very few), therefore they
>         have all been evolving for an equal amount of time and
>         none are 'higher' than others). No offense intended to Eris,
>         many (most?) people tend to think of insects (for example)
>         as 'lower' than humans. Just another example of our
>         humanocentric view of the universe.

I have to agree with you here, though it's been nearly a decade since I took any biology courses I always thought this view was somehow out dated.
Morphologically if you look at even widely different creatures you see a great many skelital similarities.  We all crawled out of the same goo 4 billion
years ago, its the time since then that things have gotten interesting.

>         According to Futuyma (Evolutionary Biology, 3rd edition,
>         1998, P. 462): "The time required for full reproductive
>         isolation to evolve is very variable, but on average, it
>         is achieved (after)...about 1.5-3.5 million years.
>         However, a considerable number of full species appear to
>         have evolved in less than 1 million years." (Futuyma's
>         million is 1,000,000) In general, speciation will
>         procede most rapidly when selection is strong (resulting
>         in rapid evolution).

This is something which is as you say, highly sellective and based greatly upon natural selection and other environmental factors.  Given the harsh
nature of the Vilani homeworld in the years following the Ancients War, I'm surprised that a greater degree of speciation didn't occure there.  The
selective pressures were definitely at a premium but apparently they weren't sufficient to result in any significant changes.

The minor human race I've postulated for my Confederaton of Nightrim PBEM works under the assumption that selective pressures were high enough which
combined with a certian degree of genetic engineering on behalf of the ancients has resulted in speciation.  Thus, while the Ayansh'i are capable of
interbreeding with the rest of the Homo genus their offspring are not genetically viable and thus must be classified as Homo Ayansh'i rather than Homo
Sapiens Ayansh'i.  This works under the assumption that humanity is divided into subspecies catagories.  Homo Sapiens Solomani, Homo Sapiens Vilani, Homo
Sapiens Zhodani etc...

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Sociological/Ayanshi.html

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:05:13 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Steve Daniels writes:
"I didn't mean to imply that 'Eve' had no nieces or nephews.  
Just that if 'Eve' is an accurate theory, then none of her 
sibling's offsprings survive to the present day."

	I'm sorry, I did not explain very well. Even if 'Eve' 
	is an accurate theory, it is still probable that her
	siblings, cousins, distant relatives, etc. have living
	descendants today. For example, as soon as Eve's 
	daughter 'marries' the son of Maria, then all of Eve's
	descendants through that daughter are also Maria's 
	descendants. It is only Eve's mitochondrial DNA that
	has supplanted all others. Possibly, there was a 'Maria' 
	out there whose gene for alcohol dehydrogenase has
	supplanted all others, and even a 'Sergei' whose gene 
	for insulin has supplanted all others. Just by random
	chance, such a process is inevitable for every gene if
	1) we wait long enough, and 2) natural selection does
	not tend to maintain more than one form of a gene.

	P.S. Bear in mind that even if all mitochondria have
	descended from one woman, they are not all identicle.
	Mutations are constantly appearing. In fact, it is
	unlikely that all of the mitochondria in your body 
	are genetically identicle.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:56:54 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Using the delete key

Traveller-digest wrote:
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:51:54 -0500
> From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
> Subject: Using the Delete key
> 
> I read Mr. Zeigler's comments and understand where he is coming from. It
> must be pointed out that it's easy to use the delete key on a certain
> person's posts when you are NOT getting the Digest version. It is harder to
> avoid seeing them when you get them all in one big message. Perhaps the
> solution is just to do away with the Digest version altogether, since asking
> for polite and considerate behavior seems to be impossible.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. As a Digest
reader, I find "page down" to work just fine.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:15:40 -0600 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

On Monday, 01 March 1999 00:56, Evyn MacDude [SMTP:wmacdude@concentric.net]
wrote:
> 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
> >
> > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to
> > be
> > allowed freedom.
> 
> Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating

Eeeewwwww  ...   yet ... strangely attractive...

> and keeps
> slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.

Obviously, some FS techno-marvel keeps Kenji safe...

> We respectfully request full military intervention.

God, yes -- Please! We need Ecclesiastical Support!  Now!

- - -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:49:10 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
> >> I have noticed that American TV doesn't seem to show "mixed race"
> >couples
> >> at all, but then as I watch very little American TV this could well be
> >> sampling error.
> >
> >Um, ever hear of the Jeffersons?  They broke the ground. Don't know
> >of any modern ones currently though, but you have romances on
> >Ally McBeal (don't watch it - its awful).
> 
> Never heard of them. Like I said, I watch little American TV. 

All I'll say is that there are more inter-racial couples on US TV now
than there were 20, 30, 40 years ago.  Of course, minorities are still
badly under represented, period.

> I watch little TV period. Hm. Battlefield Vietnam's on tonight,
> DaVinci's Inquest is Wednesday, Heat of the Sun is over... that's it.

Heat of the Sun?  The mysteries set in Kenya?  Five episodes were just
on PBS here. We start a cycle of Morse this week.

ObTrav....Murder on Actarus <sp>

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:57:09 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Vampires in Traveller

I remember several JTAS (first incarnation) articles/adventures
which happened to have a vampire theme.  One, which has already
been mentioned, was the glow plague thing.  There was another
that took place on a cold world where the rulers were anmic, and
needed regular transfusion; the blood for this was supplied by
the populace via lottery.  I seem to recall others, but I can't
recall identifying details.

One thing I _do_ remember, though - all of the "vampire" things
keyed on a word that would Soundex as equivalent to "porphyria" -
and it was usually the name of the planet.

I also seem to recall reading about a genetic condition that made
a person extremely intolerant of UV, to the point where the
person could have holes eaten in their skin through exposure to
ordinary sunlight.  This could easily be used as a hook into
other "vampire" stories.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:35:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> > The Sayat have no basis whatsoever in "canon" and are wholly my own
> > brainchildren.  They have nothing to do with the Templars at all.  Honest.
> > They're the counter-Templars, though, I suppose you could say.  Or maybe
> > parallels to the Templars, in regards to their obsession with the esoteric
> > aspects of the Illuminated Traveller Universe.  They used to have a
> > website, which has been removed.
> 
> Hmm.  Interesting.  These are the red-skinned people?

These are, if you please, the red-skinned triggerhappy paranoid lesbian
communist mutants -- from outer space, naturally.  And their unspeakable
friends.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:37:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> It might be an interesting bit of high weirdness for a Traveller campaign
> though. The discovery of "the mothership" and whatnot.

Wow.  This is actually an extremely neat & creepy idea.  And a lot more
fascinating as an adventure (heck, a campaign) pretext than _Secrets of
the Ancients_ was.

> Traveller universe? The assumption is usually that we've "gone beyond"
> racism with the discovery of all these interesting alien and quasi-alien
> cultures and appearances... race hate groups are replaced with those like
> "The Rule of Terra" and the like. Would we really though? Ultimately, it's
> much like the inclusion of real world religions: best left up to the
> individual TU builders out there, but it is an interesting thought.

Terminology gets weird here, because in the Traveller universe, the Aslan
& Hiver et al. _are_ "other races".  So in that sense, yeah, "racism" is
alive and well.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:39:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> been mentioned, was the glow plague thing.  There was another
> that took place on a cold world where the rulers were anmic, and
> needed regular transfusion; the blood for this was supplied by
> the populace via lottery.  I seem to recall others, but I can't

I remember that one -- I think the world was named Sainte Foy (Foi?); the
PCs were rentacops to protect a big shipment of blood from an offworld
medical-supply corporation.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:44:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

First of all, I can't tell y'all how gratifying it is -- inhumanly
gratifying, even -- that my loathsome frivolity has become the object of a
thread entitled "Moral Umbrage and all that rot."  Screw being a TML Great
Old One; I shall revel in being a TML Petty Intermittent Singularity.  Or
Plurality, depending on how much disk space there's available on the
Harvard servers for the other -- well, shall we say, slightly corrupted?
versions of me.



On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Moody, Danny M. wrote:

> > > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to
> > > be
> > > allowed freedom.
> > 
> > Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating
> 
> Eeeewwwww  ...   yet ... strangely attractive...

No, no, no -- it's only the undergraduates here that have that.  And no,
I'm not allowed to tell you why.

Kenjomatic(tm) 3.3 Personality Simulation Systems

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:43:49 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:
> 
> <<SNIP>>
> >When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
> >alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
> >FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
> <<UNSNIP>>
> 
> 0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
> here...
> 
They make you get up at 0615 _on leave_?  My sympathies....  ;-)

BTW, when I was going through Jump School at Ft. Benning, I wanted to
try something similar.  My plan was to go to the junior Enlisted Club (I
was a recently-promoted sergeant at the time), open the door, and yell,
"Jumpers, HIT IT!!", just to watch the beer spill as trainees leapt to
their feet, assumed a good, toght body postion, and counted: 
"ONE-thousand, TWO-thousand, THREE-thousand, FOUR-thousand!" 
Unfortunately, the EM club was closed for renovations during my three
weeks at Benning.

ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play our
share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....

> Jeff R.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: 01 Mar 1999 19:55:04 -0500
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:
> "Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please 
> tell me how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export 
> Control Authority". Its for my ongoing work on the IW period"
> 
> 	My french is far from perfect, but I would translate it
> 	to: "Regie des Exports Agricole du Federation" (the two 
> 	'e's in 'Federation' have forward-slanted / accents above
> 	them).

I was just playing with Altavista's 'Babelfish'
(babelfish.altavista.com) and it came up with these:

French:  Autorite Agricole De Commande D'Exportation De Confederation 
(accented e in 'autoritE' and 'confEdEration'

Spanish: Autoridad Agrcola Del Control De la Exportacin De la 
         Confederacin 
(accents in 'agrIcola', 'exportaciOn', and 'confereraciOn')

I don't speak either of those languages, so those could be terrible, but 
the German one ("ExportSteuerBerechtigung Des Buendnisses
Landwirtschaftliche") doesn't seem too loathsome to my dimly-remembered
high-school German.

- -- 
Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--
 "Every year, I get more and more cynical, but somehow I just
 can't keep up." - Lily Tomlin 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:58:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

This reminds me of a story my father told me about when he was in crypto in
the Navy during the Vietnam conflict.  It was his turn to watch for sappers
swimming up to the ship(?) and an M.P.(?) was assigned to watch him with a
.45 in case the enemy should show.  My dad asked, "Why don't I get a .45?"
The response was, "In that .45 are 6 shots(?).  The first 5 he will use on
the enemy; the last he will use on you."  My dad then asked, "Well why don't
you issue me a .45, also, so that I can help him shoot the enemy?"  The
answer came, "Because your first shot you will use on him, and the last 5
you will use on the enemy."

- --Clif

> Hypnotic compulsion
>to commit suicide perhaps, or maybe just a minder with instructions to put
a
>bullet in your head if the need arises.  You may or may not know who that
>minder is.
>
>John
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:57:30 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> First of all, I can't tell y'all how gratifying it is -- inhumanly
> gratifying, even -- that my loathsome frivolity has become the object of a
> thread entitled "Moral Umbrage and all that rot."  Screw being a TML Great
> Old One; I shall revel in being a TML Petty Intermittent Singularity.  Or
> Plurality, depending on how much disk space there's available on the
> Harvard servers for the other -- well, shall we say, slightly corrupted?
> versions of me.

Does that mean that we can uncorrupt you by running Scandisk?  Or will
it take more high-powered programs, such as Emperor Norton Utilities?

<<snip>>
> 
> Kenjomatic(tm) 3.3 Personality Simulation Systems

Ammunition for the theory I mentioned above....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #235
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 236



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Zhodani Half-Breed
Brain-children Having Children
Racial Cooperation
Mingling the Species
Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
[Debate] Delays in posting
T4 Design Post: REUBEN TUCKER Platoon Transport
Group Apology
Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Re: Group Apology
Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Evolution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:16:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Zhodani Half-Breed

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half
Psi,
> or what?

The child looks at you and says:
"I knew you were going to fill in that tax income report." ;->
Carlos Alos-Ferrer


Or it forever fails to bond with you when you think, "Damn!  His head is
misshapen!"

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:23:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Brain-children Having Children

>Therefore, *every* character
>is (technically) psionic unless their Psi rating is zero.
>They're simply not trained to use it.
>

So psionic capacity is not genetic?  Does psionic ability not come from full
or higher usage of the total mind?

Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...

Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a butt-ugly
nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the child's
APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's scores?  Some
genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in the husband
for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same with
eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?

How realistic would this be, or should I actually sit down with my biology
book and figure it out "the old-fashioned way"?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:30:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Racial Cooperation

>The assumption is usually that we've "gone beyond"
>racism with the discovery of all these interesting alien and quasi-alien
>cultures and appearances... race hate groups are replaced with those like
>"The Rule of Terra" and the like. Would we really though?

It seems to me that the "us vs. them" effect comes into play when there is
an outsider whose power (or "outsideness") transcends surface planetary
boundaries.

I know I'm citing a movie, again, but Independence Day 4 was a masterful bit
of propaganda giving us all (even if only for an hour or two) a great big
warm, race-spanning, fuzzy.  The conspiracy theorists in '95 (and maybe
still) believed that UFO propaganda was being used in a subtle way to
promote the one world U.N. Order.

Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico, you can bet
the South Americans and North Americans would find themselves at the lowest
common denominator(i.e., "human") and band together to trap these things in
a cross-fire.  Scrambling for survival, there would be no time to tell the
black man to get to the back of the C-130.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:44:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Mingling the Species

>I would assume he's talking about an Aslan/Human couple rather than a
Vilani/Solomani couple.  Personally I've never seen a problem with this, people
>from different species getting together because they share common interests
etc.  While breeding is impossible and who would want to kiss something with
>doggie breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there
^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species couldn't find
>something in common which attracted them to one another and kept them
together for the long term.
>

But I was talking about actual mating...

Yeah, like this...  VARGR:  "Yeah, scratch behind the ears.  A little lower,
oooh yeah, that's the spot.  Ahhhrrooooo!"

HUMAN WOMAN (mimicking Just for Men commercial, running her fingers through
it):  "I just LOVVVE your fur!"

And could you imagine the abuse that such a woman would suffer, with
comments like "leash bait" and "poodle pumper"...

>The thing I don't understand in your above statement is why do you assume
that a mixed species couple ie. Solomani and Alsan are some how devient?
>They're both sentient species and they both realize the consequences of
their actions, more power to them if that's what they want.

Deviant in that there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to the physical
attraction.  Supposedly, we're attracted to women with nice hips because she
should be able to bear more children.  There is supposed to be a
"preservation of the species" priority subconsciously driving our drive.

>  Particularly if
>there's some sort of attraction there in the first place and lets face it
its likely that this attraction would begin as a purely intellectual one.

Or maybe it would be as homosexuals claim, that they always had a hankering
to hold the paw of a vargr instead of a human female?  That they were born
that way?  Which leads me to wonder how that would be the case if the two
cultures hadn't met...  Would a "born as" Vargr-lover go through life
feeling like "something was missing" if she had never met a vargr?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:45:28 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports

>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:10:41 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports
>
>Mogadishu isn't very likely, as not only is it near sea level, but the
>area is very *non*-industrial. 
>

It's cheap, it's centrally located between the Middle East and East Africa
(a tremendous amount of coastwise shipping already goes by there), there's
a major airport (courtesy of the Soviets) going to waste, the weather is
better than Mombasa, it's very nearly on the Equator, and it sits on the
east coast.

>Quito has an advantage of altitude, but doesn't have much of a
>transport net to get things there.
>

Elevation and proximity to the equator were the overriding considerations
for placing massdrivers.

>Singapore is kinda small and low. NewGuinea is closer to the Equator,
>and the land is cheap. The Aussies have had an eye on it since the 50s.
>They might go in with some of the other nations in the area to develop
>a port there.
>

Again, a huge shipping center, very close to the equator, and incidently
about equidistant from Mogadishu and Quito. The difference is that
Singapore has the *money* to become a major player, once spaceplanes (HTOL)
or SSTO become available.

You don't need cheap land with spaceplanes, you need markets and intermodal
transportation.

>Nairobi isn't likely to be the port. Instead, they are more likely to
>have an electromagnetic launcher track running up the side of Mt.
>Kilamanjaro. 
>

Actually, the massdriver *is* at Mount Kilamanjaro; the port is misnamed,
for political reasons. [Pesky details you wouldn't have known -- sorry.]

>And what's wrong with Hawaii?
>

It's in the middle of nowhere -- there aren't any markets to support it,
import or export, and it costs almost as much to ship there for
transloading to orbit as it does to simply boost the stuff all the way from
wherever you started.

>There should be a listing for Vandenberg. Also Mojave isn't as good a
>site as the area north of White Sands. It's bigger, fewer ecological
>concerns, and has major rail and pipeline routes nearby. The pipelines
>provide oil and gas as fuel stocks. And less conflict with air traffic.
>

One of the primary considerations for siting a commercial spaceport has to
be approach and departure paths. Vandenberg is a terrible site for anything
except missiles; it is restricted by safety concerns to almost polar
orbital insertions. White Sands (IMTU) is still primarily an experimental,
not commercial or operational, facility, although the HELL could
conceivably be there instead of Colorado Springs.

Mojave is far enough from LA that the natives won't complain (much), near
enough to serve that huge market. Pipelines, rail and power are not
problems, either -- one of the reasons I picked it. Airspace really isn't
an issue that far out, either, although the main VOR airway from Las Vegas
to LAX might have to be rerouted somewhat.

Many of these sites were lifted from analysis of the commercial viability
of SSTO spaceship operations done by Dr. Robert Zubrin, the late G. Harry
Stine, and others.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:03:24 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> writes:
>I must agree with our brethren. Full military intervention is, not only
>recommended, but REQUIRED! 

Comrade Kenji, flee at once. All is revealed!   :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:28:26 -0500
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

One of the ways to translate it would be:

Direction de la Confration du contrle des exportations agricoles

Although the word Confederation would not be in there since most people
would know that it is a governmental organization.  The name could be:

Direction du contrle des exportations agricoles


Daniel Poulin


At 00:11 02/03/99 +1300, you wrote:
>Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please tell me
>how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export Control Authority". Its
>for my ongoing work on the IW period
>
>Premis: That as the Terrans start trading with the Vilani, they find a ready
>market for Terran foodstuffs as luxury goods in the Ziru Sirka. As a result
>Terran producers find they can get far better prices in the ZS and
>domestic prices in the Terran Confederation start to skyrocket. This leads
>to the CAECA which is the first expansion of TC authority outside of the
>strict military sphere.
>
>
>Andrew etc.
>  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>IMTU Code
>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge
>
>*****************************************************************
>Names Explained 5: ROSE
>As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
>unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
>female children from vegetation.
>*****************************************************************
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:48:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

        After a particularly long and ivolved night of gaming, my players
who are from across Canada, all camped out in my living room.  We're all
Naval Reserve.
        0630 my darling wife demonstrated her prowess with a Bos'n's
Pipe....  Wakey-wakey, followed by a still...  the confusion was...  humorous...

        --Michel (who is still trying to figure out how she learned that....)

At 02:17 PM 01/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Doug, I know the feeling!
>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>
>> At 12:31 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >Along those lines, I was taught in the Navy that the FIRST thing to do
>> >to break up an enlisted scuffle was yell "attention on deck!"
>>
>> When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>> alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>> FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
>>
>> I proceeded to hurt him.
>> --
>>
>> Doug Berry
>> dberry@hooked.net
>> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>
>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:32:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: [Debate] Delays in posting

Dear Folks -

I am still working on my response, while trying to read all the other
responses. Sorry it is taking so long. FWIW, you may be interested to note
the following information regading the volume of data:

     1.   The original request to start this thread came on 18/2/99 in
digest #163;
     2.   "Gallatin 1" was published on 22/2/99 in digest #173.
     3.   I am up to reading digest #220.
     4.   The latest digest in my Inbox is #235, dated 2/3/99.

In two weeks (!!) from 18/2/99 to today, 2/3/99, we have had  - get this -
72 digests, each containing around 20 messages. That's approximately 1440
messages, for the mathematically challenged.

And I wonder why I'm behind?!?  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:04:12 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: T4 Design Post: REUBEN TUCKER Platoon Transport

Here's a description of the REUBEN TUCKER-class platoon transport,
recently posted to my Web site:

REUBEN TUCKER-class Imperial Platoon Transport

Tons: 800 std (SL Medium Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 56.9 m x 16.4 m x 16.4 m
Volume: 11200 m3
Cargo: 29.7 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 5 t) 
Mass (L/C): 8667 t / 7931 t 
Maintenance Points: 268
Passengers High/Med: 0/0 
Crew: 16 / 22 
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 813.3 MCr 
Tech Level: 13
Size: 8 

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3 xFibComp (CM: 0.3 CP:
3.33). Terrain following sensors (TF:510, NOE:170). Bridge.
Communications: 3 x Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 3 x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (13.5 [16 mkm], 0.01 MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5 mkm] LP, 1.25
MW). 2 xLIDAR (14.5 [500 kkm], 0.6 MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (11, .31MW). 
1xPas. Jammer (14, .13 MW).
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR: -1 (-1 at 819 MW, -1.5 at 90 MW), Act:0, Neu:-1,
Grav:1

Performance 
4 Jump (80 std/pc fuel) 
3.5 / 3.8 Maneuver (Thruster: 748 MW)
No Contra-grav
4157 kph/4333 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
3118 kph/3250 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
2 Power (Fusion: 903 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery
326.5 Fuel (Scoop:5 /Purif:39 hrs) 
48/2/0/13 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) 
400 Life Sup. (Type:Extended,Good Food/Storage) 
3 G-Comp 
2 Sandcasters (AV: 50 / Cans: 35)
20 [58] Armor, 18 Structure 

Weapons (300,000km range bands) 
1 x 149-Mj Laser Turret (+4) 1/2-2-2-2 [4,400/31-31-31-31] 200 rof (PD
rof: 800)
1x Missile Turret Can 20/5 (Mag:16 /MFD:500,000km) 
     w/36 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU 

Features
8 x Airlock 
0x Decontamination Airlock 
1 x  Sickbay (8std ea.) 
1x Ship's locker (.4 std ea.) 
1 x Armory (1.79 std ea.) 
1 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 50 each) 
2 x Cap Launcher (15 rdy cap ea)



Small Craft
1 x Docking Ring (50std) 




Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: None
Communications: None 
Sensors: None
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: None 


Crew Details 3 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronic. 8 x Engineering. 1 x
Maintenance. 2 x Gunnery. 1 x Screen. 2 x Flight.
0 x Ship Troops. 3 x Command. 1 x Medical.  28 x Jump Troops


DESIGNER'S NOTES:

The REUBEN TUCKER class platoon transport is designed to fill the role
of a long-range (Jump-4) transport, capable of inserting a jump troop
platoon behind enemy lines, with the ability to retrieve the platoon
upon mission completion.  While the BROADSWORD-class Mercenary Cruiser
(of equal size) can move more personnel, and is more heavily armed, the
REUBEN TUCKER class transport has several advantages over the
BROADSWORD-class:  longer range (J4 versus J3); better normal-space
performance (3.5G versus 2G); the ability to insert troops by meteoric
assault; and a larger cargo hold (29.7 dtons versus 23.6 dtons, although
this advantage is largely countered by the need to hold at least one
additional set of jump capsules).  In addition, by resisting the
temptation of replacing crewmembers with machines, and reinforcing the
ship's structure to a standard of 4G, the REUBEN TUCKER class can
withstand more damage than a BROADSWORD-class Mercenary Cruiser.

Since a detached platoon may spend several jumps in transit before
reaching the objective, the REUBEN TUCKER-class transport provides
sufficient living space to avoid overcrowding.  Every crewmember, and
every jump trooper, has an individual small stateroom.  The skipper and
the platoon leader, as the respective commanding officers, ach have a
large stateroom.  The REUBEN TUCKER-class carries rations sufficient for
8 weeks of operations, without resorting to emergency rations.

By restricting the technology of the REUBEN TUCKER class to TL-13,
AuricTech Shipyards has combined operational flexibility with maximum
maintainability under austere conditions.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:09:00 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Group Apology

Greetings fellow Travellers:

Please accept my apology for my non-Traveller rant about the Cliff/Mark
Flame Fest.

   My main hash tonight is about relevancy and this ML or any other.

   Over the last three weeks just about every mailing list and use group
I've subscribed to has disintergrated over either Impeachment, Abortion,
the 2nd Amendment, Party affiliation, conscription, Vietnam, "who was
right the CSA or the USA?"..ad infinitum,  or combinations of these
divisive issues. Considering I'm involved in such things as advanced
spaceflight propulsion, space policy, animae, defense policy, Civil War
history, sf roleplaying games (traveller, 2300ad, renleg, full thrust,
starfire), and too many other subjects to get into here, I run into a
huge variation of opinion and just about everyone on these lists is over
educated (myself included) and well-spoken articulated human beings.
However, some of these people are more strident than others. It is a sad
day when a Civil War discussion group breaks down because of a subject
that might be relevant in the abstract but not in the concrete, i.e
comparing slavery to 20th century abortion politics. The Revolutionary
War list I was on fell apart because of someone recurring 'tag line'
that thoroughly manifested this person's  1st Amendment rights, but
cheesed off a majority of the list members. We didn't agree to disagree,
they're probably clawing each other's proverbial eyes out to this very
minute. The internet has yet to unite us into one "brotherhood of man".

And so the moral of this story:

We agree to disagree
If we're pissed off by someone elses diatribe, IGNORE it even if it is
personal.
The person who attacks your beliefs in a vulgar way will look like a
fool and will suffer the 'virtual' silence they deserve.

The TML is still elastic and I was amazed how many people pulled it back
to what it's about: A GAME   (But a jolly damn good one, hey!)

This is my last rant and testament,

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:55:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

My Dear Samuel,

	My humblest apologies for offending you.  A gentleman admits his error and
thus do I.   The seeming "Solomani" and Zhodani agreement was too great an
irony for me to resist.   My apologies again sir.

				Your obedient servant

				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:57:04 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

In a message dated 2/28/99 8:40:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 (PS: Dave; I'm not starting a flame war, and have nothing personal against
 you, but am just trying to stay in character)
  >>
	Flame war thoughts never crossed my mind, old boy.  I'm not Clif after all. 

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:03:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Group Apology

>The person who attacks your beliefs in a vulgar way will look like a
>fool and will suffer the 'virtual' silence they deserve.
>
Use of vulgarity does not make a person's arguments irrational.  It can be
said, however, that the person lacks manners.

>MUSASHI


...ought to be quoting Go Rin No Sho as applies to Traveller if he wants to
claim that name.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 23:33:38 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)

On 03/01/99 at 04:28 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>>For PBEMs there is no alternative, right? How do players roll in a 
>>>PB-E-M??? 

>In a PBEM I'm currently in, the mailing-list software supplies 5
>"super-percentile" rolls in a header-line on every message when it
>forwards it to the list. The rolls are in the range 00.00 to 99.99.
>It works ok for us. We sometimes post with "branches" based on "if I
>made the first roll, I do, this. If I fail, I do *that*..."

Which mailing-list software does this, Leonard? It sounds like something worth investigating.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 23:39:27 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 03/01/99 at 09:38 AM,  Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> said:

>For anyone who's interested in looking at a well-detailed hominid
>conspecies, you might check out this URL:
>http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/624/ethno.html

>The Nowans are descendants of Homo erectus in the contemporary world,
>living on a large North Pacific island.  There's a _lot_ of detail
>here that could lend itself well to spurring on Traveller "minor
>human 'race'" development.

Interesting site, but I didn't find any pictoral representations...I
wanted pictures, lots and lots of pictures!  Yeah, Homo Erectus
pin-ups.  Ooooo, that sounds dirty!  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:44:30 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

Clayton wrote:

>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>
>>
>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than

>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>
>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
>that.

Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in Florida.
Florida is the prefered site now.

Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:45:50 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

Easter Island was an emergency site for a long time.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports


>Clayton wrote:
>
>>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
>
>>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>>
>>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
>>that.
>
>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>Florida.
>Florida is the prefered site now.
>
>Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
>Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other
>
>Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 23:55:25 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 03/01/99 at 01:10 PM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>LOL.  I think I'm going to use the wiggle room in the timeline to
>flesh out two Homo Something species I've wanted to do. (Please let
>me know if there are similar minor races out there that I'm not aware
>of).  In a nutshell, one is a sentient gibbon-type primate, though
>larger and with prehensile tail, and the other is a
>Neanderthal-Missing link type with a penchant for violence and great
>fear of large predator cats (a sort of genetic memory from being
>hunted on the plains of Africa.).

Share, please!  My AKUS group may be heading into the great unknown
one of these days and having them run into some humans-not quite
humans is something I've been thinking about.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 00:14:41 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On 03/01/99 at 04:25 PM,  Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> said:

>The idea of 'lower species' is archaic (in the sense that
>	biologists no longer think of 'higher' vs 'lower' species,
>	all species in existance today are thought to have evolved
>	from one common ancestor (or a very few), therefore they 
>	have all been evolving for an equal amount of time and 
>	none are 'higher' than others). No offense intended to Eris,
>	many (most?) people tend to think of insects (for example) 
>	as 'lower' than humans. Just another example of our 
>	humanocentric view of the universe.

None taken, Ian. As a human, I'll admit to having a homocentric view
of the universe.  ;-> I meant lower in the sense of non-human, and
you went on to answer my question.

So, our humanti cousins are probably interfertile with we Solomani,
but may have a wide variety of characteristics not found among us.
Interesting.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #236
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 237



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Evolution
Villani/Zho Offspring
Re: Pyramid
Re: Evolution
Re:  smallpox
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
World Hooks 4
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
deckplans appology
Re: Vargr Corsair Image
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236
Re: Brain-children Having Children
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
RE: Evolution
Re: Brain-children Having Children

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 00:17:01 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On 03/01/99 at 10:34 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:


>	Joseph "Chepe" Lockett posted a long article on the 
>Suerrat two years ago. I still have it, but it goes without saying 
>that Joseph should be the one to re-circulate it.

>	One of the JTAS published by IG had a two-pages article by John 
>Snead (IIRC) on the Suerrat, sadly not totally compatible with 
>Joseph's work.

I, somehow, got the impression that the Suerrat were...well rat like, in some way?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 99 00:24:42 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Villani/Zho Offspring

On 03/01/99 at 11:15 PM,  "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:

>> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half Psi,
>> or what?

>The child looks at you and says:
>"I knew you were going to fill in that tax income report." ;-> 

Child handing form to parental unit, "Parent, I foresaw that you
were going to need a copy of a Form 307, stroke 4 A, sub-section B
in order to sussessfully complete our monthly space allocation
requisition."  ;-p

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:31:59 +0000
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

> Date:          Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:07:04 -0500
> From:          steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> 
> $15 US does not equal $15 Canada.
> But I'll wager, at the time of the transaction that
> $16.41 CA = $15 US

I can vaguely remember when the exchange rate was that high.  I 
don't think my age had rolled over into double-digits yet.

ObTrav, I think that was back around the time Traveller was first 
published. :)



- --
Edward Swatschek
edjs@bitslayer.net - edjs@mindlink.net - ICQ 2684960
http://home.paralynx.com/edjs/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:50:11 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Chris Seamans wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Although it's a touchy subject, what do race relations look like in the
Traveller universe?

Racism is very much a part of the OTU.  The whole Major/Minor Race
classification system, especially since this includes minor human races,
not just BEMs, is institutional racism.  You can't use the 'oh, they like
staying on their homeworld, something about the air' excuse with a MHR.

I gathered that the various human races are physiologically similar, as
unlikely as that is having followed totally separate lines of evolution.
Only slightly unusual characteristics from the Solomani standard, like all
zhodani are tall and swarthy, answerin have white eyes (IIRC from someones
webpage), all Geonee look like garden gnomes, only these make a MHR stand
out.

How do the powers that be in the Imperium keep a MHR minor?  They are
restricted for the most part to their homeworlds, or at best a 'cultural
region'.  Occasionally you see them farther from home, but it would be
unusual.  You don't see huge numbers of worlds colonized by vegans,
virushi, or syleans.

Granted, if interfertile, syleans and other MHRs in the Imperium (and
probably the Consulate) might have been absorbed into the overall major
race population.  But for whatever reason, like Geonee culture, significant
identifiable populations still exist.

I see the Imperial, at best, following about the same policy of 'benign
neglect' after the American Civil War.  No official overtly official policy
of discrimination, but if it happens, oh well, what do you do?

Megacorps will not hire a Geonee.  If they do, they only make low level
management (no pun intended - not!).  Virushi get into the best medical
schools, but they are almost never in the hospital administration.  Suerrat
can start their own corporation, but they can never seem to get that loan
from Hortalez et Cie for the larger ships.  Same for large scale
colonization efforts, a race, even a MHR, might get plenty of support from
the local nobility, but when it comes down to it, the funds don't
materialize, the clearances don't come through, the materials are
misrouted...  If anyone complains too loudly, brand them psionic/Ine
Givar/loudmouth and throw them in jail.

A dim view of the Imperium, but its got the plot hooks.


Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:51:00 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  smallpox

Here is an answer to the Vilani digestive bugs/Plague problem.

300,000 years is a long time.  Even if you start with a small initial
population (and correspondingly fewer diseases) on Vland, disease still has
a long long time to develop into complex forms.  Forms complex enough that
Vilani bugs, few and far between by Terran standards, should have been just
as deadly as the Earth bugs.  Terrans would have no resistance to something
that evolved on Vland.  In fact, there should be very deadly Vlandish
diseases, since they couldn't feed on anything else but humans.  The
bacteria/virus/whatever would be specifically evolved to take advantage of
a human metabolism.

IW period Vilani should have had as many diseases as Terrans, but instead
fell like Martians on a summer afternoon while the Terrans marched to
victory.  Why didn't the terrans fall too?

Granddaddy didn't want his pets getting sick so he tinkered with the
intestinal flora/fauna so they wouldn't mutate.  Sliced off their introns,
boosted the RNA efficency or inserted an extra helix .  No divergent
intestinal flora, no intestinal disease.  No pesky messes for Grandpa clean
up, no having to go all the way back to Terra to get more humans.

(best of all, minimal 'Ancients did it' explanation)

Meanwhile back on the Earth, Terran hominids and their bugs mutated quite a
bit.  When they came into contact with the Vilani,  blamo!  Instant
flamewar, err, Plague of Duskir.

Or go with the Confederation Bioweapons.  There is a reason why the Earth's
military was placed under UN command in 2022 (IIRC from the M:21 thread).
Everyone had weapons that could take out all human life without trying.
When the UN ran into the Vilani they dusted off the old Saddam Specials and
the rest was going to be history.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:33:51 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

>ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
>that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play
our
>share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....

Here's what me and a friend did on our recruit course.

We dressed up like the Orderly Officer and the Duty  NCO, and marched
into the female barracks at 1pm, and yelled "SNAP INSPECTION" and with
appropriate swearing and yelling got them all standing to attention.
At this point the lights were still off, so they couldn't see us. We
then marched to the end of the dormitory, took a single flash
photograph,  said "Thank you, ladies" and leapt out the end window
before they could get us. A copy of the photograph was then presented
to each of the "participants" upon graduation.

Another favourite trick was the shaving cream attack, the old standby
of short-sheeting, and placing
cornflakes or similar cereals into people's beds, shoes, underwear,
hats, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:10:14 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 4

More world hooks:

25. Consumer protection laws include a possible death penalty for
the maker of a product which kills a user. (Examples: Restaurant
food poisoning, failed buildings, unsafe drugs, poisonous
chemical spills). Equipment manufacturers are required to notify
purchasers of all known hazards in using the equipment and bear a
share of the risk of their occurrence, but remain fully liable
for unknown hazards or defects in manufacture.

26. Religion is a form of nature worship, and natural events are
described as actions of intelligent, powerful, nonphysical
entities with motives only partially incomprehensible to humans.
Scientific accounts are accepted as descriptive only, and are
usually subject to reinterpretation in mythic terms (e.g. the god
of volcanoes inhabits the underworld and strives to break free).
[Has this already been suggested? I don't have 101 religions]

27. Marriage is formalized with a business-like contract. The
bride is provided with a dowry by her parents, but they may
require a bride-price from the groom or his parents. The wife is
considered the property owner and in case of divorce, retains
title to at least as much as her dowry. The husband, however, is
considered the property manager.

28. The world is nearly uninhabitable except for one particular
region: a mountain range, crater, river, canyon, or some such.
Although it makes human life possible in its vicinity, frequent
natural disasters are associated with it. (as a variant, a few
such isolated regions: see also #14)

29. The world is unified by a common geographic feature, has
abundant resources so that it is self-sufficient, and is distant
from its neighbors (At least jump-2 away from nearest). Its
outlook is self-centered and aloof.

30. Cyclical orderliness has a strong influence on religion,
philosophy, and other elements of culture. The people turn
fatalistic in times of success and and optimistic in times of
trouble. This belief seems natural because the various natural
cycles on the world are unusually regular.

  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:33:34 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Evyn MacDude wrote:
>
> > Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating and keeps
> > slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.
>
> I hope, fellow listero, that you're not implying -- even
> ever-so-obliquely -- that I'm a bipolar fanged goth.  That would force me
> to to post details about my girly-girl-powered particle accelerator
> handgun...

Who me, Why I never...

Ok, post it. Does come with a Pelvis Mount?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:41:31 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Moody, Danny M. wrote:

> On Monday, 01 March 1999 00:56, Evyn MacDude
> > Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >
> > > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
> > >
> > > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to
> > > be
> > > allowed freedom.
> >
> > Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating
>
> Eeeewwwww  ...   yet ... strangely attractive...
>
> > and keeps
> > slipping away. Also normal small arms seem to have no effect.
>
> Obviously, some FS techno-marvel keeps Kenji safe...
>
> > We respectfully request full military intervention.
>
> God, yes -- Please! We need Ecclesiastical Support!  Now!

After the strike report to the nearest Connfessional.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:29:46 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         After a particularly long and ivolved night of gaming, my players
> who are from across Canada, all camped out in my living room.  We're all
> Naval Reserve.
>         0630 my darling wife demonstrated her prowess with a Bos'n's
> Pipe....  Wakey-wakey, followed by a still...  the confusion was...  humorous...

She knows some sadistic BM2? Reveille isn't too hard master, chow was
much harder to master.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:31:56 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

<<SNIP>>
>To be honest, so would I. I guess some pongo got a lucky shot off.
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt
<<UNSNIP>>

Lucky for whom?

Range was >5.4km, round was APFSDS, target was an Iraqi tank.  As to luck,
the British armed forces have done as well (if not better ;) ) as their
Colonial counterparts, but without the benefit of such expensive toys all
through (modern, admittedly) history.

On the subject of the M60 and M1, a story I heard had an M1 stuck in a
mudhole with a bunch of angry natives on the warpath; two M88 Recovery
vehicles had completely failed to pull the M1 free so it was decided to blow
it up rather than let the locals get their mucky paws on it.
TWO M1 shots failed to penetrate the hull armor, so a third climbed up the
hill and shot into the top of the turret.  *Unfortunately* the ammo only
blew the blowout panels off.
By then two more M88s had arrived and the four pulling together freed the
tank.  The turret was replaced and shipped home for examination, the tank
was repaired and sent back into action.

+ObTrav; how do you free a stuck G-tank?  (How do you **STICK** a G-tank in
the first place??)  Possibly a higher-tech, undercover, force manages to get
a tank bogged on a world they're not supposed to be on; how do you get it
out without letting the locals see your nice little spaceship?

Nasty tricks for new arrivals?  Send 'em out for Long Weights, Left-handed
Screwdrivers, or green and brown camo paint; let 'em fix test kit costing
loadsamoney then stand behind 'em - with two metal trays - when they power
it up after fixing it - the list just goes on and on...

Jeff R.
(Wherever the British Army goes, The PONG-GOES)

ps cats win so far at 0400.  But at least *they* let me go back to sleep for
a while!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:20:42 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: deckplans appology

An appology to anyone who wasted bandwidth downloading the deckplans
that I announced a few days ago.

Unfortunately, the ftp utility transferred the file as ascii instead of
binary.

I should have noticed, but didn't.

I should have checked, but didn't.

Sorry.

...

The upload has now been done properly and as I am back at work,
I have checked the result.

Many thanks to those who warned me of the problem.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:21:19 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr Corsair Image

Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com> asks,

>Is the image on page 96 of GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1 supposed to be the
>Corsair?

I drew both the illustration and the deckplans, and, uh.... I guess I just
rather hoped nobody would notice that they didn't exactly match..

The plans, as I recall (I don't have my proofs at hand at the moment and
LOREN STILL HASN'T SENT ME MY CONTRIBUTOR'S COPIES OF THE BOOK [*ahem,
sorry]) show the cargo bay opening out the side of the ship. But the
illustration shows a *rear*-loading cargo bay (basically because I thought
it *looked* cool). How this discrepancy came about I can't clearly recall
now; probably I did the illustration first, then worked up the plans, but
at some point discovered that I couldn't make the various components fit
the way I wanted them to.

However, in my defence I will point out that there is no single design for
the Corsair -- "Corsair" is just a synonym for "Pirate Ship", after all,
and they come in lots of flavours. Unless there really *are* factories in
Vargr Space pouring out ships designed and marketed specifically for the
purpose of piracy (*are* there??), my design is probably a standard Vargr
tramp freighter that has been heavily modified for a given band of pirates.
It's a "typical Vargr Corsair" -- YVCMV (Your Vargr Corsair May Vary :).

>If so, how is the cutter supposted to EXIT the ship?  Obviously
>the open bay displayed in the image doesn't match the plans.

>Seth Wrote:
>> I interpret that the cutter drops out the belly of the ship
>> (the cutter is sitting on top of the exit doors...

The cutter, as Seth suggestd, does indeed drop out the belly of the ship. I
drew the outline of the cutter bay doors in there as a dotted line -- which
*should* be visible in the published deckplans...

>That would work if the cargo deck didn't extend over
>the drives of the cutter by a few hexes.  It's hard to get
>an exact measure of the overlap, as the Elevator and
>hatch on Deck 2 do not line up with the elevator and
>hatch on the Cargo... another design issue.   This
>would be REALLY apparent if this deckplans used a
>grid instead of the GURPs hex underlay.

Okay, now you're getting on my nerves ;)

Yes, the cutter bay doors can't really conform to the dotted line I drew,
because the cargo deck extends past the first couple of yards of the cutter
bay. So the Cutter would have to tilt its nose down and then slide out of
the bay at an angle. Call it one of those weird features that results when
you modify and customize and add extra engines and so on.

Given the speed at which I threw these plans together, mostly between the
hours of midnight and 4am, I'd be amazed if there weren't other little
glitches hiding in there :)

Best,

Glenn

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:00:19 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

> From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
> > Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:
> > "Could somebody who's knowledge of French and/or Spanish please 
> > tell me how to translate "Confederation Agricultural Export 
> > Control Authority". Its for my ongoing work on the IW period"
> > 
> I was just playing with Altavista's 'Babelfish'
> (babelfish.altavista.com) and it came up with these:

> Spanish: Autoridad Agrcola Del Control De la Exportacin De la 
>          Confederacin 
> (accents in 'agrIcola', 'exportaciOn', and 'confereraciOn')
> 
> I don't speak either of those languages, so those could be terrible, but 

	Hey, I told you, I am an Spaniard!. Don't use that, it's terrible.

	"Autoridad Confederal para el Control de Exportaciones Agricolas"

	Is a literal translation (accent in agrIcola).

	I would prefer soemthing not so literal: "Direccion General de 
Exportaciones Agricolas de la Confederacion" sounds more plausible.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:18:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

Clif sent on Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:30:36 -0500

> I know I'm citing a movie, again, but Independence Day 4 was a masterful
> bit of propaganda giving us all (even if only for an hour or two) a
> great big warm, race-spanning, fuzzy.  

Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence
Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by
the fact it was pretending it was humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a
flame, just what it was like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.

Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 06:51:03 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236

>Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 23:44:30 -0600
>From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
>Clayton wrote:
>>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
>>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
>>that.
>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>Florida.
>Florida is the prefered site now.
>Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
>Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other
>Charles
	I think there are several more, from what I have heard they get into worse
choices as you go down.  When they were starting to fly the shuttle
McConnel AFB in Wichita, Kansas was discussed as one of the alternate
landing sites.  Supposedly they would open the gates into Raytheon and
combine the runway.
									Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:29:10 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

Clif wrote:
> 
> >Therefore, *every* character
> >is (technically) psionic unless their Psi rating is zero.
> >They're simply not trained to use it.
> >
> 
> So psionic capacity is not genetic?  Does psionic ability not come from full
> or higher usage of the total mind?
> 
> Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...
> 
> Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a butt-ugly
> nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the child's
> APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's scores?  Some
> genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in the husband
> for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same with
> eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?
> 
> How realistic would this be, or should I actually sit down with my biology
> book and figure it out "the old-fashioned way"?
 
Hmm..my take on genetics was that if a parent's attribute is dominant,
the
child gets the entire attribute, rather than the attribute being
"diluted"
by the other parent's recessive attribute. In regards to character
attributes, I would rule then that the parental attributes represent a
minimum/maximum range. Of course, with proper training or through the
results of disastrous events, these min/max values may be exceeded.

Please keep in mind, though, that when it comes to the details of
RealLife(tm) genetics, I'm totally clueless.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:55:53 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
> > From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > > BTW, does anyone have any comments on my PBEM Die Rolling Techniques
> > > post?
> > I read that, then almost begged Carlos not to adopt it.
> 
> Well, I am considering it, but of course I would ask first....
> 
> > I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.
> 
> <fake anger>
> Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something,
> Major B. Louis?
> </fake anger>
> 
> > It seems reasonable if you really want to have player influence.
> 
> Or no doubts on the player side about the fact that a fumble occurs
> with 1/36 probability. And, by Murphy's Law, at the most
> inappropriate moments.

Your telling me ? ;-)

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:02:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

At 05:02 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte said...
>
>>Now wait a minute.  If there are the long toothed blood drinking type
>>vampires in GT then my next GT character will be a TNS reporter with
>>rediculious luck and weirdness magnet named Carl Kolshack!  (Grin)
>
>
>Hehehe... Will he still wear a straw hat? ;^)
>
>

Of course!  Social stigma, Bad taste in clothes.

And patron, TNS, rarely, boss is not all that happy with him.

Contacts of course, he always found someone with the 'how' to kill the monster.

Enemies, lots, previous interviewees/inocent bystanders that do not want to
get into another of his 'wild goose chaces' including said boss.

Odious person habit, Narrates his own life!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:06:02 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Evolution

Derek Stanley writes:
"Given the harsh nature of the Vilani homeworld in the years 
following the Ancients War, I'm surprised that a greater degree 
of speciation didn't occure there.  The selective pressures 
were definitely at a premium but apparently they weren't 
sufficient to result in any significant changes."

	What was the Vilani TL during this period? (I am not
	very familiar with canon Imperial history) Humans with 
	technology probably survive mainly through technological
	adaptations, rather than biological ones. This is not 
	to say that evolution halts, but it may not proceed as
	rapidly as environmental conditions might suggest.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:58:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

At 08:23 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a butt-ugly
>nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the child's
>APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's scores?  Some
>genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in the husband
>for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same with
>eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?

It all depends on the dominant/recessive traits.  For example, I have a
brother and a sister.  all of us express different body characterisitcs
gained from our parents.  My father never went grey until about six months
before his death at 69, but Craig has been going a distinguish silver for
some time now.  I have my father's hair (got it in the will), but many of
my mother's features.  It's a crap shoot.  Concievably, two ugly folks
could combine traits to produce Cindy Crawford.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #237
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 238



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ewwww.....
Re: Evolution
Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Evolution
Re: World Hooks 4
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236
Re: Racial Cooperation
alternate Shuttle landing sites
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)
Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Riot control and the Abyss (was Re: Clif and other such things)
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Re: Evolution
Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:12:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ewwww.....

At 03:58 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn out?  At half Psi,
>or what?

Psionics aren't handed down through family lines.

Also, the vast majority of zhodani are psionicly dead.  Only the nobility
and atendants are trained.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:07:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

At 04:14 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from fondling
>the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals, you're GONNA
>have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species that
>resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable dolls (since
>they can't have children?).

Wasn't that Orion slave girl a hallucination?

Anyway, sexual attraction is a combination of a great many factors, 90% of
whuich are mental.  Consider what Americans define as "sexy".. thin, large
breasted women.  The _Baywatch_ paradigm.  Go back sixty years, and you'll
find ads for products designed to fatten women up!

People who deviate from the norm (not intended as a slur) come in two sets.
 Those who seem born that way (most homosexual or bisexual folks) and those
who have some sort of psychotic break that imprints desires outside the norm.

Your amourous farmhand probably has no other outlet, and is simply using
whatever outlet he can find.

The problem with interspecies copulings, even among the varieties of
humanity, is that sexual response is an involuntary reaction.  (Ask any
thirteen year old.)  There has to be a stimulating set of clues to
function.  Luckily for us, the human mind is capable of defining almost
anything as being sexual.  The question is: Are the aliens the same way?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:18:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

At 05:19 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>UPDATE 55464-er-444

>I must agree with our brethren. Full military intervention is, not only
>recommended, but REQUIRED! The keyboards of the world demand
>retribution!
>
>Faceless Minion #34556

Release for Military Intervention.

Pursuant to request by numerous faceless minions, and after consulting with
Primus <FNORD>, a writ has been granted to bring the full weight of the
Templars against the entity known as "Kenji"

We suggest you use Book 4 Light Assault Guns, as they appear to have
reality-warping ammo that defies reproduction.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:54:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 06:43 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
>that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play our
>share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....

Along the lines of the infamous "can of track tension"? gags?

Blank adaptor for a laser rifle
Assigning newbie to sensor watch in jump (see if he actually shows up)
Send new guy to get the combat armor air fresheners
In the motor pool, send new guy to requistion the wrench to tighten the
grav tank trnasmission.

I got sent to find the blank adapter for the M-203.  Which is a grenade
launcher.  D'oh!
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:48:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 09:00 PM 3/1/99 -0000, you wrote:

>0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
>here...

I was on leave.  On duty, first call was between 0430-0500.

Oddly enough, I now get up at 0250..  *whimper*
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 06:46:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

At 11:18 AM 3/2/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
>steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence
>Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by
>the fact it was pretending it was humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a
>flame, just what it was like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.

Trust me, a great number of us jingoistic Yanks were slack jawed in
disbelief at the end of ID4.  Who knew that every airforce in the world
flew F/A-18s?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:03:22 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Evolution

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" wrote:
> >	Joseph "Chepe" Lockett posted a long article on the 
> >Suerrat two years ago. I still have it, but it goes without saying 
> >that Joseph should be the one to re-circulate it.

Eirs Reddoch wrote: 
> I, somehow, got the impression that the Suerrat were...well rat like, in some way?

No Soo-rat like, Suerrat! ;-)
There is a picture in Vilani & Vargr showing a Geonee, a Suerrat, and 
a Cassildan compared to a Solomani. The Geonee are detailed on my 
page, Joseph and John Snead did something on the Suerrat... anybody 
ever did anything on the Cassildans? I don't even know if their 
homeworld has been established.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:09:20 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: World Hooks 4

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
> Subject: World Hooks 4

> 25. Consumer protection laws include a possible death penalty for
> the maker of a product which kills a user. (Examples: Restaurant
> food poisoning, failed buildings, unsafe drugs, poisonous
> chemical spills). Equipment manufacturers are required to notify

One of my PBEM players was forced to drive an Air/Van which 
was spiraling down with him onboard. He managed to land, but 
killed some bystanders. He didn't have a driving license. Then he 
found out that, tehcnically, killing somebody in an accident when you 
drive without license may be considered murder under the local law. 
He is still wondering if the law come after him any day, and half the 
players are trying to obtain licenses for every little aptitude they 
have....

...some of them are not trying. The poor guys. ;->


Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:14:21 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236

> I think there are several more, from what I have heard they get into worse
>choices as you go down.  When they were starting to fly the shuttle
>McConnel AFB in Wichita, Kansas was discussed as one of the alternate
>landing sites.  Supposedly they would open the gates into Raytheon and
>combine the runway.
> Andy
>
I think you can add the old air bace (CFB Namaio) in Edmonton AB, Canada.
Built by the US army during WW2 (for transporting food and aid to USSR), it
has something like the 3rd or 4th longest runways in the world.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:15:12 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

> Clif sent on Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:30:36 -0500
> > I know I'm citing a movie, again, but Independence Day 4 was a masterful

> From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
> Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
> steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence
> Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by
> the fact it was pretending it was humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a
> flame, just what it was like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.

Are you implying that ID4 pretended to be a serious movie???!!! 
Really? Honest?
And here I am, who always thought that it was some absurd-humor 
comedy, Monty Python's style...
But, hey, tell me, why was then everybody laughing at the cinemas in 
Spain? Specially at the presidential speech?
;-)
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:09:12 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: alternate Shuttle landing sites

Stewart AFB in Newburgh, NY is about #12 on the list.  It has a nice long
runway for C-5s.

On the downside, it's right between Poughkeepsie & New Jersery. :-)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:05:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I was just suggesting the possibility that the various minor human
>> > "races" are probably about as close to each other as Terran humans
>> > are to bonos or chimps.  Well, OK, a little closer.  ;->
>
>> Sorry, but the chimp/human/gorilla split was 3-4 *million* years ago.
>> Yet even at that distance there is serious speculation about possible
>> limited crossbreeding being possible.
>
> That's why I put the smiley in, Leonard. ;->  The speculation about
> crossbreeding of humans and chimps is just that..speculation, and to
> be honest, I'd just as soon it remains simple speculation.

I've been informed in mail that a German group produced apparently
viable human/gorilla hybrids in vitro, but flushed the results before
they got beyond the "small clump of cells" stage because they were just
as uncomfortable as we are. 

To give you an idea *how* close we are, there's only a one amino acid
difference between gorilla and human hemoglobin. And I think I've read
that they've found a few people with "gorilla" hemoglobin.
  
>> The Ancients were only 300-400 thousand years ago. That's 1/10th the
>> time. A lot more recent. And the odds are *much* stronger that we'd
>> still be interfertile.
>
> Maybe, maybe not, I don't know, and that's why I presented my comments
> as questions. 

> Do we have any applicable data from lower species successfully
> interbreeding after being separated for comparable periods of time?

I'm not sure. 
  
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:09:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> On 03/01/99 at 01:10 PM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>
>>LOL.  I think I'm going to use the wiggle room in the timeline to
>>flesh out two Homo Something species I've wanted to do. (Please let
>>me know if there are similar minor races out there that I'm not aware
>>of).  In a nutshell, one is a sentient gibbon-type primate, though
>>larger and with prehensile tail, and the other is a
>>Neanderthal-Missing link type with a penchant for violence and great
>>fear of large predator cats (a sort of genetic memory from being
>>hunted on the plains of Africa.).
>
> Share, please!  My AKUS group may be heading into the great unknown
> one of these days and having them run into some humans-not quite
> humans is something I've been thinking about.

There's a book by an SF author (I can't recal the title or author at
the moment) that has a anthropologist (or maybe paleontologist) visting
the family home in the South (her family wound up owning the old
plantation they'd been slaves on).

She finds an old journal and as near as she can tell, one section in it
describes an attempt to introduce chimps or gorillas as labor. It gives
enough details about where the bodies were buried after they died that
she decides to try doing a dig. Partly to see just what did happen
(after all being able to show that the slave owners had tried to work
slaves alongside "animals" would help point out attitudes) and partly
to show her family just what it is that she does for a living.

She finally locates the coffins. And damn near has heart failure when
she recognizes the skulls as homo erectus (or maybe it was one of the
australopithicenes). Much furor ensues. 

And of course, they have to try finding out *where* in Africa these
creatures came from. 

I won't spoil the story by continuing. If someone recognizes the author
and title from my description, *please* post them. The book would be a
gold mine for any ref trying to have any of our "cousin" species show
up as the population of a world.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:19:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PBEM Die Rolling (Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems)

In mail you write:

> On 03/01/99 at 04:28 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>>>For PBEMs there is no alternative, right? How do players roll in a 
>>>>PB-E-M??? 
>
>>In a PBEM I'm currently in, the mailing-list software supplies 5
>>"super-percentile" rolls in a header-line on every message when it
>>forwards it to the list. The rolls are in the range 00.00 to 99.99.
>>It works ok for us. We sometimes post with "branches" based on "if I
>>made the first roll, I do, this. If I fail, I do *that*..."
>
> Which mailing-list software does this, Leonard? It sounds like something 
> worth investigating.

I'm not sure. Drop by alt.callahans and ask about the CAoL's "Pulp
Adventure" campaign. It's currently sorta inactive because the GM is
busy in the standard "superhero" game (the AAE posts).

The host system is ModusVarious.com. He may be running custom software.
For one thing, the list scans the newsgroup for any postings with the
right "prefix" in the subject and includes them in the list...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:24:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 -- spaceports

In mail you write:

>>And what's wrong with Hawaii?
>
> It's in the middle of nowhere -- there aren't any markets to support it,
> import or export, and it costs almost as much to ship there for
> transloading to orbit as it does to simply boost the stuff all the way from
> wherever you started.

Even so, it does have the advantage of being near the equator *and*
having almost *no* restrictions on flightpath. Just about *any* launch
direction goes over open ocean.

>>There should be a listing for Vandenberg. Also Mojave isn't as good a
>>site as the area north of White Sands. It's bigger, fewer ecological
>>concerns, and has major rail and pipeline routes nearby. The pipelines
>>provide oil and gas as fuel stocks. And less conflict with air traffic.
>
> One of the primary considerations for siting a commercial spaceport has to
> be approach and departure paths. Vandenberg is a terrible site for anything
> except missiles; it is restricted by safety concerns to almost polar
> orbital insertions. White Sands (IMTU) is still primarily an experimental,
> not commercial or operational, facility, although the HELL could
> conceivably be there instead of Colorado Springs.
>
> Mojave is far enough from LA that the natives won't complain (much), near
> enough to serve that huge market. Pipelines, rail and power are not
> problems, either -- one of the reasons I picked it. Airspace really isn't
> an issue that far out, either, although the main VOR airway from Las Vegas
> to LAX might have to be rerouted somewhat.
>
> Many of these sites were lifted from analysis of the commercial viability
> of SSTO spaceship operations done by Dr. Robert Zubrin, the late G. Harry
> Stine, and others.

It was Stine who was pointing out the virtues of the southwestern US
site. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:42:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

>>There was a British television series about this  topic called "Gor", IIRC.
>>Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
>>A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm and then
>>inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit
> exceedingly
>>hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and strong
>>man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it becomes a soap
>>opera.  I won't ruin it for you.
>
> I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )

Slight problem. The average gorilla measures 3 inches when erect. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:34:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

>>>In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
>>>(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
>>>idea from David Brin.)
>>
> Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from fondling
> the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals, you're GONNA
> have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species that
> resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable dolls (since
> they can't have children?).

It's possible. It's just not as likely as you might think. There really
*are* some sort of "signals" that lead to sexual arousal. And it is
quite possible to be *very* interested in someone and have the signals
be "wrong". I'm not going to go into details, I'll just note that
regardless of how flexible you are mentally about such things, it's
possible have your "body" decide that it ain't gonna happen.

So *in general* the "cues" have to be right. An animal has similar
plumbing. An Alien may be just *too* different for our "programming" to
work with. We are remarkably flexible, but there will always be limits.
Sometimes very frustrating ones.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:46:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

> steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>>> I have noticed that American TV doesn't seem to show "mixed race"
>>couples
>>> at all, but then as I watch very little American TV this could well be
>>> sampling error.
>>
>>Um, ever hear of the Jeffersons?  They broke the ground. Don't know
>>of any modern ones currently though, but you have romances on
>>Ally McBeal (don't watch it - its awful).
>
> Never heard of them. Like I said, I watch little American TV. Come to
> that, I watch little TV period. Hm. Battlefield Vietnam's on tonight,
> DaVinci's Inquest is Wednesday, Heat of the Sun is over... that's it.

Do you recall the (original) Star Trek episode "Plato's Stepchildren"?
That was the one with the planet full of telekinetics who lorded it
over the Enterprise crew until McCoy fiogured out how to give them TK
of their own. 

Anyway, it's famous for being the *first* American TV show to show an
inter-racial kiss. And that kiss was the aliens *forcing* Kirk and
Uhura to kiss. That was only 30 years ago. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:50:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Riot control and the Abyss (was Re: Clif and other such things)

In mail you write:

> Point, the second:
>
> Ian, I *love* the HePlar sound system. Do you think such a thing is
> possible with chemical rockets (for the cost-conscious consumer with
> short-term usage needs?)

Actually, I suggested it originally. It's based on *real* research.
They've got lab models that use high purity gases to make a jet of
flame (high purity plasma) and manipulate it electromagnetically to
create sound. 

The big hassles currently are the need for a high purity plasma.
Ordinary flames won't do. If they get that licked, we *will* see it at
concerts simply because the effect of a tower of flame "speaking" is
too good to pass up!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 04:48:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> On 02/28/99 at 11:15 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net> said:
>>
>> >Seems like I read somewhere that modern "skin" colors are
>> >environmental evolutions that have come into being in the last
>> >100,000 years or less. Before that we were all the same.
>> >SOOO.....
>>
>> Hum, I doubt there is much evidence either way.  Has anything other
>> than bone and stone tools been discovered from that long ago?  I
>> don't think so, but evolutionary change certainly has continued and
>> as humankind scattered across the globe I can see selection based on
>> envirnomental factors taking place.
>
> Well, I can't speak about other factors much, but melanin-production,
> and thus skin color, is fairly sensitive to environment over time.
> Although, differences in melanin levels certainly don't mean different
> races.
>
> As humans moved north, from Africa, the amount of sunlight available
> to assist in the production of certain vitamins is greatly reduced due to
>
> persistent weather conditions and temperature (colder weather
> requiring clothing and thus limiting exposure).
>
> I'm beginning to think I'm missing something here.  Hopefully
> someone with knowledge will jump in here soon.  Or I'm going to
> have to visit the library.

"Standard" take on it is something like this:

High melanin levels help protect against tropical sunlight. Therefore
there is selection pressure for high levels and against low levels.
Skin cancer and the like *really* select for high melanin levels.

In more northerly areas, the selection pressure *for* high levels goes
away. And due to descreased exposure to sunlight, there is a weaker
selection pressure towards lower melanin levels (to aid in producing
vitamin D). But it is a *weaker* pressure. That's why even in Arctic
areas, you'll get "yellow" and "red" coloration rather than "white". 

As I recall, *biologically* the "races" of Earth are rather different
than what you might think. There's a fairly rare type found mostly
among the bushmen in the African Kalahari. They have some *very*
disctinctive features. 

There's the general "Negroid" type. There's a "Mongoloid" type (has
nothing to do with Down's Syndrome). Both Asiatics *and* Native
Americans belong to this type. And there's a Caucasoid type. 

The defining characteristics have shifted *considerably* since we
started being able to compare blood-types and genetic markers. As I
recall, the "Bushman" type is one of the few relatively pure races. 
And about the only one where physical appearance is at all useful in
assigning "race".

Just for an example, anybody claiming to be 100% caucasian *and* having
type B or AB blood has got some suprises buried in the family tree...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:43:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

> Ian Ferguson wrote:
>
>>         According to Futuyma (Evolutionary Biology, 3rd edition,
>>         1998, P. 462): "The time required for full reproductive
>>         isolation to evolve is very variable, but on average, it
>>         is achieved (after)...about 1.5-3.5 million years.
>>         However, a considerable number of full species appear to
>>         have evolved in less than 1 million years." (Futuyma's
>>         million is 1,000,000) In general, speciation will
>>         procede most rapidly when selection is strong (resulting
>>         in rapid evolution).
>
> Thanks, Ian!  That means Terran-Vilani interfertility is very
> plausible. Canon is preserved!
>
>  It should allow for some interfertility with the Zhodani
> as well, shouldn't it?

I'd say it *favors* inter-fertility of all of humaniti. It'll be the
*special* cases that aren't interfertile.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:54:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Simple (or not) science question on EMP

In mail you write:

> A question has arisen on another list I am on, and I bring it here for you
> to enlighten me.
>
> Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) effects, as created by nuclear explosions and
> certain high-tech weapons, disrupt and damage electrical systems. Will this
> disruption, and or damage affect systems that are both on and off, or only
> those that are on?
>
> It is my understanding that an EMP effect works as a sort of giant
> static-electric "zap" to sensitive microcircuits. Is this this the case, or
> am I misled?

EMP creates a disruption in the local magnetic field. Usually the
planetary one, but if you are close to a big blast in space the
"embedded" field in the plasma as it washes over you could have similar
effects.

What the magnetic field does is induce a current in all unshielded
conductors. And it takes a *lot* of shielding, so it's best to consider
all conductors unshielded. 

The current (or is it voltage?) is proportional to the length of the
conductor. Thus your car key won't melt, but the extension cord on an
appliance could fry the electronics even though it isn't plugged into
the wall. 

Things like power lines (which run for miles) and wire fencing (ditto)
will be the biggest dangers. As in it may be possible for enough of a
charge to be benerated by a long stretch of fence to knock you on your ass.

Sremiconductors are vulnerable because the PN junctions that make them
work act a lot like tiny capacitors, and it only takes a little voltage
(say 50-100 volts) to "puncture the dielectric" (ie ruin the junction
by shorting it). With a strong EMP only a few *inches* of wire would be
enough to fry ICs.

Tubes survive ok because you just get a momentary arc and then they are
back to normal. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:19:04 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

> From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>

From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> > > I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend to roll.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> > <fake anger>
> > Pretend to roll? PRETEND to roll? Are you insinuating something,
> > Major B. Louis?
> > </fake anger>
 
> > > It seems reasonable if you really want to have player influence.
 
> > Or no doubts on the player side about the fact that a fumble occurs
> > with 1/36 probability. And, by Murphy's Law, at the most
> > inappropriate moments.

Ewan Quibell wrote: 
> Your telling me ? ;-)

C'mon, Ewan, it was just a critical failure of the experimental 
fusion plant you were working in... and it didn't explode, after 
all... What else could I have done with a fumble? ;->
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #238
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 239



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Vargr Corsair Image
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Evolution
Re: Brain-children Having Children
re: Evolution
Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Artist Needed
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
World Seeds
Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)
RE: World Seeds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:18:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In mail you write:

> Jeffrey Rowse wrote:
>> 
>> <<SNIP>>
>> >When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>> >alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>> >FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
>> <<UNSNIP>>
>> 
>> 0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
>> here...
>> 
> They make you get up at 0615 _on leave_?  My sympathies....  ;-)
>
> BTW, when I was going through Jump School at Ft. Benning, I wanted to
> try something similar.  My plan was to go to the junior Enlisted Club (I
> was a recently-promoted sergeant at the time), open the door, and yell,
> "Jumpers, HIT IT!!", just to watch the beer spill as trainees leapt to
> their feet, assumed a good, toght body postion, and counted: 
> "ONE-thousand, TWO-thousand, THREE-thousand, FOUR-thousand!" 
> Unfortunately, the EM club was closed for renovations during my three
> weeks at Benning.
>
> ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
> that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play our
> share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....

Well, the Navy will be sending newbies around to get a bucket of vacuum.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:16:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In mail you write:

> <<SNIP>>
>>When I got home on my first leave after a few months in the Army, my
>>alleged best friend walked into my room at 0700 and bellowed "ON YOUR
>>FEET!"  I was at attention before my eyes opened.
> <<UNSNIP>>
>
> 0700?  You Yanks have it easy!  It's *0615* (on a very good day) over
> here...

Re-read it. He was at *home* on *leave* when this was done. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:42:08 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:18:10 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
> Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation
>
> Clif sent on Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:30:36 -0500
>
> > I know I'm citing a movie, again, but Independence Day 4 was a masterful
> > bit of propaganda giving us all (even if only for an hour or two) a
> > great big warm, race-spanning, fuzzy.
>
> Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
> steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence
> Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by
> the fact it was pretending it was humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a
> flame, just what it was like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.
>
> Eamon Watters.

I have to agree with you Eamon.  Even we Canadian's laughed and guffawed at the US centric
nature of the movie.  Gimme a break if it weren't for 5 minutes in a two hour film you'd
swear the earth was flat and ended at the 49th parallel, the Rio Grande and at the
Atlantic and Pacific coast line.

My favorite scenes in the movie was the shot in the desert and the other "locations around
the world" shots.  It gave a brief sence of the global totality of this disaster.

It was unfortunate that the producers didn't see that as a boon to the movie,
unfortunately in Hollywood showing things outside the US is rarely viewed as a good thing
it's a matter of simple economics and market.

Honestly you have to ask yourself are the people in the US who make up 80% of Hollywoods
viewing audience going to want to watch a road film about a bunch of hicks from
Saskatchewan trying to find Vancouver or would the same film draw a larger audience if
they were hicks from Iowa trying to find Los Angeles?  Well the second one it going to
draw a bigger audience in the States because more people can relate to it.  Its really a
matter of economics, what's going to sell in your largest market?  Unfortunately Hollywood
is terribly terribly predictable in the trash they produce, perhaps they should honestly
sit down and watch movies from around the world.

What can we expect to see next from the corporate schmoe's in Hollywood?  A film about a
group of ex-Pittsburg steel mill workers who decide to strip so they can pay their bills.
They'll call it, "The Buck Naked"...

8^)

DS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:13:15 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 06:43 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
> >that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play our
> >share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....
> 
> Along the lines of the infamous "can of track tension"? gags?
> 
> Blank adaptor for a laser rifle
> Assigning newbie to sensor watch in jump (see if he actually shows up)
> Send new guy to get the combat armor air fresheners
> In the motor pool, send new guy to requistion the wrench to tighten the
> grav tank trnasmission.
> 
This one will be familiar to paratroopers, and can easily be adapted to
Traveller (substitute "space-sick" for "airsick"):

At Ft. Bragg, most of my unit's training jumps involved about forty
minutes of flying in terrain-following mode, before climbing to jump
altitude (800' AGL).  A C-130 flying that low gives some good
negative-Gs as it crests hills.  This, in turn, can cause airsickness in
those susceptible to such (luckily, I am not susceptible).  For this
reason, the Air Force always had plenty of airsick bags available.  So:

Take one airsick bag.
Fill it with the chicken a'la king MRE.
During the flight, pass the full airsick bag along, past the victim
(usually a new guy on his cherry blast), and to your accomplice.
Your accomplice looks in the airsick bag, grins, and begins eating the
chicken a'la king.

This usually produced the desired result.

> I got sent to find the blank adapter for the M-203.  Which is a grenade
> launcher.  D'oh!

I heard about some newbie who was sent down to the battalion commo shop
to get a "prick E-7."  (Poor bastid!)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:35:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]The Old Marquis makes a side comment

In a message dated 3/1/99 9:02:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< (PS: Dave; I'm not starting a flame war, and have nothing personal against
  you, but am just trying to stay in character)
   >>
 	Flame war thoughts never crossed my mind, old boy.  I'm not Clif after all. 
 
 			Dave Nelson
  >>

cool, and Solomani Sam accepts the apology....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:47:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

In a message dated 3/2/99 1:36:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< ObTrav; how do you free a stuck G-tank?  (How do you **STICK** a G-tank in
 the first place??)  Possibly a higher-tech, undercover, force manages to get
 a tank bogged on a world they're not supposed to be on; how do you get it
 out without letting the locals see your nice little spaceship? >>

A recovery sled powers the tanks' grav generators via a power umbilical (if
the mobility kill is because of a power plant failure). If the grav generators
are out; then the sled magnetically clamps grav generators to the dead tank
and powers them. The sled can also magnetically clamp itself to the dead tank,
and between the auxillary generators and the sled's generators; the tank
should raise. I guess if the tank is REALLY stuck (like buried %90 into a
building for example...); then that's what CE's are for... (to dig 'er out
first...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:57:23 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

Eamon Watters wrote:
> Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
> steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's
> 'Independence Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric
> jingoism, made worse by the fact it was pretending it was
> humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a flame, just what it was
> like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.

I also saw this film in a UK and the  audiance  cheered  ...  but
perhaps not at the right moments.  Somehow the idea  that  aliens
would come hundreds of lightyears just to destroy the USA  has  a
twisted sort of credibility.  :-^

On a more serious note: for the  Brits  on  the  list  check  out
"Independence Day UK", a joint  Fox/BBC Radio  play  released  on
audio cassette.  1 hour long  with  Nicky  Campbell  and  Patrick
Moore (among others).  ISBN 1-85849-631-4.  Image what ID4  would
have been like if it had been  multiple  films  made  around  the
world telling the same story from different perspectives.

ObTrav:
Do the inhabitants of Yori/Regina like  the  cultural  output  of
nearby Regina/Regina ... but only in small doses?  I can see many
worlds of the Imperium standing shoulder-to-shoulder against  the
Zhodani Threat, but irritating the hell out  of  each  other  the
rest of the time with culture clash.



Regards PLST

"The universe ... the ultimate violation of the law of
Conservation of Matter/Energy!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:59:32 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

At 09:31 01/03/1999 -0600, "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> wrote:
>> > 5.  What are some recommended minimum ratings for Armor, Jump
>> > Capability, and Manuever G's?
>> 
>> Jump 1-2 for merchants, 3-4 for naval task forces, 5 for naval commerce
>> raiders and 6 for couriers. Manoeuvre 1 for merchants (plus 1-2G contra
>> grav), 6 for Naval ships, 8 for fighters. Armour rating 20-60 for
>> merchants, 1000+ for warships (equivalent factors are 0-20 and 100).
>
>I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I 
>miss something completely, here?

It could alway be a relic from the Rule of Man

:-)

<duck>

<run>

Phil Kitching

(the questioner referred to TL14/15 so I assumed T4 rules not T4 setting)
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:51:38 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr Corsair Image

In a message dated 3/2/99 2:26:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, neo@total.net
writes:

<< Given the speed at which I threw these plans together, mostly between the
 hours of midnight and 4am, I'd be amazed if there weren't other little
 glitches hiding in there :)
  >>

Actually; you did a pretty good job, considering the goofs I've seen through
the years (all the way through CT...). It was the Vargr trader on the next
page that I thought was REALLY flawed, but it looks like a layout goof; not an
artist goof. When you get your copy; you'll see what I mean....

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:10:33 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

In a message dated 3/2/99 7:45:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, dstanley@direct.ca
writes:

<< Unfortunately Hollywood
 is terribly terribly predictable in the trash they produce, perhaps they
should honestly
 sit down and watch movies from around the world.
 
 What can we expect to see next from the corporate schmoe's in Hollywood?  A film about a
 group of ex-Pittsburg steel mill workers who decide to strip so they can pay their bills.
 They'll call it, "The Buck Naked"... >>

this is compounded by the fact that there is out right age discrimination in
Hollywierd. One of the newsshows on TV ran an expose' about how if you're a
scriptwriter older than 30-32; you are not hired with a dismissive "you're too
old to relate to our target audience" spiel from executives in their late
20's. This was said to writers who won emmy awards...go figure...but then
again Hollywierd is the one perpetuator of the "youth is everything" ideal...

Ob; Trav... here's a new one for the Traveller culture wars;...cultural takes
on age and youth....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:13:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 

>         P.S. Bear in mind that even if all mitochondria have
>         descended from one woman, they are not all identicle.
>         Mutations are constantly appearing. In fact, it is
>         unlikely that all of the mitochondria in your body
>         are genetically identicle.

Well, the overwhelmingly vast majority of them are...though it is only
the mitochondria in the egg that is fertilized that counts, and then
only in a woman's daughters.

As for 'Eve' being mother to us all, the geaneologists weren't at all
surprised, it is the identical analog to a family name dying out. All it
takes is one generation in a particular lineage to have nothing but
males (statistically hard, but not entirely unlikely) for that
mitochondrial gene to die out.

 Over the thousands and thousands of generations, it's easy to see that
only one was conserved. BUT this is entirely due to the highly specific
way in which that particular genome is passed along: it is descended
from ONLY the maternal side, and the genes in mitochondria DO NOT
undergo sexual reproduction, but binary fission only.

We have to remember that we're talking, essentially, what started as a
parasitic (though now completely obligate symbiotic) separate organism,
with it's own reproductive rate, and own rate of inerent mutation.
that's what makes them valulable as genetic clocks.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:33:41 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

David Smart writes:
"Hmm..my take on genetics was that if a parent's attribute is 
dominant, the child gets the entire attribute, rather than the 
attribute being "diluted" by the other parent's recessive 
attribute."

	This is essentially what dominant means.

"In regards to character attributes, I would rule then that 
the parental attributes represent a minimum/maximum range. 
Of course, with proper training or through the results of 
disastrous events, these min/max values may be exceeded."

	Well, a couple of cautions here. A short mother and
	a short father can have a tall child. This might 
	happen due to genetics (because of peculiarities in
	the mixing of genes), though this is unlikely. Much
	more likely is that the environment in which the 
	child develops (from conception to adulthood, and 
	beyond) was different from that of the parents. Body
	size is certainly affected (I believe that persons 
	of Japanese extraction are genetically just as tall 
	as those of british extraction, it is mainly 
	differences in diet that are responsible for observed
	differences in average height), and I have no doubt
	that intelect is at least as sensitive to nutrition, 
	socialization, education, etc. This is not to say 
	that there is no genetic variance for size or intelect 
	(let's not go there), just that environmental variance
	may be much more important in many cases.

	I'm getting carried away again. Bottom line: if you
	imagine that Psi is determined like other, more familiar, 
	traits, then the average of the parents might be the
	expected average for their offspring, but there could be 
	considerable variation around this value (even beyond the
	range of the parents). Say 2D-7+(parent's average) or
	some more clever formula that avoids too many Psi = 0 or
	Psi = 15.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:33:10 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Evolution

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
It's possible. It's just not as likely as you might think. There really
*are* some sort of "signals" that lead to sexual arousal. And it is
quite possible to be *very* interested in someone and have the signals
be "wrong". I'm not going to go into details, I'll just note that
regardless of how flexible you are mentally about such things, it's
possible have your "body" decide that it ain't gonna happen.

So *in general* the "cues" have to be right. An animal has similar
plumbing. An Alien may be just *too* different for our "programming" to
work with. We are remarkably flexible, but there will always be limits.
Sometimes very frustrating ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think there are enough paraphiliasts in the world to show evidence of a 
population of humans that respond to unusual sexual signals. There are 
people who respond sexually to certain garments, situations, odors, images, 
etc.  Considering that almost any human can close their eyes and have
their body respond to lubricated friction, it's really not that difficult to add
new cues to people's sexual response.

Whether that's the case with aliens, who knows. Does that sentient
herbivore only respond at all when in the presence of an ovulating female
of his own species? Does this sentient tentacled sea thingie have no
real sexual response at all, just an impulse to place a fertilizing packet
of goop on a female's distinctively colored mating ridge?

I recall a sci-fi short story where a scout team included a human, a pair
of avian humanoids and a dolphin-like alien. The dolphinoid was great
friends with the human, and there was a bit where the dolphinoid wanted
to take the relationship to another level. He'd heard of people who had
learned the difficult art of becoming sexually intimate with other intelligent
beings, and the idea interested him, but he had no idea how to ask the 
human if she would be interested or not. Though they were friends, the
cultural gap was as strong as the biological one.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:38:21 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 Spaceports

Black ICE wrote:

>My first Texas site for a shipyard would be Dallas/Fort Worth (what
>used to be the General Dynamics plant).

now Lockheed

>Other logical sites (off the top of my head) would be Long Beach, CA
>(the ex-Douglas plant); Seattle, WA (Boeing); and St. Louis, MO (the
>previously-mentioned Mac Air plant).

Add Wichita KS (Boeing), and where ever the Lockheed Skunk Works is
located

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:45:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> Take one airsick bag.
> Fill it with the chicken a'la king MRE.
> During the flight, pass the full airsick bag along, past the victim
> (usually a new guy on his cherry blast), and to your accomplice.
> Your accomplice looks in the airsick bag, grins, and begins eating the
> chicken a'la king.

I tried this in a bar once, using a hidden plastic bag of beef stew to
"vomit" on the bar, and then start eating it up... 

> This usually produced the desired result.

It got me 86'ed, yes, though I'm not sure if that's what I had in mind.

ObTrav:  Nah.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:24:08 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Artist Needed

Gentles,

Once again, I need a graphic artist: This time to create some simple
emblems (scout service office badges) in B&W for publication in GURPS
Traveller First In. I need them by 15 March, and there are six or seven
that need doing.

Payment is involved -- you get money for this, as well as a copy of the book.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:55:13 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

<<SNIP>>
>Re-read it. He was at *home* on *leave* when this was done.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
<<UNSNIP>>


Yeah, but it ain't as fun if you think of that!

ObTrav: "Yessir, it was definitely the valley in the middle..." -
paraphrased from the *slight* mistake that caused the (in)famous 'Charge of
the Light Brigade'.  If an npc slightly misreads the pc's message... "Send
three-and-fourpence - Am going to a dance?  Doing a Foxtrot at a time like
this??"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:04:33 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

> >>>In my Traveller universe, mixed-species couples are present. Not for sex
> >>>(wrong pheremones) but for everything else.  (I confess to snagging the
> >>>idea from David Brin.)
> >>
> > Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from fondling
> > the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals, you're GONNA
> > have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species that
> > resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable dolls (since
> > they can't have children?).
> 
> It's possible. It's just not as likely as you might think. There really
> *are* some sort of "signals" that lead to sexual arousal. And it is
> quite possible to be *very* interested in someone and have the signals
> be "wrong".

[Warning: slight naughtiness follows]

Unlikely, sure, but consider:

The signals given off by photos in a magazine, or words in 
a book, are highly, highly abstract, yet for some humans, 
they can be more sexually compelling than actual living 
people. 

Thus, I contend that a sufficiently intelligent alien can 
learn to "talk dirty, human style" in a manner sufficient 
to get a human aroused enough to let things happen.

For some ideas on how human-alien sex might happen, Phil 
Foglio's XXXenophile comics are a pretty good source. 
Incredibly silly stuff, for the most part (easily the 
funniest "porn" I've ever encountered), but there are some 
thought-provoking ideas buried amongst the gags. 

I'm thinking of one story in particular, where a human and
an alien are pair-bonded for political reasons, and wind up 
giving each other a "helping hand", initially out of mutual
friendship and respect. Plausible enough, I think - the only 
requirements are (1) body parts that convert friction into 
pleasure, and (2) individuals, not necessarily typical, who
aren't saddled with taboos about it. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:14:30 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: World Seeds

I have always thought that mobile communities have an
interesting feel (The Jawa (sp?) that droidnap R2D2 and
C3P0 in Star Wars, balooners or the MARS-1 vehicle in 
Morrow Project, etc.). If resources are scarce and widely 
dispersed then communities might regularly migrate, but 
it seems easier to simply transport tents/prefab houses
and set up temporary camps. Therefore, I have thought 
(from time to time) about what conditions would favour
completely mobile communities, at least for some of the 
population.

One possibility is some sort of threat that will come to
bear if the community stays stationary for more than, say, 
a few hours (perhaps as much as a couple of days?). Huge,
slow-moving beasts? Hoards of small, slow-moving beasts?
Orbital platforms programmed to incinerate any permanent
habitations?

Another angle is that resourses are spread very thin, and 
lawlessness encourages workers to bring their families with 
them as they lumber along, looking for stuff.

Of course, cultural patterns may help, but any lifestyle
will require at least some practical consideration in order
to persist (we all need to eat sooner or later, and pay for
the fuel for our land crawler). If anyone has an idea or two,
post it please.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:27:15 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)

>Trust me, a great number of us jingoistic Yanks were slack jawed in
>disbelief at the end of ID4.  Who knew that every airforce in the world
>flew F/A-18s?

Not to mention that *very* tough APC that could survive being near ground
zero of a nuclear blast, the explosive gasses that conveniently pass by
open doorways  in freeway tunnels, the Mac-compliant alien computer
systems, etc, etc., ad nauseum (and add nausia).

Of course, even this might not be quite as bad as the US soldiers that
couldn't hit Godzilla at 200 meters with a variety of firearms, or the
AH-64D pilots that forgot that they could go *up* when being chased by a
500-foot-tall giant iguana.

ObTrav: Are there any canonical worlds that have "oversized" fauna like
dinosaurs? (and why the heck do they grow so big, anyway?)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:40:03 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: World Seeds

Severe atmospheric changes would necessitate moving as well:

witness the Beduoins and the Kalahari Bushmen, who migrate as water and
animals become scarcer and more plentiful. IMTU I have designed a number
of planets with just such challenges:
- --high levels of tectonic activity causing frequent eruptions and deadly
lava flows, accompanied by the heat and fires associated with them (and
permitting societies who profit off the lava after it has cooled and can
be "harvested" ), 
- --regular storms created by seasonal changes that necessitate moving to
more sheltered areas that happen to be remote from fresh water (which is
why the locals can't stay in sheltered areas too long), 
- --a planet with a thin atmosphere and a heavy moon with a very eccentric
orbit that results in the atmosphere bulging drastically, making upper
altitudes incapable of supporting life, but only during a specific
season...
- --a planet in a system with no outer orbit Gas giant to attract
meteorites like jupiter does for us might mean the population has
developed a "science" (superstition, really) of trying to predict where
the next "Godstrike" will hit and moving to avoid it. (this also has
some cool local religion potential).

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Don't argue about the difficulties. The difficulties will argue for
themselves. (Winston Churchill)




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ian Ferguson [SMTP:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]
> Sent:	02 March 1999 13:15
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	World Seeds
> 
> I have always thought that mobile communities have an
> interesting feel (The Jawa (sp?) that droidnap R2D2 and
> C3P0 in Star Wars, balooners or the MARS-1 vehicle in 
> Morrow Project, etc.). If resources are scarce and widely 
> dispersed then communities might regularly migrate, but 
> it seems easier to simply transport tents/prefab houses
> and set up temporary camps. Therefore, I have thought 
> (from time to time) about what conditions would favour
> completely mobile communities, at least for some of the 
> population.
> 
> One possibility is some sort of threat that will come to
> bear if the community stays stationary for more than, say, 
> a few hours (perhaps as much as a couple of days?). Huge,
> slow-moving beasts? Hoards of small, slow-moving beasts?
> Orbital platforms programmed to incinerate any permanent
> habitations?
> 
> Another angle is that resourses are spread very thin, and 
> lawlessness encourages workers to bring their families with 
> them as they lumber along, looking for stuff.
> 
> Of course, cultural patterns may help, but any lifestyle
> will require at least some practical consideration in order
> to persist (we all need to eat sooner or later, and pay for
> the fuel for our land crawler). If anyone has an idea or two,
> post it please.
> 
> Ian

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #239
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 240



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Brain-children Having Children
RE: Brain-children Having Children
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)
Re: World Hooks 3
Re: GT Adventures
Fw: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)
Re: Imperial Religion
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Mining Sources (was Re: Vampires in Traveller? )
Re: Humour
Re: Bradley vs M113
Animal Size
Re: Doggie Breath
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Animal Size
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:41:41 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

David Smart wrote:
> Clif wrote:
> > Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...
> > 
> > Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a butt-ugly
> > nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the child's
> > APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's scores?  Some
> > genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in the husband
> > for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same with
> > eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?

Then after a few generations, everyone would have a UPP 
of 7777xx, no?

> > 
> > How realistic would this be, or should I actually sit down with my biology
> > book and figure it out "the old-fashioned way"?
>  
> Hmm..my take on genetics was that if a parent's attribute is dominant,
> the
> child gets the entire attribute, rather than the attribute being
> "diluted"
> by the other parent's recessive attribute. 

That's an oversimplification; most "attributes" are combinations of 
many many genes.

> In regards to character
> attributes, I would rule then that the parental attributes represent a
> minimum/maximum range.

Same problem; everyone would converge on average scores.

If you want parental stats to affect children, try taking the 
average of the parents' stats, rounded towards "average", and 
using that to adjust the midpoint of the generation of the child's 
stats. Using CT stats, a 9B35xx mother and a 488Cxx father would 
have a child who would be rolled up as usual, but with the following 
DMs:

STR:  (9+4)/2 = 6.5 -> 7 = DM +0
DEX: (11+8)/2 = 9.5 -> 9 = DM +2
END:  (3+8)/2 = 5.5 -> 6 = DM -1
INT: (5+12)/2 = 8.5 -> 8 = DM +1

If you think these modifiers are too subtle, consider that 
many of the stats are affected greatly by non-genetic factors.
Strength and Endurance are largely controlled by what kind 
of exercise you get while you're growing up, Dexterity might
be affected by how many video games you played as a kid,
and even the statistic of Intelligence might be affected by
your environment.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:06:55 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Brain-children Having Children

>Strength and Endurance are largely controlled by what kind 
>of exercise you get while you're growing up,...<

Childhood nutrition plays a HUGE part as well--undernourished children
in Europe during and after WW II tend to be 1-2 inches shorter than
their genetically-related cousins whose parents emigrated to the US and
Canada before the war.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Don't argue about the difficulties. The difficulties will argue for
themselves. (Winston Churchill)




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Russell Bornschlegel [SMTP:kaleja@rahul.net]
> Sent:	02 March 1999 13:42
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Re: Brain-children Having Children
> 
> David Smart wrote:
> > Clif wrote:
> > > Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...
> > > 
> > > Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a
> butt-ugly
> > > nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the
> child's
> > > APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's
> scores?  Some
> > > genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in
> the husband
> > > for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same
> with
> > > eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?
> 
> Then after a few generations, everyone would have a UPP 
> of 7777xx, no?
> 
> > > 
> > > How realistic would this be, or should I actually sit down with my
> biology
> > > book and figure it out "the old-fashioned way"?
> >  
> > Hmm..my take on genetics was that if a parent's attribute is
> dominant,
> > the
> > child gets the entire attribute, rather than the attribute being
> > "diluted"
> > by the other parent's recessive attribute. 
> 
> That's an oversimplification; most "attributes" are combinations of 
> many many genes.
> 
> > In regards to character
> > attributes, I would rule then that the parental attributes represent
> a
> > minimum/maximum range.
> 
> Same problem; everyone would converge on average scores.
> 
> If you want parental stats to affect children, try taking the 
> average of the parents' stats, rounded towards "average", and 
> using that to adjust the midpoint of the generation of the child's 
> stats. Using CT stats, a 9B35xx mother and a 488Cxx father would 
> have a child who would be rolled up as usual, but with the following 
> DMs:
> 
> STR:  (9+4)/2 = 6.5 -> 7 = DM +0
> DEX: (11+8)/2 = 9.5 -> 9 = DM +2
> END:  (3+8)/2 = 5.5 -> 6 = DM -1
> INT: (5+12)/2 = 8.5 -> 8 = DM +1
> 
> If you think these modifiers are too subtle, consider that 
> many of the stats are affected greatly by non-genetic factors.
> Strength and Endurance are largely controlled by what kind 
> of exercise you get while you're growing up, Dexterity might
> be affected by how many video games you played as a kid,
> and even the statistic of Intelligence might be affected by
> your environment.
> 
> -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:04:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
...
>What can we expect to see next from the corporate schmoe's in Hollywood?  A
film about a group of ex-Pittsburg steel mill workers who decide to strip so
they can pay their bills.
>They'll call it, "The Buck Naked"...

 Well, at least they'd be doing something original again, like "Three's
Company" :|

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:02:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 10:13 AM 3/2/99 -0600, you wrote:

>This one will be familiar to paratroopers, and can easily be adapted to
>Traveller (substitute "space-sick" for "airsick"):

Speaking of paratroopers..

An old and hallowed tradition is the "cherry blaster helmet."

On your first jump with your unit, you wear a special helmet. brightly
colored with imaginative slogans (like "lawn dart"), spikes on top, etc.

Think about what they'd do to jump troops on their first jump...
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:05:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)

At 01:27 PM 3/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Trust me, a great number of us jingoistic Yanks were slack jawed in
>>disbelief at the end of ID4.  Who knew that every airforce in the world
>>flew F/A-18s?
>
>Not to mention that *very* tough APC that could survive being near ground
>zero of a nuclear blast, the explosive gasses that conveniently pass by
>open doorways  in freeway tunnels, the Mac-compliant alien computer
>systems, etc, etc., ad nauseum (and add nausia).

More ID4 bashing.. when they nuked Houston, anybody else notice they were
*tracking* the Stealth bomber?  Not overly stealthy if it's emitting a
signal so the Presidents concerned advisors can watch it's entire run...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:25:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: World Hooks 3

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>On 02/28/99 at 12:59 PM,  Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> said:
>
>>13. A culture wants to expand, but suffers from one or more of the
>>following natural obstacles. 1) it doesn't have the agricultural
>
><snip>
>
>Ok, BITS, you've just got the first 17.  Now, when is _101 Worlds_
>going to be released?

Can you resend me them off list - I've been away for a few days and missed them


Proposals welcome...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:32:25 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

 "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>	Probably my fault. I ordered one of each, and they sent me one of
>each ... twice. I finally got around to mailing the extras back
>Friday; sorry for the delay.

Dave,

Any feedback?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:53:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Fw: Cultural Differences (was: Prissy Aunts of the TML)

"Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> wrote:

>Oh, yes, I am firmly aware that English and American are seperate languages.
>For instance, in England, it is not unusual for small children to ask the
>teacher for a "rubber"

English		US English
- ---------------------------------------
Pavement		Sidewalk
bumper		fender
boot		trunk (car)
fortnight		?


Just a start....

;-)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:03:51 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Religion

Phil Kitching writes:

>So the Holy Imperial Emperor has sanctioned crusades against the
>unbelievers, promising life eternal and all sins forgiven?

Welcome to WH40k

..or Faded Suns (which is considerably better)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:53:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
>	I have two in my Traveller campaign... which are the only ones who
>got out of the several hundred in my Cyberpunk campaign...  However, with
>the advent of plasma-temp weapons (hafla and worse), Vampires in any sf
>game I run keep very quiet and try not to be too obnoxious about there
>depredations.

The CP2020 Alternative reality sourcebook 'Night's Edge' had some
interesting ideas on vampires in orbit/space, and the ensuing problems.

There again, the CP2020 Deep Space Supplement is the best 'space
environment' book that Traveller never had. IMO it beats G: Space hands
down.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:12:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

"Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> wrote:

>I didn't know there was anything greater than Jump 3 in T4!  Did I
>miss something completely, here?

Yes, and no. FFS2 went to TL15 IIRC. ISTR that the bug fixed version of
QSDS (1.5) went to TL15 too.

The T4 Rulebook's QSDS was capped at TL12 for most items though for some
strange reason.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:32:33 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> Wasn't that Orion slave girl a hallucination?

I think it was a cut and paste from the original pilot with Capt. Pike's crew
and Chapel (later the nurse, then computer voice, then Troi's mother) as No.2.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:35:45 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> No Soo-rat like, Suerrat! ;-)

Sewer Rat?

> There is a picture in Vilani & Vargr showing a Geonee, a Suerrat, and
> a Cassildan compared to a Solomani.

Hmm.  Not in my copy.  Perhaps you mean a different title?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:52:16 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Mining Sources (was Re: Vampires in Traveller? )

At 07:53 PM 3/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
>>	I have two in my Traveller campaign... which are the only ones who
>>got out of the several hundred in my Cyberpunk campaign...  However, with
>>the advent of plasma-temp weapons (hafla and worse), Vampires in any sf
>>game I run keep very quiet and try not to be too obnoxious about there
>>depredations.
>
>The CP2020 Alternative reality sourcebook 'Night's Edge' had some
>interesting ideas on vampires in orbit/space, and the ensuing problems.
>
>There again, the CP2020 Deep Space Supplement is the best 'space
>environment' book that Traveller never had. IMO it beats G: Space hands
>down.

In addition to the CP2020 Deep Space Supplement and Near Orbit Supplement,
there is another game that can be mined for all sorts of ideas:  High
Colonies.  I only ever saw the main gamebook and one adventure published in
a gameing magazine, but what there was seemed to be of good quality and
imagination.  IMO, it ranks above the CP2020 stuff mainly because it does
not contain the cyberpunk style setting.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:00:53 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Humour

>   Naw, I just figured that pulling your leg would be much more productive
than
> genuinely participating in the absurdity passing for a discussion just now.

That should go out w/ the sub message from the TML.  ;-)

> >recent event to probably necessitate such).  They're in NATO, no?  Did they
> ...
> >happen in the relatively near future and even Canada would respond, though
I
> >guess I'm willing to be convinced they wouldn't.
> 
>   Oh gods, you do know where Europe is, at least? (although to be fair the
edges
> get a bit fuzzy :> )

Damn... That was on Jeopardy last night...  isn't that a town in Texas?  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:02:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> >isn't very useful in that role.  Lastly (or primarily, take your pick),
> >there's teh MPAT round.  It was designed for use against the common FSU
helo's
> >(especially Hind's), though smaller ones like the Havok and Hokum are
almost
> >guaranteed to be safe IIRC.
> 
> Sorry, I can't parse that. Are you saying that a Ka-50 / Mi-28 are safe
> from an MPAT round?

The MPAT is supposed to be quite useful against a Hind and similar choppers.
A havok is going to be much harder to hit.  I can't remember the specifics.
Choppers is very minor.  A Hind is very deadly to a tank, and we only study
them for SNAFU scenarios, but an MPAT can be just as deadly to a Hind, if it's
not careful.  

> >Turbine vs diesel engine.  World of difference.  The T-84 (AKA T-80DU, not
> >depleted uranium) has gone to a turbine system, but the T-80 and IIRC the
T-90
> >are still just diesel.
> 
> A Turbine? Not much more power (in fact, the British Army was offered a
> diesel with the same power output as the turbine in the M1. More
> maintenance, more fragile, more noise.

Err...  an M1 is alot quieter than an M60.  Downsides to turbines are
tremendous heat (and thus thermal signature), fuel consumption, and the
maintenance requirement (which u listed).  As far as fragile... the mech's say
the diesels were alot easier to tinker with...  

1500 hp?  I think most of the modern NATO tanks use turbines.  Almost positive
Leo IIs, Challenger IIs, and LeClercs all use turbines. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:50:05 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Animal Size

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
"Are there any canonical worlds that have "oversized" fauna 
like dinosaurs? (and why the heck do they grow so big, anyway?)

	Being big can have many advantages as well as 
	disadvantages. Bigger organisms generally are harder
	to kill and eat, have bigger offspring, thermoregulate
	with ease, win fights over mates, have more offspring,
	and are popular with wildlife preservation groups. On 
	the other hand, bigger organisms need more food, take
	longer to mature, have a hard time hiding, and are
	popular with hunters.

	The largest walking organism that we know about on 
	Terra was at least 80 tons 	(Brachiosaurus), while 
	there have been 30-ton mammals (Baluchitherium). 
	These may not have been at or even near the maximum 
	theoretical size possible (I'm sure that there are 
	trees that are much more massive, though 	they don't 
	move much), but there IS a maximum imposed by the 
	physical properties of the organism (such as the 
	compressive strength of bone) and gravity. In 
	general, I would expect planets with less gravity 
	could (but not necessarily) have the largest 
	animals. Naturally, aquatic (and perhaps lighter-
	than-air) organisms can be much larger. Blue whales
	are known to get well over 100 tons. Generally, 
	though, expect giant animals to move slowly
	relative to their size (this may still be fast),
	elephants may be killed by falling their own height.
	Ants may fall 1,000 times their height and be unhurt.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:14:45 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Doggie Breath

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:00:34 -0500, Derek Stanley
<dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:

>While breeding is
>impossible and who would want to kiss something with doggie
>breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there
>8^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species
>couldn't find something in common which attracted them to one
>another and kept them together for the long term.

Challenge 49.  There's an article about Mendan sector and the
Julian Protectorate, in which something called the "panet"
relationship is described.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:17:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

All right I profess ignorance...what is an MPAT round, and does FS or
Gridlore make a handgun that can use one? ;-)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > >isn't very useful in that role.  Lastly (or primarily, take your pick),
> > >there's teh MPAT round.  
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 17:21:10 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Animal Size

At 04:50 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
>"Are there any canonical worlds that have "oversized" fauna 
>like dinosaurs? (and why the heck do they grow so big, anyway?)

IIRC, in the folio on the Diaspora Sector there was a planet where they
pulled a Jurasic Park.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:41:47 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

At 11:44 pm 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Clayton wrote:
>
>>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other
than
>
>>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>>
>>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure
about
>>that.
>
>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>Florida.
>Florida is the prefered site now.
>
>Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
>Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other

	Rapa Nui, aka Easter Island, is an alternate for failures which
prevent Return to Base (RTB) and Abort to Orbit (ATO, also called
once-around). G. Harry Stine, under his Lee Correy pseudonym, wrote a
marvelous novel called "Shuttle Down" about just such an event ...
and identified a whole string of issues which NASA hadn't considered.
IIRC, they basically agreed with everything he found, and implemented
changes.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:48:16 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

At 06:07 pm 3/1/99, you wrote:
>At 04:14 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Why not for sex?  It didn't seem to stop James Tiberius Kirk from
fondling
>>the green lady.  If you have deviants who molest farm animals,
you're GONNA
>>have mixed-species couples (I assume by this you mean those species
that
>>resemble each other) using each other as interactive inflatable
dolls (since			
>>they can't have children?).
>
>Wasn't that Orion slave girl a hallucination?
>
>Anyway, sexual attraction is a combination of a great many factors,
90% of
>whuich are mental.  Consider what Americans define as "sexy".. thin,
large
>breasted women.  The _Baywatch_ paradigm.  Go back sixty years, and 


	Please! Let's not stereotype Americans, please ... we're supposed to
be the ones doing the stereotyping. (But am I the only one who finds
Pamela repulsive ...?)

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:21:41 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

At 03:30 pm 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The Sayat have no basis whatsoever in "canon" and are wholly my own
>brainchildren.  They have nothing to do with the Templars at all.
Honest.
>They're the counter-Templars, though, I suppose you could say.  Or
maybe
>parallels to the Templars, in regards to their obsession with the
esoteric
>aspects of the Illuminated Traveller Universe.  They used to have a
>website, which has been removed.

	Huh? Why? And by whom? If you need the space, I can offer it
(although I can't promise high-speed maintenance) ... Although I've
got about 20M already, my account has a fairly high limit. I kept
getting automated messages from the sysadmin's account telling me I
was over the 10M limit my ISP provides free, and I kept sending
emails back to him telling him I'd be happy to pay the $1/M for
excess storage, just quit the durn emails. Finally he sent me an
email back saying he'd passed that on to accounting time and again,
and since they couldn't get their act together, he was just cranking
my limit high enough neither of us would have to deal with the hassle
...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #240
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 241



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Evolution (Was Smallpox)
Re: WebSector
Published versions of the Donosev
Re: Evolution
Re:  smallpox
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Published versions of the Donosev
Re: Evolution
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution 
RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
World Hooks 6
Re: Evolution
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Pranks
Re: Evolution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:29:37 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 04:24 pm 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Then maybe we don't have it so easy, because it was 5:30 AM in
Alaska if you
>wanted to make it for Physical Training.

	If you *wanted* to make it for PT? Sounds like the Army is getting a
lot easier. "No thanks, sarge. I think I'll just pass on PT this
morning. But wake me in time for breakfast, OK?"
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:48:22 -0000
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Evolution (Was Smallpox)

Book Title Orphan of Creation

By Roger MacBride Allen

ISBN 0-7088-4959-8


On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:09:12 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Said

In mail you write:

> On 03/01/99 at 01:10 PM, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

SNIP

There's a book by an SF author (I can't recal the title or author at
the moment) that has a anthropologist (or maybe paleontologist) visting
the family home in the South (her family wound up owning the old
plantation they'd been slaves on).

SNIP

I won't spoil the story by continuing. If someone recognizes the author
and title from my description, *please* post them. The book would be a
gold mine for any ref trying to have any of our "cousin" species show
up as the population of a world.

- -Cheers, Nick.

Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,
and Death walks at his left hand...

UTUP.
0609-A666A667-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:12:41 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: WebSector

No, please, not cgi!! Lets try to stick to Java and Javascript on the
client - even server side Java if we have to - but stick with something that
will last and can be moved to another server if it has to.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>; scspieker@ncweb.com
<scspieker@ncweb.com>
Date: 01 March 1999 00:39
Subject: Re: WebSector


>Ok, let's collect our wits.
>
>The idea so far is to re-create the X-boat route, starting in the
>Deneb sector.  There are lots of neat things we can do, including
>using perl-cgi scripts to interface with a central database for
>fetching routing information, automatic star system generation
>software, etc.
>
>I think what we need right now, however, is a Very Simple
>proof of concept.  Might I suggest a hand-detailed page of
>basic system information, including hard-coded links to the
>xboat route neighbors?  The fun stuff can be attached at leisure;
>but let's just get something up now.  Is that okay?  If we get
>enough volunteers, we can string our sites out across Deneb,
>into the Marches, Corridor, and Reft...
>
>Keep those ideas coming.
>
>Rob
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:41:33 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Published versions of the Donosev

Dear Folks -

The Donosev-class Survey Ship appears in the following publications:

     1.   _Supplement 9: Fighting Ships_, GDW, 1981, p13. Includes Paul
Jaquays line drawing, HG stats & description, and was first named here.
     2.   _Grand Survey_, DGP, 1986, pp23-25 & cover. Includes Joe D.
Fugate cover painting, HG stats (identical to Bk9 except cargo reduced from
15 tons to 10) & description, Ed Edwards elevation views & deckplans.
     3.   _MegaTraveller World Builder's Handbook_, DGP, 1989, pp48-51.
Includes B&W crop of Joe D. Fugate cover painting, MT stats & description,
Ed Edwards elevation views & deckplans, Rob Caswell (?) pic & placement
silhouette of the bridge area (a la _Starship Operators Manual_, Cats &
Rats, etc).
     4.   _Traveller: The New Era_ rulebook, GDW, 1993, p375. B&W ship pic,
TNE stats. Size changed to 600 tons - is this errata?
     5.   _Brilliant Lances Technical Booklet_, GDW, 1993. Repeats the TNE
rulebook page, including the 600 tons change. BL ship counter included in
the boxed set.

I can't find the MT (Challenge??) article about "Ships of the Black War"
(can anyone help) so there may well be a reference in there as well.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:02:38 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999, you wrote:
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>> There is a picture in Vilani & Vargr showing a Geonee, a Suerrat, and
>> a Cassildan compared to a Solomani.
>
>Hmm.  Not in my copy.  Perhaps you mean a different title?
>
Perhaps unsurprisingly, it's in Solomani & Aslan, page 24. And there's a
Zhodani in the picture also.

- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:07:53 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:  smallpox

Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:51:00 -0800, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re:  smallpox
>
>Here is an answer to the Vilani digestive bugs/Plague problem.

>300,000 years is a long time.  Even if you start with a small initial
>population (and correspondingly fewer diseases) on Vland, disease still has
>a long long time to develop into complex forms.  Forms complex enough that
>Vilani bugs, few and far between by Terran standards, should have been just
>as deadly as the Earth bugs.  Terrans would have no resistance to something
>that evolved on Vland.  In fact, there should be very deadly Vlandish
>diseases, since they couldn't feed on anything else but humans.  The
>bacteria/virus/whatever would be specifically evolved to take advantage of
>a human metabolism.

The solution is to distinguish between bacteria and viruses.
Vland would have its own set of bacteria to deal with.  However,
the Vilani live for several dozen mellenia without being exposed
to virus crossing over from other species.  The only have ones
that they brought with them (and if Grandfather simply made
sure that all his subjects weren't infected).  They then
evolve through this period with a greatly reduced viral
threat.  When they come into contact with the Earth and
its array of human compatible viruses....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:08:46 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

> On the subject of the M60 and M1, a story I heard had an M1 stuck in a
> mudhole with a bunch of angry natives on the warpath; two M88 Recovery

Must be some bunch of angry natives, even using the tank as a bunker, should
still have some respectable firepower... especially if there are others
nearby.

> vehicles had completely failed to pull the M1 free so it was decided to blow
> it up rather than let the locals get their mucky paws on it.
> TWO M1 shots failed to penetrate the hull armor, so a third climbed up the
> hill and shot into the top of the turret.  *Unfortunately* the ammo only
> blew the blowout panels off.

Hmm...  The prescribed method for "destroying" a tank, should it have to be
abandoned, is to use the 8 thermite grenades deployed with each tank.  Put one
in the breech block, one over the batteries, shoot... that's all I can
remember for sure.  Others are probably for the radios, fire control system,
ammunition compartment (through the blow off panels), engine, and gun/turret
drive...  It renders the tank useless since it won't be able to move or shoot.
Using another tanks main gun is going to run into the measures designed
against enemy main guns and would be the last resort.

I expect if there were "angry natives on the warpath" (and presumably nearby)
other tanks would be shooting at these natives rather than at the friendly
tank they hope to destroy rather than have captured.  And lastly, they'll
should've known where to shoot the tank if they wanted to (the rear not the
front and once the blow off panels are off, again w/ a direct shot, so you can
wreck the inside of the front of the turret, and the main gun), though
assumign they're closer than one click, its gonna do some serious damage,
though a hull hit won't "blow up" the tank, even if the fuel goes up (you'll
just blow up the engine and fuel tanks).  The things to disable/destroy are
main gun, the engine and the radios.

> By then two more M88s had arrived and the four pulling together freed the
> tank.  The turret was replaced and shipped home for examination, the tank
> was repaired and sent back into action.

The M88 sucks for an M1 recovery vehicle.  It's far too light.  I've
personally witnessed them towing an Abrams on hardball and losing control.
And (urgh) I have been stuck in the mud.  It only took 1 M88, but also bout 20
Marines and a bulldozer (which in a deployed situation would be another M88).
Congress shot down the General Dynamics recovery vehicle, though I havne't
heard the fate of the proposed replacement (consisting of an M1 chassis w/ the
accessories from the IIRC).  My unit just got a brand new M88, though. : |

> +ObTrav; how do you free a stuck G-tank?  (How do you **STICK** a G-tank in
> the first place??)  Possibly a higher-tech, undercover, force manages to get
> a tank bogged on a world they're not supposed to be on; how do you get it
> out without letting the locals see your nice little spaceship?

Some sort of CG/AG "nullification field" or something.  Yeah, sounds like I've
been watching too much Star Trek, but shouldn't it be possible for certain
conditions (excepting hte obvious: malfunction and damage) to disable Contra
Grav/Anti Gravity?

> Nasty tricks for new arrivals?  Send 'em out for Long Weights, Left-handed
> Screwdrivers, or green and brown camo paint; let 'em fix test kit costing
> loadsamoney then stand behind 'em - with two metal trays - when they power
> it up after fixing it - the list just goes on and on...

All the tanks are online except one, by a small margin, so you tell the newbie
to go behind it and push and you'll put the tank in neutral (despite the fact
it's 68 tons).  
Also to find a "roadwheel pressure gauge."  The funniest I've heard of is to
get a BFA for the 120mm main gun.  The mech's have a gigantic replica of the
one used on the M16A2, for some reason (though what I have no idea), and
somehow someone actually got it in the main gun.  That sucker must've weighed
a ton, too.  Also, I've witnessed a newbie sent to get an "E8 Prick Bigmouth
wrench" from the Master Sgt and watch him blow up in mock anger, frightening
the hell out of the newbie.  Also works on Gunny's and Staff Sgts, though I
don't know anyone even dumb enough to use it on their Sgt Major or First Sgt.
Hmm...  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:08:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In the Marine Training Company at Fort Knox, Ky (I think we were given the
designation D co designation by the Army, to go w/ whatever the batallion
training unit was (which I can't remember), but we never used any of it, just
went by the above) we had alot of friendly rivalry.  Of course, we despised
the training soldiers (tankers specifically) there as soft, weak, and
malleable, but we had been ordered to stay away from them.  IIRC, the
instructions were "Don't talk to them, don't stare them down, don't pick a
fight with them, but if they lay one finger on any you, rip them apart."
Amongst ourselves we had the obvious internal competition between different
platoons and tank crews, etc, too but was minor compared to coexistance with
the USMC tank mech's.

Our barracks had three decks (floors) to it.  Bottom deck was the Rec Deck.
It had a weight room (2 actually), a computer room (w/ a dozen, late pentium
models), rec room (bigscreen tv, chairs, couches, pool table, dart boards, etc
in an adjoining room), also w/ a turret mockup room, and a couple class rooms,
as well as the offices for the staff, etc (though the officers and the
permanent admin were in other buildings farther away).  The second deck was
the tanker deck.  The three training tank platoons split the deck amongst
them, guides, scribes, and squad leaders (sometimes) getting a 2 man room.
Everyone else getting 4 man rooms.  Third deck was the training mechanics
deck.  Tankers didn't go on the mech deck and mech's didn't come to the tanker
deck, but every now and then, a few of us tankers would make "raids" onto the
mech's deck.  We'd put on heat protective hoods (which we never use for
anything else, actually), gloves, and get spray bottles and run through their
deck spraying down and slugging the mech's we coudl find and run like hell
when the whole deck would boil up out of their rooms and give chase.   They
caught one of us once, though I wasn't a part of that raid, and carried that
Marine, kicking and fighting, off to the head where they dunked his head in
the toilet (clean or not, he didnt' say <g>), hogtied and gagged him and left
him on the doorstep of our deck.  We were all far too amused to be angry by
it, though we stepped up our raiding IIRC.  ;-)

ob trav.  Life in the barracks of a Regency MArCav training regiment.  When
friendly rivalry sometimes isn't so friendly (at least for isolated
perpetrators who get caught). 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:17:04 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Published versions of the Donosev

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999, you wrote:
>
>I can't find the MT (Challenge??) article about "Ships of the Black War"
>(can anyone help) so there may well be a reference in there as well.
It was in Challenge - I have it here somewhere, but as I remember the article
included only new designs from Rob Dean and some write-up from Charles Gannon.
- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:08:41 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Evolution

> A dim view of the Imperium, but its got the plot hooks.

Sadly enough, it's a step up from the Zhunastu School of Contact (or whatever
it's called) in M:0.

I always envisioned the 3I as being more of  a meritocracy, than having
institutionalized racism.  The Major/Minor race thing I always thought was
something thought of and used by pointy headed academics, rather than the
populous at large.  The bloodlines (at least Solomani & Vilani, though it's
safe to toss in a few of the other MHRs, too, IMO) are supposed to have become
so mixed in the time during and since the Rule of Man that the differences
were largely cultural.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:08:50 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

Eamon said:

> Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
> steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence

There was a Brits scene?  I remember the Israelis and what I think was
supposed to be Russians and Chinese, but don't remember any Brits.  Um...
what's that stereotype anyways?  I didn't see any Austin Powers teeth or
anything...  That's the only Brit stereotype I know of.

> Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by

That's a little overreacting, no?  :-)  *That* would be the US beating the
aliens and then conquering the rest of the planet (or at least the rest of
"our" hemisphere).  ;-)

Doug Berry said:

> Trust me, a great number of us jingoistic Yanks were slack jawed in
> disbelief at the end of ID4.  Who knew that every airforce in the world
> flew F/A-18s?

You mean, they don't? ;-)  Seriously, I thought they showed Mig 29s outside
that Russian farm or cave or whatever it was and an F-16 w/ the star of david
on it.  The only place we saw F/A-18s was in the fighting over teh US, wasn't
it?  (Specifically the "ruins of downtown LA" and Area 51).  The part that got
me was (ignoring the female protagonist, and her dog, surviving the blast in
that closet or whatever when everything else was annihalated) was the crazy
old crop duster guy ramming the "main weapon" and causing the whole thing to
blow up.  That and other obvious things (the computer compatiblity, the
internal defenses, or lack of, in the "mothership"), etc etc.


Derek wrote:

> My favorite scenes in the movie was the shot in the desert and the other
"locations 
> around the world" shots.  It gave a brief sence of the global totality of
this disaster.

Me 2, though it's probably more likely that alien ship would've landed *on*
the Pyramids and flattened it.  And that the alien ship would've landed *on*
Area 51, flattening/caving it in, mostly.  Etc etc.

> It was unfortunate that the producers didn't see that as a boon to the
movie,
> unfortunately in Hollywood showing things outside the US is rarely viewed as
a
> good thing it's a matter of simple economics and market.

Yup.  Plus, foreign events for me is usually what happens in Texas or on the
east coast or backwater of Arkansas.  ;-)  j/k.  Really.  I am.  Stop looking
at me like that.  

To effectively add the "foreign effect" would've meant adding significant
footage (and sfx) to the movie (probably double for a "good" treatment).
Since the movie is focused on the invasion over the US, for a US audience who
just wouldn't be interested in what the aliens did on the other side of the
globe, it would've been kinda superfluous to have that footage, I think,
though different foreign "editions" from different viewpoints, as someone
suggested, would've been pretty cool.  

Non Americans on the list seem almost unanimous in their contempt (much like
the Americans, too, it seems).  How did the box office numbers do in Europe
and Canada, anyone?  IIRC it did pretty good here, though i don't remember for
sure... think July 4th was like a wednesday or thursday that year (95?),
wasn't it?  Not having the demographics or anything, I'd think the same crowd
that flocked to see ID4 are the ones who see horror movies and other action
flicks.  Realism is neither required nor desired. 

> Unfortunately Hollywood
> is terribly terribly predictable in the trash they produce, perhaps they
should 
> honestly sit down and watch movies from around the world.

Why would they want to do that?  It's all bout money and IIRC Hollywood movies
make far more money overseas than foreign films do domestically in the US,
where it's a niche market, if anything.  Plus, when you come down to it, most
movies from anywhere are the same basic plot with different faces and details
and possibly a new twist now and then.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:18:10 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Evolution

> > There is a picture in Vilani & Vargr showing a Geonee, a Suerrat, and
> > a Cassildan compared to a Solomani.
> 
> Hmm.  Not in my copy.  Perhaps you mean a different title?

It's Solomani & Aslan.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:16:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution 

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )

<snigger>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:24:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Moral Umbrage and all that rot.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>> > MEMO TO ALL LEVEL 5 OPERATIVES:
>> >
>> > Either eliminate this "Kenji", or recruit him.  He knows too much to
>> > be
>> > allowed freedom.
>>
>> Sir, We have several times. But "Kenji" has a slick coating

Summary Report:
- ----------------------
The Kenji Construct continues to prove the most effective of our
assimilated personalities. Fortunately, none of the specimens within the
Terpitude, Moral - Laboratory (TML hereafter) appeared to notice the brief
period in which the construct was not present whilst personality
programming and transfer was achieved.

Reintroduction of the 'Kenji' personality has now been achieved; evidence
has been gathered to demonstrate that the specimens are locked in the same
cyclic behavioural patterns as before. Indeed, it is possible that these
cycles are accelerating, which may result in destruction of specimens
unable to adapt to the environment.

As a result we recommend that the development of the 'Ian/Ditzie' Schitzoid
Personality Construct, and the moderated variant of the Darroch/Hengebar
Construct 'Ross' is accelerated before adaption failures occur. Indeed,
some adaption is proceeding in ways unpredicted by the programme, and
requires correction. Both the 'Berry-Sniper' Specimen, and the
'Bloo-Lawyer' Specimen show disturbing levels of awareness of the
programme's existance and aims. The 'Clif' Personality Construct has been
introduced to compliment the 'Heretic-Reddoch' Construct's program of
disinformation and direction.

Advice and Review of the Programme to date is requested.

- ------

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:19:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In a message dated 3/2/99 9:48:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:

<< Take one airsick bag.
 > Fill it with the chicken a'la king MRE.
 > During the flight, pass the full airsick bag along, past the victim
 > (usually a new guy on his cherry blast), and to your accomplice.
 > Your accomplice looks in the airsick bag, grins, and begins eating the
 > chicken a'la king.
 
 I tried this in a bar once, using a hidden plastic bag of beef stew to
 "vomit" on the bar, and then start eating it up... 
 
 > This usually produced the desired result. >>

I have a question; did you guys steal this from "The Great Santini" or did
Robert Duvall steal it from the service?...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:58:13 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Hooks 6

More World Hooks
(I misnumbered "World Hooks 5" as "World Hooks 4", which had already been
posted. My apologies for any confusion.

31. There is a strong belief in spirits and the afterlife; so
much that people routinely orient their behavior towards making
the spirits welcome. Tales of ghosts and various forms of
spiritual intervention abound. (Those who specialize in debunking
the occult are not welcome here.)

32. Lack of erosion makes human constructs enduring reminders of
the past. Not only are its ancient monumental constructions on
this world noted all over a wide area, but the people have keen
sense of history and discuss events of ten thousand years ago as
if they had occurred last year.

33. The world is agricultural and taxes are collected annually
(planetary year) after the harvest. (Lower tax rates than most
Americans endure without protest are considered oppressive and
confiscatory when they come due all at once, or after the taxpayer
has received the money instead of before)

34. The rulers of a world are despised as hated conquerors by the people
they rule, in spite of the ruler's best efforts to educate those they rule
and create goodwill. 

35. The absolute ruler of a world is attempting singlehandedly to
make a radical change in its religion. (Religious interests are
closely tied to economic and political interests)

36. One of the high-population worlds which had politically,
economically, and culturally dominated the region has suffered a
devastating reversal. Several of the worlds that it had
influenced are now asserting their independence, though none have
the same stature it did.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:26:12 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Mark Watson wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999, you wrote:
> >Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> >> There is a picture in Vilani & Vargr showing a Geonee, a Suerrat, and
> >> a Cassildan compared to a Solomani.
> >
> >Hmm.  Not in my copy.  Perhaps you mean a different title?
> >
> Perhaps unsurprisingly, it's in Solomani & Aslan, page 24. And there's a
> Zhodani in the picture also.

I don't have that one.

What do the Suerrat and Cassildan look like?

>
>
> --
> Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:34:50 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:13 AM 3/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >This one will be familiar to paratroopers, and can easily be adapted to
> >Traveller (substitute "space-sick" for "airsick"):
> 
> Speaking of paratroopers..
> 
> An old and hallowed tradition is the "cherry blaster helmet."
> 
> On your first jump with your unit, you wear a special helmet. brightly
> colored with imaginative slogans (like "lawn dart"), spikes on top, etc.
> 
> Think about what they'd do to jump troops on their first jump...
> --
One of my characters in our recent M:1100 campaign (using T4 rules) was
an Imperial Army officer who had spent most of his career in cav (light
armor) units.  As the campaign began, he was assigned as S-2 to the jump
troop regiment that my other character commanded.  Needless to say, he
had to go through accelerated jump training.

First drop with the unit was a "Hell on the half-shell" ablative
reentry.

(Fortunately, I made a roll to maintain my composure, and therefore did
not have to report to the SEP [Skivvie Exchange Point] post-drop.)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:40:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>Florida.
>Florida is the prefered site now.


Yeah, I never see a Boeing 747 with the Shuttle piggyback toiling slowly by
my house, anymore.  That is such a cool site.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:46:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Pranks

>Here's what me and a friend did on our recruit course.
>
>We dressed up like the Orderly Officer and the Duty  NCO, and marched
>into the female barracks at 1pm, and yelled "SNAP INSPECTION" and with
>appropriate swearing and yelling got them all standing to attention.

Isn't impersonating a commissioned officer a Federal Offense?  A sure court
martial?

>At this point the lights were still off, so they couldn't see us.

So dressing up was needless?

> We
>then marched to the end of the dormitory, took a single flash
>photograph,  said "Thank you, ladies" and leapt out the end window
>before they could get us.

I'm surprised you could find your way.  I took a picture at night with a
flash when in a foxhole and was pretty well blinded, wondering if I had
permanently ruined my eyesight.

 --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:46:50 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

On Wed, 03 Mar 1999, you wrote:
>
>What do the Suerrat and Cassildan look like?
>
Suerrat - thickset, between 4 and 5 foot high (taller than the Geonee but not
as broad) covered in hair, wearing what looks like a one-piece swimsuit and a
holster for a handgun. My general take was, also taking into account the name,
that these guys were the equivalent of how half-orcs used to be played in AD&D.
Also I recall reading somewhere that Suerrat form the majority of humaniti in
Illelish? I guess more detail would have been available had the Black Duke ever
been published.

Cassildan - tall, skinny, hollow-cheeked, nerdy looking, with a Turkish type
costume and a sword.

The illustration is by Blair Reynolds.

M
- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #241
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 242



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Abyss
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: alternate Shuttle landing sites
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Brain-children Having Children
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
Re: Zho/Vilani crossbreeding (was Re: Ewwww.....)
Milieu E21: Spaceports
Re: Pranks
Re: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re : Vampires In Traveller
Re : Brain children having children
GURPS Traveller Ships (nee GURPS Traveller Vehicles)
Re: Evolution
Re: Pranks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:08:21 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Abyss

Dear Folks -

Joseph wrote:
>A few weeks ago someone mentioned the Abyss, that area of space in the
[snip]
>I'd like to hear other peoples ideas, stories, or what-have-you,

IMTU, the Abyss is a bit like the Bermuda Triangle - over-rated. ;-)
However, the fact remains that three worlds in the centre are Red-Zoned, at
least one due to the Ancient artifacts (black globes) found there, so there
is more intrigue (read: plotlines) available to be mined. Although the
Ancients can be overused...

If the PCs want to investigate, work out about three "real" unexplainables
as scenarios, and have the rest as ones they can track down -
disappearances due to barratry, piracy, misjumps (ie. they find the ship),
etc. Again, a bit like the Ancients, you don't want to overuse the area.

I have run my PC's through the "lost ship" scenario, where they recovered
the time-warping Ottem. Who knows - maybe this very artifact is what Avery
may use to travel back and create G:T... [rest of transmission snipped for
secrecy]...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:14:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>  I tried this in a bar once, using a hidden plastic bag of beef stew to
>  "vomit" on the bar, and then start eating it up... 
>  
>  > This usually produced the desired result. >>
> 
> I have a question; did you guys steal this from "The Great Santini" or did
> Robert Duvall steal it from the service?...:-)

Being wildly unsuited for military service, I did this on a bet; I have no
idea where the other bettor's idea came from.  It wasn't mine,
unfortunately.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:31:06 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: alternate Shuttle landing sites

Mark Urbin wrote:

>Stewart AFB in Newburgh, NY is about #12 on the list.  It has a nice
>long runway for C-5s.
>
>On the downside, it's right between Poughkeepsie & New Jersery. :-)

Reese AFB was #1 (so Air Force rookies would not overrun the runway) and
nothing to run into at either end of the runway.  Last I heard Lubbock
was going to cut up the runway and put in warehouses.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:41:51 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 05:54 PM 01/03/99, you wrote:
>At 06:43 PM 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>ObTrav:  It would be interesting to speculate on the kinds of pranks
>>that veteran soldiers play on newbies, in any era (Ghu knows we play our
>>share on new troops in the US Army circa 1999)....
>
>Along the lines of the infamous "can of track tension"? gags?
>
>Blank adaptor for a laser rifle
>Assigning newbie to sensor watch in jump (see if he actually shows up)
>Send new guy to get the combat armor air fresheners
>In the motor pool, send new guy to requistion the wrench to tighten the
>grav tank trnasmission.
>
>I got sent to find the blank adapter for the M-203.  Which is a grenade
>launcher.  D'oh!
>-- 
>
        A favorite amongst Canadian Naval engineers is sending newbie from
aft machinery compartment to ask the duty tech in the forward machinery
compartment for "the long weight".... (parse with "wait" and you see the
result ;)
        "I need a bucket of prop-wash" is another common request.....

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:39:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Being wildly unsuited for military service, I did this on a bet; I have no
> idea where the other bettor's idea came from.  It wasn't mine,
> unfortunately.
> 
Is that actually "wildly unsuited", or would it be more accurate to say
"unsuitably wild"?  ;-)  (If the latter, have you considered a career as
a US Army interrogator [MOS 97E]?)

ObTrav:  One way to explain a failed survival roll would be to declare
that the character was deemed to be unsuited for service in the
traditional branches.  This does not mean, however, that the character
is unsuited for service in Intelligence, in the service from which the
character would otherwise be discharged.

> Kenji

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:42:30 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: Evolution


>At 06:07 pm 3/1/99, you wrote:
>>At 04:14 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Anyway, sexual attraction is a combination of a great many factors,
>90% of
>>whuich are mental.  Consider what Americans define as "sexy".. thin,
>large
>>breasted women.  The _Baywatch_ paradigm.  Go back sixty years, and
>
>
> Please! Let's not stereotype Americans, please ... we're supposed to
>be the ones doing the stereotyping. (But am I the only one who finds
>Pamela repulsive ...?)
>
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>   Dave Golden

Yea Dave! I agree with you....I find the rather flat chested brunette to be
much sexier than any of the Buxom women starring in that show.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:33:41 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

- ----------
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Date: Tuesday, 02 March, 1999 4:29 PM

>At 04:24 pm 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Then maybe we don't have it so easy, because it was 5:30 AM in
>Alaska if you
>>wanted to make it for Physical Training.
>
>	If you *wanted* to make it for PT? Sounds like the Army is getting a
>lot easier. "No thanks, sarge. I think I'll just pass on PT this
>morning. But wake me in time for breakfast, OK?"

Just a guess, but I'll bet that if you miss PT, you will really, really
want to have been there. :-)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:58:57 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

- ----------
> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
> Date: Tuesday, 02 March, 1999 6:08 PM
> 
> > On the subject of the M60 and M1, a story I heard had an M1 stuck in a
> > mudhole with a bunch of angry natives on the warpath; two M88 Recovery
> 
> Must be some bunch of angry natives, even using the tank as a bunker,
should
> still have some respectable firepower... especially if there are others
> nearby.

Full story goes like this.  An M1 from 24th Infantry Div bogged down during
Desert Storm (the quagmires in Southern Iraq were notorious)  .  24th ID
was pretty much the extreme left of the hook movement and ran into some
meaningful resistance from an Iraqi Guards division.  This particular tank
was stuck and left behind to wait for a recovery vehicle while its unit
continued to advance.  Unfortunately, the US line was far from solid at
this point and some Iraqi units had been missed and/or bypassed.  A trio of
T-72s showed up, probably completely lost.  The US crew, possibly hoping
not to be seen, waited it out.  (They were on the radio screaming for help
at this point)    The Iraqis opened fire at less than 1000 yards and
bounced at least two HEAT rounds of the M1's frontal armor to no effect. 
The M1 returned fire with sabot, blowing one T-72 to pieces with the first
shot and blew the engine out of the second one from the rear as it ran. 
The third T-72 fired sabot at less than 400 yards and failed to do damage
to the M1, despite a solid hit.  It then decided to take cover behind a
nearby sand berm.  The M1 put a sabot round *through* the berm for a
catastrophic kill on the third T-72.
 
> > TWO M1 shots failed to penetrate the hull armor, so a third climbed up
the
> > hill and shot into the top of the turret.  *Unfortunately* the ammo
only
> > blew the blowout panels off.
> Hmm...  The prescribed method for "destroying" a tank, should it have to
be
> abandoned, is to use the 8 thermite grenades deployed with each tank.  

The standard version of this story has it that no explosives were
available.  Why? I don't know.  My guess is that they just wanted to see
how tough the thing really was and this was a good opportunity. 

BTW: after the ammo panels blew out, they put a round in the gun of the
stuck tank, and fired it ... successfully.  The sights were out of whack,
but the gun itself was intact.

As it turns out, mines were the real tank killers in ODS.

ObTrav, is there and way to build a practical anti-grav tank mine.?  I was
thinking some sort of one shot plasma weapon, with low-cost passive sensors
for acquisition and a basic comm net to coordinate attacks .   How cheap
can you make a grav sensor?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:40:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

In mail you write:

>>Therefore, *every* character
>>is (technically) psionic unless their Psi rating is zero.
>>They're simply not trained to use it.
>
> So psionic capacity is not genetic?  Does psionic ability not come from full
> or higher usage of the total mind?
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...
>
> Say that Dishi (a hypothetical swimsuit model) marries Dweebus (a butt-ugly
> nerd), wouldn't it be safe to say that the overall result of the child's
> APPearance score (IMTU) be the average of the two character's scores?  Some
> genetic traits will be dominant in the wife and some dominant in the husband
> for an overall effect of an average of the two APP scores.  Same with
> eyesight, hearing, dexterity, etc.?
>
> How realistic would this be, or should I actually sit down with my biology
> book and figure it out "the old-fashioned way"?

You'd need to sit down with the book.

Appearance is controlled by a shitload of genes. So it *might* average.
Then again, it might not.

Remember, for each of the millions of genes in their DNA, the offspring
gets ones from the father and one from the mother. At any given "slot",
there are a variety of possible genes IN THE GENOME. But only those
present in one of the parents can show up an individual (ignoring
mutations). 

So if the kid gets A from the father and B from the mother, the results
could be A (if A is dominant and B is recessive), B (if B is dominant
and A is recessive) or perhaps some mix of the two (if neither is
dominant). 

Then there are things like sex-linked genes....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:48:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

In mail you write:

> Clayton wrote:
>
>>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other than
>>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>>
>>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure about
>>that.
>
> Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
> Florida.
> Florida is the prefered site now.
>
> Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
> Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other

Actually, those sound like the *contigency* landing sites. 

Rota, Spain, and someplace in Japan are also alternates, most of the
alternates are for situations where the shuttle hasn't gained enough
speed after launch to do an "abort to orbit" (lower than normal orbit)
or "abort once around" (a sort of *long* suborbital trajectory that'll
bring it back to the launch site). They also come into play if there's
a situation where the shuttle needs to make a de-orbit burn *now*
rather than waiting until it'd bring them down at a preffered landing
site. 

The shuttle doesn't have a lot of flexibility in selecting a landing
site once it starts the de-orbit burn, or if it fails to acieve orbit.

But if it *has* to, it can land at any decent sized airport. It just
needs a reasonably long runway, oriented in something approximating the
proper direction. And modern navigational aids help (though the shuttle
doesn't have some of the most common, and almost wasn't fitted with
*any* non-military/NASA nav-aids until the astronauts objected
*loudly*)

That's why G. Harry Stine wrote "Shuttle Down". He was pointing out the
fact that NASA's contigency planning had *huge* holes in it. He choose
to take a "worst case", namely go with then still possible idea of
shuttle launches from Vandenberg. This was (and still *is*) a good
idea, because you can't easily get into true polar orbits from the
Cape. The allowable launch paths don't angle enough to the south. 

But with a Vandenberg launch, the *only* possible abort site other than
once around is Easter Island. Which presents a *world* of problems.
Many of which apply to *any* site outside the US. 

Examples: The 747 that carries the Shuttle back to Kennedy only has a
range of 3000 miles. And *no* fittings for midair refueling. That'll
make returning from any non-US landing *really* interesting. 

The Shuttle does not carry an airworthiness certificate (required by
international law for *all* aircraft). It does not cary licenses for
the radio transmitters on board. The crew do not carry passports. Any
one of these could result in the confiscation of the Shuttle and the
detainment of the crew if the government of the country it lands in
wants to get picky.

Oh yeah, the OMS system (steering jets) uses *highly* toxic chemicals.
As in a leak after landing could wipe out a small city. 

And a *real* capper. Due to lack of on-board cooling capability, the
crew *must* leave the shuttle immediately after touchdown. At the
normal touchdown sites, there's a rollup "ladder, and gear to force
cool air thru the ship. At anyplace else, they'll have to wait for the
ship to cool on it's own. But once it's cooled, they''l have to dig up
a *ladder* to get back into the ship!

Can't you just picture it though? The Shuttle makes the landing, the
crew drops out of the hatch, and then later, they can't get back in? 
You can't use a ldder that leans against the hull, because that'd
damage tiles. You need a free-standing boarding ramp of some sort. But
most aren't adjustable. They're built to match standard aircraft, and
the Shuttle hatch is at the wrong height!

Stine suggested that they could easily afford the "extra" weight of one
of those roll-up ladders such as are sold for emergency escapes from
homes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:22:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Zho/Vilani crossbreeding (was Re: Ewwww.....)

In mail you write:

> Clif posted:
>>
>> When a Vilani and a Zhodani mate, how does the child turn
>> out? At half Psi, or what?
>
> Per the CT Alien Supplement on the Zhos, psi ability is
> *not* genetic. One could easily have a non-psi child
> born of two psi parents and vice versa. I never could
> figure that one out.

It's probably a complex involving so many genes that heritability is a
nightmare to map *when* you know what genes to track. 

Also, if psi *is* hereditary, you quickly wind up with Darkover during
the "Age of Chaos". If you aren't familar with Darkover, picture a
planet settled by a misjumping colony ship. The planet has deposits of
a crystal with psi amplification properties.

Over the centuries, the colonists develop psi to a fine art, and since
it *is* obviously hereditary, they started breeding to enhance existing
types and to conserve any new types that showed up. They even did some
psi-based genetic engineering. 

They developed a *psi* based technology that has to be equivalent to
around TL-12 to 16. And they fought terrible wars. Which led to
breeding people as weapons and other serious abuses. They barely
survived that phase of their history. 

Anyway, Zhodani culture would almost *have* to follow that sort of path
if psi was clearly inheritable. And it's been done. :-)

Darkover as a *planet* can be fun. As a stellar empire it's a bit much.

One example of the "fun" is the off-worlders who don't understand *why*
Darkover has the "Compact". VBasicly a law to the effect that no
weapons that operate beyond arms reach or that don't expose the
attacker to retaliation by the victim are allowed. So swords are
common, and arrows are only used for hunting and (rarely) against
outlaws. 

It all seems so primitive. And the offworlders *assume* that this is
some silly code of honor thing. Until the day they get caught up in
local politics and an artifact from the Age of Chaos resurfaces. After
seeing just what a psi weapon can be like (as I recall they lost a good
chunk of a starport), they suddenly decided that these "primitives"
weren't so primitive. And fell all over themselve to ensure that the
Compact was kept. 

Of course, a couple generations later the offworld authorities have
convinced themselves that the old reports had to be exaggerations. And
things start to get ugly again.

Rather a fun way to teach players that there may be *other*
technologies, based on quite different principles than ours, but just
as powerful. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:26:03 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Milieu E21: Spaceports

Ok, I think you made a good point: fewer starports, placed
by a more complex rationale, makes the starports more
interesting and doesn't dilute the idea of the spaceport being
somewhat unique.

It also looks like several sites can actually be agreed upon
with less fuss than I thought.  Here's my list so far of sites
that haven't gotten a lot of flak:

Top Quality

Kourou, French Guyana
Kennedy Center, FL (US)
Kagoshima, Japan
Shuang Chen Tzu, PRC
White Sands, US
Tyuratam, Kazakhstan
Frankfurt/Rhein-Main, EC

Middle Quality

New Guinea
Rio de Janiero, Brazil
Chek Lap Kok, HK (PRC)
Sydney, Australia
Tokyo, Japan
Peterson AFB, CO (US)
Beijing, PRC
JFK, NY (US)
Moscow/Sheremetyevo, Russia

Lowest Quality

3 x Ecliptic High Earth Orbit "Transfers"
Bombay, India
Equatorial High Earth Orbit "Transfer"
Capetown/Gateway, S. Africa
High Inclination High Earth Orbit "Transfer"


- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:31:02 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Pranks

This is an old navy prank.

When we get the new kid on ship, we have the week long mind game, by telling
him that buggery is legal after 7 day at sea. I been on ships where the
cox'n gets into the game by issuing KY gel to the kids on the morning of the
7th day.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:34:12 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

>ObTrav, is there and way to build a practical anti-grav tank mine.?  I was
>thinking some sort of one shot plasma weapon, with low-cost passive sensors
>for acquisition and a basic comm net to coordinate attacks .   How cheap
>can you make a grav sensor?


I've always thought that the contragravity and thruster plates are,
themselves, a vulnerability.  IMTU - they *must* be exposed to be effective
(and that means unarmored.)  Any vehicle relying on contragravity tends to
go to ground in a combat situation, rather than permit open shots at it's
plates.  Of course, this does leave it open to ground based weapons (mines),
but one *hopes* to be high enough to avoid damage from those.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:49:59 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Vampires In Traveller

Jeff Zeitlin wrote :-
> I also seem to recall reading about a genetic condition that made
> a person extremely intolerant of UV, to the point where the
> person could have holes eaten in their skin through exposure to
> ordinary sunlight.  This could easily be used as a hook into
> other "vampire" stories.
> - --

This too is one of the many types of porphyria.

The porphyrias as a group of disorders have a common pathophysiology :-
disordered metabolism of porphyrin rings, which hold the iron atom in
haemoglobin (among other things). 

Different genetic errors result in aberrant synthetic and degradative
enzymes being produced, and the accumulation of various intermediate
compounds.

Accumulated porphyrin degradation products in the variant Jeff has
described above are extremely photosensitive.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:50:52 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Brain children having children

> Clif wrote:
> Anyway, I'm wondering about the offspring of two characters...
> 

[example snipped]

Recent research in developmental biology (embryology) suggests that
brain development
is heavily influenced by maternal genes, while the rest of the body is
influenced by the paternal contribution.

This obviously considers 'genetic potential' only, not environmental
factors.

Logically then, Western society has it all upside down. Brilliant women
should be having children with dull 'himbos'.....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:24:19 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Ships (nee GURPS Traveller Vehicles)

After much consternation and grumbling from the masses, I have 
decided to rename the program to something more in line with what 
it really is.  I never claimed to be a marketing guru.

However, GURPS Traveller Vehicles is now called GURPS 
Traveller Ships.

There is a new version up at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

This one has quite a few enhancements and a few more bug fixes.  

Enhancements:

The Repository - A special little db to store non-standard systems 
in.  Currently there is support for Bridges, Manuever Drives, 
Engineering Spaces and Utility Modules.  They are all accessible 
from within the appropriate dialog boxes.  You can substitute any of 
these non-standard systems in place of the ones that are specified 
in GT.  All your existing ship files should still work.  The Repository 
is currently filled with testing modules that I created to test the 
program.  You may delete them without fear of losing anything.  
When you have your own designed, input it and then use it.

Ability to clamp the ship's Acceleration and the number of modules 
fluxuate with the rest of the ship design.

Ability to clamp the ship's Jump Rating and the number of modules 
fluxuate with the rest of the ship design.

Renamed User Defined to Other.

Separated the Manuever Drive from the Jump Drive dialog box.  It 
was getting TOO crowded.

Removed the Fuel Tank from the Aux Jump Engine.

Fixes:

- - Sealing Cost fix 
- - Nuclear Damper Cost fix 
- - Sand Cannister Cost fix 
- - Removed appropriate "Other" total volume from Total Ship 
Volume (it looked like there was more volume allocated than there 
actually was.) 
- - Removed Hull Mounted weapons from Surface Area calculations. 
- - Reversed Empty Mass and Loaded Mass Labels 

Well, I hope you like it.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:49:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Evolution

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>I recall a sci-fi short story where a scout team included a human, a pair
>of avian humanoids and a dolphin-like alien. The dolphinoid was great
>friends with the human, and there was a bit where the dolphinoid wanted
>to take the relationship to another level. He'd heard of people who had
>learned the difficult art of becoming sexually intimate with other
>intelligent
>beings, and the idea interested him, but he had no idea how to ask the 
>human if she would be interested or not. Though they were friends, the
>cultural gap was as strong as the biological one.

That was in Analog. There were several stories with those characters. I
think the polity was call the Concord, but I'm not certain. Neat case of
worldbuilding.

IIRC they did become intimate in the final story.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:49:42 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Pranks

Wayne Ewart wrote:
> 
> This is an old navy prank.
> 
> When we get the new kid on ship, we have the week long mind game, by telling
> him that buggery is legal after 7 day at sea. I been on ships where the
> cox'n gets into the game by issuing KY gel to the kids on the morning of the
> 7th day.

I met a yeoman once who claimed to have pulled an even nastier prank on
some FNGs.  Once the ship was at sea (so the story goes), he would
complete inprocessing the newbies.  He would ask them, "Are you straight
or gay?"  Since this was before "don't ask, don't tell", the newbies
would generally answer that they were straight.  At this point, the
yeoman would assume a worried expression.  When the newbies would ask
what was wrong, the yeoman would proceed to inform them that, due to
some kind of foul-up, they had accidentally been assigned aboard a "gay"
ship.  Since the "error" had not been caught prior to the ship putting
to sea, the yeoman didn't know how long it would take to rectify the
situation....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #242
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 3 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 243



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

21C Traveller Mileiu
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
21C Theory
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 
Re: The rest of the Story (TM)
RE: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Published versions of the Donosev
Re: Pranks
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Cultural Differences
The "Evolution" thread.
Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium (was Re: Evolution)
Re: Brain-children Having Children
Re: Evolution
Re: Brain-children Having Children
Re: Mingling the Species
Re: Evolution
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Request for Linguistic assistance
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:53:14 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: 21C Traveller Mileiu

Exactly how many people are working on 21C/nth instersteller war
campaigns?

   I've been working on one since about 1982 with a hiatus between
'89-93 (when I was shooting-up Mega- Traveller & 2300AD like evey other
addict). I began working on the semi-new "3rd Millenium" project of mine
when I got an interesting, but terse e-mail from a person of GDW vintage
that 2300AD was dead, dead, dead. That was before I discovered
2300AD@mpgn.com. I had bent my 2300AD campaign into  21C Traveller after
no one expressed a visible interest in my neck of the woods (Tidewater,
VA, land of the Great Campaign Headquarters and Mark "GEO" Gelinas) for
2300AD. Withe the resurgence of 2300AD on the net, I've
'frankensteined"  the ole AD camapign and spun off a 21C one. Now
neither one looks or smells like the other. I'd be interested in
communicating with those 'near-futurenauts' on campaign background and
history. I love 21C technology and weaponry, but I'm not a person who
sleeps with his "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" under my pillow. Actually, I
sleep with G: Ultratechnology and the 2300AD Equipment Guide on a small
altar next to my Pagan Publishing Material, the Supplements That Cannot
Be Named. {IMOP, D*l*TA GR**N makes the X-Files tame by comparison, and
has inspired some bizarre tweaking of my Gurps, 2300AD, and Traveller
backgrounds as well as some severe altogether disturbing nightmares.}
WARNING: Read it with the light on, and never repeat any name in it
three times verbally!

Cthulu Traveller! What an idea! It explains where the "Old One's" I mean
"Ancients" came from.


MAY DAY!
MAY DAY!
SOS! SOS!

SIGNAL GK!

THIS IS THE FREE TRADER BEOWULF
WE ARE IN DISTRESS.......#@#$>>**&(&^...

......IA! IA! IA! CTHULU FTHTANG R'YLEH!
CTHULU! CTHULU! IA! IA!
..........{End of Transmisssion}.......


Sweet Dreams, MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:15:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

At 07:53 PM 02/03/99 +0000, you wrote:
>misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
>>	I have two in my Traveller campaign... which are the only ones who
>>got out of the several hundred in my Cyberpunk campaign...  However, with
>>the advent of plasma-temp weapons (hafla and worse), Vampires in any sf
>>game I run keep very quiet and try not to be too obnoxious about there
>>depredations.
>
>The CP2020 Alternative reality sourcebook 'Night's Edge' had some
>interesting ideas on vampires in orbit/space, and the ensuing problems.
>
>There again, the CP2020 Deep Space Supplement is the best 'space
>environment' book that Traveller never had. IMO it beats G: Space hands
>down.
>
>Dom
>

        In point of fact, I considered using the Deep Space book and the
CP2020/ FNFF Rules to run a "Traveller" game...  Then I went back to my CT
books and fell in love again...  =)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:23:14 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: 21C Theory

"My theory which is mine is mine" (Missz Anne Elk)

THEORY: Grandfather imparted a genetic memory, an irrational
wet-your-pants, scream at the top-of-yer-lungs fear of solomani in the
Vilani way way back. This explains why they were so easy to defeat in
the "N"th Intersteller Wars and why over several thousand years never
even ran into us homicidal terrans not even with a misjump! The Vilani
not discovering us or our media transmissions ranks with the "Vegan
Tyranny" not discovering Earth in Classic Trek (whose history doesn't
exist in the Berman "Yeech!" ST).

The poor Viliani reguarded us with the same fear and loathing that we
have when we run into on a lonely road in New Mexico a sign "Warning:
Intensely Radioactive Zone Ahead". We scare the gruntbugglies out of
'em! In fact they're so scared its like when you  have arachnophobia and
are just too 'white' with fear to stomp on the tiny eight-legged
disgusting bastard. We're the nighmares the Shuggilli used to frighten
small children round the fireside. The terrans were to the Vilani what
the dreaded *NACH!, the smart barbarian, is to the Kafers of 2300AD.
BTW, I also think the MECHs the UN Marine used on 51 Pegasai 2114
reminded them too much of those not-forgotten boogie-man. the dreaded,
long dead, Grandfathers lil XMAS toy, the 500M Warbot. Four thousand
years later and the Vilani are still trying to change all their
underpants! Only in the past thousand years of interbreeding have the
vilani overcome this genetic memory. If only the Terran/Solomani could
get over the little fear put into them by Grandfather of everything
pyschic.

HLG (Huge Lop-sided Grin) Musashi

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:18:46 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW 

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>

> > Some of you have been suggesting that it will be easy for Zhodani
> > interrogators to get information out of Imperial prisoners
> > telepathically.  Remember that using Telepathy will cost you Psionic
> > Strength points therefore you will not be able to use it for the > > full interrogation. 

> Nothing prevents the Zhodani from using an interrogation *team.* 
> Three skilled telepaths, and you're done.

Nothing prevents it except for the probable lack of the three skilled
telepaths who do not have something better to do.  Psionic Zhodani will
be officers, by definiton, and may have other duties to perform as
well.  Only about half of psionic Zhodani will be telepathic, the rest
will have other talents.  Remember that Zhodani charecter generation
includes the Non-Verbal Communication skill and more frequently grants
the Psychology skill so even non Telepathic Zhodani may be more capable
of conducting information gathering than the average Imperial.

Are you the _only_ prisoner that the Zhodani have captured?

I could see the use of teams on apparently important Imperial prisoners
but in general it seems unlikely.

Some versions of Traveller rules make psionics more difficult between
species.  If true IYTU this might mean that in Spinward Marches military
units non humans may have slightly higher clearance on average then
humans as it will be harder for the Zhodani to read their minds.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:03:57 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The rest of the Story (TM)

> Full story goes like this.  An M1 from 24th Infantry Div bogged down during

Gotcha.  You know I think I've heard bout that incident, though I don't recall
any of the unit names, etc.  Definately seem to recall the hits against the
tank, and the firing through the berm parts.  Kinda thought that last was just
scuttlebut, though.  Didn't hear bout the scrapping of the tank, either.

> BTW: after the ammo panels blew out, they put a round in the gun of the
> stuck tank, and fired it ... successfully.  The sights were out of whack,
> but the gun itself was intact.

Just need to damage the breech.  The gun tube itself doesn't matter.

> ObTrav, is there and way to build a practical anti-grav tank mine.?  I was
> thinking some sort of one shot plasma weapon, with low-cost passive sensors
> for acquisition and a basic comm net to coordinate attacks .   How cheap
> can you make a grav sensor?

Original FF&S had Gravitic Displacement as a possible substitution for Contra
Grav, which had interesting possiblilities for mines.  Might say that some
kind of device/specialized sensor can pick up CG/AG emissions maybe.  After
all, isn't their workings (for T4 anyways) that they "push" off the planet or
something?  How would the FF&S conception interact?  Should be some way it
affects the enviornment around it, which might be detectable and respondable
by a directed missile/tac nuke/explosion/one-shot laser, etc.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:20:11 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

I was not very clear, by 'going to ground' I actually meant go to Nap of 
Earth mode.  Contra-grav fighting vehicles should never give up their 
mobility.

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Douglas Glatz[SMTP:douglas@teleport.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, March 02, 1999 6:34 PM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

>ObTrav, is there and way to build a practical anti-grav tank mine.?  I was
>thinking some sort of one shot plasma weapon, with low-cost passive 
sensors
>for acquisition and a basic comm net to coordinate attacks .   How cheap
>can you make a grav sensor?


I've always thought that the contragravity and thruster plates are,
themselves, a vulnerability.  IMTU - they *must* be exposed to be effective
(and that means unarmored.)  Any vehicle relying on contragravity tends to
go to ground in a combat situation, rather than permit open shots at it's
plates.  Of course, this does leave it open to ground based weapons 
(mines),
but one *hopes* to be high enough to avoid damage from those.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:36:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Published versions of the Donosev

>      4.   _Traveller: The New Era_ rulebook, GDW, 1993, p375. B&W ship pic,
> TNE stats. Size changed to 600 tons - is this errata?
>      5.   _Brilliant Lances Technical Booklet_, GDW, 1993. Repeats the TNE
> rulebook page, including the 600 tons change. BL ship counter included in

I noticed that awhile back.  I was thinking it might have something to do w/
the deckplans being out of wack, so I recently asked the resident Deck Plans
expert, GypsyComet, and he said he hadn't checked the Donosev (IIRC), but that
alot of volume could be in the frame.  Anyone done an analysis on the DGP
deckplans?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:55:11 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Pranks

>>We dressed up like the Orderly Officer and the Duty  NCO, and marched
>>into the female barracks at 1pm, and yelled "SNAP INSPECTION" and with
>>appropriate swearing and yelling got them all standing to attention.
>
>Isn't impersonating a commissioned officer a Federal Offense?  A sure court
>martial?

Of course. Though, as we were in the New Zealand forces, it wasn't a
Federal offence

Also, if we had been caught, as we were on recruit course we would
likely only have been charged with being in the female barracks,
disproving an impersonation charge in such a situation wold have been
too easy.

>>At this point the lights were still off, so they couldn't see us.
>
>So dressing up was needless?

Slight mis-description, they couldn't see who we were or the details,
but they could see our forms, thus we needed the SD coats and hats to
give the right shape.

>> We then marched to the end of the dormitory, took a single flash
>>photograph,  said "Thank you, ladies" and leapt out the end window
>>before they could get us.
>
>I'm surprised you could find your way.  I took a picture at night
with a
>flash when in a foxhole and was pretty well blinded, wondering if I
had
>permanently ruined my eyesight.

Then you should have closed your eyes first, like we did.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:58:43 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

>Ob; Trav... here's a new one for the Traveller culture wars;...cultural takes
>on age and youth....

It's called  "Logan's  Run"

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:04:17 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #236

>>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>>Florida.
>>Florida is the prefered site now.
>>Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
>>Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other
>>Charles
> I think there are several more, from what I have heard they get into worse
>choices as you go down.  When they were starting to fly the shuttle
>McConnel AFB in Wichita, Kansas was discussed as one of the alternate
>landing sites.  Supposedly they would open the gates into Raytheon and
>combine the runway.

Actually most of the back up sites are in other parts of the world,
because as you know the Shuttle has no power on landing, and they may
not be able to make it all the way round the planet to the US.

Ones I know of are the RAF base on Christmas Island,  and Auckland
Airport New Zealand.
They would have preferred an airforce base, but our biggest one can
only just land a 747, US C5's usually land at Christchurch Airport, a
civilian airport.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:17:03 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

>Along the lines of the infamous "can of track tension"? gags?
>
>Blank adaptor for a laser rifle
>Assigning newbie to sensor watch in jump (see if he actually shows
up)
>Send new guy to get the combat armor air fresheners
>In the motor pool, send new guy to requistion the wrench to tighten
the
>grav tank trnasmission.
>
>I got sent to find the blank adapter for the M-203.  Which is a
grenade
>launcher.  D'oh!

Add sending them for a bucket of prop-wash or a glass rivet.

(but be careful, there are actually glass rivets... )


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:38:28 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Cultural Differences

>>You know what a kiwi looks like ?
>
>  Yes. You'd rather discuss gun control or liberal scum vs
quasi-fascists? :)

Nope, just thought I'd make sure

>>It's hard to imagine a foot tall, hairy-feathered, flightless bird
>>with poor daylight eyesight and a beak that's designed only to suck
>>small insects out of the humus being considered viscious. Especially
>>as they don't run in packs.
>
>  Nice try - I've heard about the new Killer Penguins in GURPS, and I
figure
>if I carry some kiwi fruit _and_ the herrings I'll have full evasive
capability.

Well, here's another bit of trivia for you, the kiwi fruit isn't eaten
by kiwis. They actually fill the same ecological niche as the
"anteater" and similar creatures.

The kiwi fruit is actually what used to be called the chinese
gooseberry. A clever kiwi marketer noticed that "chinese gooseberies"
didn't sell well in the US, so he changed the name to avoid US
anti-communist sentiment.

However, the concept of a huge "Killer Kiwi" does have "historic"
precedent. The extinct "moa" was an ostrich-like bird of the kiwi
family that grew to some twelve feet IIRC.

It was, however far too easy capture and kill and was just about
completely wiped out by the Maori using spears and pits prior to the
arrival of Europeans.

Ob Trav: We've had the "Grendel" idea, where the arrival of humans on
a new world disrupts the ecology in a rather dangerous way, has anyone
had an adventure where the native creatures are just too easy to hunt
and kill ?

Or where they are trying to preserve a rare animal _against_ the
wishes of sentient natives who find them easy food ? Or represent an
importrant part of some adolesence ritual ?

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:28:30 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: The "Evolution" thread.

Fellow sentients,

May I commend the members of TML on continuing a thread containing the
word "Evolution", that not only contains useful biological
information, but also a calm discussion of inter-species sex, some
mildly prurient humour, and more importantly contains no arguments
about the concept of evolution and it's "disagreement" with certain
religious tracts

Other than in moderated sci groups, I have not seen this latter
achieved before.

Congratulations & Well done.

Frankie.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:54:29 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium (was Re: Evolution)

Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote

> > Although it's a touchy subject, what do race relations look like in 
> the Traveller universe?

> Racism is very much a part of the OTU.  The whole Major/Minor Race
> classification system, especially since this includes minor human 
> races, not just BEMs, is institutional racism. 

Yes.

> How do the powers that be in the Imperium keep a MHR minor?  They are
> restricted for the most part to their homeworlds, or at best a 
> 'cultural region'.  Occasionally you see them farther from home, but 
> it would be unusual.  You don't see huge numbers of worlds colonized 
> by Vegans, Virushi, or Syleans.

Remember that minor human races are minor in numbers as well.  Sevety
five billion Darmine (75,000,000,000) are a drop in the bucket compared
to fifteen trillion (15,000,000,000,000) sophonts in the Imperium for
example.  Most minor races will probably have populations that are, at
best, in the billions so ther are not enough if them to colonize a
number of worlds even absent the institutionalized racism of the whole
major race/minor race bit.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 00:00:19 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> Concievably, two ugly folks
> could combine traits to produce Cindy Crawford.

"Igor, pass me the test tube with the supermodel DNA."

"Yesss, Masster."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 00:15:54 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote

> (But am I the only one who finds Pamela [Anderson] repulsive ...?)

For me she has gone beyond repulsive to actually nauseating.

I don't like blondes, or blonds, in general but the way she has had
herself rebuilt is truely scary.

ObTrav: TNE's FFS1 had a chapter on Cyberpunk implants (as alternative
tech).  Cyberwear had two versions hard (obvious cyberwear) and soft
(hidden cyberwear).  Hard cyberwear was usually 2 or 3 TL's lower 7 was
often cheaper.  Obviously Pamela got the hard version.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 00:25:28 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Brain-children Having Children

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> Then there are things like sex-linked genes....

Not to raise a spelling nitpick but I believe you should have said
sex-linked _jeans_ not genes, Leonard.  I know that when I help someone
with their jeans it is usually linked to sex....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 00:53:51 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Mingling the Species

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote

> Or maybe it would be as homosexuals _claim_ [emphasis added], that 
> they always had a hankering to hold the paw of a vargr instead of a 
> human female?  That they were born that way? 

Some people might think that your use of the word _claim_ implies a
certain lack of belief in said statements.  A more value neutral version
might be _say_ not claim. Claim can be interpreted as your expressing
doubt in their statements.  Some people might interpret this as your
implying that they are lying or deluded when they suggest that their
sexual orientation was predetermined, not chosen.  Some people get
offended when other people imply this sort of thing.  Since we know that
no one on the TML would wish to inadvertantly offend others it might be
desireable to reduce the use of the world claim when describing what
others have said.  This is true even when, or perhaps especially when,
such statements involve controversial topics.

For example:

Pro choice lobby claims they do not kill babies. Germans claim they are
not all Nazis.  Italian Americans claim that most of them do not have
mob ties.  Democrats claim that they are not conspiring to help the UN
take over the US.  Heterosexuals claim that overpopulation is not their
fault.  Vietnam veterans claim they are not all baby killers.

Are all statements that could be interpreted as casting doubt on a claim
in a controversial non Traveller area.  This seems to me to be a bad
thing.

  pnewman@alaska.net		Peter Newman 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
"You mean we have to use separate water fountains, too?!?"
 -Ellen Morgan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:14:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

> That was in Analog. There were several stories with those characters. I
> think the polity was call the Concord, but I'm not certain. Neat case of
> worldbuilding.

> IIRC they did become intimate in the final story.

So, who wrote these stories?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:51:18 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:38:10 -0700, in TML 223
Clayton <arioch@theriver.com> wrote:

<snip>
>To counter this the Imperials would give training to all
>personnel with a security clearance on controlling their
>thoughts.  Maybe even minimal training to all military personnel
>BtC.  This might work to a degree against reading surface
>thoughts but how would the Imperials try to counter the mind
>probes of the Zhodani?
>
>Any thoughts or comments?

While possibly ineffective, in Spinward Marches campaigns I've given
imperiumers and their client states a technique of resisting [Zho'] mind
probe by a process of actively thinking of random and unrelated things.

An interrogation may therefore go like this:

'Name?'
...     [Thinks 'A kilo of sausages, a length of string, wash the tea cup]
'Name?'
...     [Thinks 'A business card from home, the number 7, a red sock]
'Name?' <SLAP>
...Ugh! [Thinks 'Ugh! , Two pink elephants, a porcelain carrot]
'Take this imbecile away, No food or sleep for 12 hours.'

Essentially this technique is viable as long as reading surface thoughts is
done, and ineffective once the subject is exhausted or distressed enough to
loose concentration. Its chief value is in causing the belief that 'we can
resist their [Zho] thought police'. I've run this is a morale effect rather
than a realistic one.

Richard Fields
New Zealand, a small group of islands southwest of California
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:43:20 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Request for Linguistic assistance

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've decided to go with "Direccion General de 
Exportaciones Agricolas de la Confederacion" (thank you Carlos). DGEAC
makes for an interesting abbreviation, but also using Spanish fits with the
history I'm working on.

And to Tommy (and all the other players), I'll be finishing turn 2 of the PBEM
either tommorrow or Friday. Very sorry about the delay, but I got dumped
with four assignments (three worth 15% and one 20%) all due by the end of
the month.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:36:03 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Why not use the B5 approcah were people captured by the Psi Corps would
sing songs, do calculations in their head to avoid scanning.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 06:49:29 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

getting sent to supply to requisition a "skyhook"
or Left Handed Smoke Ejectors
or Tent Jacks
or Reville Oil

I work for a commercial mailing firm
and we sent our new boss out to run errands
and asked her to get a Left Handed Paper Stretcher
she went to 5 different office supply stores and 2
print shops trying to find one. She finally figured
out what was going on when she asked the bulk mail
manager at the local post office, and he about fell 
out of his chair laughing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:49:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Egads! (Re: Racial Cooperation)

At 12:05 02/03/1999, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>At 01:27 PM 3/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Trust me, a great number of us jingoistic Yanks were slack jawed in
>>>disbelief at the end of ID4.  Who knew that every airforce in the world
>>>flew F/A-18s?
>>
>>Not to mention that *very* tough APC that could survive being near ground
>>zero of a nuclear blast, the explosive gasses that conveniently pass by
>>open doorways  in freeway tunnels, the Mac-compliant alien computer
>>systems, etc, etc., ad nauseum (and add nausia).
>
>More ID4 bashing.. when they nuked Houston, anybody else notice they were
>*tracking* the Stealth bomber?  Not overly stealthy if it's emitting a
>signal so the Presidents concerned advisors can watch it's entire run...

Shooting down a city with a sidewinder...

Why worry about using nukes when:
	(a) the target is over a destroyed city
	(b) the target is bigger than the city and when it crashes...

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #243
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 3 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 244



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Evolution
Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Racial Cooperation 
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
Re: GT Adventures
Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)
re: Cultural Differences
High Guard question....officers and ratings
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re : Brain children having children
Re: Evolution
Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?
First Contact campaigns...
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:56:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Evolution

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" wrote:

> Joseph and John Snead did something on the Suerrat... anybody 
> ever did anything on the Cassildans? I don't even know if their 
> homeworld has been established.

Harold Hale's been doing some work on them for his TNE Solomani Rim work.
IHTU they're from Aldebaran Sector.

Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:48:52 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

First off, I would like to thank each and every one of you who have
responded to my posts in the past (Thank you, thank you, thank you... ad
nauseum)

Apparently some Hollyweird film co has decided to make a film about the
capture of the 'Enigma' code machine from a German U-Boat by an American
destroyer into a film - the only problem is that it was a British convoy
escort that did the dirty deed.

Reminds me of the story that someone trashed a cinema (movie theatre) when
someone in the audience happened to mention that Titanic sank...  Seems like
the guy was a bit put out that someone let slip the ending - like maybe Leo
and Kate would get to live happily ever after instead.
Oh, and it now appears that there may have been a burgeoning romance between
a Purser and a Lady passenger, shades of Leo & Kate...

ObTrav:  Suppose someone starts overwriting Imperial Archives; how would
they be caught?  How long would it take before the 'revised' version was
accepted as 'canon'?

Finally, the 'Ground' Burst in ID4 was an *Air* Burst, the APC was on the
far side of the Alien ship, and the Stealth Bomber had it's Transponder
switched on and squaking a civvie code in case the aliens tracked it - the
US Forces knew it was Stealth and not a Korean Air B747 slightly off
course...  Oh, and I believe the F/A18 Hornet is a Navy/Marine Corps bird
rather than Air Force, IIRC (although the British Government has recently
amalgamated the entire UK Harrier/Sea Harrier inventory as an RAF
package...)

Keep the Flame!
Jeff R.
"It's not a question of whose habitat it is - it's how hard you hit it!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:20:46 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

Gary (et al)

The story I mentioned about the stuck M1 is from the Gulf War (have M1's
been used anywhere else??) I initially heard from a friend at work interestd
in such things - so I put it down to a slight case of exageration ( I agree
about the 'grenades in the turret basket' method of tank destruction).  But
then I read it in Tom Clancy's "Armored Warfare", pages 57 & 58, so figured
that if *Tom Clancy* is prepared to put his name to it then it must have a
grain of truth...

Keep the Flame!
Jeff R.
"I'd prefer sometihng with much longer arms." - ZB3
"But which is quite incapable of drinking coffee?" AD


The original Reply follows...
- -----Original Message-----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 02 March 1999 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot


>> On the subject of the M60 and M1, a story I heard had an M1 stuck in a
>> mudhole with a bunch of angry natives on the warpath; two M88 Recovery
>
>Must be some bunch of angry natives, even using the tank as a bunker,
should
>still have some respectable firepower... especially if there are others
>nearby.
>
>> vehicles had completely failed to pull the M1 free so it was decided to
blow
>> it up rather than let the locals get their mucky paws on it.
>> TWO M1 shots failed to penetrate the hull armor, so a third climbed up
the
>> hill and shot into the top of the turret.  *Unfortunately* the ammo only
>> blew the blowout panels off.
>
>Hmm...  The prescribed method for "destroying" a tank, should it have to be
>abandoned, is to use the 8 thermite grenades deployed with each tank.  Put
one
>in the breech block, one over the batteries, shoot... that's all I can
>remember for sure.  Others are probably for the radios, fire control
system,
>ammunition compartment (through the blow off panels), engine, and
gun/turret
>drive...  It renders the tank useless since it won't be able to move or
shoot.
>Using another tanks main gun is going to run into the measures designed
>against enemy main guns and would be the last resort.
>
>I expect if there were "angry natives on the warpath" (and presumably
nearby)
>other tanks would be shooting at these natives rather than at the friendly
>tank they hope to destroy rather than have captured.  And lastly, they'll
>should've known where to shoot the tank if they wanted to (the rear not the
>front and once the blow off panels are off, again w/ a direct shot, so you
can
>wreck the inside of the front of the turret, and the main gun), though
>assumign they're closer than one click, its gonna do some serious damage,
>though a hull hit won't "blow up" the tank, even if the fuel goes up
(you'll
>just blow up the engine and fuel tanks).  The things to disable/destroy are
>main gun, the engine and the radios.
>
>> By then two more M88s had arrived and the four pulling together freed the
>> tank.  The turret was replaced and shipped home for examination, the tank
>> was repaired and sent back into action.
>
>The M88 sucks for an M1 recovery vehicle.  It's far too light.  I've
>personally witnessed them towing an Abrams on hardball and losing control.
>And (urgh) I have been stuck in the mud.  It only took 1 M88, but also bout
20
>Marines and a bulldozer (which in a deployed situation would be another
M88).
>Congress shot down the General Dynamics recovery vehicle, though I havne't
>heard the fate of the proposed replacement (consisting of an M1 chassis w/
the
>accessories from the IIRC).  My unit just got a brand new M88, though. : |
>
>> +ObTrav; how do you free a stuck G-tank?  (How do you **STICK** a G-tank
in
>> the first place??)  Possibly a higher-tech, undercover, force manages to
get
>> a tank bogged on a world they're not supposed to be on; how do you get it
>> out without letting the locals see your nice little spaceship?
>
>Some sort of CG/AG "nullification field" or something.  Yeah, sounds like
I've
>been watching too much Star Trek, but shouldn't it be possible for certain
>conditions (excepting hte obvious: malfunction and damage) to disable
Contra
>Grav/Anti Gravity?
>
>> Nasty tricks for new arrivals?  Send 'em out for Long Weights,
Left-handed
>> Screwdrivers, or green and brown camo paint; let 'em fix test kit costing
>> loadsamoney then stand behind 'em - with two metal trays - when they
power
>> it up after fixing it - the list just goes on and on...
>
>All the tanks are online except one, by a small margin, so you tell the
newbie
>to go behind it and push and you'll put the tank in neutral (despite the
fact
>it's 68 tons).
>Also to find a "roadwheel pressure gauge."  The funniest I've heard of is
to
>get a BFA for the 120mm main gun.  The mech's have a gigantic replica of
the
>one used on the M16A2, for some reason (though what I have no idea), and
>somehow someone actually got it in the main gun.  That sucker must've
weighed
>a ton, too.  Also, I've witnessed a newbie sent to get an "E8 Prick
Bigmouth
>wrench" from the Master Sgt and watch him blow up in mock anger,
frightening
>the hell out of the newbie.  Also works on Gunny's and Staff Sgts, though I
>don't know anyone even dumb enough to use it on their Sgt Major or First
Sgt.
>Hmm...
>
>
>Gary
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:41:30 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation 

TravelrTNE@aol.com sent:

>Eamon said:

>> Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
>> steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence

>There was a Brits scene?  I remember the Israelis and what I think was
>supposed to be Russians and Chinese, but don't remember any Brits.  Um...
>what's that stereotype anyways?  I didn't see any Austin Powers teeth or
>anything...  That's the only Brit stereotype I know of.

There was a scene in Iraq with some Bertie Wooster clones chatting to some
Iraqis before setting off in their RAF F-16s (!) to prang some aliens.
I've heard they tailor movies to the various markets - maybe this was a 
version for us Brits, talk about badly targetting an audience! The other
explaination is I did another slide and watched the movie in another
universe ;-) 

>> Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse
>>by

>That's a little overreacting, no?  :-)  *That* would be the US beating
>the aliens and then conquering the rest of the planet (or at least the
>rest of "our" hemisphere).  ;-)

I think it was the fact that the invasion occured for jingoistic purposes
on July 4th.


>Derek wrote:

>> My favorite scenes in the movie was the shot in the desert and the 
>>other "locations around the world" shots.  It gave a brief sence of the 
>>global totality of this disaster.

>Me 2, though it's probably more likely that alien ship would've landed 
>*on* the Pyramids and flattened it.  And that the alien ship would've
>landed *on* Area 51, flattening/caving it in, mostly.  Etc etc.

I was kinda hoping that there'd be some sort of seismic wave from all
those saucer crashes (They are supposed to be 10 miles wide after all).
I'd have loved to end the movie with the heros looking at the wreck of the
ship, then noticing some wave-like effect moving towards them, a quick 'Oh
S***' - then darkness. Muhhahahahah! OBTRAV: pesky aliens must have left
their CG on!

>To effectively add the "foreign effect" would've meant adding significant
>footage (and sfx) to the movie (probably double for a "good" treatment).
>Since the movie is focused on the invasion over the US, for a US audience
>who just wouldn't be interested in what the aliens did on the other side
>of the globe, it would've been kinda superfluous to have that footage, I
>think, though different foreign "editions" from different viewpoints, as
>someone suggested, would've been pretty cool.  

Yeah, or just introducing a foreign task force to get the other nations in
on it.

>Non Americans on the list seem almost unanimous in their contempt (much
>like the Americans, too, it seems).  How did the box office numbers do in
>Europe and Canada, anyone?  IIRC it did pretty good here, though i don't
>remember for sure... 

It did pretty well over here - though I think there were a lot of ladies
watch because Will Smith was in it. Put me off Devlin and Emmerlich for
good - thank god, meant i missed Godzilla. 

On a related note - Star Trek: Insurrection did far better in Europe than
the US. Are we getting the bad taste/no sense bug?

OBTRAV: PCs land on a planet which *loves* an imported spy show, which
just happens to be made on the homeworld of one or more of the characters.
Natives are continually speaking to the PC with show catchphrases, asking
them about the program (virtually unknown at home), being invited to Fan
Cons, and getting hassled by incoherent drunks in bars. Any disrespect
could be dangerous - and might lead to a 'jolly good thrashing!'.

Eamon Watters.

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:33:29 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:41:51 -0400 Michel Vaillancourt
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>        "I need a bucket of prop-wash" is another common request.....
>
>        --Michel
==========

My personal favorite was;

"Go get me a fathom of flight line......"

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:21:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> > Being wildly unsuited for military service, I did this on a bet; I have no
> > idea where the other bettor's idea came from.  It wasn't mine,
> > unfortunately.
> > 
> Is that actually "wildly unsuited", or would it be more accurate to say
> "unsuitably wild"?  ;-)  (If the latter, have you considered a career as
> a US Army interrogator [MOS 97E]?)

A goodly chunk of any interest I might have had in military service was
vaporized by the visit of a navy intelligence recruiter who barged into my
Classical Tibetan class one day to deliver a long clueless spiel about the
importance of Tibetan ports & coastal waters in the defence of the Indian
Ocean against communist encroachment.

Besides, I doubt any of the military intelligence folks take on pierced &
tattooed cross-dressing drug-drug users like me.

And furthermore, if I want to make a career out of screwing with people's
heads and extracting information from them, hell, I'm _in_ academe.  It
doesn't pay quite as good and there's not as much job security, true, but
you've got a lot more operational freedom.
 
> ObTrav: One way to explain a failed survival roll would be to declare 
> that the character was deemed to be unsuited for service in the
> traditional branches.  This does not mean, however, that the character
> is unsuited for service in Intelligence, in the service from which the
> character would otherwise be discharged.

So perhaps they could begin adventuring while on some sort of "detatched
duty", a la the Scouts, under the direction of their service's
intelligence branches?  Interesting idea...

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 17:32:01 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

At 05:42 am 3/2/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>There was a British television series about this  topic called
"Gor", IIRC.
>>>Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
>>>A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm
and then
>>>inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit
>> exceedingly
>>>hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and
strong
>>>man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it
becomes a soap
>>>opera.  I won't ruin it for you.
>>
>> I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )
>
>Slight problem. The average gorilla measures 3 inches when erect.
:-)

	And I wanna shake the hand of the researcher who had the courage to
enter the gorilla cage as Mr and Mrs Hairy were getting it on, and
slap a ruler down at the ... scene ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 17:42:22 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

At 06:32 pm 3/2/99 +0000, you wrote:
> "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
>
>>	Probably my fault. I ordered one of each, and they sent me one of
>>each ... twice. I finally got around to mailing the extras back
>>Friday; sorry for the delay.
>
>Dave,
>
>Any feedback?

	On whether they got the extra back, and sent them to whoever was
waiting? Not yet.

	Oh, feedback about the books! To be honest, I'm on the road so much,
and not currently playing, that I haven't done more than browse
through them. I think some of the 101 Plots entries were a bit
sparse, requiring more effort than the intro of 101 Plots suggests
before they can be used as a "spur-of-the moment" diversion, but good
seeds. I also felt that the descriptions of some of the religions in
101 Religions were just too sparse for me to do anything with, but
then I'm the kind of person who sometimes needs things spelled out a
bit more.

	Having said that, my overall recommendation: they're absolutely
worth having for any referee. The entire series seems to be a
goldmine of nuggets and ideas. Plus, they're the same size as the
LBBs!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:36:21 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course, even this might not be quite as bad as the US soldiers that
couldn't hit Godzilla at 200 meters with a variety of firearms, or the
AH-64D pilots that forgot that they could go *up* when being chased by a
500-foot-tall giant iguana.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've never been a helicopter pilot, but I've enjoyed some games of "Gunship".
"Gunship" is an AH-64 combat flight simulator program, and from what
I've heard it does a reasonable job of presenting the flight characteristics
of an AH-64 with combat stores aboard.

One thing I noticed was that once you gained some altitude and got
above the ground pressure effect, you often needed some forward
motion to add lift if you wanted to do any serious climbing. The way
the helo's rotors are designed, the spinning rotor assembly generates
more lift moving forward than it does sitting still. With a heavy combat
load, your helo would usually stop climbing at the top of ground pressure
effect until you started moving it forwards.

You turn a helo sharply by tilting it. When you tilt it, you lose lift - the
rotors aren't lifting you upwards as much when they're not oriented "up".
It's quite easy for lift added by forward motion to be canceled out by lift lost 
during sharp turns.

So, we have helos fighting at close range in between skyscrapers. 
Godzilla has a ground speed faster than the helos, they can turn
marginally faster. If they fly straight to gain enough lift to climb out
of reach, Godzilla catches them and eats them. If they make a series
of sharp turns to evade Godzilla, they stay ahead of him but can't climb
out of reach.

Note how short the helo chase scene really was - only a few minutes.
The situation went from "Hunting Big Game" to "Big Game Hunting Us"
very quickly, the Helo pilots didn't have any time to re-evaluate the
situation once they found themselves in danger - and in danger from
an opponent they hadn't been trained to fight.

Not that I think the movie didn't blow lots of details, but this is one that
didn't feel that wrong to me when I saw it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:40:38 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Cultural Differences

SD Mooney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
English		US English
- ---------------------------------------
Pavement		Sidewalk
bumper		fender
boot		trunk (car)
fortnight		?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
fortnight            a couple a' weeks.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 15:07:45 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: High Guard question....officers and ratings

Not being a military person, I thought I'd ask the following:

1) Could someone offer a _rough_ estimate of how many officers are present in the 
ship's troops? For example, in the Command Section, it states that there are 50% 
officers and 50% ratings. I know that this is a grossly inaccurate way of doing it, 
since the actual number of officers would be calculated from the type of troops carried 
(A marine company would have different number than a army regiment which would be 
different than a naval security squad, etc....). But, High Guard is supposed to be 
simple, and I only need an estimate.

2) Are petty officers considered officers as far as quarters and the "Fighting Ships" 
style listings? For example, a ship may be listed as having "7 officers, 20 ratings" in 
the listing - in which category are the POs listed? IMTU, Officers always have a 
stateroom to themselves (whereas ratings are 2 per stateroom). Where should POs be?

3) Finally (and this isn't really military related, but...) are all of the Service 
branch ratings? It doesn't list Officer/PO percentages...

I know the above isn't "official" or canon...I'm just trying to add some flavor to some 
designs of mine...

Thanks for the help...



+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 07:05:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

At 12:36 PM 3/3/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>Why not use the B5 approcah were people captured by the Psi Corps would
>sing songs, do calculations in their head to avoid scanning.

Because the interregator can play games.  He can say "Don't bother trying
to conceal your unit, because you were captured as we were mopping them all
up."  Try not to think of your friends in that situation.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 07:02:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

At 11:48 AM 3/3/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Finally, the 'Ground' Burst in ID4 was an *Air* Burst, the APC was on the
>far side of the Alien ship, and the Stealth Bomber had it's Transponder
>switched on and squaking a civvie code in case the aliens tracked it 

these are the same aliens that are destroying cities one by one?
"Q'tarit!, What are you doing!  That is a civilian vehicle, we can't shoot
at it! Now, finsish devastating this city, we have to go destroy New
Orleans.."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 15:27:39 +0000
From: greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

> Finally, the 'Ground' Burst in ID4 was an *Air* Burst, the APC was on the
> far side of the Alien ship, and the Stealth Bomber had it's Transponder
> switched on and squaking a civvie code in case the aliens tracked it 

I assumed the aliens did nothing because they knew we didn't have anything
that could hurt them.  (Of course they didn't know about the Powerbook
weilding Jeff Goldblum.)

I can't help picturing the alien's reaction to our use of nuclear weapons
in Mars Attacks.

Greg.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:31:20 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Brain children having children

Robert O'Connor writes:
"Recent research in developmental biology (embryology) 
suggests that brain development is heavily influenced by 
maternal genes, while the rest of the body is influenced 
by the paternal contribution."

	Sounds interesting, could you tell me where you
	got this?

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 15:32:26 +0000
From: greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com
Subject: Re: Evolution

>There was a British television series about this  topic called "Gor", IIRC.
>Very good show, if you can accept a few implausibilities.
>A doctor successfully fertilizes a gorilla egg with his own sperm and then
>inseminated the gorilla.  She gives birth to a human baby, albeit exceedingly
>hairy.  Doctor adopts the baby.  Baby grows into big strapping and strong
>man and joins the Army.  He's got gorilla strength.  Then it becomes a soap
>opera.  I won't ruin it for you.

The series was caled "Chimera".  "Gor" was the nickname of the cross-bred
character.  His name was Gordon, but when he was young, his vocal cords weren't
developed enough for him to pronounce his full name.  All he could manage was
"Gor", and the name stuck.

Greg.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:50:18 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: What's Green and Lives Under Bridges?

In message <36D8D02C.99487678@premier.net>, Black ICE
<wombat@premier.net> writes
>Admittedly, the Hallowe'en discussion on cannibal Vilani was
>entertaining, but that was probably because most of us played it for
>effect.  From what I've heard, the original discussion was a bit more
>heated.

I should hope so - the prospect of an al dente Vilani is not appetising.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:38:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: First Contact campaigns...

From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>

> Exactly how many people are working on 21C/nth instersteller war
> campaigns? 

I am.  My work is focused on the time from First Contact to the 
beginning of the First Interstellar War.  The campaign is called 
"Project: StarRise"

Andrew M-V is working on the Interstellar War period in his work, 
"Prometheus Rising"

And Rob Eaglestone is constructing a pre-Contact focussed E21 Milieu, 
which he has been sharing with us of late.  (Thanks, Rob.)

Each one has it's own variations and spinoffs based on the limited 
canonical information of the time period.

I'd be interested in hearing what you have to share, and exchanging 
info.  It definitely seems to be the latest thing in alternative 
campaign periods.  :)

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:44:29 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Richard Fields writes:
"An interrogation may therefore go like this:

'Name?'
...    [Thinks 'A kilo of sausages, a length of string, 
	wash the tea cup]"


	A brick wall, a brick wall, a brick wall...

	(can you name the movie?)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:38:54 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:
><<SNIP>>
>>To be honest, so would I. I guess some pongo got a lucky shot off.
>>
>>Aetherem Vincere
>>Matt
><<UNSNIP>>
>
>Lucky for whom?

Not the Iraqi, certainly.

>Range was >5.4km, round was APFSDS, target was an Iraqi tank.  As to luck,
>the British armed forces have done as well (if not better ;) ) as their
>Colonial counterparts, but without the benefit of such expensive toys all
>through (modern, admittedly) history.

Hmm, I'd heard it was HESH. I found that strange, too - but the source
seemed good.

>+ObTrav; how do you free a stuck G-tank?  (How do you **STICK** a G-tank in
>the first place??)  Possibly a higher-tech, undercover, force manages to get
>a tank bogged on a world they're not supposed to be on; how do you get it
>out without letting the locals see your nice little spaceship?

Strap lots and lots and lots of grav-belts to it and set them to full?

>Nasty tricks for new arrivals?  Send 'em out for Long Weights, Left-handed
>Screwdrivers, or green and brown camo paint; let 'em fix test kit costing
>loadsamoney then stand behind 'em - with two metal trays - when they power
>it up after fixing it - the list just goes on and on...

Go to stores for a long wait. Oh yes, remember it well. On subs, telling
someone to get permission to blow the TASO is quite good.

(The TASO being the Torpedo & Sonar Officer, and not a tank that you
might want to vent out to sea.)

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #244
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 3 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 245



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT: Hackers...
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Evolution
Re American English
Subject: Re: Published versions of the Donosev
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113
Imperial Policy
RE: High Guard question....officers and ratings
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Imperial Policy
Re: Adventures in Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Freelance Traveller is back!
OT: Comments on SF Book
re: Racial Cooperation
Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings
Re: Milieu E21: Spaceports
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Bradley vs M113

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:27:33 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT: Hackers...

Douglas Glatz wrote:

>>Hackers Reportedly Seize British Military Satellite

[snip]

>>Police said they would not comment as the investigation was at too
>>sensitive a stage. The Ministry of Defense made no
>>comment. 

The MoD denied it.

>ObTrav: This *screams* Traveller adventure plot...

One of the CT Double Adventures (Divine Intervention) had a team playing
silly buggers with a satellite they didn't own.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:20:51 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

In a message dated 3/2/99 11:10:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< Ob; Trav... here's a new one for the Traveller culture
 wars;...cultural takes
 >on age and youth....
 
 It's called  "Logan's  Run"
 
 Frankie >>

Well, I didn't mean it so literally, but I guess LR would make a good
adventure hook...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:36:43 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

David J. Golden
>
>>> I bet lots of women wanted to monkey around with 'im.  : )
>>
>>Slight problem. The average gorilla measures 3 inches when erect.
>:-)
>
>	And I wanna shake the hand of the researcher who had the courage
to
>enter the gorilla cage as Mr and Mrs Hairy were getting it on, and
>slap a ruler down at the ... scene ...

ROFLMAO!! Can you all imagine a group of PCs captured by an unknown
species in an unexplored sector and put into the local equivalent of a
zoo?
What kind of hoops could a cruel, twisted GM force them to jump through?

Come on, people, give me your worst/best.

(Just getting material for my upcoming campaign, Rob.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:42:59 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re American English

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(Another) One in a list of 10000000000000000000000000000000000
Lift =3D Elevator

BAe Harrier  =3D stolen from the Brits  ;)

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:48:19 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Published versions of the Donosev

>>4.   _Traveller: The New Era_ rulebook, GDW, 1993, p375. B&W ship 
>>pic, TNE stats. Size changed to 600 tons - is this errata?
>>5.   _Brilliant Lances Technical Booklet_, GDW, 1993. Repeats the 
>>TNE rulebook page, including the 600 tons change. BL ship counter 
>
>I noticed that awhile back. I was thinking it might have something >to 
do w/ the deckplans being out of wack, so I recently asked the >resident 
Deck Plans expert, GypsyComet, and he said he hadn't >checked the 
Donosev (IIRC), but that alot of volume could be in the >frame.  Anyone 
done an analysis on the DGP deckplans?
>
>Gary

Couldn't this be because of the need for (lots of) reaction mass in TNE?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them." 
- - Terry Pratchett




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:49:44 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

>Err...  an M1 is alot quieter than an M60.  Downsides to turbines are
>tremendous heat (and thus thermal signature), fuel consumption, and 
>the maintenance requirement (which u listed).  As far as fragile... 
>the mech's say the diesels were alot easier to tinker with...
>
>1500 hp?  I think most of the modern NATO tanks use turbines.  >Almost 
positive Leo IIs, Challenger IIs, and LeClercs all use >turbines. 
>
>Gary

Leopard II - 1475 hp diesel 
Challenger II - 1200 hp diesel

BTW, the Swedish army choose the Leopard II over the M1 because of 
concerns with maintenance of turbines (actually I've heard that the US 
nearly choose the Leopard II instead of developing the M1).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them." 
 --- Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:52:05 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Imperial Policy

Has anyone addressed Imperial policy regarding trade from neighbouring 
countries, both mayor (e.g. Zhodani) and minor (single non-member 
worlds)? Are there tolls, special customs control etc.? Do the foreign 
ships have the right to travel anywhere Imperial ships do. If not would 
they require escort?

And while I'm at it are there special regulations for travel to nations 
outside the Imperium?

Any information/thoughts would be appreciated.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- - Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:02:18 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: High Guard question....officers and ratings

	1) Could someone offer a _rough_ estimate of how many officers
are present in the 
ship's troops?

On a modern CVN (Nimitz class) there were about 40 troops and 2
officers.

	2) Are petty officers considered officers as far as quarters and
the "Fighting Ships" 
style listings

Petty officers are ratings. "officers" are Rank O1+ in traveller.

On modern CVN's, all E1-E6 share the same bunkroom. 
Chief PO's (E7-E9) all share their own CPO bunkroom separate from the
lower enlisted personnel.
Officers O1-O4 share rooms (1-4 men, depending on rank and the size of
the room, but they all have beds and full-size lockers, as opposed to
E1-E6 who have only small lockers).
O5+ usually have their own SRs, including the Admiral's staff.
the captain has both an At-sea cabin (near the bridge) AND an inport
cabin with a conference room, etc.

Any female crew are in separate bunkrooms/staterooms as appropriate to
rank.


	3) Finally (and this isn't really military related, but...) are
all of the Service 
branch ratings? It doesn't list Officer/PO percentages..

If I understand this question properly, yes. Everyone has a Branch. Line
Officers are the ones who can take command.

"Rating" refers to any Enlisted person over E3. The term is used in
reference to someone who is skilled enough in his job to work
independently of constant supervision. (When I was a CTISN
(cryptologist, Seaman I was a "non-rated sailor" in Navy parlance. At
CTI3 (Cryptologist Third Class, I was a "rating", although in the modern
US Navy, the term isn't used: we just say 'Petty Officer'.)
B
asically, E4-E9 are "ratings" and, insofar as Traveller is concerned,
everyone (E1-O10) have a Branch.
In the US navy, E1-E3 don't necessarily have a Branch yet: they are
either Airmen, Seamen, Firemen (Enrgr branch), or a specialty like
Medical or Dental. At E4 they must have received a rate. (for instance,
I entered boot camp with a college degree as an AN (airman). changed to
SN (seaman), then went to crypto school and changed my insignia to CTISN
(but was still called non-rated).

Complicated, but does that help?

If you want to know more, let me know.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Don't argue about the difficulties. The difficulties will argue for
themselves. (Winston Churchill)




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	igor@truserve.com [SMTP:igor@truserve.com]
> Sent:	03 March 1999 09:08
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com; ct-starships@egroups.com
> Subject:	High Guard question....officers and ratings
> 
> Not being a military person, I thought I'd ask the following:
> 
> 1) Could someone offer a _rough_ estimate of how many officers are
> present in the 
> ship's troops? For example, in the Command Section, it states that
> there are 50% 
> officers and 50% ratings. I know that this is a grossly inaccurate way
> of doing it, 
> since the actual number of officers would be calculated from the type
> of troops carried 
> (A marine company would have different number than a army regiment
> which would be 
> different than a naval security squad, etc....). But, High Guard is
> supposed to be 
> simple, and I only need an estimate.
> 
> 2) Are petty officers considered officers as far as quarters and the
> "Fighting Ships" 
> style listings? For example, a ship may be listed as having "7
> officers, 20 ratings" in 
> the listing - in which category are the POs listed? IMTU, Officers
> always have a 
> stateroom to themselves (whereas ratings are 2 per stateroom). Where
> should POs be?
> 
> 3) Finally (and this isn't really military related, but...) are all of
> the Service 
> branch ratings? It doesn't list Officer/PO percentages...
> 
> I know the above isn't "official" or canon...I'm just trying to add
> some flavor to some 
> designs of mine...
> 
> Thanks for the help...
> 
> 
> 
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---+
> | Andrew Akins
> |
> | Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa
> Akins |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA
> |
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---+
> | IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+
> |
> |       vi+ da+
> |
> | Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+
> |
> |       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
> |
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---+
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:54:56 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

The aliens are very westernized in their thinking - "Oh, it's only a
civvie - they're no threat!" as said 'innocent local' proceeds to deposit a
large suitcase full of something nasty...

Keep the Flame!
Jeff R.
"It's not a question of whose habitat it is - it's how hard you hit it!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:04:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Policy

At 05:52 PM 3/3/99 CET, you wrote:
>Has anyone addressed Imperial policy regarding trade from neighbouring 
>countries, both mayor (e.g. Zhodani) and minor (single non-member 
>worlds)? Are there tolls, special customs control etc.? Do the foreign 
>ships have the right to travel anywhere Imperial ships do. If not would 
>they require escort?

All this IMTU.

Since the Imperium exists as a trade federation, it would be in it's best
interest to make trade outside the Imperium difficult.  There are many
little ways to make cross-border trade difficult.  Customs can impose fees,
put items into quarantine, require foreign traders to purchase expensive
licenses, etc..

Many independent worlds in the early days joined the Imperium simply to get
in on the large market (none of this Zhunastu school of contact bushwah.)

>And while I'm at it are there special regulations for travel to nations 
>outside the Imperium?

That would depend on the nation being traveled to.  The Sword Worlds, for
example, tend to require Imperials to carry a visa for the SWC itself,
along with one for every world on the itinerary.  This level of bureaucracy
tends to discourage all but the most determined traveller...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:37:56 PST
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures in Real Life(tm)

I spent four and a half years in the USCG (Uncle Sam's Confused Group, 
also known as the US Coast Guard). The last two and a half years were 
spent stationed on the 180' Buoy Tender/Ice Breaker USCGC SUNDEW 
(WLB-404) out of Duluth. One of our favorite tricks with the FNG's/Boots 
was to assign them the position of "Radar Calibrator". This could be 
done either underway, or while docked. (and it was really effective when 
there were lots of civilians around, like on Family Cruises, etc.)

The new guy would be wrapped in aluminum foil (thoughfully provided by 
me, the ships' Subsistence Specialist), don a hardhat wrapped in foil, 
and be given two spatulas (again provided by moi) also wrapped in foil. 
He would then be placed in position- the focs'l while underway, 
somewhere very public while docked. Then orders would be given to turn 
this way, turn that way, move your arm up, little to the left, etc. (so 
we could get the radar calibrated, of course).

Very fun...

Gary



Gary



Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...88



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:32:50 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

"David J. Golden" wrote:

>         And I wanna shake the hand of the researcher who had the courage to
> enter the gorilla cage as Mr and Mrs Hairy were getting it on, and
> slap a ruler down at the ... scene ...

IIRC, they have a penile bone which enables them to copulate at will.
When the gorilla dies, its just the simple task of measuring.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:34:47 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Ian Ferguson wrote:

>         A brick wall, a brick wall, a brick wall...
>
>         (can you name the movie?)

The Ipcres File?

Or was he thinking:  "That nail bloody hurts!"

:-)


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:39:47 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller is back!

We apologize for our disappearance.  It seems that the
organization that _was_ hosting us, NeoTown, silently packed up
its tent and went away.  It took us a little bit of time to find
a new home.  But we've succeeded.

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource, has returned.  We've done some minor updates in the
interval, but the important thing is that we _are_ back, and we
don't expect to go down again.  This is because we are now a
member of Downport.com, along with several other well-know
Traveller sites.  Downport hopes to become the premier location
for hosting Traveller sites, just as Freelance Traveller hopes to
become the premier site for finding Traveller information.  Both
Downport and Freelance Traveller believe that this is a good
match, and hope that our visitors will agree.

Our URL has _not_ changed - you can still reach us at
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller.  You can _also_ reach us at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  Please
note that URLs _are_ case-sensitive, and the Default.htm in the
Downport URL currently _is_ required.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller forms are
temporarily not working, you can always reach Freelance Traveller
with questions, comments, submissions, and ideas for articles or
departments, by sending e-mail to freetrav@hotmail.com.

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-1999.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:00:25 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: OT: Comments on SF Book

For those of you who have read and enjoyed Vernor Vinge's
_A_Fire_upon_the_Deep_ (those of you who haven't, DO SO!), his
latest book, _A_Deepness_in_the_Sky_ (now out in hardcover,
606pp, TOR, ISBN 0-312-85683-0, $27.95/C$38.95, but 10% off at
Barnes and Noble), lives up to the standard he set in AFutD.
Although the two stories are set in the same universe, and even
have a principal character in common, they are separated by about
30,000 years in time, many many parsecs in space, and the stories
are totally independent.

I'll not give away any of the plot, except to note that there are
some interesting parallels in the events of ADitS and AFutD, and
that Vinge has again succeeded in creating a believable alien
race.  The style is very much the same, switching between
viewpoints of principal characters from all involved "sides", and
man/machine interaction and data networks play an important part
in the story.  As with AFutD, a good read, and IMO well worth the
price.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:37:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Racial Cooperation

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico, you can bet
>the South Americans and North Americans would find themselves at the lowest
>common denominator(i.e., "human") and band together to trap these things in
>a cross-fire.  Scrambling for survival, there would be no time to tell the
>black man to get to the back of the C-130.

Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico, even a
nuclear holocaust of the country isn't going to guarantee wiping them out.
End of life on earth. Game over. Finis. Sic Transit Gloria Munda.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:12:47 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings

> 1) Could someone offer a _rough_ estimate of how many officers are present in the 
> ship's troops? For example, in the Command Section, it states that there are 50% 
> officers and 50% ratings. I know that this is a grossly inaccurate way of doing it, 
> since the actual number of officers would be calculated from the type of troops carried 
> (A marine company would have different number than a army regiment which would be 
> different than a naval security squad, etc....). But, High Guard is supposed to be 
> simple, and I only need an estimate.

Well, I was in the USN and on a troop transport.  IIRC, there was 
typically one Junior Officer for about every 80 troops.  And one 
Medium Officer for about every 6 JO and 1 Senior Officer over all of 
them.  We carried about 300-400 troops.

Of course, it has been years since I was in ...
 
> 2) Are petty officers considered officers as far as quarters and the "Fighting Ships" 
> style listings? For example, a ship may be listed as having "7 officers, 20 ratings" in 
> the listing - in which category are the POs listed? IMTU, Officers always have a 
> stateroom to themselves (whereas ratings are 2 per stateroom). 

Treat them as senior enlisted.

> Where should POs be?

Closer to the head (bathroom) then the junior enlisted.
 
> 3) Finally (and this isn't really military related, but...) are all of the Service 
> branch ratings? It doesn't list Officer/PO percentages...

In today's navy there are only 3 enlisted ranks and 6 PO ranks.  But 
all of the PO are considered "enlisted."  At E4+ they are also 
considered Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO).

Suggested Breakdown out of a crew of about 300
0  E1 Seaman Recruit - Bootcamp
60  E2 Seaman Apprentice
100  E3 Seaman
80  E4 PO 3rd Class
30  E5 PO 2nd Class
20  E6 PO 1st Class
10  E7 Chief PO
3  E8 Senior Chief PO
1  E9 Master Chief PO

Rough estimates ... my shop  had over 75% percent E5's.  There 
were only 18 of us.

1 Senior CPO
12 E5s
2 E4s
3 Firemen (E3)

The E4s and the Firemen got the grunt work ... a lot!

On our ship, all bunks were stacked 3 high.  E6's typically got the 
middle rack, Junior enlisted got the top rack and Middle PO 
generally got the bottom rack.  Or course, some people liked the 
top bunk and "made" a junior enlisted take the bottom one.  I 
personally won my middle bunk in a poker game.

The Chief's all shared a common berthing area ... that looked 
remarkably like the rest of the enlisted's ... only they didn't have to 
keep it clean.

Junior Officers usually shared a stateroom (2 each).  Senior 
Officers got their own.  The CO and XO each had a bedroom with a 
real bed!

Oh, well.  Enough of this.  I'm starting to get a headache thinking of 
those days!


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 20:34:41 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21: Spaceports

At 20:26 02.03.99 -0600, you wrote:

>Frankfurt/Rhein-Main, EC
This id like to see:
You cant even build a new runway without having to deal with 0 or more new
initiatives that formed just to oppose this. 
Id like to see the reaction to a proposal of building a spaceport.
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:23:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK> wrote:

>Well in UK it had a lot of us booing, once for the ridiculosly
>steriotyped Brits scene, and the other for Bill Pulman's 'Independence
>Day' speech. It seemed like the usual US-centric jingoism, made worse by
>the fact it was pretending it was humanocentric. BTW, not an attempt at a
>flame, just what it was like in one cinema on this side of the atlantic.

Not to mention the RAF flying F16s and Jeff Goldblum's Magic PowerBook
Batteries.

But the K'Kree ships were cool.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:35:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>1500 hp?  I think most of the modern NATO tanks use turbines.  Almost positive
>Leo IIs, Challenger IIs, and LeClercs all use turbines.

I thought the Challenger II was still diesel?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #245
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 3 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 246



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Vampires in Traveller? 
Off list response Re: GT Adventures
Re: Evolution
re: Racial Cooperation
re: Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)
re: Cultural Differences
re: Off list response Re: GT Adventures
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Evolution
Re: Racial Cooperation
Roton Rollout
Re: Imperial Crusades (was: Imperial Religion)
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Evolution
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)
Re: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:56:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

"Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>But
>then I read it in Tom Clancy's "Armored Warfare", pages 57 & 58, so figured
>that if *Tom Clancy* is prepared to put his name to it then it must have a
>grain of truth...

Nah! Don't you know Clancy is famous for his FICTION?

<grin, duck>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:50:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller? 

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:

>        In point of fact, I considered using the Deep Space book and the
>CP2020/ FNFF Rules to run a "Traveller" game...  Then I went back to my CT
>books and fell in love again...  =)


I considered it for TNE.... CP2020 seemed less complex. But hey, MT would
work just as well.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:01:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Off list response Re: GT Adventures

David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:


>	Oh, feedback about the books! To be honest, I'm on the road so much,
>and not currently playing, that I haven't done more than browse
>through them. I think some of the 101 Plots entries were a bit
>sparse, requiring more effort than the intro of 101 Plots suggests
>before they can be used as a "spur-of-the moment" diversion, but good
>seeds. I also felt that the descriptions of some of the religions in
>101 Religions were just too sparse for me to do anything with, but
>then I'm the kind of person who sometimes needs things spelled out a
>bit more.

Plots 2nd edition is about 1/3 written (and growing). It should be better,
especially in the sense it'll strip out the 'weird science' rubbish. It
probably won't go a million miles from the style of 76 patrons though.

Religions had the problem that we had to edit it for space. The problem
arose from the 101 name.... IIRC it's the biggest of all the books.

My favourites are Travellers and Rendezvous.

Cheers,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:24:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

At 01:32 PM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

>IIRC, they have a penile bone which enables them to copulate at will.

We traded *that* for the ability to reason?!

We got gypped.
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:30:10 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: re: Racial Cooperation

SD Mooney wrote:
>
> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> 
> >Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico [...snip...]
> 
> Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico, even a
> nuclear holocaust of the country isn't going to guarantee wiping them out.
> End of life on earth. Game over. Finis. Sic Transit Gloria Munda.

How do you figure? If we can't wipe 'em out, then we all 
start carrying machineguns and flamethrowers, and quality
and security of life goes way down, but that's a long, 
long way from "end of life on earth." Now, if Alien were
tool-users, then I'd be scared...

- -Russell B

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:03:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:

>Note how short the helo chase scene really was - only a few minutes.
>The situation went from "Hunting Big Game" to "Big Game Hunting Us"
>very quickly, the Helo pilots didn't have any time to re-evaluate the
>situation once they found themselves in danger - and in danger from
>an opponent they hadn't been trained to fight.
>
>Not that I think the movie didn't blow lots of details, but this is one that
>didn't feel that wrong to me when I saw it.

What about the MGs firing through the rotors?

Or the nuclear subs in the river?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:04:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Cultural Differences

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:

>fortnight            a couple a' weeks.

One of my friends who is over near Seattle had some problems with this
(blank looks) plus the bit when he went and got his 'jumper' to put on
because he was cold.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:24:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Off list response Re: GT Adventures

I wrote:

>Plots 2nd edition is about 1/3 written (and growing). It should be better,
>especially in the sense it'll strip out the 'weird science' rubbish. It
>probably won't go a million miles from the style of 76 patrons though.


Hmm. That one went to the wrong place. Didn't think it was worth a list
response, but obviously my mail filters did.

Okay, I'll admit it. 101 Plots is to have a sequel. It was the first book
and looking back is quite sparse compared to the rest, not to mention we've
had a few moans about the lack of scientific rigour in a few of the plots
(weird science reference). Anyway, it depends on whether you like lava
surfing. Generally it's a great resource, but my personal favourites are
Travellers and Rendezvous. Cargos (in both editions) comes  close third.
(Excluded - Lifeforms and Religions)

So we've started to compile another 101 plotlines. Don't know when it'll be
out, or even if it will be called 2nd edition, or even if it will replace
the 1st Edition. 101 More Plots, maybe?

On top of that are:

ACQ (in layout)

101st Spaceborne (when Doug breaks the writer's block,  Dericks monitor
returns to the land of the living, and Peter's computer recovers)

Scenarios (more news later)

101 Gadgets (draft underway)

Dom (enjoying the fact the TML has returned to TRAVELLER)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:42:45 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Steve Daniels writes:
"The Ipcres File?

Or was he thinking:  "That nail bloody hurts!"

:-)"

	IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's
	been quite a while. It was a sci-fi movie (60's?) in
	which all the women in a small town in the US become 
	pregnant and give birth to telepathic emotionless 
	children (some sort of alien plot, I think). They are
	going to school and growing up as normal humans (at
	least physically), but they are organized and in control
	of the community (they can read minds and even force
	people to do things such as kill themselves). In the 
	end the teacher puts a bomb in his briefcase and takes
	it to class, and thinks about a brick wall. The children
	realize that something is wrong and try to force their 
	way into his head as he thinks 'a brick wall, a brick 
	wall...' the final scene is neat, all the children are
	staring at him and suddenly (and simultaniously) they 
	all turn to the briefcase just before it goes 'boom'.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:00:28 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> 
> >Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico, you can bet
> >the South Americans and North Americans would find themselves at the lowest
> >common denominator(i.e., "human") and band together to trap these things in
> >a cross-fire.  Scrambling for survival, there would be no time to tell the
> >black man to get to the back of the C-130.
> 
> Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico,

Aieeeeee CHUPACABRA!!!!

For those of you NOT from the southwest of the US, a chupacabra is an
alleged vampire goat killing monster that inhabits these regions.
Actually the myth is seemingly widespread throughout central america and
the carribean, as well.

But every few years theres a rash of reports that make the news (usually
the Weekly World News, that is...)

been the butt of a number of jokes, and possibly the genises behind
Predator...

Do a web search on chupacabra, and you'll be treated to more than you
ever wanted to know, I'm sure ;-)
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:01:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Steve Daniels writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Eris Reddoch writes:
>>>We are told that the minor races were transplanted about 400,000
>>>years ago, correct?
>>
>>Incorrect. That is, we are told that in several places, but those places
>>are incorrect. The original information about the Ancients was that they
>>arose around -310,000 and lasted till around -290,000. The transplantations
>>from Earth took place around -300,000 (but the Ancients visited Earth 'a
>>number of times', so it could have been spread out a couple of thousand
>>years).
> 
>FWIW:
>Looking at MT Imperial Encyclopedia:
>Imperial -400,000 = 300,000 Vilani : Humans transplanted
>Imperial -300,000 = Final War destroys Ancients

Yes, IE is one of those places where this erroneous information may be found.
The original information is from _Secret of the Ancients_.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:00:15 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

> There was a scene in Iraq with some Bertie Wooster clones chatting to some
> Iraqis before setting off in their RAF F-16s (!) to prang some aliens.

Coulda swore the only F-16 I saw in that movie was one w/ a star of David on
it.  I'm not bout to find a tape of it and verify, mind you.  lol

> I've heard they tailor movies to the various markets - maybe this was a 
> version for us Brits, talk about badly targetting an audience! The other
> explaination is I did another slide and watched the movie in another
> universe ;-) 

Maybe it's the tailoring thing.  I do seem to remember there's an english
speaking character at the radio with some kind of accent that might've been
English, I suppose.  But the others were Israelis and Iraqis, i'm pretty sure.

> I think it was the fact that the invasion occured for jingoistic purposes
> on July 4th.

Much like Godzilla always going for Tokyo and that Brit ripoff I saw on that
old movie channel (AMC I think, and that has to be one of the funniest movies
I've ever seen), etc etc.

That would actually be a good time for aliens to conduct an overarching
strategy, though wouldn't work anything like the Yom Kippur war did against
the Israelis for anyone else dirtside to try it.  In the movie, IIRC, they
said the aliens hit NATO bases first and presumably the aliens in ID4 had been
studying Earth for years.  Like in Niven & Pournelle's "Footfall,"  the US
would probably appear to be far more advanced than any other, at least from
space.  Industrialized, regular space launches, huge urban centers, sky
seething with aircraft and all kinds of EM noise (radio, tv, etc).

> It did pretty well over here - though I think there were a lot of ladies
> watch because Will Smith was in it. Put me off Devlin and Emmerlich for
> good - thank god, meant i missed Godzilla. 

Gozilla was ok.  Didn't expect the shades of Jurassic Park, but I wasn't
expecting a masterpiece there, either.  ;-)  
 
> On a related note - Star Trek: Insurrection did far better in Europe than
> the US. Are we getting the bad taste/no sense bug?

Getting?  ;-)  j/k.  

> OBTRAV: PCs land on a planet which *loves* an imported spy show, which
> just happens to be made on the homeworld of one or more of the characters.
> Natives are continually speaking to the PC with show catchphrases, asking
> them about the program (virtually unknown at home), being invited to Fan
> Cons, and getting hassled by incoherent drunks in bars. Any disrespect
> could be dangerous - and might lead to a 'jolly good thrashing!'.

Imagine if someone does a Shatner and tells em all to geta life.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:04:10 -0500 
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Roton Rollout

	The first prototype for the Roton spacecraft, which features
kerosene engines and uses a rocket powered rotor to land was recently
unveiled.  Very interesting concept.  Here's the URL which features a 1 hour
Real Media Webcast.

	http://www.rollout.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:00:12 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Crusades (was: Imperial Religion)

I noticed this when browsing the back digests of the tml I had skimmed, due to
the... other discussions I was involved in.  ;-)  I happen to have studied
these a bit (Steven Runciman's 3 Volume work is the definitive, covering all
sides, parties, and participents in a year by year fashion).  

> The first crusade "liberated" Jerusalem just after the Christian Arabs
> appear to have gained control.

Jerusalem hadn't been ruled by Christians since it was lost to the Caliph Omar
in 638 and during the First Crusade was in the hands of the Muslim Egyptians.
Pilgrimage to the East had been made very hazardous by the weakened state of
the Byzantine Empire, the activities of the Turks in Anatolia, piracy on the
seas, and notable westerners were being forbade entry into Jerusalem by the
(Muslim) authorities (though probably due to the chaos of the region by the
Egyptian/Turk conflict).  It changed hands between the Turks and Egyptians a
couple times before the First Crusade took it from the Egyptian Govenor
Iftikhar in 1099.

> The fourth crusade sacked Constantinople, centre of the Greek Orthodox
> church to "protect it" from the Turks.

Well there was a Byznatine claimaint to the throne who had rashly promised
more money than he could give to the westerners.  The Venetians had been out
for that end sicne the beginning.  The Byzantine Empire had been decaying
severely since the reign of the Emperor Manuel.  It's notable that the
*entire* Crusade was excommunicated, though this was lifted against all but
the leaders (and eventually all except the Venetians).

> I don't feel that these points should be seen as church bashing, they
> are just examples of what can happen when idealism meets the real world:

Yup.  Even aside from the Italian city-states, there were a good proportion of
adventures on the make who tagged along.  Younger sons and the like who had
nothing to inheret in Europe.  Also were a good amount of the pious.  The
proportions vary according to what accounts you read.  The most successful
turned out to be the adventurers, at least by the title and territory count.

> ObTrav:
> 
> So the Holy Imperial Emperor has sanctioned crusades against the
> unbelievers, promising life eternal and all sins forgiven?
> 
> Where do you go?
<snip> 
> So I'd go there, with the whole Corridor fleet if possible, and not
> stop until every world had an HIE naval task force "protecting" it,
> those high tech, high pop worlds weren't and everyone was on a war
> budget with large border fleets.

Yeah.  If the medieval Crusades are a model on this, then Huscarles would be
big w/ this, too, maybe even the mainstay of the Imperial Navy, if you don't
want a Star Wars'esque type Imperium.  Maybe that's what composes the Imperial
Navy.  Probably contrary to canon, but what the hey. ;-)

> Next, when the merchants in Core fund the Core fleets, they don't want
> to send them against the Zhodani, since the Corridor fleet can easily
> protect them (if only it stays in Corridor), they want to keep it local
> and enhance their immediate trade goals, say in the Vland sector lose
> the Vilani Megacorps with their policies base on the First Imperium and
> the "One True Way" of the 3I will be seen to everyone.

Course, what are these fleets doing in 1100? 

> Then, when looking for somewhere to extend your fiefdom, why not take
> your fleet down into the Solomani Confederacy and free its peoples
> from heresy. If every Imperial noble does their part and grabs a few
> worlds it will soon see the light.

Until, like w/ the Crusades to the Levant, the nobles beging losing interest.
The French nobility always wavered between supporting the 'western arm' (Spain
and the Reconquista) vs the eastern, with the ebb and flow of success in each
theatre.
After awhile, the entire Crusading spirit becomes dulled and then non
existant, due to numerous "false Crusades" against Heretics or to settle
domestic disputes.

> Finally, there has to be someone who will understand the true meaning
> of the HIE's words and take a fleet into the Two Thousand Worlds to
> break their ban on beef imports.

lol.  That sounds funny.  It was meant to be right?  The HIE has beef imports
on the top of his list? ;-)

> The result of all this?
> Well it could be a strong, centrally controlled and unified Imperium.
> It could be a race to see which of its enemies reaches Core first.

Now that sounds interesting. :-)  Course, imagine what happens when the
weakness turns out to be from within (one of the Archukes... say from Ilelish)
and not from without.  That results in a 14 year civil war (aka Rebellion) of
nearly a dozen factions that results in a dangerous AI uncontrollable
superweapon being released, which paves the way for adventure and politics ala
post-Rome Europe...  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:58:25 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> >1500 hp?  I think most of the modern NATO tanks use turbines.  >Almost 
> > positive Leo IIs, Challenger IIs, and LeClercs all use >turbines. 
> >
> 
> Leopard II - 1475 hp diesel 
> Challenger II - 1200 hp diesel

I have always sucked w/ my knowledge on allied tanks, though, not that I can
say we've ever studied them much.  Not likely to be threat vehicles.  Thanx
for the facts.  U know bout the LeClerc?  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:14:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

 
> >IIRC, they have a penile bone which enables them to copulate at will.
 
Hmmm, do the great apes really have a baculum (aka os penis, aka
penile bone)? I thought that they didn't. I'll check in my primates
book.

You should see the cast I got my wife (she's a urologist, not a
deviant :-) -- it's of a walrus baculum. About the size of a billy
club, and it has a healed break in the middle. Yikes!

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:07:52 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Ian Ferguson wrote:

>         IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's
>         been quite a while. It was a sci-fi movie (60's?) in
>         which all the women in a small town in the US become
>         pregnant and give birth to telepathic emotionless
>         children (some sort of alien plot, I think). 

I seem to vaguely remember that movie, or one like it, from my
childhood, not that I was allowed to actually go see it. ;-> Wasn't it
late fifties, not sixties,and wasn't the village in England, not the
US?  I was reminded of it when Pink Floyd did "The Wall", and again
when "Children of the Corn" came out.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:23:47 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!! (was re: Egads!)

In a message dated 3/3/99 12:45:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<< Or the nuclear subs in the river? >>

I didn't see the movie, but I grew up in New York, and I KNOW that the East
River, and the Hudson are deep enough for a sub to travel on the surface at
least...Heck, theoretically, a sub could make it up the Hudson almost to West
Point on the surface (I think; I can't remember how far up the river is
navigable to deep draft shipping); though WHY anyone would be this silly...In
WWII there were sub nets and maybe mines (?) to protect the harbor from U
boats... I think the only reason I never saw one at the pier for fleet week
and/or Op Sail was that the idiots at Gracy Mansion (Mayor's digs...) and in
Albany (state capital) didn't want a nuclear powered vessel in the harbor to
go "boom" (I know they don't, but people are irrational...). This explains the
oil fired carriers participating (usually the JFK, though with all the
decommisionings; I don't know who the navy'll send this year...). Of course;
these same politicians who don't want nuclear powerplants, never stopped to
think about the nuclear weapons probably aboard the conventional powered
warships in the harbor...:-).

Ob Trav: political and military bun-fights and jurisdiction fights...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:34:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Ian Ferguson wrote:

>  A brick wall, a brick wall, a brick wall...
>
>  (can you name the movie?)

"Village of the Damned".

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:40:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

David J. Golden wrote:

>>Slight problem. The average gorilla measures 3 inches when erect.
>>:-)
> 
>	And I wanna shake the hand of the researcher who had the courage to
>enter the gorilla cage as Mr and Mrs Hairy were getting it on, and
>slap a ruler down at the ... scene ...

That's gonna be a problem. He doesn't have his hands any more...



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Look! Smoke signals! Can you read them, Chief?"

"Of course. Ah... 'Puff, puff puff, puff; puff, puff puff, puff,
apostrophe puff, puff, puff puff, exclamation puff'.

"What does it mean?"

"'Help, my blanket's caught fire!'"

                                --- _Round the Horne_ radio sketch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:55:00 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

>
> > >IIRC, they have a penile bone which enables them to copulate at will.
>
> Hmmm, do the great apes really have a baculum (aka os penis, aka
> penile bone)? I thought that they didn't. I'll check in my primates
> book.

I know Chimps do.  I seem to remember that Humans are the only
primates without it.  Something I saw on a Desmond Morris
documentary, I beleive.

> You should see the cast I got my wife (she's a urologist, not a
> deviant :-) -- it's of a walrus baculum. About the size of a billy
> club, and it has a healed break in the middle. Yikes!

<All the males on the list cringe in unison>

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:07:44 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)

>> Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico,
>
>Aieeeeee CHUPACABRA!!!!

[snippity snip]

>been the butt of a number of jokes, and possibly the genises behind
>Predator...


The favorite around here (southwestern Indiana) is that it is a good thing
the "goat-sucker" didn't prey on male chickens, else an unfortunate english
translation of the name would result . . . ;-)

ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
monsters, baby!

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:22:05 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The rest of the Story (TM) was Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

Thomas Schoene wrote:

>ObTrav, is there and way to build a practical anti-grav tank mine.?  I was
>thinking some sort of one shot plasma weapon, with low-cost passive sensors
>for acquisition and a basic comm net to coordinate attacks .   How cheap
>can you make a grav sensor?

Yep - an unattended anti-tank guided weapon with a passive
detection/tracking system. Similar to the `off-route' anti-tank weapons
being developed now.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #246
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 3 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 247



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)
Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)
Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Roton Rollout
Traveller BEM (Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation))
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Vampires In Traveller
Re: Subject: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)
Subject:  Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Evolution
Re: CML*
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports
'Low Tech' Does Not Mean 'Low Brow' (longish)
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re:  smallpox
Re: Evolution
Re:  Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium (was Re: Evolution)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:07:57 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Gary wrote:

>> Sorry, I can't parse that. Are you saying that a Ka-50 / Mi-28 are safe
>> from an MPAT round?
>
>The MPAT is supposed to be quite useful against a Hind and similar choppers.
>A havok is going to be much harder to hit.  I can't remember the specifics.
>Choppers is very minor.  A Hind is very deadly to a tank, and we only study
>them for SNAFU scenarios, but an MPAT can be just as deadly to a Hind, if it's
>not careful.  

Got it.

>> A Turbine? Not much more power (in fact, the British Army was offered a
>> diesel with the same power output as the turbine in the M1. More
>> maintenance, more fragile, more noise.
>
>Err...  an M1 is alot quieter than an M60.  Downsides to turbines are
>tremendous heat (and thus thermal signature), fuel consumption, and the
>maintenance requirement (which u listed).  As far as fragile... the mech's say
>the diesels were alot easier to tinker with...  

Ok, a turbine doesn't roar as loud as a diesel. But the characteristic
whine of a turbine carries better.

>1500 hp?  I think most of the modern NATO tanks use turbines.  Almost positive
>Leo IIs, Challenger IIs, and LeClercs all use turbines. 

Challenger II certainly doesn't use a turbine - it's got a Perkins
Diesel plant. I'm pretty certain that the Leo II is a diesel; no idea
about the French effort.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:14:49 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>All right I profess ignorance...what is an MPAT round, and does FS or
>Gridlore make a handgun that can use one? ;-)

MPAT - Multipurpose Antitank. A follow on to the HEAT round, it combines
a subcaliber HEAT round with a sabot with a dual mode fuse, set at the
time of loading. The fuse is either contact, for anti-vehicle or troop
use; or proximity, for anti-air use. 

FS: I think that you're either going to end up with a very very small
fuse (and effective radius) for the round; or your handgun will be in
84mm calibre.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:28:01 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)

"Joseph R. Dietrich" wrote:
> 
> ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
> monsters, baby!

I've always been fond of the Doyle's Eel, because of the way (IMTU) that you
don't notice that it's chewing on cabling until you're in hyperspace.

There are always the Chamax too.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:25:56 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)

Okay, so I wasn't very original, but I put my players on an Azhanti High
Lighting that had TWO Aliens queens and the assorted retainers on it.  That
was QUITE the firefight.

Another good idea source is Wayne Barlowe's "Expedition".  I had my players
crashland on the planet (it was interdicted).  The expressions and comments
about some of the fauna when they ran into them was quite priceless.  "That
"tree" did WHAT!!!" or my favorite "It went THROUGH it??" (referring to a
Jet-Darter IIRC).

Jesse

>ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>monsters, baby!
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:31:53 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)

At 04:07 PM 3/3/99 -0600, you wrote:

>ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>monsters, baby!

I think the nastiest baddie I have seen for Traveller appeared in an early
issue of the Journal.  The Reticulan Parasite...aka the Alien from Alien.
Nasty SOB...Natural armor of Battledress...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:50:36 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
> monsters, baby!

Would have to be the Psionic Pouncer from Research Station 
Gamma.  If you have a party of non-psi's, they are toast.  

Used them.  Lost half the party before they decided the IISS knew 
what they were doing when they interdicted the world.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:25:53 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Roton Rollout

If this works as designed, space access could become very cheap.
Eventually they want to get into the business of manufacturing and
selling vehicles to third parties.  They haven't stated what they
plan to sell vehicles for, but it should be fairly reasonable.

Things are heating up.

Eric Freitas


- -----Original Message-----
From: J. Alan Hatcher <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:16 PM
Subject: Roton Rollout


> The first prototype for the Roton spacecraft, which features
>kerosene engines and uses a rocket powered rotor to land was recently
>unveiled.  Very interesting concept.  Here's the URL which features a 1
hour
>Real Media Webcast.
>
> http://www.rollout.org/
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Traveller BEM (Re: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation))

At 04:07 PM 03/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>monsters, baby!
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>

        Personally, I think it was the Chamax....    EEEEEEEK! (Sound of
mini-guns and RPG fire in the background)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:03:43 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

At 04:50 PM 3/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>> monsters, baby!
>
The Chamax are always up there on the nasty scale
along with the Dyson from the old Judges Guild Adventure
Darthanon Queen

The Nastiest thing I' ve thrown at one of my parties 
was something equivilant to the "DamnThing" from
H. Beam Pipers Fuzzy Books

which was a cross between an African Rhino and an
Arkansas Razorback Hog, but its not as nice.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:16:30 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Vampires In Traveller

And if you want a really good hook for your adventure, try reading about the
British Royal Family and porphyria. Its a hereditary disease.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 03 March 1999 18:47
Subject: Re : Vampires In Traveller


>Jeff Zeitlin wrote :-
>> I also seem to recall reading about a genetic condition that made
>> a person extremely intolerant of UV, to the point where the
>> person could have holes eaten in their skin through exposure to
>> ordinary sunlight.  This could easily be used as a hook into
>> other "vampire" stories.
>> - --
>
>This too is one of the many types of porphyria.
>
>The porphyrias as a group of disorders have a common pathophysiology :-
>disordered metabolism of porphyrin rings, which hold the iron atom in
>haemoglobin (among other things).
>
>Different genetic errors result in aberrant synthetic and degradative
>enzymes being produced, and the accumulation of various intermediate
>compounds.
>
>Accumulated porphyrin degradation products in the variant Jeff has
>described above are extremely photosensitive.
>
>Robert O'Connor
>Medico, Gamer
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 02:37:07 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: The *what* sucker!?! (was Re: Racial Cooperation)

>ObTrav: What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller 
>form, either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them 
>non-human monsters, baby!
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich

In the MT adventure by Charles Gannon (Challange 54) there was a mean 
mother The plot is played out on Ixion (C6A1234-9) and has all the 
right elements, freezing nights, CO2 mists at dawn, an abandoned 
research facility etc... The beast was simply called the Creature and 
looks something like a small dinosaur with a lobster head.

Most people have probably read it but

s
p
o
i
l
e
r

The monster is a 400 kg Carnivore/Killer with 10cm teeth and 15 cm 
claws. The nasty thing about this beast is not only that it is very 
aggressive but also has enough intelligence to readily grasp abstract 
concepts (i.e. green light - safe, red light - danger, or this shotgun 
hurts - break it). This intelligence is geared towards killing things. 
To further make the beast more formidable it can teleport and make it's 
victims sleepy. It has very acute hearing and smell but bad eyesight 
(due to the bad visual conditions on the planet it is actually 
short-sighted)

Ohh and of course it lays eggs in dead bodies with the help of its tail 
mounted stinger (now if he'd been a B52 this would have been a M61 
Vulcan :) now that's a monster). The adventure comes with 3 sets of 
brawns that are used to show the PC:s how dangerous the situation is. 
Exactly my kind of adventure...

My players were literary scared shitless. The adventure is a mix of a 
detective story (who/what/how killed the scientist) and fastpaced 
action. My players got their first look of the monster via an 
jury-rigged surveillance system from their vehicle battery, some TV:s 
and three video cameras. This was after they lost one of the NPC:s and 
the APC they arrived in. 

They then thought they had it cornered in the kitchen so all but two of 
the not so heavily armed (shotguns, pistols) characters chased after it.  
When they arrived the kitchen was empty. At one time they seriously 
belived that the beast used the _plumbing_ to move around. That was when 
they heard the screaming and gunfire from where they had left the rest 
(1 PC , 1 NPC). It took two more dead NPC and 2 hurt PC:s (one 
seriously) to hunt it down.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- - Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 02:39:03 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Subject:  Re: Bradley vs M113

>> Leopard II - 1475 hp diesel 
>> Challenger II - 1200 hp diesel
>
>I have always sucked w/ my knowledge on allied tanks, though, not >that 
I can say we've ever studied them much.  Not likely to be >threat 
vehicles.  Thanx for the facts.  U know bout the LeClerc?  
>
>Gary

I looked around a little and found
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leclerc/.

that says that the LeClerc has a 1500 hp diesel.

The site has most of the other tanks as well

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- - Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:42:30 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Don C. Lindsay  and others wrote on Bonobo + Human crossbreeding:

[Our closest living non-human relative is the bonobo, or pygmy chimp
Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, chimpanzees 24.]

The chromosome number problem isn't insuperable.  Przewalski's wild horse
has 66, domestic horses have 64, but they can breed.  But there are also the
nine inversions.  One of these would just reduce interfertility. Ten
mutations seems like a lot to overcome.

 Ian A. York  wrote the following in 1996:

Horses and donkeys have different numbers of chromosomes - 64 and 62
respectively - but they hybridize readily to produce mules, with 63
chromosomes.  Mules are, of course, legendary for being sterile; but there
is nothing you can count on any more in this wicked world, and there are two
documented cases of fertile horse X donkey hybrids:

  Rong R.  Chandley AC.  Song J.  McBeath S.  Tan PP.  Bai Q.  Speed RM.
  A fertile mule and hinny in China.
  Cytogenetics & Cell Genetics.  47(3):134-9, 1988.

     "Anecdotal reports of fertility in female mules (jack donkey x mare)
and hinnies (stallion x jenny donkey) have appeared in the literature over
the years, but scientists have generally regarded them with scepticism. The
fact that some of these hybrids can come into estrous and ovulate makes
fertility conceivable, given that opportunity for mating arises. In China,
where mules are bred extensively for work on the farms, a fertile female
mule and a fertile female hinny have now been verified by chromosomal
investigation. Each had mated with a donkey and produced a filly foal. The
foals show unique hybrid karyotypes different from the mule's or hinny's and
different from each other's. The studies make it clear that mule and hinny
fertility, at least for the female hybrid, is a real possibility."

>>IIRC, they have a penile bone which enables them to copulate at will.

>We traded *that* for the ability to reason?!
>We got gypped.


The ability to reason AND a

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:46:03 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: CML*

Solution:  Delete any message that even mentions 'Clif'.  I don't ussually
read
anything with his name in it.  I already have a filter in place that deletes
anything
that comes directly from him.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:43:51 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

At 04:48 pm 3/2/99 PST, you wrote:

>That's why G. Harry Stine wrote "Shuttle Down". He was pointing out
the
>fact that NASA's contigency planning had *huge* holes in it. He
choose
>to take a "worst case", namely go with then still possible idea of
>shuttle launches from Vandenberg. This was (and still *is*) a good
>idea, because you can't easily get into true polar orbits from the
>Cape. The allowable launch paths don't angle enough to the south. 
>Examples: The 747 that carries the Shuttle back to Kennedy only has
a
>range of 3000 miles. And *no* fittings for midair refueling. That'll
>make returning from any non-US landing *really* interesting. 
>
>The Shuttle does not carry an airworthiness certificate (required by
>international law for *all* aircraft). It does not cary licenses for
>the radio transmitters on board. The crew do not carry passports.
Any
>one of these could result in the confiscation of the Shuttle and the
>detainment of the crew if the government of the country it lands in
>wants to get picky.
>
>Oh yeah, the OMS system (steering jets) uses *highly* toxic
chemicals.
>As in a leak after landing could wipe out a small city. 
>
>And a *real* capper. Due to lack of on-board cooling capability, the
>crew *must* leave the shuttle immediately after touchdown. At the
>normal touchdown sites, there's a rollup "ladder, and gear to force
>cool air thru the ship. At anyplace else, they'll have to wait for
the
>ship to cool on it's own. But once it's cooled, they''l have to dig
up
>a *ladder* to get back into the ship!

	I believe all of this has actually been corrected. I originally read
the story in Analog, and my paperback book had an introduction
listing all the things NASA has corrected--Airworthiness Certificate
(IIRC, in the "Experimental" category), crew papers, radio licenses
... and a rope ladder to get out of *and* back into the shuttle.

	Unfortunately, I can't verify any of this ... my copy is in some
storage warehouse in Alexandria somewhere.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:43:03 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: 'Low Tech' Does Not Mean 'Low Brow' (longish)

There has been some discussion on the playtest list for 'G:T First In'
(which looks very good - kudos to Jon Zeigler) about the difference
between knowledge tech levels and achievement tech.

Specifically, given sufficient knowledge, what advances can you utilise
at low tech levels ?

In the discussion below, I assume that the TL tables given in the books
are typical development sequences for *isolated worlds*, but an index of
industrial capacity for *any world* (so Stone Age [0] - Medieval [1] -
Renaissance [2] - Industrial Revolution [3]).

I shall concentrate on medical tech, since I have some expertise in this
area.

* Tech Level 0 :
- - Clinical medicine : history and physical examination!
- - Dietary measures and exercise as important preventative medicine.
- - First Aid techniques.
- - Simple antisepsis : hot water and soap, washing of hands and
instruments. Good enough for wound dressings, superficial procedures
(lancing, piercing, trephining) and simple obstetric procedures
(delivery +/- forceps, curettage).
- - Local anaesthesia : use of cocaine or equivalent.
- - Analgesia : use of poppy alkaloids, willow bark (aspirin) or
equivalent.
- - Pharmaceuticals prepared by grinding and drying, or ageing in pots or
gourds (e.g. curare).
Administration : oral, topical, subcutaneous, intramuscular ('poison
darts', anyone?).
- - Vaccination (if there is a local virus etc. similar to cowpox-smallpox
in crossover immunogenicity).
  
* Tech Level 1 : 
- - Development of pottery and glassmaking enables distillation and other
'wet chemistry' techniques.
- - Brewing technology enables the synthesis of antibiotics (but first
find your fungus).

Yields are poor until the development of 'pressure cooker' type boilers,
which also permit scrupulous antisepsis (i.e. autoclaving instruments,
pyrogen free intravenous fluids).

- - The synthesis of ether is possible, enabling general anaesthesia.
- - Completion of the 'anaesthetic triad' : anaesthesia, analgesia, and
muscular paralysis (curare is TL 0) is therefore possible, but requires
airway protection (endotracheal tubes) and some sort of breathing
circuit. ?rubber tubing ?bladders - or, at a stretch, plastics, with
access to crude oil or coal and a fractionation column.....

Access to pure oxygen is desirable but not essential. If this was a firm
requirement, the minimum tech level required is that to distill and
bottle gases (about TL 3-4).

- - Vascular catherisation is possible with sufficiently advanced
glassmaking skills ; drawing metal into wires or thin hollow tubes is
Tech Level 2.

Given sufficiently advanced anaesthesia, *any* surgery is *possible*,
but may not be practical e.g. joint replacements or other prosthetics,
and organ transplantation. (Cardiac surgery was very interesting prior
to the development of heart-lung machines!)

- - Surgical instruments that could be constructed would be familiar to
any TL 8 surgeon : blades, forceps, retractors, etc. These are low grade
steel or iron and have a short lifespan (rust!?)

- - Blood grouping certainly possible, as is other serology (e.g. viral
titres). Storing sera (for grouping purposes) and blood is a real
problem without reliable refrigeration.
Whole blood is typically donated and transfused on the spot.

- - Most diagnostic blood work could be done, but results would not be
available in a timely fashion (several hours to process a specimen).
Radioimmunoassays for hormones require TL 4-5 (need at least a
cyclotron). 

* Tech Level 2 :
- - Hypodermic needles (dependent on wire-drawing) ; large bore guide
wires for invasive vascular access.
- - Better metallurgy - longer lived instruments.
- - 'Pressure cookers' - autoclaves and deep culture apparatus.

Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:00:52 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Evolution

>We have to remember that we're talking, essentially, what started as a
>parasitic (though now completely obligate symbiotic) separate organism,
>with it's own reproductive rate, and own rate of inerent mutation.
>that's what makes them valulable as genetic clocks.

For a rather unusual angle on this subject, see the Playstation console RPG
"Parasite Eve", by Squaresoft.

- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:50:46 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Gary wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I always envisioned the 3I as being more of  a meritocracy, than having
institutionalized racism.


Well, that depends on how much YTU uses the Major/Minor race thing.  And
this can vary from sector to sector.  But it is lurking in the shadows of
the OTU

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The bloodlines (at least Solomani & Vilani, though it's safe to toss in a
few of the other MHRs, too, IMO) are supposed to have become so mixed in the
time during and since the Rule of Man that the differences
were largely cultural.


True, but I don't recall this being mentioned for MHRs, except maybe Syleans
in M:0.  And Geonee at least are culturally and genetically distinct.  Just
what Minor means to them is a question, especially if you take Carlos
Ferrers most excellent websource as neo-canonalistic.  They don't seem to
suffer too much, at least while in Massilia.

The only other MHRs I have any material on are the Florians and Halkans in
the Trojan Reach issue of the Digest.  I think both are seriously flawed as
presented and so will not cite them as canon.

However, since there are still other MHR within the Imperium, and they are
still considered Minor, that  alone should be enough to make some
assumptions.  There are still significant numbers of genetically pure MHRs
to still be considered separate branches of humaniti.  They stayed 'pure'
during the last thousand years either because they wanted to (Geonee) or
because they were somehow isolated.  Isolation could be read as racism, but
YMMV.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:51:02 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  smallpox

David P. Summers wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the Vilani live for several dozen mellenia without being exposed
to virus crossing over from other species


Why not?  If bacteria can exploit the humans, why not viruses?  Especially
something as primitive as a retrovirus.  IIRC something like AIDS is so
'successful' because of the high number of transcription errors it makes
when it reproduces.  It therefore has a very very high mutation rate and so
evolves incredibly fast.

Terrans get cross species virus infection because, among other reasons, we
live so close to animals.  While they couldn't eat them, don't Vilani have
domesticated animals too?  The only example I can think of is the Luugiir
(spl?), but they weren't domesticated until after they invented the jump so
they wouldn't count in this case.  Are their any domesticated animals native
to Vland?

Of course, a Vlandish virus would have to be able to handle Terran DNA, so
that could be a big stumbling block there.  Since I'm no microbiologist let
me know if this is totally off course.  Then again, since the Plague of
Duskir is canon...

Ah, to heck with it.  The Plague of Duskir had to be a bioweapon used by the
soulless UN/Confederation.  Only Hiroshi had the morality to stand up to
corrupt and cynical Secretariat.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:51:54 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution

Dave Golden wrote
>>>>>>>>>>
And I wanna shake the hand of the researcher who had the courage to
enter the gorilla cage as Mr and Mrs Hairy were getting it on, and
slap a ruler down at the ... scene ...

I might wave, but I don't think I want to touch his hand...

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:52:13 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium (was Re: Evolution)

Peter Newman wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember that minor human races are minor in numbers as well.


That doesn't hold up for MHR that started out with the fledgling Imperium,
like the Syleans or Answerin.  They should have been almost as numerous in
colonizing new worlds as the Vilani and Solomani and so should be a large
part of the general population today.

Blocks to this would have been racism at the start of the Imperium.  Not
unlikely given the Zhunastu School, in fact it might have made that form of
recontact more 'palatable'.  It would be easier to treat sophonts,
especially other humans, the way the School instructed if you thought of
them as 'less than' you.  Low numbers today would have been the result in
few/no colonies a thousand years ago.

Also, the low numbers could also mean 'genetically pure' examples.  Syleans
and Answerin could have been interbreeding with Vilani and Solomani since
the start, and so your average modern Imperial could trace their ancestry
back to them.  The reason MHR are restricted is more that they have isolated
themselves, and less institutional racism.  Carlos Ferrers' Geonee seem to
be a prime example of this.

That doesn't mean the Geonee aren't subject to racism, just that they aren't
helping matters any through their actions.

There are in fact low numbers of genetically pure Solomani in the Imperium,
but they aren't subject to Major/Minor racism.  Which on the surface doesn't
make sense given the hostility of the Imperium to the Confederation.  If you
can point at someone and say 'he's a Solomani' you can point at a
'potential' threat.  So you (or at least I) can assume you can't point out a
genetically pure Solomani.  The mixed Imperial humaniti would resemble them
too closely.  There is a picture in G:T of a Vilani, Solomani and Zhodani.
Vilani and Solomani look suspiciously like they stepped off an Austin, TX
streetcorner.  You can't tell them apart without the name tags.

To sum up, it appears that institutional racism has effected MHRs at least
since the days of Cleon I.  Maybe not so malignant in the 1100s, but I'd say
its still there.  BEMs, on the other hand, are pretty clearly victims of
racism.

Joe

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #247
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, March 4 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 248



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

World Seeds 7 (was world hooks)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
RE: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re:  Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Evolution
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:29:13 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Seeds 7 (was world hooks)

World seeds sounds a little better than world hooks. Here are half a
dozen more.

37. Central government has entirely collapsed, and there is a
general state of lawlessness and chaos. No one is able to command
allegiance and restore the government.

38. This world is favorably situated on a main and is a major
headquarters for shipping concerns. It specializes in building
and operating more, larger, and longer-range ships than anyone
else in the region, so it is the major source of colonization
attempts and technological transfer to less-developed worlds.

39. Wealthy individuals are taking advantage of their relative
advantage in technology. Small property owners are losing their
holdings and becoming employees or tenants of the large property
owners.

40. The government rules through fear of its efficient military. Its
advanced communication system notifies the rulers of insurrection, and its
advanced transportation swiftly carries military units to the site of
beginning rebellion which is swiftly and brutally repressed. Calculated
atrocities are used to inspire terror and serve as an example to others.

41. The harsh central government of a world does not completely control it.
One of the more important subject regions is secretly negotiating for
military assistance to overthrow the central government.

42. The many cultures and societies on this world with their different
religions, local institutions, customs, and languages are treated with
respect and tolerance and a minimum of interference by the world
government.
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:48:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In mail you write:

> At 10:13 AM 3/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>This one will be familiar to paratroopers, and can easily be adapted to
>>Traveller (substitute "space-sick" for "airsick"):
>
> Speaking of paratroopers..
>
> An old and hallowed tradition is the "cherry blaster helmet."
>
> On your first jump with your unit, you wear a special helmet. brightly
> colored with imaginative slogans (like "lawn dart"), spikes on top, etc.
>
> Think about what they'd do to jump troops on their first jump...

I'm curious. Has an experienced skydiver ever joined the paratroops and
kept it secret until *after* his first jump? I'm assuming (given human
nature) he'd pull *some* sort of weird stunt on said "first" jump. 

Now picture this with regards to jump troops. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:52:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In mail you write:

> Our barracks had three decks (floors) to it.  Bottom deck was the Rec Deck.

> ob trav.  Life in the barracks of a Regency MArCav training regiment.  When
> friendly rivalry sometimes isn't so friendly (at least for isolated
> perpetrators who get caught). 

A friend tells of being in the Army and running into the (then rare)
two-story barracks. Different companies on each floor. Made for lots of
rivalry. Supposedly the nastiest it got was the night that they made up
a batch of nitrogen iodide and spread it on the (outside!) stairs from
the second floor just after lights out. 

After giving it ample time to dry, someone tripped the fire alarm. 

Here come all these barefoor grunts onto the stairs. The layer of
nitrogen iodide was thin enough that it didn't hurt anyone when it
exploded. But between the startle factor and the gas "cushion"
generated, he said a lot of them went down the stairs on their asses
rather than their feet!

NB: I am *not* condoning this sort of thing. But I'm willing to bet
someone will try something equally stupid in the future.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 00:53:47 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

shadowcat wrote:
> 
> At 04:50 PM 3/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
> >> monsters, baby!
> >
> The Chamax are always up there on the nasty scale
> along with the Dyson from the old Judges Guild Adventure
> Darthanon Queen
> 
> The Nastiest thing I' ve thrown at one of my parties
> was something equivilant to the "DamnThing" from
> H. Beam Pipers Fuzzy Books
> 
> which was a cross between an African Rhino and an
> Arkansas Razorback Hog, but its not as nice.

If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of
PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
like the first group of PCs.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:26:34 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net> wrote?

>I seem to vaguely remember that movie, or one like it, from my
>childhood, not that I was allowed to actually go see it. ;-> Wasn't it
>late fifties, not sixties,and wasn't the village in England, not the
>US?  I was reminded of it when Pink Floyd did "The Wall", and again
>when "Children of the Corn" came out.

John Wyndam -  'The Chrysalids'?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:24:21 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         A favorite amongst Canadian Naval engineers is sending newbie from
> aft machinery compartment to ask the duty tech in the forward machinery
> compartment for "the long weight".... (parse with "wait" and you see the
> result ;)
>         "I need a bucket of prop-wash" is another common request.....

I always liked to send Middies out for 5 fathoms of  water line.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:41:18 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Evolution

- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 03 March 1999 04:47 PM
Subject: Re: Evolution


>ROFLMAO!! Can you all imagine a group of PCs captured by an unknown
>species in an unexplored sector and put into the local equivalent of a
>zoo?
>What kind of hoops could a cruel, twisted GM force them to jump through?
>
>Come on, people, give me your worst/best.


Sounds slightly similar to a situation in one of EE 'Doc' Smith's "Lensman"
stories  - Triplanetary, IIRC.   The heroes were captured by aliens and
taken home for investigation... not a lot happened really.  If you ain't
read the "Lensman" and "Skylark  of Space" stories, I heartily recommend
them.

Keep the Flame.
Jeff R.
"Who would want a motorized rock?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:53:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Evolution

>Sounds slightly similar to a situation in one of EE 'Doc' Smith's "Lensman"
>stories  - Triplanetary, IIRC.   The heroes were captured by aliens and
>taken home for investigation... not a lot happened really.  If you ain't
>read the "Lensman" and "Skylark  of Space" stories, I heartily recommend
>them.

I've read a short story about a group of humans being captured by aliens
and put in a zoo. They tried their best to make the aliens understand that
they were intelligent and not mere beasts: drawing the geometric stuff
about pythagoras theorem etc etc. If I remember correctly however some of
them gave up after a while and started living in the "cage". After a while
they found a cute little animal that they captured and held as a pet. This
of course made their captors realise that they were intelligent: Only
intelligent animals hold other animals captured just for fun.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:55:20 +1100
From: "Andy Long" <andrewlong@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Zhodani Interrogation

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:07:52 -0600
> Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation
> 
> Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
> >         IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's
> >         been quite a while. It was a sci-fi movie (60's?) in
> >         which all the women in a small town in the US become
> >         pregnant and give birth to telepathic emotionless
> >         children (some sort of alien plot, I think). 
> 
> I seem to vaguely remember that movie, or one like it, from my
> childhood, not that I was allowed to actually go see it. ;-> Wasn't
it
> late fifties, not sixties,and wasn't the village in England, not the
> US?  I was reminded of it when Pink Floyd did "The Wall", and again
> when "Children of the Corn" came out.
> 
> Eris
>
Originally known as 'The Midwitch Cuckoos' by John Wyndham...

Andy
============================================
Andrew Long		andrewlong@hotmail.com OR
1/49 Osborne Road	andy.long@fujitsu.com.au
Manly			+61 (2) 9977 1460 (Res)
NSW 2095		+61 (2) 9977 1460 (Fax)
Australia		+61 (414) 074 833 (Mobile)
============================================ 
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- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 03:21:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 09:48 PM 3/3/99 PST, you wrote:

>I'm curious. Has an experienced skydiver ever joined the paratroops and
>kept it secret until *after* his first jump? I'm assuming (given human
>nature) he'd pull *some* sort of weird stunt on said "first" jump. 

This is probably an Army legend, but I've always heard tales of the kid who
learned to jump as a teenager joining the Army, go to Airborne School, and
on his fifth (and final) jump in the school flaring in for a perfect
standing landing.  He was immediately bounced from the class for "failure
to perform a proper Parachute Landing Fall."

Pulling stunts in an Airborne unit is a good way to find yourself walking
for a living.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:37:42 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> 
> Richard Fields writes:
> "An interrogation may therefore go like this:
> 'Name?'
> ...    [Thinks 'A kilo of sausages, a length of string, 
>  wash the tea cup]"

>  A brick wall, a brick wall, a brick wall...
> 
>  (can you name the movie?)

"Village of the Damned." Excellent scene, btw. They do not do movies 
like that anymore... sigh!

ObTrav: If the Zhos mind probe the prisoner, will he really see the 
brick wall shattering in his mind?
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:42:28 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>  IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's

I should read al the accumulated Digest before answering. Sigh.
Anyway, the plot you describe is that of "Village of the Damned." 
There was a movie called "Children of the Damned," which was actually 
a second part. Have both in a videotape <grin> Thanks God for TNT 
Classic Movies...
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:47:21 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

> From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>

> Ian Ferguson wrote:
> >         IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's

> I seem to vaguely remember that movie, or one like it, from my
> childhood, not that I was allowed to actually go see it. ;-> Wasn't it
> late fifties, not sixties,and wasn't the village in England, not the
> US?  I was reminded of it when Pink Floyd did "The Wall", and again

Yes, in England. Both movies. "...another brick on the wall," eh, 
Eris? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:59:22 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Minor Human Races in the 3rd Imperium

> From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>

> Peter Newman wrote
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Remember that minor human races are minor in numbers as well.
> 
> That doesn't hold up for MHR that started out with the fledgling Imperium,
> like the Syleans or Answerin.  They should have been almost as numerous in
> colonizing new worlds as the Vilani and Solomani and so should be a large
> part of the general population today.

IIRC, it is stated somewhere in the original Alien modules that the 
Solomani-Vilani number 50% of the humans in the 3I, with the rest 
coming from MHR. Maybe in Alien Module n: Solomani.
 
> Also, the low numbers could also mean 'genetically pure' examples.  Syleans
> and Answerin could have been interbreeding with Vilani and Solomani since
> the start, and so your average modern Imperial could trace their ancestry
> back to them.  The reason MHR are restricted is more that they have isolated
> themselves, and less institutional racism.  Carlos Ferrers' Geonee seem to
> be a prime example of this.

Note: Alos-Ferrer, please, not Ferrer. Thanks. See
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~a4411may/stuff.html

> That doesn't mean the Geonee aren't subject to racism, just that
> they aren't helping matters any through their actions.

	Part of the idea, yes. Although there are other factors, lkike the 
fact that a large Geonee population implies a large Chirper 
population... after the 800, there is an added factor: some 
practices bordering Psionics (like "the calling") are implicit in 
Geonee society. Other customs may restrict other races. E.g., the 
Suerrat seem to be quite arboreal. Anything which limits 
adaptability, limits also the spread of a race.
 
	Also, remember that the Geonee do not consider themselves humans. 
They *are* the Old Ones, and all those pesky races, the Vilani, the 
Solomani, etc, they are just Children. Humans, you know. The very 
idea of doing *anbything* to be accepted by the human's society is 
Alien to the Geonee mindset.

(SNIP)
> To sum up, it appears that institutional racism has effected MHRs at least
> since the days of Cleon I.  Maybe not so malignant in the 1100s, but I'd say
> its still there.  BEMs, on the other hand, are pretty clearly victims of
> racism.

...and humans are victims of racism outside the Imperium, for that 
matter. Or even inside. Try accessing the Ancients Research Libraries 
in Shiwonee with a Solomani character. For that matter, try talking 
in Galanglic in Shiwonee ;->
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:50:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

>> It's possible. It's just not as likely as you might think. There really
>> *are* some sort of "signals" that lead to sexual arousal. And it is
>> quite possible to be *very* interested in someone and have the signals
>> be "wrong".
>
> [Warning: slight naughtiness follows]
>
> Unlikely, sure, but consider:
>
> The signals given off by photos in a magazine, or words in 
> a book, are highly, highly abstract, yet for some humans, 
> they can be more sexually compelling than actual living 
> people. 
>
> Thus, I contend that a sufficiently intelligent alien can 
> learn to "talk dirty, human style" in a manner sufficient 
> to get a human aroused enough to let things happen.

But I maintain that there will be a frustrating tendency to lose the
"proper frame of mind" at the wrong time.

> For some ideas on how human-alien sex might happen, Phil 
> Foglio's XXXenophile comics are a pretty good source. 
> Incredibly silly stuff, for the most part (easily the 
> funniest "porn" I've ever encountered), but there are some 
> thought-provoking ideas buried amongst the gags. 
>
> I'm thinking of one story in particular, where a human and
> an alien are pair-bonded for political reasons, and wind up 
> giving each other a "helping hand", initially out of mutual
> friendship and respect. Plausible enough, I think - the only 
> requirements are (1) body parts that convert friction into 
> pleasure, and (2) individuals, not necessarily typical, who
> aren't saddled with taboos about it. 

I rather liked the one where the Terran ambassador was a bit upset with
his wife for effectively *raping* him in front of an alien delegation
(who all figure it's just more of that odd primate behavior).

Then at end we find out that a couple of the alien delegation have been
just as "naughty", and went equally unnoticed by the humans!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:54:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>
>> Wasn't that Orion slave girl a hallucination?
>
> I think it was a cut and paste from the original pilot with Capt. Pike's crew
> and Chapel (later the nurse, then computer voice, then Troi's mother) as 
> No.2.

In the original pilot (and in the episode created from it) the slave
girl *then* was a hallucination. But one based on Captain Pike's recent
experiences....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:26:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution

In mail you write:

> ROFLMAO!! Can you all imagine a group of PCs captured by an unknown
> species in an unexplored sector and put into the local equivalent of a
> zoo?
> What kind of hoops could a cruel, twisted GM force them to jump through?
>
> Come on, people, give me your worst/best.

Ok, for starters, see if you can find a "natural foods" type outlet
that sells textured Vegetable Protien (TVP). This is a soy based meat
substitute. What you want are the chunk "beef" type. It'll look like
petrified dog kibble. If you've got strong teeth you can eat it as is.
It's normally soaked in water before adding it to a dish. 

Offer them some of their "rations" as a snack to get them in the mood.

Some of the indgnities to be expected are loss of clothing, as well as
"flea dip" type baths. Also, they should expect to be identified in one
of a number of ways. Possibly a *large* tattoo. Or a metal tag fastened
onto a handy flap of skin (ears, lips, and then we get *really* painful
and embarassing). There are also large plastic tags used for marking
livestock. They require a hole about the diameter of a pencil!

If the scientists are interested in *breeding* these strange animals,
it gets worse. The standard means of collecting a sperm sample in a
hurry amounts to restraining the creature, and sticking a modified
cattle prod up their ass until it's against the prostate. You then
switch it on, off, on in 10-30 second pulses. This *will* expel all the
sperm the critter has on hand. 

It's been used to get sperm for artificial insemination from
paraplegics. Even *they* hate it. According to someone involved in
developing the version used on people, it'd be more pleasant to get hit
with a sledge hammer. 

And if there are enough victims... err... characters on hand, the most
troublesome may get scheduled for vivisection so as to enable medical
treatment of the others...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:58:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

In mail you write:

> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
>>Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico, you can bet
>>the South Americans and North Americans would find themselves at the lowest
>>common denominator(i.e., "human") and band together to trap these things in
>>a cross-fire.  Scrambling for survival, there would be no time to tell the
>>black man to get to the back of the C-130.
>
> Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico, even a
> nuclear holocaust of the country isn't going to guarantee wiping them out.
> End of life on earth. Game over. Finis. Sic Transit Gloria Munda.

Read David Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr" books for a sample of
what it might be like for humanity to be on the losing end of a fight
for ecological niches on earth. 

It's nowhere near finished (and it may never get finished) so the issue
is very much in doubt. And frankly, given the way he's set things up,
I'm not sure that humanity *can* win. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:01:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

In mail you write:

> SD Mooney wrote:
>>
>> "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >Face it, if Ripley's "bitch" started dropping eggs in Mexico [...snip...]
>> 
>> Let's face it, if Ripley's Alien friend started spawning in Mexico, even a
>> nuclear holocaust of the country isn't going to guarantee wiping them out.
>> End of life on earth. Game over. Finis. Sic Transit Gloria Munda.
>
> How do you figure? If we can't wipe 'em out, then we all 
> start carrying machineguns and flamethrowers, and quality
> and security of life goes way down, but that's a long, 
> long way from "end of life on earth." Now, if Alien were
> tool-users, then I'd be scared...

Even if they aren't tool users, and given the first two movies (all
I've seen) there's not much evidence one way or the other, they'd still
be bad news.

Consider that they would *devastate* any ecology they got dropped into.
That alone could be the end. 

Of course, the Chtorr are worse. Being on the wrong end of a
"terraforming" project is not good. Especially when all the evidence
points towards the new ecosystem being one that's far *older* than
Earth's. In the sense of having had a billion or so more years
experience at coming out on top. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:11:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

In mail you write:

>
>>Ob; Trav... here's a new one for the Traveller culture
> wars;...cultural takes
>>on age and youth....
>
> It's called  "Logan's  Run"

And read the *book*. The movie took extreme liberties with the plot and
background. For one thing, in the book, it wasn't a city, it was the
entire *world*. And the color changes weren't 10, 20, 30 years. They
were 7, 14, and 21 years! Yep. You became "adult" at 14 and died at 21.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:21:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

In mail you write:

>>Nasty tricks for new arrivals?  Send 'em out for Long Weights, Left-handed
>>Screwdrivers, or green and brown camo paint; let 'em fix test kit costing
>>loadsamoney then stand behind 'em - with two metal trays - when they power
>>it up after fixing it - the list just goes on and on...
>
> Go to stores for a long wait. Oh yes, remember it well. On subs, telling
> someone to get permission to blow the TASO is quite good.
>
> (The TASO being the Torpedo & Sonar Officer, and not a tank that you
> might want to vent out to sea.)

I expect that some day soon there's going to be a *real* stink when a 
female PO pulls that one on a female or male recruit on a ship with a
male TASO...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:34:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Milieu E21 reply about spaceports

In mail you write:

> At 11:44 pm 3/1/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Clayton wrote:
>>
>>>Rob Eaglestone wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I wonder?  Anybody know if the shuttle lands at places other
> than
>>
>>>>     White Sands, New Mex?
>>>>
>>>IIRC, Edwards AirForce base in Califonia.  But I'm not to sure
> about
>>>that.
>>
>>Actual landing sites for the shuttle: Edwards AFB, and the cape in
>>Florida.
>>Florida is the prefered site now.
>>
>>Possible landing sites: White Sands NM, Reese AFB Lubbock TX (until
>>Lubbock destroys the runway), Spain and I think there is one other
>
>         Rapa Nui, aka Easter Island, is an alternate for failures which
> prevent Return to Base (RTB) and Abort to Orbit (ATO, also called
> once-around).

Only if you are launching from Vandenberg. :-)

> G. Harry Stine, under his Lee Correy pseudonym, wrote a
> marvelous novel called "Shuttle Down" about just such an event ...
> and identified a whole string of issues which NASA hadn't considered.
> IIRC, they basically agreed with everything he found, and implemented
> changes.

It's kinda scary really. The book was re-issued just in time for the
Challenger explosion....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #248
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, March 4 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 249



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Zhodani Interrogation
Re: Pranks
Re: Evolution (Was Smallpox)
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Imperial Crusades (was: Imperial Religion)
Re: Evolution
Re: 'Low Tech' Does Not Mean 'Low Brow' (longish)
Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Russian Doll
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #248
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Re American English
Re: Vampires in Traveller?
Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
re: Nastiest Monster

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:17:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Zhodani Interrogation

In mail you write:

> Ian Ferguson wrote:
>
>>         IIRC it was called 'Children of the Damned', but it's
>>         been quite a while. It was a sci-fi movie (60's?) in
>>         which all the women in a small town in the US become
>>         pregnant and give birth to telepathic emotionless
>>         children (some sort of alien plot, I think). 
>
> I seem to vaguely remember that movie, or one like it, from my
> childhood, not that I was allowed to actually go see it. ;-> Wasn't it
> late fifties, not sixties,and wasn't the village in England, not the
> US?  I was reminded of it when Pink Floyd did "The Wall", and again
> when "Children of the Corn" came out.

The *original* was a book by John Wyndham titled "The Midwich Cuckoos".
The name is a reference to the habit of cuckoos of laying their eggs in
the nests of other birds.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:38:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pranks

In mail you write:

>>Here's what me and a friend did on our recruit course.
>>
>>We dressed up like the Orderly Officer and the Duty  NCO, and marched
>>into the female barracks at 1pm, and yelled "SNAP INSPECTION" and with
>>appropriate swearing and yelling got them all standing to attention.
>
> Isn't impersonating a commissioned officer a Federal Offense?  A sure court
> martial?
>
>>At this point the lights were still off, so they couldn't see us.
>
> So dressing up was needless?
>
>> We
>>then marched to the end of the dormitory, took a single flash
>>photograph,  said "Thank you, ladies" and leapt out the end window
>>before they could get us.
>
> I'm surprised you could find your way.  I took a picture at night with a
> flash when in a foxhole and was pretty well blinded, wondering if I had
> permanently ruined my eyesight.

You close your eyes before you press the trip.

I used to use the old "Magicube" flash cubes as "grenades" during
nighttime capture the flag games in Boy Scouts. They are *mechanically*
triggered. There's a spring arm "cocked" and held in place by a very
short post. There's slot in the case under it. push something thru the
slot, and the arm gets pushed above the stop. It then snaps forward
against what amounts to an underpowered percussion cap on the base of
the bulb.

Sure, it gave away my position to use it. But anybody looking my way at
the time was out of action until they got their night vision back. :-)
I used to "close your eyes" bit and never had any trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:03:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution (Was Smallpox)

In mail you write:

> Book Title Orphan of Creation
> By Roger MacBride Allen
> ISBN 0-7088-4959-8

That's the book all right! But I thought it was "Orphans", not "Orphan"?

> On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 05:09:12 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Said
>
> In mail you write:
>
>> On 03/01/99 at 01:10 PM, steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>
> SNIP
>
> There's a book by an SF author (I can't recal the title or author at
> the moment) that has a anthropologist (or maybe paleontologist) visting
> the family home in the South (her family wound up owning the old
> plantation they'd been slaves on).
>
> SNIP
>
> I won't spoil the story by continuing. If someone recognizes the author
> and title from my description, *please* post them. The book would be a
> gold mine for any ref trying to have any of our "cousin" species show
> up as the population of a world.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:08:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

In mail you write:

> First off, I would like to thank each and every one of you who have
> responded to my posts in the past (Thank you, thank you, thank you... ad
> nauseum)
>
> Apparently some Hollyweird film co has decided to make a film about the
> capture of the 'Enigma' code machine from a German U-Boat by an American
> destroyer into a film - the only problem is that it was a British convoy
> escort that did the dirty deed.

I'm sure that Admiral Gallery would be surprised to hear this.

The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago
Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
destruct charges. 

I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:33:36 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

From:           	shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date sent:      	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:08:02 PST

>In mail you write:

>> Apparently some Hollyweird film co has decided to make a film about the
>> capture of the 'Enigma' code machine from a German U-Boat by an American
>> destroyer into a film - the only problem is that it was a British convoy
>> escort that did the dirty deed.

>I'm sure that Admiral Gallery would be surprised to hear this.

>The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago
>Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
>led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
>destruct charges. 

>I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
>of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
>engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.

Uhmm, the first Enigma machine was captured in Czechoslovakia in either
1938 or 1939 (my memory is a little vague at the moment). I'm fairly sure
it occured before September 1939. It was then handed over to the British
who duely passed on the information to the US. I think what was captured in
the U-boats was Ultra, the system the Germans had as the backup in case
Enigma was cracked. Enigma itself was a fairly simple device to decypher
once you had a machine, getting the new cypher wheels was just a matter
of number crunching (albeit massive number crunching).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:55:02 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
> Date: Thursday, 04 March, 1999 5:08 AM
> 
> In mail you write:
> > Apparently some Hollyweird film co has decided to make a film about the
> > capture of the 'Enigma' code machine from a German U-Boat by an
American
> > destroyer into a film - the only problem is that it was a British
convoy
> > escort that did the dirty deed.
> 
> I'm sure that Admiral Gallery would be surprised to hear this.
> 
> The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago
> Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
> led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
> destruct charges. 
> 
> I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
> of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
> engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.
> 

There would be the (temporary) capture of U110 by HMS Bulldog in May 1941
off the Irish coast, which yielded not only cipher tables but a functioning
Enigma machine.  The sub sank under tow.

There was an even more dramatic incident in which a British boarding party
from HMS Petard went aboard the sinking U-559 in the Med in September 1942
with the intention of capturing both code books and cipher machines.  I
know they got codes, and I think another Enigma machine as well.  Two of
the boarders lost their lives when the sub sank with them still aboard.

As you say, in all of these cases (and the ambush and capture of the
weather trawlers), the key books were the most valuable captures.  However,
having physical copies of the machines helped to codebreaker s a good deal,
even after they knew how it worked.  Getting new rotor configurations was
the most valuable benefits, but there were occasionally changes made to the
machine itself which slowed the decryption process.

(Based on David Kahn's "Seizing the Enigma")

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:18:27 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Crusades (was: Imperial Religion)

At 16:00 03/03/1999 EST, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>I noticed this when browsing the back digests of the tml I had skimmed,
due >to the... other discussions I was involved in.  ;-)  I happen to have
studied
>these a bit (Steven Runciman's 3 Volume work is the definitive, covering all
>sides, parties, and participents in a year by year fashion).  

Thanks for your corrections.

My source was Terry Jones (of Monty Python fame) and a series he
did for the BBC. So I could be wrong on some details...

;-)

I'm a bit better read for French medieval history, but I still wouldn't
care to use the word "studied".

<snip>

>> Finally, there has to be someone who will understand the true meaning
>> of the HIE's words and take a fleet into the Two Thousand Worlds to
>> break their ban on beef imports.
>
>lol.  That sounds funny.  It was meant to be right?

You guessed my intent correctly. :-)

>...  The HIE has beef imports on the top of his list? ;-)

Depends if the HIE's best friend noble on the K'Kree border controls lots
of Ag worlds. :-)

I was actually thinking along the line of the Opium Wars between UK and
China last century, where they (the Chinese) had banned one of our few
exports for which there was actually a market in China.

But the parallel with the BSE Beef ban and our previous prime minister
trying to get it lifted did appeal.

Also when trying to find trade goods worth shipping around the stars,
foods that for whatever reason cannot be grown well in space farms
or on unsuitable planets might form a significant part.

Think of the value of coffee trade, or the looming "bannana war".

>> The result of all this?
>> Well it could be a strong, centrally controlled and unified Imperium.
>> It could be a race to see which of its enemies reaches Core first.
>
>Now that sounds interesting. :-)  Course, imagine what happens when the
>weakness turns out to be from within (one of the Archukes... say from
Ilelish)
>and not from without.  That results in a 14 year civil war (aka Rebellion) of
>nearly a dozen factions that results in a dangerous AI uncontrollable
>superweapon being released, which paves the way for adventure and politics
ala
>post-Rome Europe...  

Paralleling Medieval French History does lead to the problems France had
with all its borders (the English, Swiss, Italians, Flemmish) its war
with Spain and finally Religious Civil War.

(Un)fortunately the parallel breaksdown because France didn't breakup. 8-S

Phil

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:19:34 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Evolution

> In mail you write:
> > ROFLMAO!! Can you all imagine a group of PCs captured by an unknown
> > species in an unexplored sector and put into the local equivalent of a
> > zoo?
> > What kind of hoops could a cruel, twisted GM force them to jump through?
> >
> > Come on, people, give me your worst/best.

OK, you asked for it.

There is another animal species which looks vaguely similar to humans 
to these aliens. Like that animal in Kuzu. Only that it is repulsive, 
a giant gorilla-like critter.

And the aliens wonder if the human are a subspecies, so they decide 
to check if the humans and that critter are interfertile.... 
cheap methods, just spill feromones of the critter over the humans 
and put them in the critters cage.

Now that I stop to think about it, half the sector where my players 
are is inexplored...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:32:41 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 'Low Tech' Does Not Mean 'Low Brow' (longish)

> - Blood grouping certainly possible, as is other serology (e.g. viral
> titres). Storing sera (for grouping purposes) and blood is a real
> problem without reliable refrigeration.
> Whole blood is typically donated and transfused on the spot.

You can make reliable air conditining, at GTL 0, with cloth netting and a
water supply. Also you can design and implement Air Con in GTL 0 buildings,
with a water supply. Not relaible refrigeration though.

As long as you can make metal canisters (GTL 1 ?) that can contain liquid
gases (Oxygen, Nitrogen etc) you can have reliable refriguration. The process
of getting liquid gasses is one were use us evaboration to lower the temp of
one gas to liquid, use that to lower the next gas to liquid, all the way down
to about 10 Kelvin. If you can do this then you can have reliable refrigeration.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:55:17 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> It's called  "Logan's  Run"

And read the *book*. The movie took extreme liberties with the plot and
background. For one thing, in the book, it wasn't a city, it was the
entire *world*. And the color changes weren't 10, 20, 30 years. They
were 7, 14, and 21 years! Yep. You became "adult" at 14 and died at 21.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing I enjoyed about the book was the way the author subtly (and
not-so-subtly) showed the stagnation of society now that there were no
elders. There were unfinished projects everywhere (like the flame-crystal
sculpture of the burning of Washington DC - the artist reached age 21,
and took the secret of flame-crystal with him to the grave). Technical
items had simplistic names, indicating to me that the people were losing
understanding of their tools. The Sandman didn't use a snub pistol or
dart launcher, he used a Gun. The New-You Clinic didn't have an autodoc
or a cybernetic surgery unit, it had a Table. Arcade, Stick...the list goes
on.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:14:44 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

>There was also a Traveller adventure in one of the old JTAS's called 
"Day of
>the Glow," the storyline was that a bio-weapon (a contagious version 
of...
>porphiria? I probably mangled the spelling) broke out on a planet. The
>disease made folks act in a very vampire-like fashion.

Interesting:I'd never seen that but had a long term plotline quite 
similar.


<snip>
goofy space vampire...
>
>It was part of a series of adventures that this poor crew found 
themselves
>involved with. Mostly derivative and juvenile, but fun to write at the 
time.
>;^)
>You know, writing should be fun for the author. If its not, then maybe 
they nee to rethink the line of work they chose...
:)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 09:16:30 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Russian Doll

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
"
Steve Daniels writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Eris Reddoch writes:
..."

	Sorry, I just couldn't resist :)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:21:44 -0000
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #248

>Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

>> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>> >> monsters, baby!
The Grendels from Niven's 'Legacy of Heorot' can be extremely nasty when they go on 'speed'.
And when you've killed all the adults your troubles are just starting...
ALO


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:27:13 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

In mail from Shadow,-

<<SNIP>>
>Read David Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr" books for a sample of
>what it might be like for humanity to be on the losing end of a fight
>for ecological niches on earth.
<<UNSNIP>>

GURPS has a sourcebook for WAtC; I was wondering if it was worth getting as
an aid for Traveller - now I guess it probably is (if it is still there when
I go back...)


Jeff R.
"I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things.
More I cannot say."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:28:49 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re American English

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BE664B.51A37600
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

SNAFU.  Should have read=20
*McDonnel Douglas AV8B* =3D stolen from the Brits.
Oh well.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jeffrey Rowse <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
    To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
    Date: 03 March 1999 04:58 PM
    Subject: Re American English
   =20
   =20
    (Another) One in a list of 10000000000000000000000000000000000
    Lift =3D Elevator
    =20
    BAe Harrier  =3D stolen from the Brits  ;)

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BE664B.51A37600
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>SNAFU.&nbsp; Should have read =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>*McDonnel =
Douglas AV8B* =3D=20
stolen from the Brits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oh well.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Jeffrey Rowse &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk">jeff.rowse@farnhome.f=
reeserve.co.uk</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=
=20
    </B>03 March 1999 04:58 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re American=20
    English<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>(Another) One in a list of=20
    10000000000000000000000000000000000</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lift =3D Elevator</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>BAe Harrier&nbsp; =3D stolen =
from the=20
    Brits&nbsp; ;)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BE664B.51A37600--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:29:42 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vampires in Traveller?

>
>AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Oh, Great Caesar's ghost!   Can't I be safe from Vampie-freaks even 
in
>> Traveller ;-)
>>


I always considered the "Vampire Freaks" to be the guys who wanted to 
roleplay one...

When I grew up, vampires were the BAD GUYS! maybe we do live in a more 
"kinder, gentler" world...

;)
Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:48:57 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dice rolling in PBEMs

>> I'm in his BTE PBEM and more than content to let him roll or pretend 
to roll.



>Or no doubts on the player side about the fact that a fumble occurs 
>with 1/36 probability. And, by Murphy's Law, at the most 
>inappropriate moments.


As a referee for a PBEM game, I cannot help to to find the above highly 
amusing.

On a side note, I allow the players to tell me what they rolled if it is 
a minor plot item, but for serious stuff, i handle it. I got a cute 
little die roller from some Trav site that can give me what I need for 
an instant roll, so I can reply to the email without fishing for the 
little red cubes located god knows where in my stuff at home...

Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 09:52:43 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

I once used 'Deathworld' by Harry Harrison as the basis for
an adventure. Pyrus is a mean, nasty place with numerous
deadly creatures and plenty of very dangerous and 
bad-tempered humans (I considered Pyrans a subspecies). 
(I must timidly admit that I actually used this adventure
in a STRPG game, but I have it in reserve for MTU)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:21:23 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

At 12:53 AM 3/4/99 -0600, you wrote:
>shadowcat wrote:
>> 
>> At 04:50 PM 3/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>> >> monsters, baby!
>> >
>> The Chamax are always up there on the nasty scale
>> along with the Dyson from the old Judges Guild Adventure
>> Darthanon Queen
>> 
>> The Nastiest thing I' ve thrown at one of my parties
>> was something equivilant to the "DamnThing" from
>> H. Beam Pipers Fuzzy Books
>> 
>> which was a cross between an African Rhino and an
>> Arkansas Razorback Hog, but its not as nice.
>
>If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
>request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of
>PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
>hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
>like the first group of PCs.)
>

I've pulled a similar stunt on several ocassions.  The time it worked best
(as far as role playing goes) was in and AD&D game.  The players were an all
good group of mostly CGs.  Very little party unity and a great deal of inter
party compitition for loot.  The group was mostly levels 9 and 10 on your
basic dungen crawl.  I threw into the mix an equal sized group of level 7/8
lawfull evils with the same mix of character classes BUT the LEs where
operating in cooperation and using well prepared and trained combat
techniques.  The use 'room clearence' methods, infiltrate and exfiltrate
procedures, scouting and base security proceedures and the concept of never
giving a sucker and even break.  The PCs were running for their lives after
the first two scermishes.  (The LEs retreated in good order under cover of
spells and missle fire in the first encounter when they lost the iniative
only to ambush the PC when they left the dugeon to rest and recover.)  The
'Dungeon Hunters' became a reoccuring enemy that the PC just could not seem
to completely defeat.  The PCs often found dead monsters and looted chests
if they were just a little to slow following up on a lead.  They learned to
NEVER leave their goods or base camp ungaurded and to CYA at all times.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:48:25 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

>And read the *book*. The movie took extreme liberties with the plot and

Read the books!  Remember there were three books.

>understanding of their tools. The Sandman didn't use a snub pistol or
>dart launcher, he used a Gun. The New-You Clinic didn't have an autodoc

Yes, and what a gun, it was a six-shooter, with each chamber carrying a
different load, IIRC.  Such as "Tangler", "Ripper", etc.

				Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:49:51 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Nastiest Monster

Shadowcat wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
>request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of
>PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
>hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
>like the first group of PCs.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll never forget the look of fear on my player's faces in the midst of a
Champions game...when one of them softly said, "We're f**ked. They're
thinking like player characters..."

<weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #249
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, March 4 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 250



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Hardback
Re: Doggie Breath
Game systems (was Vampires...)
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)
Re: Nastiest Monster
Ends and Odds (mostly minis)
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Nastiest Monster
Admin: Regarding Clif
Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings
Scout tender
Re:  smallpox
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
Lensmen series
Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings
Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:13:19 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Traveller Hardback

Gentles,

Just a heads up for thoise of you who haven't bought one and want one: we
have less than 200 of these left in the warehouse (there are probably more
in the distribution chain, but not many). If you want one, you need to grab
it soon.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:00:00 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Doggie Breath

>>While breeding is
>>impossible and who would want to kiss something with doggie
>>breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there
>>8^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species
>>couldn't find something in common which attracted them to one
>>another and kept them together for the long term.
>
>Challenge 49.  There's an article about Mendan sector and the
>Julian Protectorate, in which something called the "panet"
>relationship is described.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin


Would that be similar to the Life-Debt concept keeping Chewbacca at Han 
Solo's side?
:)
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:17:36 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Game systems (was Vampires...)

In point of fact, I considered using the Deep Space book and the
>>CP2020/ FNFF Rules to run a "Traveller" game...  Then I went back to 
my CT
>>books and fell in love again...  =)
>
>
>I considered it for TNE.... CP2020 seemed less complex. But hey, MT 
would
>work just as well.
>
>Dom

I have recently "fallen in love" with classic traveller again as well. 
I've been trying to rebuild my old collection of books from long ago.

You know, from a referee's perspective, MT had the best system of just 
about any I've worked with. It was quick, and the players knew just how 
it worked with just a little bit of instruction.
I kinds wish T5 would consider it again...
<heavy sigh>

Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:36:38 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
> of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
> engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.

The German Admiralty had added a fith weel to the Enigma (IIRC) and capturing
the new keys put Bletchley back on track.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:36:47 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)

As a game master, I'd like to request the opinions of this list for the 
attributes of the "Nastiest Monster".

What makes an encountered "monster" the most terrifying?

I have used vampires, assassination robots, large critters with "big, 
huge, nasty teeth!" <insert proper finger motion here>, and mentally 
unstable humans before in games, but I'd like to know what everyone else 
finds really unnerving in a foe/beastie.

(The items below were good ideas, but they vary highly on the individual 
traits.)

Looking for opinions...

Roger Barr
(now I know my PBEM players are getting nervous...)
<WEG>




>> At 04:50 PM 3/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them 
non-human
>> >> monsters, baby!
>> >
>> The Chamax are always up there on the nasty scale
>> along with the Dyson from the old Judges Guild Adventure
>> Darthanon Queen

>> which was a cross between an African Rhino and an
>> Arkansas Razorback Hog, but its not as nice.
>
>If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
>request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group 
of
>PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
>hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
>like the first group of PCs.)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:49:19 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

>> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>> >> monsters, baby!

A group of 36 Ancient psionic Droyne warriors with Ancient 
armor/weapons, trained to act as an integrated unit,
who wake up under fire to find their own base infiltrated
and under assault with no "friendlies" in the area.

All run by a GM who is intimately familiar with the
Traveller psi rules and special ops tactics and had
3 months to study the area of engagement.

The adventure was "Twilight's Peak" by Marc Miller. The
GM was an ex-Marine recon-type.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:52:02 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Ends and Odds (mostly minis)

Greetings All:

A few notes...

I recently purchased a bunch of T:TNE minis from my friend Mike at Dragon's
Trove. Interesting to note was that several of the RAFM ship minis have been
repackaged and are appearing under similar class names in the Mekton line of
minis. 

I don't know how old the Mekton minis are, but the ships are exactly
identical! I've spotted the traders as well as the "butt ugly" scout ship that
you all know and love among the Mekton minis that I bought.

I now have all of the RAFM ships, several copies of each. Pirate encounters
anyone?

I also have been searching for--without too much success--the Martian Metals
figures. I've got some dupes (mostly the K'kree), but some packs are utterly
impossible to find: the various adventurers, the Striker sets, etc.

A little easier to find was the Laserburn line. In fact, I've probably got
(including dupes) about 20 or so packs. Does anybody know if these are still
being made by anybody! If I can't find the Martians, I might as well get the
unofficial equals!

Thanks!

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)
(Amateur Astronomer Since 1965 or thereabouts...)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:24:41 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

In message <990304.010154.0w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>Of course, the Chtorr are worse. Being on the wrong end of a
>"terraforming" project is not good. Especially when all the evidence
>points towards the new ecosystem being one that's far *older* than
>Earth's. In the sense of having had a billion or so more years
>experience at coming out on top. 

I know someone who cited the fact that the Chtorr trilogy finished after
two books as proof of the existance of a benevolent God.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:00:22 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

>If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
>request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of
>PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
>hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
>like the first group of PCs.)

Which is why, of course, I put in "non-human" in the first place. ;-)

ObTrav: Describe the nastiest human/non-monster alien NPC you have ever
inflicted on your player characters in a Traveller game.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:14:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

In a message dated 3/4/99 5:17:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< 
 There would be the (temporary) capture of U110 by HMS Bulldog in May 1941
 off the Irish coast, which yielded not only cipher tables but a functioning
 Enigma machine.  The sub sank under tow.
  >>

I thought the recommissioned her as HMS Graph?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:57:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> 
> >> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
> >> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
> >> >> monsters, baby!
> 
> A group of 36 Ancient psionic Droyne warriors with Ancient
> armor/weapons, trained to act as an integrated unit,
> who wake up under fire to find their own base infiltrated
> and under assault with no "friendlies" in the area.
> 
> All run by a GM who is intimately familiar with the
> Traveller psi rules and special ops tactics and had
> 3 months to study the area of engagement.
> 
> The adventure was "Twilight's Peak" by Marc Miller. The
> GM was an ex-Marine recon-type.


Ouch!!! How long did it take you all to roll up new characters...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:00:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Apparently some Hollyweird film co has decided to make a film about the
> > capture of the 'Enigma' code machine from a German U-Boat by an American
> > destroyer into a film - the only problem is that it was a British convoy
> > escort that did the dirty deed.
> 
> I'm sure that Admiral Gallery would be surprised to hear this.
> 
> The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago
> Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
> led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
> destruct charges.
> 
> I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
> of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
> engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.

Well, you mean aside from tearing apart the Enigma that the Poles got to
Bletchley in about '39 or so?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:40:03 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>I think the British incident you are thinking of involved getting a set
>of the new *keys*. The folks at Bletchley Park had pretty much reverse
>engineered the Enigma without much help from either of these exploits.

They used the U-Boat data to break the Naval Enigma (Shark?). They had
reverse engineered the Enigma before that, but needed some repetition to
decode IIRC. There's a new book on the code breaking out called 'Station
X'. I have it (and watched the UK Channel 4 series) but haven't had a
chance to read it yet.

Bletchley park did some amazing things, including the first true computer.
But they weren't allowed to reveal it and Churchill ordered the destruction
of the Bombs and the records to conceal the expertise.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:28:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

	Hmm, which was the nastiest monster I've ever set on my players? 
Boy that's hard to pick! Let's see, there were the four-dimensional
"Legion" group-mind creatures which could effectively "teleport" all over
the place and were utterly immune to any normal weapon fire.  There were
the evil mind-controlling flowers of the planet Shimmer which enslaved
people until they died of exhaustion.  Oh, and let's not forget the
neurophagic Von Neumann nanomachine plague (ya, that was NASTY!). 
Actually, these are all pretty non-standard, I think the original poster
was looking for "animals", so I think my worst was probably a
genetically-engineered species of regenerating crystalline spiders with a
thick diamond coating for armor and the ability to generate laser blasts
from a spot on their backs (The Chamax are for wusses! :-). 

	Yup, more than once I've had players insisting that they not be
left alone (and they usually didn't want their characters left alone
either :-).

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:28:56 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Admin: Regarding Clif

Well, I've taken a couple of days to digest the opinions on the matter of 
Clif, his posting style and behavior.  Replies have trickled down to near 
nothing now.

While a few people specifically asked for his removal, a majority felt that 
he really hadn't done anything to warrant removal or if he were to be 
removed, those two or three "Anti-Clif" people should also be removed 
because their postings are as disruptive and harmful, if not more than Clif's.

Since I haven't seen a lot of Clif's behavior that of late warrants 
removal, I'm not going to do for it.  I would still like to hear Clif's 
opinion on the matter.

Based on comments made,  I have the following statements that I want to 
make to the list on the matter:

1.  You don't have to reply to every message.  Several people feel that 
Clif replies to every message even when replies are not warranted.  This 
may be true.  He seems to have a high number of short messages.   You need 
to reply if you have something to add, but don't feel that you have to say 
something.  "Me Toos" or "Last Words" cause threads to ramble 
endlessly.   A better course of action is to read all the messages of a 
thread, then reply to the one that most intrigues you, then add in your 
comments that you want to make to the other posts.  This will make each 
post more meaningful and we will have less short bursts.

2.  If someone on the list's general behavior is something you don't like, 
ignore it, kill it or filter it.  Most people who responded felt that Clif 
does add to the common good, though not all the time.  I'm sure that others 
may not like you and may file 13 your messages before they read them and 
I'm sure you do that to others.  I'm only going to step in on harsh 
language, real threats,  or someone who is blatantly flame baiting 
someone.  Clif is borderline in these areas but hasn't pushed the threshold 
yet since coming back from his 30 days.

3.  Follow the "24 hour" rule.  If you get ticked off at someone, or if 
someone says something that really sets your hair of fire, step back, come 
back to the message tomorrow, re-read it when your emotions cool off, see 
if they were a) joking, b) saying the truth that you may not like to hear, 
or c) you just took it wrong.  Then if you need to reply.  I promise, that 
things will work out better.  I got this advice once from a boss and it 
really works, honest!!!!

4.  Everyone needs to keep on topic.  If you see an off topic post, or if 
an on topic thread heads off topic, stop replying.  As long as people post 
on a topic that thread will live.  So if the Religion of the Zhodani turns 
into the Religion of the Solomani, which turns into the Religion of the 
Roman Empire, which leads to the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland, 
then you have gone off topic and it should stop.

I understand that we draw analogies with things we know (real world) to 
help us understand the fantasy world, and its fine as long as we don't go 
discussing the real world issues in a real world context.

5.  We need to remember that the Internet is a growing entity.  Computers 
are reaching into homes and work places where people are struggling to 
learn what a computer is.  Using an analogy, that may get me flamed, 
consider that the Internet was once a club for PhD holding Astrophysicists 
at a university.  Now freshmen and even high schoolers can join the 
club.  The maturity level is lowering.  A more diverse cultural and social 
world is becoming wired.  The Internet is available to those who can't 
coherently write a letter.

Instead of blowing a stack because someone is writing from a level (be it 
social, maturity, educational, or cultural) that is different that your 
own, you have to learn to accept them and either ignore them, help them, or 
try to see the topic from their point of view.  Those of us old timers are 
just going to have to modify our behavior to compromise with those who 
don't understand what their behavior needs to be.

If everyone can take a minute to digest all this, and then step back and 
look at your own postings and say "Am I doing the right thing?" then this 
list will evolve to a much better haven.

In summary:  Clif, you need to post less frequent, more meaningful and 
thought out Traveller oriented messages, following 
net-etiquette.  Anti-Clif' people either filter him or accept him.  If you 
reach in the middle, you will find that things work well.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:35:01 -0600
From: Tom Floyd <tmfloyd@usit.net>
Subject: Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings

Jeff Groteboer wrote:

>         1) Could someone offer a _rough_ estimate of how many officers
> are present in the
> ship's troops?
>

<snipped>

> Jeff, in Robert Heinlein's book "Starship Troopers" he gives a pretty good
> formula for determining Officer/ratings percentages on pg.165.  I think
> this would work very well in the Traveller universe.

Tom Floyd

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:44:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Scout tender

Anyone else noticed that the scout tender has a size listed of 60M long x
30M wide x 12M tall, is supposed to be able to enclose a pair of x-boats in
it's bay (IIRC), and that an x-boat at it's widest diameter is also 12M?  I
hate it when that happens.  Realised that since the Donosev's now completely
done and I'm moving right along on the Tender.  As an FYI for the interested
parties out there, when I do the Sulieman I'm going to be taking
step-by-step screenshots of the whole process for a "How to Build a
Traveller Starship" tutorial to be posted on my website.  Figured it'd be
easiest with that one as there aren't a whole bunch of seperate mapped
surfaces on one of those.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:09:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:  smallpox

Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:51:02 -0800, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
>Why not?  If bacteria can exploit the humans, why not viruses?

Bacteria can utilize chemicals common to all living organisms
(amino acids, or even just reduced carbon).  Viruses have
to be able to slip your genome.  You can't catch a virus from
most of the species in your own biosphere, let alone form
a species in another biosphere.

>Terrans get cross species virus infection because, among other reasons, we
>live so close to animals.

And because they are so closly related to them.  If you look at
a genomic tree of the biosphere, that monkey or chicken you catch
something from are close cousins.

>While they couldn't eat them, don't Vilani have
>domesticated animals too?

Animals from a completely different genetic root.

>Of course, a Vlandish virus would have to be able to handle Terran DNA, so
>that could be a big stumbling block there.

That is indeed the big block...

>  Since I'm no microbiologist let
>me know if this is totally off course.  Then again, since the Plague of
>Duskir is canon...

The plague is reasonable if it is viral (the Vilani resistance to
viruses has faded).  If it is bacterial, then it doesn't make
much sense.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:27:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Share, please!  My AKUS group may be heading into the great unknown
> one of these days and having them run into some humans-not quite
> humans is something I've been thinking about.

What is AKUS?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:37:52 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Lensmen series

If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print again.
The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
worth it, my oldest kid wanted *my* set).
The SciFi Book club also has the first three available in a single hardcover.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free 
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be 
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:13:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

- ---"Zane H. Healy"  wrote:

> >understanding of their tools. The Sandman didn't use a snub pistol or
> >dart launcher, he used a Gun. The New-You Clinic didn't have an
autodoc
> 
> Yes, and what a gun, it was a six-shooter, with each chamber
carrying a
> different load, IIRC.  Such as "Tangler", "Ripper", etc.
 
You do remember correctly. Add "Homer" to the list And I believe a
grenade
was also there.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:04:18 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings

In a message dated 3/4/99 12:43:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, tmfloyd@usit.net
writes:

<<  Jeff, in Robert Heinlein's book "Starship Troopers" he gives a pretty good
 > formula for determining Officer/ratings percentages on pg.165.  I think
 > this would work very well in the Traveller universe.
  >>

Yeah; but even Heinlein admits it's a barebones TOE with very little support
staff. I guess for shipboard use this is OK (the service section supports
them?), but for ground use; I would use AT LEAST the striker campaign rules
(they add mechanics, trransport, medical staff, supplies).

Ob Trav: let the PC's blow all their money on shiny toys; then let them have
it when they break down for lack of maintanence and spare parts, let them go
hungry when they run out of food, let them die for lack of medical care, let
them run out of ammo, etc. The pros DO still study logisitics I presume? Help
me out here Gary, and Doug, etc...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:27:30 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Pongo's Lucky Shot

>> Go to stores for a long wait. Oh yes, remember it well. On subs, telling
>> someone to get permission to blow the TASO is quite good.
>>
>> (The TASO being the Torpedo & Sonar Officer, and not a tank that you
>> might want to vent out to sea.)


ROFLMAO

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:46:53 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

Leonard wrote:

>The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago

>Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
>led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
>destruct charges.

Captain Gallery commanding a jeep carrier with 3? destroyers as
escorts.  He wa in command but did not enter the sub until it was safely
in tow.  Also it his idea to capture the sub, orders were to sink any
sub seen.
(I read his book on this incedent)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:56:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

Better to say _who_ is AKUS...Akus Moby, the great-...-great ^n
grandfather of a number of the player characters who just died a couple
of months ago (he spent _lots_ of time, in the dawn of the era of star
travel, on relatavistic ships) leaving us his starship, the Mae Lee.

The catch: we were several systems away, had never heard of him, or all
our other cousins, and to get clear title to the ship (a 1000 t
exploratory merchant) we have to live and work together on the ship for
seven years.

Easy, right? ;-)

Well, we were involved in one murder aboard a starship in jump, one
exploding starship (fortunately _not_ in jump).

We now have an unknown enemy, who has tried to kill us, is likely the
one who killed Akus. 

Three other player-characters are in as minority partners, and one has
some stuff lined up to make us all rich if we if we don't all kill each
other first.

Oh yeah, one other thing, no one knows _where_ the ship is right now...

And we just found out some rich noble on the world we're at, in whose
courts the will has been probated, has taken an interest in us and has
volunteered to be the Court's Agent to make sure we actually meet the
terms of the will.

The game started _realtime_, what a year ago?? and we have managed to
play out about a _month_ game time. (I left out the side trip to a
tourist attraction where we found an Ancients site)

To top it all off...this is all set in Eris' Heretic Traveller Universe.

Having a blast!! ;-)

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > Share, please!  My AKUS group may be heading into the great unknown
> > one of these days and having them run into some humans-not quite
> > humans is something I've been thinking about.
> 
> What is AKUS?
> 
> --
> Bloo
> Resounding Technology
> Creators of RogerWilco
> http://www.resounding.com/

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #250
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, March 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 251



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

OT - Fred Kiesche
Nastiest Human (was Nastiest Monster)
the nastiest monster
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Nastiest Human (was Nastiest Monster)
Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.
Sand Caster Question
OT: Aliens
Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: OT: Aliens
Re: Orphan of Creation
Re: OT: Aliens [now with ObTrav!]
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Scout tender
Re: Ends and Odds (mostly minis)
Re: Sand Caster Question
Re: Ends and Odds (mostly minis)
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: [debate]  volume of debate so far
Robo-Rifle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:06:40 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT - Fred Kiesche

Fred,

I tried to respond to your mail but aol refused my message.

Please contact me off list -  I think your anti-spam is working.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:28:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Nastiest Human (was Nastiest Monster)

<Joseph R. Dietrich>
ObTrav: Describe the nastiest human/non-monster alien NPC you have ever
inflicted on your player characters in a Traveller game.
</Joseph R. Dietrich>

Hmm, I think that would be Tanaya Zintrani, the schizophrenic teleporting
ultra-vixen martial arts master Zhodani assasin chick extraordinaire.
Heavily cybered up, she managed to bypass (ie. kill, maim or at least
dismember) a whole crew of pirates and capture their leader (a PC) and his
spiritual advisor (another PC, a psionic preist type) for her mind-ripping
masters. It all culminated in a big duel between the two PCs (one handling
psi, the other hand-to-hand) and her.  It was a great fight, coming down
to a single die roll which come up box-cars for the PCs, which produced
wild cheers. 


Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:51:06 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: the nastiest monster

I developed a likeing for the changling, metamorphs. In my original
Travellers game back in the early 80's I adapted a Metamorphic energy
entity found in a picture book not a game book), could not be detected by
psionics.(except those psi-skills that work on energy) It would drift
through a system and be attracked to sentient life emmissons. If it found a
planet it would 'consume' life forms up 2d6 worth and then return to space
moving to the next system. The manner it would consume lifeforms is that it
would move up to the life form, envelope it, disintegrate the life form and
alter it's physiology to match the consumed form (in less then 15 seconds)
and wander around exploring as it digested (about an hour), This new form
was just a shell, no thought processes, no ideals, no drives (except to
eat), if spoken to it would not respond except to stare. after an hour it
would consume it's next nearest meal. this lead to several strange
disappearence's and wild legends (and a few people wrongly incarcerated for
the 'death' of some poeple. Each time a player group encountered (Happened
twice in three years) I would roll a die amount that represented at least
1/2 of the players but no more then the players -1 (Need to have at least
one player survive) the first encounter the players were almost wiped out
before it left. the second time, the players had done months of research
(before this encounter, just to be ready next time) and determined that the
energy creature was harmed by a certain radiation. (unfortunatly this
radiation could hurt the Players also.) With only 30% causalties this time
the players managed to drive it away into the vicinity of a black holes
gravity field. (they never found out if their trick of trapping it worked.) 
	I have found that the nastiest monster is the one that can mimic player
character friends. Players develope extreme measures to check for morphs.
The metamorphs from 'Aliens and artifacts' for ICE's space master are
easily adapted to any game system and are the best villian one can ever
hope for. I have even used the metamorph for my live action Mechwarrior game.



 bumper sticker

		Save trees, whip your behind with an owl.

		Honk, if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a 
		car window!

		Cat. The other white meat.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:12:01 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
>>led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
>>destruct charges.

I saw a recent show about the incident.  The destruct charges were never
activated.
The sailor in charge of opening the seacocks didn't know that. He said that
he would have hidden/thrown over board the seacock covers if he had.
As it was, he threw them on the floor and they were easily found and
reattached to stop the flooding.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:18:16 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
> Date: Thursday, 04 March, 1999 1:14 PM
> 
> In a message dated 3/4/99 5:17:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:
> 
> << 
>  There would be the (temporary) capture of U110 by HMS Bulldog in May
1941
>  off the Irish coast, which yielded not only cipher tables but a
functioning
>  Enigma machine.  The sub sank under tow.
>   >>
> 
> I thought the recommissioned her as HMS Graph?

Nope.  Kahn is quite explicit that she sank under tow the day after being
captured.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:30:16 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

I think the nastiest monsters my players have ever encountered were.....
EACH OTHER.

If they aren't blundering into devestating situations with little or no
hope of escape, thay tend to be the biggest bunch of back stabbers I've
ever seen! 

On at least one occation one PC offered the other members of his group
(3 other PCs) as sacrifices to an Aztec derived culture! He rapidly
extracted himself and waited until the others were at the point of being
spread eagle over stone alters with flint knives at their chests, before
showing up in the ship's boat and scaring the natives away. When the
others, who had totally been convinced he was going to desrt them, got
aboard, they beat him to a point where about every bone was in broke,
weeks in medical!

Luck for them I tend to be VERY easy as a ref. Sigh, players are sooooo
hard to find.
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:45:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Human (was Nastiest Monster)

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> Hmm, I think that would be Tanaya Zintrani, the schizophrenic teleporting
> ultra-vixen martial arts master Zhodani assasin chick extraordinaire.
> Heavily cybered up, she managed to bypass (ie. kill, maim or at least
> dismember) a whole crew of pirates and capture their leader (a PC) and his
> spiritual advisor (another PC, a psionic preist type) for her mind-ripping
> masters. It all culminated in a big duel between the two PCs (one handling
> psi, the other hand-to-hand) and her.  It was a great fight, coming down
> to a single die roll which come up box-cars for the PCs, which produced
> wild cheers.

I think I might have to borrow her for MTU. Heh heh.

Probably the nastiest thing I've thrown against my group, other than
FGMP-equipped battle-dressed troops (long story there) was a blatant
ripoff of the T1000 from Terminator 2. It was an LSP prototype that had
"escaped". Imagine the looks on their faces when they noticed that their
chief engineer, whom they were talking to, had a dead double around a
nearby corner.

Also imagine the looks on their faces the first time they did the
shotgun-to-the-head thing.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:01:16 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation / Movie Review.

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Do the inhabitants of Yori/Regina like  the  cultural  output  of
>nearby Regina/Regina ... but only in small doses?  I can see many
>worlds of the Imperium standing shoulder-to-shoulder against  the
>Zhodani Threat, but irritating the hell out  of  each  other  the
>rest of the time with culture clash.

One of the PC's in a game I was in came from Efate. He decided to write a
song and release it during the 5FW. It was called "Born in the
M.A.R.I.N.E.S" (to the tune of "Born in the USA").

As I recall, the GM ruled that it was a Top 5 hit on Efate, but barely made
it into the Top 100 on the more cultured Regina...  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:52:50 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Sand Caster Question

How much volume does one (1) Sand Canister ... not Caster ... 
consume?  I can't seem to find it in GT.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:59:34 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: OT: Aliens

>Even if they aren't tool users, and given the first two movies (all
>I've seen) there's not much evidence one way or the other, they'd
still
>be bad news.

The second movie implies the Queens at least are low-level sentient
The Dark Horse comics imply some are much better than that.

BTW,  if anyone is going to be in New Zealand , specifically the
Wellington area, near the end of the year, we are doing a live action
Aliens game caled Aliens - Apocalypse , set on Earth after it has been
abandoned by most of humanity due to the Alien infestation about then.

There will be about 150-odd people involved, and the organizers
currently have all the buildings of a race course booked for the
event, and it will last some three days. Currently it's planned to do
some table-top
RPGing to set the scene, then a few smaller LARPs culminating in a
huge one wth everyone involved
Hopefully some PC's will survive to the final LARP....

It's actualy the third in a series of such events which have an
interlinked story, the second being Aliens - Velocity which at our
last con won the award for killing all the PC's the quickest. (The
pilot crashed the drop-ship with all the PC's on board)

>Consider that they would *devastate* any ecology they got dropped
into.
>That alone could be the end.

Would they ?  They haven't been shown to affect anything other than
higher order animals, and the areas where they nest. Like Grendel's in
the second book, they may actively control their expansion once a
semi-sentient Queen is in charge.

In fact, they may not even be able to infest herbivores (though I'd
find that a little strange)

>Of course, the Chtorr are worse. Being on the wrong end of a
>"terraforming" project is not good. Especially when all the evidence
>points towards the new ecosystem being one that's far *older* than
>Earth's. In the sense of having had a billion or so more years
>experience at coming out on top.

Yaah, and I love the similarities between Chtorr and Starship Troopers
in terms of plot, guy joins military, fights bugs, friend joins
psi-force, becomes bastard. It would be good if he wrote some more.

The only other book series I'm currently wondering where the next one
is Tilley's  Amtrak Wars series.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:56:25 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: High Guard question....officers and ratings

Seth wrote...

<<SNIP>>
>Ob Trav: let the PC's blow all their money on shiny toys; then let them
have
>it when they break down for lack of maintanence and spare parts, let them
go
>hungry when they run out of food, let them die for lack of medical care,
let
>them run out of ammo, etc. The pros DO still study logisitics I presume?
Help
>me out here Gary, and Doug, etc...
<<UNSNIP>>

I always try to make sure that "my" Scout characters have at least one level
in Computer, Engineering, Electronics, Gravitics and Mechanic just in case
anything goes wrong.  Also, I always figured that weapons skills involve a
*very* basic knowledge of how to fix common faults, as well as the ability
to fieldstrip and rebuild the weapon.
I realise that some of you will now be jumping up and down screaming
"Heretic!" but what the heck, IMTU!

Keep the Flame.

Jeff.R.
"Pussy not eat his fish, pussy get thin and waste away."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:07:28 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

Tom wrote...
<<SNIP>>

>
>Nope.  Kahn is quite explicit that she sank under tow the day after being
>captured.
>
>Tom Schoene
<<UNSNIP>>

Anybody else read "The Hunt For Red October"?  Didn't they tell the Russians
that he sank too?  (Info; the German and Russian navies refer to their ships
as males, whereas the Brits and the Yanks attribute them with female
characteristics.  Even the 'Old-Timer' in The Starship Operator's Manual
used a "girlfriend" anology)

ObTrav: Do Zho's, Doggies and Moggies (not to mention other all the other
races) endow their equipment with a 'sex'?  Maybe *this* is why they keep
losing the Frontier Wars...

Keep the Flame.

Jeff.R.
"What's so bad about being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 99 10:29:35 +0000
From: greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com
Subject: Re: OT: Aliens

> In fact, they may not even be able to infest herbivores (though I'd
> find that a little strange)

Didn't the original story for Alien 3, have the infected animal as an
ox, not a dog.  (Watch the bulkheads crumple as the ox-alien hybrid
charges down the corridors.)

Greg.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Greg Aldridge      | You can find me at Marconi Communications Ltd,
   Software Engineer,   | Marconi House, New Street, Chelmsford CM1 1PL
   EASAMS Engineering   | E-mail: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com
        Systems         |    Tel: 01245 353221 x4916
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:16:09 -0000
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Orphan of Creation

>In mail you write:

>> Book Title Orphan of Creation

>> By Roger MacBride Allen

>> ISBN 0-7088-4959-8

>That's the book all right! But I thought it was "Orphans", not "Orphan"?



Well there is no S on the cover of the UK edition (1991) or title page, but
I do not know about the US and other editions,

- ----------------------------

- -Cheers Nick.

Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,
and Death walks at his left hand...

UTUP.
0609-A666A667-5-5-2

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 06:13:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Aliens [now with ObTrav!]

greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com wrote:
> 
> > In fact, they may not even be able to infest herbivores (though I'd
> > find that a little strange)
> 
> Didn't the original story for Alien 3, have the infected animal as an
> ox, not a dog.  (Watch the bulkheads crumple as the ox-alien hybrid
> charges down the corridors.)
> 
ObTrav:  At which point, the thread links up with the discussion of
Denebian Tree-Oxen....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 07:35:26 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
 >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
 >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them
non-human
 >> monsters, baby!
> >
> > A group of 36 Ancient psionic Droyne warriors with Ancient
> > armor/weapons, trained to act as an integrated unit,
> > who wake up under fire to find their own base infiltrated
> > and under assault with no "friendlies" in the area.
> >
> > All run by a GM who is intimately familiar with the
> > Traveller psi rules and special ops tactics and had
> > 3 months to study the area of engagement.
> >
> > The adventure was "Twilight's Peak" by Marc Miller. The
> > GM was an ex-Marine recon-type.
> 
> Ouch!!! How long did it take you all to roll up new characters...;-)

About an hour and a half for those 6 players whose characters
stood and fought gloriously. *My* PC is alive and well, thank
you. He ducked and ended up trying to First Aid the only
surviving Droyne (poor thing was hurt so badly I just had to
put it out of its misery).

After all the noise was over, my PC, who was actually psionic
and had randomly rolled Oynprith as a language, looked around
and thought "My, what an interesting Ancient base I have".

Heheh. Took the GM for everything I could think of.

Just be polite to that laid-back groat rancher in the Fulacin
outback whom everyone at the starport says is an Imperial
knight.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:43:20 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout tender

> Realised that since the Donosev's now completely
>done and I'm moving right along on the Tender.

The Donosev came out great.

I had looked at the tender at one point with a skeptical eye.  Traveller
starship numbers need to be looked at with an unfocussed eye, however, and
a few fudges are always standard.  Not enough to let "shattered ships" get
by.

The concept of the corsair (never pictured as far as I know) being able to
"swallow" a 100 ton ship in its clamshell bay doors always made me chuckle
too.     On top of that, the ship was supposedly of a variable geometry
that could imitate other ships.

Incidentially, are you taking submissions for other types of ships (i.e.
non Canon Traveller, but still traveller)?

If so, what do you need as a starting point?  I've got a fair 800 ton
merchant that needs picturing, and a nice (IMO) 1200 tonner that I've done
fairly detailed (hand) drawings.

Perhaps I'll just have to follow your tutorial...

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:53:49 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Ends and Odds (mostly minis)

Diespamer@aol.com writes:
>I also have been searching for--without too much success--the Martian
>Metals
>figures. I've got some dupes (mostly the K'kree), but some packs are
>utterly
>impossible to find: the various adventurers, the Striker sets, etc.
>
>A little easier to find was the Laserburn line. In fact, I've probably got
>(including dupes) about 20 or so packs. Does anybody know if these are
>still
>being made by anybody! If I can't find the Martians, I might as well get
>the
>unofficial equals!

Last I heard, Seeker had purchased the modls and what-not from Martian
Metals. They were for sale 10 years ago, and as they haven't done anything
with them you might be able to buy them (assuming that you can track down
the owner of Seeker).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:53:29 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sand Caster Question

>How much volume does one (1) Sand Canister ... not Caster ...
>consume?  I can't seem to find it in GT.
>

Classic Traveller have t hem massing about 50 kg per load but the volume I
don't know.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:06:46 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Ends and Odds (mostly minis)

Here we go again. <sigh>  If anyone ever finds the person who owns Seeker,
please drop me a note.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
>Last I heard, Seeker had purchased the modls and what-not from Martian
>Metals. They were for sale 10 years ago, and as they haven't done anything
>with them you might be able to buy them (assuming that you can track down
>the owner of Seeker).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:20:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

Sure you're not talking about my group?

:)




>
>I think the nastiest monsters my players have ever encountered were.....
>EACH OTHER.
>
>If they aren't blundering into devestating situations with little or no
>hope of escape, thay tend to be the biggest bunch of back stabbers I've
>ever seen! 
>
>On at least one occation one PC offered the other members of his group
>(3 other PCs) as sacrifices to an Aztec derived culture! He rapidly
>extracted himself and waited until the others were at the point of being
>spread eagle over stone alters with flint knives at their chests, before
>showing up in the ship's boat and scaring the natives away. When the
>others, who had totally been convinced he was going to desrt them, got
>aboard, they beat him to a point where about every bone was in broke,
>weeks in medical!
>
>Luck for them I tend to be VERY easy as a ref. Sigh, players are sooooo
>hard to find.
>-- 
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:37:21 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

This is a really good way to train people to be careful.
ObTrav: Don't leave the ship unguarded!
Roger Barr


>I've pulled a similar stunt on several ocassions.  The time it worked 
best
>(as far as role playing goes) was in and AD&D game.  The players were 
an all
>good group of mostly CGs.  Very little party unity and a great deal of 
inter
>party compitition for loot.  The group was mostly levels 9 and 10 on 
your
>basic dungen crawl.  I threw into the mix an equal sized group of level 
7/8
>lawfull evils with the same mix of character classes BUT the LEs where
>operating in cooperation and using well prepared and trained combat
>techniques.  The use 'room clearence' methods, infiltrate and 
exfiltrate
>procedures, scouting and base security proceedures and the concept of 
never
>giving a sucker and even break.  The PCs were running for their lives 
after
>the first two scermishes.  (The LEs retreated in good order under cover 
of
>spells and missle fire in the first encounter when they lost the 
iniative
>only to ambush the PC when they left the dugeon to rest and recover.)  
The
>'Dungeon Hunters' became a reoccuring enemy that the PC just could not 
seem
>to completely defeat.  The PCs often found dead monsters and looted 
chests
>if they were just a little to slow following up on a lead.  They 
learned to
>NEVER leave their goods or base camp ungaurded and to CYA at all times.
>
>Charles L.
>
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:42:47 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: [debate]  volume of debate so far

I have made a compliation of the debate so far (though not all the
discussion leading up to it).  The interaction of my email program and
MS Word 97 meant that all the entries are half a page wide.  The total
length of this (half-page-wide, single-spaced) debate thread so far is
42 pages long!
There hasn't been much activity on this thread in the last several
days, but I think it likely that everyone is pondering on their next
entries (like me).  The initial positions seem all present now, several
wanting the status quo, several wanting moderate changes, and several
radical changes.  Then there are several "foreign parties" who have
entered the fray.
I am hoping to get some time to add these to my site soon (as long as
it doesn't step on your toes too much, Jeff).  This is definitely a fun
thread, though it takes more thinking than most.
- - Joseph (aka Sir Renner)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:03:25 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Robo-Rifle

ABC.com has an interesting story on the San Francisco
Police Dept.'s testing of a wide-based, tripod-mounted,
remote control sniper rifle. According to the tests,
a trained sniper can become in expert in its use in ten
minutes and can consistantly hit the center of a
fifty-cent piece (about a 3cm circle) at 100 yards
(92.3 meters) while staying under cover at a distance.

The inventor, Graham Hawkes, said, "We just decided
that air space punctuated by bullets was a dangerous
environment..."

Golly, is he on the ball or what?

The full story can be found at:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9903/05/t_t/robo.rifle/index.html


ObTrav: This one's obvious.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #251
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, March 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 252



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: the nastiest monster
Re: the nastiest monster
NASA Wide-Field Infrared Explorer probably failed
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
MT PBeM Game Openings
Re: Sand Caster Question
Please Help With TML!!
Survey Question
Look out, Jesse!
Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)
Guarding the ship (was Re: Nastiest Monster)
Re: Guarding the ship (was Re: Nastiest Monster)
Swiftsure MT Fleet Recon Cruiser
Re: Look out, Jesse!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:55:43 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

Hey, I resent that!!  If I recall Jess ol' pal, it was a group that you were
in that I GM'd in which the group eneded up haveing a firefight against each
other on their own ship, part of the fight including a shape charge being
placed on a character's battle dress!!  Talk about monsters, I had nightmares
about that game for weeks.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:19:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

OK, so I'd forgotten about that one :)  Nothing like a hull breaching charge
to open up a can of battledress!!!  Actually though, I was thinking more
recent history when a certain duo show up and every starts to grow targets
on their backs.

Jesse


>Hey, I resent that!!  If I recall Jess ol' pal, it was a group that you
were
>in that I GM'd in which the group eneded up haveing a firefight against
each
>other on their own ship, part of the fight including a shape charge being
>placed on a character's battle dress!!  Talk about monsters, I had
nightmares
>about that game for weeks.
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:14:16 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: NASA Wide-Field Infrared Explorer probably failed

The Wide-Field Infrared Explorer, a small cryogenic telescope optimized for
IR scans of wide areas of the sky, launched yesterday, has probably failed;
it's tumbling out of control most likely due to cryogen boil-off. 
http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/wire/ is the main web page (which hasn't been
updated since the failure) while http://www.flatoday.com/space/today/index.htm
has some beginnings of hints about it.

This is ObTrav because it was an analysis of WIRE that first led me into
thinking about Traveller sensor sensitivities; I'd done a spreadsheet to
calculate its ability to see brown dwarfs for a proposal, and thought to
myself (late at night) "what happens if I replace the 1000K jupiter-sized
brown dwarf at 50 pc in the model with a 300 K scoutship-sized object at
1 million km?" 
(For reference, WIRE is about a PEMS-12.5 science-optimized scanner, I think.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:44:16 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

In a message dated 3/4/99 6:28:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Nope.  Kahn is quite explicit that she sank under tow the day after being
 captured.
  >>

Thanks...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:03:57 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: MT PBeM Game Openings

Hi,
	I am looking at starting a Traveller PBeM game.  Here are the details:

	This game will be (relatively) short duration, and will need 8 players
for a relatively fast (as close to one a day as possible) turn
frequency.
	This game will also be e-mail only, with my usual story telling
approach to the turns.
	This game will be hosted through a list server (most likely OneList),
and lurking is encouraged.
	Contribution will only be accepted from the players involved.
	This game is going to be based on a small published adventure and 8
characters would be the maximum allowable (for manageability).
	Rules utilized will be 'home brew' combinations of all traveller
vintages (classic through Gurps Traveller)
	More weight will be emphasized on the MT timeline as well as the G:T
rules.
	This game will also be mainly ground-pounder based, all character types
are encouraged, but to know that the game is planetary based (so far)
gives a good starting point.
	There will be a supporting web site.

	Preferred rules system: Gurps Traveller with MT time line (circa 1117)


	If you are interested in participating, please contact me at:
scspieker@ncweb.com

Thank you for your interest and time,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:13:32 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sand Caster Question

In a message dated 3/4/99 8:00:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< How much volume does one (1) Sand Canister ... not Caster ... 
 consume?  I can't seem to find it in GT.
  >>

In CT special supplement 3, Missiles; one missile rack can hold three
missiles. In addition; the turret can hold another 12 missiles in it.
Additional missiles are stored in a magazine and have to be replenished, which
takes an entire game turn (CT game turn). Note another person can do this so
the gunner doesn't have to... Missiles weigh 55kg, (50 for the missile and 5
for the shipping container), and have a volume of one meter in length, and a
diameter of 15 cm (a cylinder).

Note that theses rules are pretty much the same for sand, even though the
supplement is about missiles. CT book two gives the sand canister a cost of
400 Cr. I would use the missile volume in SS3 for the canister volume as the
displacement weights for sand and missiles are the same (both weigh 50 kg.).
It also makes computing the volume needed for a magazine easier....Remember
that a displacement ton has a volume of 13.5 cubic meters (4x1.5 meter cubes).
I don''t know how you are going to convert these measurements into SAE
measurements though (pounds and cubic feet) and the hexagons that GURPS uses
instead of squares like CT...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:49:22 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Please Help With TML!!

>From: MLinsenmayer@symantec.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:22:02 -0800
>Subject: Please Help With TML!!
>To: lkw@io.com
>
>Loren,
>
>I know you do not know me, but my name is Mike Linsenmayer and I have been on
>the TML for a couple of years (Never post because I cant for some reason).
>Anyway I was hoping you could help me out. I was hoping you could send this to
>the TML for me so people could review it and send me their comments. I am
>trying
>to put this all together into a short 10min mpeg. Your comments would also be
>appreciated.
>
>Thanks In Advance!
>
>Mike Linsenmayer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>---------------
>The following text and 8 rendered images of a ship going into jump can be
>found
>here
>
>Please E-mail me directly with you comments. mlinsenmayer@symantec.com
>
>http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/zip1.zip
>
>file size is 987kb
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>---------------
>
>Jump Drives (FTL Travel) E/R Bridges
>
>Were it not for the creation and discovery of 'Einstein-Rosen Bridges'
>(usually
>refereed to under the Villani term as 'Shumkargi Lsheagam Debeshaadi' ,
>but more
>commonly known as 'Jump Space'), the intergalactic community that is in
>existence now could never have come about.
>
>The physics of how a 'Jump Drive' operates relies on an understanding of the
>dimensional fabric of space/time. Space/time, what we perceive as the
>universe,
>is in fact folded in upon itself in higher dimensions. For example, on a
>napkin
>flattened out on a table, one corner will be far away from the opposite
>corner.
>However, if we crumple up the napkin into a little ball, the two opposite
>corners may very well be near each other, although the intervening
>material from
>one corner to the other is still just as real and tangible.
>
>The problem, of course, was how to make that 'jump' from the one corner to the
>other without having to transverse the entire napkin.
>
>Conventional Einstienian or Shumkargi physics, depending on your cultural
>reference, had long assumed that one way to 'pierce' the barrier between one
>point in space and another was by the use of a massive gravitational well.
>Black
>Holes were one such example; a mass so dense that it drags its way through
>normal time/space, creating a theoretical portal from one location to
>another.
>
>But creating an artificial black hole is virtually impossible. So, the
>thinking
>went, if the fabric of space-time was so tough that it required a superdense
>object to punch through it, was it possible to lower the toughness of
>space/time
>so that you didn't need such a heavy mass to pierce it? So in order to
>intersect
>our 3-Dimensional space then there must also be a type of space that is
>between
>dimensions. That means that one could open a 'Einstein-Rosen Bridge' into the
>"non dimension" and travel through it allowing them to go between our
>space and
>the four dimensional space (hyperspace) and then back into normal
>3-Dimensional
>space.
>
>After many years of experimentation, such a method was discovered of reducing
>the 'tensile strength' of a localized area of space/time. It was
>discovered that
>a relatively moderate amount of matter of uniform mass and energy could create
>the portal. As it turned out, space/time was actually more malleable than
>originally supposed -- once a strong enough field was generated, the
>portal (The
>formal name for this unique 4-Dimensional object / portal we perceive in our
>3-Dimension universe is called the "antipode") and would "snap" open of
>it's own
>volition. Apparently, the same "tensile strength" that kept the fabric of the
>universe intact also contributed to the creation of the bridge through higher
>dimensions, and once a threshold was reached, two points in space would mold
>together through one of these higher dimensions with a much lower level of
>energy expenditure, much like once two soap bubbles are pressed together, they
>eventually merge to become one.
>
>One early and unfortunate problem was that while opening a 'Bridge' or 'jump
>point' at any point in space/time was very possible, it was at first very
>difficult to determine where the other end of the Bridge would appear. It was
>impossible to tell if a Bridge opened at one point would connect with a
>point 1
>light year or 36 light years away. Another problem early Engineers had was
>developing a safe way for the object to pass across the bridge and through the
>non-dimensional space to the other side. Even thought the two points were
>connected to the same point in space/ time there was that still small higher
>dimension, that infinitesimal level that needed to be moved across. As we know
>today exposure to this nondimensionl or'Jump space' usually results in one of
>several outcomes. Several of the most common effects are sever insanity or
>death
>of life forms, objects become twisted inside out, including people. The third
>was the destruction of the vessel traversing the bridge. It was discovered by
>accident by the Terrans during their early research into jump technology
>when an
>experimental ship experienced a sudden catastrophe when a micro meteor struck
>the hydrogen tanks as the ship was charging up for jump. To everyone's
>surprise
>the ship arrived in one peace. Some modifications were made to existing
>prototypes and soon they were able to successfully traverse jump space in one
>peace.
>
>What was discovered was that at the moment of 'Jump', the vessel discharged a
>large amount of pure hydrogen from its tanks at the moment the ship
>engaged the
>main charge into the jump grid. This hydrogen cloud received some of the
>"energy" that was discharged by the jump grid and created a bubble of 'real
>Space' around the ship as it passed through the bridge. Since time and energy
>are altered in the different, and still not understood physics of jump
>space the
>cooling and dissipation rate of the protective hydrogen bubble is slowed to
>about 1 millionth the normal rate. So theoretically once you engaged the jump
>grid, the transition to the other side of the bridge should be instantaneous.
>But once the ship has 'folded' it's way into its protective bubble holding and
>protecting the ship in the non-dimension that is the bridge, it first must
>cool
>must and dissipate first before the ship can reenter 'real space'. This
>cooling
>takes place in the distorted physics of jump space, and what should only
>take a
>few seconds takes approx. a week in jump space. Once cooled below a certain
>threshold the vessel just sublimates back into real space with a small
>flash of
>energy that was the protective energy and hydrogen barrier.
>
>The energies required to open the bridge are readily available starting around
>tech level 9. This energy budget is fairly large and must be developed on the
>spot and quickly. Once a large 'charge' has been generated a pulse is sent
>through a ships Jump grid, discharging any free radicals, plus allowing
>the crew
>to predict any problems that may arise when the full charge is passed
>throughout
>the grid.
>
>Much of the early applications of Bridges were very much trial and error.
>Bridges are much, much easier to create in terms of power output when both
>points are relatively distant to large masses. If a Bridge was taking too much
>power to create, the Bridger could be assured that the other end of a
>portal was
>opening dangerously close to a high-density object, such as a star or planet.
>The power to create the bridge between points in space decrease as one
>leaves a
>gravity well, and levels off to a standard level once the jumping ship is
>past a
>limit of about 100 planetary diameters from the gravity wells source.
>Hence the
>cause of misjumps when close to large gravity wells. The energy budget
>increases
>by an exponential rate as one moves closer to the center of the gravity
>well. So
>a ship trying to jump in orbit will probably never achieve a great enough
>charge, and usually results in the ship just discharging its entire energy
>budget with nothing happing (usually when within 10 diameters of a star or
>similar large gravity producing object) or being destroyed when the bridge
>dissipates prematurely or more than likely there may not enough energy
>remaining
>after creating the bride to help creative the protective bubble of real space
>and the ship 'mis-jumps'
>
>When opened, a Bridge appears as a perfect sphere, hovering in empty
>space. This
>sphere is our way of perceiving the four dimensional hypersphere that
>opens the
>bridge into 'jump space' (and again this hypersphere is called an 'antipode').
>The outline of the Antipode is traced with a pale glow of white light from the
>super charged particles of hydrogen atoms dumped from the ships tanks to help
>create a stable bubble of 'real matter, while the interior of the sphere
>can be
>seen as the destination, with the starscape gradually being compressed as one
>gets closer to the edge -- in large part, looking at a Bridge portal can be
>equated to looking at a Christmas ornament.
>
>
>
>Table 1: Calculations for Hyperspace / Hypersphere Navigation
>
>
>
>
>
>        D= Sqr((x^2-x^2) + (y^2-y^2) + (z^2-z^2) + w)
>
>        Loci "inside"
>        w = pi^2*(r/10000)
>
>
>Notes:
>1. D = Total distance traveled in light-years.
>2. r = The perceived radius of the generated Hypersphere (Ships height, or
>width
>in meters, which is ever is greater * PI).
>3. pi = The equivalent of the Greek letter substituted for 3.14159.
>4. "Loci inside" versus "Loci on surface" of the generated hypersphere. (The
>extradimension distance the ship must travel through non-dimensional space.
>5. If the 'w' variable of the size of the generated hypersphere is not taken
>into account, it could make a significant change in destination. For example a
>small scout ship, jumps and the size of the Antipode is not taken into account
>could result in the ship sublimating back into normal space nearly 158 billion
>miles from its intended destination.
>
>Example Below
>
>Total Distance to target
>
>Star-1 = X=1.2, Y=-2.4, Z=12.1
>star-2 = X=0.12 Y=-3.6, Z=1.5
>
>Ship = 57 Meters in length, so the generated Antipode will have a diameter of
>179.07 meters
>
>        --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        D= Sqr((1.2^2-0.12^2)+(-2.4^2--3.6^2)+(12.1^2-1.5^2)+w)
>
>        w = 3.1415^2*((57*3.14159)/10000)
>        --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        D= Sqr((-1.4256)+(7.2)+(144.16)+w)
>
>        w= 9.8696*(179.07063)/10000)
>
>        --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        D= Sqr((152.7856)+0.1767)
>
>        w= 9.8696*(0.017907063)
>
>        --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        D= Sqr(152.9623355489848)
>
>        w= 0.1767)
>
>        --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        D= 12.368 LY Total effective distance
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:30:51 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Survey Question

Gentles,

It is coming up on reprint time for Traveller, and a question has come up:

It has been suggested to me that the "word on the street" is that the first
edition had too many errata for many people to sink the extra bucks into a
hardback version, and that a second printing, with all the bugs stomped on,
would outsell the first print run.

My original notion was to do a limited edition of the HB and then run no
more, but if there is a large demand for a "fixed" HB...

Please send your answeres directly to me at

lkw@io.com

Thanks,





Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:01:55 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Look out, Jesse!

Thanks to Loren for posting these for Mike.

Mike, these are great!  Look's like you might be some competition
for Jesse.  Jesse, you better hire him at Vision-Forge before some
one else does.

These would be great in an mpeg with sound of course, but 10 minutes
would probably be waay too long.  10 seconds with quality like this
would be great.


> >From: MLinsenmayer@symantec.com
> >Mime-Version: 1.0
> >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:22:02 -0800
> >Subject: Please Help With TML!!
> >To: lkw@io.com
> >
> >Loren,
> >
> >I know you do not know me, but my name is Mike Linsenmayer and I have been on
> >the TML for a couple of years (Never post because I cant for some reason).
> >Anyway I was hoping you could help me out. I was hoping you could send this to
> >the TML for me so people could review it and send me their comments. I am
> >trying
> >to put this all together into a short 10min mpeg. Your comments would also be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >Thanks In Advance!
> >
> >Mike Linsenmayer

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:59:50 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)

Heretic Class Jump Torpedo

    CraftID: Heretic Class Jump Torpedo, TL 15, Mcr. 0.47
       Hull: 1/1, Disp=0.2tons, Config=3USL, Armor=40G

             Unloaded=2 tons,  Loaded=3 tons
      Power: 1/3, Primary Fusion=0.38Mw, Duration=12 days
       Loco: 1/2, Manuver=1G, 1/2, Jump=5,
             NOE=0kph, Cruise=900kph, Top=1200kph, Agility=0
      Commo: Radio=Planetary, LaserComm=Planetary
    Sensors: PassiveEMS=Interplanetary
             ActObjScan=N/A, ActObjPin=N/A
             PasObjScan=N/A, PasObjPin=Routine
             PasEngScan=Routine, PasEngPin=N/A
        Off:
        Def: DefDM +2
    Control: Computer=0x1, Panel=Holodynamic Linked x1
     Accomm: Crew=0
      Other: Cargo=0 (0 tons), Fuel=1 kl.
             ObjSize=Small, EmLevel1=Moderate, EM Level2=Moderate

This jump torpedo allows the Imperial Navy scouting elements to remainin
contact with a fleet main body without themselves travelling to the fleet's
location.

The torp is basically a jump drive with controls communications gear, and a
small computer attached.  It can follow a preprogrammed set of instructions
to reach a aparticular area of space at its destination world where it is
drained of data via commo gear, and picked up by a naval vessel for reuse.

Reliability of this unit is higher than with previous genertion jump torps,
but still not ideal.  Generally, one in 10 is lost either through misjump
or glitches in the approach at the destination system.  This makes the jump
torpedo less-than profitable for the Scout Service or other commercial
ventures except in certain special circumstances.  Standard operating
procedure is for a ship sending information by jump torp to send two such
torpedos to two seperate relay systems to ensure a high chance of delivery.

On board systems are capable of determining position, executing a jump,
signaling when a friendly IFF is detected, and plotting a course towards a
given destination.  Data on board is always protected by navy level
encryption schemes.

Design notes : 0.2 tons is about as good as I could get and still include a
computer (pitiful as it is, I decided that was all that was needed).  I
decided that since there was no onboard operator, there was a 3 in 12
chance of a misjump (which would otherwise be avoided by an engineer or
pilot on board).

I was able to build a .1 ton torp at jump 2 that had 8 days duration, which
I thought was not really enough.  Not wanting to split tenths of a ton, and
desiring more jump capability, I settled on the above design.

Incidentially, this design might be better with a non fusion power supply.
I didn't check.

Coming up: The Swiftsure Fleet Reconnaisance Cruiser which carries these.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:16:35 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Guarding the ship (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

Roger Barr comments "ObTrav: Don't leave the ship unguarded!"

How many of you, players or GMs, insist on having a guard on the ship?
Is that guard a PC?  What keeps that player from getting bored while
everyone else goes out and does something?

Personally, as GM I plan on reaching an agreement with the players
saying "Look, your ship has reasonable security precautions and if I
take your ship over it'll be for plot-relevant reasons."  This way,
you don't have someone effectively left out of the game (especially
since the PCs tend to decide that one of them would be better able to
guard the ship than your NPC).

It's a kludge, but makes the game more playable (and by not having
NPCs travel with the group in the long term, I can concentrate on the
NPCs whom they encounter).

	-robert ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:39:07 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Guarding the ship (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
> 
> Roger Barr comments "ObTrav: Don't leave the ship unguarded!"
> 
> How many of you, players or GMs, insist on having a guard on the ship?
> Is that guard a PC?  What keeps that player from getting bored while
> everyone else goes out and does something?

My PC group went out and spent Cr100,000 for a complex security system on their
ship. The players and I coughed up a simple set of "if-then" rules I could use
to determine when alarms go off. That's pretty much taken care of their security
needs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:55:58 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Swiftsure MT Fleet Recon Cruiser

Swiftsure Class Fleet Reconnaisance Cruiser

    CraftID: Swiftsure Class Fleet Reconnaisance Cruiser, TL 15, Mcr. 913.7
       Hull: 80/200, Disp=1200tons, Config=3SL, Armor=40G

             Unloaded=12294 tons,  Loaded=13553 tons
      Power: 52/103, Primary Fusion=7947Mw, Duration=30 days
             Secondary Fusion=6012Mw, Consumption=3 Kl/Hr.
       Loco: 6/13, Manuver=3G, 6/11, Jump=6,
             NOE=190kph, Cruise=2137.5kph, Top=2850kph, Agility=0
      Commo: Radio=System, LaserComm=System, Maser=System
    Sensors: ActEMS=Far Orbit, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, EMSJammer=Far Orbit,
             LoPen=250m, HiPen=1km, Neutrino=100kw
             ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine
             PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine
             PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
        Off: Beamlaser=xx4
                  batt=008
                  bear=008
        Def: DefDM +9
              Sand=xx4
              batt=004
              bear=004
    Control: Computer=9/fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic Linked x43
             Special=HeadsUpHolo x20, Special=LargeHoloDisp x1
             Basic Env, Basic LS, Ext LS, Air Locks x 4, Grav Plates,
Inertial
             Comp
     Accomm: Crew=12 (Bridge=2, Engineering=2,
             Flight Crew=6, Troops=4, Command=2, )
             Sm. Stateroomsx4, Lg. Stateroomsx4, Sick Bay x 1, Bunksx4
             Probe Shop x 1
             SubCraft=Gig (20 Ton)x2,
             LaunchTube=2 tons
      Other: Cargo=702 kl. (52 tons), Fuel=8531 kl.
             ObjSize=Large, EmLevel1=Faint, EM Level2=Faint

The Swiftsure is part of the layered scouting mission conducted by the
Fleet Reconnnaisance Arm of the Imperial Navy.  Each numbered fleet
generally conducts reconnaisance along any flank that is not covered by
another, adjacent fleet out to as much as 12 parsecs.  This vessel is at
the outer limit of that scouting footprint.  Doctrine dictates somewhat
heavier units closer to the fleet, available to back this unit up or
investigate its disappearance if necessary.

With it's high jump capacity, and large store of jump torpedos (standard
load is 100, using 20 tons of the available cargo), this ship will stay on
station on the extreme flank of a numbered fleet, acting as early warning
against an enemy's flank attack, or searching out the enemy fleet.

If elements of an enemy (or potential enemy) is detected, this ship's
mission is to remain in system, ready to run, and send intelligence back to
the main fleet on a frequent basis.  For that reason, this ship is
generally equipped with the best available stealthing technology, and
excellent sensors.  Weapons are concentrated on self-protection, although
battles between scouting elements of opposing fleets are not uncommon, and
can be very important to the outcome of a war.

These units rarely act alone because of the critical nature of their
mission, but generally one vessel will go "visible" and the other will
remain as stealthy as possible.

Another typical tactic; since a jumping vessel creates a detectable sensor
footprint, a jump torpedo may be dropped "dead" in a systems jump point and
activated via laser comm at some later time, loaded with information, and
sent off remotely.  This tactic prevents the recon cruiser from being
spotted in the vicinity of the distinctive "jump signature" created by the
torp.  This occasionally results in lost or abandoned torpedos.

Note that the term "cruiser" is used in place of the term "scout" to
prevent confusion with the Scout Service.

Design Notes;  There are two Gigs (20 tons) that can act as ship's boats
and as secondary sensor platforms as needed.

The concept for this vessel came out of the discussion of the "101st
Batron", and I just got around to putting it down.  The ship breaks the
rules for some people, although it is still quite useful in the same basic
role without jump torps.  In that capacity I would probably want a smaller
vessel though, since it has to make the trip back itself each time.  That
type would also need to be deployed in larger numbers for the same coverage.

In my own campaign a major numbered fleet is currently moving through
Aramis system, and this ship is stationed (among other places) At
Jesedipere, nine parsecs away, to keep an eye on the Vargr border.  In my
own conception there will be a line of destroyer class (1000-5000 ton)
ships in systems from 1 to 6 parsecs from the fleet's primary route of
travel and smaller vessels such as this one in systems from 7-12 parsecs
out.  Communication via jtorp is conducted with the farthest in ships you
can reach, and is always duplicated.

IMTU the Jtorp is realtively new, and does not break canon by virtue of
this fact and its not-really-justified reputation for unreliability.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:11:44 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Look out, Jesse!

DOH!!  Mike beat me to it!  I'd been planning on doing a jump sequence for
some time (and was trying to get it to work <to no avail> for my G:T "Far
Trader" pics).  Nice work Mike!

Jesse




>Thanks to Loren for posting these for Mike.
>
>Mike, these are great!  Look's like you might be some competition
>for Jesse.  Jesse, you better hire him at Vision-Forge before some
>one else does.
>
>These would be great in an mpeg with sound of course, but 10 minutes
>would probably be waay too long.  10 seconds with quality like this
>would be great.
>
>
>> >From: MLinsenmayer@symantec.com
>> >Mime-Version: 1.0
>> >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:22:02 -0800
>> >Subject: Please Help With TML!!
>> >To: lkw@io.com
>> >
>> >Loren,
>> >
>> >I know you do not know me, but my name is Mike Linsenmayer and I have
been on
>> >the TML for a couple of years (Never post because I cant for some
reason).
>> >Anyway I was hoping you could help me out. I was hoping you could send
this to
>> >the TML for me so people could review it and send me their comments. I
am
>> >trying
>> >to put this all together into a short 10min mpeg. Your comments would
also be
>> >appreciated.
>> >
>> >Thanks In Advance!
>> >
>> >Mike Linsenmayer
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #252
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, March 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 253



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)
Re: Look out, Jesse!
World Builder Deluxe
Re: World Builder Deluxe
Hard to find Trav Items
[BITS] Task System notes
Re: Doggie Breath
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #251
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)
Re: Robo-Rifle
Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)
[none]
Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)
GURPS Traveller Ship Update 1.03.00
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Invasion of Colchis II (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:23:14 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)

Hey Pete [LOL], I love the name of the Torp class!
Thom
- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 4:02 PM
Subject: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)


>Heretic Class Jump Torpedo
>
>
>Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:55:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Look out, Jesse!

What kind of ship is the "kiarkhagan", anyway?

- --Clif

Does it take 10 minutes to go through the jump process?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:57:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe

Would SOMEONE please tell me where I can download Stuart Ferris' "World
Builder Deluxe" or his "World Builder"(one and the same?)?  The link at his
site isn't working.

I've emailed Stuart Ferris with no answer, so I must be in his kill file, so
if one of you can relay the message.

If you have a copy of the program, maybe we could do a file transfer through
ICQ?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Look out, Jesse!


>DOH!!  Mike beat me to it!  I'd been planning on doing a jump sequence for
>some time (and was trying to get it to work <to no avail> for my G:T "Far
>Trader" pics).  Nice work Mike!
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>Thanks to Loren for posting these for Mike.
>>
>>Mike, these are great!  Look's like you might be some competition
>>for Jesse.  Jesse, you better hire him at Vision-Forge before some
>>one else does.
>>
>>These would be great in an mpeg with sound of course, but 10 minutes
>>would probably be waay too long.  10 seconds with quality like this
>>would be great.
>>
>>
>>> >From: MLinsenmayer@symantec.com
>>> >Mime-Version: 1.0
>>> >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:22:02 -0800
>>> >Subject: Please Help With TML!!
>>> >To: lkw@io.com
>>> >
>>> >Loren,
>>> >
>>> >I know you do not know me, but my name is Mike Linsenmayer and I have
>been on
>>> >the TML for a couple of years (Never post because I cant for some
>reason).
>>> >Anyway I was hoping you could help me out. I was hoping you could send
>this to
>>> >the TML for me so people could review it and send me their comments. I
>am
>>> >trying
>>> >to put this all together into a short 10min mpeg. Your comments would
>also be
>>> >appreciated.
>>> >
>>> >Thanks In Advance!
>>> >
>>> >Mike Linsenmayer
>>
>>--
>>Bloo
>>Resounding Technology
>>Creators of RogerWilco
>>http://www.resounding.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:10:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: World Builder Deluxe

Clif, I just went back to Stuart's site and was able to pull it down again.
Try one more time and if that doesn't work, I'll e-mail you the zip file.

Jesse




>Would SOMEONE please tell me where I can download Stuart Ferris' "World
>Builder Deluxe" or his "World Builder"(one and the same?)?  The link at his
>site isn't working.
>
>I've emailed Stuart Ferris with no answer, so I must be in his kill file,
so
>if one of you can relay the message.
>
>If you have a copy of the program, maybe we could do a file transfer
through
>ICQ?
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 17:12:39 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Hard to find Trav Items

I saw two Trav items today at one of my local stores.  They've got:

MT Referee's Companion

MT Rebellion Sourcebook

Both books are $15.00 each.  Since these things are so hard to find, I
will volunteer to pick these up and mail these to anybody who wants
them.  But, you'll have to cover tax and postage.  They only had one
copy of each.

I'll go pick them up for the first person to e-mail me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:17:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Task System notes

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

As some of you may know, I maintain a watching brief over TML threads for
Andy Lilly, as he rarely has time to keep up with the high volume of mail
on the list. The discussions of task systems for GT prompted by Eris
'Heretic' Reddoch lead to me sending him Eris' proposal. Eris had kindly
offered to let us use his system. Anyway, Andy responded as shown below, as
he had already been thinking on this topic. Comments on the system proposed
below would be welcome.

Dom (BITS Webmaster, TML Observer ;-) )


<BEGIN EXTRACT OF POST FROM ANDY LILLY>

If anyone's interested, you can let them know that this is almost identical
to what BITS will be introducing to maintain consistency between Traveller
and GURPS Traveller for future 101 and adventure books! From memory, they
seem to have missed out Impossible tasks, which come before Hopeless?

In fact, so no one thinks we're stealing anything, I think we'd better say
this - perhaps quoting part of the extract below? Naturally, should anyone
come up with a better idea I'm open to suggestions.

Andy

EXTRACT FROM DRAFT (c)1998 Andrew S. Lilly. All Rights Reserved.

Rule Systems

MegaTraveller (MT), Traveller: The New Era (TNE) and Marc Miller's Traveller
(T4) all use a graduated system of task difficulty ratings, e.g. Easy,
Routine, Normal, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Impossible, Hopeless.
'Classic' Traveller (CT) nor GURPS Traveller (GT) both use modifiers to the
task rolls rather than specific difficulty ratings. To provide a common
ground for all these rule sets, this book uses the difficulty ratings listed
in the following table, where each rating has a corresponding task modifier
for CT and GT:

Table 1: Common Difficulty Ratings
Difficulty		CT Target	GT Target
		Modifier	Modifier
Easy		-4	+6
Routine		-2	+3
Normal		0	0
Difficult		+2	-3
Formidable	+4	-6
Staggering	+6	-9
Impossible		+8	-12
Hopeless		+10	-15

Example: Maria Charles is picking an electronic safe lock. The referee rules
the lock is particularly complex, making it a Staggering task. Maria has INT
10 and Lockpick-4 for all rule sets except GT, where her INT is 15 and she
has Lockpick-19.

CT: Maria would require 2D+Lockpick >= 8 to open a normal lock. However, this
lock requires 2D+Lockpick >= 14 (8+6). Alternatively, the referee may prefer
to apply the target modifier as a negative DM on the die roll, i.e. Maria
would require 2D-6+Lockpick >= 8.
...
T4: Maria would require INT+Lockpick >= 4D (Staggering).

GT: Maria would require Lockpick -9 >= 3D. Alternatively, the referee may
prefer to apply the target modifier as a negative DM on the die roll, i.e.
Maria would require Lockpick >= 3D+9.

The precise probabilities of success between the various rule sets will
vary, as these modifiers were chosen for playability and are intended only
as guidelines. Naturally, the referee should adjust the target numbers or
die rolls as appropriate to make the game enjoyable!

END OF EXTRACT

<END EXTRACT OF POST FROM ANDY LILLY>

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 23:23:42 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Doggie Breath

On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:57:14 -0500, "Roger Barr"
<rogerbarr@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>>While breeding is
>>>impossible and who would want to kiss something with doggie
>>>breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there
>>>8^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species
>>>couldn't find something in common which attracted them to one
>>>another and kept them together for the long term.

>>Challenge 49.  There's an article about Mendan sector and the
>>Julian Protectorate, in which something called the "panet"
>>relationship is described.

>Would that be similar to the Life-Debt concept keeping Chewbacca at Han 
>Solo's side?
>:)

Not the way I read it.  However, I could see a "life-debt" as
forming the basis for a similarly close relationship between an
_Aslan_ and a human...

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 00:03:14 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #251

On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:02:45 -0500, "Joseph Kimball"
<HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:

>I have made a compliation of the debate so far (though not all the
>discussion leading up to it).  The interaction of my email program and
>MS Word 97 meant that all the entries are half a page wide.  The total
>length of this (half-page-wide, single-spaced) debate thread so far is
>42 pages long!

Whoa!  I've been picking up most of it as well, and I'm nowhere
near this.  Obviously, you're picking up side threads that I
either missed or dismissed.

>There hasn't been much activity on this thread in the last several
>days, but I think it likely that everyone is pondering on their next
>entries (like me).

That's definitely the case for both Gallatin and Dilgaadin;
there's also the added complication that both seem to have caught
a Terran virus that seems to cause minor respiratory distress,
minor aches (especially headaches), and general lethargy.

(Jeff's managed to catch a cold...)

>                    The initial positions seem all present now, several
>wanting the status quo, several wanting moderate changes, and several
>radical changes.  Then there are several "foreign parties" who have
>entered the fray.

Only one, to date - the Embassy staffer from the Zho embassy at
Capital.  Sam is a self-declared Imperial of Solomani descent.
The Vargr posting as Soegz is pretty conclusively an Imperial
Vargr supporter of Brzk, though I disagree with INI's evaluation
of it being Brzk himself.

I can tell you that Gallatin was somewhat incensed about the
"interference" in an Imperial policy debate represented by the
staffer's post; it took a while to calm him down.  Dilgaadin was
also annoyed, but there were no flames in the offing.

>I am hoping to get some time to add these to my site soon (as long as
>it doesn't step on your toes too much, Jeff).  This is definitely a fun
>thread, though it takes more thinking than most.

Go for it!  It'll eventually be going up on Freelance Traveller
as well, with the idea of using it to introduce a new section
(and hopefully a new series of 'policy debate' threads, either
here or via a 'bbs/forum' type thingy at FT).  Do please do me a
favor, and forward a copy to me, at my cyburban address, of what
you've gathered, so that I can cross-check against what I have.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 19:06:51 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
> 
> As some of you may know, I maintain a watching brief over TML threads for
> Andy Lilly, as he rarely has time to keep up with the high volume of mail
> on the list. The discussions of task systems for GT prompted by Eris
> 'Heretic' Reddoch lead to me sending him Eris' proposal. Eris had kindly
> offered to let us use his system. Anyway, Andy responded as shown below, as
> he had already been thinking on this topic. Comments on the system proposed
> below would be welcome.
> 
> Dom (BITS Webmaster, TML Observer ;-) )
> 
< Snipped Bits (pun intended !)

Darn it, Dom! I really like this idea. In fact I'm writing a new
adventure now and planned on asking Eris if I could include it (
Hopefully to web publish when it's done and tested). Now I'll have to
pay BITS royalties too!

All that aside, I think the idea is a great addition to GURPS. I've
played GURPS since the boxed set came out and think this simplifies the
process. I'll let you know how it works soon, since I plan to introduce
it when I get to run a game again (probably about a month), REAL WORLD
(tm) is really in crunch mode just now.

- --
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:37:04 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

	I've been considering using David Drake's "Redliners" as an adventure source.
If you haven't read this  book, it is a case of really dangerous vegetables.
The plants in a forest have been developed to kill people in a vast variety of
cruel and unexpected ways, really really nasty.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 21:09:16 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)

"Peter H. Brenton" wrote:

> Heretic Class Jump Torpedo

These should probably be manufactured by Reddoch Industries.

;-)


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:29:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Robo-Rifle

At 11:03 AM 3/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
>ABC.com has an interesting story on the San Francisco
>Police Dept.'s testing of a wide-based, tripod-mounted,
>remote control sniper rifle.

Sgt Sloan, one of the officers mentioned, is one of the people who helped
reality test ACQ.

(plug plug plug)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 22:32:36 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was: Smallpox)

On 03/04/99 at 05:27 PM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>> Share, please!  My AKUS group may be heading into the great unknown
>> one of these days and having them run into some humans-not quite
>> humans is something I've been thinking about.

>What is AKUS?

One of the PBEM's I'm running is named after its dead patron, Akus
Moby...hence AKUS or AKU for short.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:01:33 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: [none]

Michel Vaillancourt & I have been working on a 1000 ton luxury liner for
Classic Traveller.

Michel's working on the stats and has got it making a profit.

I'm almost done with the deckplans....

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/images/Liner.gif

As always... comments welcome/desired.
Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Mar 99 23:26:38 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Torp for MT (Heresy follows)

On 03/05/99 at 09:09 PM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:



>"Peter H. Brenton" wrote:

>> Heretic Class Jump Torpedo

>These should probably be manufactured by Reddoch Industries.

>;-)

The firm, registered with ISBA, is Michaelson Coil and Impeller
(MCI), a subsidiary of Rannoch House, CEO Duke James Reid och
Rannoch.  ;->

But IMTU, jump torpedoes don't work...yet.  ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:12:59 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Ship Update 1.03.00

I didn't get "everything" in here that everybody wanted, but I did get 
quite a few different things.  I hope I satisfied most of you.

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Enhancements:
Added a new property to all modules; Notes.  Someday, this will be 
printed out with the ship.

Library Data, Damage Control, Datalink, Autopilot, Tactical Autopilot,
Autonomous Ops and Std Personality programs added to ship 
during initialization

Option to add Library Data, Damage Control, Datalink, Autopilot, 
Tactical Autopilot, Autonomous Ops and Personality programs to 
ship during Bridge configuration

Option to add Astrogation program to ship during Jump Drive 
configuration

Added ability to select multiple copies of the same program.

Added custom missile and sand canister support.  Removed the 
included weight for missiles and sand canister from the turret 
selection.  You must now select your load out (it is three more 
mouse clicks)

List Free Turret and Bay spaces as addendum to Cargo Space

Custom Nuclear Dampers

Custom Meson Screen

Lock Meson DR

Lock Range of Nuclear damper,

Populate utility modules automatically

Weapon quantity default to one not zero

Set Cargo to float with Remaining space

Maintain MDrive Units and Locked Acc Units (Round-off error may 
still cause values to fluxuate one way or the other).

Maintain JDrive Units and Locked Jump Drive Rating between 
checks

JDrive Unit increment based on Hull Tonnage size

Command line parameter -> ship file input e.g. gts Beowulf.gtv 
launches GURPS Traveller Ships and loads the Beowulf ship file
Change default ship name to New Ship Name (grumble, grumble ...)

Hitting ESC to close dialog boxes

Fixes
Hitting enter on a dialog box brought up another dialog box.

Synchronization of Acceleration Locked checkboxes

Maneuver mispelling

Emission mispelling

Print out Stealth info

Placed dTons on Hull Description Line

International support for decimals and thousands tokens.

Coming up:

Checkboxes for appropriate software modules, Gunnery, Targeting

Validity check turns bad values red (though there shouldn't be too 
many of these ... just in the "required" areas like Jump Drive ... I 
think that's all.

Aux systems should not be printed if not there.

Different Hull Material

Reduce printout size

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 00:15:20 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

On 03/05/99 at 07:06 PM,  Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> said:

>Darn it, Dom! I really like this idea. In fact I'm writing a new
>adventure now and planned on asking Eris if I could include it (
>Hopefully to web publish when it's done and tested). Now I'll have to
>pay BITS royalties too!

No you don't!  I didn't give BITS *exclusive* rights to use my
ideas, Andy's draft system doesn't match up exactly with mine, and
IAC, I doubt either of us are the first folks to have thought of 2
or 3 step scales for difficulties.  ;->

I guess I should expand on my ideas a little...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:40:09 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Invasion of Colchis II (long)

A High Guard scenario I mentioned earlier...

TO: Interested mercenaries and world governments.
FROM: His Majesty Eric Kane of Colchis II. (c/o Imperial Subsector 
Capital.)

In a recent uprising, rebel elements of our society took control of Colchis 
II.
Many members of our family were killed or imprisoned, leaving us as 
rightful
king of Colchis and head of Colchis' government in exile.

The Imperial government has recognized the rebel leadership as the current
government of Colchis, even though loyal members of our armed forces still 
resist the tyranny of the rebel coalition. If assistance can reach our 
loyal
subjects, this rebellion can still be put down.

We have gathered together 1000 experienced men and 5000 tons of war 
material for delivery to our loyal subjects on Colchis II. To that end,  we 
are
seeking the use of a war fleet capable of neutralizing the rebel defense 
fleet and delivering the liberation forces to the planet surface.

Our intelligence assets have discovered the following information about the 
rebel defense fleet at Colchis:

1.	The rebels are devoting approximately MCr2000 per year to fleet
maintenance.  (This indicates a build value of approximately MCr 20000.)

2.	Approximately 800 naval crewmen and 250 marines are serving aboard
ships at any time.

3.	All functioning vessels are operating at TL12.

4.	With the exception of twelve 400tn vessels of various types (converted
armed merchants and patrol vessels), none of the ships of the defense fleet 
are jump-capable.

5.	Passive observation indicates the fleet consists of two 5000tn vessels
(one operating as a fighter carrier), two 1000tn vessels, and twenty sub-
1000tn vessels (including the twelve jump-capable craft).  There are also
an indeterminate number of small craft, approximately 100.

The responding war fleet must be capable of Jump-3 to make the voyage to
the Colchis system.  Colchis has a gas giant available for refueling
purposes, and a standard atmosphere. The men and material must be
carried on ships that can land through this atmosphere, or there must be
sufficient craft carried to deploy the men and material in a reasonable
amount of time (10 trips or fewer).

Our funds for charter and support of the invasion fleet are strictly 
limited, and
therefore we must accept the lowest bid capable of performing the task.
Furthermore, the status of Colchis as a class 2 client state of the 
Imperium
will effectively prohibit use of technology above TL12 for the invasion 
fleet.
Through special arrangements we will be able to provide nuclear missile
loads to the invasion fleet - we understand the rebels have nuclear missile 
loads as well.

We look forward to the oncoming liberation of our homeworld. Death to the
rebels!!

His majesty,
King Eric Kane
Sovereign of Colchis

- --------------------------------
To reiterate:
Bids are currently being taken for a Jump-3, TL12 force capable of 
defeating
a MCr 20000 system defense force and delivering 1000 men and 5000tns of
materials to a standard-atmosphere planet surface. Low bidder gets the
contract. High Guard Sec. Ed. + Trillion Credit Squadron rules will be 
used,
as will the same fighter squadron rules in use for the current Islands 
Cluster
campaign. IRC is the preferred method of resolving the combat.

Any takers?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #253
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, March 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 254



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

HIWG CD-ROM
Re: OT: Aliens
Re: Nastiest Monster
GT Attribute & Skill Musings
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: Racial Cooperation
Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!
Re: Lensmen series
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #248
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)
Towercon change of venue
Re: Sand Caster Question
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Freelance Traveller: Call For Feedback

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:38:28 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD-ROM

	Okay, I owe the following four people copies (just as soon as I deposit your
checks and get the necessary postage; not necessarily in that order):

David Nelson
BrClif
Jason Kemp
Paul Schirf

	Which brings me to the other point. There are ONLY 6 COPIES LEFT for this
year.


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 00:54:32 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Aliens

greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com wrote:

> > In fact, they may not even be able to infest herbivores (though I'd
> > find that a little strange)
>
> Didn't the original story for Alien 3, have the infected animal as an
> ox, not a dog.  (Watch the bulkheads crumple as the ox-alien hybrid
> charges down the corridors.)

Or worse yet Climbs the trees...

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 00:57:23 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>         I've been considering using David Drake's "Redliners" as an adventure source.
> If you haven't read this  book, it is a case of really dangerous vegetables.
> The plants in a forest have been developed to kill people in a vast variety of
> cruel and unexpected ways, really really nasty.

Can you say Semi-Senent Hell World...

Am working on modeling the weapons thou..

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 01:38:06 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: GT Attribute & Skill Musings

Here are a few musings I've done over the last few days concerning
GT, random characters and conversions of Trav characters over to GT
levels.  I'm less concerned with producing a GURPS character and
more getting a Traveller one with the right ranges of values for
play in a GURPS mechanics system...

Converting a Traveller Character (2d6) to a similar character in
GURPS:

Attributes:

  TA (Traveller Attribute) = 1 to 15     TA  GA
  GA (GURPS Attribute) = 8 to 16         ======
                                          1   8
  GA = for the first 12 of TA             2   8
       7 + (TA/2), up                     3   9
       then +1 for each point             4   9
       above that                         5  10
                                          6  10
  This gives a nice range of              7  11
  random numbers, but doesn't             8  11
  create as many 'sports' on the          9  12
  edges.                                 10  12
                                         11  13
  I like this much better than           12  13
  GA = TA + 3 (4 to 18)                  13  14
                                         14  15
  Personally, I'd keep all the           15  16
  Traveller Attributes (EDU, CHA,
  SOC, & PSI...if you use it) GURPS 
  or not.
  
Skills:

     TS (Traveller Skills) = 0 to 6+
     GS (GURPS Skills) = 5- to 20+
     
 1.  Find GURPS Listing for Skills getting...
 
     a.  Controlling Attribute (consider spliting IQ into INT, EDU,
         CHA & SOC; or better yet use the controlling attribute
         suggested by MT or TNE)
     
     b.  Difficulty of Skill (this is a concept Trav hasn't had, so
         you'll *have* to find this is GURPS)
 
 2.  Find the MOD (from table below).
 
  Difficulty     
   of Skill   MOD  
  ===============   These numbers match those in GURPS 
  Easy         0    for an Att+0 level.  
  Average     -1
  Hard        -2    Unlike GURPS, additional skill points
  Very Hard   -3    don't cost increased amounts, a pt is a pt.
  
 3. Calculate Skill Level.
 
      GS = Controlling Attribute + MOD + TS
    
Try running some Traveller characters through this and see if they
don't convert pretty well.

Next step, generating *new* characters.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:49:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

In mail you write:

>
>
> Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>
>>         A favorite amongst Canadian Naval engineers is sending newbie from
>> aft machinery compartment to ask the duty tech in the forward machinery
>> compartment for "the long weight".... (parse with "wait" and you see the
>> result ;)
>>         "I need a bucket of prop-wash" is another common request.....
>
> I always liked to send Middies out for 5 fathoms of  water line.

Be careful. If you are in port and the middie has certain sorts
civilian experience he's going to come back with one sort or another of
pipe used for house construction or sprinkler systems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:58:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

In mail you write:

> Shadowcat wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>If you're willing to ignore the "non-human" stipulation in the original
>>request, then I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of
>>PCs can ever face is...another group of PCs.  Savagely bloodthirsty,
>>hideously well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning.  (Just
>>like the first group of PCs.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I'll never forget the look of fear on my player's faces in the midst of a
> Champions game...when one of them softly said, "We're f**ked. They're
> thinking like player characters..."
>
> <weg>

Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:17:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Racial Cooperation

In mail you write:

> In message <990304.010154.0w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
> Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>>Of course, the Chtorr are worse. Being on the wrong end of a
>>"terraforming" project is not good. Especially when all the evidence
>>points towards the new ecosystem being one that's far *older* than
>>Earth's. In the sense of having had a billion or so more years
>>experience at coming out on top. 
>
> I know someone who cited the fact that the Chtorr trilogy finished after
> two books as proof of the existance of a benevolent God.

Then they aren't paying attention. There was a third book. Maybe even a
fourth (it's been a *long* time). It's still unfinished though.

I'll cheerfully admit to wanting to strangle some of the characters at
times. I also recognize the fact that I'm *supposed* to feel that way
about them.

But it is a neat concept and background.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:34:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

In mail you write:

>>And read the *book*. The movie took extreme liberties with the plot and
>
> Read the books!  Remember there were three books.

There were? The others must have been very much afterthoughts then. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:21:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads!

In mail you write:

> Leonard wrote:
>
>>The US captured a U-boat *intact*. It's still on display at the Chicago
>
>>Museum of Science and Industry. But Admiral (then Lieutant?) Gallery
>>led the boarding party that closed the seacocks and turned off the
>>destruct charges.
>
> Captain Gallery commanding a jeep carrier with 3? destroyers as
> escorts.  He wa in command but did not enter the sub until it was safely
> in tow.  Also it his idea to capture the sub, orders were to sink any
> sub seen.
> (I read his book on this incedent)

I know that he's written at *least* one book of fiction about life on
a carrier ("Now Hear This"). I recommend it as an example of the sort
of hijinks naval personnel indulge in.

If there are any other books that form a "series" with "Now Hear This"
*please* let me know.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:52:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

In mail you write:

> If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print again.
> The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
> worth it, my oldest kid wanted *my* set).
> The SciFi Book club also has the first three available in a single hardcover.

I was surprised to see that J. Michael Strazinksi recommends them!

I want the UWP for Trenco. :-)

And Zabriskan could be fun.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:39:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #248

In mail you write:

>>Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster
>
>>> >> What are the nastiest aliens that have appeared in Traveller form,
>>> >> either in published form or in personal campaigns? Post them non-human
>>> >> monsters, baby!
> The Grendels from Niven's 'Legacy of Heorot' can be extremely nasty when 
> they go on 'speed'. And when you've killed all the adults your troubles are 
> just starting...

All I'll say is that in "Beowulf's Children" we find out that there are
things on the main continent that even grendels hide from!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

I've never used either of these, but I think the two nastiest monsters
are: 

1. One of the creatures from John W. Campbell's "Who goes there?" They
   were depicted fairly accurately in the John Carpenter version of
   "The Thing". I advise reading the book anyway, as it'll make it
   clearer just *how* bad the situation is.
   Basicly, the alien is a shapeshifter that is intelligent and aquires
   the memories of the creatures it eats. So if it kills a party
   member, it can *succesfully* impersonate him. It reproduces by
   "budding", So if you cut it in half, you now have two of them.
   There *is* a way to figure out which party members have been
   replaced. But I won't tell you. You can read the book.  The book is
   the *worst* possible thing to read on a dark and stormy night if you
   are out in the middle of nowhere with only a few friends. :-)

2. The Hlaat. These are from one of James Schmitz's stories. The name
   means "rock lion". They resemble a big furry carpet. They have an
   interesting ability. They can move thru solid matter and carry
   objects with them.
   It's apparently a psi ability and they have some sort of
   ability to sense their surroundings surroundings while inside
   objects. They have pretty fine control over their abilities.
   For example, at one point, one of them grabs someone in battle
   dress. They later find the top half of the suit sticking out of the
   floor in a corridor. The person wearing it wasn't inside. And the
   bottom half was left elsewhere.
   A standard attack for them is to lurk just under the surface and
   wait for prey to walk over, they then drag them into the ground and
   have lunch. :-)
   At least one bad guy has just enough time to realize that the
   corridor didn't have a carpet the last time he walked down it... :-)

   In the story, a couple of them were being transported in special low
   berths, accompanied by their "keepers". Someone mistakenly thought
   it was a cover for transporting a shipment of jewels and tried to
   hijack them. Oops!
   An extra, secret detail was that Hlaats are *intelligent and
   telepathic. So their attacks were set up to cause the maximum amount
   of psychological damage. Grabbing the last man from a column, that
   sort of thing.
   They are actually quite peaceful. They didn't kill the guy in the
   battle dress, they just stuffed him in a low berth. On the other
   hand, when one was under energy weapons fire, it *did* leave one of
   the bad guys halfway thru a wall. Messy way to die.

Hlaats are best used on a small isolated space station or a medium to
large ship. That way there's no outside help available for a long but
more or less known period, but the space is restricted enough that you
can *try* to sweep it for them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:25:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>>Darn it, Dom! I really like this idea. In fact I'm writing a new
>>adventure now and planned on asking Eris if I could include it (
>>Hopefully to web publish when it's done and tested). Now I'll have to
>>pay BITS royalties too!
>
>No you don't!  I didn't give BITS *exclusive* rights to use my
>ideas, Andy's draft system doesn't match up exactly with mine, and
>IAC, I doubt either of us are the first folks to have thought of 2
>or 3 step scales for difficulties.  ;->

Correct. Andy had been working on something at the same time as Eris and
asked me to post the material to (1) get a feel what people thought of it,
and (2) try to make it clear he wasn't trying to rip anyone off. The
material posted is very much a draft and will probably go in future BITS
adventure supplements.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:20:23 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

I ran an early Fantasy Trip game Where all but one of my reagular
players were hire to protect a wealthy merchant from the Assasins guild
(the A.G. in that world had rules, announcement of the the assasination,
and the Day it was to be performed, if the target survived 24 hours the
contract was cancelled. Few survived). Anyway, one player was extremely
bloodthursty, in a sneaky, lowdown, devious... oops sorry, way. I
enlisted him and handed him two high level, well equipt characters (lots
of equipment converted from Busido if I remember right).

I laid out two maps of the target house in different rooms. Assasin in
one room, other players in the next room. Then proceeded to move back
and forth telling each what they "saw". It was an awsome game! The
tension built like a movie with neither side really knowing what was
going on! 

One memorable moment came when the PCs thought they had one of the
assasins trapped in the cooks room ( a little old lady). They broke
through the door and proceeded to stab the robe clad "assasin" to death,
the cook, dressed in robes ran screaming from the room! Then they pulled
the mask of the "assasin" and found... the cook! 

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
> so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
> When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...
> 

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 13:23:41 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Towercon change of venue

To those travellers planning to attend Towercon:

Note that the Towercon venue has changed to Queens Hotel, South
Promenade, Blackpool, UK [change due to hotel staff error]. Same dates
12th-14th March. I have more info if anyone wants it [off list].

To everyone else, sorry for the wasted bandwidth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 13:07:35 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Sand Caster Question

>> How much volume does one (1) Sand Canister ... not Caster ...
>>consume?  I can't seem to find it in GT.

>In CT special supplement 3, Missiles; one missile rack can hold three
>missiles. In addition; the turret can hold another 12 missiles in it.

In G:T you can store 77 missiles in the magazine in each 500cf
mount (3 mounts to a turret) plus presumably one in the launcher.

This is quite an achievement as a G:T missile is 6 cf.
So *at least* 462 cf (77 * 6cf) is occupied by missiles 
leaving 38 cf for the missile launcher, the magazine rack,
dead space and one third of a "roomy" crew station.

Doesn't sound right does it?  Is there errata for this?
...
> Missiles weigh 55kg, (50 for the missile and 5
>for the shipping container), and have a volume of one meter in length,
>and a diameter of 15 cm (a cylinder).

G:T missiles weigh 135 kg (300lbs). 
G:T Sand-canisters weight 55 Kg (120lbs).
You can store 200 canisters in a 500cf sandcaster mount (3 mounts per
turret).

I had assumed they were about a third the volume of a missile = 2 cf.

Using your CT figures would make them only two-thirds of a cubic foot,
(with a density of 3g/cm3). 200 would occupy 127 cf.  This sounds about
right.

In fact using this as a basis you should be able to store 77 missiles
*per turret*.

What gives?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:28:29 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

Dom, 

First, so that everyone realizes, I was kidding. I DO however, think
it's an excellent idea!

I "missed" most of the MT material when it was first published, so one
of the BEST things I saw when I came back to Traveller with TNE was the
task system! It makes it so much easier to keep "off the cuff" rulings
straight, not to mention a nice short hand system to impart information
while writting adventures.

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
> 
> >>Darn it, Dom! I really like this idea. In fact I'm writing a new
> >>adventure now and planned on asking Eris if I could include it (
> >>Hopefully to web publish when it's done and tested). Now I'll have to
> >>pay BITS royalties too!
> >
> >No you don't!  I didn't give BITS *exclusive* rights to use my
> >ideas, Andy's draft system doesn't match up exactly with mine, and
> >IAC, I doubt either of us are the first folks to have thought of 2
> >or 3 step scales for difficulties.  ;->
> 
> Correct. Andy had been working on something at the same time as Eris and
> asked me to post the material to (1) get a feel what people thought of it,
> and (2) try to make it clear he wasn't trying to rip anyone off. The
> material posted is very much a draft and will probably go in future BITS
> adventure supplements.
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 09:12:00 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

At 10:49 PM 3/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>
>>
>> Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>
>>>         A favorite amongst Canadian Naval engineers is sending newbie from
>>> aft machinery compartment to ask the duty tech in the forward machinery
>>> compartment for "the long weight".... (parse with "wait" and you see the
>>> result ;)
>>>         "I need a bucket of prop-wash" is another common request.....
>>
>> I always liked to send Middies out for 5 fathoms of  water line.
>
>Be careful. If you are in port and the middie has certain sorts
>civilian experience he's going to come back with one sort or another of
>pipe used for house construction or sprinkler systems.

I still remember hearing of a petty officer I knew in the navy finding a
recruit at the base store crying her eyes out because she couldn't find any
gig line.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 13:23:26 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

On 03/06/99 at 08:28 AM,  Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> said:

>First, so that everyone realizes, I was kidding.

I, for one, did.  ;-> I also hope everyone realizes I was being
light-hearted as well.

>I DO however, think it's an excellent idea!

You bet!

>I "missed" most of the MT material when it was first published, so
>one of the BEST things I saw when I came back to Traveller with TNE
>was the task system! It makes it so much easier to keep "off the
>cuff" rulings straight, not to mention a nice short hand system to
>impart information while writting adventures.

I agree.  I honestly like the "roll target number or lower"
techniques better than the MT/CT roll higher techniques, but that's
personal taste.  In either case, standard levels of difficulty and
descriptive names for things make playing the game much better,
again IMO.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 13:58:25 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

I've become interested in the structure of the Imperial Bureaucracy in
Traveller, as it has evolved over time from little references here and
there in published material. Whereas a complete book on the subject -- as
the title of this posts suggests -- might possibly be the most boring
sourcebook known to intelligent life everywhere (except Bwaps), a list of
established offices and ministries and their relationships to one another
might prove a useful tool for future authors.

Here's what I've gleaned from my CT/MT/GT materials so far; I'll move on to
other versions of Traveller next, though I'm not sure how applicable what I
find will be to GT. I am soliciting your assistance: please send me the
name of any Imperial bureaucratic organization you find in canon, along
with a page reference and its place in the hierarchy (if known). I'll post
occasional updates as new information warrants, and eventually put the
whole edifice up on the web.

One interesting point is that the IISS has never been assigned to a
cabinet-level organization. I've placed it in MoI&C for convenience, but
I'd be interested to see a canonical answer.

Imperial Family/Household (various) [not technically part of Imperial
bureaucracy]
	Office of the Emperor (Supp 11, p. 15; Dragon #87, p. 76, by MWM)
		Minister of Protocol (Surv Marg, p. 27)
		Chencellor
	Office of Personal Transportation (Trav Adv, p. 00)
	Imperial Reservations (Supp 3, p.2)
	Ancients Foundation (with IISS) (Adv 4, p. 41)

Nobility (various) 
	Moot/Peerage (various)
		Imperial Regency of Intelligence and Security (various) [may be
apochryphal]

Ministry of Colonization (various)
Ministry of Commerce (various)
	Trading Standards Bureau (Adv 4, p. 10)
	Imperial Treasury (GT:FT, pp. 5-9)
		Office of the Mint (Ch #29, p. 22)
		monetary board (GT:FT, p. 7)
	Shipping Commission (GT:FT, p. 74)
	Starport Authority (JTAS #19, pp. 37-42)
Ministry of Conservation (Adv 1, p. 4; Supp 3, p. 32 [this instance may be
an error for 	Ministry of Colonization])
Ministry of Defense (Supp 11, p. 15)
	Admiralty/Naval Office (Supp 9, p. 5; Ch #31, pp. 32-33)
		[Imperial Marine Corps?]
	[Army Office?]
Ministry of Information and Communication (Ch #44, p. 35, Surv Marg, p. 33)
	Imperial Interstellar Scout Service [?] (various)
	Censor Bureau (Surv Marg, p. 29)
Ministry of Justice (various)
	Imperial Prisons (Supp 3, p. 2)
	Exile Camps (Supp 3, p. 2)
Ministry of State (Supp 6, p. 14)
	Ambassadors Extraordinary and Ministers Plenipotentiary (Surv Marg, pp.
28, 31; GT:FT, p. 73)
	Consulates (Trav Adv, p. 97)
		Consul 
		Visas, Pensions, and Veterans Affairs (Trav Adv, p. 97)
		Citizenship, Protection, and Welfare (Trav Adv, p. 97)
		Shipping and Merchant Affairs (Trav Adv, p. 97)
	Embassies
		Ambassador/Legate (GT:FT, pp. 73-74)
		Commercial Attache (GT:FT, p. 74)
		Military Attache (Book 4, p. 9)
		Naval Attache (Book 5, p. 9)
	Imperial Diplomatic Corps/Foreign Service (Supp 4, p. 5, 24; GT:FT, pp.
73-74, 81)
	"Imperial secret service" / "Intelligence Agency" (Supp 6, p. 36; Supp
11, p. 15)
Ministry of Technology  (Ch #43, p. 24)
	Research Stations
	Imperial University (JTAS #16, p. 16)
	Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine (JTAS #22, pp. 18-23)
		Imperial Science Union (ibid.) 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:29:17 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller: Call For Feedback

Recently, an idea occurred to me: in addition to all of the
directly Traveller-related materials that Freelance Traveller
currently offers, it might be worthwhile to offer some less
Traveller-related material, but in a way that doesn't seem to
dilute or compromise Freelance Traveller's mission.

The specific idea is to allow book reviews of science fiction
that has a Traveller-esque feel to it, or that you feel that
Traveller players would enjoy reading.  Both of those are
admittedly quite fuzzy criteria; I'm open to suggestions on how
to tighten them up.

Is this a good idea?  Would you be willing to read articles in
this section, if it were to happen?  Would you be willing to
_write_ articles in this section, if it were to happen?  What
should be said in the reviews?  Should this be a subsection of
Critics' Corner, or should I open up a new section entirely?  How
would _you_ decide whether a particular book should be eligible
for inclusion?  What other questions should I be asking here, and
what's your answer to them?

(P.S. - Aren't things like this and The Debate better uses of TML
bandwidth than things like bashing Clif? :) )
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #254
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, March 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 255



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

06 Mar 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Re: Trenco & Zabriska UWPs
Re: Freelance Traveller: Call For Feedback
Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
: Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: GT Attribute & Skill Musings
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Nastiest Monster (Rant)
Re: : Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: What's My Mileau?
Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Re: Lensmen series
Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Nastiest Monster)
Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Lensmen series
Daniel Gallery Fiction
IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
Re: Lensmen series

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:37:27 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: 06 Mar 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  With
this update, a new type of article can be found in Raconteur's
Rest, under the heading of "The Lost Diaries", with Rob
Eaglestone providing the first of the genre.  Also, Dave Nelson
provides a new and creative solution to the problem of
transporting large groups of people, for the Traveller Solution
Series, under Doing It My Way.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-1999.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:05:07 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Trenco & Zabriska UWPs

Shadow wrote
<<SNIP>>
>I want the UWP for Trenco. :-)
>
>And Zabriskan could be fun.
<<UNSNIP>>

Lurking somewhere I have GURPS Lensman & I think that has UWP's of sorts...
I'll look it up asap.


Jeff R.
"This must be Monday.  I never could get the hang of Mondays."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:24:27 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller: Call For Feedback

In a message dated 3/6/99 4:30:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jzeitlin@cyburban.com writes:

<<  Should this be a subsection of
 Critics' Corner, or should I open up a new section entirely?  How
 would _you_ decide whether a particular book should be eligible
 for inclusion?  What other questions should I be asking here, and
 what's your answer to them?
  >>

	I think that a review database for Sci-Fi novels (and perhaps, films and TV)
would be great!   It should be a separate section from the game reviews.
There have been several times recently that I wish there was somewhere to post
a review about a Sci-Fi book or movie that related to Traveller, sounds really
good.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 17:56:11 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> I've become interested in the structure of the Imperial Bureaucracy in
> Traveller, as it has evolved over time from little references here and
> there in published material. Whereas a complete book on the subject -- as
> the title of this posts suggests -- might possibly be the most boring
> sourcebook known to intelligent life everywhere (except Bwaps), a list of
> established offices and ministries and their relationships to one another
> might prove a useful tool for future authors.

I agree totally.  I even tried to create one for Milieu 0, but I've misplaced it.
I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but FWIW,
from Milieu 0 (pp.46-47):

The Nobility
The Moot
The Bureacracy:
   The Military
      Army
      Navy
          Marines
   The Office of Standards (covers trade, justice, etc.)
      Office of Calendar Compliance
          The Imperial Office of Justice (later Ministry of Justice)
   The Scout and Exploratory Services (later IISS)
   The Ministry of Information
   The Diplomatic Corps

Although discussed, the Bureau of Interstellar Affairs is not clearly affiliated
with
any other named office.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:13:03 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>I've never used either of these, but I think the two nastiest monsters
>are:

Similarly I haven't used them in Traveller, but something akin to the
Ravers in Thomas Covenant would give me the creeps. I'm not overly
enamoured with the series, but could imagine a nasty Psi based monster like
it.

Another one I remember being bad for players was one I stole from an
Imagine magazine (sort of TSR UKs local version of Dragon). This had a
small woodlouse like creature which numbed the skin of a victim, then
burrowed in and laid eggs. The scene that springs to mind was the pilot
panicking when searching the engine room when another player pointed a snub
pistol at his head (to shoot the bug that had landed on it). )When the
creatures burrowed in, they sent the victim mad with pain).

The other big literary nasty that springs to mind was the keeper in B5.
(Bylabon in 101 Lifeforms). I suppose that, which is also a
psionic/possession type nasty may say more about me than how nasty the
monster is.

Dom

PS happy Birthday Rob Prior ! ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:18:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> wrote:

>First, so that everyone realizes, I was kidding. I DO however, think
>it's an excellent idea!

OK ;-)

>I "missed" most of the MT material when it was first published, so one
>of the BEST things I saw when I came back to Traveller with TNE was the
>task system! It makes it so much easier to keep "off the cuff" rulings
>straight, not to mention a nice short hand system to impart information
>while writting adventures.

From the perspective of an author (supplements and adventures), having a
combined/interlinked task system is great.

Most TNE, MT and T4 refs can interpolate between the systems. Adding a
basic conversion for task difficulties means GT and CT refs can do the
same. This means one supplement can cover a variety of systems. Traveller
is possibly unique in all the bigger systems in having 5 current system
versions, and a sixth planned, which poses its own problems.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:20:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: : Re: [BITS] Task System notes

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>I agree.  I honestly like the "roll target number or lower"
>techniques better than the MT/CT roll higher techniques, but that's
>personal taste.  In either case, standard levels of difficulty and
>descriptive names for things make playing the game much better,
>again IMO.

Eris, I'd love to agree with you here but wouldn't agreeing with *the*
heretic make me a heretic too?

I prefer T4.1's system to MT, but I play T4.1 with HG for starships.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:56:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:17:08 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

OK, I have my own bias toward the system I put in the GURPS
Traveller article some years ago (and which seems to be the
father of all these approaches :-).  Based on that...

>Table 1: Common Difficulty Ratings
>Difficulty		CT Target	GT Target
>		Modifier	Modifier
>Easy		-4	+6
>Routine		-2	+3
>Normal		0	0
>Difficult		+2	-3
>Formidable	+4	-6
>Staggering	+6	-9
>Impossible		+8	-12
>Hopeless		+10	-15

I dropped out the "Hopeless" catagory since it really is redundant
with "Impossible" and I really don't see the need for a -15 modifier
(I've never run into a situation where a player was willing to try
something at a -15 :-).  But I guess that is more an issue with
T4 and you are trying to adapt to that.

Also, my system ended at -3, mostly because (as a GM) I never
felt the need for guidance on the easier things.  Going up
to a +6 is good (for characters that are doing things off of
their defaults).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:35:18 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT Attribute & Skill Musings

Sat, 06 Mar 99 01:38:06 -0600, "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
>Attributes:
>
>  TA (Traveller Attribute) = 1 to 15     TA  GA
>  GA (GURPS Attribute) = 8 to 16         ======
>                                          1   8
>  GA = for the first 12 of TA             2   8
>       7 + (TA/2), up                     3   9
>       then +1 for each point             4   9
>       above that                         5  10
>                                          6  10
>  This gives a nice range of              7  11
>  random numbers, but doesn't             8  11
>  create as many 'sports' on the          9  12
>  edges.                                 10  12
>                                         11  13
>  I like this much better than           12  13
>  GA = TA + 3 (4 to 18)                  13  14
>                                         14  15
>  Personally, I'd keep all the           15  16
>  Traveller Attributes (EDU, CHA,
>  SOC, & PSI...if you use it) GURPS
>  or not.

Note: GURPS characters do sometime have stats down to 7 on
100 points.  This rare, but then so, IMO at least :-), is
a Traveller stat of 1 or 2.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:41:47 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:25:49 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>>Darn it, Dom! I really like this idea. In fact I'm writing a new
>>>adventure now and planned on asking Eris if I could include it (
>>>Hopefully to web publish when it's done and tested). Now I'll have to
>>>pay BITS royalties too!

>>No you don't!  I didn't give BITS *exclusive* rights to use my
>>ideas, Andy's draft system doesn't match up exactly with mine, and
>>IAC, I doubt either of us are the first folks to have thought of 2
>>or 3 step scales for difficulties.  ;->

>Correct. Andy had been working on something at the same time as Eris and
>asked me to post the material to (1) get a feel what people thought of it,
>and (2) try to make it clear he wasn't trying to rip anyone off. The
>material posted is very much a draft and will probably go in future BITS
>adventure supplements.

In fact this stuff has been around at least since I posted
my GURPS Traveller article some years ago.  I have no problem
with people borrowing the idea (and game mechanics aren't
copyrightable anyway, though an acknowledgement is always nice :-).
In fact, if want to actually copy the passage from my article, you
have  my permission (though it isn't clear why one would _want_
to go that far :-) as long as you mention where it came from.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:31 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster (Rant)

The nastiest monster I've ever used in CT gaming was one of those small
insidious beasties that lurk in and arround starports and often accompanies
imperium forces. Namely, the tax official.

In brief they can often move amongst humaniti having a similar physical
apperance, though their speech is discisable they can't immitate it for
long. Rumors persist that they can even interbreed with humaniti though the
offspring are said to be fortunately sterile and unable to socialise with
us.

They communicate amongst each other in a language seldom comprehended even
by Vilani of the AAB. Somehow they are able to access the Xboat network,
though Xboat officials denigh this.

Their econiche is intermittent, as they can be found feeding from the
carrion of deceased estates and the stripped carcases of bankrupt
companies, pouncing on the unwiry at customs posts, stalking in the
corporate jungle and even reducing earnings within greater financial
institutions. In their (alleged) natural form they are tirless hunters
taking from all but the craftiest of predators who hide their kills with
utmost care. * Some claim they are also symbiots, no eveidence of this has
been presented to me of this.

The most notworthy attribute they possess is the (neo-psi ?) ability to
generate fear and loathing to all they confront. Indealing with these
monsters remember they are pack hunters, while one or two may be seen in
any confrontation, watch your flanks and rear, there will be several others
nearby. If you put up any resistance let alone are too strong for them some
will try to get you secnt then escape. Packs of them will follow, changing
their apparent econiche to keep you off guard. Their ability to gain and
keep memory of a scent is why the Imperium has tried like its predecessors
to domesticate them.

Their character is like their econiche intermittent. They have been
observed carrying out the most inconsistant and crulest of practices. These
range from hounding individuals to suiside to denighing the existance of
prey when secondary school childern have been alleged capable of follow an
audit trail to its end. In other occassions they have fed upon their own
kind.

All in all, an unfathomable if vendictive nasty. No fixed location or mode
of behaviour and often exibiting odd powers or using/being used by other
groups. But remember 'It's their job to be fair'.

Richard Fields
New Zealand, a small group of islands southwest of California
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 19:13:49 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: : Re: [BITS] Task System notes

On 03/06/99 at 11:20 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>>I agree.  I honestly like the "roll target number or lower"
>>techniques better than the MT/CT roll higher techniques, but that's
>>personal taste.  In either case, standard levels of difficulty and
>>descriptive names for things make playing the game much better,
>>again IMO.

>Eris, I'd love to agree with you here but wouldn't agreeing with
>*the* heretic make me a heretic too?

Come on over to the dark side. ;-p

>I prefer T4.1's system to MT, but I play T4.1 with HG for starships.

Hee! Hee!

I suspect most of us play Traveller with a mixture of rules.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:42:50 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

David,

Where can I find your article?


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
<snipped>
> 
> In fact this stuff has been around at least since I posted
> my GURPS Traveller article some years ago.  I have no problem
> with people borrowing the idea (and game mechanics aren't
> copyrightable anyway, though an acknowledgement is always nice :-).
> In fact, if want to actually copy the passage from my article, you
> have  my permission (though it isn't clear why one would _want_
> to go that far :-) as long as you mention where it came from.
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:23:43 -500
From: "Jeff Beeler" <jabeeler@sleepy.ebtech.net>
Subject: Re: What's My Mileau?

How about an all Chirper crew from the expansion days before the 
First Imperium?

Anyone done anything along these lines?

Jeffrey Allan Beeler jabeeler@sleepy.ebtech.net

"The truth is out there you just have to know where to look!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:12:36 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

The Imperial Office[or was it Ministry] of Heraldy appears in Arrival
Vengeance
in reference to having approved changes to the crest of the 
Arrival Vengeance.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 23:10:24 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) types:
>In mail you write:
>> If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print again.
>> The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
>> worth it, my oldest kid wanted *my* set).
>> The SciFi Book club also has the first three available in a single
hardcover.
>I was surprised to see that J. Michael Strazinksi recommends them!

I wasn't.  The Lensmen series has that grand scope the used in B5.
Remember how Kosh greeted Sinclair in the pilot?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:10:53 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Nastiest Monster)

Leonard wrote:

>Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
>so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
>When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...
>Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:20:23 -0500
>From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
>Subject: Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

Michael wrote:

>I laid out two maps of the target house in different rooms. Assasin in
>one room, other players in the next room. Then proceeded to move back
>and forth telling each what they "saw". It was an awsome game! The
>tension built like a movie with neither side really knowing what was
>going on!

In the early 1980's, a member of my old games club in London, Ontario used
to run an insane near-future SF game at conventions, using a variant of the
Traveller rules, involving *three* separate groups of PCs simultaneously.
He had a small closed-circuit phone system that connected him to the three
sub-referees, each running a group of six to eight players in three
separate rooms -- each group knew nothing of the other groups' actions.
These games achieved a legendary status in the southern-Ontario RPG scene
for their bloodletting and mayhem.

The scenario was called "Silence in Gehenna", based on the early-70's
Harlan Ellison story, "Silent in Gehenna". Each group of PCs were a cell of
an underground revolutionary organization, making a raid on a university
campus (usually the school where the convention was being held, or one
nearby, using actual school maps), in a future North American police state,
ruled by an iron-fisted military-corporate complex. The universities have
become armed camps, surrounded by razor wire, guard towers, high-tech
detectors grids, and pulse laser weapons. The three PC groups have each
independently chosen the same night to make a raid on the campus (to mark
the anniversary of some massacre of protestors years before); one group is
supposed to kidnap the university comptroller, one is trying to seize the
radio station, and the third is trying to blow up the ROTC building, or
whatever.

You can imagine the chaos.  None of the cells knows what the others are
doing: Group 1 decides to make a dash across the quad; their sub-ref calls
this in to the central ref, who informs the sub-ref of Group 2. Group 2's
ref says, "You see several armed figures running towards your position
across the quad". Group 2 thinks it's the school's Army guard, and open
fire. Group 1's ref tells his group, "You're under fire by someone in the
Computer Science building..."

On top of this, the guy running the whole show was a bloodthirsty loon who
could care less for game mechanics. When NPCs fired on a group of
characters, he would simply roll a number of dice equal to the number of
PCs, using those black  dice with Death's heads for sixes: each Death's
head was a hit; he'd let the sub-refs roll damage as they saw fit. All the
refs made a concerted effort to kill off every PC by the end of the game.

I ran a character who had the unusual distinction of having actually
survived two "Silence in Gehenna" sessions, at two different conventions.
Granted, he was captured by the Army at the end of the second game, and if
I'd played in another he would've been a brainwashed government mole in one
of the cells.

One absurd moment that sticks in my mind, from a game set at Carlton
University in Ottawa: some of our group had taken the security station of a
campus building, and thus were able to follow events on the security video
system; my PC was descending in an elevator with a fellow cell-member (a
martial artist armed with a katana for some reason), when our fellows in
the security room informed us by cellphone that there were two
heavily-armed Army boys waiting in the lobby for us. The guards knew we
were coming down in the elevator, and we knew they were there waiting. So
when the doors opened all hell broke loose. I fired, they fired; I think
everybody got hit. Katana boy was dead before he hit the back wall of the
elevator. My PC was just winged -- but got captured later, trying to escape
across the canal.

Best,

Glenn

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:40:49 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

>>>And read the *book*. The movie took extreme liberties with the plot and
>>
>> Read the books!  Remember there were three books.
>
>There were? The others must have been very much afterthoughts then.

Yep.  There were three, don't remember how much of an after thought the
second two were.  I read them years ago in Highschool.  I'd wanted to read
the first one in grade school when I found it in a bookstore, but my Mom
took one look at the back of the cover and veto'd that, something about a
corrupting influence on youth :^)

Anyway IIRC the second book takes place about 10 years after the first.  I
wonder where on earth my set is, I know I still have them, as I never get
rid of Sci-Fi books.  If you can find copies somewhere such as Powells, I'd
seriosly recommend it, however, I'd expect it to take some serious work.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:42:26 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

> If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print again.
> The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was

Wait a minute, EACH book is $15 ?!?!?  I really hope I'm reading this
wrong, something that short shouldn't be that much!  BTW, the Skylark
series should also be read.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 00:06:25 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Daniel Gallery Fiction

Here are the books I've read so far of his:

Cap'n Fatso
Clear the Decks
Now Here This
Stand by-y-y to Start Engines
"Away Boarders" His account of the U-boat capture.

There are several others that I've read but can't remember off hand. He
also wrote short stuff for "All Hands", the official navy enlisted
magazine, and both serious non-fiction and humour for the Navy
Institutes Proceedings (which I have been a subscriber to since 1977).

I grew up in a Navy town, Virginia Beach, Va so these stories were
repeated and indulged in the Navy folklore I heard while growing up
around Bubbleheads, Squids, Seals, Jarheads, Airdales, Jet-jockies, and
the Swivel {chair} Brigade.

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 00:41:28 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

Has anyone done any campaign work on IRIS beyond what appeared in
Challenge (genuflect) way back in Granfather's time? My last 3I
campaign, both CT and MT, was with IRIS, intelligence, and special ops
characters (and there was suprisingly little violence as per  RW
intelligence actions). In my MT campaign IRIS had a lot more knowledge
of Dulinor's plan than anyone ever {should}  know., My IRIS was a
combination of Mossad, Shin Bet, 'the Shop' (SK), some of the truly
'spooky'  groups that the US has but no one knows the correct acronyms,
and the intrigue and subtlety that were the hallmark of the
middle-Byzantine Empire and Ming China. IRIS was very, very quiet,
beyond subtle and scared the s**t out of internal and external Imperial
threats. SolSEC never moled IRIS nor turned any IRIS agent, but IRIS
managed to penetrate both the inner workings of the Zhod. Consulate and
had fully penetrated the Solomani government and military to a level the
KGB wished it had with the US or in the "Cambridge 5" era of British
intelligence. IRIS is the name others give to that agency as its 'true
name' and mission have never been legally and truthfully revealed. Not
even Strephon had a good idea what they were up to and rumours persisted
that it was IRIS that put Strephon's duplicate there at Capital when
Dulinor came a courtin'. IRIS knew what had happened  in Imperial
quarters more accurately than Lucan and he was there! 'Spook' campaigns
are sooo much fun! Noone knows who's in charge, which side they're on,
and like Deckard in 'Blade Runner' (genuflect), does anyone  even know
who they really are?  I have to admit I was inspired by S*P*Y*S and
'Don't Start the Revolution Without Me" with a liberal helping of Le
Carre, Graham Greene ('Our Man in Regina"), and Patrick MacGohan ('why
did you resign?').

BE SEEING YOU!

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:43:47 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

- ----------
> From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh@aracnet.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Lensmen series
> Date: Saturday, 06 March, 1999 11:42 PM
> 
> > If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print
again.
> > The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
> 
> Wait a minute, EACH book is $15 ?!?!?  I really hope I'm reading this
> wrong, something that short shouldn't be that much!  BTW, the Skylark
> series should also be read.
> 
>There are actually two versions in print.

Old Earth Publishing is doing a high-quality trade paperback series of all
six books, which does cost $15 each.  The Science Fiction Book Club is
producing a collected edition that puts all six books in two volumes, each
volume going for $15.   Take your pick.  I've seen the Old Earth editions
and they are very nice productions.  The SFBC books are clearly cheaper,
but I don't know what the quality is.  However, only the first volume (thew
first three books) is available now.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #255
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, March 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 256



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads! 
Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
T4 Suite
T4.1 Question
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)
Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Nastiest Monster)
Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
Re: Nasty Ref tricks Part Deux[Long]
Canonicity
A Satisfying game
Whuffo contragrav?
Re: What's My Mileau?
Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Re: MT PBeM Game Openings 
Re: MT PBeM Game Openings 
Re: Canonicity
Test Message, Please ignore
Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 23:59:15 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re-writing History, plus Re; Egads! 

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>I know that he's written at *least* one book of fiction about life on
>a carrier ("Now Hear This"). I recommend it as an example of the sort
>of hijinks naval personnel indulge in.
>
>If there are any other books that form a "series" with "Now Hear This"
>*please* let me know.

There were 5 books of fiction, and the "true" story about the sub.
Unfortunately I loned my copies out and did not get them back.

A quick check of http://abebooks.com/

Fiction/comedy
Now Hear This
Cap'n Fatso
8 Bells and Alls Well (8 Bells)
Clear The Decks
Stand By-y-y to Start Engines

History
U-505

Techno-Thriller???
The Brink

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:12:19 +0000
From: "Tim" <tim@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

Thanks for the info Christopher it was timly indeed.  Though i can 
not answear your questions I really need your info.  Me and others 
are also interested in the I.B. and if you or anyone else is please 
send a message to me

> I've become interested in the structure of the Imperial Bureaucracy in
> Traveller, as it has evolved over time from little references here and
> there in published material. Whereas a complete book on the subject -- as
> the title of this posts suggests -- might possibly be the most boring
> sourcebook known to intelligent life everywhere (except Bwaps), a list of
> established offices and ministries and their relationships to one another
> might prove a useful tool for future authors.
> 
> Here's what I've gleaned from my CT/MT/GT materials so far; I'll move on to
> other versions of Traveller next, though I'm not sure how applicable what I
> find will be to GT. I am soliciting your assistance: please send me the
> name of any Imperial bureaucratic organization you find in canon, along
> with a page reference and its place in the hierarchy (if known). I'll post
> occasional updates as new information warrants, and eventually put the
> whole edifice up on the web.
> 
> One interesting point is that the IISS has never been assigned to a
> cabinet-level organization. I've placed it in MoI&C for convenience, but
> I'd be interested to see a canonical answer.
> 
> Imperial Family/Household (various) [not technically part of Imperial
> bureaucracy]
> 	Office of the Emperor (Supp 11, p. 15; Dragon #87, p. 76, by MWM)
> 		Minister of Protocol (Surv Marg, p. 27)
> 		Chencellor
> 	Office of Personal Transportation (Trav Adv, p. 00)
> 	Imperial Reservations (Supp 3, p.2)
> 	Ancients Foundation (with IISS) (Adv 4, p. 41)
> 
> Nobility (various) 
> 	Moot/Peerage (various)
> 		Imperial Regency of Intelligence and Security (various) [may be
> apochryphal]
> 
> Ministry of Colonization (various)
> Ministry of Commerce (various)
> 	Trading Standards Bureau (Adv 4, p. 10)
> 	Imperial Treasury (GT:FT, pp. 5-9)
> 		Office of the Mint (Ch #29, p. 22)
> 		monetary board (GT:FT, p. 7)
> 	Shipping Commission (GT:FT, p. 74)
> 	Starport Authority (JTAS #19, pp. 37-42)
> Ministry of Conservation (Adv 1, p. 4; Supp 3, p. 32 [this instance may be
> an error for 	Ministry of Colonization])
> Ministry of Defense (Supp 11, p. 15)
> 	Admiralty/Naval Office (Supp 9, p. 5; Ch #31, pp. 32-33)
> 		[Imperial Marine Corps?]
> 	[Army Office?]
> Ministry of Information and Communication (Ch #44, p. 35, Surv Marg, p. 33)
> 	Imperial Interstellar Scout Service [?] (various)
> 	Censor Bureau (Surv Marg, p. 29)
> Ministry of Justice (various)
> 	Imperial Prisons (Supp 3, p. 2)
> 	Exile Camps (Supp 3, p. 2)
> Ministry of State (Supp 6, p. 14)
> 	Ambassadors Extraordinary and Ministers Plenipotentiary (Surv Marg, pp.
> 28, 31; GT:FT, p. 73)
> 	Consulates (Trav Adv, p. 97)
> 		Consul 
> 		Visas, Pensions, and Veterans Affairs (Trav Adv, p. 97)
> 		Citizenship, Protection, and Welfare (Trav Adv, p. 97)
> 		Shipping and Merchant Affairs (Trav Adv, p. 97)
> 	Embassies
> 		Ambassador/Legate (GT:FT, pp. 73-74)
> 		Commercial Attache (GT:FT, p. 74)
> 		Military Attache (Book 4, p. 9)
> 		Naval Attache (Book 5, p. 9)
> 	Imperial Diplomatic Corps/Foreign Service (Supp 4, p. 5, 24; GT:FT, pp.
> 73-74, 81)
> 	"Imperial secret service" / "Intelligence Agency" (Supp 6, p. 36; Supp
> 11, p. 15)
> Ministry of Technology  (Ch #43, p. 24)
> 	Research Stations
> 	Imperial University (JTAS #16, p. 16)
> 	Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine (JTAS #22, pp. 18-23)
> 		Imperial Science Union (ibid.) 
> 
> 
> 

Tim Reynolds
tim@premier.net 
www.premier.net/~tim 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable 
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for 
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.]

Terry Pratchett 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:30:43 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:42:50 -0500, Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>

>Where can I find your article?

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/articles/traveller2.html

or

http://www.io.com/GURPSnet/Archive/Conversions/Traveller/TravellerII.txt

I has been somewhat superseded by GT, but it may have things of
interest...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:22:11 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: T4 Suite

Has anyone got a copy or know where I get a copy of the Marc Miller's
Traveller Suite (Character Generator, Navigator, Die Roller etc) ? Any help
is greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:15:21 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: T4.1 Question

Which files do I need to get hold of to be running T4.1? I have all of the
errata files that are at Joe Heck's site (Thanks :)), but are there more
files needed?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:29:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>I've never used either of these, but I think the two nastiest monsters
>>are:
>
> Similarly I haven't used them in Traveller, but something akin to the
> Ravers in Thomas Covenant would give me the creeps. I'm not overly
> enamoured with the series, but could imagine a nasty Psi based monster like
> it.
>
> Another one I remember being bad for players was one I stole from an
> Imagine magazine (sort of TSR UKs local version of Dragon). This had a
> small woodlouse like creature which numbed the skin of a victim, then
> burrowed in and laid eggs. The scene that springs to mind was the pilot
> panicking when searching the engine room when another player pointed a snub
> pistol at his head (to shoot the bug that had landed on it). )When the
> creatures burrowed in, they sent the victim mad with pain).
>
> The other big literary nasty that springs to mind was the keeper in B5.
> (Bylabon in 101 Lifeforms). I suppose that, which is also a
> psionic/possession type nasty may say more about me than how nasty the
> monster is.

You just reminded me of another Schmitz nasty. It's from one of the
Telzey stories. Somebody sics a sort of telepathic "hound" on her.

Basicly, once given the "scent" (sample psi imprint), it'll tune in on
the psi's mind. If the psi isn't shielded, it picks up their sensory
impressions of their location. It then *teleports* to them and kills
them. 

Telzey manged to dodge it the first few times. But she was stuck in an
isolated area. And she neither had a "psi shield" gadget nor (then) the
ability to maintain *tight* shields while she slept. 

She finally escaped by making it think she was in a cave inside a
nearby rock formation. Which *didn't* have a cave... until then. A 100
kilo beatie teleporting into solid rock does tend to disrupt the rock a
bit...

Actually, come to think of it, Schmitz had a *lot* of nifty critters.
Diamondwood groves are an interesting ecology to throw at players. So
are several other critters whose names I can't recall. Try finding "A
Pride of Monsters", it's got a bunch of his shorts in it. Another to
look for (but *very* hard to find) is "A Nice Day for Screaming, and
other Tales of the Hub".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:38:40 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

	There were three Logan's Run books, and yes the second and third were pretty
much afterthoughts.  (At the end of Book 1 Logan had escaped to an off-world
colony, but in the beginning of book 2 ,IIRC, the author had to killl off the
colony to bring Logan back to Earth.)  I don't remember much about books 2-3,
other than they were unmemorable.   They were all issued in at least one
edition in a single volume.  In writing the subsequent books, I think that the
author was angling for a movie sequel.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 07:50:34 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Nastiest Monster)

At 06:10 PM 3/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard wrote:
>
>>Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
>>so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
>>When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...

Many years ago  at a local con, for the final round of a D&D Tournament
the idiot DM decided to pit the final 2 teams against each other.
20th level characters, any 3 first edition magic items that werent 
artifacts or relics. the teams start 1 mile apart on a flat open plain,
The DM said this will be a short game, figuring that one of the teams
would just slaughter the other in short order. This would have been the case
except for the fact that the 2 teams were formed from a mix of folks from 2
semi
local campaigns, and everybody knew each other. what the DM said would take 
15 minutes, took the better part of 3 hours. and ended with the last player
on each
team shaking hands and calling it a tie.
when the DM told the 2 groups what the final round was to be, both group
leaders immediately told
the DM "Forget this ****, call it a tie right now". The DM was more than a
little upset.
this DM had won the AD&D "Masters" Tournament the year before supposedly.
yeah right.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:39:44 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

There are some references in Strephon's memoirs in Survival Margin where he
basically implies that IRIS are a bunch of deluded loons with no power,
authority or relevance.

In terms of general relevance, it really depends on whether you think the Moot
(or at least part thereof) could at some point in the past been able to manage
and sustain sufficient unity, organisation and budget to set up and maintain
IRIS as an effective institution - to the point where it could continue as an
independent entity when the Moot declines to being a mere cowed instrument of
Lucan.

If your view is yes, then there is probably a subgroup within the Moot which
could be run much like the board of conspirators in the X-files, using IRIS as
their delivery mechanism. 

- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 08:05:00 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty Ref tricks Part Deux[Long]

at another local gaming con[Winter Wars] we played a Traveller Tournament
where
there were 2 12 player teams, it was entitled Diplomatic Mission. This was
a mostly
roleplaying game where there ended up being 2 die rolls in the entire game.

the objective was to determine whether the red zone/interdiction on a
planet could
be lifted and trade reestablished. It had been interdicted 200+ years ago
after the 
TL-13 planet blew itself back to about TL-4 or early TL-5 in a nuclear war.

one team consisted of the survey/contact team on planet, the second team
was the diplomatic
/corporate/bureaucratic team at the subsector capitol a jump away. all
messages between the
planets took 15 minutes of real time each way. 

each team had its own guidelines, and each player had their own secret agenda.
The game was judged based on a vote by all the players, judges
recommendations, and the after 
action report each player turned in.

While the scenario seems straight forward, the number of curveballs that
were tossed in by
the GM and some of the players livened things up immensely.

These included:
a Labship being blown out of orbit by a nuke
the Psionics Expert being a Zhodani Spy
The Ambassador on planet being an Assasin in disguise
one of the Megacorps smuggling guns on planet
a Regiment of TL-13 Lift Cavalry as Sleeper troops being found
a rather dirty corporate war between the 2 corps vying for exploitation rights

The game ended up a tie between the 2 characters that were figured
unlikeliest to win

We've wanted to run this again someday[it was run in 1983]
but havent had the time.  we ran a huge version of Prison Planet at GENCON
that year instead.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:50:31 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Canonicity

"I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but FWIW"

This is the problem with "canonicity"; no one can agree on exactly what it
is.

Mileau 0 was published by what was at the time the company that published
Traveller. It is as canon as anything that GDW did. GDW, and Marc if he
chooses can decide if certain portions of canon need be excised later (ex.
Leviathan's jump missles, portions of the DGP materials, etc.) We are, of
course, free to use what we like and not use what we don't like..but arguing
the "canonicity" of published materials is pointless. if it's published, and
not rescinded by the copyright holder, it's "canon"...it just might not be
YOUR canon. (which in effect means there is no real canon at all).

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:09:23 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: A Satisfying game

Well, we had a really satisfying game of GURPS Traveller last night. We
basically ported over our old Mileau 0 game to the GURPS rules with minor
adaptations, and we had a great time. The scenario was mainly diplomatic,
with the characters defending a small world from a ruthless pocket empire.
The characters never got into any combat until the ship combat. They
organized a rag-tag fleet of ore carriers, 50-ton system patrol fighters,
and their own Extended Duration Survey Vessel, to take on one 2,000 ton
destroyer, two 800 ton escorts and 4 1,200 ton Assault Transports. We ran
the combat as straight as we could, no fudging of the rules, and I played as
smart as I could as the enemy ships. We didn't play out the whole battle; I
used the "the success of the PC's determines the overall success of the
battle". The Pc's, in the 300-ton ship, took on the 2,000 ton destroyer
which had a particle accelerator bay, 6 triple laser turrets and 4 triple
missle turrets.
    The characters won. The GURPS Traveller space combat rules seemed to
work ok, although the sensor rules, as mentioned before, are wonky. We made
some on the fly adjustments by utililizing a BL-like system of range bands,
and that seemed to work ok. The players used excellent tactics, hiding
behind the planet's moon and "popping up" to fire; luck also played a part
as the destroyer never detected the PC's ship. The PC's didn't destroy their
opponent, but they basically forced it to jump out (unbeknownst to the
characters, but to the great amusement of the players, it misjumped). The
clincher was the two hits with missles, the first doing 24,000 points of
damage (after DR), the other doing over 30,000 points. On the basis of that,
I declared heavy casualties among the defenders, but that the other
attacking ships followed suit when the destroyer left (they did not
misjump). next time we play, the characters will be involved in an Imperial
fleet action to persuade the pocket empire to cease their expansionitic
plans in the Core Sector.

This scenario would not even have been remotely possible without the Space
Dock program, which allowed me to crank out those ships :)

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:25:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Whuffo contragrav?

Remember the Solomani Sundowner trading ship?  A while back I happened to
glance at the sketch of it in Rats & Cats and I wondered what it would be
like if...

- -----------

In the far-flung reaches of the diverse and ever-astonishing Third
Imperium, sometime in its thousands of years of recorded history,
somewhere amidst its tapestry of eleven thousand worlds, someone will need
a jump-capable freighter with a walker transmission.

The answer is, of course, the Gamera-class Ambulatory Trader.  The size of
a standard subsidized merchant, the Gamera has the indescribable advantage
of being able to walk around.

* Gamera can clomp around nearly any terrain at a leisurely but implacable
pace.  When it comes time to leave, powerful HEPlaR jets boost the ship
into orbit and through interplanetary space.  A jump drive will take it a
parsec in any direction; total refuelling just prior to jump and careful
navigation will allow two consecutive jumps, though the vessel will be
nearly without reaction mass after coming out of the second one.
(Drivers should also keep in mind that the Gameras are heavy -- and if
they've got much cargo in the hold at all, they'll float like a boulder.)

* Heavy hull armor will (hopefully) compensate for the lack of sandcasters
as originally designed; Gameras also come equipped with a powerful laser
emplacement -- which, if full power is not being applied to the rockets or
legs, can run up to ROF 800 (though that requires nearly half of the full
power plant output) -- capable of fatally surprising many an opponent.

* Gamera-class freighters do not have contragrav installed; they must rely
on their HEPlaR thrust and aerodynamics to lift off from planetary
surfaces.  Typically this should not be a problem -- worlds without
atmospheres are likely to be smaller and have low escape velocities that
the rockets can manage on their own.

* Spacious living quarters for the normal full crew of eleven (nine
single-occupancy and one double-occupancy large staterooms) make the
Gameras a friendly home away from home.  Something more than six
displacement tons of space are available for customization by the owner.

- ---------
SPECS (FF&SI, TL-C)

Hull:  400dT, airframe disk (33m diameter); 5cm superdense hull (AV-70),
internal structure braced for up to 4G.  Large fuel scoops integral,
2240m3/hour [1].

Controls:  Dynamic linked; 3 Model/12 computers; std. navigation aids and
flight avionics, 160kph NOE flight; 5 bridge workstations [2], 3 regular
workstations.

Electronics:  1000AU maser; 30,000km radio (3000km backup); 30,000km AEMS;
90,000km PEMS (fixed array).

Drives:  Jump drive, 1 parsec range; 560m3 fuel per jump.  HEPlaR chamber,
8000 tons thrust (full thrust requires 400MW, 100m3 fuel per hour).
1160m3 LHyd tankage (normally 1 jump, 6 hours full thrust).  Walker
suspension and transmission (400MW).

Power:  450MW fusion plant; 67.5m3 fuel carried for one year.  60MW-hours
batteries.  Fuel processing plant capable of handling 200m3/6 hours.

Vehicles:  112m3 hangar, usually holding a standard 4dT air/raft.

Cargo:  100dT (1400m3) hold, with 5 large cargo bay doors.

Amenities:  10 large staterooms; emergency low berth; 4 airlocks; extended
life support and standard grav compensation (not in fuel tankage areas).

Armament:  Oversize grav-focused laser battery, 240MJ discharge energy.
Focal array diameter 3.5m, surface area 9.6m2.  Crew station built-in.  
Effective Range 306,250km (beam pointer short range 300,000km).  
Total:  57.29m3, 72.31 tons, MCr4.91.  Normal ROF 50, 12.12MW input
Range  10     20     40     80 (in 30,000km hexes)
DV     40     20     10      5
Pen   1/13   1/6    1/3    1/2

Crew:  11 (3xEngineering, 1xElectronics, 2xManeuver, 1xGunnery,
2xMaintenance, 2xCommand)
Maint. Pts: 105  Unused volume:  88.6m3  New Cost: MCr105.3285 (n/i
vehicle)

Mass:  6317.2 tons loaded, 4917.2 tons w/o cargo

Performance:  HEPlaR 1.27/1.63Gs acceleration.  Walker speed 25.5/32.3kph.

[1] As I don't have FF&SII available with its more complete rules for
streamlining and airframing, I went with just basic streamlining per the
original FF&S.  This may mean that in gearhead play the vessel must travel
more slowly when fuel skimming, thus taking longer to get a full load;
hence the extra-large intake scoops on the ship.

[2] Since the HEPlaR and legs can't be used simultaneously, I've assumed
that a single driver/helmsman position can cover both.  

ECONOMICS:
Using the unofficial rule suggested on the TML that crew life support
costs be set at Cr400/2 weeks/member, and that the cost of unrefined fuel
be reduced to Cr5/ton, and my own  fix that berthing costs be equal to the
displacement tonnage of the ship per day, and furthermore assuming a full
cargo hold for each of 25 jumps per year, Gamera-class traders need to
earn over Cr4800 per cargo displacement ton per jump.  Once the ship is
paid off -- however the hell that might happen -- it's considerably more
economical (maybe around Cr400-500/dT/jump, depending on what extra costs
older ships incur to run).  

A fiscally responsible explanation of why Gamera-class traders are built
is left as an exercise for the reader.

- --------------

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 09:24:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What's My Mileau?

At 09:23 PM 3/6/99 -500, you wrote:
>How about an all Chirper crew from the expansion days before the 
>First Imperium?

Chirper of Droyne?

Chirpers (non-casted Droyne) aren't overly intelligent, and don't seem to
be overly interested in building technological cultures.

The Droyne on the other hand...
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 10:43:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

Christopher Thrash wrote:
> 
> I've become interested in the structure of the Imperial Bureaucracy in
> Traveller, as it has evolved over time from little references here and
> there in published material. Whereas a complete book on the subject -- as
> the title of this posts suggests -- might possibly be the most boring
> sourcebook known to intelligent life everywhere (except Bwaps), a list of
> established offices and ministries and their relationships to one another
> might prove a useful tool for future authors.

Excellent compilation! One point to remember, though. ALL references in MT
sources, are going to be for the bureacracy with the entirety of known space
on a war footing, such as the Censor Bureau. I doubt that that is in operation
during non-wartime, and would thus not be present in GT...

For a RL example, look at the US government buraucracy during WWII vs the
1950's vs today...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:07:06 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: MT PBeM Game Openings 

Scott - I'd be interested ... nb I do occasionally go offline for a day or so 
when I travel on business.
btw your web site seems to be down. 
M

> Hi,
> 	I am looking at starting a Traveller PBeM game.  Here are the details:
> 
> 	This game will be (relatively) short duration, and will need 8 players
> for a relatively fast (as close to one a day as possible) turn
> frequency.
> 	This game will also be e-mail only, with my usual story telling
> approach to the turns.
> 	This game will be hosted through a list server (most likely OneList),
> and lurking is encouraged.
> 	Contribution will only be accepted from the players involved.
> 	This game is going to be based on a small published adventure and 8
> characters would be the maximum allowable (for manageability).
> 	Rules utilized will be 'home brew' combinations of all traveller
> vintages (classic through Gurps Traveller)
> 	More weight will be emphasized on the MT timeline as well as the G:T
> rules.
> 	This game will also be mainly ground-pounder based, all character types
> are encouraged, but to know that the game is planetary based (so far)
> gives a good starting point.
> 	There will be a supporting web site.
> 
> 	Preferred rules system: Gurps Traveller with MT time line (circa 1117)
> 
> 
> 	If you are interested in participating, please contact me at:
> scspieker@ncweb.com
> 
> Thank you for your interest and time,
> Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:07:48 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: MT PBeM Game Openings 

whoops, previous note meant to be offlist, blush, please ignore.
M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 14:50:56 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

On 03/07/99 at 10:50 AM,  "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net> said:

>"I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but
>FWIW"

>This is the problem with "canonicity"; no one can agree on exactly
>what it is.

Well, welcome to the dark side, Allen, because the logical extention
is that if no one can agree on exactly what it is, then we are
heretics, one and all.  ;->

>Mileau 0 was published by what was at the time the company that
>published Traveller. It is as canon as anything that GDW did. GDW,
>and Marc if he chooses can decide if certain portions of canon need
>be excised later (ex. Leviathan's jump missles, portions of the DGP
>materials, etc.) We are, of course, free to use what we like and not
>use what we don't like..but arguing the "canonicity" of published
>materials is pointless. If it's published, and not rescinded by the
>copyright holder, it's "canon"...it just might not be YOUR canon.
>(which in effect means there is no real canon at all).

There are folks on this list that wouldn't even agree with the
"rescinded by copyright holder" proviso. ;-> 

Rather than argue about details, I've always said, once you get past
the general things that make Traveller, Traveller it's all really
just IYTU anyway.  Of course, just what those general things are is
open for debate, but let's not debate them again right now, OK?  ;->

Now about M0, many of us on the list had long discussions about what
we like and dislike about M0 (as published) and about how we might
have done it differently.  Personally, I don't have a bit of trouble
with someone setting their campaign in M0, as published, but then I
don't have a problem if someone says, "Nah, I think I'll change
things and do it a different way."

But, heretic or not, I've never had a problem with games that stick
to the published materials.  ;-> It *is* fun to discuss a common
background and play there sometimes, I do it too.  My problem has
always been when people devalue a game (sometimes to the point of
saying "you aren't playing Traveller") when a game doesn't stick
religiously to that common background.

Eris,
    the Heretic
    won't you be a heretic too? ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:48:44 -0000
From: "James Watson" <jswatson@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Test Message, Please ignore

Test Test TestTest Test TestTest Test TestTest Test TestTest Test TestTest
Test TestTest Test TestTest Test Test

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 15:29:36 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Logan's Run (was re: Racial Cooperation...)

At 07:38 AM 3/7/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>	There were three Logan's Run books, and yes the second and third were pretty
>much afterthoughts.  (At the end of Book 1 Logan had escaped to an off-world
>colony, but in the beginning of book 2 ,IIRC, the author had to killl off the
>colony to bring Logan back to Earth.)  I don't remember much about books 2-3,
>other than they were unmemorable.   They were all issued in at least one
>edition in a single volume.  In writing the subsequent books, I think that the
>author was angling for a movie sequel.
>
>				Dave Nelson
IIRC, the first book was a collaboration between William F. Nolan and
Clayton Johnson(?).  The next two beeks were written only by Nolan.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #256
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 257



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
Fw: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Nastiest Monster
Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Curved or Flat Windows?
Striker Design Program/ Spreadsheet
The Jupiter Run
Re: Fw: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies
[OT]  Nothing to do With What the List is About.
Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
[Debate] Ridgway 2
UWP
Total Recall 2070
Re: Total Recall 2070
Re: Titan Games Preview for (3/7/99)
Re: Whuffo contragrav?
Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
Re: Canonicity
Trenco and Zabriska
Re: Canonicity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 15:09:58 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy

At 04:28 PM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 10:43:46 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: GT: Imperial Burearcracy
>
>One point to remember, though. ALL references in MT
>sources, are going to be for the bureacracy with the entirety of known space
>on a war footing, such as the Censor Bureau. I doubt that that is in operation
>during non-wartime, and would thus not be present in GT...
>
>For a RL example, look at the US government buraucracy during WWII vs the
>1950's vs today...

Roger, I am taking that into account in my own notes. I just thought it
cluttered the list unnecessarily to post every disclaimer.

On the other hand, it is often surprising how many bureaucratic
institutions that were created "for the duration" continue long after their
usefulness has ended; there may also be vestigial agencies that exist in a
dormant state in preparation for war or other emergency. The U.S. Selective
Service is a classic case in point.

Organizations (especially bureaucracies) are like organisms. They exist for
two purposes:

(1) Perpetuate their own existance.

(2) Extend their sphere of influence and access to resources, in order to
support #1.

Any "mission statement" or "intended purpose" is strictly tertiary.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:25:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Fw: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies

>> Stanley Kubrick, director of 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY ( a seminal influence on
>> Space:1999), died today at the age of 70.
>Thats a surprise.  I presume this means his Eyes Wide Shut project, which
>he's been working on for years, won't ever be released.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:42:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>>Eris, I'd love to agree with you here but wouldn't agreeing with
>>*the* heretic make me a heretic too?
>
>Come on over to the dark side. ;-p

No, never. I will never turn to the dark side ;-)

>>I prefer T4.1's system to MT, but I play T4.1 with HG for starships.
>
>Hee! Hee!

Well, I'd argue that T4 is but refined CT, and HG has yet to be surpassed
in Traveller.

>I suspect most of us play Traveller with a mixture of rules.

Rules?

Mine are all metric.

GT really bugs me. It claims to be 'Imperial' but it's actually 'American'
and then it mixes in SI units.... <sigh> It's silly, but most of the old
Imperial units have little reference for me, except maybe height.

I suspect that you're right. And Traveller never needed the disclaimer that
AD&D did (in second ed) that the GM should feel happy to change rules to
suit themselves.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 01:00:48 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Nastiest Monster

> 
> Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
> so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
> When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...
> 

A few years ago me and two of my friends arranged a three-GM and up to 15
player GURPS-Illuminati game at a local con. As an extra bit of confusion,
the game was placed at the same con, with fictional characters among real
ones. The game was layed in a single room with 3 different tables, one for
each GM and his/her players. Each of these sub-games had a different mood
and rules to it, one being quite realistic, one cinematic and one horror,
and the characters could change from one "parallel dimension" ,as
represented by a different GM and table, to another. As a consequence there
were 4 character sheets for each character, as their abilities changed from
table to table. (The fourth character sheet was for the player,
representing the _characters_ image of itself. There were at least three
megalomaniac characters, whose player-held character sheets had _a lot_ of
20+ stats and skills.) We played the game at three different days of the
con with three different groups of players, cycling though some 40-50
players and characters. It was a lot of work, and quite confusing at times,
but at least we were able to reality-check some problems easily. Still it
was so much fun, that if it weren't for the workload involved, I'd do it
again every year. And it hasn't been the last multi-GM game I've been
involved in.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 99 17:14:46 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

On 03/07/99 at 08:42 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Rules?

>Mine are all metric.

Not even any points or picas? ;->

>GT really bugs me. It claims to be 'Imperial' but it's actually
>'American' and then it mixes in SI units.... <sigh> 

Gee, Dom, but that's what *we* call it over here; feet, pounds,
quarts are what we call the Imperial system.  Ok, they don't match
with what the British ended up with in every case, but that was
their origin and so in *your* honor that's what we call them.  ;-p

Oh, and fortnight is a perfectly normal word over here too.  Not
used a lot, but still perfectly valid.  If many Americans don't know
what a fortnight, a furlong, or a fathom is then that says something
about our educational systems...not our language. ;->

>It's silly, but most of the old Imperial units have little
>reference for me, except maybe height.

Then more's the pity!  IMO, of course.  Sure, SI units are nice for
arithmetic, but the amounts they represent are often less
"humancentric", again IMO.

>I suspect that you're right. And Traveller never needed the
>disclaimer that AD&D did (in second ed) that the GM should feel happy
>to change rules to suit themselves.

Could be.  I cut my teeth on D&D and Traveller, first editions, so I
expect the GM to have to create the rules...not just change them.

Eris,
    Ok, come on over to the Light side, if the Dark side doesn't
    appeal to you...it's all relative anyway. ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:34:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Curved or Flat Windows?

- -----Original Message-----
From: NIXSPAMMbrclif@digital.net <NIXSPAMMbrclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Curved or Flat Windows?


>I recently reacquired 101 Vehicles by DGP and noticed how many futuristic
>paramilitary vehicles have curved canopy windows.
>
>Wasn't there a reason that the Army's helicopters went to a flat window
>design?
>
>I mean, with curved windows, you will more often have a reflection from the
>sun that will be seen by an observer, while with flat windows, you will
have
>reflection much less often, and only briefly, though it will be bright when
>you do see it.
>
>Same principle of the F-117's stealth?  Flat surfaces bounce radar signals
>in other directions.  If the signal ever does bounce in your direction, it
>will only be brief?
>
>This was the opposite of the curved surface design of the F-19, a fictional
>bit of propaganda leaked to toy companies.
>
>--Clif
>Delete the letters "NIXSPAMM" before sending your reply.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:55:54 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Striker Design Program/ Spreadsheet

        Does anyone have a program or spreadsheet for designing vehicles and
systems under the "Striker" rules set?  I am going to start playing around
with it, and don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.

        Thanks!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:07:16 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: The Jupiter Run

A.D. 20??

Darek powered up his spinner.  Click, click, click, the toggle switches
replied back to him as the organic lights above them came to life.  He
checked power, life support, avionics, guidance, computer, and engines.
He checked the structure, and ignited the engines.  With a white hot
blast his tiny craft accelerated at 0.1 G toward the start volume.

Several craft were already there, powered up, tethered to the launch
buoy.  Within the hour, all contestants were tethered and ready to go.
With a lurch the tethers were cut, sending the spinners catapulting off
towards the Jovian atmosphere, one light-minute away.  Tumbling
about some random axes, the spinners waited for the countdown to
end.  After exactly 15 seconds, thrity-eight engines lit up, propelling the
miniscule squadron forward at 4 G's.  Some ships veered to one side,
no doubt planning to borrow momentum from Ganymede.  Others didn't
bother with such a silly attempt, heading instead directly toward Jupiter's
atmosphere.  In the distance, Darek saw one well-armored ship bounce
off of another; ramming is a dangerous trick that has cost lives before.

Darek aimed his ship for the outer atmosphere.  He had a specially-
made scramjet that he was depending on, and needed a hydrogen
atmosphere to use it in.  As he sunk into the outer layers, he ignited
the scramjet and hauled along the stratosphere of Jupiter, hoping no
unforseen problems awaited him.  Acid pockets were known to
destroy unwitting spinners before.

Awhile later, eighteen ships emerged from the 'dark' side of Jupiter,
careening back out of the gravity well at well over escape velocity.
A few more system failures reduced this number to twelve.  Finally
the surviving ships crossed the threshold of the start volume, one at
a time, spread out over hours.

Neither Derek nor his ship were ever found.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:33:23 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies

>>> Stanley Kubrick, director of 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY ( a seminal influence
>on
>>> Space:1999), died today at the age of 70.
>>Thats a surprise.  I presume this means his Eyes Wide Shut project, which
>>he's been working on for years, won't ever be released.

One of the Obits I was just reading before dinner said it will be out in
July.  Yahoo has a lot of links on this right now.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:18:14 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: [OT]  Nothing to do With What the List is About.

>i just wanted to get everyone on the list aware of the fact that the man
>who is arguably the greatest filmaker of the modern age died today. my
>friend here best put the sentiments of me and my brethren.
>
>"Today is a sad sad sad day.  Why can't Michael Bay die and not Stanley
>Kubrick?  The world could do without Armageddon and Bad Boys, but what
would
>we do without A Clockwork Orange and Full Metal Jacket?   R.I.P Stanley
>Kubrick."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:23:56 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

>There are some references in Strephon's memoirs in Survival Margin where he
>basically implies that IRIS are a bunch of deluded loons with no power,
>authority or relevance.

My take was that IRIS was another faction in the rebellion, but that
instead of trying to steal the iridium throne through military conquest
they used subterfuge. The other factions were going along with them only to
legitimize their own claim to power.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 22:24:58 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [Debate] Ridgway 2

Imperial Military Reorganizations

"Ridgway"

In my first contribution to this debate, I discussed some of the
possible military repercussions of Gallatin's proposed reforms.  I wish
to expand upon this topic, by pointing out some of the changes that
would, in my opinion, have to be made in Imperial military policies and
structures, if Gallatin's plan is adopted.

1.  Imperial Member Worlds would need to be largely disarmed.

Traditionally, the responsibility for defensive ground combat has fallen
chiefly on the various Member Worlds of the Imperium.  This fact is a
logical corollary of the Imperial policy of ruling space, rather than
worlds.  If the Imperium changes this policy, then the corollary no
longer applies.  Imperial ground forces would need to supplant planetary
ground forces, for several reasons.  First, an Imperial government bent
on ensuring that the governments of Imperial Member Worlds are "more
responsive to the needs and desires" of their populations cannot allow
those governments to have the means to resist Imperial might.  Naval
forces cannot, by themselves, compel obedience.  They can strangle trade
between worlds, they can bring vast destruction to the surface of
planets, but they cannot force a world's rulers to abdicate or submit. 
Only ground forces can exercise control over the surface of a world. 
Therefore, all ground forces must submit to _direct_ Imperial authority,
or be either disbanded or destroyed.  Second, since the Imperium could
not allow the existence of ground combat forces that did not answer
directly to Imperial authority, the Imperium would need to fill the
vacuum in ground forces with Imperial units.  Finally, the lower-tech
Member Worlds would find themselves defenseless, unless strong Imperial
ground forces provided a garrison.    The reason for this is simple.  In
order to defend themselves agains high-tech forces, such as [insert your
favorite extra-Imperial foe], lower-tech worlds rely on vast numbers of
defenders.  Because large standing forces enable an "unresponsive" world
government to impose its will upon the peoples of said world, the
Imperial government cannot permit them to exist.  Since smaller low-tech
forces cannot provide an adequate defense, the high-tech Imperial forces
would have to substitute.

Similarly, local naval forces cannot be allowed to become powerful
enough to challenge Imperial might.  The disarmament of local naval
forces again would require the introduction of Imperial forces as
replacements.

2.  Imperial ground forces would need to be expanded greatly.

The required expansion of Imperial ground forces springs inevitably from
the logic of Point One above.  Potentially "non-responsive" Member
Worlds cannot be allowed to have sufficeint force to allow them to
resist Imperial intervention.  Since disarming such worlds would make
them more vulnerable to hostile attack, these worlds will require
Imperial garrisons sufficient to replace the disbanded local forces. 
While the disbanded local forces can be used as a manpower pool, subject
to their ability to learn to use Imperial-level-tech equipment, the new
Imperial units would need appropriate-tech equipment themselves.

Additionally, the increased OPTEMPO of Imperial ground forces, needed to
"restructure - by force if necessary" the governments of Imperial Member
Worlds would require a further increase in Imperial ground force
strength, simply to maintain an equal availability of forces to respond
to extra-Imperial incursions.

3.  Imperial forces would need to be reorganized.

Imperial soldiers, Marines, and spacebeings are as susceptible to
emotional turmoil as the general populations from which they are drawn. 
Few sophonts will face with equanimity the prospect of firing on others
of their homeworlds.  To prevent this source of disruption, Imperial
forces will need to be stationed far from home.  Even if the definition
of "far from home" is merely "a different subsector from one's home
world", this leads to logistical problems, as recruits must be
transported quite some distance from their worlds of origin.  Stationing
sophonts far from home also negatively impacts morale, particularly
among the various human cultures.  Reducing this impact would prove to
be a logistical nightmare, as either Imperial military personnel would
need to be allowed periodic leave on their home worlds (involving
several jumps each way), or world-specific cultural items would need to
be sent from the various worlds to wherever those worlds' natives served
(imagine the cost sending genuine Terran "White Castle burgers" all the
way to Reaver's Deep, or, worse, to the Spinward Marches).

In short, gentlebeings, enforcing the reforms that Gallatin proposes
would require that we rebuild the Imperium's military from the ground
up, in guiding philosophy as well as in actual forces.

Are Gallatin's reforms worth the cost?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:33:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: UWP

Is the UWP in MT different than in T4?

I'm trying to use the T4 UWP with World Builder Deluxe and I seem to be
missing some elements and there are other inconsistencies.

I would really love it if someone could post the rolling conventions and the
interpretations (for each possible roll) of the MT UWP.  It would help me
greatly.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 23:01:28 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Total Recall 2070

I hope you caught the new series "Total Recall 2070" on Showtime
tonight.  It was in-fucking-credible.

That hour and a half on TV was the better than the last Sci-Fi movies
I've seen over the last several years.

If you didn't catch it, make time to check it out.  It's damn cool.

They take the Total Recall story and merge it with the Blade Runner
universe.

Great writing.  Neat action.  Cool stuff.

VERY Traveller.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 01:14:53 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Total Recall 2070

Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions wrote:

> They take the Total Recall story and merge it with the Blade Runner
> universe.

If they weren't both Philip K.Dick's works, I'd call that a Hollywood
Frankenstein, but there is potential for something interesting in this
case.

> VERY Traveller.

There was jump drive?  Aslan?  An Imperium?  Ancients?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 23:20:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (3/7/99)

        http://www.titangames.com/
...
>        Traveller Chronicle:
>            4[$12.5, VF],
...
>    Digest Group Publications:
>        (MegaTraveller)
>            101 Vehicles (871) [$25, VF]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:24:34 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Whuffo contragrav?

<snip>

I like it.  Probably have had a Virus use/design em somewhere.  Maybe the
society I'm setting up on Larspri/Dethenes/Old Expanses.  Ah, it's good to see
vanilla FF&S on the TML again.   ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:24:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

> Has anyone done any campaign work on IRIS beyond what appeared in
> Challenge (genuflect) way back in Granfather's time? My last 3I

I thought that was presented as a "what if" type thing and not anything that
was supposed to be taken as "official."  It's clear that in the official
timeline, they were bogus, as Strephon claims to have never heard of them in
Survival Margin and pondered that Lucan just didn't want to admit his
ignorance and/or undercut his claim to the Iridium Throne by playing along
with them at all.

While the cloak and dagger type campaign (or rather occassional
adventure/mission to my preference) is fun, spy work is really rather
unglamorous with most intelligence being done at terminals, gathering data,
analysists, etc.  Not much James Bond stuff, but what the hey.  All of that
aside, anything with any amount of people involved shows that conspiracies,
especially by a governmental agency, always has incompetants, boobs, dorks and
morons who spill the beans on some unsavory operation or incident that brings
that 'burueau' to a close. 

In a govt like that of the late 3I, one ruled by men and not by laws, let
someone powerful (sector duke up, definately) get wind of IRIS and become
opposed somehow  and they'd go the way of the dodo.  At the very least,
they'll get caught in subtle gears of manipulation, if not falling to direct
interference.  Read up on the Bavarian Illuminati, Knights Templar, and the
government/intelligence agency of your choice.   The Nazi's Odessa might go in
here, too.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:24:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

heh heh.  Looks like the periodic "Canon" flame fest is bout to rear up.  ;-)

> "I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but FWIW"
> 
> This is the problem with "canonicity"; no one can agree on exactly what it
> is.

In general, I consider anything done by GDW to be "canon."  Now Traveller and
the 3I evolved, of course, and the general consensus on the Imperium in G:T
(c1999, Real Life) is far far different than that when the first few LBBs were
all that there were (c1977-80).  

DGP was the most successful 3rd party producer for Traveller, it seems, and
their stuff was well done, even if it wasn't always exactly consistent w/ GDW
and/or MMs Traveller Universe.  IG, and T4/M:0, I lump in w/ the other 3rd
party stuff like Judges Guild, Paranoia Press, and FASA (etc).  It looks like
Traveller and is interesting for data mining, but is very poor at sometimes
even internal consistency, much less with anything by GDW and/or the official
universe/timeline.  I guess I lump G:T in here, too.

M:0 is very suspect to me.  I bought it w/ the intention (like G:T) of finding
some use for it with my TNE campaigns.  Neither seems to be working well (M:0
for various reasons, G:T because my budding Regency campaigns always get put
on the backburner).  I am going to probably be waiting to see if the "G:T
mysteries" are going to be explored at all.  My intention is to review Far
Trader and First In and w/o seeing them am probably at bout 40/60 against on
getting them, w/o the results of a first impression from holding one in my
hand.  ;-)

> Mileau 0 was published by what was at the time the company that published
> Traveller. It is as canon as anything that GDW did. GDW, and Marc if he
> chooses can decide if certain portions of canon need be excised later (ex.
> Leviathan's jump missles, portions of the DGP materials, etc.) We are, of

I doubt that will ever happen.  Unless he sets up some sort of publishing
thing for himself and/or reserves such a clause for himself.  Even if MM's not
busy w/o other ventures of "Far Futures Enterprises" or his personal endeavors
(assuming these are seperate), micromanaging like that can doubtfully lead to
anything good, as it's likely going to piss someone off regardless, so it's
probably more prudent to ignore it.  Many issues, like jump torps as one
example, can be explained by many factors.  3 out of 4 versions of Traveller,
J-torps are permissible or explicitly allowed (and i'll bet there's an MT one
lurking somewhere).  The reasons they're not used can be handwaved by many
possiblities.  Hmm...  are J-torps doable w/ G:Vehicles?  4 of 5?  ;-)  I
would tend to doubt they are w/ the G:T system, but I can't say, as I've done
more than glance at it.

> course, free to use what we like and not use what we don't like..but arguing
> the "canonicity" of published materials is pointless. if it's published, and
> not rescinded by the copyright holder, it's "canon"...it just might not be
> YOUR canon. (which in effect means there is no real canon at all).

Of course, the consistency of Previously Published Material (AKA "canon") is
relative to the beholder, and the debate over "canon" is almost always in grey
areas. There are stark instances, though, that are obviously against the grain
of PPM, though.  These usually occur when there's ignorance (or an extreme
dislike and deliberate ignoring) of PPM.  Both are ok if unknowing (especially
if it's over some minutia), but are rather distasteful (if not disgusting) if
deliberate and/or obvious.  The value of canon is a universe/background that's
consistent with previously published material.  To me, this is the "historical
facts" and events of "Imperial Space" and nothing to do with rules specific
minutia.  The evolving and dynamic background/setting of Traveller through
it's editions (including M:0, but *not* G:T IMO only, as if it needs to be
said) is a plus, to me.  If GDW went belly-up in 87 instead of 95, Traveller
would be much less known IMO, even if only to attrition (though a loss of wide
appeal IMO).  The copyright holder/current publisher doesn't mean squat to me.
If I can make it useful, I'm better disposed to buy it.  

Some people seem to see it as someone elses vision/capaign/universe being
forced on them.  None of the publishers, to my knowledge anyways, sent their
thugs out to make sure the "proper" version was being played.  It's just not
possible to please all the people, all the time.  We have many here (or at
least did) who don't even like the Fifth Frontier War, for good Ghul's sake!
All they want is the 3I of 1105 to be further fleshed out, from all the
corners with library data and UWP for the whole nine yards, which just ain't
gonna happen (Officially, anyways).  Others like a small timeframe with
variation and expansion possible.  Alot of MT'ers and G:T'ers probably go in
here.  1105-1120 w/ or w/o the Rebellion.  Those who just don't like the
Imperium setting (like me), but who stay in the OTU/timeline and go up to
where MT was heading (even w/o the apparent exact methods) w/ alot of smaller
powers and polities interacting in former Imperial Space.  Besides, the PPM
(aka "canon") can still be usable (though it doesn't have to be).  Course, I
can easily imagine the use of every TNE product as supportive for a Imperial
campaign, too... 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:10:16 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Trenco and Zabriska

Doh!  That'll teach me to read me books properly!  G:Lensman doesn't use
UPPs at all - it uses GURPS' normal text description.  But, for those who
don't have it, GT contains a page showing how to convert GURPS planet 'text'
to Traveller UPPs (page 123)...  So I set out to do a quick and dirty
conversion job using CT-LBB6 (Scouts), GT and G:Lensman.

Anyway, the nearest I could get for Trenco is X-5A000A-0, with a Navy
(Lensman Patrol) base.  Atmosphere is actually described as 'nitrogenous
hydride', being gaseous during the day and falling as 'exactly fortyseven
feet and five inches' of liquid precipitate overnight, only to evapourate
within minutes of dawn.  There are other effects but I won't list 'em unless
someone asks...

Zabriska (aka A-Zabriskae II) approximates to X-300000-0 with nothing to
recommend it other than a complete lack of... well, everything really.

Unfortunately (and bearing in mind someone else's post - sorry, I cannot
remember whose it was!), a lot of what seperates these from any other
planets with the same UPP is in the text descriptions of these planets -
which means I might run afoul of Copyright if I put it all on the net...  On
the other hand, if anyone wants to email me
(jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk) then I might be able to 'paraphrase'
enough of the G:L text for their purposes...

Hope someone finds the above useful  ITTU.

Keep the Flame.
Jeff R.
"It's not for my daughter, you understand, it's for me.  I have to attach it
to a statement saying you went into the Vortex of your own free will."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 08:12:21 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> heh heh.  Looks like the periodic "Canon" flame fest is bout to rear up.  ;-)
>
> > "I realize that the canonicity of Milieu 0 is suspect to some, but FWIW"
> >
> > This is the problem with "canonicity"; no one can agree on exactly what it
> > is.
>
> In general, I consider anything done by GDW to be "canon."  Now Traveller and
> the 3I evolved, of course, and the general consensus on the Imperium in G:T
> (c1999, Real Life) is far far different than that when the first few LBBs were
> all that there were (c1977-80).
>
> DGP was the most successful 3rd party producer for Traveller, it seems, and
> their stuff was well done, even if it wasn't always exactly consistent w/ GDW
> and/or MMs Traveller Universe.  IG, and T4/M:0, I lump in w/ the other 3rd
> party stuff like Judges Guild, Paranoia Press, and FASA (etc).

IG the company had problems.  But some of the products were first rate.
And long overdue additions to the Traveller universes.  If it weren't for
T4, I probably would never have gotten back into Traveller at all.


> M:0 is very suspect to me.  I bought it w/ the intention (like G:T) of finding
> some use for it with my TNE campaigns.  Neither seems to be working well (M:0
> for various reasons, G:T because my budding Regency campaigns always get put
> on the backburner).  I am going to probably be waiting to see if the "G:T
> mysteries" are going to be explored at all.  My intention is to review Far
> Trader and First In and w/o seeing them am probably at bout 40/60 against on
> getting them, w/o the results of a first impression from holding one in my
> hand.  ;-)

Aw, don't say that.  I've got a copy of Far Trader in my hands right now.
And its absolutely beautiful.  Especially that part with my name on the cover.
:-)  Sorry, but I can't be objective about the contents.  The art however,
I had nothing to do with and its excellent!  Far Trader is IMHO adaptable
to any Traveller settings.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #257
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 258



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Whuffo contragrav?
Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: Striker Design Program/ Spreadsheet
Re: UWP (long)
Re: Sand Caster Question
Re: Canonicity
Re: 
Re: Curved or Flat Windows?
Re: 
Re: Total Recall 2070
Hit Location
Re: UWP (long)
re: T4 Suite
Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:29:15 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Task System notes

> Eris,
>     Ok, come on over to the Light side, if the Dark side doesn't
>     appeal to you...it's all relative anyway. ;->

ROFLMAO .....

It was lucky I had just put my coffee down.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:00:41 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

At 12:07 01/03/1999 -0600, "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:
>>It depends. If you have the energy spare, lots of factor 1 weapons
>>and your opponent's ships have armour, then your point defense
>>gunners might as well do something.
>>In practice, most optimised point defence weapons are designed to
>>shoot missiles at short range, so they are powered by trickle charge
>>batteries (to reduce demands on power plants) with short range focussing
>>and beam pointers (to reduce cost and size) so instead of missing with
>>100 shots per turn at long range, they wait and fire 8000 shots/turn for
>>a fraction of a turn and kill it just in time.
>>(T4 stats. Assumes a ten "barrel" mount, optically focussed, 60Mj X-ray
>>point defence laser in a standard turret. 1.873MCr, 3std, 63.25tons,
>>39.23MW, area 0.71m2, rof 100/800, includes workstation and MFD.
>>USP (+6) 1/6-4-3-2[10,100/19-10-5-2](SR)
>>CUSP (+1,+6) 12:12 PDR+7)
>
>
>First of all, thanks for the great info.  Secondly, I should have
>distinguished between PD weapons and "Standard" Las turrets.  Is it perhaps
>a good idea to build a number of small Laser armed ships to serve as Missile
>defense in combat? ( Allowing for Fleet defense, as opposed to self defense
>in the case of PD weapons.)  And are PD weapons that much better at swatting
>down missiles than say a long range Laser mount with ROF 400?  (Why use a
>Hardpoint for a strictly short range weapon when you could have a weapon
>that has long range and is at least moderately effective close in?)  Keep in
>mind I don't have any of the BL material to reference :)

There are three opinions:

#1
one point defence turret is so effective against missiles (and cheap,
low power, low tech, etc) that you fit one and then the rest of your
lasers are free to shoot at the enemy ship without worry.

#2
one point defence turret is so effective against missiles (and cheap,
low power, low tech, etc) that no one in their right minds would ever
fit missiles to a ship, all the missile companies have gone bankrupt
and you don't need a point defence turret.

#3
as long as everyone else believes in #2, your missiles will either get
through or tie up the enemy main batteries.

:-)

Also note that under FFS2, the number of hardpoints restriction seems to
have gone, to be replaced by area restrictions. Even under High Guard,
A PD weapon could be one turret versus an anti-ship array which could
be ten triple turrets. In High guard, you cannot have both but in T4
you can, so a couple of PD turrets will probably fit into the rounding
errors on a T4 design.

Dedicated ships work in theory but don't be sidetracked by modern
naval fleets. If the Earth was flat and guns and missiles had the
same range, then my gun ships could shoot your anti-missile ships
leaving you defenceless against my missile ships.

However, using something small (like fighters) against missiles does
seem to make sense because it gives the defender two layers of missile
defence.

>>> 2.  When turrets are grouped into batteries, why is the damage rating
>>> lower than would be expected if the damage values were simply
>>> cumulative?  (Is the use of MFD's for individual turrets a way to
>>> retain higher overall damage values?)
>>
>>Its a log scale (approximately)
>
>
>Right.  I was just wondering why it's imposed.  When you figure the
>individual stats for the weapon, range degradation has already been
>calculated.  So if we have a 4-4-4-3 Laser Turret, why do we get something
>like 12-4-4-3 when they are grouped in a battery.  (I think those #'s are
>close.  I used Andrew Akin's SS to create a 42m^3 Laser Turret.  I can get
>the specifics if necessary)
>
>Is it just more range attenuation?

IMHO the combining weapons into batteries rules are broken.

With a 10 weapon battery, you have three choices:

	(a) all fire at the same time and same spot.
 	(b) fire at different times at the same spot.
	(c) fire at the same time but at small distance offsets.

clearly:

	(a) increases penetration (and damage a bit) equal to one larger laser
	(b) increases damage (since it won't be exactly the same target cm2)
	(c) increases the chance to hit

My guess would be that 10x75Mj leaser firing in mode (a) would be
equivalent to 1x750Mj laser. But, apparently no:

	 1x75Mj    USP: 1    (USP:  2 if rof 100+)
	 1x750Mj   USP: 2    (USP:  4 if rof 200+)
	10x75Mj    USP: 6    (USP: 10 if rof 800+)

(assuming inside effective range.)

Also, improving the USP by increasing the ROF (instead of increasing the
to hit bonus) seems a bit wrong.

(btw, I think that the change in factor to 12-4-4-3 is a bug in the
 spreadsheet: the formula only includes the number of weapons at short
 range. If each turret has one laser and you have a 10 turret battery
 the USP is something like 12-12-12-11)

If instead you use the CUSP stats:

	 1x75Mj    CUSP: 13/ 7    (penetration/damage)
	 1x750Mj   CUSP: 16/10
	10x75Mj    CUSP: 13/13

so CUSP is clearly using mode(b) and ROF only affects the "to hit" roll.

(btw CUSP is Bruce Alan Macintosh's combat system for T4. I'm not sure
 the T4 actually has an official starship combat system that works.)

If someone could post CUSP or a webpage where it is to be found, please?

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:08:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMHO the combining weapons into batteries rules are broken.

With a 10 weapon battery, you have three choices:

	(a) all fire at the same time and same spot.
 	(b) fire at different times at the same spot.
	(c) fire at the same time but at small distance offsets.

clearly:

	(a) increases penetration (and damage a bit) equal to one larger laser
	(b) increases damage (since it won't be exactly the same target cm2)
	(c) increases the chance to hit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Laser batteries in High Guard seem to use (c), for the most part. The main
effect of increased laser weapon factor (which you get from having more
turrets per battery) is an improved chance to hit, and an improved chance
to get through sandcasters. It's only with very small ships (under 900tns)
that you do any additional damage, and even that is often negated by
armor.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:15:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Whuffo contragrav?

On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> <snip>
> 
> I like it.  Probably have had a Virus use/design em somewhere.  Maybe the

While I chortled a bit designing the thing, the idea that it's run by
Virus is even more... even more... good.  Thanks for the feedback!

> society I'm setting up on Larspri/Dethenes/Old Expanses.  Ah, it's good to see
> vanilla FF&S on the TML again.   ;-)

Oh, believe me, I crave FF&SII.  It cries out for defilement.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 09:52:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
>GT really bugs me. It claims to be 'Imperial' but it's actually 'American'
>and then it mixes in SI units.... <sigh> It's silly, but most of the old
>Imperial units have little reference for me, except maybe height.

Well, it _could_ be the first clues that the US is becoming an empire in
name, as well as in fact :-)  

I was tempted, when I first got GT, to make all the units in "GT Shipyard"
truly Imperial instead of the wierd mixture used in the book. Laser output
in BTU, anyone?  Mass in slugs, volume in Imperial gallons...

In the end, I decided to stick with what was in the book, with the
addition of metric for myself.

My upcoming programs for GT (a Metator rewrite to fit the GT rules) will
also do this.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 09:58:28 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> writes:
>>There are some references in Strephon's memoirs in Survival Margin where
>he
>>basically implies that IRIS are a bunch of deluded loons with no power,
>>authority or relevance.
>
>My take was that IRIS was another faction in the rebellion, but that
>instead of trying to steal the iridium throne through military conquest
>they used subterfuge. The other factions were going along with them only
>to
>legitimize their own claim to power.

IRIS was officially a variant, that got written into almost all the
products that Chuck Gannon (the author) did for GDW.  I never liked it,
and always ignored references to it. After all, that's what variants are
for :-)

If I was going to use it, I would probably use something like Richard's
idea.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:16:14 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

>My upcoming programs for GT (a Metator rewrite to fit the GT rules) will
>also do this.

If you by this mean GURPS Vehivled 2ed on computer I'd like to know when it
will be done and what it will cost.

(I'm joking here, no sane person could possibly plan to do GURPS Vehicles
on comuter unless bankrolled by SJ-gam,es).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:56:47 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

>>My upcoming programs for GT (a Metator rewrite to fit the GT rules) will
>>also do this.
>
>If you by this mean GURPS Vehivled 2ed on computer I'd like to know when it
>will be done and what it will cost.
>
>(I'm joking here, no sane person could possibly plan to do GURPS Vehicles
>on comuter unless bankrolled by SJ-gam,es).

Besides, what he's talking about is *Even Better*.  A Metator rewrite at
last!!! (Sounds of great rejoicing in the background).

Rob, Metator is the single most useful program I've had the pleasure of
using for Traveller.  Want to know if there's a planetoid belt?  How about
a ring on that Gas Giant?  How far is the jump point...30 minuites or 30
hours?

I hope you will, in the spirit of the original program, leave a few spaces
open for user input (as the starship encounter tables were).  And if you
want to discuss possible trade table scenarios, let me know (I do not have
the T:G version of any such tables, I think they would be in the
to-be-published Far TRader supplement anyway).  I have thought a lot about
such things and have some large tables in process.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:29:13 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Striker Design Program/ Spreadsheet

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>
>   Does anyone have a program or spreadsheet for designing
> vehicles and systems under the "Striker" rules set?  I am
> going to start playing around with it, and don't want to
> reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.


I'm working on/plan to release a freeware Striker vehicle
design application for Win95/NT/98 later this summer.  I've
got to finish some upgrades for the Fire on the Suns Battle
Engine and V_MAP before I devote most of my free time to it.

It?  Gee, I have a basic design laid out and I haven't even
bothered to name it.  I guess I can call it the SDF for now.  :-)
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:41:58 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: UWP (long)

>Is the UWP in MT different than in T4?
>
>I'm trying to use the T4 UWP with World Builder Deluxe and I seem to be
>missing some elements and there are other inconsistencies.
>
>I would really love it if someone could post the rolling conventions and the
>interpretations (for each possible roll) of the MT UWP.  It would help me
>greatly.
>
>--Clif

Well, your asking for a lot of text, but I'll post somewhat and paraphrase
where possible;

Basic Mainworld Generation;

System Presence - based on sector density
Density       Roll
Rift         12+ on 2D
Sparse       6+ on 1D
Scattered    5+ on 1D
Standard     4+ on 1D
Dense        3+ on 1D

Starport  Roll 2d on this table;

Die    Backwater   Standard   Mature   Cluster
2        A           A          A         A
3        A           A          A         A
4        B           A          A         A
5        B           B          B         A
6        C           B          B         B
7        C           C          C         B
8        C           C          C         C
9        D           D          D         C
10       E           E          E         D
11       E           E          E         E
12       X           X          E         X
Backwater - out of mainstream interstellar culture and communication
Standard - is the expected norm
Mature - an older established system
Cluster - Many worlds close together.

Size 2D-2  Size = thousands of miles diameter (yes, miles)

Atmosphere 2D-7+size; basically 0 is vacuum, 1=trace, 2-3 are very thin,
4-5 is thin, 6-7 is standard, 8-9 is dense, A+ is Exotic in various ways.
2,4,7, and 9 are tainted.

Hydrographics; 2D-7+Size, if Size 1- Hyd=0, if atm is 1- or A+, apply -4
DM.  The number is the percent water of the surface area.

Population 2D-2 (No modifiers!).  Result is an "order of magnitude" for
pop.  i.e. 0 is 0-9 people, 1 is 10-99 people, etc.

Government 2D-7+pop.  I'm not going to go over all the possible results.  4
is representative democracy, 7 is balkanized, 0 is no government, A is
charismatic dictator.

Law Level; 2D-7+gov.  0 is no law, 1-3 is "low" law, 4-7 is "moderate" and
8-9 is "High.  A+ is "extreme" and the table goes to L which reads "Totally
Oppressive and Restrictive".  Big Brother time.

Tech Level; Roll 1D and add all possible modifiers from Tl Mod table.  No
I'm not reproducing that table (I've come close enough to copyright
infringement as it is).  Basically, A,B,and C starports get +6, +4, and +2
respectively, X gets -4, small worlds get bonuses, unbreathable atmospheres
get +1 (but not tainted ones), A+ Hydrographics get +1, populations other
than 0 or 6-8 get plusses, and certain gov'ts get +1 or -2.

Navy and Scouts are determined based on starport and a 2D roll.

Trade Classsifications are too complicated for this forum.

Supplemental remarks (such as Research Station of Subsector Capital) are
determined by the referee.

Pop Multiplier is simply a random 0-9 roll (using 1D6...interesting).

Gas Giants are present on a 5+ on 2D.

Planetoids belts are present on 8+ on 2D

Travel zones are generally determined by thereferee, but certain high
law/high government codes will trigger and automatic amber or red
classification.

Allegiance is determined by context and referee.

That's about it.  The extended system generation starts with this and adds
a bunch of other details, pretty much along the lines of the WBH.  I don't
have T4 here to compare with, but I remember it being pretty close to MT.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:07:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sand Caster Question

John Buston writes:
> In G:T you can store 77 missiles in the magazine in each 500cf
> mount (3 mounts to a turret) plus presumably one in the launcher.
> 
> This is quite an achievement as a G:T missile is 6 cf.
> So *at least* 462 cf (77 * 6cf) is occupied by missiles 
> leaving 38 cf for the missile launcher, the magazine rack,
> dead space and one third of a "roomy" crew station.

Actually, the crewstation is in the body (and the 'real' volume of a GT missile
is about 4.3 cf, the remaining space requirement is for streamlining).  As it
happens, the missile launcher is quite small (which is not actually
unreasonable, missile launchers _are_ small) so while one could argue that the
feed mechanism should be a bit larger, it isn't really all that unreasonable.

Of course, there's no requirement that you fill a missile rack anyway -- I
probably wouldn't give your average merchant more than 10-20 missiles per
launcher, missiles are expensive and its not like you're very likely to be able
to use up that many.

> 
> I had assumed they were about a third the volume of a missile = 2 cf.
> 
> Using your CT figures would make them only two-thirds of a cubic foot,
> (with a density of 3g/cm3). 200 would occupy 127 cf.  This sounds about
> right.

Hm...while its unclear what sort of material 'sand' is in any case, most of the
obvious candidates have significantly lower density than that.  Certainly sand
is less dense than this.
> 
> In fact using this as a basis you should be able to store 77 missiles
> *per turret*.
> 
> What gives?

Sand is probably assumed to fill 1 cf/50 lb in GT, which is the 'default'
density for any unknown material.  That means that, including packing, it's
less dense than water (note that the missiles are too).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:09:17 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

As far as "Canonicity" goes IMHO it really doesn't exist in role playing.  As
you said, we as the game group/game master/god of all known universes (my
personal favorite) can decide to use or not use a rule/object/race...ect.
Perhaps in convention tourney play you could argue if something is canonical
or not but even then it's going to be up to the judges and they wont always
decide the same depending on the area or sponsers or personal opinions.
Canonicity is something best left to TV series' and movies, book series',
things like that.  For role playing it would be too stiffling for most of the
real creative players and judges.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 10:53:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 

Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> Michel Vaillancourt & I have been working on a 1000 ton luxury liner for
> Classic Traveller.
> 

I could be mean, and not share, but....

Does anyone want detailed luxury liner deckplans? hie thee hence to:

http://www.carnival.com/ships/shipmenu.asp

And click on the various ship names on the left. That takes you to a
detailed deckplan maps (of the public spaces, at least) of various
Canival ships.

This will give you a good idea of the ratio of open, common spaces to
stateroom spaces on real ships that coop people up for a week or two at
a time. (as well as INSTANT deckplans...I plan on sucking every .gif I
can off that site, and look up other sites as well)

Notice how over half the ships public spaces are common spaces...

makes Paul's and Michaels ship look cramped as a Greyhound in
comparison...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 10:10:39 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Curved or Flat Windows?

>Subject: Re: Curved or Flat Windows?
...
>>Wasn't there a reason that the Army's helicopters went to a flat window
>>design?

  It might be a materials issue; some armourglass compounds may be best used in
configurations of flat panes. OTOH, I doubt that those choppers are using
quartz.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:16:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: 

I too have used Carnival's site after having been on one of the ships and
getting a map whilst on it (identical to what's on the website basically).
This site also helped me while playing around with cabin layouts for the
deckplans on my site, and for figuring out how much space was used by their
cabins vs. Trav small and large staterooms.

Jesse

>Paul Schirf wrote:
>>
>> Michel Vaillancourt & I have been working on a 1000 ton luxury liner for
>> Classic Traveller.
>>
>
>I could be mean, and not share, but....
>
>Does anyone want detailed luxury liner deckplans? hie thee hence to:
>
>http://www.carnival.com/ships/shipmenu.asp
>
>And click on the various ship names on the left. That takes you to a
>detailed deckplan maps (of the public spaces, at least) of various
>Canival ships.
>
>This will give you a good idea of the ratio of open, common spaces to
>stateroom spaces on real ships that coop people up for a week or two at
>a time. (as well as INSTANT deckplans...I plan on sucking every .gif I
>can off that site, and look up other sites as well)
>
>Notice how over half the ships public spaces are common spaces...
>
>makes Paul's and Michaels ship look cramped as a Greyhound in
>comparison...
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:18:08 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Total Recall 2070

steve daniels wrote:

> > VERY Traveller.
>
> There was jump drive?  Aslan?  An Imperium?  Ancients?

Well, I didn't say it was EXACTLY Traveller.  It just captures the feel I
go for in many of my games.  It was much more Traveller than, say, The
Fifth Element.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 20:07:45
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Hit Location

Here are asome quick&dirty rules for hit locations in Traveller. Please
read and comment. 
The rules are mainly for  pre-G:Traveller systems
(like CT, T4, various homebrew... note the *canonical* 2d6 roll...).
I'm looking for a simple (and fast) mechanic for use in specials cases, so
hypercomplex systems are out.


2d6    Area    Damage    To Hit
roll    Hit    Mod       mod.
- ---------------------------------
 12+    Head    x2        -5
10-11  Vitals   x2        -5
 8-9    Arms    x1/2      -4 (opt. hands:-6)
 5-7   Torso    x1        -2
  4    Thighs   x1        -3
  3-    Legs    x1/2      -5 (opt. feet:-6)

After having determined if a hit lands, roll 2d6 and consult the table.
Area hit: Torso includes abdomen and shoulders. Arms include hands, and
legs include feet.

Damage modifier is optional, but multipliers should be applied *after*
having counted armor effects. Remember that if you apply both these
rules and any other "critical" system (like the -5 for double damage
rule in T4) fights could be much bloodier.

To hit mod is used when someone wants to target a specific body part.

In some instances you may apply small modifiers to this roll, for
example, using short melee weapons (fists, clubs, broken bottles or
knives) you should roll 2d6+1. A small animal would probably use a 2d6-1,
unless, it dropped from the above...









__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:17:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: UWP (long)

Thanks Pete!  Anyone have anything to add?

>That's about it.  The extended system generation starts with this and adds
>a bunch of other details, pretty much along the lines of the WBH.  I don't
>have T4 here to compare with, but I remember it being pretty close to MT.
>
>Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:35:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T4 Suite

"cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Has anyone got a copy or know where I get a copy of the Marc Miller's
>Traveller Suite (Character Generator, Navigator, Die Roller etc) ? Any help
>is greatly appreciated.

AKA the Dulinor Suite.

BITS originally supported this but don't anymore. However, last time I
checked, the author, Jo Grant, had the source code on his site, and may
have had the program. I can't remember the direct URL, but it is linked via
BITS (http://www.bits.org.uk) on the Products page, under discontinued
products.

Cheers,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:02:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes

The Heretic writes:

>On 03/07/99 at 08:42 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:
<snip>

>>GT really bugs me. It claims to be 'Imperial' but it's actually
>>'American' and then it mixes in SI units.... <sigh>
>Gee, Dom, but that's what *we* call it over here; feet, pounds,
>quarts are what we call the Imperial system.  Ok, they don't match
>with what the British ended up with in every case, but that was
>their origin and so in *your* honor that's what we call them.  ;-p

'Honour' ;-)

I thought that one of our Canadian Comrades would jump in and claim calling
'American' units 'Imperial' was proof of the true intent of the capitalist
military-industrial complex?

Anyay, it can't be in *my* honour - I was born post decimalisation (which
kind of coincides with creeping metrication).

>Oh, and fortnight is a perfectly normal word over here too.  Not
>used a lot, but still perfectly valid.  If many Americans don't know
>what a fortnight, a furlong, or a fathom is then that says something
>about our educational systems...not our language. ;->

Isn't a furlong what you get when you skin a........

<grin>

>>It's silly, but most of the old Imperial units have little
>>reference for me, except maybe height.
>Then more's the pity!  IMO, of course.  Sure, SI units are nice for
>arithmetic, but the amounts they represent are often less
>"humancentric", again IMO.

Actually, I used to reference weight against a 1lb bag of sugar, but now
it's mass against a 500g bag... I know what you mean about the less
intuitive dimensions, but a metre is kind of a stretched yard...

>Could be.  I cut my teeth on D&D and Traveller, first editions, so I
>expect the GM to have to create the rules...not just change them.

Me? I started with Basic (the blue covered book pre-red box) D&D, CoC 2nd
Edition and Traveller Starter Edition; what's more, as a kid I couldn't
afford to buy loads of source material which was why Traveller with Books 1
through 5 was so good. I do occasionally get cravings for a dungeon crawl,
or a tomb to explore, but it's not that common now.

>Eris,
>    Ok, come on over to the Light side, if the Dark side doesn't
>    appeal to you...it's all relative anyway. ;->

I thought the true heretic would be grey?

Okay, I'll admit it. As a kid, back in 77/78 when we used to play Star Wars
in the playground and I was 7 or 8, I used to always get to play Darth
Vader, as I was the tallest. My friend always played Skywalker because he
was called Luke. We drastically reshaped Lucas' plot as the Dark side won
and tried to throttle Luke until a teacher pointed out it wasn't a good
idea. But we stayed friends.

Obtrav? Well, without Star Wars I wouldn't be playing this game, that and
the Foundation Series and Andre Norton some three or four years later.

Dom

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #258
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 259



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Canonicity
Re: the nastiest monster
re: UWP
re:T4.1 Question
FUDGE: Traveller
Re: [debate]  volume of debate so far
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)
GT : Solomani Escort from Alien Module 6
GT : Solomani Free Trader from Alien Module 6
GT : Solomani Fleet Courier from Alien Module 6
GT : Solomani Bulk Carrier from Alien Module 6
GT : (Final) Solomani Cruiser from Alien Module 6
Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes
Re: the nastiest monster

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:19:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>DGP was the most successful 3rd party producer for Traveller, it seems, and
>their stuff was well done, even if it wasn't always exactly consistent w/ GDW
>and/or MMs Traveller Universe.  IG, and T4/M:0, I lump in w/ the other 3rd
>party stuff like Judges Guild, Paranoia Press, and FASA (etc).  It looks like
>Traveller and is interesting for data mining, but is very poor at sometimes
>even internal consistency, much less with anything by GDW and/or the official
>universe/timeline.  I guess I lump G:T in here, too.

<sighs>

<grin>
But TNE wasn't consistent! The M-Drive was different, there weren't any
fusion guns, Virus was flawed... rant, slobber, drool, rant.....
</grin>

I feel warm already ;-) I think that IG's material would be fine if you
threw away First Survey, Anomalies, Starships (fine mousemat), most of
Missions of State, and burned the Annililik Run.

Dom (Webmaster for 'the other 3rd party stuff' manufacturer known as BITS)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:40:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>You just reminded me of another Schmitz nasty. It's from one of the
>Telzey stories. Somebody sics a sort of telepathic "hound" on her.
>
>Basicly, once given the "scent" (sample psi imprint), it'll tune in on
>the psi's mind. If the psi isn't shielded, it picks up their sensory
>impressions of their location. It then *teleports* to them and kills
>them.


Sort of a CoC Hound of Tindalos?



Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:09:10 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: UWP

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:

>Is the UWP in MT different than in T4?
>
>I'm trying to use the T4 UWP with World Builder Deluxe and I seem to be
>missing some elements and there are other inconsistencies.
>
>I would really love it if someone could post the rolling conventions and the
>interpretations (for each possible roll) of the MT UWP.  It would help me
>greatly.

The general UWP is the same with AXXXXXX-TL PBG as the format. Some trade
classifications have changed. The actual method of calculating is unchanged.

However, the UWP data in the First Survey and MO books was generated by
regressing the old Imperial Atlas (CT) data (IIRC) using a computer
program. This has never been released to my knowledge, and was flawed
(witness the Law Level = Gov error), and not checked against canon. Carlos,
Volker and some others have corrected M0 data on websites. The Missouri
Archive, linked off BITS (Jumpsite) had the complete First Survey Data as a
download file.

Hope this helps,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:39:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:T4.1 Question

"cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Which files do I need to get hold of to be running T4.1? I have all of the
>errata files that are at Joe Heck's site (Thanks :)), but are there more
>files needed?

Email Marc Miller at FarFuture@aol.com and ask him (nicely ;-) ) to send
you a copy of the T4.1/T5 playtest draft. If you want the new task levels
quickly, they're given on the combat cribsheet on the BITS site, on the
archive page.

T4.1/T5 has an improved character generation system and task system. The
combat you basically use as is T4 at the moment (a more detailed system is
coming though). I would recommend finding High Guard for Classic Traveller
to use for starships.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:25:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FUDGE: Traveller

Hi all.  

I remember someone mentioning playing Traveller using the FUDGE system.
I'm thinking of doing so myself and would like to hear any advice or
suggestions from those who have tried it.  For instance:  What combat
rules did you use?  What is a good damage scale?  Any suggestions on
converting CT/MT/T4 characters to FUDGE?

Thanks in advance,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:37:55 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: [debate]  volume of debate so far

Jeff, I got the following  errors when trying to email you directly at
jzeitlin@cyburban.com.
jzeitlin is undeliverable
550 Access denied
I will try to post the compiled list to my Web page tonight.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:41:31 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

>If instead you use the CUSP stats:
>         1x75Mj    CUSP: 13/ 7    (penetration/damage)
>         1x750Mj   CUSP: 16/10
>        10x75Mj    CUSP: 13/13

>        (b) fire at different times at the same spot.
>so CUSP is clearly using mode(b) and ROF only affects the "to hit" roll.

Basically; multiple lasers in a battery are firing at (nearly) the same
time at (nearly) the same spot; they don't hit within a cm of each other - 
so each hit as to penetrate the armour by itself, multiple weapons don't
help penetration - but they do generally hit the same system and so their
damage gets added together. In fact, as you can see, this is a more efficient
way to damage a target than one big laser, as long as you can penetrate
the armour (which makes sense; lots of little hits are a good way to damage
an unarmoured target.)

ROF does primarily affect the "to hit" roll - which indirectly affects
damage; for each two points you make the to-hit roll by, damage is increased
by one point up to a maximum of your ROF.

>(btw CUSP is Bruce Alan Macintosh's combat system for T4.
>If someone could post CUSP or a webpage where it is to be found, please?

It's not on the web yet. I'm still in-between drafts (trying to tweak point
defence so it works and adding damage control rules and some general
cleaning up.) I can email copies of the work-in-progress to anyone who is
heavily interested...if I ever have a couple of weekends with not much to do
(ha!) I hope to finish it and post it here.

I actually call the thing "MCS", for "Military Combat System" - or, if I'm
feeling grandiose, "Fusion Guard".

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:58:13 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

Y-e-a-r-s ago I remember reading a book (really!).

Anyway, it was a long time ago and I've forgotten most of the plot, so I'll
try to sum it up as best I can (I think it was a short story).  A group of
IISS scout types land on a planet for repairs and proceed to go about their
business.  A few hours later one of their party is found dead-- she had
been shot.  Not a sound was heard and the group quickly set up a perimeter
to protect against the "sniper".  Another scout goes down and the group
opens fire in all directions, oblivious to the actual direction of the
attack.

Finally, a loud metallic bang is heard and the group finds a hefty dent on
the outside of a whatever they were using for ground transport.  On the
ground they find the badly mangled remains of some sort of flying insect.
High speed footage later proved that the planet was host to a strange form
of flying insect possessing an extremely hard armoured carapace, which
could fly at extremely high-- yet still subsonic-- velocities.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:00:43 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

(On the subject of Point Defence weapons)

>There are three opinions:
>
>#1
>one point defence turret is so effective against missiles (and cheap,
>low power, low tech, etc) that you fit one and then the rest of your
>lasers are free to shoot at the enemy ship without worry.
>
>#2
>one point defence turret is so effective against missiles (and cheap,
>low power, low tech, etc) that no one in their right minds would ever
>fit missiles to a ship, all the missile companies have gone bankrupt
>and you don't need a point defence turret.
>
>#3
>as long as everyone else believes in #2, your missiles will either get
>through or tie up the enemy main batteries.
>
>:-)

So, a PD turret is a good thing to have around :)  Thanks to Swordworlder, I
now have a copy of BL in my hot little hands, yet I've run into a bit more
confusion.  There seems to be no specific reference to PD weapons.  Are they
allowed to engage multiple targets?  Specifically, how are PD turrets
handled? To be effective, I would think that a single turret would be firing
on a number of incoming missiles each turn.  (I know the answers should be
obvious, but without a reference I must ask :)

>Also note that under FFS2, the number of hardpoints restriction seems to
>have gone, to be replaced by area restrictions. Even under High Guard,
>A PD weapon could be one turret versus an anti-ship array which could
>be ten triple turrets. In High guard, you cannot have both but in T4
>you can, so a couple of PD turrets will probably fit into the rounding
>errors on a T4 design.

I had noticed that the hardpoint restriction was no longer in effect, but I
had generally enforced it in my designs so that I could easily compare my
designs to others.  (And to keep the torch-wielding villagers at bay)  I
hadn't thought of taking advantage of a bit of rounding.  That will solve a
bit of my dilemma.

>Dedicated ships work in theory but don't be sidetracked by modern
>naval fleets. If the Earth was flat and guns and missiles had the
>same range, then my gun ships could shoot your anti-missile ships
>leaving you defenceless against my missile ships.

Excellent point.  I was wrestling with with where to draw the line on
dedicated ships.  Also, I thought of using ships equipped entirely with beam
weapons in a two-fold role; Fleet defense and long range operations.

In fleet operations they would concentrate on shooting down enemy fighters
and missiles.  They would have the added benifit of being able to operate on
long range missions with a minimum of supply.  Needing only rations and
other consumables, they could conceivably carry everything they would need
in their own cargo holds.  Thus needing fewer support vessels.

>However, using something small (like fighters) against missiles does
>seem to make sense because it gives the defender two layers of missile
>defence.

I hadn't thought of that either.  I like the idea of fighters, and anything
that justifies their existance and helps define their role is helpful.


>IMHO the combining weapons into batteries rules are broken.
>
>With a 10 weapon battery, you have three choices:
>
> (a) all fire at the same time and same spot.
> (b) fire at different times at the same spot.
> (c) fire at the same time but at small distance offsets.

<<Lots of great info snipped>>

Thanks for the breakdown, and the very specific examples.  Defining A,B, and
C above helps tremendously.
Also, I had thought that there were some problems in the calculations, but
being a bit mathematically challenged I couldn't quite figure out the
answer(s) with any confidence.

> "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

...I've got a million of 'em...half-baked ideas, that is.

Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:10:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)

<rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
What makes an encountered "monster" the most terrifying?
</rogerbarr@hotmail.com>

Well, I'm personally a big fan of teleportation, though it can be
overused.  A teleporting baddy can pop in on you when you least expect it
and can disappear before you take him out.  Very unerving and frustrating
to PCs.

Another bugger is mental domination.  Someone else mentioned the ability
to make people "sleepy", that's a good one.  Another is total control,
forcing one PC to attack another.  I faced this a couple of weeks ago as a
player in a fantasy RPG campaign (Talislanta, FYI, it's really cool) and
it just really has the effect of making everyone stop and say "what the
hell do we do now?"  The usual combat rythm of "shoot/slice/beat it until
it stops shooting/slicing/beating us" just goes right out the window.  

The danger with mental domination is it can really piss some players off. 
I used it on some newbies a couple of months ago (the evil
mind-controlling flowers mentioned in a previous "Nastiest monster" post)
and one of my new-to-RPGs players just couldn't handle it!  She got all
flipped out!  Some people just can't draw a line between fantasy and
reality!  (God bless them :-)

One last one I'll mention is insanity.  This is especially relevant to
sophont baddies, of course, but can apply to animals and such as well.  It
basically means that the PCs can't predict the behavior of their opponent.
Now, combine this with teleportation and mental domination (yes, I have
:-) and you get a really NASTY adversary!

Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:20:58 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Solomani Escort from Alien Module 6

I'm working my way through converting the starships in the Alien modules
for GT, so I'll post them here as they are ready.



200ton Solomani Escort (Type SF), Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm/Gunnery, 1 x Navigation/Commo/Sensor, 1 x
 Engineering/Gunnery
 Total Crew = 3

Specifications:
 200ton Very Good Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Heavy
 Compartmentalisation, Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard
 (Default) Hull Materials, Expensive Metal (Default), DR 500, PD
 4, +8 size mod, 79.8978 MCr, 19391 HP, Basic Stealth, Basic
 Emissions Cloaking, 1 Unhardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1
 Utility, 25 Maneuver, 10 Powered Jump, 80 Jump Fuel (20 for Jump
 1), 1 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to process), 3 Staterooms (3 Crew, 0
 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 1 Low Berth (4 capacity, 0 Low
 Passage), 18 Cargo, 1 TL 12  AESA scan 44 (1 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL
 12 PESA scan 44 (1 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 35 (0.5
 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 15, AJ 15, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0
 MW), 1 x 1 tons capacity Space Dock (Air/Raft), 4 spaces for
 fixed weapons - 2 405Mj X-Ray Lasers (Fixed), 2 Missile Launcers
 (Fixed)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 522.8 tons, LMass 614.8 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 2 tons), EMass 418.8 tons (less fuel), LMass 510.8 tons
 (less fuel), Air Speed 3808 mph (6128 km/h), Acceleration - 4.78G
 Empty, 4.07G Loaded, 5.97G Empty (less Fuel), 4.89G Loaded (less
 Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12 AESA (in pop turret): 6.51 tons, 1 spaces, 4.01255 MCr
 Scan 44 in space, 300000 miles (482700 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 7.66 tons, 1 spaces, 12.2152 MCr
 Scan 44 in space, 300000 miles (482700 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 1.25 tons, 0.5 spaces, 0.525 MCr
 Scan 35 , 10000 miles (16090 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 15, Area Jammer 15, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.158 tons, 0.5 spaces, 0.929 MCr







- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:22:17 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Solomani Free Trader from Alien Module 6

400ton Solomani Free Trader (Type SA), Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation/Commo/Sensor, 1 x Engineering,
 2 x Stewards/Medical
 Total Crew = 5

Specifications:
 400ton Good Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Normal
 Compartmentalisation, Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard
 (Default) Hull Materials, Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD
 4, +9 size mod, 63.9731 MCr, 30780 HP, 1 Unhardened Basic
 Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 30 Maneuver, 12 Powered Jump,
 80 Jump Fuel (40 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to
 process), 15 Staterooms (5 Crew, 10 High Passage, 0 Middle
 Passage), 142.5 Cargo, 1 x 0.5 tons capacity Space Dock
 (Air/Raft), 2 turret(s)

Performance:
 Jump 2, EMass 447.13 tons, LMass 1161.63 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 2 tons), EMass 343.13 tons (less fuel), LMass 1057.63
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 1747 mph (2811 km/h), Acceleration -
 3.35G Empty, 1.29G Loaded, 4.37G Empty (less Fuel), 1.42G Loaded
 (less Fuel)


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:23:17 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Solomani Fleet Courier from Alien Module 6

200ton Solomani Fleet Courier (Type SX), Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation, 1 x Commo/Sensor, 1 x
 Engineering, 2 x Gunnery
 Total Crew = 6

Specifications:
 200ton Very Good Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Heavy
 Compartmentalisation, Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default)
 Hull Materials, Advanced Metal Armor, DR 200, PD 4, +8 size mod,
 79.4911 MCr, 38781 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Basic Stealth, Basic
 Emissions Cloaking, 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1
 Utility, 17 Maneuver, 8 Powered Jump, 60 Jump Fuel (20 for Jump
 1), 1 Fuel Processor (7.5 hrs to process), 7 Staterooms (7 Crew,
 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 15 Cargo, 1 TL 12  AESA scan
 44 (1 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 45 (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1
 TL 12 Radscanner scan 35 (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16,
 AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 x 20 tons capacity Vehicle
 Bay (20std Gig), 2 turret(s) - 2 Triple 405Mj X-Ray Laser
 Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 3, EMass 378.27 tons, LMass 513.27 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 60 tons), EMass 300.27 tons (less fuel), LMass 435.27
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 2963 mph (4767 km/h), Acceleration -
 4.49G Empty, 3.31G Loaded, 5.66G Empty (less Fuel), 3.91G Loaded
 (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 6.51 tons, 1 spaces, 4.01255 MCr
 Scan 44 in space, 300000 miles (482700 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 11.45 tons, 1.5 spaces, 18.2199 MCr
 Scan 45 in space, 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 1.25 tons, 0.5 spaces, 0.525 MCr
 Scan 35 , 10000 miles (16090 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr







- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:24:20 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Solomani Bulk Carrier from Alien Module 6

1000ton Solomani Bulk Carrier (Type SK), Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation, 2 x Commo/Sensor, 2 x
 Engineering, 2 x Stewards, 1 x Medical, 1 x Flight
 Total Crew = 10

Specifications:
 1000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Sealed, Normal Compartmentalisation,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull
 Materials, Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD 4, +10 size
 mod, 155.1874 MCr, 56697 HP, 1 Unhardened Command Bridge, 1
 Engineering, 2 Utility, 80 Maneuver, 30 Powered Jump, 200 Jump
 Fuel (100 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (25 hrs to process), 20
 Staterooms (9 Crew, 11 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 4 Low
 Berth (16 capacity, 16 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 536 Cargo, 1 x
 30 tons capacity Space Dock (usually 30std Ships Boat), 2
 turrets

Performance:
 Jump 2, EMass 992.77 tons, LMass 3762.77 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 90 tons), EMass 732.77 tons (less fuel), LMass 3502.77
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0 km/h), Acceleration - 4.03G
 Empty, 1.06G Loaded, 5.46G Empty (less Fuel), 1.14G Loaded (less
 Fuel)

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:25:35 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : (Final) Solomani Cruiser from Alien Module 6

1000ton Solomani Cruiser (Type SM), Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 5 x Commo/Sensor, 2 x
 Engineering, 10 x Gunnery, 1 x Medical, 1 x Computer, 2 x Flight
 Total Crew = 24

Specifications:
 1000ton Fair Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Heavy
 Compartmentalisation, Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default)
 Hull Materials, Advanced Metal Armor, DR 1300, PD 4, +10 size
 mod, 433.0405 MCr, 113394 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth,
 Radical Emissions Cloaking, 1 Hardened Command Bridge, 1
 Engineering, 2 Utility, 111 Maneuver, 50 Powered Jump, 400 Jump
 Fuel (100 for Jump 1), 4 Fuel Processor (12.5 hrs to process),
 30 Staterooms (30 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 5 Low
 Berth (20 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 30 Cargo, 1 TL 12
 AESA scan 45 (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 46 (2 spaces,
 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 37 (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite
 (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 2 x 50 tons capacity
 Vehicle Bay (50std Modular Cutters), 2 x 30 tons capacity
 Vehicle Bay (30std cutter modules), 10 turrets - 10 Triple 405Mj
 X-Ray Laser Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 2618.09 tons, LMass 2770.09 tons (Estimated
 carried mass = 2 tons), EMass 2098.09 tons (less fuel), LMass
 2250.09 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 2696 mph (4339 km/h),
 Acceleration - 4.24G Empty, 4.01G Loaded, 5.29G Empty (less
 Fuel), 4.93G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12 AESA (in pop turret): 9.73 tons, 1.5 spaces, 5.98515 MCr
 Scan 45 in space, 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 17.77 tons, 2 spaces, 28.2267 MCr
 Scan 46 in space, 700000 miles (1126300 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 2.5 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.025 MCr
 Scan 37 , 20000 miles (32180 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:43:23 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

In GDW's Imperium game, space combat had initiative and range, much
like High Guard. One side would put a ship forward, the other would match
one ship against it, then the side with more ships got to start doubling
and tripling up attackers. You'd bring lots of light ships with you if you
could...your best option would be for a cheapie scout to match every one
of his ships, so you could decide exactly where your battlewagons would
shoot and be shot at instead of him getting to choose. This was very
important, since the Terrans had energy weapons and the Imperium had
missile weapons - it was very good for you to keep your important ships
out of harms way while the engagement range was right for his weapons
and wrong for yours.  Also, you could only have a High Guardish "reserve"
(ships that could not be attacked) if you had more ships than the enemy
fleet - otherwise you'd have to put forward your tankers and transports for
him to match ships against.

This ability of war scouts, destroyers and such to screen heavier units
is one of my favorite bits about Imperium - it can add a lot of technique
to space-combat slugfests. It tended to be hard on the light units, though.

In Imperium, Fighter Squadrons could match against an enemy ship, 
serving the same screening (and occaisonal effective attack) role as a
scout or destroyer. I assumed that each Imperium squadron counter
represented a good number of fighters, as the carrier could only carry
three of them.

Now, imagine this concept mated to High Guard. If you don't have enough
combat units to engage every enemy combat asset, the unengaged ones
get to go play hell with your support units. A fighter screen, even if it
can't do ship-killing attacks, can engage an enemy unit enough to keep
it away from the support units...but the enemy could always bring a bigger
fighter screen.

In this case, the main purpose of the fighter screen - considering how hard
it is for a fighter to affect a warship - is to delay the enemy force until the
big friendly ship can deal with it - maintain contact, force the enemy to
maintain combat readiness and combat evasion maneuvers, divert and
delay the enemy so he doesn't escape or get a clear shot at some target
the task force is attempting to defend.

I haven't worked out optional rules for this yet, but wanted to present the 
idea to the lists for comment.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 13:07:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes

At 07:02 PM 3/8/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Oh, and fortnight is a perfectly normal word over here too.  Not
>used a lot, but still perfectly valid.  If many Americans don't know
>what a fortnight, a furlong, or a fathom is then that says something
>about our educational systems...not our language. ;->

A few years ago, there was a ballot measure for a new ballpark for the SF
Giants.  The proposed park (now under construction) had it's right-field
fence backed by the bay.  Any homeruns to right would land in the water.

One of the better ads for the campaign was "vote for a ballpark where
homeruns aren't measured in feet, but fathoms!"  After these ads began
running, and outraged letter showed up in the Chronicle, decrying the
introduction of *metric* measurements to the Grand Old Game of Baseball!

ObTrav: A misunderstanding of terms lands the characters in deep water.. :)
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:20:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

James W. Lindsay wrote:
> 
> Y-e-a-r-s ago I remember reading a book (really!).
> 

> High speed footage later proved that the planet was host to a strange form
> of flying insect possessing an extremely hard armoured carapace, which
> could fly at extremely high-- yet still subsonic-- velocities.

<GRIN> One of Carl Hiaasen's novels (Double Whammy IIRC, though if you
have to read them all to get to the right one you won't have wasted your
time ;-) is centered around a professional bass fisherman. He describes
how one of his buddies died...barreling across a lake at 65-70 mph he
ran smack into a june bug...drilled right through his eye and into his
brain. All the fishermen wore high-impact safety glasses after
that...;-)

The thing is, you gotta wonder _why_ that little bug evolved such a high
speed lifestyle...what's it running from...?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #259
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, March 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 260



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

"Lost" Keith Brothers supplements - Status?
Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"
Re: the nastiest monster
making it hard for the players
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Canonicity
Re: Canonicity
Re: Canonicity
Re: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies
New Spaceport Completed
Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions
Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)
Re: Debate material
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes 
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: GT : Solomani Free Trader from Alien Module 6
Would anyone have any of the following:
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Stateroom size (RL reference)
GURPS Vehicles on Computer
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:32:28 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: "Lost" Keith Brothers supplements - Status?

Has anyone heard a status on the "lost"
Keith Brothers' Traveller supplements
which was supposed to have been published
awhile back?

It's now March and I haven't received
a thing for my $100. Regardless of the
desireability for quality, I am now
becoming rather irritated.

Has anyone received these items
from Paul Sanders?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:40:42 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: IRIS or "Double-Crossing for fun and Profit"

In a message dated 3/7/99 11:26:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, rdhough@home.com
writes:

<< 
 My take was that IRIS was another faction in the rebellion, but that
 instead of trying to steal the iridium throne through military conquest
 they used subterfuge. The other factions were going along with them only to
 legitimize their own claim to power.
  >>

	I always assumed that the IRIS group was the "public face" of the Brothers of
Varian faction described in the Rebellion Sourcebook or merely a scheme of
theirs to descredit the "dishonorable:".

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:58:12 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

James W. Lindsay writes:
"High speed footage later proved that the planet was host 
to a strange form of flying insect possessing an extremely 
hard armoured carapace, which could fly at extremely high-
- - yet still subsonic-- velocities."

	To my great frustration, I cannot remember the name 
	of this story. IIRC it is about an 'Arc' of humans 
	looking for a new home. I believe that there are more
	than one planet visited, and they gave up on that one 
	after discovering the deadly little bugs.

Bruce Johnson writes:
"The thing is, you gotta wonder _why_ that little bug evolved 
such a high speed lifestyle...what's it running from...?"

	Just what I wondered when I read it. IIRC the bugs 
	moved using magnetic fields in short bursts and were 
	killed by the impacts. Doesn't sound very adaptive,
	but who knows.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 15:10:45 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: making it hard for the players

when I was incharge of Camelot IV's sci fi competetion I ran a Battletech
challenge I used the blind rules option, a friend of mine who worked at
S.C.I. Labs in Huntsville Ala printed out a single sheet of hex paper that
was 4 ft by 6 ft and spent the next week and 8 marking pens drawing
tunnels. Each player started in seperate sections of the paper. Only the 3
in by 3 in area that each player was in was visible to that player, each
player made their moves without any other player watching. I kept track of
where everyone was on a smaller identical sheet I had on my clip board. As
the minutes passed the players anxiety increased as they realised that when
they eventually encountered their opponents it would be at range 3-4. The
players that had choosen LRM were at a disadvantage (they knew they would
be cave fighting but still took LRMs) Explosions and Cave-ins later one
player emmerged victorious. I gave the huge sheet as an added award to the
winner. I ran the Darthon (sp) Queen module as a blind traveller tourney
challange while Stationed in Fort Hood one year. Blind challenges seem to
really make the players work harder.
 bumper sticker

		Save trees, wipe your behind with an owl.

		Honk, if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a 
		car window!

		Cat. The other white meat.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:30:55 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:58:12 -0500, Ian Ferguson wrote:

> James W. Lindsay writes:
> "High speed footage later proved that the planet was host 
> to a strange form of flying insect possessing an extremely 
> hard armoured carapace, which could fly at extremely high-
> - yet still subsonic-- velocities."
> 
> 	To my great frustration, I cannot remember the name 
> 	of this story. IIRC it is about an 'Arc' of humans 
> 	looking for a new home. I believe that there are more
> 	than one planet visited, and they gave up on that one 
> 	after discovering the deadly little bugs.

"Hmmm..." <-- (sound of 40W light bulb humming above my head)

> Bruce Johnson writes:
> "The thing is, you gotta wonder _why_ that little bug evolved 
> such a high speed lifestyle...what's it running from...?"
> 
> 	Just what I wondered when I read it. IIRC the bugs 
> 	moved using magnetic fields in short bursts and were 
> 	killed by the impacts. Doesn't sound very adaptive,
> 	but who knows.

Sure messes with the PC's minds, though (until they find out what they're
up against).  Imagine the wasted ammo trying vainly to shoot at a target
that is unknowingly no larger than the bullets being fired... the first
image that comes to mind is the scene from Predator (you know the one).



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:31:56 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> > DGP was the most successful 3rd party producer for Traveller, it seems, and
> > their stuff was well done, even if it wasn't always exactly consistent w/ GDW
> > and/or MMs Traveller Universe.  IG, and T4/M:0, I lump in w/ the other 3rd
> > party stuff like Judges Guild, Paranoia Press, and FASA (etc).
> 
> IG the company had problems.  But some of the products were first rate.
> And long overdue additions to the Traveller universes.  If it weren't for
> T4, I probably would never have gotten back into Traveller at all.

I wasn't referring to IGs notorious production values and editing, but rather
to it's consistency with (GDW's) previously published material.  I don't have
enough of T4 to judge on its internal consistency.  I'd definately have to
rate it behind DGP, but think it's about as 'canonical' as anything from any
of the other 3rd party Traveller producers.  Has to be taken with a grain of
salt, but should be usable in some way.

> > mysteries" are going to be explored at all.  My intention is to review Far
> > Trader and First In and w/o seeing them am probably at bout 40/60 against
on
> > getting them, w/o the results of a first impression from holding one in my
> > hand.  ;-)
> 
> Aw, don't say that.  I've got a copy of Far Trader in my hands right now.
> And its absolutely beautiful.  Especially that part with my name on the
cover.
> :-)  Sorry, but I can't be objective about the contents.  The art however,
> I had nothing to do with and its excellent!  Far Trader is IMHO adaptable
> to any Traveller settings.

Well, like i said, i haven't held one yet.  :-)  I'm also interested in system
generation w/ the latest info and knowledge.  The same with Far Trader.  The
odds may change considerably once I get a copy to preview.  It was only a few
short months ago that I got World Tamer's Handbook to complete my TNE
collection.

Dom Mooney "ranted, slobbered, and drooled":

> But TNE wasn't consistent! The M-Drive was different, there weren't any
> fusion guns, Virus was flawed... rant, slobber, drool, rant.....

T-plates are provided in FF&S, amongst others.  Fusion guns are there, they
just aren't space weapons (isn't it the same in T4?).  Virus flawed?  LOL  In
what way?  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:31:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> As far as "Canonicity" goes IMHO it really doesn't exist in role playing. As
> you said, we as the game group/game master/god of all known universes (my
> personal favorite) can decide to use or not use a rule/object/race...ect.

Sure there is, it just isn't chiseled in stone.  There are no enforcers,
either. ;-)

Noone would appreciate it much if it one supplement/adventure Norris was Duke
of Regina and then in a later one, he's a Duke of Antares w/ no mention of
Regina, even though such would probably barely affect the players beyond
making their suspension of disbelief more difficult (at least if they don't
know where Antares and Regina are and who the Duke of Antares is supposed to
be, etc).  If it's something that isn't mutually exclusive, like saying he's
Baron Yori, then it's another matter.  Even something like that might be
described as a quibble.  But having one source say Norris employs and enjoys
the association with a psionic aide and then having another say that he hates
all psionics would be very distasteful, to say the least.
Now exand this to cover other "historical events" of the timeline and
technological assumptions, etc etc.

Of course, noone is bound to follow anything that official support would
assume, be it technological assumptions, "historical events," and
personalities.  Norris could simply have stayed an operative of INI and his
older brother doesn't bite the big one.  Hows that for an Alternate Universe?
;-)  The FFW goes alot worse, since Norris' big bro might not remove
Santanocheev, and/or believe a similar philosophy, etc.  Noone is bound to
follow what "officially" follows, but there should be an eye to previously
published material.  If it's disliked, it doesn't have to be followed, after
all.  We're not slaves to whatever is "official," though some of us might
enjoy following the developments of an official campaign setting, adapting
them to our own games.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 17:02:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Dom Mooney "ranted, slobbered, and drooled":
> 
> > But TNE wasn't consistent! The M-Drive was different, there weren't any
> > fusion guns, Virus was flawed... rant, slobber, drool, rant.....
> 
> T-plates are provided in FF&S, amongst others.  Fusion guns are there, they
> just aren't space weapons (isn't it the same in T4?).  Virus flawed?  LOL  In
> what way?  ;-)
> 
Three possible answers:

1.  It failed in its designed purpose:  to make the galaxy safe for
Lucan's Imperium.

2.  It failed to "breed true", as evidenced by the many "flavors" of
Virus documented in _Survival Margin_.

3.  Its...creators werrrre...imperfect.  Therefore,
_it_...iiis...imperfect.  (From the course material of "Computer Logic
101", Jim Kirk School of Programming.)

> Gary

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 23:20:04 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies

On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:07:29 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Fw: Space1999: OT:  Kubrick dies

>>> Stanley Kubrick, director of 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY ( a seminal influence on
>>> Space:1999), died today at the age of 70.

>>Thats a surprise.  I presume this means his Eyes Wide Shut project, which
>>he's been working on for years, won't ever be released.

According to WCBS 880AM NYC, "Eyes Wide Shut" is in the can, and
will be released this summer.

Also off topic, but baseball fans will want to know that the line
from "Mrs Robinson" has, regrettably, come true:

"...Joltin' Joe has left and gone away..."

The announcement was made at a bit after 08:00 Eastern Standard
Time.  No cause of death was given.  It would be my guess that it
is complications related to his illness earlier this year.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:37:40 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: New Spaceport Completed

According to MSNBC, NASA and Lockheed Martin
Corp. announced Friday the completion of a new
space flight center.

- -- quote --
A small "spaceport" prototype, the 30-acre center
is dramatically different from other launch sites. 

"This center is designed to allow us to service
and launch the X-33 from one spot, with a ground
crew of fewer than 50 people," said NASA's Gene
Austin. 
- -- end quote --

One step closer to a standard Class Y spaceport.
Supposedly the center will cut the cost of
placing something in orbit from $10000/pound
to $1000/pound.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:44:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) writes:
>>My upcoming programs for GT (a Metator rewrite to fit the GT rules) will
>>also do this.
>
>If you by this mean GURPS Vehivled 2ed on computer I'd like to know when
>it
>will be done and what it will cost.

It's in the pipe.  Would you buy a Mac to use it? :-)

But first I'll get Metator finished. Expanded system generation, using all
rules from First In, World Builders Handbook, Scouts, and Real Life (but
probably not all at the same time).
>
>(I'm joking here, no sane person could possibly plan to do GURPS Vehicles
>on comuter unless bankrolled by SJ-gam,es).

After the last year, I'm no longer sane.  Stay tuned.  GTV (GURPS
Traveller Vehicles) is in the works, too.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 23:47:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous T4 Questions

On 08 Mar, revtks <revtks@apex2000.net> wrote:

> So, a PD turret is a good thing to have around :)  Thanks to
> Swordworlder, I now have a copy of BL in my hot little hands,
> yet I've run into a bit more confusion.  There seems to be no
> specific reference to PD weapons.  Are they allowed to engage
> multiple targets?  Specifically, how are PD turrets handled?
> To be effective, I would think that a single turret would be
> firing on a number of incoming missiles each turn.  (I know
> the answers should be obvious, but without a reference I must ask :)

BL does not handle PD turrets as such.

The PD design adopted on Andy's FFS2 spreadsheet uses the overpowering
rule on p18 to improve the rate of fire and thus the "to hit" roll.
In BL terms the number of diff mods ignored. Base ROF is 50, so
ROF 250 is equivalent to -1, ROF 500 is -2 (I'd suggest 200 and 800
in T4 terms.) The trick is to use batteries to overpower the weapon
to smooth out the peak power demand.

The PD lasers of T4/FFS2/MCS are not quite so significant in TNE/FFS/BL.
The reason for this is the missiles.
TNE does not have thruster plates, so the missiles are big.

A missile turret in High Guard was 1 std, could fire 3 missiles/turn
and had a total 12 missiles. Each missile could pull 6G for 6 turns.

A missile turret in BL is 3std, can fire 20 missiles/turn and has
a total of 2 missiles (or 6std and 5 missiles). Each missile
can pull 6G for 1 turn.

T4 is somewhere between the two. Thruster plate missiles are big but
run forever. HEPlaR missiles can be small and pull 40G for 1 turn.

So you don't get the large waves of missiles in TNE/FFS/BL.

Another problem is that the lasers are too powerful to be PD weapons.
Something much smaller would still kill any missile that it hit.

Finally, the warships presented in BL pull 3-6G and the standard
missiles just aren't going to get near them.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:59:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)

On 08 Mar, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:

<snip>

> One last one I'll mention is insanity.  This is especially relevant to
> sophont baddies, of course, but can apply to animals and such as well.

I always thought of insanity more as the ultimate weapon.

Q: What is worse than your character being eaten by Great Cuthulu?
A: Having the character who survived to gibber.

;-)

After all death is just roll 14d6.

My vote for the nastiest monster - don't overlook the tribe of
stone age teady bears. After all, the PCs are probably equipped
like Imperial Stormtroopers - and we all know what happened to them.

:-)


Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 23:48:29 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Debate material

On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:20:32 -0500, "Joseph Kimball"
<HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:

>Jeff, I got the following  errors when trying to email you directly at
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com.
>jzeitlin is undeliverable
>550 Access denied
>I will try to post the compiled list to my Web page tonight.

I'll need a URL, in that case; the only reason I can think of for
you to get that message is that my ISP thinks your ISP (ihc.com)
is a spamhaus.  I'll check with them tonight.  Before going
through the hassle of webifying it, try sending it to
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com; that account forwards to my
cyburban account.

*****Note: I tried to send this to your account directly; I got
the same error, 550, "Mailbox is disabled for this recipient".  I
would check with your ISP as to the cause of this error, as I
will with mine.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:53:10 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>Now, imagine this concept mated to High Guard. If you don't have enough
>combat units to engage every enemy combat asset, the unengaged ones
>get to go play hell with your support units. A fighter screen, even if it
>can't do ship-killing attacks, can engage an enemy unit enough to keep
>it away from the support units...but the enemy could always bring a bigger
>fighter screen.
>
>I haven't worked out optional rules for this yet, but wanted to present
>the 
>idea to the lists for comment.

I like it.

Could you work out a way of including 2D maneuver (or a good imitation)? 
Some way of gaming out "then de Leon's Cruiser Squadron broke through the
enemy line and attacked the rear"?  

Better yet, could you simplify High Guard to Imperium levels? Or even
better, reduce Trillion Credit Squadron to War at Sea complexity?  (Not
joking - I'd like a fast playable Traveller game.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 18:55:09 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes 

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>One of the better ads for the campaign was "vote for a ballpark where
>homeruns aren't measured in feet, but fathoms!"  After these ads began
>running, and outraged letter showed up in the Chronicle, decrying the
>introduction of *metric* measurements to the Grand Old Game of Baseball!
>
>ObTrav: A misunderstanding of terms lands the characters in deep water..
>:)

And Doug's jokes sink to new depths... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:03:34 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

> This will give you a good idea of the ratio of open,
> common spaces to stateroom spaces on real ships
> that coop people up for a week or two at a time.

> Notice how over half the ships public spaces are
> common spaces...

> makes Paul's and Michaels ship look cramped as
> a Greyhound in comparison...

Agreed... I'd like to dedicate more space to common
areas but the stateroom size requirements would
make that hard to accomplish.  I've toyed with the
idea of making some percentage of the passenger
staterooms into double occupancy rooms to free up
some space for public areas...  Anyone have any
ideas?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:06:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: GT : Solomani Free Trader from Alien Module 6

No, no, no.  This is won't do at all.  Where are its _legs_, man?

Gamera rules!

Kenji


On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Craig Barnett wrote:

> 400ton Solomani Free Trader (Type SA), Tech Level 10
> 
> Crew:
>  1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation/Commo/Sensor, 1 x Engineering,
>  2 x Stewards/Medical
>  Total Crew = 5
> 
> Specifications:
>  400ton Good Streamlined Hull, Sealed, Normal
>  Compartmentalisation, Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard
>  (Default) Hull Materials, Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD
>  4, +9 size mod, 63.9731 MCr, 30780 HP, 1 Unhardened Basic
>  Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 30 Maneuver, 12 Powered Jump,
>  80 Jump Fuel (40 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to
>  process), 15 Staterooms (5 Crew, 10 High Passage, 0 Middle
>  Passage), 142.5 Cargo, 1 x 0.5 tons capacity Space Dock
>  (Air/Raft), 2 turret(s)
> 
> Performance:
>  Jump 2, EMass 447.13 tons, LMass 1161.63 tons (Estimated carried
>  mass = 2 tons), EMass 343.13 tons (less fuel), LMass 1057.63
>  tons (less fuel), Air Speed 1747 mph (2811 km/h), Acceleration -
>  3.35G Empty, 1.29G Loaded, 4.37G Empty (less Fuel), 1.42G Loaded
>  (less Fuel)
> 
> 
> --
> Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:25:20 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Would anyone have any of the following:

Would anyone have any of the following and wish to part with them (in 
Mint/Near Mint Condition)?
Challenge#54-76 (for 2$ each or less)
Traveller Chronicle #1, #3
Traveller Digest #15
101 Robots
High Passage#1
Reply direct,
Boris Cibic
kafka47@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 17:39:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

Paul Schirf wrote:

> Agreed... I'd like to dedicate more space to common
> areas but the stateroom size requirements would
> make that hard to accomplish.  I've toyed with the
> idea of making some percentage of the passenger
> staterooms into double occupancy rooms to free up
> some space for public areas...  Anyone have any
> ideas?

Recall, that, at least in FFS2, stateroom volumes _include_ common
space. Look at some of the shots of those staterooms..not enough room to
swing a kitten, much less a cat. ;-)

Plus luxury ships, vs. free trader tramps will have considerable extra
space given over to commons. It's just hard to make a 1000 t ship into a
luxury liner...that's closer in size to a luxury yacht...

Liners, IMHO _start_ at 10,000t and go up...they're BIG ships! Ever see
a cruise ship up close?

Of course, under the rules that 1000t ship will never make a dime of
profit...:-(




- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 17:53:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Stateroom size (RL reference)

I remembered, that I sucked down a image of a stateroom from the
Carnival site, it was very convenient, illustrating how much bigger
their cabins are compared to their competitors.

These have a fresher two bunks and some storage, in 187 ft^2, which is
17 m^2. They say their competitors are 117 ft^2 for the same (they use
twin beds, vs full beds in the Carnival cabins), which is roughly 11
m^2. 

Lets pretend that these accomodations include 2.5M ceiling heights,
giving a volume of 28 m^2 for the small rooms, and 43 m^3 for the large.
FFS2 has small staterooms at 28 and large at 56 m^3.

These deckplans are just about right on...which, unfortunately means,
that the FFS rules saying that common space is included in the stateroom
size means that the staterooms are quite cramped, or that common spaces
are quite cramped. :-(

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:49:15 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Vehicles on Computer

> If you by this mean GURPS Vehivled 2ed on computer I'd like to know when it
> will be done and what it will cost.

I am working on one now.  
I have no clue when it will be done.
I have no clue if I will charge for it.
 
> (I'm joking here, no sane person could possibly plan to do GURPS Vehicles
> on comuter unless bankrolled by SJ-gam,es).

Who said I was sane?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:22:49 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

Yeap... We're talking the same language.  I think one of the real problems
is a SINGLE occupancy vs. double occupancy issue.

Passengers require 4 tons of stateroom / common space.   On the first draft
of my deckplans I assumed roughly 2.5 tons of stateroom space plus 1.5 tons
to common areas.  If I drop this to 2 tons to the stateroom and 2 to common
areas I can squeeze out a few more tons of *fun space*. If I were to assume
that two PASSENGERS could share a 2.5 ton or 2 ton stateroom provided that
they are still given the 4 tons of total space I'd end up with deckplans
that look a LOT more like the Carnival ships.

The only issue is that this doesn't appear to be allowed under a strict rule
review.  Has this problem been addressed in any canon source?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #260
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 261



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
Re: New Spaceport Completed
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
Quick "First Impression" review of Letters of Marque deck plans
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
June bugs
World Seeds 8
Re: Canonicity
Re: June bugs
Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: June bugs
Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: the nastiest monster
[OT]Fw:      Top five
Re: June bugs
Re: Lensmen series
Re: Trenco and Zabriska
Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)
Re: New Spaceport Completed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:21:27 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> I remembered, that I sucked down a image of a stateroom from the
> Carnival site, it was very convenient, illustrating how much bigger
> their cabins are compared to their competitors.
> 
> These have a fresher two bunks and some storage, in 187 ft^2, which is
> 17 m^2. They say their competitors are 117 ft^2 for the same (they use
> twin beds, vs full beds in the Carnival cabins), which is roughly 11
> m^2.
> 
> Lets pretend that these accomodations include 2.5M ceiling heights,
> giving a volume of 28 m^2 for the small rooms, and 43 m^3 for the large.
> FFS2 has small staterooms at 28 and large at 56 m^3.
> 
> These deckplans are just about right on...which, unfortunately means,
> that the FFS rules saying that common space is included in the stateroom
> size means that the staterooms are quite cramped, or that common spaces
> are quite cramped. :-(
> 
Now you see why even my warships (at least the larger ones) include
individual small staterooms for crew and junior officers, large
individual staterooms for senior personnel, and a fair amount of space
for crew lounges.  I believe that improving the habitability of ships
improves their combat effectiveness, in the long run.

Of course, the dedication of space on warships to "luxuries" such as
crew lounges and individual staterooms for all crewmwmbers is yet
another way in which AuricTech earns its name.... ;-) 

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:34:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

Where is it located?  My dad, who works at the Cape had said weeks ago that
this would not bode well for employees at the Cape.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:20:11 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Of course, under the rules that 1000t ship will never make a dime of
> profit...:-(

Something to test GT:Far Trader with.  ;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:00:56 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> These deckplans are just about right on...which, unfortunately means,
> that the FFS rules saying that common space is included in the stateroom
> size means that the staterooms are quite cramped, or that common spaces
> are quite cramped. :-(
> 
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group


WEEELLLL, I've always disagreed with the stateroom size. So, I, way deep
down in the undistributed deck plans, simply assume that those numbers
in HG, FFS, FFS2 etc. are MINIMUMS. My assumption is that these numbers
are the minimum size for Medium and High passage, as well as crew
staterooms. As long as the cubic area and tonnage is accounted for
staterooms can be any size you want, that's why I typically leave quite
a bit of "empty space" when I design a ship, then just allocate that
space to common areas, over size staterooms etc. Personaly I think these
should be flexible in size anyway, and common araeas accounted for as a
seperate item. THat way a yaught cna be designed with oversized bed
rooms, large dinning rooms, and even dance floors. Not to mention
"luxury" liners.

If a passenger is Jumping from one world to the next on business they'll
put up with cramped quarters in a free trader. If, however, they're
taking a multi-world Grand Tour, for say 2-3 months, they're going to
want elbo room! 

Then there are the "family" ships or nomads that are part of Traveller
mythos in some areas. For these you really need to be able to build
appartments, as opposed to just sleeping quarters.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:29:14 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Quick "First Impression" review of Letters of Marque deck plans

Being an advid deck plan collector I picked these up when I saw them at
the Gamestore. 

They are published by Holistic Design Inc. and are actually for use with
their own game systems, Noble Armada and Fadin Suns. However, they carry
an approved for Traveller tag.

Included in the package are 5 seperate ships. A "League Sentury escort",
a "Decados Mantis frigate", an "al-Malik Odyssey explorer, a "Hawkwood
Hornet frigate" and a "Luxury Liner". The only stats included are for
the Luxury Liner and these are for the Holistic games, no Traveller
conversions are included.

Overall the deck plans are of decent quality, printed on semi-gloss
paper, black on white. The deck plan artwork is passable, if basic,
quality. The interesting thing about it is that the symbols used
indecate the location of crew personnel, not only the "duty stations"
are marked but staterooms are designated as well. This could prove a
plus for boarding actiosn, and I assume that is why this was done.

The two biggest complaints I have are the lack of grid or hex lines,
requireing the need to measure movement when using these plans. Second
is the lack of statistics. I have to assume that the 4 sets of stats not
included are in the 'parent' game books. However, since they are labled
as Approved for Traveller, amention on convestion would have been nice.

Over all, at a price of $14.95 (US) they probably aren't for MOST
Traveller players. Still it's nice to see some company making an effort
to bring back this type of game aid.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:53:29 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

<Bruce Johnson wrote>

>Recall, that, at least in FFS2, stateroom volumes _include_ common
>space. Look at some of the shots of those staterooms..not enough room to
>swing a kitten, much less a cat. ;-)

I have come up with a bit of kludge that works for me.  When designing a
liner, determine the total amount of space you will dedicate to passenger
areas.  (Public and private)  Allocate this space entirely to standard size
staterooms on the design sheet. (28m^3 and 56m^3)  This allows you to
calculate profit loss information.

Now, when designing the deckplans, you divide the number of staterooms in
half.   So if you had 1000 small staterooms on the design sheet, you will
now place only 500 on the deckplans.  The remaining space is allocated to
shops, clubs, lounges, etc.

In effect you have doubled the price on the remaining staterooms using a
handwave to the 'half of the space is dedicated to common areas' rule.  This
keeps staterooms at a reasonable size, and reflects the fact that luxury
liner tickets would cost more than a simple commuter ticket.  (And in game
play allows characters to purchase a ticket at the standard prices, thus
preserving game balance.)

Using this system you can design profitable ships, which have all the
amenities of actual cruise liners.
(I came up with this by using stats from the QE2 I found in a magazine, it
listed passenger capacities and number of shops, clubs, etc.)

>Liners, IMHO _start_ at 10,000t and go up...they're BIG ships! Ever see
>a cruise ship up close?

I tend to agree...

Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:22:45 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

<<snip>>
The nastiest NPC(monster) was a lone Aslan Hunter armed with a large bore 
hunting rifle, in his own turf so to speak. He almost did my all players 
in, I thought he would get killed pretty quick, but it was a case of right 
time, place and most importantly skill(s).

These same players had survived major starship battles, Aslan planetary 
invasion, and hired assassins. But a lone hunter random encounter almost 
succeeded. Is that not right Jimmy?!

When the first shot was fired by the Aslan Hunter one PC went down, almost 
dead, every shot he fired meant one more PC was ready for the trauma unit.

Talk about the a scene from the Three Stooges or the Keystone Cops. The 
PC's were better armed and armored too.

They were to scared to expose themselves lest they join the trauma unit 
comrades. So he got to move around and do some "shopping" for the "right" 
target. If only I had read "White Feather" before that encounter the Aslan 
would have gotten them all.<G>


Sinbad Sam
"Black Curtain" Rod Holder...
AI Virus inferior races(Aslan, Humaniti, Kkree, Droyne) Interfacer
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
sinbad@ignore.hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:10:10 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

>In Imperium, Fighter Squadrons could match against an enemy ship,
>serving the same screening (and occaisonal effective attack) role as a
>scout or destroyer. I assumed that each Imperium squadron counter
>represented a good number of fighters, as the carrier could only carry
>three of them.

Why would a battleship captain stop and engage a squadron of fighters,
which can't hurt him and may not even be able to catch up with him, and
ignore more high-value targets?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:20:48 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: June bugs

Speaking of june bugs...when I was a child I lived in a small
town in the country. For a summer pastime, we would try to catch
june bugs and tie a string to them, then turn them loose to fly
around, while we held the string to keep them from flying away. 
It was great fun the few times it worked.

Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
responsibility for children for an adventure?
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:20:54 -0500
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: World Seeds 8

More world seeds:

43.  The government has strict control over agriculture, food
processing, and food distribution, with stiff penalties for
unapproved activity in any of these areas.

44.  An ancient civilization left remains that appear to surpass
known technology.  Although various documents have been found,
progress in understanding and translating them has been very
slow, and only a few isolated words are known. The known
documents do not appear to contain technical information, and the
pace of archaeological research is glacial.

45. There is a rigid caste system, composed of Managers,
philosophers, warriors, merchants, technicians, and serfs.

46. The dominant religion is highly intellectual.  People offer
to have their lives evaluated by the priests who apply complex
systems of evaluation, and offer their counsel and advice for
improvement. Careful inquiry, logical debate, and even research
are important parts of priestly duties.  The best priests are
excellent theoretical and practical psychologists.

47. The society is based on small, tightly knit villages. Even
larger cities are composed of distinct neighborhoods. Villages
interact only through designated spokesmen, and inquiries about
the inner workings of another village are regarded as intrusive.

48. An intelligent and able ruler who rose to power through
rebellion and bloody warfare was appalled by the carnage and
destruction of the battle that conquered his last rival.  He did
not renounce his position, but became a convert to a non-violent,
humanitarian religion and is attempting to practice its
principles as a ruler.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:38:58 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

Gary....less coffee PLEASE.  I meant "canonicity" to be just as you
said...carved in stone and enforced.  In RPG, it would be too stiffling.
Obviously if I were writing something for publication I would stick as close
as I could to the "official rules."  But, if I wanted to write an adventure
for just my own little group and wanted to make Norris Duke of Grabbooty, a
cross dressing vargr (a personal fantasy of Jesse's I think!) then I could,
and no canon rules can stop me.  Course I'd have some trouble getting it
published.

In the case of a RPG such as Traveller, canonicity is moot (not the senate).
There have been so many versions and stages of it that one has the choice of
picking a version and sticking with those rules only, or actually trying to
grab what they concider the best from the various versions to make their own
"house rules."  Jesse hates when I do that but he's a smeg head anyway.    ;-P

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:23:20 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: June bugs

>Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
>responsibility for children for an adventure?

Children??  Ack!  I think we've found the winner for nastiest NPC/Monster :)


Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
- -----Original Message-----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:26:12 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

>It's in the pipe.  Would you buy a Mac to use it? :-)
<snip>
>After the last year, I'm no longer sane.  Stay tuned.  GTV (GURPS
>Traveller Vehicles) is in the works, too.

This is a huge ask, I know, but would you be willing to either convert
your code to Java, or provide the source code so that someone else
(possibly me) can convert it to Java ?

That way, we can all use it and ignore these silly machine
dependencies

( at least until Linux becomes the uber-operating system and runs on
all platforms in the Universe, which will be just in time for Virus to
come along..... ) <grin>

Of course, this is just me being lazy, I could try to write one from
scratch, but I'm an OOAP and re-use is paramount, even if it's only
algorithm re-use !









>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:49:25 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: June bugs

|
|Children??  Ack!  I think we've found the winner for nastiest NPC/Monster
:)


There are enough rugrats crawling around my house, I don't a shipload at my
game session!  Although I've never had one completely obliterate a character
I _have_ found colorings in my books before =:-o


  ==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
_______________________________
               www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:17:16 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

>( at least until Linux becomes the uber-operating system and runs on
>all platforms in the Universe, which will be just in time for Virus to
>come along..... ) <grin>

    You know, that could be why Virus hit everyone so hard.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 23:04:35 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I always liked to send Middies out for 5 fathoms of  water line.
>
> Be careful. If you are in port and the middie has certain sorts
> civilian experience he's going to come back with one sort or another of
> pipe used for house construction or sprinkler systems.

Naw, Middies aren't that smart, being they are Zeros in training.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:20:13 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

>> High speed footage later proved that the planet was host to a
strange form
>> of flying insect possessing an extremely hard armoured carapace,
which
>> could fly at extremely high-- yet still subsonic-- velocities.
>
>The thing is, you gotta wonder _why_ that little bug evolved such a
high
>speed lifestyle...what's it running from...?

Grendels on speed ?

Love that as a way of building up the nasty though. Give the players
trouble with what turns out to be the _prey_ creature, and let them
speculate for a while on what the _predator_ looks like.

Did this once too well, the players were so spooked at the idea of
something eating the creature they had so much trouble with, they
lifted off and tried to have the planet declared a Red Zone. But of
course, "the Company" didn't agree ("What dangerous predator ? Show me
a picture of one. You can't ? You have no evidence of one other than
that the herbivore was dangerous ? Incompetent fools !!" ) and sent
settlers.....

BTW, my vote for nastiest nasty is Christopher Rowley's "Vang"
Especially the Battlemaster form.

IIRC, the "heroes" _never_ beat this nasty, they just finally found it
after it had committed suicide once it had determined the rest of it's
race had been destroyed, having chased it all over the universe,
always being two steps behind.

The "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" phrase is even
more appropriate for Vang than for Aliens. In the first Vang novel
 "The Vang", which was not their first appearance, but if I start
talking about all the wonderful idea's in "Starhammer" I won't stop,
just read it ! )  the only reason human civilization survived first
contact is that the Military form of the Vang made one fundamental
mistake, it assumed the population was native and therefore did not
look for, and immediately seize, the starport.

Even so, it was a close run thing, with the Vang almost making it to
the next jump-capable ship that  entered system.

Of course my second nastiest baddy would be a toss up between Niven's
Slavers and Tnuctpin (sp?)
as shown in "The Sea Statue" and one of the Man-Kzin war books, and
"World of Ptavs", or perhaps getting on the wrong side of a Pak
Protector from a different clan/race ( "Protector" )

Add in Saberhagen's Berserkers, along with the little machines
designed to _hunt_ berserkers.....

If you really want to be mean though, the absolute worst creature is a
nano-machine culture taken to the extremes described in Greg Bear's
"Blood Music" .

It can't really be fought, it isn't evil or implacably hostile to
other life-forms like the Vang, it's just different....

Imagine, a culture of such creatures (or even a less inimicable Vang
culture ) requesting an Imperial ambassador as a host.....

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:06:24 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: [OT]Fw:      Top five

>The Top 14 Special Powers of the Young Darth Vader
>
>
>14> Using the Force, young Darth could unhook a bra on the
>other side of the planet.
>13> Could hack into Death Star mainframe to vaporize his violin
>teacher's house.
>12> The power to cause volcanic pimple eruptions on the faces
>of his mortal enemies.
>11> Could make Obi-Wan Kenobi pee his pants by sneaking in
>his room and putting his hand in warm water.
>10> Ability to sweet-talk girls into "rubbing his helmet."
>9> For a white kid, he did a pretty damn good James Earl Jones
>impression.
>8> Astounding dodge ball prowess combined with "take no
>prisoners" attitude resulted in many a beheaded opponent.
>7> The old Jedi "your lunch money is mine" trick.
>6> Ability to emit a powerful protective force-field after
>only one bean burrito.
>5> Won the high school talent show every year by making the
>vice principal writhe in pain.
>4> Ability to activate "Trouser Saber" at will.
>3> The uncanny ability to make all the hottest babes believe
>that through the constant application of love and
>understanding *they* can change him.
>
>2> "You don't need to see my I.D.  You know I'm old enough to
>buy beer."
>
>and Topfive.com's Number 1 Special Power of the Young Darth Vader...
>
>1> Pasty skin + jet-black wardrobe + intense aura of impending
>doom = Goth babe magnet!
>
>
>[           This list copyright 1999 by Chris White            ]
>[  The Top 5 List   top5@gmbweb.com <mailto:top5@gmbweb.com>
>http://www.topfive.com <http://www.topfive.com>   ]
>[   Do not forward, publish, broadcast, or use in any manner   ]
>[    without crediting "The Top 5 List at www.topfive.com
><http://www.topfive.com> "     ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:06:59 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: Re: June bugs

Actually, I always thought that the movie "Mercury Rising"
would make a great adventure, however, i think that my
players would just drug the kid into submission or stuff him
in a low berth or something

revtks wrote:
> 
> >Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
> >responsibility for children for an adventure?
> 
> Children??  Ack!  I think we've found the winner for nastiest NPC/Monster :)
> 
> Thad K. Sneed
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> "Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
> "Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."
> 
> tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
> -----Original Message-----

- -- 
The AK-47, when you Absolutely have to kill 
every mother#*%&? in the room, except no substitute
  --from the movie Jackie Brown
christopher pratt
valen@gatecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:45:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

In mail you write:

>> If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print 
> again.
>> The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
>
> Wait a minute, EACH book is $15 ?!?!?  I really hope I'm reading this
> wrong, something that short shouldn't be that much!  BTW, the Skylark
> series should also be read.

1. They aren't that short.
2. They are in Trade paperback size, on *good* paper (possibly acid
   free, I don't recall)
3. They include the illustrations from the original Fantasy Press
   editions. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:59:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trenco and Zabriska

In mail you write:

> Doh!  That'll teach me to read me books properly!  G:Lensman doesn't use
> UPPs at all - it uses GURPS' normal text description.  But, for those who
> don't have it, GT contains a page showing how to convert GURPS planet 'text'
> to Traveller UPPs (page 123)...  So I set out to do a quick and dirty
> conversion job using CT-LBB6 (Scouts), GT and G:Lensman.
>
> Anyway, the nearest I could get for Trenco is X-5A000A-0, with a Navy
> (Lensman Patrol) base.  Atmosphere is actually described as 'nitrogenous
> hydride', being gaseous during the day and falling as 'exactly fortyseven
> feet and five inches' of liquid precipitate overnight, only to evapourate
> within minutes of dawn.  There are other effects but I won't list 'em unless
> someone asks...

Uhmmm. Shouldn't that be X-5A500A-0? After all, it *does* have a
"fluid", even if it isn't water. And said fluid covers 50% of the
surface (the nightside)...

> Zabriska (aka A-Zabriskae II) approximates to X-300000-0 with nothing to
> recommend it other than a complete lack of... well, everything really.

Well, that's part of the fun. The players might have to locate
something hidden on the planet. Or hide it in such a way that they can
find it again. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:10:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)

In mail you write:

> My vote for the nastiest monster - don't overlook the tribe of
> stone age teady bears. After all, the PCs are probably equipped
> like Imperial Stormtroopers - and we all know what happened to them.
>
> :-)

Nah, that's *way* too easy. Let them run into Hokas instead!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:31:27 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:37:40 -0600  "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>
>One step closer to a standard Class Y spaceport.
>Supposedly the center will cut the cost of
>placing something in orbit from $10000/pound
>to $1000/pound.
=========================

Cut the cost?  

Hmmmm, 

snicker, 

chuckle, 

snicker, 

ha, 

haha, 

hahaha, 

WAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! <stumble, trip, fall off chair, spill IBC on keyboard, curse loudly>

<rant mode>

Sorry I couldn't help myself there.  Reduce cost??  They must be joking. 
Anyone who could take a prototype spacecraft, call it a line model, and
then use it to loft satellites and space station parts while lugging
along a crew of several along with associated life support gear, run by a
government agency, is nuts if they think they can get costs that low
without subsidy, which is false cost reduction anyway.  Lofting sats and
SS parts with the shuttle is like moving your couch with a Rolls Royce. 
I am so darn sick and tired of being told what a great job NASA is doing
cutting costs and making space access a reality.  It won't really happen
until we engineers and other real folk get off our collective @$$#$ and
do it privately!!!!  GRRRRRR!!!!!!  Huh?!  What!?  No, not the needle,
not that, no, nono,
nooooooo......................snorrrrrrrrrrrrre....................

</rant mode>

Sorry folks.  Seriously, thats utterly absurd.  I'll cloak and go back to
lurking now.

JimC
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------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 262



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: June bugs
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)
Re: New Spaceport Completed
Children (was: June bugs)
Re: June bugs
Invasion of Colchis II
nasty monsters and planets
for your interest
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:56:00 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

James W. Lindsay writes:
"Sure messes with the PC's minds, though (until they find 
out what they're up against).  Imagine the wasted ammo 
trying vainly to shoot at a target that is unknowingly no 
larger than the bullets being fired... the first image that 
comes to mind is the scene from Predator (you know the one)."

	If it bleeds, we can kill it.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:34:17 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Evyn MacDude wrote:

> 
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > > I always liked to send Middies out for 5 fathoms of  water line.
> >
> > Be careful. If you are in port and the middie has certain sorts
> > civilian experience he's going to come back with one sort or another of
> > pipe used for house construction or sprinkler systems.
> 
> Naw, Middies aren't that smart, being they are Zeros in training.
> 

	ZITs?   =)

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:43:00 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: June bugs

Oh my, does that bring back memories.

JimC

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:20:48 -0500 Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
writes:
>Speaking of june bugs...when I was a child I lived in a small
>town in the country. For a summer pastime, we would try to catch
>june bugs and tie a string to them, then turn them loose to fly
>around, while we held the string to keep them from flying away. 
>It was great fun the few times it worked.
>
>Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
>responsibility for children for an adventure?
>  

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:35:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>In Imperium, Fighter Squadrons could match against an enemy ship,
>serving the same screening (and occaisonal effective attack) role as a
>scout or destroyer. <snip>

Why would a battleship captain stop and engage a squadron of fighters,
which can't hurt him and may not even be able to catch up with him, and
ignore more high-value targets?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, remember that the 6G, Agility-6 battleship is something you didn't
see during the First through Nth interstellar wars. You simply can't pack
that much drives and power plant onto a hull with any appreciable armor
belt at those tech levels*. The fighters will be able to catch the battleship.

Why not just ignore them? These rules (if they turn out interesting and
workable) would assume some penalty for ignoring an enemy ship.
Some possibilities that come to mind:

1) Time and Distance. These fights take place over the span of a solar
system (or a chunk thereof). The Battleship captain isn't stopping, he's
hunting. Fighters found him, and warned targets away while they lead
him astray. The Battleship captain can choose not to shoot at the fighters,
but it will take him twenty minutes (a High Guard turn) at least to find
another target - while that fighter squadron dogs him, warning better
targets away. This is submarines in space, not X-wing dogfights...these
fights take time and distance.

2) Sensor limitations. You are 90% sure that you're being painted by
a squadron of fightercraft. It's also possible that you're being lined up on
by a cruiser's spinal mount. It will take you 20 minutes (one HG turn)
to be sure, and that's time you have to spend maneuvering to or away
from contact. Next turn you can break off from the surviving fighters
and probe again for a break in the enemy line.

2) "Battle Stations": ships behave differently when prosecuting (or being 
prosecuted by) a contact. They maneuver, evade, don't use their full
acceleration for straight-line, distance-eating movement. They concentrate
more of their sensor assets on contermeasures and jamming, less on
acquiring leads on new contacts. If a Battleship doesn't want to tangle
with a fighter squadron, it must disengage in time-consuming combat
mode - because if it points its nose towards the retreating transports
and thrusts straight-line and flat out, you could hit it with a dumb
missile and a pocket calculator. 

This makes me think of a High Guard battle taking place over massive
areas of the solar system, with each match-up being a few minutes of the
twenty-minute turn. Your light units - scouts and destroyers and such - 
find the enemy, fix his location. If you have more units, your light screening
units will allow you to meet him on your terms, allow you to have units
"reveal" themselves so your noncombat units can slip away (for a while).
If you have fewer units, your lack of sensor platforms puts you at a
disadvantage - he will locate your ships with his scouts, and choose where
his battleship strikes.

Walt Smith
- -------------------------
*At TL12, Maneuver-6, Power-6 and Armor-12 take up 66% of the hull. If you
need to boost the power plant up to Power-9 to juice the weapons *and*
get an agility of 6, we're talking 79% of the hull, before bridge or jump
drives and fuel.
At TL15, a Maneuver-6, Power-9, Armor-15 ship has only used 51% of
its hull before bridge and jump. That's a massive difference...especially
considering how much bigger a TL15 battleship can be than its TL12
ancestor.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:05:55 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

"Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com> writes:
>Agreed... I'd like to dedicate more space to common
>areas but the stateroom size requirements would
>make that hard to accomplish.  I've toyed with the
>idea of making some percentage of the passenger
>staterooms into double occupancy rooms to free up
>some space for public areas...  Anyone have any
>ideas?

Remember that stateroom volume includes a share of common space, so the
volume of the actual stateroom would be less than the 4 dtons specified.
Also include some extra modules (theatres and the like).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:09:00 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure hooks from Real Life(tm)

misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca wrote:

> > Naw, Middies aren't that smart, being they are Zeros in training.
> >
>
>         ZITs?   =)

Now that is one I wish I had thought of.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:10:29 -0500 
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

	I think there may be several developments on the horizon that don't
bode well for employees at the Cape.  We may be on the cusp of an era in
space travel that doesn't involved thousands of support people for each
launch.  Several programs are within 18-24 months of attempting to launch
humans into space using re-usable vehicles that only require a handful of
support personnel.  The most notable at this point would be the Roton, which
they claim will fly in about 18 months.  IMHO, in the area of manned flight,
NASA seems to be too focused on large, heavy lift vehicles.  They turned
down the Delta Clipper and went with the Lockheed design which was totally
unproven and would require large developent costs.  Granted, the Delta
Clipper may not have been suitable for lifting large ISS components, but it
would have provided much cheaper access to space, which I feel should be
NASA's current goal.  I love the idea of the ISS, but it may be the hammer
that drives the final nail into the coffin for NASA.

		Alan

>Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:34:47 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed
>
>Where is it located?  My dad, who works at the Cape had said weeks ago that
>this would not bode well for employees at the Cape.
>
>- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:14:48 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Children (was: June bugs)

Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> writes:
>Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
>responsibility for children for an adventure?

Yup.

Did that with a group of high school boys a few years ago, when running a
T2k adventure ("Castle by the Sea"). There these rough tough mercenaries
were, sneaking through the caves, when the lead chap feels a tug on his
pant leg. He _nearly_ opens up, then stops and checks: it's a two-year-old
boy. 

It was fun, watching them try to sneak a pack of kids out. Also brought
out some really good role-playing, as opposed to just dice-rolling
fighting, which is why I did it. Years later the chaps still talk about
that game; I think it's one of my best. :-)


I use children in Traveller, too.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:35:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: June bugs

Howdy!

> 
> Speaking of june bugs...when I was a child I lived in a small
> town in the country. For a summer pastime, we would try to catch
> june bugs and tie a string to them, then turn them loose to fly
> around, while we held the string to keep them from flying away. 
> It was great fun the few times it worked.
> 
> Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
> responsibility for children for an adventure?
>   
> 
How about cicadas...they fly on a string pretty well... until the
cat gets them...

Trivia: the cargo capacity of an ordinary cicada is greater than or
equal to the weight of a common firecracker...

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:36:45 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Invasion of Colchis II

In case the message got misdirected:

I am ready to accept fleet bids for the invasion of Colchis II. Interested
parties will bid a TL12 fleet that is capable of:

1. Making a Jump-3 voyage, refueling from gas giants.

2. Neutralizing a MCr20000 defense force, consisting of two 5000tn
ships, two 1000tn ships, twenty 400tn ships and about 100 small craft.
The defenders are built to TL12, use nuclear weapons, and the only
ones jump capable are twelve of the 400tn ships. One of the 5000tn ships
is reportedly operating as a dedicated fighter carrier.

3. Landing an invasion/occupation force on Colchis II (a size 7, atmosphere
6 world). The force consists of 1000 troops and 5000tons of material, and
the troops cannot travel in low berths. If landing is to be performed by
carried craft or part of the fleet, it must be completed in ten trips or less
through atmosphere.

We will be using the same fighter squadron rules as the current Island
Clusters campaign, and the preferred method of resolving the battle
is IRC. Low bidder gets to take the planet, then next lowest if low bidder
fails. Any takers?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:00:01 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: nasty monsters and planets

during my traveller game era I introduced the players to Marion Zimmer
Bradleys "Hunter of the Red Moon" The survivors, like the book decide to
keep coming back for more, once (the PC's) they found out they could a.
have combat. b. might survive. c. get rich.

	I also ran a scenerio where the players were presented with a guarded
solar system. The PC decided they MUST break through the defensive network,
once they got in they realized they really didn't want to be there, but
Star fleet intel told them they had to stay on station until a new guardian
system could be implaced,  
	My favorite scene is after the vulcan science officer had been assimulated
by the intellegent blob monster, the blob surfaced near the group, the
survivers saw bits of clothing in the creature and the captain said:
"Sa'atok! fight it!! You can do it!"
the blob began morphing and the PC saw the face of their friend stuggling
beneath the surface of this creature! Suddenly a hand extending toward the
PC's.
The captain smiled and said. "I'll help pull him free."
....right before the hand pulled him into the creature and assimulated him.
The rest of the PC's transported immediatly to the ship and left the planet.

 Whats worse then a kraken?


A pregnant Kraken!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:05:06 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: for your interest

I just got this email from a scifi mag I subscribe too...

Rowen Atkinson of Black adder and Mr. Bean, is going to do a Dr. Who parody.

any ideas from the gallery on what he do? Can you imagine what he would do?
What black self interest deals would he contrive with the daleks?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:50:50 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

At 09:35 AM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>In Imperium, Fighter Squadrons could match against an enemy ship,
>>serving the same screening (and occaisonal effective attack) role as a
>>scout or destroyer. <snip>
>
>Why would a battleship captain stop and engage a squadron of fighters,
>which can't hurt him and may not even be able to catch up with him, and
>ignore more high-value targets?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Well, remember that the 6G, Agility-6 battleship is something you didn't
>see during the First through Nth interstellar wars. You simply can't pack
>that much drives and power plant onto a hull with any appreciable armor
>belt at those tech levels*. The fighters will be able to catch the battleship.
>
>Why not just ignore them? These rules (if they turn out interesting and
>workable) would assume some penalty for ignoring an enemy ship.
>Some possibilities that come to mind:
>
>1) Time and Distance. These fights take place over the span of a solar
<<snip>>
>
>2) Sensor limitations. You are 90% sure that you're being painted by
<<snip>>
>
>2) "Battle Stations": ships behave differently when prosecuting (or being 
<<snip>>
>
>This makes me think of a High Guard battle taking place over massive
<<snip>>

For a good read on Travelleresque space combat, read the first story (IIRC)
in the second WarWorld book by Jerry Pournelle.  It details the Sauron raid
on Tanith that eventually turned into the "Last Big Battle" of the war the
shattered the First Empire.

The story details differing command theory and strategies.

The Saurons would be an interesting encounter in Traveller.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:51:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

forgive me; but I saw this and HAD to post it (it puts new meaning into
grognard and helps to explain the problems in the gaming hobby...); Seth

Read it and weep:
>
>The people starting college this fall across the nation were born in
>1980.
>
>They have no meaningful recollection of the Reagan era, and don't know he
>had ever been shot.
>
>They were prepubescent when the Persian Gulf War was waged.
>
>Black Monday 1987 is as significant to them as the Great Depression.
>
>There has only been one Pope.
>
>They can only really remember one president.
>
>They were 11 when the Soviet Union broke apart, and do not remember the
>Cold War.
>
>They have never feared a nuclear war.
>
>"The Day After" is a pill to them, not a movie.
>
>CCCP is just a bunch of letters.
>
>They have only known one Germany.
>
>They are too young to remember the Space shuttle blowing up, and
>Tiananmin Square means nothing to them.
>
>They do not know who Moammar Qadafi is.
>
>Their lifetime has always included AIDS.
>
>They never had a Polio or Smallpox shot, and likely, do not know what it
>is.
>
>Bottle caps have not only always been screw off, but have always been
>plastic.
>
>They have no idea what a "church key" top can looks like.
>
>Atari predates them, as do vinyl albums.
>
>The expression "you sound like a broken record" means nothing to them.
>
>They have never owned a record player.
>
>They likely never played PacMan, and have never heard of Pong.
>
>"Star Wars" looks very fake and the special effects are pathetic.
>
>There have always been Red M&M's, and Blue ones are not new.  "What do
>you mean there used to be beige ones?"
>
>They may have heard of an 8-track, but chances are they probably have
>never actually seen or heard one.
>
>The Compact Disc was introduced when they were 1 year old.
>
>As far as they know, stamps have always cost about 32 cents.
>
>Zip codes have always had a dash in them.
>
>And they never "dialed" a telephone, and cannot conceive of not needing
>an area code.
>
>They've always had answering machines, and portable phones.
>
>Most have never seen a TV set with only 13 channels, nor have they seen
>TV in glorious black and white, and no remote. ("You mean you had to get
>up to the set each time???")
>
>They always had cable.
>
>There has always been VCR's, but what is "Betamax??"
>
>They were born the year that Walkman was introduced by Sony.
>
>Roller skating has always meant inline for them.
>
>They have never heard of King Cola, Burger Chef, The World Telegram, the
>Daily Mirror, PM, The Journal American, Pan Am, Ozark Airlines, >Mohawk
>Air, Allegheny Air, or "Yellow Bird....."
>
>The Tonight Show has always been Jay Leno. (Carson who? Jack Parr?? Steve
>Allen??)
>
>They have no idea when or why Jordache jeans were cool.
>
>Popcorn has always been cooked in a microwave.
>
>They have never seen or remember a game that included the St. Louis
>Football Cardinals, the Baltimore Colts, the Minnesota North Stars, the
>Kansas City Kings, the New Orleans Jazz, The Minnesota Lakers,the Atlanta
>Flames, or the Denver Rockies (NHL Hockey, that is), and the NY Giants
>means football...nothing else. The Polo Grounds? Ebbets Field?? What are
>they?
>
>They don't consider the Colorado Rockies, the Florida Marlins, The
>Florida Panthers, The Ottawa Senators, the San Jose Sharks, or the Tampa
>Bay Lightning "expansion teams".
>
>They have never seen Larry Bird play, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is a
>football player.
>
>They never took a swim and thought about Jaws.
>
>The Vietnam War is as ancient history to them as WWI, WWII or even the
>Civil War. (And what was "civil" about a war??)
>
>They have no idea that Americans were ever held hostage in Iran.
>
>They can't imagine what hard contact lenses are. Or that they weren't
>ALWAYS around.
>
>They don't know who Mork was or where he was from.
>
>They never heard:  "Where's the beef?", "I'd Walk a mile for a Camel", or
>"de plane, de plane!".
>
>They do not care who shot J.R. and have no idea who J.R. is. The Cosby
>Show, The Facts of Life, Silver Spoons, The Love Boat, Miami Vice,
>Battlestar Galactica, WKRP in Cincinnati, and Taxi are shows they have
>likely never seen.
>
>The Titanic was found? I thought we always knew where it was.
>
>They cannot remember the Cardinals ever winning a World Series, or even
>being in one.
>
>Kansas, Chicago, Boston, America, and Alabama are places, not musical
>groups.
>
>McDonalds always came in Styrofoam containers. And was there ever a time
>of NO McDonalds??? What did you do for fast food??
>
>Remember, the people who don't know these things will be in college this
>year !

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:17:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

This isn't the scary part, per se.  That part starts when you find
yourself facing a classroom of them.

Kenji

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> forgive me; but I saw this and HAD to post it (it puts new meaning into
> grognard and helps to explain the problems in the gaming hobby...); Seth
> 
> Read it and weep:
> >
> >The people starting college this fall across the nation were born in
> >1980.
> >
> >They have no meaningful recollection of the Reagan era, and don't know he
> >had ever been shot.
> >
> >They were prepubescent when the Persian Gulf War was waged.
> >
> >Black Monday 1987 is as significant to them as the Great Depression.
> >
> >There has only been one Pope.
> >
> >They can only really remember one president.
> >
> >They were 11 when the Soviet Union broke apart, and do not remember the
> >Cold War.
> >
> >They have never feared a nuclear war.
> >
> >"The Day After" is a pill to them, not a movie.
> >
> >CCCP is just a bunch of letters.
> >
> >They have only known one Germany.
> >
> >They are too young to remember the Space shuttle blowing up, and
> >Tiananmin Square means nothing to them.
> >
> >They do not know who Moammar Qadafi is.
> >
> >Their lifetime has always included AIDS.
> >
> >They never had a Polio or Smallpox shot, and likely, do not know what it
> >is.
> >
> >Bottle caps have not only always been screw off, but have always been
> >plastic.
> >
> >They have no idea what a "church key" top can looks like.
> >
> >Atari predates them, as do vinyl albums.
> >
> >The expression "you sound like a broken record" means nothing to them.
> >
> >They have never owned a record player.
> >
> >They likely never played PacMan, and have never heard of Pong.
> >
> >"Star Wars" looks very fake and the special effects are pathetic.
> >
> >There have always been Red M&M's, and Blue ones are not new.  "What do
> >you mean there used to be beige ones?"
> >
> >They may have heard of an 8-track, but chances are they probably have
> >never actually seen or heard one.
> >
> >The Compact Disc was introduced when they were 1 year old.
> >
> >As far as they know, stamps have always cost about 32 cents.
> >
> >Zip codes have always had a dash in them.
> >
> >And they never "dialed" a telephone, and cannot conceive of not needing
> >an area code.
> >
> >They've always had answering machines, and portable phones.
> >
> >Most have never seen a TV set with only 13 channels, nor have they seen
> >TV in glorious black and white, and no remote. ("You mean you had to get
> >up to the set each time???")
> >
> >They always had cable.
> >
> >There has always been VCR's, but what is "Betamax??"
> >
> >They were born the year that Walkman was introduced by Sony.
> >
> >Roller skating has always meant inline for them.
> >
> >They have never heard of King Cola, Burger Chef, The World Telegram, the
> >Daily Mirror, PM, The Journal American, Pan Am, Ozark Airlines, >Mohawk
> >Air, Allegheny Air, or "Yellow Bird....."
> >
> >The Tonight Show has always been Jay Leno. (Carson who? Jack Parr?? Steve
> >Allen??)
> >
> >They have no idea when or why Jordache jeans were cool.
> >
> >Popcorn has always been cooked in a microwave.
> >
> >They have never seen or remember a game that included the St. Louis
> >Football Cardinals, the Baltimore Colts, the Minnesota North Stars, the
> >Kansas City Kings, the New Orleans Jazz, The Minnesota Lakers,the Atlanta
> >Flames, or the Denver Rockies (NHL Hockey, that is), and the NY Giants
> >means football...nothing else. The Polo Grounds? Ebbets Field?? What are
> >they?
> >
> >They don't consider the Colorado Rockies, the Florida Marlins, The
> >Florida Panthers, The Ottawa Senators, the San Jose Sharks, or the Tampa
> >Bay Lightning "expansion teams".
> >
> >They have never seen Larry Bird play, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is a
> >football player.
> >
> >They never took a swim and thought about Jaws.
> >
> >The Vietnam War is as ancient history to them as WWI, WWII or even the
> >Civil War. (And what was "civil" about a war??)
> >
> >They have no idea that Americans were ever held hostage in Iran.
> >
> >They can't imagine what hard contact lenses are. Or that they weren't
> >ALWAYS around.
> >
> >They don't know who Mork was or where he was from.
> >
> >They never heard:  "Where's the beef?", "I'd Walk a mile for a Camel", or
> >"de plane, de plane!".
> >
> >They do not care who shot J.R. and have no idea who J.R. is. The Cosby
> >Show, The Facts of Life, Silver Spoons, The Love Boat, Miami Vice,
> >Battlestar Galactica, WKRP in Cincinnati, and Taxi are shows they have
> >likely never seen.
> >
> >The Titanic was found? I thought we always knew where it was.
> >
> >They cannot remember the Cardinals ever winning a World Series, or even
> >being in one.
> >
> >Kansas, Chicago, Boston, America, and Alabama are places, not musical
> >groups.
> >
> >McDonalds always came in Styrofoam containers. And was there ever a time
> >of NO McDonalds??? What did you do for fast food??
> >
> >Remember, the people who don't know these things will be in college this
> >year !
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:09:44 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:51:07 EST Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>forgive me; but I saw this and HAD to post it (it puts new meaning 
>into
>grognard and helps to explain the problems in the gaming hobby...); 
>Seth
>
>Read it and weep:
>>
==========

You had to make me feel old, eh?

JimC
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #262
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 263



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lensmen series
Re: Doggie Breath
Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)
Re: the nastiest monster
Fighter Screens
Re: Lensmen series
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: the nastiest monster
re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)
Re: Canonicity
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes 
re: GURPS Vehicles on Computer
Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)
FUDGEing Traveller, part 1 (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:25:39 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

At 04:45 AM 3/9/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>> If you haven't read them, buy them and do so.  They are back in print 
>> again.
>>> The six novels are available in trade paperback for $15US each (It was
>>
>> Wait a minute, EACH book is $15 ?!?!?  I really hope I'm reading this
>> wrong, something that short shouldn't be that much!  BTW, the Skylark
>> series should also be read.
>
>1. They aren't that short.
>2. They are in Trade paperback size, on *good* paper (possibly acid
>   free, I don't recall)
>3. They include the illustrations from the original Fantasy Press
>   editions. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

If they are anything like the edition Old Earth did for H. Beam Piper's
"Murder in the Gunroom", then they will be pretty much exact reprints of
the original publication with the dustjacket being the cover of the trade
paperback, both inside and out.  The only difference in the original
"Murder" was the inclusion of a biography and very good bibliography of
Piper's works.  The quality of the book was very good and to me well worth
the price.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Doggie Breath

At 11:23 PM 3/5/99 GMT, you wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:57:14 -0500, "Roger Barr"
><rogerbarr@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>While breeding is
>>>>impossible and who would want to kiss something with doggie
>>>>breath (thats a quick shot at all you Vargr fanatic's out there
>>>>8^)  ), I don't see why sentient members of different species
>>>>couldn't find something in common which attracted them to one
>>>>another and kept them together for the long term.
>
>>>Challenge 49.  There's an article about Mendan sector and the
>>>Julian Protectorate, in which something called the "panet"
>>>relationship is described.
>
>>Would that be similar to the Life-Debt concept keeping Chewbacca at Han 
>>Solo's side?
>>:)
>
>Not the way I read it.  However, I could see a "life-debt" as
>forming the basis for a similarly close relationship between an
>_Aslan_ and a human...
>

Or something far darker.  See the CT adventure 'Murder on Actures station'.
A situation that can lead to a very brutal aslan foe that acts very un-aslan.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

At 08:20 AM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I ran an early Fantasy Trip game Where all but one of my reagular
>players were hire to protect a wealthy merchant from the Assasins guild
>(the A.G. in that world had rules, announcement of the the assasination,
>and the Day it was to be performed, if the target survived 24 hours the
>contract was cancelled. Few survived). Anyway, one player was extremely
>bloodthursty, in a sneaky, lowdown, devious... oops sorry, way. I
>enlisted him and handed him two high level, well equipt characters (lots
>of equipment converted from Busido if I remember right).
>
>I laid out two maps of the target house in different rooms. Assasin in
>one room, other players in the next room. Then proceeded to move back
>and forth telling each what they "saw". It was an awsome game! The
>tension built like a movie with neither side really knowing what was
>going on! 
>
>One memorable moment came when the PCs thought they had one of the
>assasins trapped in the cooks room ( a little old lady). They broke
>through the door and proceeded to stab the robe clad "assasin" to death,
>the cook, dressed in robes ran screaming from the room! Then they pulled
>the mask of the "assasin" and found... the cook! 
>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Heck, I've heard of a guy who somehow or other managed to set things up
>> so that he had two groups of players in the same dungeon in a D&D game.
>> When they ran into each other it got kinda ugly...
>> 
>
>-- 
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>

How did the cook end up in robes and a mask?



I've taken part in games like this.  Any group with enough players and an
agile enough GM or two should try it.  It's a totally different dynamic!
The one I liked best involve several groups exploring the same monster
filled abandoned castle.  We did this a few times in coledge.  There is a
bumper sticker that reads, "Forget the dog, beware of the owner!"  This fit
this game perfectly, 'Forget the NPCs!, beware the PCs!'  Some of the
monsters were the smart ones and bolted to safety when the fireballs started
flying!

I have also run small groups as mutual advisaries either knowingly or
secretly.  This only really works with very mature players but if the
players are up for it...  

The 'royal scavenger hunt' is a good 'device' to let PCs that normally
cooperate compete for royal favor or a cash prize without coming into direct
physical comfrontation.  Having the very prudish and gentlemanly knight try
to secure a 'nubile and noble virgin's undergarment' for 200 points can be
very bizzar especially when he succeeds honorablly only to have the item
disquallified in court because the 'nubile and noble virgin' did not
quality!!!  Major political/social problems soon follow with accompaning
adventures.


One of the best games I ever played in, my character was the 'traiter' in
the group working for 'them'.  We completed the mission but sadly the item
we were sent after by our patron was never located...(Yeah, right!  28, 29,
30 pieces of fine silver!)  It was one of my best games because the other 4
players never caught on.  The GM and I told them AFTER we completed the
entire campain.  My character double crossed the bad guys in the end because
it was more profitable.  He got the reward and all the loot he could palm as
well as his 'fair' share of the loot captured by the group.


As a side note for GT, beware of taking greed as a disadvantage if you are
not up to a little inter party fraud, imbesselment, treachery, and/or other
skull duggery.  Slight of hand, holdout, and merchant(gems/jewlery) skills
is VERY handly in case you do!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

At 08:20 PM 3/9/99 +1300, you wrote:
>
>>> High speed footage later proved that the planet was host to a
>strange form
>>> of flying insect possessing an extremely hard armoured carapace,
>which
>>> could fly at extremely high-- yet still subsonic-- velocities.
>>
>>The thing is, you gotta wonder _why_ that little bug evolved such a
>high
>>speed lifestyle...what's it running from...?
>
>Grendels on speed ?
>
>Love that as a way of building up the nasty though. Give the players
>trouble with what turns out to be the _prey_ creature, and let them
>speculate for a while on what the _predator_ looks like.
>
>Did this once too well, the players were so spooked at the idea of
>something eating the creature they had so much trouble with, they
>lifted off and tried to have the planet declared a Red Zone. But of
>course, "the Company" didn't agree ("What dangerous predator ? Show me
>a picture of one. You can't ? You have no evidence of one other than
>that the herbivore was dangerous ? Incompetent fools !!" ) and sent
>settlers.....
>

First, we have nearly identical reading habits.

>BTW, my vote for nastiest nasty is Christopher Rowley's "Vang"
>Especially the Battlemaster form.
>
>IIRC, the "heroes" _never_ beat this nasty, they just finally found it
>after it had committed suicide once it had determined the rest of it's
>race had been destroyed, having chased it all over the universe,
>always being two steps behind.
>
>The "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" phrase is even
>more appropriate for Vang than for Aliens. In the first Vang novel
> "The Vang", which was not their first appearance, but if I start
>talking about all the wonderful idea's in "Starhammer" I won't stop,
>just read it ! )  the only reason human civilization survived first
>contact is that the Military form of the Vang made one fundamental
>mistake, it assumed the population was native and therefore did not
>look for, and immediately seize, the starport.
>
>Even so, it was a close run thing, with the Vang almost making it to
>the next jump-capable ship that  entered system.
>

In the first "Vang" book they nuked the planet down to the bedrock, and the
battle master was even nastier.  If the 'Vang shows up MY PC is going to
just forget fighting and work on running off planet and distroying all other
space craft.  Those things can survive the long trip by sublight.  They
don't care if they win in a few years or centuries.  The "Vang" are more a
force than a monster, totally implacable.  Battle dress troops would just
give the "Vang" better armor and weapons.  YIKES!  "Vang" combat forms IN
Battle dress.  I'm outa' here!!!

>Of course my second nastiest baddy would be a toss up between Niven's
>Slavers and Tnuctpin (sp?)

How could you use this in a campian?  They unstasis and control everybody in
sight or everyboby in the system if they have an amplifier helmet.  Now an
unstasised member of the race they stole their tech from would be
interesting especially if it knew that the Slavers had a 'sleeper' base
designed to survive the 'galatic life killer' weapon they used when their
slaves broke free and began to exterminate them.  If the 'sleeper agent'
also had enough of the gaggets that blocks the slavers mental control for
the party...

>as shown in "The Sea Statue" and one of the Man-Kzin war books, and
>"World of Ptavs", or perhaps getting on the wrong side of a Pak
>Protector from a different clan/race ( "Protector" )
>

Have not read this, What book/series is this "Protector" from?

>Add in Saberhagen's Berserkers, along with the little machines
>designed to _hunt_ berserkers.....
>

I did something like this in a game.  A small berserker probes' brain was
dug up by an arcialogical group.  It quickly stared to adapt local equipment
for its' remotes.  To give the PCs a chance the original 'CPU' core was the
only part that could think and I set a period of time and parts list that it
would need to build more core units.  And the race is on...

>If you really want to be mean though, the absolute worst creature is a
>nano-machine culture taken to the extremes described in Greg Bear's
>"Blood Music" .
>
>It can't really be fought, it isn't evil or implacably hostile to
>other life-forms like the Vang, it's just different....
>
>Imagine, a culture of such creatures (or even a less inimicable Vang
>culture ) requesting an Imperial ambassador as a host.....
>

What about a relatively benign symbiot as a PC that has to 'share' another
person's body?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:12:47 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Fighter Screens

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>
> A fighter screen, even if it can't do ship-
> killing attacks, can engage an enemy unit 
> enough to keep it away from the support 
> units...but the enemy could always bring a 
> bigger fighter screen.

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> wrote:
>
> Why would a battleship captain stop and engage 
> a squadron of fighters, which can't hurt him 
> and may not even be able to catch up with him, 
> and ignore more high-value targets?

The topic of fighter screens in Bruce's MCS 
(Military Combat System AKA Fudion Guard) was 
mentioned briefly in passing on the trav-tech 
mailing list this time last year (27th Feb - 4th 
March, roughly).  The conclusion was basicly 
that under the MCS system, using FFS2 rules to 
build the ships, it is possible to design a 
squadron of fighters that can severly damage or 
destroy light military ships (~1000 - 3000 tons) 
and inflict performance degrading damage on even 
quite large ships (~30,000 tons).

A battleship captain wouldn't care about them at 
all, but his screen of cruisers and destroyers 
might, leaving the enemy cruisers and destroyers 
free to attack _his_ support ships.

As for a fighter screen not being able to catch 
up with a capital ship - under FFS/FFS2, it 
would be quite unusual to see a fighter that 
can't keep up - especially as under the MCS the 
fighter's superior acceleration is just about 
all that keeps it from instant destruction at 
the hands of those capital ship weapons.


Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 
IMTU 1.0 tc+ tm+ tn- t4+ ru@ ge++(-) 3i+ jt- au+ ls+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:27:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

> 1. They aren't that short.

But, they aren't that long, especially compared to modern books.  Why is it
that in the 90's a book has to be big enough that it doensn't easily fit in
your back pocket?

> 2. They are in Trade paperback size, on *good* paper (possibly acid
>    free, I don't recall)

I'm assuming here you mean the format larger than a standard paperback.  If
they went with that size I wish they'd simply gone Hardback and charged the
extra.  I hate oversized paperbacks!

> 3. They include the illustrations from the original Fantasy Press
>    editions. 

Ah, finally a good thing.  Based on this point I'll actually have to find
them and check them out.  Having put together a set a couple years ago used,
I really doubt I'll bother spending the $150 though.  I'd rather spend that
on GURPS or something else.

				Zane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:50:18 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

I think one of the niftiest, nastiest, and all around mind numbing would
have to be the returning 'souls' from Hamilton's Reality Dysfunction.  The
poor PC's will not what hit them until it is too late.  Plus, think of all
the fun that historical figures would have with all the new goodies.  

ObTrav:  On a balkinized planet, Rommel and Patton go toe to toe with their
grav tank armies, or Admiral Lord Nelson helps the Royal family of Colchis
II regain their throne...

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:43:09 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:29 +0000 Charles Prevatte
<prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>At 08:20 PM 3/9/99 +1300, you wrote:
>>as shown in "The Sea Statue" and one of the Man-Kzin war books, and
>>"World of Ptavs", or perhaps getting on the wrong side of a Pak
>>Protector from a different clan/race ( "Protector" )
>>
>
>Have not read this, What book/series is this "Protector" from?
>

Pak Protectors are another creation of Larry Niven.  IIRC, the most
detailed work is called Protector or Pak Protector.  You DONT want to
mess with a Protector.  They are absolutely, totally, unequivocally
devoted to their clan, which consists of juvenile Protectors (which are
also, BTW, the ancestors of humans).  When a Pak reaches a certain age,
IIRC, they begin to alter their form, I wont try to go into details, read
Niven, and the Protectors will do ANYTHING to protect their clan.  They
often die if their clan is wiped out.  They are also very long lived
(centuries IIRC) and extremely intelligent and cunning.  They could build
a nuke out of a Van De Graf generator and a pile of dirty socks.  They
are also totally ruthless regarding any opposing clan (or anything else
they consider an enemy).  If you get away, they'll travel the length of
the galaxy to get you if necessary.  In a slow boat.  Alone.  


Two PCs in a bar.

PC1:  Whats that funny lookin critter with no hair and a beak?
PC2:  I dunno, those Aslan said it was a Pak, and left in a big hurry.
PC1 (who's heard about Pak):  OH @#!++!!!!!!!!!  UHH, BARKEEP, TAB
PLEASE, AHH, HECK, HERE, THIS SHOULD COVER IT (throws wad of money at
bar) COME ON!!!!!!

and he drags PC2 out the door, and they head for the starport pronto.

You DONT #^@$ with a Pak Protector!!!!

JimC

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:26:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Imperial American (was: [BITS] Task System notes)

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
>>GT really bugs me. It claims to be 'Imperial' but it's actually 'American'
>>and then it mixes in SI units.... <sigh> It's silly, but most of the old
>>Imperial units have little reference for me, except maybe height.
>
>Well, it _could_ be the first clues that the US is becoming an empire in
>name, as well as in fact :-)

This is really scarey Rob - are you reading my mind?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:42:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>Dom Mooney "ranted, slobbered, and drooled":
>
>> But TNE wasn't consistent! The M-Drive was different, there weren't any
>> fusion guns, Virus was flawed... rant, slobber, drool, rant.....
>
>T-plates are provided in FF&S, amongst others.  Fusion guns are there, they
>just aren't space weapons (isn't it the same in T4?).  Virus flawed?  LOL  In
>what way?  ;-)

A serious reply: Even if you kept the old style designs a lot of starports
and other maps had been drawn on the basis of a Millennium Falcon Style
Drive, not a Plasma Torch. This is a problem if you use old material.

A Silly Reply: Fusion Guns are Space Weapons (3 systems to 2 vote)... cf
High Guard.  - " There is no game but Traveller and High Guard is its
product"- Virus is flawed because it broke the Imperium badly.

Anyway, I'm not looking to start a flamefest on this (we've done it
before). Lets play our own versions and enjoy ourselves; like it or not CT,
MT, T4 and GT bear more resemblance to each other than TNE. Is this a bad
thing? Depends on your point of view. TNE at its best was thought
provoking, and combined feelings of pathos and hope. At its worst it was
clunky and revisionist. I'm sad the storyline ended but aren't really
bothered by the death of the rules system. My two favourite products where
Battle Rider and FFS1, and the Regency Sourcebook. Sorry my three favourite
TNE products were....

*I like HG but I like the way FFS1 explained the technology too.

Much could the same could be said about the other periods and games systems
in Traveller. They all have strong points.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:47:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Better yet, could you simplify High Guard to Imperium levels? Or even
>better, reduce Trillion Credit Squadron to War at Sea complexity?  (Not
>joking - I'd like a fast playable Traveller game.)

There's a boardgame by Wasteland Games which looks like it does this. It's
called Ad Astra. If you read it it is heavily influenced by TCS/HG. I
talked to one of the designers and he said this was the inspiration and
they wanted a faster version than having to handle the Esperanzan Fighter
Horde.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:49:40 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Units was Re: [BITS] Task System notes 

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:

>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>>ObTrav: A misunderstanding of terms lands the characters in deep water..
>>:)
>
>And Doug's jokes sink to new depths... :-)

I hope everyone fathoms that out.

These little bits of humour   tide    us over until someone   corals
their thoughts together, and  fishes  out a new thread to  sea  if we can
all be stimulated a bit more....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:51:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: GURPS Vehicles on Computer

"Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> wrote:

>I am working on one now.
>I have no clue when it will be done.
>I have no clue if I will charge for it.

Perhaps you and Rob should collaborate?

I promise we won't shoot you if you do....

>Who said I was sane?

Funny... Rob said the same thing....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:05:44 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Stateroom size (RL reference)

Michael Peters writes:
> If a passenger is Jumping from one world to the next on business they'll
> put up with cramped quarters in a free trader. If, however, they're
> taking a multi-world Grand Tour, for say 2-3 months, they're going to
> want elbo room! 
> 
> Then there are the "family" ships or nomads that are part of Traveller
> mythos in some areas. For these you really need to be able to build
> appartments, as opposed to just sleeping quarters.

I'm developing a ship design system (yes, yet another one) 
that works at roughly the same detail as High Guard. What I 
did about accommodations was to define a base cost (tonnage
and money) per person, plus a per-comfortable-day cost. The
total accommodation expenditure is assumed to consist of 
cabins, common spaces, stores, luxuries, laundries, etc., 
all at the architect's (not the designer's) discretion.

Ship crews can stay aboard ship for longer than the comfort 
time, but morale rolls are involved to maintain skill levels. 
After double the comfort time, crew is on short rations and 
morale roll failures tend to have serious consequences.

High passage passengers won't go over the comfort time. If 
there's a reason they must, they'll demand refunds. 
Middle passage passengers will go to 1.5 times the comfort 
time for a discount.

This has several nice effects. It unifies small craft couches,
small craft staterooms, and single and double-occupancy cabins;
the only difference is the comfort time (one of my goals for the
whole design system was to avoid arbitrary rules like small craft
versus ships). It also covers storage for provisions.

I'm considering rolling off the cost somewhat after a certain
number of days to simulate closed-cycle recycling and allow
really long range ships; with my current design sequence it's 
hard to make a really really long range ship. 

The values I used were 0.5t per person base, plus 0.1t per
person per day. A one-day couch (first class airline seat?)
would be 0.6t; the traditional 4t stateroom gets you over a 
month of comfort. Tweak the values if you want different 
answers. 

- -Russell B

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:24:01 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: FUDGEing Traveller, part 1 (Long)

A question was asked yesterday about using FUDGE with Traveller. Here
are some of the rules I use for that.

Eris


Tasks:

FUDGE uses descriptive adjectives to describe skill/attribute levels,
task difficulties, and ranges that are associated with numbers
centered around 0. This is the standard FUDGE scale and descriptors...

	+3 Superb
	+2 Great
	+1 Good
	 0 Fair
	-1 Mediocre
	-2 Poor
	-3 Terrible

...a character would be described as having Great Skill, and a task
would require Fair effort to accomplish. Unopposed Task resolution
involves comparing the difference between the skill the character has
and the skill needed to succeed, then rolling that sum or greater on
several dice. The dice are also normalized around 0. You can use
specialty Fudge dice (df) numbered -1/0/+1, the suggested number of
them is four, but using more or less is up to the GM.  You can also
use regular d6's where you subtract one from another 1d6-1d6, but the
curve is flatter with the d6's than the df's.

Example: Joe has Good skill at Intrusion and he is attempting a
Mediocre task. Put your finger on Good and run it down (negative) to
Mediocre for a -2, Joe must roll -2 or better to succeed.  Joe rolls
1d6 (5) then another 1d6 (3) and subtracts (5-3) giving him a +2, or
Joe rolls 4df and compares/sums finding he has a +2...Joe succeeds in
his attempted Intrusion.

Personally, I prefer to use the 1d6-1d6 method and the Traveller
adjectives for tasks and ranges, so I use three columns of
descriptors. I had to modify them a little, but they should be easily
understood for folks use to the Traveller task systems.

Die		     Descriptors
Roll 	Range		Skill		Difficulty	
====================================================
 5      Extreme+2	Legendary	Impossible  
 4      Extreme+1       Awesome 	Hopeless
 3      Extreme         Superb          Staggering
 2      V Long          Great           Formidable  
 1      Long            Good            Difficult 
 0      Effective       Fair            Average   
- -1      Short           Mediocre        Routine       
- -2      V Short         Poor            Easy      
- -3      Contact         Terrible                 
- -4                      Terrible-1		      
- -5                   	Terrible-2                   
===========================================================
Notes: Many people (including me) also give descriptive names to
Terrible-1, -2, but you certainly don't have to. 
I don't like Impossible as a descriptor...impossible should be
impossible. I normally would call that level Hopeless+1. 
Ranges beyond Extreme are generally "out of range" but are included
for completeness.

Example1:  Lou is going to calculate a Difficult Astrogation plot. She
has Good skill at Astrogation, but she also has a +1 Astrogation
program to help her so she gets an effective skill of Good+1, or
Great. Putting our finger on Great and comparing its position to
Difficult we see she needs a -1 or better to succeed. Pretty easy.

Example2:  There is a ship at Extreme range for the sensors on Bob's
ship that he *might* be able to detect. Bob has Good Sensor Ops skill,
but there is a -1 because he isn't really focused on the task, so
Bob's effective skill is Good-1, or Fair.  Putting our finger on Fair
and comparing to Extreme we see he needs a +3 or better to succeed.
That's tough!

Example3: Same ship as in Example2, but this time it isn't trying to
cloak its signature so it gets one level easier to detect, giving it
an effective range of V Long, and Bob is not only concentrating, but
is focusing the sensor sweeps on this particular area of space rather
than doing a 360 sweep, giving him an effective skill of Good+1, or
Great. Now comparing Great to V Long, we see that Bob's chances of
succeeding have greatly improved as he needs only a 0 or better to
succeed.

Attribute Levels:

1. When I have a completed Traveller character to convert, I use a
formula and a table for this:
		((Traveller Stat)-7) / 2

Trav.   FUDGE    Skill
Level   Level   Descriptor
==========================
15	+4.0	Awesome	
14	+3.5	Superb+
13	+3.0	Superb
12	+2.5	Great+
11	+2.0	Great
10	+1.5	Good+
 9	+1.0	Good
 8	+0.5	Fair+
 7	 0.0	Fair
 6	-0.5	Mediocre+
 5	-1.0	Mediocre
 4	-1.5	Poor+
 3	-2.0	Poor
 2	-2.5	Terrible+
 1	-3.0	Terrible

2. When the player is developing the character using this system they
can either...

a. Random: Roll (1d6-1d6)/2 and go to the table.

b. Distribute: Everything starts at Fair, they have 4 levels to
distribute as they see fit, and they can reduce an attribute to
increase another. I strongly suggest putting a limit on the number of
Attributes that start at Superb or better!

Note:  The +'s have no effect on play, but I have attributes increase
though character improvement by half level steps, so they represent a
someone halfway up to the next level. Skills also improve at half
level steps at Great and above.

Skills:

1. When converting a Traveller character you can....

a. Base the beginning level of the skill on a Controlling Attribute's
level - 1.

b. Base the beginning skill on a controlling level of Poor.

Then use the following table as the Skill levels increase.

Skill	Skill
Level	Description
====================
 0	Poor
 1 	Mediocre
 2	Fair
 3	Good
 4	Great
 5	Great+
 6	Superb
 7	Superb+
 8	Awesome
 9	Awesome+
10	Legendary

Note: increases go to half levels at Great!

2. When creating a character with these rules you can...

a. Use a Traveller career method of your choice and then convert as
above.

b.  Subjectively choose the skills and levels the character would
have, subject to GM approval

c.  Distribute some number of points, given you by the GM, among
skills at your option. Again, I suggest limiting the number of skills
at Superb or greater.

***Skill Difficulties***
GURPS and FUDGE rate skills as being EASY, AVERAGE, HARD & VERY HARD.
Traveller does not. It does make sense that some skills are harder to
learn than others, and if you want to include this you can by using
the following table, but you will have to decide on each skill's
difficulty from non-Traveller sources.

  Skill's Diff.    Level One starts at      or starts at
  =======================================================
  Easy		Controlling Attribute		Mediocre
  Average	Controlling Attribute - 1	Poor
  Hard		Controlling Attribute - 2	Terrible
  Very Hard	Controlling Attribute - 3	Terrible-1

...end of part 1.

ABOUT FUDGE
FUDGE is a role-playing game written by Steffan O'Sullivan, with
extensive input from the Usenet community of rec.games.design.  The
basic rules of FUDGE are available on the internet via anonymous ftp
at ftp.csua.berkeley.edu, and in book form or on disk from Grey Ghost
Games, P.O. Box 838, Randolph, MA 02368.  They may be used with any
gaming genre.  While an individual work derived from FUDGE may specify
certain attributes and skills, many more are possible with FUDGE. 
Every Game Master using FUDGE is encouraged to add or ignore any
character traits.  Anyone who wishes to distribute such material for
free may do so - merely include this ABOUT FUDGE notice and disclaimer
(complete with FUDGE copyright notice).  If you wish to charge a fee
for such material, other than as an article in a magazine or other
periodical, you must first obtain a royalty-free license from the
author of FUDGE, Steffan O'Sullivan, P.O. Box 465, Plymouth, NH 03264.

DISCLAIMER
The following materials based on FUDGE, entitled FUDGING Traveller,
are created by Eris Reddoch and made available by Eris Reddoch, and
are not authorized or endorsed in any way by Steffan O'Sullivan or any
publisher of other FUDGE materials.  Neither Steffan O'Sullivan or any
publisher of other FUDGE material is in any way responsible for the
content of these materials.  Original FUDGE materials (c) Copyright
992-1995 Steffan O'Sullivan, All Rights Reserved.

FUDGE URL:  http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/fudge.html

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #263
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 264



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: New Spaceport Completed
Re: Fighter Screens
re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:51:46 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Hello,
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
...
>Now, imagine this concept mated to High Guard. If you don't have enough
>combat units to engage every enemy combat asset, the unengaged ones
>get to go play hell with your support units. A fighter screen, even if it
>can't do ship-killing attacks, can engage an enemy unit enough to keep
>it away from the support units...but the enemy could always bring a bigger
>fighter screen.
>
>In this case, the main purpose of the fighter screen - considering how hard
>it is for a fighter to affect a warship - is to delay the enemy force until the
>big friendly ship can deal with it - maintain contact, force the enemy to
>maintain combat readiness and combat evasion maneuvers, divert and
>delay the enemy so he doesn't escape or get a clear shot at some target
>the task force is attempting to defend.

  Imperium is meant to be a much simpler game, and its battles need to play
much faster as the campaign is the actual point of the game. High Guard is
intended for use in resolving individual engagements, and thus allows itself
the luxuries of dozens (if not hundreds) of dice rolls by major combatants 
each turn and detailed damage resolution.

  High Guard would be drastically changed in play-balance were such to be
adopted. Further, it would needlessly hamper attempts to improve the fit
of the current (HG2) rules to reality. As it stands the rules do a tolerably
decent job of modelling a fleet formation in one dimension, by having the
line of battle for each side assumed to be within effective ranges of each
other even while each sides reserve is placed sufficiently far back as to
be out of range of the others line.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:01:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> wrote:

>Why would a battleship captain stop and engage a squadron of fighters,
>which can't hurt him and may not even be able to catch up with him, and
>ignore more high-value targets?

The fighters can strip off the surface fixtures like turrets and sensors,
and damage the engines/T-Plates. The bits you can't really armour. No
Traveller rules system does this that well.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:05:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

Those 'returning' in the Peter Hamilton books (Reality Dysfunction and the
Neutronium Alchemist) are pretty scarey too.

I keep this vague so as not to ruin it for those who haven't read it yet,
but it's kind of close to the Raver/Bylabon/Keeper idea I mentioned earlier.

<shiver(*)>

Dom

(*) Not a SLA Law Officer....

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:09:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

 j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com> writes:

>Sorry I couldn't help myself there.  Reduce cost??  They must be joking.
>Anyone who could take a prototype spacecraft, call it a line model, and
>then use it to loft satellites and space station parts while lugging
>along a crew of several along with associated life support gear, run by a
>government agency, is nuts if they think they can get costs that low
>without subsidy, which is false cost reduction anyway.  Lofting sats and
>SS parts with the shuttle is like moving your couch with a Rolls Royce.
>I am so darn sick and tired of being told what a great job NASA is doing
>cutting costs and making space access a reality.  It won't really happen
>until we engineers and other real folk get off our collective @$$#$ and
>do it privately!!!!  GRRRRRR!!!!!!  Huh?!  What!?  No, not the needle,
>not that, no, nono,
>nooooooo......................snorrrrrrrrrrrrre....................
>
></rant mode>
>
>Sorry folks.  Seriously, thats utterly absurd.  I'll cloak and go back to
>lurking now.

Arrw.... and I was going to join in.

Has anyone noticed how David Smart keeps on posting really interesting news
stories?

Thanks David!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:24:15 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

>From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
>Subject: Fighter Screens
...
>The topic of fighter screens in Bruce's MCS 
>(Military Combat System AKA Fusion Guard) was 
...
>A battleship captain wouldn't care about them at 
>all, but his screen of cruisers and destroyers 
>might, leaving the enemy cruisers and destroyers 
>free to attack _his_ support ships.

  Quite possibly, except that the degraded screening elements will still
have their heavy anti-ship batteries available (spinal mounts and whatever
else a given design system allows). Further, said ships have to keep far
enough away from any battleships that they're trying to bypass - firing
solutions with beam weapons (esp. in MCS) clearly assume that ranges are
well beyond the "automatic hit per ROF" range for lasers, which means that
there is a closer range band within which the tempo of combat increases
dramatically (i.e., roughly about where Det-Lasers deploy & terminate).

>As for a fighter screen not being able to catch 
>up with a capital ship - under FFS/FFS2, it 
>would be quite unusual to see a fighter that 
>can't keep up - especially as under the MCS the 
>fighter's superior acceleration is just about 
>all that keeps it from instant destruction at 
>the hands of those capital ship weapons.

  IIRC, MCS allows G's to be assigned to either evasion or maneuver*; 
exploiting an enemy reserve line is going to require _lots_ of G's
to go "around" the battleline, at which point you would likely only
meet a reserve screen (if available) anyway.

 * I could be thinking of the aiming spinal mount step, but the principle
is fairly sound even if the rules syste, doesn't support it.

  The obvious solution is to go to a hex-based display.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:43:56 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Imperium is meant to be a much simpler game, and its battles need to play
much faster as the campaign is the actual point of the game. High Guard is
intended for use in resolving individual engagements, and thus allows itself
the luxuries of dozens (if not hundreds) of dice rolls by major combatants 
each turn and detailed damage resolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm recalling the last half-dozen BCS rounds I've run, and the hundreds of
die rolls involved for fewer than a dozen craft per side. That's some luxury.

Note that my idea wouldn't change the die rolling much at all, just give
better defined roles to things like Destroyers and Fighter Squadrons.
It might also speed up the game a bit, as there will be a lot of massive
overmatching going on. Destroyer screening against a battleship better
have some emergency agility in the pipes...

I need to work on a computer-based HG combat resolution aid. Ship
data input might be time consuming...

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
  High Guard would be drastically changed in play-balance were such to be
adopted. Further, it would needlessly hamper attempts to improve the fit
of the current (HG2) rules to reality. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reality? The US Navy (Air Force?) must be more advanced than I thought.
<weg>
Seriously, I assume you mean the "reality" of some published SF books
involving fleet combat, right?

I don't think play balance would change so much as fleet construction
and deployment. The victory might go to more than the biggest guns
and the best ship designs.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
As it stands the rules do a tolerably
decent job of modelling a fleet formation in one dimension, by having the
line of battle for each side assumed to be within effective ranges of each
other even while each sides reserve is placed sufficiently far back as to
be out of range of the others line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Much as I like the simplicity of it, what sensible reality is modelled by
having fleets line up like age of sail men-of-war? Space is so big that
lines of battle will only meet by mutual agreement. Modifying the Imperium
line of battle system adds an entire new dimension of squadron construction
and battle tactics to what HG essentially leaves as a number-crunching
slugfest.

I'm working on the order Admirals present their ships for matchup, based
on Agility, with possible modifiers for Fleet Tactics skills and computer
rating (sensors, you know). Side that loses initiative presents a ship
first to be matched by the side that won is how Imperium does it, I'd
like a level of detail beyond that...however, I want to find a level that
doesn't give too much power to either Initiative or Agility, some happy
medium.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:47:21 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:51:07 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

[snip]


You forgot one:



The terms "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" are foreign to them.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 15:16:01 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller

Alternative Travellers II

   Having won a whole bundle of 2300AD items in a tournament a short 
while ago.  Impressed with quality of Traveller younger brother, I 
started me to think how to integrate this host of material into my 
pre-existing Traveller campaign.  There are a good number of reasons to 
do this, least of all that a future history ought to be consistent with 
the future that is in the making (as any good science fiction writer 
knows) otherwise, suffer the fate of being dismissed.
    The first is that two game systems share the same basic goals and 
commitments to preserving a "Hard SF" presence (notwithstanding, the 
occasional lapses that each Milieu possesses) against the realms of 
Techno-Fantasy or Space Opera of say a Star Wars or Star Trek campaign 
and do not excessively delve into a Dark Future campaign.  
Notwithstanding, the somewhat naive underlying assumption that we are 
either going to have the means to conquer the galaxy and meet with our 
Vilani cousins in a short 100 years (Traveller) without even picking up 
the equivalent of Much Music or any other signals from our interstellar 
brethren; nor is it credible that after nearly blowing the planet into a 
radioactive cinder (T2000) in 300 years mankind will be firmly implanted 
among the Stars (2300AD) with the same nations that are today jockeying 
for supremacy still exist.  In addition, it is uncanny to note how 
certain key dates remain the same across both systems.  Lastly, no 
matter how technically adept the Terrans were it is hard to believe that 
they were able to conquer the territorially vast expanse and the more 
technologically advanced Ziru Sirka in a mere 200 years (without any 
sort of prior armament build-up)!
    Sensing the interest of building a Milieu 21.  Thus, it is only 
fitting that 2300AD be joined with Traveller.  To do would require 
definite changes to the existing Traveller timeline.  Without, further 
ado here is my suggestion for the changed timeline (naturally borrowing 
heavily from Traveller and 2300AD lore) - used in my campaign in the 
period prior to the outbreak of the Interstellar Wars.  I welcome 
critical comments and suggestions.

Antiquity (The Time of Ancients -- Milieu -300 000)

Circa -400 000:		 The Universe is thriving with life with a diverse 
range of alien species inhabiting Chartered Space and beyond. The most 
prominent of these are the Ancients - predominately Grandfather 
(Yaskoydray) and his Children and Grandchildren (clones of himself) who 
have spread rapidly throughout the Stars.  Sharing the region of 
Chartered Space are the variety of proto-Major Races who exist in Stone 
Age or pre-Stone Age conditions (notwithstanding, those selected for an 
uplift programme for certain sections of Humanity and the Vargr) who 
were regarded little more novel animals by the Ancients.  There also 
exists a wide range of other spacefaring Races who while not as 
technologically advanced as the Ancients made there home among the 
Stars.  These include:  Ebers, Pentapods (in reality, an Ancient 
geneered organism), Gn'aak, Jgd-Il-Jagd, and countless others.  There 
are also civilizations that even further advanced than the Ancients 
themselves.  These include:  the Primordials, Gallifreynocchii, 
inhabitants of X9C4000-0 R, and other of the Great Old Ones whose traces 
are few and lost in the sands of time.  Civilizations rise...and 
civilizations fall.  Also, in this time there were many civilizations 
whose embers flickered in the vast cold interstellar void.  This is 
especially true for the Ancients who never sought to build an 
interstellar empire or assert their sovereignty over space in a 
meaningful way other scattered bases or worlds throughout charted space 
with installations numbering only one or two per standard Imperial 
Sector with a population of one to three Ancients per installation 
(notwithstanding, perhaps of millions of Droyne and secondary life 
forms).  The Ancients preferred to concentrate their vast energies on  
pure research delving into the realms of science to gain insight into 
the of secrets of the known universe (all that comprises time and space) 
rather than empire building.
   
Circa -300 000: 		The Ancients Final War.  Grandfather having failed to 
convince his
Children and Grandchildren to return to the homeworld for an unspecified 
reason (a threat unimaginable proportions was looming from the Coreward 
regions of the Ancients' sphere).  To protect the Droyne homeworld 
Grandfather unleashes the Final War culminating the virtual destruction 
of most of his children.

More about this Milieu will be known to us if a Milieu -400 000 
Sourcebook ever becomes published.  I am looking for collaboration and 
official recognition for such a project. <hint, hint>

Milieu Pax Vilani or the Grand Empire of Stars

From -300 000 forward the timeline fundamentally remains unaltered 
except the reach of the Ziru Sirka never has it is Rimward frontier 
neighbouring Terra.  Instead, there exists a smattering of alien client 
states (knowledge of the Vilani exists but more in the form of obscure 
trade agreements and long lost dealings with emissaries through which 
that trade is conducted), frontier installations, prison planets 
containing Cultural Dissents and hardened criminals, surrounding yet not 
within 62 light years of Terra.  Being the wild frontier, the Vilani do 
not allow technological leakage to occur.  Therefore, no Jump Drive 
technology has been allowed to enter this area.  The main concentration 
of Vilani power is centred Coreward deep in the Diaspora sector with a 
petty Provincial Governor presides over a large swath of this frontier 
nominally reporting to Sharurshid Governor located further Coreward.

Circa -2528:		On this year a planetary governor of an insignificant 
world called Zeraris
 Cassilldani begin broadcasting "strange" programmes over the planetary 
communications net.  Being intractable collectors of kitsch, the 
Cassilldans over the last decade or so began to build radio collection 
dishes to collect old segments of Vilani soap operas that had long lost 
in the cosmic ocean of the cosmos.  Hundreds of amateur enthusiasts 
began collaborating in the collection of lost data.  The Vilani 
overlords had no problem with the project as it did not interfere with 
the business of running the planet and, in fact, aided the process of 
cultural assimilation of this minor human race in the Rimward frontier 
reaches.  The AAB even became involved in the project as a way of 
retrieving and verifying archival sources (also the screen out any 
potentially subversive data).
   Collectors of the "strange" new programs claimed such programmes had 
been on the public access channel for at least seven years.  However, 
what was most disconcerting for the Vilani and the AAB was these signals 
were not of any known Vilani origin and seemed to be emanating from the 
galactic rim.  Speculation at the AAB hinged on the programmes were the 
signals originated from a Lost Colony or some minor Human race that was 
yet undiscovered by the Empire.  Some even on suggest that the "Uradane" 
were merely a cosmic reflection or space echo of some minor race that 
existed before absorption into the Ziru Sirka.

- -2527:		A report was duly filed with Sharurshid district governor who 
reluctantly agreed (as
exploration of new worlds in an "empty" sector of space was no way 
conducive for career advancement) to appropriation of funds for a Class 
I survey searching for the lost world of Uradanid.  This region of space 
was little explored by the Vilani and not settled by any Vilani colonies 
in historical memory.  Consequently, rumours of a lost colony started by 
a ship that had misjumped from a more Coreward locale was the working 
assumption of the explorers.  The expedition was also required that the 
Vilani bring a fully outfitted jump-capable ship into potentially 
hostile alien territory.  The business castes were reluctant to lose 
potentially more assets in unknown space but, used the rationale that it 
was necessary to shore up support among the alien client-state which 
existed Rimward.  The military castes enthusiastically sanctioned and 
justified the mission in terms of the assertion of Vilani sovereignty 
over an unruly frontier.  With the backing of the academic, 
political/economic and military castes the researchers were granted 
final permission to undertake the expedition.

Late -2523:		1995AD, Uradanid or Terra (Earth) was discovered by the 
Vilani expedition.  After even 
preliminary observation, it was clear that this was no lost colony of 
Vilani origin.  There were too many cultural factions and no trace of a 
prior Vilani presence this far Rimward.  (Prior reports on Terra of the 
"Fires in the Sky" or UFOs ought to be discounted as non-Vilani in 
origin.  And, the proverbial cosmic battle between the "Whites" and 
"Grays" descent from a racial memory dating backing the Ancients' 
intervention.)  The Vilani were shocked by the proliferation of cultural 
factions (215 plus at least 500 distinct subcultural groupings) and the 
Uradane proclivity toward stockpiling fission weapons.  The 
balkanisation of Uradanid combined with the fission weapons meant that 
if First Contact was to be performed great care and circumspect study of 
the world would have to be undertaken before absorption into the Ziru 
Sirka could be accomplished (with the hope that the natives do not 
discover "Jump Drive" by chance).  Notwithstanding and contrary to the 
mission objectives and the First Contact Specialist Team, a small band 
of Vilani descended to the surface of Terra (in a sufficiently remote 
area) to undertake first hand in-depth observation.  With the remainder 
of the mission returning to Vilani-controlled space and duly filing a 
report with the Sharurshid regional governor and promptly begins to 
gather dust.
   Terra enters the "Years of Twilight" or the "Years of Madness"--the 
21st century as Terra grapples with wreckage left from the Age of 
Extremities.  How many of the events of these years can be directly 
attributed to the Contact Team cannot be ascertained with any certainty.  
This epoch is marked economic stagnation, ethnic strife, return of 
vigilante terrorism, frequent warfare (including limited use of nuclear 
weapons), and near ecological collapse engendered by irrational use of 
planetary resources.   The devastation was global in scope, and did not 
end with the tossing of the last bomb.  The slide through pestilence, 
famine, and anarchy continued for much of the century.  The physical 
destruction was to be found on every continent.  A disaster of equal 
magnitude, however, was the destruction of the world's transportation 
network.  Vulnerable ocean shipping fell victim to naval actions by 
rival blocs and increasing, independent private corsair/raider 
operations (with safe harbours guaranteed by rival nations and 
increasingly transnational corporations-who sought to "protect" their 
investments or from deep-ocean bases maintained by rival military 
alliances).  Only Japan retained a large and viable merchant fleet with 
often armed escorts provided by the Nizhny-Novogorod--Magellan Alliance 
and sought to consolidate its position in world trade.  The "Years of 
Twilight" were not necessary an age of unrelieved famine and despair.  
During the recovery populations worked hard, building for themselves and 
their children.  The 21st century was also marked by three important 
movements:  the end of dependence on fossil fuels, the emergence of 
Europe, and the Melbourne Accords.
The Fuel Crisis:  An increase in tensions between the hawks in various 
South West Asian (read:  Middle Eastern) nations led to a re-igniting 
spark of war in the region and the inevitable flame of revolution that 
comes afterwards.  The combination of wars and revolutions caused the 
Americans to forsake the Gulf and concentrate on oil reserves that were 
closer to home.  When the euphoria of revolution, evaporated the almost 
equally inevitable slime of bureaucracy and reaction re-emerged griped 
the polities of the region.  Sparking another round of proportionately 
destructive Jihads, civil wars, "police actions" by outside powers 
trying to gain influence in the region.  The greatest outcome from this 
period was the destruction of a significant proportion of the world's 
oil refineries and oil fields with the a good proportion of the oil 
distribution lost as well.  Without the price stabilisation mechanisms 
of OPEC caused wild fluctuations in the price of crude but the trend was 
ever downward as new oil barons sought to oversupply the market 
dominated by an industrialising Third World and a First World which 
hadn't forsaken its dependence on hydrocarbons.  This in turn led to a 
rapid depletion of oil reserves elsewhere with the corresponding 
catastrophic ecological effects.  By 2050AD, rising need for energy and 
decreased petroleum supplies had reached the point were true energy 
alternatives were necessary.  The wars had also given impetus for the 
research effort toward utilising energy alternatives most notably in 
France where in 2039AD a workable fusion reactor had been brought 
online.  Rationing of oil and restrictions on its use were hotly debated 
in international forums such as the United Nations.  However, 2090AD 
most of the world's industrialised nations had established their own 
hydrogen distribution networks, and a major proportion of the world's 
energy needs were met by solar power satellites orbiting the Earth.
Emergence of Pax Europa:  In the power vacuum that followed the partial 
collapse of American hegemony.  In stepped the European Union to assert 
its dominance on the world stage in the early parts of the 21st century.  
The first steps were marked by excessive timidity, undue caution, and 
frequent free-rider and defections by the constituent member-states as 
each of the member-state never yielded full sovereignty to the 
supra-European body.  If anything deepening economic integration 
heightened the fragmentation of the nation-states which resulted in a 
strange mixture of pan-European networks and local semi-autonomous 
clusters fashioning a melange of local networks or production nodes 
linked to the global informational economy which cut across 
nation-states.  These zonal clusters encompassed the local state 
(regional and/or municipal governments with their regional hinterland 
intact) forming mini-economies or economic powerhouses producing highly 
specialised niche goods and services sold on the emerging global 
economy.  Each cluster was self-contained, possessing a decree of 
autarky (in terms of, possessing a self-reproducing level of services 
and industry) but, because of specialisation was interdependent with the 
world economy in which each competed to sell their products.  The old 
representation of an autonomous city-state was reborn in the 21st 
century.  These megacities of the 21st century were thus confederated 
together in a variety of means either in the form of one continuous 
urban sprawl or sometimes in decentralized arcologies with production 
linked together by advanced telecommunications.
    The nation-state, as it was made until this moment in time, was 
effectively "hollowed out" much in the way transnational corporation in 
the 1970s were christened as a hollow corporate entity.  This does not 
mean that the nation-state had lost all importance:  far from it.  
Indeed it remained the institutional site and discursive framework for 
political struggles; and even kept much of its sovereignty albeit as a 
judicial fiction reproduced through mutual recognition in the 
international community.  At the same time its capacities to project 
structural power even within its borders was becoming more limited due 
to a complex triple displacement of powers upward, downward, and to some 
extent outward.  Thus some state capacities were transferred to 
pan-regional, pluri-national, or international bodies or to the local 
level inside the nation-state; others were assumed by emerging 
horizontal networks of power - regional and/or local -which by-passed 
central states and linked regions and localities in several societies.  
These shifts associated with the blurring of a state's boundaries and 
growing involvement in decentralised societal guidance rather than 
centralised imperative co-ordination.
    The structural impact on national governments of this global 
centralisation can be called the internationalization of the state.  In 
its most common form is to convert to state in an agency for adjusting 
national economic practices and policies to the perceived exigencies of 
the global economy.  The state becomes a transmission belt from the 
global to the national economy, where heretofore it had acted as a 
bulwark defending domestic welfare from external disturbances.  Power 
within the states becomes concentrated in those agencies in closest 
tough with the global economy - the offices of presidents and prime 
ministers, treasuries, central banks.  Those agencies that are more 
identified with domestic clients - ministries of industries and labour 
ministries become subordinated.
    The new synthesis of globalizing economic relations and the polity 
could be found in the discourse under the rubric of the "new 
constitutionism",  In which, one observed a move toward the construction 
of legal or constitutional devices to remove or insulate the new 
economic institutions from popular scrutiny  or democratic 
accountability. 
    Consequently, the world became divided between the powerful Princes 
and the omnipotent Merchants.  A once vibrant civil society was 
curtailed by increasing austerity which led to an increase by the 
wealthy few for greater "law and order".  Whose agendas felt that much 
of the world's population was superfluous and not needed by the global 
economy.  Which seemed  to have been recognised implicitly (through it 
was never openly) by the principle world institutions.  Policies to 
promote economic development had been largely displaced in favour of 
what can global poor relief and riot control.  As the many struggled for 
"to get by", some in the streets and slums turned to revolutionary, 
religious, nationalist, racist, and other demagogic redemption 
ideologies but the majority turned inward to "Do one's own thing" 
seeking personal salvation which included becoming a "company-man" or, 
legally and illegally feeding off the circuits of power (e.g. cyberspace 
jockeys or mercenaries) or the most common retreat into a wide variety 
of artificial stimulants (be it old fashioned chemical or the emerging 
cyber-drugs which utilised brain implants to stimulate a wide variety 
neural centres of the cerebellum).  
    For many outside observers christened it a "new medievalism" 
(although, the model that may be more appropriate would be the 
Renaissance city-state of Italian peninsula united through a uniform 
ideology of commerce but fragmented sovereignty).  This pattern of 
fragmentation and integration was also to be found elsewhere in the 
world notably on the North American and African continents including, 
the nation-state of China who sought a reunification of greater Chinese 
empire of prior centuries encompassing all Chinese populations of South 
East Asia and lay claim to parts of Oceania.  Notwithstanding, no area 
other than the European continent possessed a sufficient institutional 
framework (or perhaps History) to make it all work.  The Europeans 
sought through a variety of multilateral forums such as the United 
Nations to establish normalised commercial relations through increasing 
intra-bloc trade and calm international relations.  Many regions balked 
and resisted these proposals fearing perhaps a return to colonialism or 
white dominance (although, the racial composition of Europe was rapidly 
changing thanks to the enlargement of the European Union to East 
swallowing the Baltic states and several oblasts of the Russian 
Federation and to South absorbing many of the nations of the Mahib).
The Melbourne Accords:  The world returned to space in the 2040s with a 
vengeance with a desire of every nation and transnational corporation 
wishing to stake a claim to the last frontier.  By the 50s manned 
missions to Luna with preparations being made for Mars were commonplace.  
By the end of the century, Earth orbit was cluttered with solar power 
satellites and orbital factories.  The conquest of space naturally 
produced disputes concerning territoriality, access to orbits, and the 
appropriateness of specific targets in conflicts.  A continuing 
international discussion (transnational corporations were assumed to 
respect the protocols of the agreements - the fact that many did not 
resulted in further tensions) culminated in a series of treaties and 
agreements collectively known as the Melbourne Accords.
    The Melbourne Accords had three major provisions:  Certain orbits 
around were demilitarised and placed under the aegis of an obscure UN 
bureau the United Nations Space Co-ordinating Agency (UNSCA), power 
satellites properly operated and certified were classified as civilian 
targets (rather than military targets), and other worlds (at that time 
Mars, Mercury, and the Jovian satellites) were open to colonisation by 
all nations after a probationary period under the control UNSCA.  The 
UNSCA also required that all new technological developments in the area 
of space sciences have their patents be duly registered with 
organisation which after a 2 year period would be make the technology 
available to all nations and corporations hoping the ensuring 
competition released by the energies of creative destruction would 
result in building the better mousetrap.  Through the leasing of patents 
the UNSCA was able to support itself and commission the building of 
navigation beacons, standardising astrographic maps, regulating space 
traffic, taking responsibility maintaining the Orbital Quarantine 
Command and Control (located on Gateway Station tethered to the 
Beanstalk) and Traffic Control for the inner worlds of the Solar System, 
and act as a platform for less-developed nations to enter the 
colonisation game.  This gradually eased tensions between various 
nations and ethnic groups who could work in a common endeavour under the 
aegis of the United Nations.  
    By the time, Terrans were participating in the full-scale 
colonisation of Mars in 2080AD, they were overtaxing the planet's 
ecology through widespread carelessness from previous long dure of 
industrialisation.  Drastic global warming resulted - a result of 
atmospheric pollution - caused sweeping changes in weather patterns.  In 
turn, these shifts prompted some states to seek food and water by force.  
Through, the initiative of the Europeans, the peace keeping forces of 
the United Nations grew steadily to counter these "food wars," and in 
time propelled the UN into a tool of global governance.
    While Terrans fought each other, Terra's wildlife fought against the 
changing environment.  Widespread climate changes, along with the 
shrinkage of natural habitats, took a toll on Terra's animal and plant 
populations.  Several species died out, unable to adjust to the 
environmental disruption.
    Physical geographical changes were likewise significant.  Unusually 
heavy storms wracked coastlines.  The Arctic icecap all but vanished, 
and the western half of its Antarctic counterpart unsupported by land, 
melted and fell into the sea.

Circa -2438:		In  2086AD, the theoretical basis for a practical star 
drive was established, and by 2100AD (-2418), several research were on 
their way to demonstrating a prototype.  This however was not the Jump 
Drive of Traveller fame but rather a slower more inefficient drive - the 
Shutterwarp Drive which skimmed and skirted the edges of Jump Space 
rather  than fully entering into the dimensions of  Jump Space (akin, 
the idea developed in Asimov's novel Nemesis).  The race for a star 
drive occupied the technological abilities of the major world powers for 
the first half of the century.  In the meantime, many nations were 
actively establishing themselves on the various worlds and worldlets of 
the Solar Systems.
    The first working Starship was produced by the European Space Agency 
in 2136AD, its members shared in the technology and jointly operated the 
ship and its successors.  The first exhibition to Alpha Centauri 
discovered a garden world which was promptly claimed by the nations of 
the ESA (effectively, nilling one of the treaties of the Melbourne 
Accords citing that treaty had validity in Terra's system).  Within 
short order, the Argentine Alliance, Manchuria, Canton and Texas built 
and launched their own Starships to Alpha Centauri, Barnard's Star (btw, 
no Vilani settlement there), and Wolf 359.  Explorations over the rest 
of the century explored to about 20 light-years from Terra, and 
settlements were established on about 10 extrasolar  worlds.  Worlds 
close to Sol sprouted many national colonies (a policy decided by the 
Alpha Centauri War in which the UNSCA reasserted its jurisdiction by 
arbitrating and dictating the terms of the peace between combatants); 
the diversity enabled colonies to concentrate on specific industries and 
trade with others for their needs thereby lessening dependence on the 
founding nation on Terra.  Notwithstanding as nations explored farther 
from Earth, each was able to colonise whole worlds and exploit them 
without competition from other nations.  By 2199AD, the Second Age of 
Exploration was drawing to a close.  Earth had explored parts of a 
sphere out to 20 light years and established colonies dedicated to 
exploiting the resources of many virgin worlds.   And, nowhere had found 
intelligent life or other spacefaring civilisations.  As for the Vilani 
after the return of the survey vessels the "Uradane Heresy" was quickly 
forgotten as the Cassilldani interest the off-beat soap operas waned 
were replaced by superior  Makhidkarun 3D productions.

Circa -2338:		Exploration breeds commerce; territorial discoveries 
naturally reveal products that can be marketed.  Even with the high cost 
of interstellar travel, there are always some products, services, 
metals, and information that can still can be carried at a profit.  With 
the discovery and settlement of star systems beyond Earth, the 23rd 
century was an era of trade.  Thus, the star faring nations built fleets 
to service their colonies.  Even a self-sufficient colony is useless if 
it cannot provide feedback, products, and information.  Hulls carrying 
colonists to the stars are best used when they carry products and 
services on their return voyages.
   Developments on Earth, however, did not come to a standstill because 
of interstellar exploration.  International rivalries, population 
pressures, crime, class conflict, and ideological disputes continued 
unabated.  
    If anything the Stars provided an escape valve diverting conflict 
away from Earth allowing dissidents the chance to band together into 
so-called "Foundations" to build the New Jerusalem among the Stars.  
Naturally, these societies were often authoritarian or  at the very 
least patriarchal in the early phases of colonisation that prompted the 
formation of more Foundations. 
   Easy travel on and off Earth enabled many people to maintain mobile  
lifestyles without a permanent residence.  Some people (explorers, 
Starship crew, orbital industrial workers) found themselves taxed on the 
basis of a geography that had little in common with one's life ladder.  
For that reason, a sense of belonging was being forged out around a 
common humanity rather than what was seen as tribal allegiance to a 
particular nation-state.
    Likewise, a sense of identity was burgeoning among the Spacers and 
Settlers around different Stars that they began to regard as home 
irrespective of the colony's "national" point of origin.
   The United Nations and transnational (who were on their way to being 
trans-planetary corporations) worked hard to standardise networks of 
economic, social, political, and human rights be respected irrespective 
national sovereignty.  The problem, as always, was financing despite the 
introduction of an interstellar currency each nation, colony, and 
sometimes company could still issue its own bank note which was then 
valued against the interstellar currency.  Although, values were, in 
theory, pegged and not allowed to fluctuate beyond certain band widths.  
Currency speculators and debtor governments would cause devaluation so 
as to better the terms of trade and lessen national debt known as 
competitive austerity.  Largely, as in the late 21st century the minor 
currencies revolved around the dominant currencies:  ECU, NAFTA Dollar, 
Yen, and the Rand.
    Another significant impetus for the decline of nationalism was the 
advancement of genetic engineering that permitted primitive cloning 
techniques.  The technology was developed for large generation ships 
which were sent to the Stars from the mid-21st century onward as a cost 
saving venture when Shutterwarp  was too expensive or in its infancy.  
These seedbed colonists spread as if dandelions from the Solar System 
possessed no ties to any national government as they grew "in-virto" on 
the journey or sometimes maintained in Chill Berths for the duration of 
the journey as computers would search out for candidate Garden worlds.  
Upon "landing" colonists were educated by computers in rudimentary Earth 
history and institutions but allowed to develop their own path.  
    Other generation ships were also developed which placed the 
passengers in Cold Berths for the entire duration of the voyage.  These 
individuals did however possess national allegiances and ties to the 
ideas and ideals of their own time.  Sometimes, some national 
governments solved their problem with crime by placing criminals also on 
these generational ships with their memories "wiped" or altered to 
forget their previous life.  Nevertheless, a small number of criminals (
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 265



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller
Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
RE: New Spaceport Completed
Re: Canonicity
Re: New Spaceport Completed
re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Test
General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)
Re: New Spaceport Completed
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 15:19:43 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller

cont.
previous life.  Nevertheless, a small number of criminals (with memories 
intact) also actively bought placement on these ships (on the assumption 
that it was:  "Better to rule in Hell...than to serve in Heaven.").  
When "awakened" these colonists were disorientated as everything they 
knew and cherished lay light years away with no chance of recovery.  
Therefore, it was time to begin afresh albeit with national 
particularities.
    Finally, the other key impetus behind the decline of nationalism was 
the discovery of alien sentient intelligences.
First Contacts:  That humanity would meet other cultures among the stars 
was enviable.  During the second half of the 23rd century, human 
explorers encountered at least six intelligent species 
(Sung/Xiang{2218AD}, Ebers{2256AD}, Pentapods{2251AD}, Vegans{2280AD}, 
Klaxun{2300AD} and the Kafers{2295AD-which represent a special case}), 
three of them space-faring (Pentapods, Sung, Vegans) within the 50 light 
years area centred around Terra.  With these first contacts came 
cultural diversity and alternate paradigms of knowledge.  With academic 
investigation of alien cultures cane new insights into Earth's cultures.  
Products and processes from these in demand on Earth.  And, basic 
information exchange however rudimentary was itself a profitable 
endeavour.
    Further contact with the Sung revealed that their society was based 
upon slavery over the less developed Xiang from a neighbouring star 
system.  This led many Foundations and the tacit consent of some nations 
which leased Starships and crew to the Foundations to lead a moral 
crusade against the Sung.  The Sung who maintained their position was 
non-negotiable resulted in the first interstellar war between Earthlings 
and the Sung in 2241-2243AD.  The Sung surrendered early believing the 
Terrans were in fact the Vilani which following the Sung defiance 
doctrine of Sos-Soon-Atkacharr (the less must give way to the mighty in 
order to learn from them).  Had that not been the case, it is likely 
that the Terrans would have lost unless a xenocidial war would have been 
undertaken against the Sung  and as the war supposedly revolved around 
certain "moral convictions" (excluding, the motive of vast mineral 
wealth of the Xiang homeworld and the unscrupulous nature of certain 
arms manufactures who sought lucrative government contracts) .  Xenocide 
was not an option.  The Sung accepted the conditions of the peace that 
the Terrans had imposed:  planetary sovereignty (Home Rule) for the 
Xiang homeworld, granting of a number of commercial enclaves on each 
world, and binding commercial relations between the Terrans to the Sung 
through forced participation in joint-ventures with Terran 
companies/foundations.  Following, their defeat the Sung following 
custom sent an emissary Coreward into Vilani space believing that 
Cassilldani was the Vilani and consequently the Terrans homeworld the 
informing them of their acceptance of the terms of surrender.  In the 
intervening years, the Vilani regional governor began to dispatch 
heavily cloaked jump capable Starships to monitor the swelling Uradanid.  
No longer content to passively observe the Terrans, the regional Vilani 
High Command formulated a plan involving a pair of alien races to test 
resolve, military strength, and technological capacity of Terrans.  This 
alien race was known as the Kafers.
    The Kafers were a barbaric race that inhabited the far Rimward and 
Trailing edge of the Ziru Sirka.  As barbaric, as they were, they were 
inherently stupid relaying upon certain biochemical processes to 
stimulate intelligence.  The Vilani during First Contact understood this 
and developed synthetic biochemical blocking agents which would return 
the Kafers to a state of passivity.  In the course of time, they also 
learnt the Kafers were dependent upon another alien race - the Yili for 
much of their spacefaring technology.  The Vilani used the Kafers as 
mercenaries but increasingly as prison guards for the prison planets 
maintained Rimward.   The Vilani granted considerable leeway to Kafer 
guards even allowing them to maintain their own sphere of space linked 
together with a primitive jump drive (read again:  Shutterwarp) as long 
as they kept their distance from more Vilani populated space.  In 2250AD 
the Vilani regional High Command (in a highly secret and black project) 
began inculcating and preparing the Kafers for war with the Terrans.  
The Kafers were the perfect tools for the Vilani, the Kafers could be 
relied upon to carry out orders without hesitation, they were expendable 
in the interests of preserving State, and as both the Kafers and the 
Uradane were perfect adversaries for each other As both seemed to have a 
natural proclivity toward unrelenting aggression (without sober 
contemplation), form fractured societies, and seem to have the same 
level of technological development.
    In the meantime, the Terrans felt moderately confident, if not 
downright cocky in their area of space.  Exploration, in spite of that, 
was slowing down due to the natural limitations of Shutterwarp 
technology and astrographic hindrances.  It was felt that perhaps some 
of the alien races may have something to offer to break the 7.7 light 
years barrier.  In the meantime, the search for alternatives has 
commenced.  Namely, the search for dark matter phenomena, such as brown 
dwarfs or rouge planets/proto-stars, artificial wormholes, improved 
Shutterwarp efficiencies, and Shutterwarp tugs.  It was also a period, 
in which Terrans seek to consolidate their gains (as some in the 
Military-Industrial complex realised their victory over the Sung was 
little more than chance) rather than expand with military forces 
sparsely spread on thin tendrils of inhabited worlds called Arms.

- -2232: 		The Kafers strike.  In 2295AD, a research station orbiting 
Arcturus at the far edges of 
Terran space reported contact  with the Starships of an unknown race.  
Attempts at communication were unsuccessful, and the alien vessels left 
the system.  Within three years they returned and swept past the system 
to Eta Bootis system.  The aliens attacked and defeated the fleets there 
and land troops on the colony world of Aurore.  Terrans had its first 
close-up look at the Kafers.
    Reinforcements for the Terrans began to flow further up the line of 
worlds thus far colonised, and eventually, Kafer fleets were driven back 
to Arcturus, leaving ground troops on Aurore to harass the colonists.  
The fighting between the races has continued ever since.  It has become 
obvious that the Kafers do not want peace.  Co-ordinating the Invasion 
is "Triumphant Destiny" none other the regional Vilani senior military 
commander.  Soon the war bogs down into a stalemate with each side 
moving the front back and forward.  In late -2227 (2304AD), "Triumphant 
Destiny" feels enough supply bases have been established and with an 
ample buffer zone allowing a retreat into Kafer space (thus, ultimately 
Vilani space) to mount a full scale assault on Terra itself.  It was at 
this critical conjuncture that dissension breaks out in the Kafer 
command whereby rival factions of the Kafer Associate broke away from 
"Triumphant Destiny" fleet and try to consolidate power in Kafer space.  
Left critically understaffed "Triumphant Destiny" leads the remainder of 
the Kafer fleet into battle around the proximity of Queen Alice's Star 
(in the Battle of Beowulf (after beating back an abortive mutiny attempt 
by his Kafer First Officer - "Pain Giver" that occurred en route).   
Fortunate for the Terrans, a shattering strike against "Triumphant 
Destiny's cruiser causes the power plant to go critical and overload.  
With the loss of the tactical genius of  "Triumphant Destiny", the 
remaining Kafers are confused.  Some fight mercilessly to the end, some 
fight each other, some retreat to safer systems including back into 
Kafer Space.  From -2227 to -2224 (2304-2307AD), the Kafers continue 
engage in sporadic fighting and providing occasional support for ground 
support left over from the Invasion and striking from cleverly hidden 
bases protecting their flank (Kafer space).  The Terrans note the 
decrease in the ferocity of the conflict but continue to push the Kafers 
back to Arcturus where the front would vie back and forth sporadically 
with the Kafers making inroads as much as three systems before Terrans 
could assembly a force strong enough halting the advance.  The High 
Commands of the assembled nations fighting the Kafers, sensed a second 
Invasion force may be assembling beyond "Human Space" therefore, the 
best strategy was to hold the line and leave colonial units to "mop-up" 
remaining Kafer units secluded in Human space.  The lack of a unified 
command and relative success in holding the line beyond which 7.7 light 
years barrier meant that Terrans could do little more than hold 
defensive positions against the intermittent Kafer incursion.
    In the aftermath of the Battle of Beowulf -2227 (2304AD), while 
giving pursuit to the Kafer space fleet back to Kimanjano.  The 
International space task force found hostile ground fire from the 
planetside that allowed the majority of the Kafer fleet to escape 
further up the arm into safe haven of Kafer space.  Realising that a 
"mopping up" dirtside was needed, if efforts to flush out the enemy  the 
international efforts commenced orbital assault against the Kafer ground 
encampments (the first by the Terrans which had traditionally relied 
upon either orbital or ground assault operating independently of each 
other).  In the course of fighting, the victorious Terrans came an 
incinerated remains of a Kafer Crawler ("Shah shuch*").  Not uncommon, 
in a battlefield.  However, inside they found the charred remains of a 
human being in an environmental suit of no known design.  Naturally, 
believing it was a "friendly"  who had been taken prisoner by the 
Kafers.  The autopsy (to aid in determining the identity of the victim) 
revealed that "Kimanjano Man" contained a slightly different DNA 
structure than the human norm.  All this was kept a secret and for only 
the top echelons of the military and political establishment.  Theories 
presented ranged that it was human who was in deed caught in the 
cross-fire and was trying to escape using Kafer equipment (discounted 
because of the sophistication of the design of the environment suit) 
others maintained that it was the product of a rogue Foundation, such as 
the Provolutionists (who were known to "improve" the human condition 
through genetic or cybernetic means) to that this was Rousseau who 
represented a human abducted by aliens centuries ago who had woken from 
a Cold Sleep.  The" Mystery of Kimanjano Man" would remain that until, 
the Terrans would meet the Vilani and until that time, "Kimanjano Man" 
would remain on an isolated Australian biological research station on 
Luna frozen in a cold berth.
    The real story behind "Kimanjano Man" is as following:  There 
existed an isolated Vilani quasi-religious sect known as the Aiag cult 
which existed from the time that the Vilani took to the Stars.  It was a 
monotheistic religion that held that great warm, loving, Mother-God, lay 
somewhere Rimward of Vland among the Stars.  Furthermore, it maintained 
that Vland was not true homeworld of all humanity (a somewhat heretical 
idea in any epoch prior to confirmation of the Solomani Hypothesis) and 
that all Vilani ought to strive to the embrace of the Mother to live in  
a condition of everlasting love.  At various conjunctures of the history 
of the Vilani, this religion provided a useful outlet for a number of 
people to embrace the explorer ethic ("questing for Mother")...it is 
even said that some of the faith adherents included a number of Vilani 
Igsiirdi prior to it being declared a heresy, whereby the disciples were 
banished to Rimward frontier of the Empire.  Banishment caused it to 
become a secret society throughout Ziru Sirka when a young 
impressionable Vilani (and devout adherent to Aiag) navy officer had 
heard the discussion of using the Kafers, he became convinced that the 
Terrans were emissary angels from the Mother.  Unfortunately, for him he 
was captured by the Kafers before receiving communion with the angels 
and he did not bother to learn Kafer.

- -2224:		On September 23, 2307AD famed Czechoslovak astronomer Elena 
Asweathova discovered 
evidence of a brown dwarf in a fairly barren region of space just beyond 
the American Arm.  However, the strategic initiative made possible by 
her find sent a shock wave through command staff of America, Germany, 
and Australia.  BD-111 094307's astrographic location offered units from 
the American arm a path enabling them tend-run  the current French Arm 
salient of the Kafer conflict.  Instead, units the route that passed 
through BD 111 094307 could enter the rear flank of suspected Kafer 
space by emerging at system SS-27 6854.  This attack from the rear 
option helped to give BD-111 094307 its lasting nickname - it was indeed 
the back door into Kafer space.
     It was also noted in the various national intelligence and forensic 
agencies that signs of a non-Kafer species had been discovered on the 
wreckage of Improved Alpha-class battleship that had been battered into 
non- functioning junk at the Battle of Beowulf.  The clues recovered 
were fairly sparse, mostly food and body tissue that had virtually been 
discorporated by explosions and drilled into nearby plastic components.  
Speculation immediately centred on the existence of a mystery race that 
served the Kafers in some technical capacity.  The nations of the 
Alliance fighting in the French Arm immediately made their combined 
discoveries of Back Door and the mystery race known to heads of other 
nations.  The rest of the other nations tended to agree with the 
analysis of the Alliance but counselled not to open a second front using 
the Back Door not without a global consensus.  However, it was felt that 
more information  was needed regarding the mystery race and the Back 
Door offered the ideal way to attempt to scout it out.  In the hopes of 
brokering a coalition against the Kafers, or at the very least a 
separate peace.  Thus, Operation Backdoor was conceived.  Which would 
form the basis for extended reconnaissance of Kafer space for a possible 
counter-Invasion.
In -2222 (2309AD) the scoutship, Cat's Feet, comes across the garden 
homeworld of the Yili on SS-27 6854  (Ssuushni'a).  Yili cannot agree 
that the complete destruction of the Kafer race is necessary or even 
desirable.  A number of Yili delegates, agree to accompany the Cat's 
Feet back to Terran space.  The Yili have no knowledge of the larger 
Vilani Imperium looming further Coreward.  Following the success of  
Operation Backdoor, further reconnaissance missions are commissioned 
through the Backdoor as a way to break the stalemate on the French Arm.
    An Invasion plan -2221 (2310AD) is drawn up in which a pre-emptive 
strike with a tailored biogenetic weapon would be made against the Kafer 
homeworld using Backdoor then sending reinforcements arcing across the 
Arcturus gap.  A bloodlust and an appetite for revenge on the part of 
colonial fleet, arm their ships with Thermonuclear missiles (H-bombs) to 
blast the Kafers out of existence.  Late 2310AD, the Kafer homeworld is 
struck with the full intensity of a human counter-Invasion lacking 
strategic leadership from either the Vilani or their own kind, the Kafer 
palisade falls to pieces.  Ground forces bring together the remaining 
Kafers into large reservations.  What's more, a fervour and zeal 
spearheaded by colonial forces lead to attacking the concentration camps 
with nukes.  It was estimated that 85% of the Kafer population died in 
the onslaught.  The reaction of the Yili to the holocaust of the Kafers 
and knowing many of their own kind would have exterminated in the 
strikes, the Yili begin to commit mass suicide.  Finding that their Yili 
allies are literally dying on them, the attacks subside and culling the 
Kafers into reservations dispossessed of technology of any kind; the 
Terrans stopped their nuclear campaign.  Work commenced on biogenetic 
approach as a means of limiting the Kafer population and rendering them 
"stupid".  The Yili population also declined to 85% of its previous 
number stabilised in part to a large infusion of antidepressant drugs 
supplied by the Terrans.  The Yili are left disoriented and with an odd 
assortment of castes left.  The Terrans now the effective masters of 
Kafer space went on to incorporate this vast swath of territory into 
their own domain.  Still lacking an effective means to cross the 7.7 
light years barrier, the Terrans seek alternatives.  During the course 
of the war, the United Nations steadily grew in power and responsibility 
as it promoted itself as a sort of International High Command under 
whose aegis co-ordination of battle fleets and troops could be 
undertaken.

- -2211:		In - 2211 (2320AD), a Beta Yili affectionately nicknamed "Bert"  
and a research station
(whose acronym was ERIN) together with decoding the Eber dance, in Alpha 
Centuri system succeeds in building a prototype Jump Drive.  Finally, 
the Stars beyond the local neighbourhood are open to Humanity.  At 
first, it was thought that they stumbled upon an inefficient Shutterwarp 
but when it is demonstrated that a gravity well need not be present to 
discharge its engines the Jump Drive becomes more widespread.  
Similarly, the discoveries lead to harnessing of the graviton thereby 
laying the basis for artificial gravity and reactionless thrusters.  It 
is not long before the Terrans turn the sights to further Coreward 
expansion.  In -2201 (2330AD) in an isolated system in the Diaspora 
sector, an American expedition comes across an isolated Vilani mining 
station...  The Americans understanding the significance of their 
discovery bypassed United States Space Command and went on to United 
Nations Organisation.  Terrans found themselves sharing the cosmos with 
a vast ancient empire of alien humans - the Vilani.  Their empire 
spanned hundreds of light years.  Terrans were awe inspired, bewildered, 
and frightened.  When reports began to drift back to the regional Vilani 
governor, she never conceded Vlani role (nor, was it widely known) in 
Kafer war and viewed Terrans with paternalistic intentions.  As she 
sought to co-opt the Terrans, so as to gain greater favour in the 
Imperial household who had knowledge of the existence of the Terrans 
(dealing with minor races was a local concern after all).
 
- -2191:		In 2350AD, a combination of Manifest Destiny, unreasoning zeal, 
war fever, and racism (why 
 should "alien" humans govern the cosmos) reached a critical mass 
initiated the First Interstellar War with an almost religious fervour 
and crusade to wrest the Stars from the Vilani.  It was sheer chance, 
once again, that the Terrans won as the Technological level of the 
Terrans never exceeded TL10.5 (albeit TL10.9 in some areas) and was very 
heterogeneous spread amongst the different nations/blocs and colonies 
whilst the Vilani Imperium was a uniform TL11.9 encroaching TL12 in some 
areas.  What follows is Traveller cannon...the UN begins to organise 
itself into a true world government in response to the need to central 
resources for the protracted war effort against the Vilani.
 
- -2018:		2500AD Nth Interstellar War ends thanks to the Terran 
development of Jump-3 Drive, Terrans swarm across Ziru Sirka.

 -976:		3542AD  End of the Rule of Man.

AND, THE REST AS THEY SAY IS HISTORY.

1210:  A long forgotten minor race emerges returns back to space after 
centuries of Solomani and Imperial oppression to  wreak havoc.   The 
emerging Children of Earth face an old foe whose destiny they believe 
lies in retaking the Stars.   Against the backdrop  the confusion of the 
virus, the petty feuds, etc ...the Kafers are back.


Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:09:25 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:(was Nastiest Monster)

At 03:10 pm 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>One last one I'll mention is insanity.  This is especially relevant to
>sophont baddies, of course, but can apply to animals and such as well.  It
>basically means that the PCs can't predict the behavior of their opponent.

	I *really* like this one when applied to a PC ... but you've got to
have a good player doing it. Actually, I've had fun *being* that
player.

	Using players as baddies can be extremely effective when you've got
people who are there for fun and roleplaying, instead of keeping
score.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:18:51 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

At 12:17 pm 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>This isn't the scary part, per se.  That part starts when you find
>yourself facing a classroom of them.
>
>Kenji
>
>On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> forgive me; but I saw this and HAD to post it (it puts new meaning into
>> grognard and helps to explain the problems in the gaming hobby...); Seth
>> 
>> Read it and weep:
>> >
>> >The people starting college this fall across the nation were born in
>> >1980.

	I really felt bad watching "Apollo 13" ... and the folks sitting
behind me didn't already know how it was going to end ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:27:15 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

> IIRC, MCS allows G's to be assigned to either evasion or maneuver*; 

> * I could be thinking of the aiming spinal mount step, but the principle
>is fairly sound even if the rules syste, doesn't support it.

You remember correctly; ships split their acceleration between evasion,
maneuver, and aiming their spinal mount. 

THere is a high-guard-like "reserve" - 2 range bands farther away than the main
bodies - but no rules for bypassing, etc. As you say, by the time you're
getting into sneaking past enemy fleets you probably need a hexgrid.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:29:59 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

Date sent:      	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:17:34 -0500 (EST)
From:           	Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>

>This isn't the scary part, per se.  That part starts when you find
>yourself facing a classroom of them.

No, its when you find yourself _in_ a classroom of them :*>


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:47:20 -0600 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE: New Spaceport Completed

> SD Mooney wrote:
<snip>
>Arrw.... and I was going to join in.
>
>Has anyone noticed how David Smart keeps on posting really interesting news
>stories?
>
>Thanks David!
>
>Dom

You are quite welcome. Being a Gnarly Old Fart(tm)
wannabe, I've noticed that alot of Traveller is
starting to/has come true in the Real World(tm).

A world-wide communications net, cybernetic tongues,
hand-sized communicators, battledress, exploring planetary
surfaces with probes from orbit, computer chips that can
link to a human brain, ground-based laser/particle beams
that can take out orbital satellites..kinda neat to
actually be living it.

BTW, Clif, apologies for not providing the location of
the spaceport. I didn't remember seeing it in the article.
ABC.com should still be carrying the story in their
archives, though.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:01:47 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

In a message dated 3/9/99 2:58:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, dom@cybergoths.u-
net.com writes:

<<  I'm sad the storyline ended but aren't really
 bothered by the death of the rules system. >>

	I'd agree with that sentiment entirely.   Every time I pick up the TNE books
I have I really enjoy the background material, but when I try to read the
rules my eyes glaze over and I find myself waking up with my face in a bowl of
soup.  I've played CT, MT and T4 but could never work myself up to use the TNE
rules.  That's one of the reason I liked T4 so much, the basic scenario
- --birth of a new Empire was the same, but the T4 rules felt more like real
Traveller to me.  
	I suppose if I had had my wish the MT story line (Hard Times etc) would have
continued and the factions would have estblished independent states, but o
well.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:41:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

>You are quite welcome. Being a Gnarly Old Fart(tm)
>wannabe, I've noticed that alot of Traveller is
>starting to/has come true in the Real World(tm).
>
>computer chips that can
>link to a human brain,

SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!  Whoa, Nelly!  I haven't heard of this!  Details!  I
want details....

>BTW, Clif, apologies for not providing the location of
>the spaceport.

No problemo.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:47:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
>
>Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>  Imperium is meant to be a much simpler game, and its battles need to play
>much faster as the campaign is the actual point of the game. High Guard is
>intended for use in resolving individual engagements, and thus allows itself
>the luxuries of dozens (if not hundreds) of dice rolls by major combatants 
>each turn and detailed damage resolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Note that my idea wouldn't change the die rolling much at all, just give
>better defined roles to things like Destroyers and Fighter Squadrons.

  The suggested fighter rules from JTAS #14 would now be largely obsolete.
Arguably, escorts and fighters have defined roles in HG, it's just not meant
to be truly significant in determining the result of the exchange of the 
main fleet elements (although apparently really sick escort designs are key
to scrubbing off enemy spinal factors).

>It might also speed up the game a bit, as there will be a lot of massive
>overmatching going on. Destroyer screening against a battleship better
>have some emergency agility in the pipes...

  The problem (asides from distaste at the prospect of yet more attempts
to return fighters to their dominant role evidenced in SW :| ) is that
the "overmatching" copied from _Imperium_ (a game wherein a fleet action
is meant to take 5-15 minutes) implies very short weapons ranges and a
movement mechanism that involves near-teleportation (compared to weapons
ranges) by the ships of the initiative advantaged fleet. It might work
tolerably well for an age-of-sail game, though.

...
>Seriously, I assume you mean the "reality" of some published SF books
>involving fleet combat, right?

  Of course not. Real world physics as modified by whatever
Traveller-specific technologies; i.e. Newtonian physics apply to combat
operations if a given
rules set goes to that level of detail.

>I don't think play balance would change so much as fleet construction
>and deployment. The victory might go to more than the biggest guns
>and the best ship designs.

  Which, as per the long-running "Fighters & Carriers vs Battleships" thread
on SF-CONSIM, is slightly absurd. Given Traveller hardware and simple geometry
fighters can not threaten a battle line directly, and the attempt to change
that requires a weapon system analogous to real world torpedoes or anti-shipping
missiles, which simply do not exist in (OTU) Traveller.

...
>Much as I like the simplicity of it, what sensible reality is modelled by
>having fleets line up like age of sail men-of-war? Space is so big that

  Which is precisely what _Imperium_ does; _High Guard_ appears to assume
that an entire fleet can be deployed with in a volume that would fit within
effective range of an enemy also deployed throughout a similar volume. As
such, any ship can engage any other target(s), and the entire thing could
be moved to a hex-based system with a minimum of trouble. _Imperium_ could
not be meaningfully played as a mini's game because the assumptions in its
combat system are meant to be simple for playing speed rather than realism.

>lines of battle will only meet by mutual agreement. Modifying the Imperium
>line of battle system adds an entire new dimension of squadron construction
>and battle tactics to what HG essentially leaves as a number-crunching
>slugfest.

  Roughly speaking, Jutland was a number-crunching slugfest, and strategic
necessity dictates that a battle must occur at some point.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:29:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
...
>2) Sensor limitations. You are 90% sure that you're being painted by
>a squadron of fightercraft. It's also possible that you're being lined up on
>by a cruiser's spinal mount. It will take you 20 minutes (one HG turn)
>to be sure, and that's time you have to spend maneuvering to or away
>from contact. Next turn you can break off from the surviving fighters
>and probe again for a break in the enemy line.

  How about "aim own spinal mount at cruiser*" and "vaporize insolent little
bugs with turret mounts"? It's pretty safe to assume that the enemy can detect
me from his own platform, at least under HG2 and in most Traveller games.

 * IIRC, MCS actually allows for this to be a use of maneuver-G's, and it's
about time that someone covered it.

  An exploration of how the BB you describe would "maneuver away from contact"
might also be enlightening, as high maneuver and low opportunity cost of
employment are supposed to be the only things fighters really have going for
them.

...
>acquiring leads on new contacts. If a Battleship doesn't want to tangle
>with a fighter squadron, it must disengage in time-consuming combat
>mode - because if it points its nose towards the retreating transports
>and thrusts straight-line and flat out, you could hit it with a dumb
>missile and a pocket calculator. 

  Why not just plow right past them? Both sides will score a higher proportion
of hits than the standard HG2 tables would indicate (witness the close attack
rules suggested in JTAS #14) but the battleship (or cruiser...) will survive
while the rather expensive fighters will be scrap. At closer ranges agility
would also count for less.

  Actually, at a sufficiently close range the potential number of hits that
could be scored would approach ROF, which is tolerably well covered in the
2300 AD space combat module _Star Cruiser_ - a bigger ship may choose to
eliminate a smaller element by simply over-running it and taking an additional
fire phase with available weapons.

>This makes me think of a High Guard battle taking place over massive
>areas of the solar system, with each match-up being a few minutes of the
...
>disadvantage - he will locate your ships with his scouts, and choose where
>his battleship strikes.

  Interesting. What happens if only one side deconcentrates its battle
squadrons (which is what they're for, of course) in the above example?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:24:57 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Test

TEST

Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:37:57 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)

A fellow Traveller fan, Ron Brown, and I have delved into a project that
should prove fun, if a little costly.  Ron is a computer professional and
has hired a dedicated server to devote to his favorite SFRPG.  At the same
time he will have a chance to practice some development skills that he is
hoping to perfect.  For my part, I am just a fan who wants to see this
project blossom.  Here's the idea:

This new place is www.downport.com , a domain (name) and server (at a large
hosting company) dedicated to Traveller.  The project belongs to all players
/ fans who want to enjoy and/or contribute to it.  If you have developed
some good web content for the game and are tired of having it lost at the
end of a forty character URL in a corner of the Internet, check out
Downport.com as a possible new host for it.

Or perhaps you know of some good stuff that someone publish back along, but
it's languishing unattended on a university server somewhere.  We'd like to
track that person down and get permission to transfer it over, maybe
updating it in the process.

Some of us have our own pages on the web, many on "free" hosting services.
It's good to have our material close by while we're developing it.  But
there may be a day in the future, when we are working on other projects,
that the time comes to enshrine the finished project at a permenent address.

Then again, maybe you just don't want to bother with all that is involved in
having your own site and would like to have Downport.com set it to HTML from
the get go.

All of these are valid scenarios that meet our idea of what a Traveller
domain should be.  Perhaps it will become a hub from which much of the
Traveller content on the web spokes out.  Or maybe a museum, or even the
"Encyclopedia Galactica" of Traveller (that's our dream).

Today it's an infant.  Please take a look and give us your opinion on how we
should raise this baby.  You can forward comments to me, to Ron's webmaster
link on the pages, or to the TML for discussion if appropriate for this foru
m.

Thank you.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Colin Michael
aka "SwordWorlder"


_______________________________
               www.downport.com
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:10:58 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

>>computer chips that can
>>link to a human brain,
>
>SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!  Whoa, Nelly!  I haven't heard of this!  Details!  I
>want details....

Even better, there's a guy (who happens to be paralysed) whose using _thought_
to control a computer.
He has electrodes taped to his head, and he can move a mouse pointer around
the screen and select things with it.

 More precisely, he's consciously regulating the current flow in a small part
of his brain by "thinking" in a way that causes the electrode to activate and
more the pointer.

Quite apart from it's implications for control circuitry, think what this
means for "training" brain usage. It's an extension on the old bio-feedback
techniques, but one that could allow people to practice "thinking" in a
particular way.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:54:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

At 11:51 AM 3/9/99 EST, you wrote:

>>The people starting college this fall across the nation were born in
>>1980.

I j=have a ten-year-old half-sister in law.  A few weeks ago, I was helping
her install some programs on her computer, and told her how Craig used to
have to ride his bike several miles to use a computer at the ByteShop.
When I told her just how powerful that computer was (8k of RAM, IIRC) She
looked at me with the exact same look I gave my fathers' "walking to school
during the Blitz" stories.

Damn, 32 can be quite old, can't it?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #265
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 266



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Fighter Screens
Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: June bugs
Re: Lensmen series
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: Fighter Screens
Downport Site Idea
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
GT: Solomani and Darrians
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #265
Re: Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller
Re: FUDGEing Traveller
MT Software request...
Re: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Advances)
CT Task System for BITS products
Helping to find alien civilizations...
Re: CT Task System
Re: Fighter Screens

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:13:16 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
..
>2) Sensor limitations. You are 90% sure that you're being painted by
>a squadron of fightercraft. It's also possible that you're being lined up 
on
>by a cruiser's spinal mount. It will take you 20 minutes (one HG turn)
>to be sure, and that's time you have to spend maneuvering to or away
>from contact. Next turn you can break off from the surviving fighters
>and probe again for a break in the enemy line.

  How about "aim own spinal mount at cruiser*" and "vaporize insolent 
little
bugs with turret mounts"? It's pretty safe to assume that the enemy can 
detect
me from his own platform, at least under HG2 and in most Traveller games.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think my idea works if the rules allow some kind of difference between
"suspected contact" and "fully realized firing solution". Remember,
first spinal mount hit wins. Several possible contacts get passed up to
CIC from sensor ops, which ones are real, and which ones have spinal
mounts on them? Which ones can you safely ignore?

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  An exploration of how the BB you describe would "maneuver away from 
contact"
might also be enlightening, as high maneuver and low opportunity cost of
employment are supposed to be the only things fighters really have going 
for
them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The failure to break contact would (eventually) clue the BB commander
in to what he was up against. The BB commander then starts treating
the contacts as fighters - and dies as one of the suspected contacts turns
into another capital ship with a spinal mount, just arrived into engagement
range while the fighters were keeping the BB busy.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>acquiring leads on new contacts. If a Battleship doesn't want to tangle
>with a fighter squadron, it must disengage in time-consuming combat
>mode - because if it points its nose towards the retreating transports
>and thrusts straight-line and flat out, you could hit it with a dumb
>missile and a pocket calculator.

  Why not just plow right past them? Both sides will score a higher 
proportion
of hits than the standard HG2 tables would indicate (witness the close 
attack
rules suggested in JTAS #14) but the battleship (or cruiser...) will 
survive
while the rather expensive fighters will be scrap. At closer ranges agility
would also count for less.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My idea makes the assumption that the standard HG2 hit and
damage tables apply to ships that are defending themselves, and that
some kind of bad things happen to ships that don't - thus forcing warships
to engage, rather than ignore. Another sub combat inspired idea - if
two subs are sneaking around each other, the one that goes to full power
to get away or catch a different target is usually the one that dies.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Interesting. What happens if only one side deconcentrates its battle
squadrons (which is what they're for, of course) in the above example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Good question. I'm thinking something along the lines of expensive
ships, meat grinders, and a reluctance to dump all your ships into a pot
with all the enemy ships and gamble it all at one go.

Evenly matched fleets should be a rarity. No sane admiral is going to
dump an outmatched fleet into the middle of a toe-to-toe slugging match
if he has any alternatives. If the smaller fleet can't jump away, or can't 
entirely give up the system, it might disperse for Space Denial duties.
(Space denial: I don't control it, but I can still make you
pay dearly for using it.). The bigger fleet goes a-hunting, but doesn't
have the ability to send everyone after each enemy detachment.
The smaller fleet might be able (with good fleet tactics) to arrange some
locally superior firepower.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:29:38 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

For the reality mavens out there, realize that I'm working on a game
abstraction, not a precise simulation method.  A lot of things are 
abstracted in High Guard (such as ECM/ECCM capabilites) - I'm looking
for a way to abstract some fleet maneuvers beyond "line your ships up and 
shoot at each other". Screening elements. Forcing the enemy into 
premature deployment. Concentration of force, tactical initiative.
You know, *stuff*. <g>

I think the biggest part to get right is how each side constructs their
Commit Order - the order in which ships/squadrons are offered for 
match-up. The effect I want is that the faster, larger, better led fleet
will have more choices than the slower, smaller, poorly led fleet.
Coming up with an elegant mechanic for it is another story entirely.

Walt Smith
- -----------------------------------
"To the untrained eye, fleet engagements are a simple matter of lining up
the battlecruisers and blasting the enemy ships to wreckage. To the 
experienced fleet admiral, however, there are levels to each engagment, 
points of decision where the proper deployment of a Destroyer can tip the 
scales..."         -------- excerpt from Dhan Dhularmi's intro to
                            _Fleet Tac: Exercises and Historical Examples_
                          (Imperial Navy Academy Press, 34-985)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:00:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: June bugs

In mail you write:

> revtks wrote:
>> 
>> >Ob Traveller:  Has anyone tried saddling a PC party with
>> >responsibility for children for an adventure?
>> 
>> Children??  Ack!  I think we've found the winner for nastiest NPC/Monster 
> :)

> Actually, I always thought that the movie "Mercury Rising"
> would make a great adventure, however, i think that my
> players would just drug the kid into submission or stuff him
> in a low berth or something

Well, "The Ransom of Red Chief" is always a wonderful model. For those
not familiar with it, some would-be gangsters kidnap a kid from a
moderately well off family, figuring to hold him for ransom.

Alas, the kid is a sort of cross between Calvin (of Calvin & Hobbes)
and Dennis the Menace. The response from the parents is pretty much
"*You*'ve got him, *you* keep him!" In the end, the bad guys wind up
paying the parents to take the kid back!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:03:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lensmen series

In mail you write:

>> 1. They aren't that short.
>
> But, they aren't that long, especially compared to modern books.  Why is it
> that in the 90's a book has to be big enough that it doensn't easily fit in
> your back pocket?
>
>> 2. They are in Trade paperback size, on *good* paper (possibly acid
>>    free, I don't recall)
>
> I'm assuming here you mean the format larger than a standard paperback.  If
> they went with that size I wish they'd simply gone Hardback and charged the
> extra.  I hate oversized paperbacks!
>
>> 3. They include the illustrations from the original Fantasy Press
>>    editions. 
>
> Ah, finally a good thing.  Based on this point I'll actually have to find
> them and check them out.  Having put together a set a couple years ago used,
> I really doubt I'll bother spending the $150 though.  I'd rather spend that
> on GURPS or something else.

Try $90. There are only 6 books. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:06:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:29 +0000 Charles Prevatte
> <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>At 08:20 PM 3/9/99 +1300, you wrote:
>>>as shown in "The Sea Statue" and one of the Man-Kzin war books, and
>>>"World of Ptavs", or perhaps getting on the wrong side of a Pak
>>>Protector from a different clan/race ( "Protector" )
>>
>>Have not read this, What book/series is this "Protector" from?
>>
>
> Pak Protectors are another creation of Larry Niven.  IIRC, the most
> detailed work is called Protector or Pak Protector.  You DONT want to
> mess with a Protector.  They are absolutely, totally, unequivocally
> devoted to their clan, which consists of juvenile Protectors (which are
> also, BTW, the ancestors of humans).  When a Pak reaches a certain age,
> IIRC, they begin to alter their form, I wont try to go into details, read
> Niven, and the Protectors will do ANYTHING to protect their clan.  They
> often die if their clan is wiped out.  They are also very long lived
> (centuries IIRC) and extremely intelligent and cunning.  They could build
> a nuke out of a Van De Graf generator and a pile of dirty socks.  They
> are also totally ruthless regarding any opposing clan (or anything else
> they consider an enemy).  If you get away, they'll travel the length of
> the galaxy to get you if necessary.  In a slow boat.  Alone.  

You forgot to mention that a Protector is *fanatically* devoted to
his/her bloodline. If they are wiped out, he/she may be able to
transfer the protector instinct to his *race*. Childless protectors (ie
racially devoted) have been known to decide that a race restricted to
its own planet but that has killed people who have landed there, is
enough of a danger to the Protector's race to arrange for an asteroid
impact the wipe out the planet-bound race.

Paranoia is a normal state of being for a Protector. But a sort of
modified paranoia. They assume that all creatures not of their
bloodline/species are a danger to their bloodline/species until
*proven* otherwise.

I will mention *one* of the many changes that occur when a hominid
makes the transition from breeder to Protector. A Pak breeder is about
as bright as a chimp. Maybe. A Pak protector is more intelligent than
any normal human. 

One description put it this way. For any given task, and set of tools,
there's an optimal answer. A Protector will see this answer as soon as
it considers the problem. 

This means that for a protector, "free will" is a rather inapplicable
concept. 

> Two PCs in a bar.
>
> PC1:  Whats that funny lookin critter with no hair and a beak?
> PC2:  I dunno, those Aslan said it was a Pak, and left in a big hurry.
> PC1 (who's heard about Pak):  OH @#!++!!!!!!!!!  UHH, BARKEEP, TAB
> PLEASE, AHH, HECK, HERE, THIS SHOULD COVER IT (throws wad of money at
> bar) COME ON!!!!!!

> and he drags PC2 out the door, and they head for the starport pronto.
>
> You DONT #^@$ with a Pak Protector!!!!

In standard Traveller Universes, I'd expect that the Protectors would
have learned that trying to wipe out star faring species was
counter-productive. On the other hand, they'd have also taught the
other star-faring species that messing with Pak is a *bad* idea. 

Hmmm. In a Traveller universe that contains Pak & Protectors, that
could be why Grandfather left. He found out about them and wasn't
willing to see how they'd react to his messing with their relatives
(humaniti).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:21:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

In mail you write:

>>BTW, my vote for nastiest nasty is Christopher Rowley's "Vang"
>>Especially the Battlemaster form.
>>
>>IIRC, the "heroes" _never_ beat this nasty, they just finally found it
>>after it had committed suicide once it had determined the rest of it's
>>race had been destroyed, having chased it all over the universe,
>>always being two steps behind.
>>
>>The "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" phrase is even
>>more appropriate for Vang than for Aliens. In the first Vang novel
>> "The Vang", which was not their first appearance, but if I start
>>talking about all the wonderful idea's in "Starhammer" I won't stop,
>>just read it ! )  the only reason human civilization survived first
>>contact is that the Military form of the Vang made one fundamental
>>mistake, it assumed the population was native and therefore did not
>>look for, and immediately seize, the starport.

That reminds me of one of Eric Frank Russell's short stories. The super
aliens grab a human, hook him up to some sort of "truth detector", and
start pumping him for info about his race's capabilities. 

He realizes that they think that humans are native to the system they
picked him up in. So he starts feeding them statements that are
absolutely true, but that mislead them greatly. For example, they ask
about population. He tells them the approximate population of his
homeworld. And then goes on to so say that he's not sure of the total
population of his species, but that it's around 100,000 times the
population of "this planet". 

When they ask about his age (or was it lifespan), he mentions that when
he was born his homeworld had significant icecaps. The colony planet
rather obviously hasn't had such for at least 20 or 30 thousand years.
:-)

I forget *how* he convinced them that he didn't need a starship to move
between systems. Probably the fact that the colony planet had no
starships combined with more fast talking.

Anyway, by the time they were done interrogating him, *they* were
sweating bullets and apologizing...

> force than a monster, totally implacable.  Battle dress troops would just
> give the "Vang" better armor and weapons.  YIKES!  "Vang" combat forms IN
> Battle dress.  I'm outa' here!!!

I haven't read the Vang books, just the cover blurbs. Still, I can
think of some good ones. How about Starkiens from Gordon Dickson's
"Wolfling"? 

>>Of course my second nastiest baddy would be a toss up between Niven's
>>Slavers and Tnuctpin (sp?)
>
> How could you use this in a campian?  They unstasis and control everybody in
> sight or everyboby in the system if they have an amplifier helmet.

Psi shielding should work ok. And they likely have a range limit. Also,
as we learned in "World of Ptavvs" that was that they first appeared in,
Slavers are *dumb*.

Tnictipun(sp) are sneaky bastards. 

>>as shown in "The Sea Statue" and one of the Man-Kzin war books, and
>>"World of Ptavs", or perhaps getting on the wrong side of a Pak
>>Protector from a different clan/race ( "Protector" )
>
> Have not read this, What book/series is this "Protector" from?

Niven's "Known Space" series, same as the Slaver's and Tnuctipun.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:39:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

In mail you write:

> forgive me; but I saw this and HAD to post it (it puts new meaning into
> grognard and helps to explain the problems in the gaming hobby...); Seth

>>They have no idea that Americans were ever held hostage in Iran.

Hey, how many of *you* are aware that our presence in Lebanon (when the
Marine Barracks got blown up) was the *second* time we'd been doing
"peacekeeping" in Lebanon IN THIS HALF OF THE CENTURY!

Or that we fought with Korea late in the 1800s (it may have even been
the early 1900s, I don't have my references handy)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:15:19 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:
>
[my bit]
> >A battleship captain wouldn't care about them at 
> >all, but his screen of cruisers and destroyers 
> >might, leaving the enemy cruisers and destroyers 
> >free to attack _his_ support ships.
> 
>   Quite possibly, except that the degraded screening elements will
>   still
> have their heavy anti-ship batteries available (spinal mounts and
> whatever else a given design system allows). 

Under MCS, surface hits (all that a fighter can really do against 
large opponents) can degrade spinal mounts by damaging the 
aperture, reduce power available to the ship by damaging radiators 
and most crucially can destroy sensors - thus eliminating the ships 
ability to fire any weapons.

[Pause to look at the MCS tables]

A good sized TL15 fighter laser system when used by a squadron 
will (on an average roll) inflict a surface hit on a ship of up to 2 
million tons. On smaller ships the squadron will inflict multiple 
and/or heavy/critical surface hits. And providing they are sensible 
enough to stay out of point blank range, the capital ship will 
(barring gunnery skills of 6 or more) be quite literally unable to hit 
them.

In my book, that makes fighters a useful asset in a military action.
Of course, this only applies when using Bruce's MCS, and YMMV


Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 
IMTU 1.0 tc+ tm+ tn- t4+ ru@ ge++(-) 3i+ jt- au+ ls+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:46:05 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Downport Site Idea

One possible option for Downport.com that may prove interesting to those of
us with websites that we DO NOT want to move would be the ability to host a
simple HTML Frameset at DOWNPORT... We could point the contents to our
current sites... and maintain the sites at their CURRENT location.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:53:01 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>>Seriously, I assume you mean the "reality" of some published SF books
>>involving fleet combat, right?
>
>  Of course not. Real world physics as modified by whatever
>Traveller-specific technologies; i.e. Newtonian physics apply to combat
>operations if a given
>rules set goes to that level of detail.

As long as we're debating physics, _none_ of the existing Traveller rules
really model the effects of strategic in-system maneuvering. All of them
have fleets on essentially matched courses, slugging it out.  If you
expand to a strategic level, battles become a series of passes at
relatively high speeds, as squadrons maneuver to pass close to the enemy,
then return for another pass (or keep going).

The exceptions will be battles for a 'stationary' location, like a planet
or asteroid mine. 


<start non-canon>
Suppose that fighters, instead of being small and hard-to-spot, are
deliberately very visible, meant to imitate the signature of larger
warships. Then when the squadron closes, the enemy has only a brief time
to decide which ship to shoot at, so many shots will hit fighters rather
than more important warships, which lets teh warships escape for another
pass.

This _does_ reduce fighter pilots from 'trained killers' to 'fancy
targets', of course :-)
<end non-canon>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 05:45:23 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT: Solomani and Darrians

Does anyone know if SJG plans a Solmani and Darrians book? It isn't 
listed on the SJ Web page "wish list"

Mike McKeown
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:58:11 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #265

>Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:41:04 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9903/05/x.33.update/index.html
CNN has some info on the spaceport.
				Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:27:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Contribution to Milieu 21 or Need for Integrated Traveller

Overall, your 2300/OTU timeline integration looks very good.  I like 
the written style, and the level of development.  While I doubt that 
the OTU is going to change to fit it, I can see a lot of potential in 
it as an alternate TU.  Do you, perhaps, have further information on 
your creation online somewhere?  I would be interested in reading 
more.  :)

Thanks,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:39:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: FUDGEing Traveller

Thanks for the excellent post Eris! (I was the one who asked the original
question) Is there a part 2 coming? Could you do me a favor and send these
directly to me?  I get the TML in digest format and I would have to cut
and paste the whole thing... 

Thanks muchly,
Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:58:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: MT Software request...

Greetings, All,

I am seeking MT specific software, particularly to assist in the 
creation of vehicles and starships.  If anyone has any information 
where I can access and/or download such software, I would greatly 
appreciate that knowledge.  Please feel free to contact me privately, 
so as to avoid wasting too much bandwidth on the list.  Thanks!

In Gratitude,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:03:19 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Advances)

Frank Pitt posted:
>
>>>computer chips that can
>>>link to a human brain,
>>
>>SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!  Whoa, Nelly!  I haven't heard of this!  Details!
I
>>want details....

AFAIK, progress was made on the development of the link between silicon and
human neurons. At the time of the story, which I'm kicking myself for not
keeping, the chip was able to recognize a signal from the neuron. It
couldn't
*do* anything with that signal nor could it differentiate aspects of the
signal.

It's got a long way to go before it's good for something. BTW, I'm finding
all these stories in the Tech sections of at the sites of ABC, MSNBC, and
CNN. Another good site is: http://www.cmpnet.com/

>Even better, there's a guy (who happens to be paralysed) whose using
_thought_
>to control a computer.
>He has electrodes taped to his head, and he can move a mouse pointer around
>the screen and select things with it.
>
>More precisely, he's consciously regulating the current flow in a small
part
>of his brain by "thinking" in a way that causes the electrode to activate
and
>more the pointer.
>
>Quite apart from it's implications for control circuitry, think what this
>means for "training" brain usage. It's an extension on the old bio-feedback
>techniques, but one that could allow people to practice "thinking" in a
>particular way.

Exactly! This one just blew me away! I knew the U.S. Air Force had
researched the use of brainwaves to control fighter aircraft some years
back (anybody remember Clint Eastwood in the movie "FireFox?)
but I thought it didn't pan out.

By the way, there's also been some progress in the development
of "memory plastic". Of course, I didn't keep the story.

I'll start keeping these stories and emailing them to those of you who want
the info.

Another development that has some incredible ramifications is the 
development of a "dry" polymer-based battery. It's a composite material can
be
made any size or shape; the larger the size, the larger its capacity.

Imagine a house with walls made of this stuff. I've seen another story in
which the material is under consideration as material for car bodies.

Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all these
advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even more so because
they're *real*!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:01:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: CT Task System for BITS products

I've noticed a number of BITS threads lately describing a different 
task system for CT, and I thought that I would point out that DGP 
released one prior to MT in their products, Grand Survey and Grand 
Census.  Basically the same as the MT Task System, it might be easier 
to use for future BITS products, as it is already in place.

Just a thought,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:28:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Helping to find alien civilizations...

Greetings, All,

I've found an interesting site that holds some promise.  If 
interested, you can help the SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial 
Intelligence) project analyze radiotelescope data for anomalous 
signals through a special program that runs like a screensaver when
you're not busy.  The link with the information is provided here:

http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

Just a thought for those of you who might be interested.

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:26:26 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: CT Task System

| From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>

| I've noticed a number of BITS threads lately describing a different
| task system for CT, and I thought that I would point out that DGP
| released one prior to MT in their products, Grand Survey and Grand
| Census.  Basically the same as the MT Task System, it might be easier
| to use for future BITS products, as it is already in place.


The UTP (Universal Task Profile) was published in the first issue of the
Travellers' Digest as a full article, near the back,  "Using Skills
Effectively".  A condensed version was republished in each issue following,
ending when it was incorporated into the MT rules (announced in Digest 9).
So, if you have a copy of any of the first eight Travellers' Digest, then
you have a copy of the "approved" CT task system.



  ==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
_______________________________
               www.downport.com
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:03:39 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

>> Why would a battleship captain stop and engage
>> a squadron of fighters, which can't hurt him
>> and may not even be able to catch up with him,
>> and ignore more high-value targets?
>
>The topic of fighter screens in Bruce's MCS
>(Military Combat System AKA Fudion Guard) was
>mentioned briefly in passing on the trav-tech
>mailing list this time last year (27th Feb - 4th
>March, roughly).  The conclusion was basicly
>that under the MCS system, using FFS2 rules to
>build the ships, it is possible to design a
>squadron of fighters that can severly damage or
>destroy light military ships (~1000 - 3000 tons)
>and inflict performance degrading damage on even
>quite large ships (~30,000 tons).

Fighters in Mayday and the T4 basic ship combat system are able to make
surface hits against large ships, but I felt this was implausible because
these systems destroy entire subsystems, regardless of weapon or target
size. A fighter with a 130 Mj laser does far more surface damage to a
battleship that the battleship does with its 750 Mj laser to the fighter.

Of course, the fighter has less armor and will probably get blown out like
a candle flame. However, a surface hit has the same probability of taking
out a 50 dton missile bay as a 2 dton laser lance, regardless of how
powerful the weapon is.

I use the Role-Playing Space Combat System, where you have to exceed the
target's armor rating to get even a surface hit. I felt this was more
realistic, and the sensor rules are better too.

Walter's suggestions that fighters are useful for pickets or sensor
platforms, and that ignoring them leaves support ships vulnerable are good,
but I didn't think any ship combat system went into this kind of detail. If
fighters are to play this kind of role there should be rules for it, and
not simply declare that battleships have to stop when engaged by an enemy
of any size or capability.

What I don't want to see is fighter squadrons and battleships having no
different strategic value.

I haven't used the "Military Combat System", does it deal with combat
between ships of different scales plausibly? If "Bruce" is Bruce Allen
Macintosh it sounds interesting. Is it available on the web?
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #266
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 267



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Hyperactive Metallic Bugs
WIRE Satellite Total Loss
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: GT: Solomani and Darrians
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
[alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #260
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
RE: PAK Protectors
re: Fighter Screens
Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:13:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

>A lot of things are 
>abstracted in High Guard (such as ECM/ECCM capabilites) - I'm looking
>for a way to abstract some fleet maneuvers beyond "line your ships up and 
>shoot at each other". Screening elements. Forcing the enemy into 
>premature deployment. Concentration of force, tactical initiative.
>You know, *stuff*. <g>

There's actually a whole thread going on in sf-consim (parallel thread
evolution at work) about deployment in (hex-based) sf games. A main 
subject is to try and find a good reason in any quasi-realistic game not
to just stack your whole fleet in a single hex. On the balance, we're 
failing to do that. (I suggest anyone interested in joining in *not* post
here on TML but join sf-consim, at onelist.com.) 

I'm considering adding to my MCS (high-guard-like, but with four range
bands) a "vanguard" in addition to the main body and the reserve.
The vanguard would be one range band closer to the enemy than the 
main fleet. Since light rapid-fire weapons can be painful even against armoured
ships at short ranges (scrubbing off surface fixtures) a fleet might 
deploy its own lightly-armoured fast ships into the vanguard to attack
the enemy vanguard before the whole fleets close to short ranges.

I was going to require the vanguard to spend more G's on maneuver than the
main fleet (which helps keep capital ships out of it, since they need 
some maneuver margin to aim their spinal mounts.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:17:48 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

>A good sized TL15 fighter laser system when used by a squadron 
>will (on an average roll) inflict a surface hit on a ship of up to 2 
>million tons. On smaller ships the squadron will inflict multiple 
>and/or heavy/critical surface hits. And providing they are sensible 
>enough to stay out of point blank range, the capital ship will 
>(barring gunnery skills of 6 or more) be quite literally unable to hit 
>them.

There is a "spread fire" rule that lets ships with big weapons batteries
reduce the damage in exchange for a bonus to-hit (firing multiple turrets
at different points instead of concentrated.) This gives capital ships some
chance of hitting tiny evasive fighters. I'm also tweaking the hit probabilities
a little. Still, the goal was that fighters that can stand off are hard to 
hit. If I do put in a "vanguard" rule that gives another reason to use it - 
screening/anti-fighter elements would be close enough to have some chance of
hitting the little vermin.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:12 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

>I haven't used the "Military Combat System", does it deal with combat
>between ships of different scales plausibly? If "Bruce" is Bruce Allen
>Macintosh it sounds interesting. Is it available on the web?

Extremely plausible (if I may say so.) Borrowing from Battle Rider, 
damage is resolved by subtracting the target size from the weapon damage
(and adding a d6), so a damage=7 fighter laser firing at a size=13
strike cruiser will be unable to have any effect, while the same laser
firing at a size=4 fighter will get lots of critical hits. 
Weapon damage values and target sizes etc. are all on a log scale (so the
math works better than Battle Rider.) As an added advantage this makes
dealing with fleets or squadrons pretty easy (a squadron of ten fighters
just adds 3 to the damage of its weapons no matter what those are, etc.) 
Penetration is tracked seperately from damage (so a battery of wimpy lasers
can do lots of damage to unarmoured targets but only surface hits on big
ships.)

It isn't on the web yet because it's a work in progress, but I'm willing to
email drafts to people who want one.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:54:33 -0400
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very much as a factor in
the games I have run.

The image which came to me today was a player group trying to operate in
freezing rain when they discover that their New-California built Desert Master
6000 ATV did NOT come with a standard viewport de-icing feature AND the viewport
is 3 meters above the ground AND the entire rest of the vehicle is covered with
2mm of ice, too.  This scenerio might be especially fun for those refs who live
in warmer climes, and who's players have never seen freezing rain.  "What is
this stuff?  Is it toxic?"

Has anyone out their used planetary weather on their players?  If so, how did it
come out.

Les, who had to chip a layer of ice of his own car to get to work this morning.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:34:02 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Hyperactive Metallic Bugs

Greetings:

The high speed bug you all are describing was in a James Blish book. The title
was a takeoff on Shakespeare, and was something like

"...And All the Stars a Stage"

If I remember, in the end you find out that they weren't from "our" Earth, and
the last few survivors land on Earth around the time of the birth of Christ?
It's been ***at least*** 20 years since I read it, but I remember the
departure due to the sun going nova, and the fruitless search with more and
more people getting lost as time went by...

Fred Kiesche
(Amateur Astronomer since 1965, Traveller since 1977, Father since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:01:54 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: WIRE Satellite Total Loss

It's official. The WIRE satellite has lost all its hydrogen
coolant for its telescope and is now forever useless.

Pity.

NASA is trying to stop the spin induced from the hydrogen
boiloff by using the satellite's magnetic attitude control
system.

ObTrav: A group of PCs are supporting a scientific mission
when the scientists onboard the ship report a coolant
leak in their solar/planetary/whatever probe in orbit.
This requires one (or more) PCs to perform a repairs EVA.

While on EVA,
1) a suit gets punctured from orbital junk/micrometeor.
2) a jet on the PC's EVA jetpack misfires then shuts
down, pushing the PC on a path out of orbit toward/away
from the planet/ship. A rescue is required

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:47:15 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:06:51 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
>
>You forgot to mention that a Protector is *fanatically* devoted to
>his/her bloodline. If they are wiped out, he/she may be able to
>transfer the protector instinct to his *race*. Childless protectors 
>(ie
>racially devoted) have been known to decide that a race restricted to
>its own planet but that has killed people who have landed there, is
>enough of a danger to the Protector's race to arrange for an asteroid
>impact the wipe out the planet-bound race.


Ahh, yes, I've not read those in quite a while.  Seems in one book a
human turned Protector found out about those Martians living under the
surface of Mars.  Free water is poisonous to them, so he arranged to have
a large cometary body whack the surface, poisoned the entire species.



>
>Paranoia is a normal state of being for a Protector. But a sort of
>modified paranoia. They assume that all creatures not of their
>bloodline/species are a danger to their bloodline/species until
>*proven* otherwise.
>
>I will mention *one* of the many changes that occur when a hominid
>makes the transition from breeder to Protector. A Pak breeder is 
>about
>as bright as a chimp. Maybe. A Pak protector is more intelligent than
>any normal human. 
>

Yeah, breeders, thats the term.  


>One description put it this way. For any given task, and set of 
>tools,
>there's an optimal answer. A Protector will see this answer as soon 
>as
>it considers the problem. 
>
>This means that for a protector, "free will" is a rather inapplicable
>concept. 
>


Absolutely.  The human turned Pak in another story moved to an outworld
colony, when he found out the original Pak were coming, and that they'd
consider these 'smart breeders' a threat, breeders that had failed to
breed true, so to speak, and took over the colony and started to create
more of our kind of Protectors, building starships and weapons, and went
out to meet the original Pak.  Lots of humans died when he took over the
colony, but there was no other way to deal with the threat.  No remorse,
from his point of view, it simply had to be done.




>In standard Traveller Universes, I'd expect that the Protectors would
>have learned that trying to wipe out star faring species was
>counter-productive. On the other hand, they'd have also taught the
>other star-faring species that messing with Pak is a *bad* idea. 
>
>Hmmm. In a Traveller universe that contains Pak & Protectors, that
>could be why Grandfather left. He found out about them and wasn't
>willing to see how they'd react to his messing with their relatives
>(humaniti).
>

====

Hmmm, I feel a new campaign coming on!!!

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:09:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
...
>As long as we're debating physics, _none_ of the existing Traveller rules
>really model the effects of strategic in-system maneuvering. All of them
>have fleets on essentially matched courses, slugging it out.  If you
>expand to a strategic level, battles become a series of passes at
>relatively high speeds, as squadrons maneuver to pass close to the enemy,
>then return for another pass (or keep going).

  _High Guard_ & _TCS_ ignore in-system maneuvering; TCS pretty much assumes
that it's not relevant as the Intruder always wants something in the inner
system (target, L-Hyd, engagement) - if they didn't they would have jumped to
deep space to conceal their movements.

  As the most important targets are not (for socio-political reasons?) subject
to annihilative bombardment a high speed pass (allowing for only a round or
two of combat (and deployment of _lots_ of BB's :> ) between fleets might not
be acceptable, but it's a very poor way to interdict enemy access to most
locations; loitering and keeping V low enough to offer protracted combat will
allow the choice of inflicting much greater damage.

>The exceptions will be battles for a 'stationary' location, like a planet
>or asteroid mine.

  This may very well be a good enough justification for the simplification to
be "correct" in 80%+ of the cases.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:17:32 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Solomani and Darrians

Michael McKeown wrote:

> Does anyone know if SJG plans a Solmani and Darrians book? It isn't
> listed on the SJ Web page "wish list"

Yes it is.  GT: Solomani Rim.  Or at least it was.  If it has been
removed, they closed a contract for someone to write it.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:18:18 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

>From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fighter Screens
...
>A good sized TL15 fighter laser system when used by a squadron 
>will (on an average roll) inflict a surface hit on a ship of up to 2 
>million tons. On smaller ships the squadron will inflict multiple 
>and/or heavy/critical surface hits. And providing they are sensible 
>enough to stay out of point blank range, the capital ship will 
>(barring gunnery skills of 6 or more) be quite literally unable to hit 
>them.

  There certainly should be a range where smaller units can use high DV to
avoid any reasonable response (except against Det-Lasers, by definition),
and given Trav weapon ranges (grav focussing?) they could be effective
themselves at that range. Close enough and a targets effective Agility is,
IIRC, halved under MCS?

  To be able to damage an armoured capital ship I assume that these fighters
are high-G units armed with maximum output laser "spinal mounts"? While I
don't have a problem with it, some people might also be surprised by their
being allowed to group batteries for enhanced effect.

>In my book, that makes fighters a useful asset in a military action.
>Of course, this only applies when using Bruce's MCS, and YMMV

  I've never denied that fighters have a role; it's just that at this time
I can only consider the somewhat mysterious manner in which they "pin" an
enemy to be more than faintly ridiculous.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:28:26 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:29:38 -0500
>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
>
>For the reality mavens out there, realize that I'm working on a game
>abstraction, not a precise simulation method.  A lot of things are 
>abstracted in High Guard (such as ECM/ECCM capabilites) - I'm looking

  Frankly, the HG approach to ECM/ECCM really bothers me - the "compare
relative computer levels and apply as a mod" bit; I much prefer the mod being
a firers advantage only - thus a model/8fib comp firing on a cutter with a
model/1 foes receive a +7 bonus, but the cutter would not receive a -7 hit
DM in return - what, it's a stealth proto-PacMan? How's that for heresy?

>for a way to abstract some fleet maneuvers beyond "line your ships up and 
>shoot at each other". Screening elements. Forcing the enemy into 
>premature deployment. Concentration of force, tactical initiative.
>You know, *stuff*. <g>

  There are probably a lot fo better ways to model that stuff than the
_Imperium_ system. It might be hard to do worse, IMHO.

>I think the biggest part to get right is how each side constructs their
>Commit Order - the order in which ships/squadrons are offered for 
>match-up. The effect I want is that the faster, larger, better led fleet
>will have more choices than the slower, smaller, poorly led fleet.
>Coming up with an elegant mechanic for it is another story entirely.

  Annoyingly, HG gives an advantageous inititative mod to the _larger_ fleet
(counting only ships of 100 Dt and up); _Imperium_ favours the _smaller_
fleet, although again (IIRC) ignoring fighters. OC, the _Imperium_ combat
system already massively rewards having more ships so it's quite probably
simply a game balance issue.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:05:36 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:12 -0800 bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan
Macintosh) writes:
>
>It isn't on the web yet because it's a work in progress, but I'm 
>willing to
>email drafts to people who want one.
>
>Bruce
=====

I'd like to see a copy of that please.

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:38:59 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: [alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day

Hi all, this is off topic, but my mom sent this to me.  Just about spewed
coke all over my keyboard.  Enjoy.

"VERY INTERESTING" SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!!!!

BEWARE!!

- ---- VIRUS ALERT ----- 

 If you receive an email entitled "Badtimes," delete it immediately. Do
not
open it. Apparently this one is pretty nasty.

 It will not only erase everything on your hard drive, but it will also
delete anything on disks within 20 feet of your computer.

 It demagnetizes the stripes on ALL of your credit cards.

 It reprograms your ATM access code, screws up the tracking on your VCR
and
uses subspace field harmonics to scratch any CD's you attempt to play.

 It will re-calibrate your refrigerator's coolness settings so all your
ice
cream melts and your milk curdles.

 It will program your phone AutoDial to call only your mother-in-law's
number.

 This virus will mix antifreeze into your fish tank.

 It will drink all your beer.

 It will leave dirty socks on the coffee table when you are expecting
company.

 Its radioactive emissions will cause your toe jam and bellybutton fuzz
(be
honest, you have some) to migrate behind your ears.

 It will replace your shampoo with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all
while dating your current boy/girlfriend behind your back and billing
their
hotel rendezvous to your Visa card.

 It will cause you to run with scissors and throw things in a way that is
only fun until someone loses an eye.

 It will give you Dutch Elm Disease and Tinea.

 It will rewrite your backup files, changing all your active verbs to
passive tense and incorporating undetectable misspellings which grossly
change the interpretations of key sentences.

 If the "Badtimes" message is opened in a Windows95 environment, it will
leave the toilet seat up and leave your hair dryer plugged in dangerously
close to a full bathtub.

 It will not only remove the forbidden tags from your mattresses and
pillows, but it will also refill your skim milk with whole milk.

 It will replace all your luncheon meat with Spam.
 
 It will molecularly rearrange your cologne or perfume, causing it to
smell
like dill pickles.

 It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It
is
also a rather interesting shade of mauve.

 These are just a few signs of infection.

 NOW THAT'S A VIRUS!!!!


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:07:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

>From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens
...
>I think my idea works if the rules allow some kind of difference between
>"suspected contact" and "fully realized firing solution". Remember,
>first spinal mount hit wins. Several possible contacts get passed up to
>CIC from sensor ops, which ones are real, and which ones have spinal
>mounts on them? Which ones can you safely ignore?

  Wouldn't this suggest a mechanism of effectively random match-ups
between pre-determined ship groupings? What would be the eventual
effects of capital ships being designed with integral float-plane, er,
I mean fighter, scouting squadrons (or sensor drones, for that matter).
Weapon ranges are obviously longer than any effective telescope can
recover useful EMS data; drives must be reactionless, too.

...
>The failure to break contact would (eventually) clue the BB commander
>in to what he was up against. The BB commander then starts treating
>the contacts as fighters - and dies as one of the suspected contacts turns
>into another capital ship with a spinal mount, just arrived into engagement
>range while the fighters were keeping the BB busy.

  How do you deliberately match up units per Imperium when you apparently
can't ID target class? How the heck can you have any hope of firing at a
unit if you can't guess it's tonnage to within 2-3 orders of magnitude?

...
>My idea makes the assumption that the standard HG2 hit and
>damage tables apply to ships that are defending themselves, and that
>some kind of bad things happen to ships that don't - thus forcing warships
>to engage, rather than ignore. Another sub combat inspired idea - if
>two subs are sneaking around each other, the one that goes to full power
>to get away or catch a different target is usually the one that dies.

  A ship that isn't evading is _very_ easy to hit - in fact, at shorter
ranges an Agility-0 target should take hits roughly equal to ROF; sadly
the rules don't quite reflect this (although arguably a HG2 fan can assume
that the loss of all power fuel isn't a mission kill to power plant energy
output termination, but a surrender or disengagement (!) due to the lack of
any ability to evade (and thus utterly helpless in mist battles).

  It is far from clear that a ship that isn't evading but whose armour is
proof against pin-pricks would take more damage from said pin-pricks (the
rules in question should allow surface hits - HG2 doesn't).

  Traveller space combat is sub combat? Cool - where are the sonar rules?

...
>Good question. I'm thinking something along the lines of expensive
>ships, meat grinders, and a reluctance to dump all your ships into a pot
>with all the enemy ships and gamble it all at one go.

  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:01:08 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #260

> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:06:53 -0500 (EST)
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> Subject: Re: GT : Solomani Free Trader from Alien Module 6
> 
> No, no, no.  This is won't do at all.  Where are its _legs_, man?
> 
> Gamera rules!
> 
> Kenji

Stay tuned. As soon as my Vehicles spreadsheet is up to it, I'll do the
above - with legs!
 
heh

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:04:44 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Frankly, the HG approach to ECM/ECCM really bothers me - the "compare
relative computer levels and apply as a mod" bit; I much prefer the mod being
a firers advantage only - thus a model/8fib comp firing on a cutter with a
model/1 foes receive a +7 bonus, but the cutter would not receive a -7 hit
DM in return - what, it's a stealth proto-PacMan? How's that for heresy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Simple - the ECM/ECCM arrays included in a model/8fib will play merry
hell with the sensor array included with a model/1. My model/1's fire control 
system will probably be showing me nothing but static. Or, if the enemy is
feeling playful, my FCS screen may start playing a game of PacMan. <g> 

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>You know, *stuff*. <g>

  There are probably a lot fo better ways to model that stuff than the
_Imperium_ system. It might be hard to do worse, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm using Imperium more as inspiration than as complete model. However,
you slam it, you do better. The abstraction level precludes maneuver
on a hex grid (as in Mayday or Brilliant Lances). There are more decisions 
to make in a fleet action than who fires at whom, that's what I'm trying
to get a feel for. Let's see your ideas.

Walt "More Than Faintly Ridiculous" Smith <weg>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:20:05 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: PAK Protectors

Don't forget that PAK are humans who have evolved into what they are!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:31:14 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Wouldn't this suggest a mechanism of effectively random match-ups
between pre-determined ship groupings? What would be the eventual
effects of capital ships being designed with integral float-plane, er,
I mean fighter, scouting squadrons (or sensor drones, for that matter).
Weapon ranges are obviously longer than any effective telescope can
recover useful EMS data; drives must be reactionless, too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, reactionless drives are part of original CT. Is effective long-range
EMS data real-time for passive sensors? Can a battleship scan 360
degrees of sky with a telescope array in twenty minutes (an HG turn)
and keep up with the data changes through that field of view?

Considering how many Canon capital ship designs include fighter
squadrons, I'd say they're intended to have some positive effect on fleet 
combat. The more useful fighters are, the more capital ships will have
"float planes".

As for this mechanism creating effectively random match-ups between
ship groupings, that was what I referred to in my mention of Commit
Order and how crucial it was. I don't have that mechanism worked out,
and I think it's the heart of this variant system. My idea is that more
maneuverable units can gain a contact advantage over less maneuverable
ones, and then guide their own units to the contacts - providing the
more maneuverable (or better organized/better led) fleet with more choices 
on what tactical contacts occur within the overall operational-level fleet 
contact.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  How do you deliberately match up units per Imperium when you apparently
can't ID target class? How the heck can you have any hope of firing at a
unit if you can't guess it's tonnage to within 2-3 orders of magnitude?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember, I'm not talking about an ID failure that lasts all day - just
a positive ID that takes twenty minutes. For a good chunk of that
twenty minutes, there may be no contact at all. 

Twenty minutes isn't a very long time at all when your battlefield is
measured in fractions of AU.

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
  Traveller space combat is sub combat? Cool - where are the sonar rules?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
It isn't Star Wars X-Wing dogfights. It isn't WW1-WW2 surface ships.
It isn't psionically teleporting Teleships from SPI's _Star Force_. It isn't wet
navy submarine ops, but there's a feel to sub combat that might be more
appropriate to Traveller space combat than the others. I can certainly
mine it for ideas. 

Steven again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Good question. I'm thinking something along the lines of expensive
>ships, meat grinders, and a reluctance to dump all your ships into a pot
>with all the enemy ships and gamble it all at one go.

  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trafalgar was wrong for the French. Find me something to trap a Traveller 
starfleet against so you can form up a line of battle and defeat it in detail.
(Wasn't Jutland an indecisive engagement in itself? I thought the German
fleet used their lack of a clear victory there as an excuse not to sortie
against the Royal Navy again, but losses on either side were equivalent.)

If I can see your fleet well enough (as the basic HG2 rules allow) to
know what you have, some simple number runs (TCS percentage
based combat) will give me an idea of what I'll have left after I stand
in line and trade shots with you. Note that the most efficient way of
dealing damage (loitering at low V and engaging en masse) is also
the most efficient way of taking damage. Since this isn't wet navy
surface combat, there may be other ways of doing this.

        Steven Hudson



Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:51:43 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss

I can see it now...   (Insert TNS banner here...)
>It's official. The WIRE satellite has lost all its hydrogen
>coolant for its telescope and is now forever useless.
>
>Pity.
>
>NASA is trying to stop the spin induced from the hydrogen
>boiloff by using the satellite's magnetic attitude control
>system.
>


ObTrav:   Honest, citizens, the satellite *is* dead.  What d'you mean you
think it's watching you?
Or, Return of the Ace Satellite Removal/Retreival Co.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:29:57 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

- ----------
> From: Les_Howie@keane.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
> Date: 10. maaliskuuta 1999 18:54
> 
> 
> 
> It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very much as a
factor in
> the games I have run.
>

I have, and many times. Although now that I think of it, most have been of
freezing temperatures and lots of snow. (That's what you get for living
near the polar circle. (In Finland that is.) I remember one tie when a
time/dimensiontravelling adventurer group using jury rigged GURPS tl8 space
shuttle made an emergency landing into Switzerland during the coldest part
of the winter. At first they got the ship buried under several meters of
snow in an avalanche. Because they were in the 1000's there was really no
technological way to get it out. After some snow-digging/diving in
spacesuits, they decided to timejump... Into the 1980's. After some time of
playing UFO, they had to hide their ship under ice in a deep lake by
melting the ice with their rockets. And while the main part of the group
were trying to get some rocket fuel (an adventure in itself...) the hole in
the ice re-froze. With no other way of getting on the surface than by
walking on the bottom in spacesuits and laser-cutting the ice, the part of
the crew left to guard the ship was stuck. 

And because of the effectivity of snow in blocking IR, there have been more
than one time when high-tech guerillas have used snow and snowing as a
cover for their operations, and for hiding from pursuers.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #267
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 268



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Re: PAK Protectors
Re: Downport Site Idea
Muon-Catalysed Fusion (The Return of Fusion Plus?)
An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials
Re: New Spaceport Completed
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re:OT Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: June bugs
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss
Re: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Other Tech Advances
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
re: MT Software request...
re: CT Task System for BITS products
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:18:20 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

Hi,

what I have done is a variant MT Space Combat is to give the small units the own 
Target Size DM as a to hit bonus on their tasks, while using direct fire weapons. 
Missiles get no such bonus.

From this it is extrem simple to HIT a large craft with a small craft and extremly 
more difficult vice versa. This means although that they can shoot from longer 
ranges.

If you put fighters 10displ with a single Size DM of 3 into a fighter sqdr of 
example 30 fighters the dm is reduced to 2 but the fighters can now put their 
weapons together to push the ucp of the weapons up.

My players have fought some battles and it really looked like starwars small 
fighters running around the big ships ones.

Further I have changed the combat steps:

COMBAT PHASES
Detection Scan Phase
Movement Phase
The unit with the lowest of (Computer + Thrust + Crew + Size) begins.
Ramming must be declared during the end of a units movement.
Fire Control Scan Phase
Fire Phase
Declare Defensive Batterys
Fire all offensive weapons in range from the highest UCP to the lowest. Use Range 
zero against ramming crafts.
Collision with declared and unavoided rammings.
Damage Phase
Apply all Damages
Launch/Docking Phase
Damage Control Phase
Repair Tasks. Possible up to Major Damages.

I am applaying the DSR and a lot of other changes too. Example no hardpoints. 
Tractors and Repulsors are the same unit. If the Ship is big enough and has enough 
energy, you can put into a 200 displ. ball with a fusion-50 ton bay and 100 
missile launchers. Computers get really small at tl11 fighter has the same 
computer as a battleship, but the crew has a lower quality. The Crew Quility is 
added to every OFF DM and DEF DM. Agility is canceled too, because i can't explain 
it to me how it works. Insted I'm using Accelerations.

Example:

to hit task with direct fire:

Difficult, OFF=Computer, Crew, Acceleration, SizeDM, to Hit DM, DEF=Computer, 
Crew, Acceleration, SizeDM, Range

to pen

Difficult, OFF=Computer, Crew, to pen DM, DEF=Computer, Crew

Last is the using of the excellant alternate MT damage tables from Jospeh R. 
Dietrich.

cu

Jens
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:55:46 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: PAK Protectors

No no, Humans are Pak breeders who've evolved into what we are.......

JimC

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:20:05 -0600 "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
writes:
>Don't forget that PAK are humans who have evolved into what they are!
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:49:17 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Downport Site Idea

From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>

|One possible option for Downport.com that may prove interesting to those of
|us with websites that we DO NOT want to move would be the ability to host a
|simple HTML Frameset at DOWNPORT... We could point the contents to our
|current sites... and maintain the sites at their CURRENT location.

Workable idea.  I can see how this might be popular, if we do it right.



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
__________hosted_by____________
               www.downport.com
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:13:41 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Muon-Catalysed Fusion (The Return of Fusion Plus?)

**WARNING : The note below contains a high level of gearheadedness!**


Fusion reactions can (theoretically) be initiated at low temperatures
(less than 5000K) through muon catalysis.

Introduction of negatively charged muons, which are 207 times as massive
as electrons, into a low temperature, relatively dense (on the order of
0.014g/cc, 0.2 X LH2) mixture of deuterium and tritium, leads to the
formation of muonic atoms.

DT-mu intermediates form rapidly and fusion ensues.

Muons have a lifetime of 2.2 X 10^(-6) seconds under normal conditions,
decaying into electrons and muon and electron neutrinos.
The number of fusions catalysable per muon is in the order of 120-150.

This all sounds very good, but a muon source must be available.

The obvious source for muons is the annihilation of protons with
antiprotons :-

p + anti-p -> 2 neutral pions, 1.5 positive pions and 1.5 negative pions

The neutral pions decay into gamma rays within 8 X 10^(-15) seconds.
However, the charged pions decay into muons and neutrinos within 2.6 X
10^(-8) seconds :-

pion(+) -> muon(+) + muon neutrino
pion(-) -> muon(-) + muon antineutrino

The overall energy gain is about 12% (annihilation as input energy vs.
fusions generated).

Ob Trav : So a handwave exists for The Abomination Known As Fusion Plus.
Heavy water is 'doped' with tritium and simultaneously heated by
antiproton annihilation, with some muon catalysed fusion on the side....

This enables antimatter to 'sneak' into the game on a limited basis at
average Imperial Tech Levels ; one of Cleon's many 'dirty little
secrets'???

Reference
Kammash T. Principles of Fusion Energy Utilisation in Space Propulsion.
Chapter 1 of 'Fusion Energy In Space Propulsion' : Progress in
Astronautics and Aeronautics 1995, pub. AIAA Inc. p.33-37

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:13:59 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials

>From 'New Scientist', 27/2/99 :-
'Protons and neutrons can form tiny "molecules" within an atom, say
physicists in Europe... Martin Freer of the University of Birmingham and
his colleagues studied the decay patterns of a heavy isotope of
beryllium... The team's findings suggest that protons form molecule-like
structures by sharing neutrons, just as atomic nuclei link up by sharing
electrons.'

(Physical Review Letters, 82:1383)

Beyond coherent electron materials :- increases in structural strength
through nucleonic interchange could be very large.

Anyone for nucleon stabilised materials (to expand the materials lists
beyond TL 16)? Damper tech (=strong and weak force manipulation) is
around from TL 12, but controlling it at an atomic level isn't possible
until nanotechnology is well-established.

Hmm... back to the books to tease out a few plausible properties for
these substances...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:18:47 +0100
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>>computer chips that can
>>link to a human brain,
>SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!  Whoa, Nelly!  I haven't heard of this!  Details!
I
>want details....

Well, not many details, but I saw a documentary on one of the first humans
they experimented on. He was/is a total paraplegic, basically couldn't move
a thing. So, they connected a computer to some suitable part of his brain
(don't remember if surgery was involved or if it was just electrodes), and
he learned to control a cursor moving over a computer screen so that he
could 'write' by pausing at a letter displayed on the screen. Basically, he
did this by 'thinking' at it (biofeedback), it took a bit of training, but
he did it. (He had a *completely* neutral face (obviously, not many facial
muscles worked), but they focused the camera on his face when he 'wrote' his
name for the first time. I can't describe his smile (it barely existed) but
it was *very* obvious he was one happy camper. Suddenly he could
*communicate*. The doctor wasn't all that unhappy either. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:18:46 +0100
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: the nastiest monster
> Hmmm. In a Traveller universe that contains Pak & Protectors, that
> could be why Grandfather left. He found out about them and wasn't
> willing to see how they'd react to his messing with their relatives
> (humaniti).

Hmm. So he killed off his children out of fear their antics would draw Pak
interest. Dang. I like this idea.

How 'bout the other races? (That is, how to bring them in without messing
too much with traveller.)

The Puppeteers are easy, they're fleeing the galaxy (using Mover Of Worlds)
because they *know* what the Empress Wave is. They just have some things
that must be taken care of to make sure the Pak do what they're supposed to
do while the Puppeteers are moving slowly towards the next galaxy.

The Outsiders, well, they just haven't contacted anyone that hasn't kept
quiet about it. Or maybe they just haven't visited any Imperial worlds? Yet.

The Kzin. Either (boring) just let the Aslan *be* the Kzin, or have a fleet
of Kzin come barrelling into the Solomani. (Think First War-era Kzin.)

The Trinocs. Could fit in in any reasonably unexplored part of space.

The Slavers. All dead. Except for the one found in a stasis box that is
currently being explored at Imperial Research Station Theta...

The Bandersnatchi. Just have someone realize these big critters exist on
several planets.

The Pak. Live on a currently unexplored world somewhere inside Imperial
space. Either nobody knows this, or the system is *very* Red-zoned. (The
last Imperial Fleet that was sent there kind of, um, disappeared...) One of
their slowboats are about to land on an Imperial planet in a rather short
time, with a good supply of Tree-Of-Life... (They do not yet have Jump as
they were a bit *too* thorough in destroying the Fleet.))

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:28:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials

Robert O'Connor writes:
> >From 'New Scientist', 27/2/99 :-
> 'Protons and neutrons can form tiny "molecules" within an atom, say
> physicists in Europe... Martin Freer of the University of Birmingham and
> his colleagues studied the decay patterns of a heavy isotope of
> beryllium... The team's findings suggest that protons form molecule-like
> structures by sharing neutrons, just as atomic nuclei link up by sharing
> electrons.'

Um...as described, this more suggests that nuclei are held _together_ by such
bonds than that bonds between separate atoms work in this way.  As such, it has
no macroscopic relevance.
> 
> Anyone for nucleon stabilised materials (to expand the materials lists
> beyond TL 16)? Damper tech (=strong and weak force manipulation) is
> around from TL 12, but controlling it at an atomic level isn't possible
> until nanotechnology is well-established.

Shrug.  Sufficient manipulation might allow creation of artificial neutronium,
with a density of at least 10^14 (hint: assume a neutronium hull has zero
volume).  That isn't nanotech per se.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:32:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> It isn't on the web yet because it's a work in progress, but I'm willing to
> email drafts to people who want one.

I'd be interested in taking a look.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:48:35 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Les Howie writes:
"It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very 
much as a factor in the games I have run... Has anyone out 
their used planetary weather on their players?  If so, how 
did it come out."

	I found that weather was a glaring omition in planetary
	statistics, so I made my own table. Even when it doesn't
	really affect play, it adds some flavour to different 
	worlds. Of course, when the party is travelling on a near-
	desert world with mean daytime temperature (at the equator)
	of 50 degrees C (122 degrees F), I found that my players
	were at least as concerned with finding water as they were 
	with avoiding patrols of bad guys.

	"Let's stop early and set up the atmospheric condenser."

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:50:08 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re:OT Nasty Ref tricks (was Re: Nastiest Monster)

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> 
> How did the cook end up in robes and a mask?
> 
Actually, whhile the PC groups was attempting to knock down the locked
door, the assisn slugged her, then switched clothes. "he" then threw a
shaw over his head. As the door crashed in he pushed the semi-concious
woman toward it. One of the fighters was fist in the room, saw the black
robed figure coming at him and procedted to hack and slash. The others
followed, completely ignoreing the cowering "cook" in a corner near the
door!

Another nasty, of our own making came while exploring a cavern under a
monestary. We located a fountain, in the center was a large jade
elephant. We spent turns and turns trying to figure out how to 1) break
the elephant statue free, the 2) carry it away (as I said, it was
large... and heavy). We stood in the water filled fountain for quite a
long time pondering, then heard a noise behind us. We turned to find a
large, fire breathing reptile. Can you say toast? Afterward we
complained to the ref that it wasn't fair to place a treasure we
couldn't recover, then hit us with the grandfather of DnD Monsters. He
calmly told us that the statue wasn't the treasure! The water was, it
conferred increased strenth and damage resistance (enough to kill the
draon if used wisely). The problen was that the site of the massive jade
statue brought out so much greed thatn NONE of us even thought to check
anything else in the lair. After a such a long time he felt he just had
to let the dragon return!


- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:51:05 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

In a message dated 3/10/99 4:26:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Hey, how many of *you* are aware that our presence in Lebanon (when the
 Marine Barracks got blown up) was the *second* time we'd been doing
 "peacekeeping" in Lebanon IN THIS HALF OF THE CENTURY!
 
 Or that we fought with Korea late in the 1800s (it may have even been
 the early 1900s, I don't have my references handy)
  >>

Knew the first one (Eisenhower sent the Marines...), but didn't know the
second one..

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:18:05 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: June bugs

In a message dated 3/10/99 4:16:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Well, "The Ransom of Red Chief" is always a wonderful model. For those
 not familiar with it, some would-be gangsters kidnap a kid from a
 moderately well off family, figuring to hold him for ransom.
 
 Alas, the kid is a sort of cross between Calvin (of Calvin & Hobbes)
 and Dennis the Menace. The response from the parents is pretty much
 "*You*'ve got him, *you* keep him!" In the end, the bad guys wind up
 paying the parents to take the kid back!
  >>

Ah-Hah; now I know where Hollywierd got their "Home Alone" ideas from. Glad to
see that they're not being original (for a change...), but (my G-d!) somebody
is actually READING CLASSICS! ( though knowing the punks writing scripts these
days; they're either using Cliff's Notes or asking their parents for a
synopsis...:-)

Seth

Ob Trav: Is the Imperial entertainment "culture-industry" as annoying, yet
fascinating as Hollyweird?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:38:33 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/10/99 4:26:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
> 
> << Hey, how many of *you* are aware that our presence in Lebanon (when the
>  Marine Barracks got blown up) was the *second* time we'd been doing
>  "peacekeeping" in Lebanon IN THIS HALF OF THE CENTURY!
> 
>  Or that we fought with Korea late in the 1800s (it may have even been
>  the early 1900s, I don't have my references handy)
>   >>
> 
> Knew the first one (Eisenhower sent the Marines...)

In 1958.

> , but didn't know the second one..
> 
In reference to the fighting in Korea in the late 1800s, Robert Heinlein
makes a passing mention in _Expanded Universe_ as follows:

<<begin quote>>

My training in history was so spotty that it was not until I went to the
Naval Academy and saw captured battle flags that I learned that we
fought Korea some _eighty years_ [emphasis original] earlier than the
mess we are still trying to clean up.

<<end quote>>

Eighty from 1950 leaves circa 1870.


ObTrav:  Given the appalling lack of historical knowledge (not to
mention the decline in knowledge of other academic subjects) prevalent
among American students, what would be the average Edu stat for an
American public high school graduate?  Would an Edu stat of 5 be too
high, or too low?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:51:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss

In a message dated 3/10/99 10:04:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< t's official. The WIRE satellite has lost all its hydrogen
 coolant for its telescope and is now forever useless.
 
 Pity.
  >>

is the orbit low enough for a shuttle fix it mission?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:25:10 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)

At 01:37 am 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>This new place is www.downport.com , a domain (name) and server (at
a large
>hosting company) dedicated to Traveller.  The project belongs to all
players
>/ fans who want to enjoy and/or contribute to it.  If you have
developed
>some good web content for the game and are tired of having it lost
at the
>end of a forty character URL in a corner of the Internet, check out
>Downport.com as a possible new host for it.

	You guys support MicroSloth's FrontPage98?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:15:50 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

At 12:54 PM 10/03/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Has anyone out their used planetary weather on their players?  If so, how
did it
>come out.
>
>Les, who had to chip a layer of ice of his own car to get to work this morning.
>

        I have run "weather themes" as part of the game...  Very much the
Trek/ Star Wars vien of "Forest World", "Ice Planet", "Dust Ball", etc.  The
justifications I use is that the primary facilites of a colony will be in
the most habitable area of the planet...  so, for the "Ice World" I ran, the
facility was on the equator with a "summer" day-time high of  +5c/ 42F....
        The players *hated* that scenario...  They were part of a Ranger
unit;  they got rotated from star system to star system every 18 months.  So
they get posted to this petroleum-rich ice cube on the back side of hell....
The biggest worry they had when out on a sector patrol was thier PLSS units
kicking out on them, or getting thier thermal suits torn in a scrap...  they
actually lost a team-mate to hypothermia when the whole team was KO'd by an
explosion...  her suit got torn and she froze to death before they regained
conciousness.
        Another time was when they got posted to a desert world;  the "artic
circle" regions were fairly lush, like the area around the Nile River in
Eygpt.  The rest of it was sand and uranium-laden rock....  They got thier
"Glide Box" shot down by smugglers and wound up having to tough it out in a
brutal desert environment for three days while rescuers tried to reach them.
No one died, but one character was critically wounded from dehydration.

        I tend to treat things like "ice storms" or the like as part of the
encounter tables for a particular terrain type...  Just the same as
interesting natural geographic features or flora/fauna....

        By and large, I don't resort to encounter tables much....  So, if
weather figures into a game, it is because it is part of the "script" for
the adventure.

        Nice to see you back on the list, Les....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:02:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Other Tech Advances

>Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all these
>advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even more so because
>they're *real*!
>
This is one complaint I have about Traveller.  So much of its very far in
the future technology lacks imagination.  Carl Sagan once said something to
the effect of, "If an alien race capable of interstellar travel were to live
amongst humankind for so much time, their technology would appear to us to
be magic."

Remember that movie in the 80's where the kids make a spherical force-field
spaceship?  I thought that was "visionary" and probably possible one day, if
we don't kill ourselves off, first.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:04:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> > 
[snip]
> > , but didn't know the second one..
> > 
> In reference to the fighting in Korea in the late 1800s, Robert Heinlein
> makes a passing mention in _Expanded Universe_ as follows:
> 
> <<begin quote>>
> 
> My training in history was so spotty that it was not until I went to the
> Naval Academy and saw captured battle flags that I learned that we
> fought Korea some _eighty years_ [emphasis original] earlier than the
> mess we are still trying to clean up.
> 
> <<end quote>>
> 
> Eighty from 1950 leaves circa 1870.

I'm not terribly familiar with Korean history, but I can't think of an
armed intervention -- let alone "invasion" -- of Korea by the USA during
this period.  

Technically, anyway, it would have been impossible.  There was no
sovereign Korea -- it was a vassal of the Qing dynasty in China back then.
;)  Hence the significance of the Sino-Japanese war for the peninsula...

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:10:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: MT Software request...

"Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:

>I am seeking MT specific software, particularly to assist in the
>creation of vehicles and starships.  If anyone has any information
>where I can access and/or download such software, I would greatly
>appreciate that knowledge.

Which platform?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:13:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: CT Task System for BITS products

 "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:

>I've noticed a number of BITS threads lately describing a different
>task system for CT, and I thought that I would point out that DGP
>released one prior to MT in their products, Grand Survey and Grand
>Census.  Basically the same as the MT Task System, it might be easier
>to use for future BITS products, as it is already in place.
>
>Just a thought,

Jason,

We're aware of the system but we can't use certain types of DGP material
for legal reasons.

It would make life simpler though...

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:21:30 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

At 05:48 PM 10/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>	I found that weather was a glaring omition in planetary
>	statistics, so I made my own table. Even when it doesn't
>	really affect play, it adds some flavour to different 
>	worlds. Of course, when the party is travelling on a near-
>	desert world with mean daytime temperature (at the equator)
>	of 50 degrees C (122 degrees F), I found that my players
>	were at least as concerned with finding water as they were 
>	with avoiding patrols of bad guys.
>
>	"Let's stop early and set up the atmospheric condenser."
>
>Ian
>

        Could you post your table?  I for one would be interested in seeing
it.  Thanks!
       
        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #268
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 11 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 269



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: Other Tech Advances
Re: Other Tech Advances
General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #266
Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Canonicity
Re: Canonicity
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Passports and Paperwork
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
chip to human
Re: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Advances)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:38:33 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

In a message dated 3/10/99 8:08:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:

<< 
 I'm not terribly familiar with Korean history, but I can't think of an
 armed intervention -- let alone "invasion" -- of Korea by the USA during
 this period.  
  >>

	Perhaps the US made some incursion into Korea during the Boxer rebellion
(about 1900), there were American troops (although Europeans where ther in
larger numbers) elsewhere in China in support of the effort to rescue the
foreign embassies in China.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:12:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Other Tech Advances

>>Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all these
>>advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even more so because
>>they're *real*!
>>
>This is one complaint I have about Traveller.  So much of its very far in
>the future technology lacks imagination.  Carl Sagan once said something to
>the effect of, "If an alien race capable of interstellar travel were to
live
>amongst humankind for so much time, their technology would appear to us to
>be magic."
>
And how about Wonder Woman's crystal or invisible jet and Scotty's
transparent aluminum?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:13:33 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Other Tech Advances

>
> And how about Wonder Woman's crystal or invisible jet and Scotty's
> transparent aluminum?

Well, there's transparent and there's invisible.  Then you've got the question
of invisible to what?  The visual spectrum is miniscule compared to the
detectable spectrum.  They're working on the more important "radar invisibility"
already.  Then there's the "warp light around" attempt at invisibility, which
works fine in a directional invisibility.  But if you look at the "cloaked"
object from the side, it will stick out like a sore thumb.  I think the only
"true invisiblity" would be converting the refractive properties of the object
to match that of the local medium.  That's probably tinkering with atomic
properties and would have some weird effects on perception.  Note that even a
slight difference in refraction is very noticeable, like a layer of fresh water
under a layer of salt water producing a reflective surface.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:35:59 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components

General Products Retail Catalog
issue 1107-200
Starport Modular Components

Component                          Price (MCr)
Module B: Beacons
B-0 telemeter                       1
B-1 standalone transponder          5
B-2 radio transceiver               0.05
B-3 laser transceiver               0.5
B-4 maser transceiver               5

Module T: Control Towers
T-6 capacity 1t/wk avg              1
T-7 capacity 10t/wk avg             10
T-8 capacity 100t/wk avg            100
T-9 capacity 1000t/wk avg           1000
T-10 capacity 10kt/wk avg           10,000
T-11 capacity 100kt/wk avg          100,000

Module L: Landing Facilities
L-0 1km radius landing pad          0.01
L-1 2km radius landing pad          0.02
L-2 4km radius landing pad          0.04
L-3 3km x 500m landing strip        0.03
L-4 4km x 500m landing strip        0.04
L-5 5km x 500m landing strip        0.05
L-6 6km x 500m landing strip        0.06
L-7 7km x 500m landing strip        0.07
L-8 8km x 500m landing strip        0.08

Module P: Parkbays
P-0 custom parkbay                  -
P-1 single 11-ship parkbay          100
P-2 double 11-ship parkbay          200
P-3 triple 11-ship parkbay          300
P-4 quad 11-ship parkbay            400
P-6 6x11 parkbay                    600
P-8 8x11 parkbay                    800

Module H: Hangars
H-0 custom hangar                   -
H-7 10t small vehicle hangar        0.01
H-8 100t boat hangar                0.1
H-9 1000t hangar                    1
H-10 10,000t hangar                 10
H-11 100,000t hangar                100

Module O: Parking Orbit Transponders
O-0 custom orbit transponder        -
O-1 standard telemeter transponder  5
O-2 programmable transponder        10

Module F: Fuel Depots
F-0 custom tank                     -
F-7 10t fuel tank                   0.0001
F-8 100t fuel tank                  0.001
F-9 1000t fuel tank                 0.01
F-10 10,000t fuel tank              0.1
F-11 100,000t fuel tank             1
F-12 1mt fuel tank                  10
F-13 10mt fuel tank                 100
F-14 100mt fuel tank                1000

* Fuel shuttles: see our boat listings
* Refineries: see our starship listings

Module M: Installation Maintenence Centers
M-0 custom maintenance center       -
M-1 storage shed                    0.01
M-2 portable outbuilding            0.1
M-3 permanent outbuilding           1
M-4 maintenance complex             10

Module S: Shipyards
S-0 custom shipyard                 -
S-1 machine shop                    1
S-2 minor repair center, 100t dock  10
S-3 repair center, 100t dock        30
S-4 repair center, 1000t dock       100
S-5 overhaul center, 1000t dock     300
S-6 major repair center, 1kt dock   1000
S-7 major repair center, 10kt dock  3000
S-8 100 build tons/year             10,000
S-9 1000 build tons/yr              30,000
S-10 10k build tons/yr              100,000
S-11 100k build tons/yr             300,000
S-12 1m build tons/yr               1m

Module W: Warehouses
W-0 custom warehouse                -
W-1 100t storage                    0.1
W-2 1000t storage                   1
W-3 1000t storage, 100t special     2
W-4 1000t storage, 1000t special    10
W-5 10kt storage, 1000t special     15
W-6 10kt storage, 10kt special      30
W-7 100kt storage, 10kt special     45
W-8 100kt storage, 100kt special    90
W-9 1mt storage, 100kt special      120
W-10 1mt storage, 1mt special       240

Module C: Concourses
C-0 custom concourse                -
C-1 portable outbuilding            0.1
C-2 permanent outbuilding           1
C-3 outbuilding complex             10
C-4 large starport complex          100
C-5 industrial starport complex     300
C-6 commercial starport complex     1000

Module X: Maglev Rail Networks
X-0 custom network                  -
X-1 starport module connection      2
X-2 external module connection      5


Normally, a starport has:

1. a landing area/volume
2. a parking bay/orbit
3. a beacon
4. a tower
5. warehouses
6. a plant maintenance center
7. a concourse
8. a fuel depot, with fuel shuttles or a refinery (or both)
9. a ship maintenance/construction yard

The public or external transportation system is usually
connected to the concourse and the warehouses, while
the starport transportation system is usually connected
to all areas except perhaps the concourse.

The concourse contains all retail stores, agencies,
non-starport-related offices, and services.

Warehouses may be just bare spaces, or may have
specialized environmental controls.


- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:26:18 -0000
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #266

>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:06:51 PST

>Subject: Re: the nastiest monster
While we're on this subject I might as well mention the Morthans from David Gerrold's 'Star Wolf' series. The Assasins are some of the nastiest pieces of genetically engineered death I've read about in a long time.
Or you could introduce Moties...
ALO


- -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/  Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:28:43 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss

Sethkimmel@aol.com posted:
> 
> In a message dated 3/10/99 10:04:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> dasmart@lucent.com writes:
> 
> << t's official. The WIRE satellite has lost all its hydrogen
>  coolant for its telescope and is now forever useless.
> 
>  Pity.
>   >>
> 
> is the orbit low enough for a shuttle fix it mission?

The article didn't say but I believe it's not getting to
the satellite that's the problem. It's replenishing by
hand, while in vacuum and a micro-gravity environment,
the frozen hydrogen supply on a satellite never built
to allow such a procedure. Then there's repairing the
telescope itself of any damage cause by exposure to
unshielded solar energy in space (the hydrogen was
supposed to keep the 'scope cool). Again, the telescope
wasn't designed to be repaired and no pre-built tools
exist.

The Hubble was specifically designed for access in
an orbital environment and had special tools made for
such endeavors. Even then, the repairs/upgrades of
the Hubble are very delicate and dangerous procedures
just because of the environment. Touching one of the
Hubble's shiny metal external panels could have burned
through one of astronaut's EVA suits.

Nope, the $71 million+ satellite is unrecoverable,
barring a miracle. Some of its science goals will be
picked up by future probes, though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:01:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens
...
>Well, reactionless drives are part of original CT. Is effective long-range
>EMS data real-time for passive sensors? Can a battleship scan 360
>degrees of sky with a telescope array in twenty minutes (an HG turn)
>and keep up with the data changes through that field of view?

  It's far from clear that B:2 or HG2 drives are reactionless; HG1, Mayday,
and TNE of course are quite explicit in their use of reaction drives. So is
Triplanetary, FWIW :)  I'm afraid that I'm not qualified to answer the sensor
question in RL, but in Traveller the answer is assumed to be yes at Stellar TLs.

  Of course, if the drives in a particular Traveller campaign aren't
reactionless then they're signature is truly, um, astronomical? This 
makes ID'ing enemy units much simpler in the run up to an engagement.

>Considering how many Canon capital ship designs include fighter
>squadrons, I'd say they're intended to have some positive effect on fleet 
>combat. The more useful fighters are, the more capital ships will have
>"float planes".

  Although most (AFAIK) such ships _don't_ have fighters, I would suggest that
most major ships should have fighters aboard simply for the added flexibility
in many missions. They can be faster than the main ship, they can go to many
different locations, they can be customized by varying models loaded, and
they are low maintenance attrition units. The absence of such is not, IMHO,
genuinely explicable; perhaps they wanted to avoid all major Trav ships
resembling something from bad SF TV?

...
>maneuverable units can gain a contact advantage over less maneuverable
>ones, and then guide their own units to the contacts - providing the
>more maneuverable (or better organized/better led) fleet with more choices 
>on what tactical contacts occur within the overall operational-level fleet 
>contact.

  It sounds interesting, but it's not what Imperium uses (which is good, IMO,
as Imperium is too simple), however, it also presupposes various things about
ranges that I've already expressed concerns about.

... 
>Twenty minutes isn't a very long time at all when your battlefield is
>measured in fractions of AU.

  And twenty minutes at 5G's is almost nothing compared to Traveller combat
ranges. Given that ship movements (unless extreme DV's have been accumulated)
will be very small compared to "normal" ranges the initiative system will have
to conceal all those aspects to make sense, won't it? If the ID issue is a
really important one, then all ships would have sensor drones a la 2300 AD to
deploy; the fact that they don't is either a simplification, an error, or a
statement that CT sensors don't require them (TNE uses drones sometimes?).

...
>Trafalgar was wrong for the French. Find me something to trap a Traveller 
>starfleet against so you can form up a line of battle and defeat it in detail.

  An engagement can be forced in Traveller by the not-too-simple expedients of
finding an enemy that needs to refuel, or a site that the enemy will choose to
defend. The simplest method is to jump in yourself; an opponent who believes
that you can'r jump out will be encouraged to attack.

  Trafalgar was wrong for the French & Spanish because they lost; if they'd
been unwilling to fight they could have stayed in port for another year. As
for Jutland, the point is that a battle was fought; the strategic issues that
arguably prevented either side from making it decisive are not very relevant.
And the Brits got spanked badly on tonnage sunk*.  (* statistics, lies, etc.)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:05:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> Gary....less coffee PLEASE.  I meant "canonicity" to be just as you
> said...carved in stone and enforced.  In RPG, it would be too stiffling.

I don't drink coffee. :-)   That would be a strawman because obviously there
is no such thing that is carved in stone and enforced, nor does anyone want
that (i hope!).   Even the most diehard proponets of canon think it's
obviously only applicable to the official universe, and even then most likely
only to historical events and not extrapolations on chargen, ship design,
combat rules etc etc.

> Obviously if I were writing something for publication I would stick as close
> as I could to the "official rules."  But, if I wanted to write an adventure
> for just my own little group and wanted to make Norris Duke of Grabbooty, a
> cross dressing vargr (a personal fantasy of Jesse's I think!) then I could,
> and no canon rules can stop me.  Course I'd have some trouble getting it
> published.

Noone, least of all I, would have any desire to "stop you."  My point was that
the value of 'canon' is for a single official universe that many branch off've
and nothing to do with anyones own universe (who have their own "canon:"  that
which is dictated/ written/ thought up by the Ref).  There can be a million
Fred, Eneri, or Norris out there, but if one just says "Norris", everyone will
probably think about Norris Aella Aledon (First Regent, Archduke of the Domain
of Deneb, Duke of Regina, Marquis Aledon, Baron Yori, etc etc), in the
official universe.  What happens in anyone's own universe is their own
beezwax, but should probably be prefaced w/ IMTU to avoid confusion, at least.

> In the case of a RPG such as Traveller, canonicity is moot (not the senate).
> There have been so many versions and stages of it that one has the choice of
> picking a version and sticking with those rules only, or actually trying to
> grab what they concider the best from the various versions to make their own
> "house rules."  Jesse hates when I do that but he's a smeg head anyway.
;-P

Whenever I refer to canon, it's only in reference to the "historical" events
of the official timeline/universe and possibly alternates such as G:T's M:1120
and nothing at all to do in relation to various game rules.  It's been one
evolving setting until (and possibly) T4.  Try telling your ref that there is
no 'canonicity' and <insert name> is not the bigwig in charge of the area or
that the big warship off the starboard bow cannot hurt your ship cause you
have an "anti-canon thingamajig."  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:05:47 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

In synch with serious and silly replies/

> >T-plates are provided in FF&S, amongst others.  Fusion guns are there, they
> >just aren't space weapons (isn't it the same in T4?).  Virus flawed?  LOL
In
> >what way?  ;-)
> 
> A serious reply: Even if you kept the old style designs a lot of starports
> and other maps had been drawn on the basis of a Millennium Falcon Style
> Drive, not a Plasma Torch. This is a problem if you use old material.

I see absolutely nothing that says the 'plasma torch' has to be a gigantic
plume, in an atmosphere.  I'm not a vehement anti T-plate person, though I do
prefer HEPLaR, if just for aesthetics (it is NOT a big deal to keep track of
G-turns) and personal suspension of disbelief.   Again, T-plates (amongst
other manuever drives) were provided for those who had an attachment for the
old style designs and starports, etc.  Nothing stopping anyone from fudging
the equations or introducing grav focusing for high energy weapons, as
provided.  TNE wasn't about one universe, but the possibilities of many,
though there was no support given, though 2300AD would've probably been first
out the gate, had GDW not bitten the big one.  FF&S, as another pointed out,
is practically a universe design kit.

> A Silly Reply: Fusion Guns are Space Weapons (3 systems to 2 vote)... cf
> High Guard.  - " There is no game but Traveller and High Guard is its

LOL.  hmm...  CT, MT.  But my GT lacks all mention of them (Yes, i've actually
cracked the cover on it.  Arent' they in Star Mercs?  What was the handwave
used?  And what ranges etc).  FF&S 1 and 2 don't have them as such.  I'd call
that a tie until I here just how Star Mercs treats them.  And i'll take BR
over HG any day of the week.  ;-)

> product"- Virus is flawed because it broke the Imperium badly.

Only a flaw if you don't want the Imperium broke. If you don't like the
Imperium, on the other hand (or rather, don't like it intact, but think it can
be an inspirational vision of past grandeur (and folly) ala Rome in medieval
Europe)... ;-)

> Anyway, I'm not looking to start a flamefest on this (we've done it
> before). Lets play our own versions and enjoy ourselves; like it or not CT,
> MT, T4 and GT bear more resemblance to each other than TNE. Is this a bad

Debatable.  Some of GT (especially if you're going to use G:V and/or the many
personal combat options) and T4 (FFS2) are alot more reminiscent of TNE than
the older ones.  Only CT and GT lack a true task system.  MT is just
recompiled CT w/ DGPs task system.  T4 is a hybrid, if anything.  Aside from
an irrational dislike of any dice unique to role playing, there's only the
stat/skill balance that draws credible criticism.  Most of the personal combat
is highly modular and ignorable (recoil, knockdown, hit location, etc).
Lethality is easily modified (double damage for short range, T2k Quick Kill,
etc). Things can be organized and interpreted many ways, no?  lol.  

Not looking to start a flamefest, either, nor do I think we're headed for one.
And of course no minds are going to be changed and we'll keep playing enjoying
the versions we like, despite all the posturing.  :-)  

> thing? Depends on your point of view. TNE at its best was thought
> provoking, and combined feelings of pathos and hope. At its worst it was
> clunky and revisionist. I'm sad the storyline ended but aren't really

LOL.  That is funny.  That's exactly what I said of MT & T4 when i held an MT
boxed set, TNE Deluxe (mk 1 mod 1), and T4 and compared them, when deciding
which one I'd get.  Didn't see nor acquire any CT until after then (and I
still have as much T4 as I do CT), though i went back and got the MT box
(didn't have an Imperial Encyclopedia seperately).

My POV much prefers Path of Tears to Solomani Rim, Regency Sourcebook to the
Spinward Marches, BL/BR to Book2/HG, etc etc on the rules side.  On the
setting side, everything is possible in the RC.  Exploration/scout stuff.
Corp missions/intrigue.  Political stuff/faction fighting.  Merchants,
Belting, Merc stuff.  Military campaigning.  Even the Regency never actually
got me running more than a few odd adventures there, though I've done numerous
attempts at an actual campaign.  In fact, I've been developign a near future,
3D alternate universe campaign, though that'll probably replace the Regency on
teh sidelines, as I still find I have alot of stuff that can be done in the
RC.  1203 is going to be very fun IMTU.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:05:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

> >Why would a battleship captain stop and engage a squadron of fighters,
> >which can't hurt him and may not even be able to catch up with him, and
> >ignore more high-value targets?
> 
> The fighters can strip off the surface fixtures like turrets and sensors,
> and damage the engines/T-Plates. The bits you can't really armour. No 
> Traveller rules system does this that well.

None?  Brilliant Lances and the mapless version in the main TNE book do...

Also in large numbers (task forces or "squadrons") they can put an impressive
number of missiles out, which can make even a capital ship notice.  If I used
T-plates, I could make some darned effective fighters.  As is, with HEPlaR
drives, my Ithklur and Imperial fighter designs
(http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/ffs.htm) have made a significant difference
in the BL/BR scenarios they've taken part in.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 23:34:21 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

On 03/10/99 at 05:38 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>Eighty from 1950 leaves circa 1870.

I've seen this several times, now, so I'll tell you what I know
about it.

In 1871, a small US Expedition was despatched to Korea to
"investigate" the disappearance (or death) of various US citizens
(sailors) over the last few years.  The US forces captured a couple
of coastal forts and negotiations ensued.  Nothing was resolved and
the Americans withdrew.  Simple "Gunboat Diplomacy", that didn't
really work, and dwarfed by the escapades of the British and French
throughout the same period.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:55:07 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

Kenji Schwarz said:

>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Black ICE wrote:
>
>> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>I'm not terribly familiar with Korean history, but I can't think of an
>armed intervention -- let alone "invasion" -- of Korea by the USA during
>this period.
>
>Technically, anyway, it would have been impossible.  There was no
>sovereign Korea -- it was a vassal of the Qing dynasty in China back then.
>;)  Hence the significance of the Sino-Japanese war for the peninsula...


[Off Topic, but enough people seem to be interested]

Here's the blow by blow of what happened:

It all started in the mid-to late 1860s. Korea was amazingly insular during
this period. European merchants were knocking down the door to trade with
Korea. In an attempt to drive off Western influence, the Koreans had
massacred over 8,000 Catholic converts and missionaries. In response, the
French invaded and were repulsed.

An American vessel, the "General Sherman" attempted to open up trade with
Korea in 1866. It's unclear precisely what happened. Some claim that the
crew decided it was high time to raid tombs. Others claim they tried to
strongarm a trade agreement. On the other hand, it's also entirely possible
given Korea's mindset at the time that they were just outright hostile
toward the American vessel from the get go. At any rate, the crew was
murdered and the ship was burned.

In 1871 an American naval vessel with a contingent of marines showed up.
They asked the Koreans what had happened to the "General Sherman." Whatever
answer the Koreans gave wasn't terribly unpleasant, so the U.S. forces asked
for permission to send a small boat to chart the Salee river. The Koreans
agreed. The boat went about its work and was fired upon by a garrison in a
Korean fort. The boat managed to make it back.

The American forces were baffled. They had asked permission and were fired
upon. He wanted to know why. The Koreans were silent. He delivered an
ultimatum: explain why the boat had been attacked or suffer the
consequences. The Koreans didn't respond so the Americans landed marines.
They attacked and took a number of forts. In the course of the action, the
Americans had taken some Korean prisoners. They attempted to use these
prisoners to negotiate with the Koreans and figure out why a boat charting
the river was attacked. The Koreans responded that any prisoners that were
sent back to them would be killed.

The American forces were utterly confused and frightened when faced with
such an alien mindset. They packed up, got in their ship and went back home.

That's pretty much the core of it. What precisely happened is a matter of
conjecture. The official histories of both countries have wildly different
accounts of exactly what happened.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:16:52 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Passports and Paperwork

The crew of a Pakistani freighter spent 12 months in exile aboard their own
vessel.  Upon arriving in Mexico, the crew was informed that the company
owning the ship had gone bankrupt.  In the ensuing financial squabble, the
Mexican government seized the vessel's documents and the crew's passports.
The ship languished in port for six months, with the crew trapped aboard,
before making a daring night escape to the the United States.  Without
passports, the crew was not allowed to come ashore.  The crew lived in
squalid conditions. They had no air conditioning, relied on charity and
caught fish to eat, and had almost no contact with friends or family.
Finally, the ship was sold for scrap and the crew has been given 30 days to
make travel arrangements to get home.


ObTrav:  It seems like an easy way to throw a wrench in the works of a party
in the midst of making their fortune plying the trade lanes...

For those of us starting our own TU:  What types of documentation are
Traders required to carry _within_ the Imperium?  When crossing the borders
of the Imperium?  How much influence does the world government have?  When
would the Imperium sieze a vessel, and why?

Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:19:06 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
...
>I'm using Imperium more as inspiration than as complete model. However,
>you slam it, you do better. The abstraction level precludes maneuver
>on a hex grid (as in Mayday or Brilliant Lances). There are more decisions 
>to make in a fleet action than who fires at whom, that's what I'm trying
>to get a feel for. Let's see your ideas.

  Right off, I favour something at HG/MCS level for most ship combats; I'm
coming to the conclusion that an engine like 5FW works best for campaigns
with lots of heavy iron (and that assumes that the 5FW OB's are scaled way
down, as any TCS player will admit).

  That then begs the question of whether to play individual battles on hexes
or not. If they're really big then I suggest that the answer is no unless you
are really well-equipped comp-assist-wise. But something up to 10-20 maneuver
elements (ship, or squadron of fighters) per player could be played out on a
hex map, as BL/BR amply indicates.

  Given Trav tech it becomes apparent that a non-hex display mechanism will
still require (or at least very much profit from) a range band system a la
High Guard,
MCS, or even Book 1. This is not an argument that only a one-dimensional system
is sufficient; in fact, a system where limited mil-intel is a greater issue
would
make flanking maneuvers at range more of a threat to the reserve (or potentially
battleline units).

  The importance of layered PD against massive deployment of Det-Lasers simply
begs for resolution on a hex map, if the number of elements involved is low
enough for it to be practical. Matters are somewhat simplified by the fact that
you can rig things fairly easily such that many ships (esp. gunline units of
identical function and/or performance) can simply pack into the same hex -
even Nu-Det-Lasers can't throw that many beams...

  Vector-based movement also effects munitions deployment; if two battlelines
are slugging it out at long range (not rapidly converging) then slow (small,
cheapish) munitions can be deployed at higher efficiency by faster warships
operating independent of the BB's by running up to speed and lobbing the rounds
into the enemy fleets future position (and thus relying on the cheap bus to
merely correct for any target maneuver and to supply fine target selection).

  If you're not going to use hexes (and when that many ships are involved I
likely wouldn't use detailed resolution for the battle anyway) then the
abstract system in HG is a chunk of the way there; if I were intent on trying
to reinvent the wheel I would end up with something like MCS with its 4-5
range bands, 2-3 position groupings, and BR hex equivalencies. With the latter
it becomes simple to calculate just how awkward (and time and/or fuel-consuming)
maneuvering past an enemy unit will be using standard Traveller maneuver drives.

  In any case there's been a lively debate on SF-CONSIM-L as to whether hexes
are needed for space combat systems, whether Newtonian physics are too dull or
the alternatives too intellectually barren, and whether an abstract system
would need more than one position option, etc. Join the Dark Side...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:16:51 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: chip to human

I remember the article clif was talking about where the paralized
individual had a chip implanted into his brain... Also some years ago
(1985) it was announced that a break through in connecting the humans brain
emmissions (alpha waves?) to a computer, the test subject would concentrate
on the image icon, the computer would interperate and activate a command,
problem was the computer had to calibrated for each different subject and
the original test subject had to recalibrate 12 months later because each
persons alpha (?) waves were different for each icon, and the original test
subjects alpha waves seemed to change with experince.

also back in the late 80's a Doctor was arrested for illegal testing on his
wife, apparently he discovered a way to control his wifes epeliptic (sp)
seizures with implanted chips. She unfortunalty was killed in a car crash
and during the autopsy (sp) it was discovered that she had electronics in
her brain.

true or not these are interesting stories.
 Whats worse then a kraken?


A pregnant Kraken!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:50:09 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Advances)

>Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all these
>advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even more so because
>they're *real*!

Another is that French car that runs on compressed air which is being produced
for the Mexican Taxi industry and anyone else who will buy it ( I think it was
posted on here, perhaps by you ? )


Frankie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #269
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 11 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 270



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Re: Broken WIREs
Re: [alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day
Re: Starport Modular Components
Re: PAK Protectors
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
Re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
New Jersey Travellers
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: MT Software Request
Re: [alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Deep Space 1 (Was: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Adva nces))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:12:41 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Les Howie wrote:

> It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very much as
> a factor in the games I have run.

> Has anyone out their used planetary weather on their players?
> If so, how did it come out.

	I have ran several outdoor adventures, and uses weather as
	major factor in most of then. All my players have military
	training and they know how dangerous exposure can be in
	real life. Because of this, they usually try to equip thier
	characters with suitable weather gear.

	When I ran the Marooned/Marooned Alone -adventure, I tweaked
	the setteing for colder and more hostile climate. I used CORPS
	game system so that I could easily include the effects of cold,
	exhaustion, hunger and injured limbs.

	The result was dark and desparate adventure, in which the
	suirvival pack found in ship's boat proved to be quite
	inadequate.


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:36:01 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

Bruce wrote...

<<SNIP>>
>Penetration is tracked seperately from damage (so a battery of wimpy lasers
>can do lots of damage to unarmoured targets but only surface hits on big
>ships.)
<<UNSNIP>>


Don't forget though that, once you've sandpapered all that armor away,
there's an awfully large amount of interior that is open to vacuum - which
also makes for ideal target practice.
Alternatively, replace all those 'dirty' nukes with gelled acid warheads and
eat away the armor, then use your "wimpy lasers".

ObTrav: "Um, Captain?  You know that, uh, 'nuke' that passed through our
damper and you said wouldn't hurt us?  Well, there's a funny fizzing coming
from your cabin..."

Don't have nightmares...
Jeff R.
"They build 'em.  We break 'em."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:07:07 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Broken WIREs

David wrote...

<<SNIP>>
> Then there's repairing the
>telescope itself of any damage cause by exposure to
>unshielded solar energy in space (the hydrogen was
>supposed to keep the 'scope cool). Again, the telescope
>wasn't designed to be repaired and no pre-built tools
>exist.
<<UNSNIP>>

Firstly, the hydrogen was not there to protect the systems as such but to
cool the infrared seeker head to prevent the satellite's own heat radiation
blinding it (sort of like trying to look at the stars at night whilst
standing under a street light).
Secondly, whilst NASA probably will not do very much for a while, there is
nothing that says someone could not transport the sat to Freedom/ISS at a
later date.
Thirdly, the only thing that can really stop a shuttle mission fixing WIRE
is if NASA decide *not to* - where there's a will, there's a way.  One of
the (often forgotten) Shuttle mission specs from way back when was that it
should be able to retreive satellites for fixing - and not just those
designed to be easily maintained in open space.

BTW, fixing the leak and refilling the tank would be difficult *at this
moment in time*.  Barring a miracle?  Remember, 19th Cetury scientists said
man would suffocate if he travelled above 25mph, and (very early) 20th
Century scientists said man would never fly.  Leonardo da Vinci proposed
that man would be able to send pictures around the globe but the scientists
of the time said "no way, semaphore would take too long"...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
*your* philosophies."

I'm sorry if this sounds a little like a rant (it does when I reread it to
myself out loud), but I get *a little angry* when people say that 'we'
should stop spending money on space progams and spend it elsewhere - like
finding better ways to kill each other.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth."
The rest of us will get the stars!

Jeff R.
ps wasn't it clever of Willy Wagglestick to include so many popular sayings
in his books?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:14:06 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day

At 13:38 10/03/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all, this is off topic, but my mom sent this to me.  Just about spewed
>coke all over my keyboard.  Enjoy.
>
>"VERY INTERESTING" SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!!!!
>
>BEWARE!!
>
>---- VIRUS ALERT ----- 
>
<snip impressive virus effects>

</serious>

Hardly off topic, this sort of virus has been part of Traveller since TNE.

<serious>

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:38:34 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Modular Components

>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:35:59 -0600
>From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
>Subject: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
>
>General Products Retail Catalog
>issue 1107-200
>Starport Modular Components
>
>Component                          Price (MCr)
>Module O: Parking Orbit Transponders
>O-0 custom orbit transponder        -
>O-1 standard telemeter transponder  5
>O-2 programmable transponder        10
>

These still don't make any sense from a celestial mechanics point of view.
To be of any use, you'd have to measure and calculate its orbit somehow --
you can't just fly to it, like a ground-based navaid. Assuming that its
orbital elements are given as part of its transponder code, you'd still
have to measure your own orbit in 3D by the same system -- with only two
data points, the satellite and the planet. Unless you physically dock with
the thing, you're not in the same orbit and you will spend a fair amount of
time and effort keeping station with it. Docking with a transponder
satellite will disturb its orbit, which pretty much defeats the purpose as
well.

Better to invest in a constellation of GPS satellites in LPO that allow you
to precisely measure and adjust your own orbit. For this, you'd probably
need at least 6, and 36 would be better. They could each consist simply of
a standard transponder and power supply -- say, Cr20,000-30,000 apiece, not
including on-orbit launch costs -- but you'd have to replace them every two
years or so as their orbits decay. This could then also form part of your
approach and landing system, and incidently provide a valuable service
on-planet. More expensive versions could provide additional services:
communications relay, packet switching networks, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:03:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: PAK Protectors

In mail you write:

> Don't forget that PAK are humans who have evolved into what they are!

No, humans are descended from Pak breeders who lost their Protectors. 
But that was quite a while ago. Say 5 million years or so.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:06:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

In mail you write:

> While we're on this subject I might as well mention the Morthans from David 
> Gerrold's 'Star Wolf' series. The Assasins are some of the nastiest pieces 
> of genetically engineered death I've read about in a long time.

What was fun was finding out partway thru the book that the "Morthans"
were *human*. "Morthan" being what "More than" had become thru common
usage. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:37:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Black ICE wrote:
>
>> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>> > 
> [snip]
>> > , but didn't know the second one..
>> > 
>> In reference to the fighting in Korea in the late 1800s, Robert Heinlein
>> makes a passing mention in _Expanded Universe_ as follows:
>> 
>> <<begin quote>>
>> 
>> My training in history was so spotty that it was not until I went to the
>> Naval Academy and saw captured battle flags that I learned that we
>> fought Korea some _eighty years_ [emphasis original] earlier than the
>> mess we are still trying to clean up.
>> 
>> <<end quote>>
>> 
>> Eighty from 1950 leaves circa 1870.
>
> I'm not terribly familiar with Korean history, but I can't think of an
> armed intervention -- let alone "invasion" -- of Korea by the USA during
> this period.  

As I understand it, after Perry "opened Japan", they tried to open
trade relations with Korea. The US fleet involved anchored near some
Korean fortress that covered the river mouth. 

The Koreans foolishly tried to pull a sneak attack on the fleet while
negotiations were going on. The Marines stormed the fortress and took
it and several others. When the Koreans *still* showed no signs of
being willing to negotiate in good faith, it was decided to leave. I
don't recall if they left the fortifications intact or not. Knowing the
Marines, unless they had *specific* orders to the contrary, they at
least would have burned them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:38:11 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components

At 21:35 10/03/1999 -0600, Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com> wrote:
>General Products Retail Catalog
>issue 1107-200
>Starport Modular Components
>
>Component                          Price (MCr)
<snip>

>Module T: Control Towers
>T-6 capacity 1t/wk avg              1
>T-7 capacity 10t/wk avg             10
>T-8 capacity 100t/wk avg            100
>T-9 capacity 1000t/wk avg           1000
>T-10 capacity 10kt/wk avg           10,000
>T-11 capacity 100kt/wk avg          100,000

A T-6 can cope with 1 air/raft per month?
100MCr to cope with two free traders per month?
Maximum capacity 5 mega freighters per year?

Unless I am missing something, you need to multiply the
tonnage capacity by 1,000 or more.

At the very least, the repayments on the control tower
should be less than those on the merchants.

<snip>

>Module P: Parkbays
>P-1 single 11-ship parkbay          100

how big a ship?

<snip>

Interesting none the less.

Phil Kitching


- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:12:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

>I used CORPS
> game system so that I could easily include the effects of cold,
> exhaustion, hunger and injured limbs.


Anyway these can be brought over into Traveller in some sort of a system?

I understand the recent Computer RPG "Baldur's Gate" enforces the rule of
exhaustion and hunger (and maybe weather).  It's funny to read some of the
screen captions when this happens.  It looks like the characters become
downright unmanageable when they get tired enough.

NPC Artificial Intelligence seems to be pretty realistic (if not that, then
humorous).  An evil mage NPC grabs the good druid chick's rear end.
Eventually she gets pissed off, they exchange magical blows, and she kills
him.

That's one expensive jolly.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:37:32 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
"Could you post your table?  I for one would be interested 
in seeing it.  Thanks!"

	I'd be happy to, but don't be disapointed. I'm an old
	CT player and I tend to follow the KISS principal, in
	keeping with the spirit of those rules. Now, if I can 
	just remember to bring it in tomorrow...

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:51:40 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian Ferguson wrote:

> Michel Vaillancourt writes:
> "Could you post your table?  I for one would be interested 
> in seeing it.  Thanks!"
> 
> 	I'd be happy to, but don't be disapointed. I'm an old
> 	CT player and I tend to follow the KISS principal, in
> 	keeping with the spirit of those rules. Now, if I can 
> 	just remember to bring it in tomorrow...
> 
> Ian

	I fully approve of both CT and the KISS principle...  Just ask my
players..  I look forward to seeing your post tomorrow...

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:43:18 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: New Jersey Travellers

Greetings All:

Any central NJ Traveller fans out there? While I'm not running a campaign
(yet), I'd like to get together on occasion, shoot the breeze, complain about
rules, bitch and moan about players who exhibit free will and decision making
processes, etc.

Give me a shout!

Fred Kiesche
(Amateur Astronomer since 1965, Traveller since 1977, Father since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:58:18 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

>I understand the recent Computer RPG "Baldur's Gate" enforces the rule of
>exhaustion and hunger (and maybe weather).  It's funny to read some of the
>screen captions when this happens.  It looks like the characters become
>downright unmanageable when they get tired enough.


Not quite. Exhaustion yes, but hunger no. Weather doesn't have much of an
effect beyond looking impressive and adding atmosphere, which it does
nicely.

>NPC Artificial Intelligence seems to be pretty realistic (if not that, then
>humorous).  An evil mage NPC grabs the good druid chick's rear end.
>Eventually she gets pissed off, they exchange magical blows, and she kills
>him.


That's not quite what happens. ;^)

They get into an argument over one of his nasty comments. The evil wizard
and the neutral cleric each have a companion that they bring with them (the
druid has a husband while the mage has a twisted little bodyguard). They all
start bickering and then it comes down to blows.

There is no fixed winner though. Each side has the potential to win.

However, this is far off topic in a Traveller List, so just send responses
here: semo@pil.net


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:05:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: MT Software Request

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:
> 
> >I am seeking MT specific software, particularly to assist in the
> >creation of vehicles and starships.  If anyone has any information
> >where I can access and/or download such software, I would greatly
> >appreciate that knowledge.
> 
> Which platform?
> 
> Dom

Sorry, my bad.  IBM PC, low end Pentium, under Win95.  I have the 
MSOffice97 suite, so Excel spreadsheets will work, but I'd prefer an 
actual stand-alone, if available.

Thanks,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:34:30 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [alienfuzion]  Just something funny to make your day

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:14:06 +0000 Phil Kitching
<postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>>---- VIRUS ALERT ----- 
>>
><snip impressive virus effects>
>
></serious>
>
>Hardly off topic, this sort of virus has been part of Traveller since 
>TNE.
>
><serious>
>
>Phil Kitching
================

OH NO!!!!!  No sir, I really didn't mean to start a war, no sir, really
sir, it was an innocent mistake, really, no, uh, huh?  Uh, whats that
sir?  Its a <FNORD>!!  OH PLEASSSSE SIRRR, NOTTT THATTT,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, SOMEONE GET ME MY ASBESTOS UNDERWEAR,
HURRY!!!!!!!!!!!

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:14:02 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:18:46 +0100 "Jonas Karlsson"
<Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se> writes:
>The Pak. Live on a currently unexplored world somewhere inside 
>Imperial



=======

How bout this.  IIRC, Niven put the Pak homeworld somewhere towards the
core.  Heres whats happened.  The Zhodani core expeditions ran into the
Pak world.  The Protectors decided they didnt like the Zho nobles for
some reason.  Perhaps they saw them as breeders who failed to breed true
(ie. mutations, not something the Pak would like)  Realizing where they
came from, the Pak start out this way, in (relativistic) slow boats.  The
empress wave is really a psionic wavefront intended to scramble psions,
and is maintained by a set of special slowboats carrying psionic jammers,
while the Pak troop ships come along behind.  Brings to mind a new
campaign

Traveller:  The Pak Wars

Never mind the rebellion, Virus, etc.  the Imperium best get ready.  The
Pak will see these smart breeders as mutations, not of the true blood
line, and will most certainly try to exterminate them.  You want to see
the 3I fall?  Now heres a good way to do it.  The other races?  Hmmm, not
sure on that one.

JimC
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:27:30 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: An Idea For Ultra-Tech Materials

Robert O'Connor
>
>>From 'New Scientist', 27/2/99 :-
>'Protons and neutrons can form tiny "molecules" within an atom, say
>physicists in Europe... Martin Freer of the University of Birmingham and
>his colleagues studied the decay patterns of a heavy isotope of
>beryllium... The team's findings suggest that protons form molecule-like
>structures by sharing neutrons, just as atomic nuclei link up by sharing
>electrons.'
>
>(Physical Review Letters, 82:1383)
>
>Beyond coherent electron materials :- increases in structural strength
>through nucleonic interchange could be very large.
>
>Anyone for nucleon stabilised materials (to expand the materials lists
>beyond TL 16)? Damper tech (=strong and weak force manipulation) is
>around from TL 12, but controlling it at an atomic level isn't possible
>until nanotechnology is well-established.
>
>Hmm... back to the books to tease out a few plausible properties for
>these substances...

Cool! Please post, if you find anything.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:30:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

At 09:13 AM 3/10/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>A lot of things are 
>>abstracted in High Guard (such as ECM/ECCM capabilites) - I'm looking
>>for a way to abstract some fleet maneuvers beyond "line your ships up and 
>>shoot at each other". Screening elements. Forcing the enemy into 
>>premature deployment. Concentration of force, tactical initiative.
>>You know, *stuff*. <g>
>
>There's actually a whole thread going on in sf-consim (parallel thread
>evolution at work) about deployment in (hex-based) sf games. A main 
>subject is to try and find a good reason in any quasi-realistic game not
>to just stack your whole fleet in a single hex. On the balance, we're 
>failing to do that.

Lot's of good reasons depending on your starting assumtions.  The enemy can
spread out and bypass you.  Area effect weapons can hit all of your ships.
Like a honking big Antimatter bomb. (T-bomb in SFB.)   LOS blocking.  One
moon blocks all the fire from all ships.  Colateral damage from our own
ships exploding.  Interferience with each others sensors.  Not being able to
tell what seeking weapon is seeking who.  Difficulty covering week spots in
each others defenses.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:55:50 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

Charles Prevatte wrote (re why not mass all your ships in one hex):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Lot's of good reasons depending on your starting assumtions.  The enemy can
spread out and bypass you.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Most of the "keep together" ideas seem to assume some defined points
in a star system that ships will automatically act to attack or defend -
refuelling points, mainworlds, etc. Thus you can mass where the enemy
must come, and he must mass to fight you there. The assumptions
involved with this are the most critical to creating a game universe where
ships have a reason to spread out.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Area effect weapons can hit all of your ships.
Like a honking big Antimatter bomb. (T-bomb in SFB.)   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That would be one ungodly size area of effect weapon. "One hex" is much 
bigger than most planets (for the weapon and movement scales we're talking
about here).

If the game universe includes such weapons, you'll also need a reason
they're not used by the losing side against the biggest solo enemy ship
they get a shot at. Better to get something for your limited-use, frightfully
expensive doomsday weapon than to die with it unfired.

Unless the *threat* of such weapons, though they are actually very rare,
is sufficient to cause fleet dispersal as SOP.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
LOS blocking.  One
moon blocks all the fire from all ships.  Colateral damage from our own
ships exploding.  Interferience with each others sensors.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, big hexes. Though the idea of sensor interference may be worth
exploring. Current ideas on sensors seem to say a bunch of ships close
together can help each other, make their sensors work better instead
of worse. If sensors have a different effect on each other then we need to
explain why, and our game tech will be somewhat different than the
directions FF&S and BL/BR have taken.

Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not being able to
tell what seeking weapon is seeking who.  Difficulty covering week spots in
each others defenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If the ships are covering each other, then being closer together should
be better. As for seeking weapons, if you are being shot at by so many
of them that you have to prioritize PD fire against ones coming at you,
then your situation could only get worse by being far away from other
friendly PD assets.

Most interesting game mechanic I've ever seen for limiting the number
of ships in a hex was from Metagaming's _Godsfire_. The FTL drives
used in that wargame's universe caused a temporary weakening of
the dimensional fabric. Too many drives at once in too small an area,
and you ripped a hole in the universe. The last time it happened, the
"Godsfire" disaster pretty much caused a short civilization collapse
(much like the Darrian Maghiz) in the game area.

Nice thing was, the game designers included rules for setting off
another Godsfire during the game. Every time you massed a fleet
above a certain level, or attacked an enemy fleet such that your
fleet + his fleet were above a certain level, you risked losing both fleets
and wrecking the economy of all the systems around where you were
fighting. I've yet to play the game, but the idea seems to have 
interesting possibile effects on a game universe.

Walt Smith 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:35:04 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space 1 (Was: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Adva nces))

Frank Pitt wrote:
>
>>Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all these
>>advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even more so because
>>they're *real*!
>
>Another is that French car that runs on compressed air which is being
produced
>for the Mexican Taxi industry and anyone else who will buy it ( I think it
was
>posted on here, perhaps by you ? )
>
>
>Frankie

'Fraid I don't remember. 

The compressed air vehicle and and the fact that Microsoft now has a deal
with
China for some cheap Internet boxes makes me wonder why such technology
isn't being offered in the U.S. Makes me go "Hmmm". Just a thought for you
conspiracy-theory fans. Regardless, they're an excellent way for other
countries
to leapfrog the U.S. because of the potential economic efficiencies.

BTW, the ion drive onboard the Deep Space One probe is going to be
fired up again on March 15th.

The latest news with the probe is the success of the onboard "AutoNav"
software which allows the probe to figure out its location in the universe
by looking at benchmark stars and asteroids. The big deal about this
(and it's BIG) is the fact that the software did it *without* any processing
help from Earth-based engineers..and did it twice. First time in the 
history of the human species, folks, and the sucker figured out its
position on its own within 1000 miles (2000 km) while over 180 million
kilometers or 110 million miles from the Sun and almost 46 million km or
about 28.5 million miles from Earth.

If anyone wants to see the mission statuses on the
15th, go to:    http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #270
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 11 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 271



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Solomani and Darrians
Pak Protectors
Marooned Alone (was Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?)
Metator
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=
Re: Broken WIREs
Re: Canonicity
pakage expresss
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Canonicity (Books of Marc)
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Canonicity
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...
re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
Group One adventures
Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss
Re:  Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Broken WIREs
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:22:17 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT Solomani and Darrians

I agree. I think SJG did a good job with GT Alien Races 1, other than 
the obvious errors. They included a lot of new material. I think they 
could do the same with S+D if they had a quality writer...

Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:25:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Pak Protectors

	This is interesting.  I happen to be re-reading 'Protector' at the
moment.  If the protectors bumped into the 3I, I think there would be
wonderful potential for mayhem.  First of all, they would exterminate all
non-human races as a matter of course, Phssthpok says as much near the
beginning of the book.  Protectors eliminate other sophonts "just to be
sure".  As for the humans of the 3I and the Zhos, I'm not sure.  They
would "smell funny" to the Pak, so would probably not qualify for
protection.  By default they would qualify for extermination. 

	Now the interesting debate starts:  Who would win?  The 3I and the
Zhos start off with a huge advantage in numbers, industrial capacity, and
technology, but the Pak are ultimately resourceful.  As someone else said,
they could make a fusion plant out of a vaccuum cleaner and a pile of
dirty socks.  They would rapidly co-opt technology and expand their
numbers with cloning and the like.  They wouldn't hesitate to use
bio-warfare (they use it on each other, after all) or planetary
sterilization by nuke.  It would basically be a matter of the 3I scoring a
quick and decisive victory or the Pak destroying everything at an
inexorable and rapidly accelerating pace. 

	I have a feeling the Solomani might come out ahead in all this. 
After all, in some sense they _are_ the Pak and the extermination of all
other sophonts would leave the way clear for them to "fulfill their
galactic destiny" and all that rot. But wait, you say!  Wouldn't they get
exterminated too?  Maybe not.  The Solomani would have some time to get
ready, and are masters of genetic engineering.  What I would do if I were
them is I would make sure I "smelled right".  I would therefore qualify
for protection as a breeder and then things get funky... (excuse the
pun :-). 


Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:37:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marooned Alone (was Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?)

<Antti>
        When I ran the Marooned/Marooned Alone -adventure, I tweaked
        the setteing for colder and more hostile climate. I used CORPS
        game system so that I could easily include the effects of cold,
        exhaustion, hunger and injured limbs.

        The result was dark and desparate adventure, in which the
        suirvival pack found in ship's boat proved to be quite
        inadequate.
</Antti>

Heh heh, I had a very different experience with that adventure.  I really
flustered my GM, I think.  I didn't like the idea of walking across the
surface of a whole continent on my own, so when the guys who were hunting
me in an air-raft showed up, I flagged them down and surrendered instead
of hiding. They took me captive but I managed to escape thanks to a couple
of random encounters: An air-raft breakdown forced us to camp and then a
prairie fire came along and I convinced my captors they needed my help
building a fire-break.  Well I whacked one with a shovel and nailed the
rest with his auto-rifle (panic fire!).  Once the fire was past, I took
the air-raft and was back in town inside a week! :-)

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:41:25 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Metator

I've been looking online for a copy of Metator.

The only copies I've found so far have timeout dates in 1997; where
can I find a version which won't force me to reset the computer's
date?

	-robert ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:55:54 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=

On the questions of other races, the PAK would  see them as a threat to
their clans.
They would  have to be exterminated for the safety of their breeder clan.

Especially the  K'kree.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:04:21 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Broken WIREs

> Jeffrey Rowse posted:
	--------------
> David wrote...
> 
> <<SNIP>>
> > Then there's repairing the
> >telescope itself of any damage cause by exposure to
> >unshielded solar energy in space (the hydrogen was
> >supposed to keep the 'scope cool). Again, the telescope
> >wasn't designed to be repaired and no pre-built tools
> >exist.
> <<UNSNIP>>
> 
> Firstly, the hydrogen was not there to protect the systems as such but
> to
> cool the infrared seeker head to prevent the satellite's own heat
> radiation
> blinding it (sort of like trying to look at the stars at night whilst
> standing under a street light).
> Secondly, whilst NASA probably will not do very much for a while,
> there is
> nothing that says someone could not transport the sat to Freedom/ISS
> at a
> later date.
> Thirdly, the only thing that can really stop a shuttle mission fixing
> WIRE
> is if NASA decide *not to* - where there's a will, there's a way.  One
> of
> the (often forgotten) Shuttle mission specs from way back when was
> that it
> should be able to retreive satellites for fixing - and not just those
> designed to be easily maintained in open space.
   --------------

And I'm one of those who forgot. Thanks for the
reminder.

   --------------
> BTW, fixing the leak and refilling the tank would be difficult *at
> this
> moment in time*.  Barring a miracle?  Remember, 19th Cetury scientists
> said
> man would suffocate if he travelled above 25mph, and (very early) 20th
> Century scientists said man would never fly.  Leonardo da Vinci
> proposed
> that man would be able to send pictures around the globe but the
> scientists
> of the time said "no way, semaphore would take too long"...
> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt
> of in
> *your* philosophies."
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds a little like a rant (it does when I reread
> it to
> myself out loud), but I get *a little angry* when people say that 'we'
> should stop spending money on space progams and spend it elsewhere -
> like
> finding better ways to kill each other.
	----------------
It is a rant and an undeserved one, Jeffrey.

I wasn't aware I said *anything* about stopping space program
expenditures. In fact, looking at my original post, I didn't.
And being an active member of the Planetary Society and the
National Space Society for the last 10 years, I'm proud to
have my name on the Carl Sagan Memorial Station on Mars, not
because it's "cool" but because of the knowledge gained by
the mission. I firmly believe that the sooner humanity gets
its collective butt off this planet, the better but it had
darn well get *something* for any money spent on any space
program in the meantime.

The WIRE satellite's mission is considered a total loss by NASA
representatives. According to the story on MSNBC, "We are very
disappointed at the loss of WIRE's science program," Ed
Weiler, NASA's associate administrator for space science, said
in a statement Monday.

The satellite *can* be used for engineering tests, which were
not part of the satellite's primary mission and definitely *not*
worth the amount of money put into the mission, *if_that_had_
been_the_satellite's_sole_reason_for_being_launched*. 

The fact the satellite can and will be used for something useful
despite the loss says something about the dedication of NASA
engineers to make their missions provide a return of some kind
and I take my hat off to them. I have personally seen the
results of their efforts with the Independent Space Station
and am stunned at the capabilities of humanity when such
capabilities are focused properly.

War is an incredibly stupid focus, caused by the selfishness
and greed of the shortsighted. The problem is until those
shortsighted morons grow up, the rest of us are forced to
waste resources keeping them at arm's length so that we can
live long enough to get into space.

The inadvertent loss of $79 million *scientific* mission truly
is a pity; the scientific knowledge of the human species could
really have been expanded in some areas and *that* goal is
*always* worth attempting.

The complete posting by MSNBC on the WIRE satellite loss can be
found at:    http://www.msnbc.com/news/245054.asp

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:06:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

In the beginning there came a humble miller, and yea, his name was Marc. 
Verily he wrote the Books of Marc, numbering eight, and they were good, so
that all abided by them.  Those that abideth by the eight books are known
as the Ceeteeyites, and they are holy.

Then was written the Book of Leviathan, and herein the first heresy was
pronounced: That torpedoes might leap the void as only ships had done
before.  Only some could abide by this, and they became the Torpedites.

Later came the Books of Errors.  Verily it mimicked the Books of Marc, but
made them unclean, so that none should abide by them.  Those that abideth
by the Books of Errors are known as the Emteeyites, and they are unholy.
Thou shalt not lie down with those who follow the Book of Errors, nor
shalt thou share dice with them, nor shalt thou give them provisions of
beer and pretzels.  

Now came the Book of Revelations, in which the end times are prophecied
thus: That a great plague shall ride the land destroying all.  This book
too is unclean and none shall abide by it.  Those who abideth by it are
known as the Teeyeneeyites, and they are unclean. Those who follow the
Book of Revelations are heretics and shall be stoned thrice with .1 C
rocks.

Finally, there was a second coming and a new form of the Books of Marc
were written, and they held great promise for all who followed them.  But
alas they were the works of false prophets and they fell by the wayside. 
For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc are
heretics and shall be plagued by lesbian Aslan space pirates with feudal
technocracies for governments. 

Know now that it has been prophecied thus: That the humble miller shall
rise again and proclaim another set of books.  But for now:

There is only one Traveller, and High Guard is its product...


Chuck the prophet (that's an order!) (<--this works on so many levels :-)

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:12:39 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: pakage expresss

  Brings to mind a new
>campaign
>
>Traveller:  The Pak Wars

I thought all protectors were male? Shouldn't that be

Traveller:   The Pak Man Wars
 Whats worse then a kraken?


A pregnant Kraken!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:22:55 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Les Howie wrote:
>
>> It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very much as
>> a factor in the games I have run.
>
>> Has anyone out their used planetary weather on their players?
>> If so, how did it come out.

I can think of one system in which weather plays a big factor: Vincennes in
Deneb sector.

Vincennes is a trinary system in which a companion star orbits the system's
primary star (the tertiary star is in far orbit). Anyway, Vincennes is over
90 percent water and when the companion star is at the point in its orbit
at which it is closest to Vincennes (IOW, in the summer), the world suffers
huge storms and other adverse effects . The storms and heat release sulphur
compounds from the planet's crust that bubble up from the oceans and make
the atmosphere unbreathable. 

At other times of year, the weather varies, but only in the spring, I
believe, can anyone actually go outside and breath the atmosphere without
any kind of breathing apparatus. Good thing the world is TL 16, eh?

I ran some adventures there and it was pretty fun to expose the characters
to the seasonal shifts of the planet. The planet has a pretty fast orbit,
so each season is only 50 days long. They had some fairly long-term
assignments and in some cases they were up against the wall to complete
certain tasks because they knew the bad weather was going to make travel
difficult.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:45:49 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity (Books of Marc)

Guess this makes Steve Jackson the Anti-Christ after all.  Pat Robertson was
right!



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          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
____________hosted_by____________
               www.downport.com
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:50:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

At 09:55 AM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote (re why not mass all your ships in one hex):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Lot's of good reasons depending on your starting assumtions.  The enemy can
>spread out and bypass you.  

Like I said, it depends on your assumptions.  In SFB the hexes as about
earth sized.  A gas giant fill many hexes and conbat takes place over
shorter time spans (about on subjective minute).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Most of the "keep together" ideas seem to assume some defined points
>in a star system that ships will automatically act to attack or defend -
>refuelling points, mainworlds, etc. Thus you can mass where the enemy
>must come, and he must mass to fight you there. The assumptions
>involved with this are the most critical to creating a game universe where
>ships have a reason to spread out.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Area effect weapons can hit all of your ships.
>Like a honking big Antimatter bomb. (T-bomb in SFB.)   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That would be one ungodly size area of effect weapon. "One hex" is much 
>bigger than most planets (for the weapon and movement scales we're talking
>about here).
>
>If the game universe includes such weapons, you'll also need a reason
>they're not used by the losing side against the biggest solo enemy ship
>they get a shot at. Better to get something for your limited-use, frightfully
>expensive doomsday weapon than to die with it unfired.
>
>Unless the *threat* of such weapons, though they are actually very rare,
>is sufficient to cause fleet dispersal as SOP.
>

Part of the 'limit' on the T-bombs is that they did not work well against
planets and that they were just powerfull enough to chew up a cruisers
shields or cripple a friget but would wipe out a drone cloud (Missles)
within a hex or the adjacent hexes.  They were 'dropped ordence' and not
mobile.  A space mine.  They came in two sizes.  A ten point small mine to
kill drones and fighters and carriable by most ships and a 35 point large
mine that could crush a cruiser's thickess shield but was carriable only by
specially equiped ships. (In SFB shields are directional and some ships have
week sheilds in curtain directions.) 

Ship battles in SFB tend to be fire and manuver.  Ships do not normally have
enough weapons to kill a fighter squadron in a single turn.  Fighter weapons
other than missles are very short ranged.  At short range (0 or 1 hex) a
single direct fire fighter can down a cruiser shield and three such fighters
will blow up the crusier.  At range 4+ most fighters are toast.  At ranges
over 10 a fighter can only really be effective with missles.  Missle
fighters rarely carry much direct fire weapons and direct fire fighters
rarely carry many missles.  Ships at range 10 kill fighters fairly easily.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>LOS blocking.  One
>moon blocks all the fire from all ships.  Colateral damage from our own
>ships exploding.  Interferience with each others sensors.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Again, big hexes. Though the idea of sensor interference may be worth
>exploring. Current ideas on sensors seem to say a bunch of ships close
>together can help each other, make their sensors work better instead
>of worse. If sensors have a different effect on each other then we need to
>explain why, and our game tech will be somewhat different than the
>directions FF&S and BL/BR have taken.
>
>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Not being able to
>tell what seeking weapon is seeking who.  Difficulty covering week spots in
>each others defenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If the ships are covering each other, then being closer together should
>be better. As for seeking weapons, if you are being shot at by so many

Not if their weekness was directional.  Say thin rear armor/shields.  Then
an forward attacker and a wing man or two would be a better formation.  Also
massing only aids point defense weapons.  If other anti missle systems are
available like decoys, ECM, exc. massing of ships might interfer with those
operations.  In SFB use of weapons negates decoys.  Again it depends on your
assumptions.  I have always thought it odd the rather short list of weapons
and defences avaiable in traveller.  What about active jamming and decoys?
What about loading a sandcaster with steel ball bearing to punch holes in
incoming missles?  VHROF gauss weapons for missle defence.  Gravity bombs,
atificial gravity devices that produce a short pulse of very strong gravity
to crush incoming missiles.  Multi-warhead anti missile missiles.  Unmaned
laser armed anti missle drone fighters the size of large missles.  Very
small very fast short range intercepter missles.  Gravity guns firing
steerable shells for missle defence.

>of them that you have to prioritize PD fire against ones coming at you,
>then your situation could only get worse by being far away from other
>friendly PD assets.
>
>Most interesting game mechanic I've ever seen for limiting the number
>of ships in a hex was from Metagaming's _Godsfire_. The FTL drives
>used in that wargame's universe caused a temporary weakening of
>the dimensional fabric. Too many drives at once in too small an area,
>and you ripped a hole in the universe. The last time it happened, the
>"Godsfire" disaster pretty much caused a short civilization collapse
>(much like the Darrian Maghiz) in the game area.
>
>Nice thing was, the game designers included rules for setting off
>another Godsfire during the game. Every time you massed a fleet
>above a certain level, or attacked an enemy fleet such that your
>fleet + his fleet were above a certain level, you risked losing both fleets
>and wrecking the economy of all the systems around where you were
>fighting. I've yet to play the game, but the idea seems to have 
>interesting possibile effects on a game universe.
>
>Walt Smith 
>
>

The game StarFire has the interesting mechanic that only one ship at a time
can transit through the 'worm holes' that are the only form of FTL.  The
reactionless drives the ships use also produce a shielding effect arround
the ships except to the rear where the ship is both blind and vunerable.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:54:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

>Then was written the Book of Leviathan, and herein the first heresy was
>pronounced: That torpedoes might leap the void as only ships had done
>before.  Only some could abide by this, and they became the Torpedites.


Heheh... Torpedites? "leap the void"? ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:51:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

Jeffrey Rowse writes:
> 
> Don't forget though that, once you've sandpapered all that armor away,
> there's an awfully large amount of interior that is open to vacuum - which
> also makes for ideal target practice.

Um...surface hits don't sandpaper away armor, they destroy things which are on
the surface.  Killing a target by ablating its armor is a ridiculously
inefficient way of killing something.

> Alternatively, replace all those 'dirty' nukes with gelled acid warheads
> and eat away the armor, then use your "wimpy lasers".
> 
> ObTrav: "Um, Captain?  You know that, uh, 'nuke' that passed through our
> damper and you said wouldn't hurt us?  Well, there's a funny fizzing coming
> from your cabin..."

Laugh.  Unless it's some sort of magic acid (replicating nanotech disassemblers
or something) the destructive ability of a volume of acid is so much lower than
the destructive ability of a contact missile for delivering the acid that they
would probably never detect the acid, unless after the battle they were doing
forensic work to try and find out who shot the missile.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:23:54 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

Rob Prior wrote:

><start non-canon>
>Suppose that fighters, instead of being small and hard-to-spot, are
>deliberately very visible, meant to imitate the signature of larger
>warships. Then when the squadron closes, the enemy has only a brief time
>to decide which ship to shoot at, so many shots will hit fighters rather
>than more important warships, which lets teh warships escape for another
>pass.
>
>This _does_ reduce fighter pilots from 'trained killers' to 'fancy
>targets', of course :-)
><end non-canon>

In essence, this is fitting a series of transponders to the fighter to
have the opposite effect to an EM Masking package - it's making the ship
have a bigger signature.

If you're going to do this, consider making the fighter either remote
controlled or autonomous.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:50:01 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Traveller space combat is sub combat? Cool - where are the sonar rules?

In space, no-one can hear you ping.

>>Good question. I'm thinking something along the lines of expensive
>>ships, meat grinders, and a reluctance to dump all your ships into a pot
>>with all the enemy ships and gamble it all at one go.
>
>  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
>to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?

Jutland, where the winning fleet was divided.

Trafalgar, where the winning fleet was divided.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:39:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: VERY OT and Americacentric, but very funny...

Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:

> The Koreans foolishly tried to pull a sneak attack on the fleet while
> negotiations were going on. The Marines stormed the fortress and took
> it and several others. When the Koreans *still* showed no signs of
> being willing to negotiate in good faith, it was decided to leave. I
> don't recall if they left the fortifications intact or not. Knowing the
> Marines, unless they had *specific* orders to the contrary, they at
> least would have burned them.

Nah.  We *never* burn anything that we can blow up instead! :^)

        - Mark C.
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:47:33 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components

Nice list. May I suggest adding trafic control sensors (ground or orbital)
and a trafic control center?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:45:51 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Group One adventures

Saw something on EBay I'd never seen before - Traveller adventures from
a company called Group One. Anyone heard of these?

Lomodo IV
Mission to Zephor
Nystalux
Nithus
Pen-Latol's World

They look to have been printed around 1981.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:49:49 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: WIRE Satellite Total Loss

> is the orbit low enough for a shuttle fix it mission?

It's in a polar orbit. The shuttle can't reach a polar orbit from Florida,
and the polar-shuttle launch facility at Vandenberg was never completed.
(And, anyway, even from Vandenberg shuttles have very little payload into
polar orbit.)

The good part is that it's only a $70 million mission including launch
costs. Since a shuttle flight costs $100-500 million depending on how your
accountant thinks, it's cheaper to launch a whole new one. That's the good
part of faster-cheaper missions like this; you can contemplate reflying them.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:52:20 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:  Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

I try to work in the atmosphere ratings as well.  One of the most memorable 
occaisions was a planet where the atmosphere was so insidious that 2 hrs in a 
Vac suit was _the_ max, and the ship could only be safely exposed for 24 
hours.  The whole (small) population lived underground.

There were a few native flora that were very tough skinned and tended to to 
grow downwards in search of usuable water and nutrients.  The population used 
these roots to filter out a lot of the chemicals and to get some tolerable water.

The overall effect was impressive to my players and added a lot of color to the 
scenario, the planet, and the people.


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:56:20 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Broken WIREs

>Thirdly, the only thing that can really stop a shuttle mission fixing WIRE
>is if NASA decide *not to* - where there's a will, there's a way.

Except for the laws of physics; shuttles launched from Florida can't reach
WIRE's orbit without overflying the whole east coast (generally frowned upon.)
And the laws of economics; shuttle flights cost $100-500 million, WIRE
including launch costs was $71 million. (A replacement WIRE without launch
costs would probably be $10 million.) 

So yes, it
is marginally possible to imagine a repair, but it makes no sense at all.
Short of (ObTrav) someone giving me a reactionless-drive ship with a big
pressurized cargo bay...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:59:21 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:
>>As long as we're debating physics, _none_ of the existing Traveller rules
>>really model the effects of strategic in-system maneuvering. All of them
>>have fleets on essentially matched courses, slugging it out.  If you
>>expand to a strategic level, battles become a series of passes at
>>relatively high speeds, as squadrons maneuver to pass close to the enemy,
>>then return for another pass (or keep going).
>
>  _High Guard_ & _TCS_ ignore in-system maneuvering; TCS pretty much assumes
>that it's not relevant as the Intruder always wants something in the inner
>system (target, L-Hyd, engagement) - if they didn't they would have jumped to
>deep space to conceal their movements.
>
>  As the most important targets are not (for socio-political reasons?) subject
>to annihilative bombardment a high speed pass (allowing for only a round or
>two of combat (and deployment of _lots_ of BB's :> ) between fleets might not
>be acceptable, but it's a very poor way to interdict enemy access to most
>locations; loitering and keeping V low enough to offer protracted combat will
>allow the choice of inflicting much greater damage.
>
>>The exceptions will be battles for a 'stationary' location, like a planet
>>or asteroid mine.
>
>  This may very well be a good enough justification for the simplification to
>be "correct" in 80%+ of the cases.

As a counterargument, I suggest and include as reference the
body of Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels, wherein strategic
maneuvering is aptly demonstrated to often have more significant
effects than the pure balance of forces would indicate.
The combination of limited intelligence / knowledge / sensor
capabilities and strategic maneuvering are portrayed very
well, with both competent and incompetent fleet commanders,
and the effects demonstrated repeatedly (plus, he may be
the only sci fi author to have a working grasp of vector
addition movement dynamics... ;-)


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #271
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 11 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 272



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: Canonicity
Re: MT Software Request
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Metator
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Pak Protectors
Re: Canonicity
re: Metator
Walts rewrite of HG
Re: Canonicity
Re: Broken WIREs (slightly OT)
Re: Canonicity (Books of Marc)
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Passports and Paperwork
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Pak Protectors
Re: pakage expresss
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #268

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:59:21 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>>Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes:
>>As long as we're debating physics, _none_ of the existing Traveller rules
>>really model the effects of strategic in-system maneuvering. All of them
>>have fleets on essentially matched courses, slugging it out.  If you
>>expand to a strategic level, battles become a series of passes at
>>relatively high speeds, as squadrons maneuver to pass close to the enemy,
>>then return for another pass (or keep going).
>
>  _High Guard_ & _TCS_ ignore in-system maneuvering; TCS pretty much assumes
>that it's not relevant as the Intruder always wants something in the inner
>system (target, L-Hyd, engagement) - if they didn't they would have jumped to
>deep space to conceal their movements.
>
>  As the most important targets are not (for socio-political reasons?) subject
>to annihilative bombardment a high speed pass (allowing for only a round or
>two of combat (and deployment of _lots_ of BB's :> ) between fleets might not
>be acceptable, but it's a very poor way to interdict enemy access to most
>locations; loitering and keeping V low enough to offer protracted combat will
>allow the choice of inflicting much greater damage.
>
>>The exceptions will be battles for a 'stationary' location, like a planet
>>or asteroid mine.
>
>  This may very well be a good enough justification for the simplification to
>be "correct" in 80%+ of the cases.

As a counterargument, I suggest and include as reference the
body of Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels, wherein strategic
maneuvering is aptly demonstrated to often have more significant
effects than the pure balance of forces would indicate.
The combination of limited intelligence / knowledge / sensor
capabilities and strategic maneuvering are portrayed very
well, with both competent and incompetent fleet commanders,
and the effects demonstrated repeatedly (plus, he may be
the only sci fi author to have a working grasp of vector
addition movement dynamics... ;-)


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:18:18 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

Walter Smith posted:
>
>Saw something on EBay I'd never seen before - Traveller adventures from
>a company called Group One. Anyone heard of these?
>
>Lomodo IV
>Mission to Zephor
>Nystalux
>Nithus
>Pen-Latol's World
>
>They look to have been printed around 1981.
>
>Walt Smith

I have Pen-Latol's World and Lomodo IV as well as
Group One's Theta Borealis sector. Group One's
material is, IMO, of extremely low quality (on the
order of Judges Guild material)in comparison to
Traveller publications by FASA and BITS.

The sectors are usable but very light in detail. Unless
desperate for ideas or a hard-core collector, I wouldn't
pay more than $5.00 US each. YMMV.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:16:13 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

|Saw something on EBay I'd never seen before - Traveller adventures from
|a company called Group One. Anyone heard of these?


Yes.  Rather gaudy dungeon crawls, mostly.  Pen-Latol's World is decent.
They are amusing, but ugly.  All published in '81/82. Here's the complete
list:

Encounters in the Corelian Quadrant - Supplement
Encounters in the Phoenix Quadrant - Supplement
Encounters in the Ventura Quadrant - Supplement
Geptorem -Adventure
Hydronaut - Supplement
Lamodo IVa - Adventure
Marinagua - Supplement
Mission to Zephor - Adventure
Nithus - Adventure
Nystalux - Adventure
Pen-Latol's World - Adventure
Port Xanatath - Adventure
Sapies - Adventure
Theta Borealis Sector - Supplement
Wabor-Parn - Supplement

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:42:28 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

>Saw something on EBay I'd never seen before - Traveller adventures from
>a company called Group One. Anyone heard of these?

  AFAIK, they tend to be really bad; I traded my only one to a somewhat
berserk (IMHO) completist...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:44:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fighter Screens
...
>>  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
>>to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?
>
>Jutland, where the winning fleet was divided.
>
>Trafalgar, where the winning fleet was divided.

  Operationally, not strategically. The difference if the engaged British 
forces had been split between the North Sea and the Channel and Gibraltar
and the Channel respectively is noted?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:27:13 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>> A serious reply: Even if you kept the old style designs a lot of starports
>> and other maps had been drawn on the basis of a Millennium Falcon Style
>> Drive, not a Plasma Torch. This is a problem if you use old material.
>
>I see absolutely nothing that says the 'plasma torch' has to be a gigantic
>plume, in an atmosphere.

My gut feel is that it would be a problem, if only in the same way that
afterburners are (cracked runway anyone?). YMMV. It is possibly a problem
for space stations, but you could use a shuttle OMS type system instead.

> I'm not a vehement anti T-plate person, though I do
>prefer HEPLaR, if just for aesthetics

LOL! Thats exactly my feeling, but vice versa! I like HEPLaR for lower tech
units, and as afterburners for T-Plate ships.

>Again, T-plates (amongst
>other manuever drives) were provided ....

As an unofficial 'alternative'...

>for those who had an attachment for the
>old style designs and starports, etc.  Nothing stopping anyone from fudging
>the equations or introducing grav focusing for high energy weapons, as
>provided.

>TNE wasn't about one universe, but the possibilities of many,
>though there was no support given, though 2300AD would've probably been first
>out the gate, had GDW not bitten the big one.  FF&S, as another pointed out,
>is practically a universe design kit.

That is what I liked about TNE - the technical architecture. I would love
to have seen it done properly for T5.

>> A Silly Reply: Fusion Guns are Space Weapons (3 systems to 2 vote)... cf
>> High Guard.  - " There is no game but Traveller and High Guard is its
>
>LOL.  hmm...  CT, MT.  But my GT lacks all mention of them (Yes, i've actually
>cracked the cover on it.  Arent' they in Star Mercs?  What was the handwave
>used?

Yes, there're in Star Mercs, and are pretty much close range weapons. (8000
and 11000 mi Max).

>And what ranges etc).  FF&S 1 and 2 don't have them as such.  I'd call
>that a tie until I here just how Star Mercs treats them.  And i'll take BR
>over HG any day of the week.  ;-)

I like both; BL is too complex for anyone but serious gamers... it would
switch most of my players off..

>> product"- Virus is flawed because it broke the Imperium badly.
>
>Only a flaw if you don't want the Imperium broke. If you don't like the
>Imperium, on the other hand (or rather, don't like it intact, but think it can
>be an inspirational vision of past grandeur (and folly) ala Rome in medieval
>Europe)... ;-)

I would have prefered to have seen the Hard Times background continue - the
light of the Imperium going out, with a collection of Pocket Empires and
the Wilds between. Virus is brilliantly audacious, but I would have
prefered the slow slide to Collapse, and a few systems/polities holding
candles against the darkness. The Regency handwave does bug me a little -
the RC is in some ways more interesting, in others tedious. The Regency is
interesting in the sense it continues the story.

>Debatable.  Some of GT (especially if you're going to use G:V and/or the many
>personal combat options) and T4 (FFS2) are alot more reminiscent of TNE than
>the older ones.  Only CT and GT lack a true task system.  MT is just
>recompiled CT w/ DGPs task system.  T4 is a hybrid, if anything.  Aside from
>an irrational dislike of any dice unique to role playing, there's only the
>stat/skill balance that draws credible criticism.  Most of the personal combat
>is highly modular and ignorable (recoil, knockdown, hit location, etc).
>Lethality is easily modified (double damage for short range, T2k Quick Kill,
>etc). Things can be organized and interpreted many ways, no?  lol.

I have a problem with the GDW house system; it seemed over complex (much as
CT's combat does to me). You may disagree ;-/

>Not looking to start a flamefest, either, nor do I think we're headed for one.
>And of course no minds are going to be changed and we'll keep playing enjoying
>the versions we like, despite all the posturing.  :-)

I know. I agree.

>> thing? Depends on your point of view. TNE at its best was thought
>> provoking, and combined feelings of pathos and hope. At its worst it was
>> clunky and revisionist. I'm sad the storyline ended but aren't really
>
>LOL.  That is funny.  That's exactly what I said of MT & T4 when i held an MT
>boxed set, TNE Deluxe (mk 1 mod 1), and T4 and compared them, when deciding
>which one I'd get.  Didn't see nor acquire any CT until after then (and I
>still have as much T4 as I do CT), though i went back and got the MT box
>(didn't have an Imperial Encyclopedia seperately).

Hmm. Possibly the two best non-system specific supplements Imp Encyclopedia
and Survival Margin.

I bought TNE pre-mod 1.... it may have flavoured my views (but I do have
most supplements except Hivers and Personalities).

My favourite Trav setting is Hard Times, followed by Spinward Marches 1105
to 1120 on a par with M0.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:34:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: MT Software Request

 "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us> wrote:

>Sorry, my bad.  IBM PC, low end Pentium, under Win95.  I have the
>MSOffice97 suite, so Excel spreadsheets will work, but I'd prefer an
>actual stand-alone, if available.

Apologies then, I can't help. I only have Rob Prior's MacOS stuff on my site.

Good luck in finding anything.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:01:09 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

"Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de> wrote:

>If you put fighters 10displ with a single Size DM of 3 into a fighter sqdr of
>example 30 fighters the dm is reduced to 2 but the fighters can now put their
>weapons together to push the ucp of the weapons up.

Combining laser batteries is already legitimate in MT IIRC.

>My players have fought some battles and it really looked like starwars small
>fighters running around the big ships ones.

Sadly, this is a big turn off for me. YMMV but I like the big slow fleet
monsters (eg Starship Trooper's ships).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:46:51 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Metator

 ringrose@ascent.com  writes:
>I've been looking online for a copy of Metator.
>
>The only copies I've found so far have timeout dates in 1997; where
>can I find a version which won't force me to reset the computer's
>date?

You can't, because there isn't one.  I'm rewriting it to be compatible
with GT:First In.

IGS is available, though. Check out the BITS web site: www.bits.org.uk and
Steve Jackson Games are the only sites that should have my software on
them (SJG has GT Shipyard, as it's a licensed product.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:47:48 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

|  AFAIK, they tend to be really bad; I traded my only one to a somewhat
|berserk (IMHO) completist...


Hey!  I resemble that remark :-p



  ==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
____________hosted_by____________
               www.downport.com 
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:54:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Charles Collin wrote:

> 	Now the interesting debate starts:  Who would win?  The 3I and the

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

WHO HAS THE BIGGEST PENIS??????

Finis.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:56:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Charles Collin wrote:

[snip something that will be saved in perpetuity wheresoever I wander]

> For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc are
> heretics and shall be plagued by lesbian Aslan space pirates with feudal
> technocracies for governments. 

So can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the T4 rulebook?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:57:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Metator

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:

>The only copies I've found so far have timeout dates in 1997; where
>can I find a version which won't force me to reset the computer's
>date?

I don't think Rob put out a version without that limitation.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:04:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Walts rewrite of HG

Walt,

I haven't said much on the thread but I'd be interested in seeing a system
like that you propose.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:55 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

- -----Original Message-----
|> For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc are
|> heretics and shall be plagued by lesbian Aslan space pirates with feudal
|> technocracies for governments. 
|
|So can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the T4 rulebook?
|
|Kenji

False-Prophets 'R' Us, there's one is a starport near you.



  ==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
____________hosted_by____________
               www.downport.com 
     A home for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:50:50 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Broken WIREs (slightly OT)

David et al,

<<SNIP>>
It is a rant and an undeserved one, Jeffrey.
<<UNSNIP>>


That should have been interpreted more as "I am apologising 'cos it sounds
like a rant to me, and I am the one who wrote it" than as a tirade aimed at
anyone on this list.  It should really have had an 'IMO' in there somewhere,
as it was aimed at the narrow-minded people who make a lot of noise without
understanding what they are making noise about - the fact that 'we' are even
using this mailing list suggests that we either do know, or want to find out
more, before we sound off.

Again, I apologise for causing offence.

Jeff R.

(ps I only get called 'Jeffrey' by my boss, and my wife or parents when I do
something wrong...  ouch.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:03:25 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity (Books of Marc)

"Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> types out from behind the claw:
>Guess this makes Steve Jackson the Anti-Christ after all.  Pat Robertson was
>right!
 
Not Pat, Tipper Gore...

Ok, Pat too.  Can't leave out Tipper though...




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" 
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore 
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the 
Tiananmen massacre 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:33:57 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

>   It's far from clear that B:2 or HG2 drives are reactionless; HG1, Mayday,
> and TNE of course are quite explicit in their use of reaction drives. So is
> Triplanetary, FWIW :)  I'm afraid that I'm not qualified to answer the
sensor
> question in RL, but in Traveller the answer is assumed to be yes at Stellar
TLs.

Well said.  MT is also vague until u get to the SoM/DGP.  So whenever I hear
the claim that reactionless drive T-plates are CT, I can't help but chuckle.
The power plants can't be that fuel inefficient!  ;-)  

> to conceal all those aspects to make sense, won't it? If the ID issue is a
> really important one, then all ships would have sensor drones a la 2300 AD
to
> deploy; the fact that they don't is either a simplification, an error, or a
> statement that CT sensors don't require them (TNE uses drones sometimes?).

Yes.  Drones are very important, but ignored alot of the time.  Can use active
sensors and area jammes if need be from there, getting good range and info w/o
giving away yourself.  Also can keep an enemy from actually spotting your
ships/task forces.  Have enough drones and dummy task forces running around
and whenever they get a lock on something, detonate a missile and cause a
white out that probably loses any locks they have.  Merge and intertwine the
dummies and drones and if you're skilled enough, you'll get to sneak in some
real combatants damned close into very deadly range while the enemy chases and
attempts to engage red herrings.

One question I do have for the resident sensors expert (Bruce M) and anyone
else knowledgable in such matters (Shadow, I would presume) is on the dummy
task forces.  Are these "realistic" assuming the use of decoys, EMS Jammers,
etc or just a game construct?  I'm doing a more thorough and consistent merger
of BL & BR for my upcoming campaigns and need to know.  :-)

It's not submarine combat, though.  For one, DSR basically proves it's nearly
impossible to actually hide the location of a ship w/ huge power outputs (all
the radiator stuff aside).  "Bogey" detection is practically guaranteed for
quite a ways out unless extreme measures are taken (powering down, etc).  It's
the actual 'hard' sensors and weapons locks that are the trick (and I stick w/
BL/BR for them).  

It's much better than sub combat IMO.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:33:59 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork

> For those of us starting our own TU:  What types of documentation are
> Traders required to carry _within_ the Imperium?  When crossing the borders
> of the Imperium?  How much influence does the world government have?  When
> would the Imperium sieze a vessel, and why?

I don't think there's anything in the 3I, aside from references to regulations
requiring annual maintenance and certification, etc.  The Solomani
Confederation requires various licences to certain worlds, which deliberately
encourages traffic to and from worlds with significant party support.  The 3I
is supposed to be all bout free trade, or at least that's been my take on it.
Memberworlds have to recognize Imperial territory: the starport and the space
"between the stars."  Some worlds probably don't extend influence beyond
what's covered by their COACC.  Others control portions of their own system
with their own forces.  As long as trade isn't hampered and Imperial hegemony
challenged, they can pretty much do what they want, which could include
extradition of PCs.  :-)

As far as crossing the Imperiums borders?  Hmm...  I don't know of anything
specifically referencing this (or I don't recall), but this brings to mind the
Interface & Terminus worlds of the Regency.  I imagine a scaled down version
of these (along w/ something similar to the Regency Frontier) would be in
place near the larger polities (Solomani Confederation, especially).   

I don't think the Imperium is in the habit of seizing vessels as long as they
don't break rules on slavery, nuclear weapons, etc, which would probably going
to get them destroyed along w/ their owners, assuming they don't surrender.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:43:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

At 08:37 AM 3/11/99 -0500, Ian wrote:

>	I'd be happy to, but don't be disapointed. I'm an old
>	CT player and I tend to follow the KISS principal,

What, you make your players dress up in black leather costumes and paint
their faces white?

"I.. want to play Traveller allll niighht.. and party every day!"
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:45:55 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

In a message dated 3/11/99 2:57:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:

> On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Charles Collin wrote:
>  
>  > 	Now the interesting debate starts:  Who would win?  The 3I and the
>  
>  Oh, fer cryin' out loud.
>  
>  WHO HAS THE BIGGEST PENIS??????
>  

Well, actually, Pak protectors don't have penises.  Not even the ones that
used to be male.

I don't think we breeders would want to tangle with them anyway.

:-).

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:09:03 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: pakage expresss

Samir wrote:
>>>>
  Brings to mind a new
>campaign
>
>Traveller:  The Pak Wars

I thought all protectors were male? Shouldn't that be

Traveller:   The Pak Man Wars
>>>>
No, the protectors were neuter.  They could be male or female before
their transformation, but afterwards were neuter.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:06:27 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
>>to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?
>
>Jutland, where the winning fleet was divided.
>
>Trafalgar, where the winning fleet was divided.

  Operationally, not strategically. The difference if the engaged British 
forces had been split between the North Sea and the Channel and Gibraltar
and the Channel respectively is noted?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMO, I've been talking about operational-level combat (or at least
the grey area between operational and tactical). In Traveller terms,
Channel vs Gibraltar is akin to Regina vs Ruie.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:31:40 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #268

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:20:50 -0500, "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

>From: Paul Schirf <pc@PerkWorks.com>

>|One possible option for Downport.com that may prove interesting to those of
>|us with websites that we DO NOT want to move would be the ability to host a
>|simple HTML Frameset at DOWNPORT... We could point the contents to our
>|current sites... and maintain the sites at their CURRENT location.

>Workable idea.  I can see how this might be popular, if we do it right.

This is what come.to does; there's actually a slight flaw in the
concept - you can't specify a sub-URL (e.g.,
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller/features/stories/Default.htm).
However, I've been thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm
pretty sure that you could get the additional capability by using
a CGI.  SwordWorlder, I'd be willing to discuss this in more
detail with you and Ron privately if Downport is interested in
this idea.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #272
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 11 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 273



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: Canonicity
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Broken WIREs (slightly OT)
Re: pakage expresss
Re: Canonicity
Re: Pak Protectors
Re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Canonicity
re: Metator
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Group One adventures
Re: Starport Modular Components
re: Fighter Screens
Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
[none]
Re:
Re: 
Book Recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:35:43 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

>As a counterargument, I suggest and include as reference the
>body of Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels

>(plus, he may be
>the only sci fi author to have a working grasp of vector
>addition movement dynamics... ;-)

Although having ships that can accelerate at hundreds (or missiles at
thousands) of G's kind of takes the stuffing out of newtonian movement.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:36:12 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> In the beginning there came a humble miller, and yea, his name was Marc.
> Verily he wrote the Books of Marc, numbering eight, and they were good, so
> that all abided by them.  Those that abideth by the eight books are known
> as the Ceeteeyites, and they are holy.
> 
Does that mean that Traveller can be referred to as "The Miller's Tale"?
;-)

<<snip>>


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:43:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

>[are dummy task forces in BL/BR realistic]?

I think the short answer is no in general; I assume in BR that they're a way
of having limited intelligence (=uncertainty about where the enemy is)
without having hidden movement - a good game compromise, but not anything
specific or "real" any more than a stack of hidden blank counters in 
"Squad Leader" is really a bunch of cardboard soldier cutouts propped up
with sticks.

One could imagine making IR/visible blip enhancers, though - it's an
interesting problem.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:46:06 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

Yepper....Got them all!  Never took them out of the wrapper (wrappers seem
to be an after thought, maybe not even there on the original release.)

Thom

****************************************************************************
*******************

From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Group One adventures


Saw something on EBay I'd never seen before - Traveller adventures from
a company called Group One. Anyone heard of these?

Lomodo IV
Mission to Zephor
Nystalux
Nithus
Pen-Latol's World

They look to have been printed around 1981.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:48:28 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Broken WIREs (slightly OT)

Jeffrey Rowse
>
>David et al,
>
><<SNIP>>
>It is a rant and an undeserved one, Jeffrey.
><<UNSNIP>>
>
>
>That should have been interpreted more as "I am apologising 'cos it
sounds
>like a rant to me, and I am the one who wrote it" than as a tirade
aimed at
>anyone on this list.  It should really have had an 'IMO' in there
somewhere,
>as it was aimed at the narrow-minded people who make a lot of noise
without
>understanding what they are making noise about - the fact that 'we' are
even
>using this mailing list suggests that we either do know, or want to
find out
>more, before we sound off.
>
>Again, I apologise for causing offence.
>
>Jeff R.
>
>(ps I only get called 'Jeffrey' by my boss, and my wife or parents when
I do
>something wrong...  ouch.

'sigh'

And I apologize for *choosing* to take offence, Jeff. I'm embarassed to
realize I have another "button" which can be pushed. They get in the
way of my becoming an adult and I've been trying to get rid of them for
the last 25 years.  :-/

I would greatly appreciate it if you would please consider it forgiven
and
forgotten. It would seem we're both dedicated to the human species
attaining its potential and have had occasion to be disappointed.  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:12:26 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: pakage expresss

Actually Protectors are sexless after transformation.
They can be male or female to start.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 11:16 AM
Subject: pakage expresss


>  Brings to mind a new
>>campaign
>>
>>Traveller:  The Pak Wars
>
>I thought all protectors were male? Shouldn't that be
>
>Traveller:   The Pak Man Wars
> Whats worse then a kraken?
>
>
>A pregnant Kraken!
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:32:50 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

At 12:06 pm 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>as the Ceeteeyites, and they are holy.

>by the Books of Errors are known as the Emteeyites, and they are
unholy.

>known as the Teeyeneeyites, and they are unclean. Those who follow
the

>For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
are

	Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
in? And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:30:11 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

At 04:45 pm 3/11/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/11/99 2:57:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Charles Collin wrote:
>>  
>>  > 	Now the interesting debate starts:  Who would win?  The 3I and
the
>>  
>>  Oh, fer cryin' out loud.
>>  
>>  WHO HAS THE BIGGEST PENIS??????
>>  
>
>Well, actually, Pak protectors don't have penises.  Not even the
ones that
>used to be male.

	IIRC, their genitals become a second heart ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:23:09 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components

At 12:38 pm 3/11/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 21:35 10/03/1999 -0600, Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
wrote:
>>General Products Retail Catalog
>>issue 1107-200
>>Starport Modular Components
>>
>>Component                          Price (MCr)
><snip>
>
>>Module T: Control Towers
>>T-6 capacity 1t/wk avg              1
>>T-7 capacity 10t/wk avg             10
>>T-8 capacity 100t/wk avg            100
>>T-9 capacity 1000t/wk avg           1000
>>T-10 capacity 10kt/wk avg           10,000
>>T-11 capacity 100kt/wk avg          100,000
>
>A T-6 can cope with 1 air/raft per month?
>100MCr to cope with two free traders per month?
>Maximum capacity 5 mega freighters per year?
>
>Unless I am missing something, you need to multiply the
>tonnage capacity by 1,000 or more.

	What does the size of the ship have to do with whether you can give
it landing direction or not? It should be how MANY ships, regardless
of size. To the LAX tower, they don't care much if it's a 747, or a
Cessna  ... 

(Yeah, I know the Cessna's gotta stay a lot further behind big birds
to avoid wingtip vortices rolling it over, and you gotta keep the big
guys further away from the Cessna so they don't catch up and plow
through it ... you get my meaning.)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:43:58 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Military Combat System (was re: Fighter Screens)

j a c schrieb:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:12 -0800 bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan
> Macintosh) writes:
> >
> >It isn't on the web yet because it's a work in progress, but I'm
> >willing to
> >email drafts to people who want one.
> >
> >Bruce
> =====


I would be interested in this project, too

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:32:39 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Good God yes! You mean you never have before? Try this - its one of my
previous (CT) games.

Outline - Players are from Efate (feel free to change it). Conditions there
are pretty good - thin, but tainted atmosphere (high methane concentration
(in my game). that makes for a world with no heavy trade winds, high
greenhouse gas levels and so a steady temperature. It does have the problem
of the occasional hurricane, but apart from that no-one takes much notice of
the weather - they can all get indoors fairly easily anyway, given the tech
and population. Put it another way, its deeply, irretrievably, civilised -
and so are the players.

You are asked to go find a bloke on Whanga, pick him up and bring him home
to Efate. Simple, especially since the world is stunningly similar to
Efate - check the stats.

Options:
    1.    No problem at all. Your pickup is waiting for you.
    2.    Slight problem - he's on the run and your patron is a bounty
hunter. He will NOT be happy to see you!
    3.    He has upset the locals (what there are of them) and is in hiding.
He has a tracer you can track - but the locals might track you.
    4.    Spoilt rich brat - waiting for you alright, but he expects a
luxury trip back home.
    5.    Major problem - he's a mercenary under siege by the locals.
Extract him - and his team.
    6.    Disaster - he has a seriously contagious disease and Efate needs
him for their bioweapons research. Dead or alive.

Simple seeds, I know - I'll skip the NPCs I set up - I'm sure you can find
your own easily enough. The crunch is the difference in the planets (note
that Whanga is off the main lanes - the planetary stats are probably all the
players will ask for anyway, but that's about all you should give them even
if they ask for more). If the players have their own ship, let them go with
it - otherwise, they can get a charter ship out, and it will wait for no
more than the 2 weeks standard turnaround for cargo and so on. Everything
else, they need to buy before they go.

Now, the difference - Whanga has a standard tainted atmosphere (also
methane). This makes a major difference - with 60% hydrographics, what we
have here is a greenhouse-hot, humid hell-hole of a planet. Constant driving
winds, regular and torrential rainstorms, hurricanes all the time (try
reading 'Mother of Storms' first), staggering electrical thunderstorms, and
even regular tornadoes. Any bets that the players don't even take a tent?
Bit stupid on a planet with barely a hundred people on it (why do you think
its so underpopulated?). Chances are the storms will kill them, especially
if they don't have an ATV and a survival shelter at the very least. Mine
died quickly, and never even found the pick-up.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Les_Howie@keane.com <Les_Howie@keane.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 10 March 1999 21:59
Subject: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?


>
>
>It occurred to me today that I have not used weather very much as a factor
in
>the games I have run.
>
[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:34:10 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)

Will you host links to other Traveller sites?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@clinic.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 10 March 1999 22:00
Subject: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)


[snip]
>This new place is www.downport.com , a domain (name) and server (at a large
>hosting company) dedicated to Traveller
[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:48:32 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Douglas E. Berry
"What, you make your players dress up in black leather 
costumes and paint their faces white?

"I.. want to play Traveller allll niighht.. and party every day!"
- - -- "

	Words fail me :)

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:47:21 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 12:06 pm 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >as the Ceeteeyites, and they are holy.
> 
> >by the Books of Errors are known as the Emteeyites, and they are
> unholy.
> 
> >known as the Teeyeneeyites, and they are unclean. Those who follow
> the
> 
> >For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
> are
> 
>         Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
> in?

Ecumenicalists.

> And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?

Eris is a self-confessed heretic.  One would conclude that he should
receive _all_ of the punishments stipulated, but they wouldn't do any
good.  Besides, where would the Party be without an Emmanuel Goldstein?

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:10:13 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Metator

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>IGS is available, though. Check out the BITS web site: www.bits.org.uk and
>Steve Jackson Games are the only sites that should have my software on
>them (SJG has GT Shipyard, as it's a licensed product.)

Some of Rob's material is still at my own site-

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

Real life has intervened on my rebuild of the site, so the page is somewhat
out of date. The links to IGS, QSDS, Infini-V on that page should be
disregarded as (a) the link will 404 as the files aren't there, and (b) the
versions of the software at http://www.bits.org.uk/ are better (more
recent).

The old Metator (which will only work up until end-97) is on the Cybergoths
page, as is MegaCharacter (Rob's MT Character Generator for Hypercard).
These pages will be rationalised when I get a free weekend; this weekend is
right out because I'm at Towercon (along with Andy Lilly) for BITS.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:19:17 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

At 01:43 PM 11/03/99, you wrote:
>At 08:37 AM 3/11/99 -0500, Ian wrote:
>
>>	I'd be happy to, but don't be disapointed. I'm an old
>>	CT player and I tend to follow the KISS principal,
>
>What, you make your players dress up in black leather costumes and paint
>their faces white?
>
>"I.. want to play Traveller allll niighht.. and party every day!"

        LOL!
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:19:17 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

At 04:33 PM 11/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>
>One question I do have for the resident sensors expert (Bruce M) and anyone
>else knowledgable in such matters (Shadow, I would presume) is on the dummy
>task forces.  Are these "realistic" assuming the use of decoys, EMS Jammers,
>etc or just a game construct?  I'm doing a more thorough and consistent merger
>of BL & BR for my upcoming campaigns and need to know.  :-)
>

        Well, one anti-missile system currently in use by some ships is a
big foil bag that you throw over the side and steer away from...  it
inflates rapidly and begins "sqeualing" all over the EM band.  To a missile,
it looks like another "ship" has just appeared.  Most missiles work on the
"Burger King Theory" (first come, first served), so you deploy the decoy up
threat and the missile picks it off instead.
        Add 7 TLs and the GDP of a planet, and I am fairly sure you could
create something along the lines of the SFB "Wild Weasel"...  a
shuttle-sized or smaller craft that is designed to make every EMCON mistake
in the book, and thereby appear to be a much larger vessel.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:16:56 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Group One adventures

Hi Walt,

I had a chance to examine all of these when they came out way back when.  In
my opinion, they were mediocre, even by the standards of the time.  But, if
your desire is to build up the ultimate collection of Traveller materials, I
say go for it.  They were approved as I recall.
Good luck!

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:28:31 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Modular Components

I would expect that high TL satellites would be able to plot its own
position against the planet, the system's sun and probably other celestial
bodies as well.
If the satellite can plot it's own position it can tell a receiver where it
is in relation to the satellite, but like modern GPS it will display the
information in a way the user can understand, in a planetary latitude and
longitude scale or by map grid.
The same kind of device in an orbiting spacecraft should be able to tell a
shuttle, air boat, or explorer planetside where they are.  By launching a
satellite or two while in orbit a ship could quickly set up a planet wide
communication network. This will allow a scout team to remain in touch with
their ship, even when on the far side of the planet, even on an airless
world, which has no ionosphere.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:52:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Fighter Screens
...
>>>  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
>>>to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?
...
>IMO, I've been talking about operational-level combat (or at least
>the grey area between operational and tactical). In Traveller terms,
>Channel vs Gibraltar is akin to Regina vs Ruie.

  ISTR your referring to ops "across significant portions of a system",
and that ships would have their encounters on an effectively uncontrolled
and semi-random basis - i.e., that squadron (/fleet) coherence would be
either impossible or undesirable. Is this apprehension mistaken?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:13:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

	In the past I've used a system like this:

	Each ship can TARGET one detected enemy ship.

	Once targeting is declared by all forces, each ship can fire at the ship it
targeted and at any ship that has targeted it.

	Ships can target a Friendly ship instead of an enemy ship, and so can fire at
any ship that targets the same ship (this is called Escort Targeting)

	This system is meant to simulate the need for ships to pass relatively close
to one another in a brief pass each combat turn, coupled with the bigness of
space.

	Fighters in this system have a decent chance of attacking the support ships
of an enemy fleet, requiring Escort vessels to protect them.  

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:22:00 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: [none]

In GT combat can be very submarine like. A ship that want's to remain hidden
can shut down its active sensors and transponder.  As long as it only uses
PESA a very skillful operator using really good AESA will be necessary to
find it at anything but relatively short ranges.  A ship might be passed
undetected until it fires its weapons.  Then, just like a submarine, its
location is compromised.
 I would expect that this would be a typical tactic for both pirates and
SDB's.  GT doesn't cover the use of drones or dumb bombs or mines.
Hopefully GURPS Traveller:Imperial Navy will cover a greater number of space
weapons.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:30:32 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re:

In a message dated 3/11/99 9:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jcarlino@home.com
writes:

<< 
 All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
 Not All Who Wander Are Lost
  >>

	Sharks' gotta swim
	bats' gotta fly

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:49:35 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/11/99 9:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jcarlino@home.com
> writes:
> 
> <<
>  All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>  Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>   >>
> 
>         Sharks' gotta swim
>         bats' gotta fly


"But they don't last long, if they try.
"Pollution, pollution, you can use the latest toothpaste,
"Then rinse your mouth with industrial waste."

[couldn't resist the Tom Lehrer reference....]

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:43:03 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Book Recommendations

It warms my heart to see the recent interest in world building and
detailing beyond the realm of "C-856243-A", "forest moon", "jungle planet",
and such not. I would like to recommend to the general population of the
list two volumes of "The New Encyclopedia of Science".

_Ecology and Environment: the Cycles of Life_
  Sally Morgan
  ISBN 0-19-521140-5

_Earth and Other Planets: Geology and Space Research_
  Peter Cattermole
  ISBN 0-19-521138-3

Both volumes are clear in the fundamentals and include interesting details.
They should provide non-specialists with lots of inspiration and assistance
in colouring the worlds of their gaming universes. Since they have lots of
pictures, they might be in the children's section of your local library.

Before the specialists jump on me, i know there are consequent errors of
simplifictation (such as the use of 'mammals' where it should read
'animals') and a slightly disturbing politically correct slant with all
theories granted equal weight. (Of course, pseudo-science is not included.)

Unfortunately, they have not yet done a volume on weather. I'm combing my
personal library for a similarly accessible volume on that subject.


Would anyone be interested in detailed worlds not specifically for Traveller?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #273
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 274



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Deckplans - 3D, VRML
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #260
Re: 
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Downport.com
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
E21 or Absorbing 2300AD
Re: Canonicity
Re: Pak Protectors
RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Passports and Paperwork
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: the nastiest monster
Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?
Re: Passports and Paperwork
Re: Starport Modular Components
Re: Deep Space 1 (Was: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Adva nces))
Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=
Re: Pak Protectors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:17:20 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Travellers,

I've started working on some Traveller ship deckplans in VRML.

It's a rough start but I have half of a type S Scout done out
as a frame.  More is coming:  fittings, control panels, better
lighting, hatches, etc..

Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.

The URL:   http://www.3rd-imperium.com
Select: Imperial Ship Yards.

Later,
Kristian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:15:32 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #260

I also ordered these, and I sent an email to Paul Sanders about a week ago,
but I am yet to receive a reply. Last I heard was that one of the Keith
Brothers had the covers and was in the process of signing them. He did not
want to keep contacting the guy as to keep on his back about signing the
hundred or so copies (x 8-10) as it might really peeve him.
If you hear anything, please let me know.


Date:	Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:32:28 -0600
From:	"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject:	"Lost" Keith Brothers supplements - Status?

Has anyone heard a status on the "lost"
Keith Brothers' Traveller supplements
which was supposed to have been published
awhile back?

It's now March and I haven't received
a thing for my $100. Regardless of the
desirability for quality, I am now
becoming rather irritated.

Has anyone received these items
from Paul Sanders?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:21:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: 

Conjunction Junction, what's your function?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 10:01 PM
Subject: Re:


>AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 3/11/99 9:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jcarlino@home.com
>> writes:
>>
>> <<
>>  All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>  Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>>   >>
>>
>>         Sharks' gotta swim
>>         bats' gotta fly
>
>
>"But they don't last long, if they try.
>"Pollution, pollution, you can use the latest toothpaste,
>"Then rinse your mouth with industrial waste."
>
>[couldn't resist the Tom Lehrer reference....]
>
>--
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:24:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Now you're talking!  : )

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 11:21 PM
Subject: Deckplans - 3D, VRML


>Travellers,
>
>I've started working on some Traveller ship deckplans in VRML.
>
>It's a rough start but I have half of a type S Scout done out
>as a frame.  More is coming:  fittings, control panels, better
>lighting, hatches, etc..
>
>Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.
>
>The URL:   http://www.3rd-imperium.com
>Select: Imperial Ship Yards.
>
>Later,
>Kristian
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:36:54 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Downport.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: General call for opinion and discussion (long-ish)


|Will you host links to other Traveller sites?
==


This is a labor of love in which we hope many Traveller gamers will
participate.  We don't want to have "just another links page", we want to
have the linked site give us a whole page of info about what their site has
to offer.  If you have just a few pages on a site with lots of other stuff,
maybe publishing that stuff (if it has wide appeal) on Downport.com would
give it better exposure.  We want to serve the desires of the gamers.  Much
like a spaceport serves as a gateway to the stars and central receiving for
the world it is built on, Downport.com wants to help organize web traffic
for Traveller.  We can dock and warehouse content, route travelers, post
schedules and offer street frontage for the starport offices, Scout Depot,
Waystation, merchant lines and taverns.

The ideas sound ambitious, and perhaps they are.  But we don't mind being
accused of a having ambition.  This is not a commercial site, however.  It's
a fan site.  It costs money to set it up and maintain it, but any hobby does
that.  Big space users will be asked to help out with that expense,
naturally.  Most will not.  We'd like to attract a sponsor at some point,
but that won't be soon.  To be honest, we don't know how big or popular the
site is going to get.  We're flexible.  It is already eating up a lot of
time, but it's enjoyable time.  For now we want to hear the voice of the
gamers and stay as flexible as possible.  We want to build content and
traffic.  We want to be useful and interesting.  We believe that there is a
big enough fan base to support a project like this.  Even though there is no
company out there to back a fan site right now, we still believe that
Traveller deserves one.

Colin Michael
CT Editor
www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:58:25 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.


Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens on a
Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:19:02 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: E21 or Absorbing 2300AD

- --------------A1F2185A125FA381CA1E95A1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For those of you who have just discovered 2300AD or Traveller:2300AD. I
admire your spirit! But don't reinvent the wheel...Just mosey on down to
the 2300AD Mailing List at 2300AD@onelist.com and subscribe. In
addition, there is the 2300AD Web Ring and at least 25 2300AD websites
on the 'net. Just set your favorite search engine at +"2300AD" and
you'll get about 400-500 results. Over here at the 2300AD ML, many of
our members have planned the similar campaigns the E21 and others based
in the Imperium era. There's an amazing amount of information available
to you and we'd be glad to help. At this current time, we are begining
to start up the Great Game II, extending the universe of 2300AD into the
24th and 25th Century. (Great Game I is the GDW house game, available on
the Great Game II website, that was used to create the future history of
the 2300AD universe from the Twilight War (Twilight:2000) to the Kafer
War of the very early 2300's.) Interesting times ahead! Who knows? Maybe
the Vilani are waiting for us just beyond the Kafer Sphere!
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

MUSASHI
Traveller since '77
2300AD since '87
Star Frontiers ....um..maybe once...a hem..okay for about six months in
1984, I have since repented!!! No relativistic rocks!! Engaging
Planetary Defense Shield

- --------------A1F2185A125FA381CA1E95A1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
For those of you who have just discovered 2300AD or Traveller:2300AD. I
admire your spirit! But don't reinvent the wheel...Just mosey on down to
the 2300AD Mailing List at 2300AD@onelist.com and subscribe. In addition,
there is the 2300AD Web Ring and at least 25 2300AD websites on the 'net.
Just set your favorite search engine at +"2300AD" and you'll get about
400-500 results. Over here at the 2300AD ML, many of our members have planned
the similar campaigns the E21 and others based in the Imperium era. There's
an amazing amount of information available to you and we'd be glad to help.
At this current time, we are begining to start up the Great Game II, extending
the universe of 2300AD into the 24th and 25th Century. (Great Game I is
the GDW house game, available on the Great Game II website, that was used
to create the future history of the 2300AD universe from the Twilight War
(Twilight:2000) to the Kafer War of the very early 2300's.) Interesting
times ahead! Who knows? Maybe the Vilani are waiting for us just beyond
the Kafer Sphere!
<hr SIZE=7 WIDTH="100%">
<p>MUSASHI
<br>Traveller since '77
<br>2300AD since '87
<br>Star Frontiers ....um..maybe once...a hem..okay for about six months
in 1984, I have since repented!!! No relativistic rocks!! Engaging Planetary
Defense Shield</html>

- --------------A1F2185A125FA381CA1E95A1--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 00:24:04 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

On 03/11/99 at 06:32 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

>>For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
>are

>	Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
>in? And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?

Dave, you're one of the "Four Horsemen", so you don't need classification. As for me...I'm just...

Eris,
    the Heretic ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 00:27:57 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

On 03/11/99 at 06:30 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:
>>Well, actually, Pak protectors don't have penises.  Not even the
>>ones that used to be male.

>	IIRC, their genitals become a second heart ...

For former male breeders, it should be a second *brain*, Dave.  Why,
aren't our women are always telling us we think with our genitals
already?  This would explain A LOT!  ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:49:20 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: RE: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote

> Douglas E. Berry 
> > "What, you make your players dress up in black leather 
> > costumes and paint their faces white?
> > "I.. want to play Traveller allll niighht.. and party every day!"

> Words fail me :)

I believe the words you are looking for are "How may I join the
campaign/band?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:04:24 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

>From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>Subject: [none]
>
>In GT combat can be very submarine like. A ship that want's to remain hidden
>can shut down its active sensors and transponder.  As long as it only uses
>PESA a very skillful operator using really good AESA will be necessary to
>find it at anything but relatively short ranges.  A ship might be passed
>undetected until it fires its weapons.  Then, just like a submarine, its
>location is compromised.

Use sub-craft who go active. G:T has things ass-backwards anyway - passive
sensors have much better range than active (a classic example is the Mk 1
Eyeball can see Venus, while you need a powerful radar to pick it up).

> I would expect that this would be a typical tactic for both pirates and
>SDB's.  GT doesn't cover the use of drones or dumb bombs or mines.

Mines are basically impossible at Traveller ranges - space is too big.

GT does sort of cover drones, with gunnery programs and so on. I guess you
could build a fairly dumb uncrewed starship.

>Hopefully GURPS Traveller:Imperial Navy will cover a greater number of space
>weapons.

And hopefully fix my pet peeve, which is the inefficiency of Meson Screens
as written.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:28:21 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork

The closest reference to papers etc I can recall - other than a little bit
of sidebar 'atmosphere' in G:T (pp36,37) - is from 'The Flaming Eye' where
the PC's arrive in a Vilani system and need to have a Transponder that is
broadcasting a signal the Vilani can 'identify'.

Now, whether this means that neighbouring states regularly send updated
lists of new Transponder codes to each other (pop down your nearest large
bookshop - you may well find a book in the aviation section that lists
owners for Civilian-registered aircraft), or if they send each new id when
the Transponder is first fitted to a new ship is best left to 'you' to
decide.
IMTU, I use the 'batch update' method.

Of course, this does not apply to Military vessels - although it would be
easy for, say, the 3I to tell Zhodant that ship registration XYZ is a
1000-ton trader when it is actually a 1000-ton Intelligence gatherer...

"Avast Behind!"

Jeff R.

- -----Original Message-----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 11 March 1999 09:56 PM
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork


>> For those of us starting our own TU:  What types of documentation are
>> Traders required to carry _within_ the Imperium?  When crossing the
borders
>> of the Imperium?  How much influence does the world government have?
When
>> would the Imperium sieze a vessel, and why?
>
>I don't think there's anything in the 3I, aside from references to
regulations
>requiring annual maintenance and certification, etc.  The Solomani
>Confederation requires various licences to certain worlds, which
deliberately
>encourages traffic to and from worlds with significant party support.  The
3I
>is supposed to be all bout free trade, or at least that's been my take on
it.
>Memberworlds have to recognize Imperial territory: the starport and the
space
>"between the stars."  Some worlds probably don't extend influence beyond
>what's covered by their COACC.  Others control portions of their own system
>with their own forces.  As long as trade isn't hampered and Imperial
hegemony
>challenged, they can pretty much do what they want, which could include
>extradition of PCs.  :-)
>
>As far as crossing the Imperiums borders?  Hmm...  I don't know of anything
>specifically referencing this (or I don't recall), but this brings to mind
the
>Interface & Terminus worlds of the Regency.  I imagine a scaled down
version
>of these (along w/ something similar to the Regency Frontier) would be in
>place near the larger polities (Solomani Confederation, especially).
>
>I don't think the Imperium is in the habit of seizing vessels as long as
they
>don't break rules on slavery, nuclear weapons, etc, which would probably
going
>to get them destroyed along w/ their owners, assuming they don't surrender.
>
>
>Gary
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:36:27 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

Dave wrote...
<<SNIP>>
>>...I tend to follow the KISS principal,[Nb.from original post]
>
>What, you make your players dress up in black leather costumes and paint
>their faces white?
>
>"I.. want to play Traveller allll niighht.. and party every day!"
>--
<<UNSNIP>>
Does this not go back to the other thread about the college kids?  I mean,
who *are* KISS?  (Or should that be 'what'?? ;)

Jeff R. (who's too young to remember KISS - NOT!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:26:50 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: the nastiest monster

> ...Pak...

And in Nivens known space, Pak only used STL ships, and so were a minor
race.

Go on, look them in the beak and say it :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 03:17:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone use weather in their campaigns?

At 08:36 AM 3/12/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Does this not go back to the other thread about the college kids?  I mean,
>who *are* KISS?  (Or should that be 'what'?? ;)

Oddly enough, KISS played on the field just before the last Super Bowl.
Don't ask me, I didn't understand it either...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:22:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork

In mail you write:

> The crew of a Pakistani freighter spent 12 months in exile aboard their own
> vessel.  Upon arriving in Mexico, the crew was informed that the company
> owning the ship had gone bankrupt.  In the ensuing financial squabble, the
> Mexican government seized the vessel's documents and the crew's passports.
> The ship languished in port for six months, with the crew trapped aboard,
> before making a daring night escape to the the United States.  Without
> passports, the crew was not allowed to come ashore.  The crew lived in
> squalid conditions. They had no air conditioning, relied on charity and
> caught fish to eat, and had almost no contact with friends or family.
> Finally, the ship was sold for scrap and the crew has been given 30 days to
> make travel arrangements to get home.

Unless there are factors you didn't mention, the above is mostly a case
of the Pakistani consul in Mexico (and later in the US) *not* doing his
job. So it's mostly a case of the perils of being from a small,
unimportant country.

If they'd been from a more important country, or had a better
consul/ambassador, they'd have been helped with duplicate documents
*and* tickets home.

The fun thing is being outside your country and not being able to
convince your ambassador that you are a citizen... Imperial citizens
going to backwater places in the Solomani Confederation had best beware
if they don't have a ship, and get their ID stolen.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:29:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starport Modular Components

In mail you write:

>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:35:59 -0600
>>From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
>>Subject: General Products Retail Line: Starport Modular Components
>>
>>General Products Retail Catalog
>>issue 1107-200
>>Starport Modular Components
>>
>>Component                          Price (MCr)
>>Module O: Parking Orbit Transponders
>>O-0 custom orbit transponder        -
>>O-1 standard telemeter transponder  5
>>O-2 programmable transponder        10
>>
>
> These still don't make any sense from a celestial mechanics point of view.
> To be of any use, you'd have to measure and calculate its orbit somehow --
> you can't just fly to it, like a ground-based navaid. Assuming that its
> orbital elements are given as part of its transponder code, you'd still
> have to measure your own orbit in 3D by the same system -- with only two
> data points, the satellite and the planet. Unless you physically dock with
> the thing, you're not in the same orbit and you will spend a fair amount of
> time and effort keeping station with it. Docking with a transponder
> satellite will disturb its orbit, which pretty much defeats the purpose as
> well.

I think you mistake the purpose. The key is the phrase "parking orbit".
Think of them as being like the deep water mooring bouys at some
shallow water ports. The ship is assigned a parking spot, which is
marked by the transponder. It matches orbit with it and is then parked.

And btw, contrary to what you state above, you can be in the same orbit
as something *without* being physically docked to it. Easiest is to
assume a position slightly ahead or behind it (in terms of its orbit).
once you match velocities you will *stay* at that seperation.

If you try for "along side" you'll be in an orbit with a different
inclination, which will cross the transponder's orbit twice each orbit.
At which points you'll collide with it. Oops. 

But "leading" and "trailing" by any amount are perfectly possible. For
this sort of thing, I assume it'd be by a 100 meters or so.

> Better to invest in a constellation of GPS satellites in LPO that allow you
> to precisely measure and adjust your own orbit. For this, you'd probably
> need at least 6, and 36 would be better. They could each consist simply of
> a standard transponder and power supply -- say, Cr20,000-30,000 apiece, not
> including on-orbit launch costs -- but you'd have to replace them every two
> years or so as their orbits decay. This could then also form part of your
> approach and landing system, and incidently provide a valuable service
> on-planet. More expensive versions could provide additional services:
> communications relay, packet switching networks, etc.

GPS satelites are in orbits high enough that they don't appreciably
decay over their expected service life. And to work, they need atomic
clocks onboard.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:06:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space 1 (Was: New Spaceport Completed (& Other Tech Adva nces))

In mail you write:

> Frank Pitt wrote:
>>
>>> Again, lots of research and testing is still necessary for all
>>> these advancements but they're pretty wild nonetheless and even
>>> more so because they're *real*!

>> Another is that French car that runs on compressed air which is
>> being produced for the Mexican Taxi industry and anyone else who
>> will buy it ( I think it was posted on here, perhaps by you ? )

> The compressed air vehicle and and the fact that Microsoft now has a
> deal with China for some cheap Internet boxes makes me wonder why
> such technology isn't being offered in the U.S. Makes me go "Hmmm".

Hell, just dig up figures on the mpg and performance of the old Stanley
Steamer from back in the late 30s. And check out some sources that
explain the truth behind the scare stories. 

Oddly, one of the factors that may have helped kill the Steamer was the
fact that after a bad accident in the early days, the Stanley brothers
*refused* to participate in auto racing, much less build any sort of
racer. And I believe someone managed to get steam cars banned from the
racing circuit much like the way they used the failure of some
non-engine related component to ban turbines from the Indy 500 in the
late 60s. 

External combustion *is* practical. And doesn't have near the pollution
problems. But other than overly exotic cars in "alternative technology"
races, nobody is really following up on it. 

One of the early races for alternative tech cars had an actual Stanley
Steamer entered in it. While the other cars were driving all night and
the like, the folks in the Steamer were able to check into a motel, get
a good night's sleep, and *still* be in the lead... :-)

> Just a thought for you conspiracy-theory fans. Regardless, they're an
> excellent way for other countries to leapfrog the U.S. because of the
> potential economic efficiencies.

Heck, when you get right down to it, it *is* a conspiracy of sorts. The
auto companies are fighting tooth and nail to avoid having a situation
where their experience is worthless and they have to do massive
re-tooling. Good grief! In that sort of situation some unknown company
might take over the market!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:17:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=

In mail you write:

> On the questions of other races, the PAK would  see them as a threat to
> their clans.
> They would  have to be exterminated for the safety of their breeder clan.
>
> Especially the  K'kree.

The K'kree are only a threat to the extent that the clan is
meat-eating. That far back, our ancestors were pretty much herbiverous.
And Pak Protectors eat *only* Tree-of-Life root. So they won't trip the
"meat-eater" reactions. 

It'll be interesting watching the Hivers come up with a manipulation. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:25:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

In mail you write:

>         This is interesting.  I happen to be re-reading 'Protector' at the
> moment.  If the protectors bumped into the 3I, I think there would be
> wonderful potential for mayhem.  First of all, they would exterminate all
> non-human races as a matter of course, Phssthpok says as much near the
> beginning of the book.  Protectors eliminate other sophonts "just to be
> sure".  As for the humans of the 3I and the Zhos, I'm not sure.  They
> would "smell funny" to the Pak, so would probably not qualify for
> protection.  By default they would qualify for extermination. 
>
>         Now the interesting debate starts:  Who would win?  The 3I and the
> Zhos start off with a huge advantage in numbers, industrial capacity, and
> technology, but the Pak are ultimately resourceful.  As someone else said,
> they could make a fusion plant out of a vaccuum cleaner and a pile of
> dirty socks.  They would rapidly co-opt technology and expand their
> numbers with cloning and the like.  They wouldn't hesitate to use
> bio-warfare (they use it on each other, after all) or planetary
> sterilization by nuke.  It would basically be a matter of the 3I scoring a
> quick and decisive victory or the Pak destroying everything at an
> inexorable and rapidly accelerating pace. 
>
>         I have a feeling the Solomani might come out ahead in all this. 
> After all, in some sense they _are_ the Pak and the extermination of all
> other sophonts would leave the way clear for them to "fulfill their
> galactic destiny" and all that rot. But wait, you say!  Wouldn't they get
> exterminated too?  Maybe not.  The Solomani would have some time to get
> ready, and are masters of genetic engineering.  What I would do if I were
> them is I would make sure I "smelled right".  I would therefore qualify
> for protection as a breeder and then things get funky... (excuse the
> pun :-). 

Sooner or later a crew the right age will be able to capture a Pak ship
intact. Capturing the pilot alive is a bonus, but not needed. 

Now you've got Solomani/Vilani/Zhodani/Whatever Protectors. And the
whole equation changes. Once humaniti has tree-of-life, the Pak are
doomed unless the human Protectors have a reason to keep them alive.

For a special nightmare have the capture involve a ship crewed by
members of Famile Spofulam. Given their attitudes, I can easily see
them deciding to let whatever is going on with the affected crew
members run its course. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:53:18 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

"Joseph R. Dietrich" wrote:

> >Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.
>
> Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens on a
> Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...

Halflife has a much better Traveller look and feel.  I just got it
and while Quake is the mother of al 3D shooters, Halflife blows me away.

No offense to the Fenris Wolf people, I've never seen their
products.  But I dearly wish that Marc had licensed Traveller to one
of the major players making these great looking and great playing
computer games.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #274
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 275



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Passports and Paperwork
Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)
re: Fighter Screens
re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: pakage expresss
TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re:turbines at Indy
Weather tables
Re: Passports and Paperwork
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)
Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:08:25 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork

On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
>The fun thing is being outside your country and not being able to
>convince your ambassador that you are a citizen... Imperial citizens
>going to backwater places in the Solomani Confederation had best beware
>if they don't have a ship, and get their ID stolen.

Or like we had a case here in Norway, were the country in question confirmed
that the persons were citizens of said country, but the Norwegian police
refused to beleave this and launched their own invetigations.

>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:36:17 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)

>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:29:38 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Starport Modular Components
>
>I think you mistake the purpose. The key is the phrase "parking orbit".
>Think of them as being like the deep water mooring bouys at some
>shallow water ports. The ship is assigned a parking spot, which is
>marked by the transponder. It matches orbit with it and is then parked.
>

No mistake at all -- that is precisely the model to which I object:

(1) Again, this is not 2D surface navigation: you cannot simply "fly to" a
satellite and park behind it. If you have to calculate your orbit anyway,
what it the value of the satellite?

(2) The ship herself already has a transponder, and thus acts as her own
hazard marker.

(3) Orbits are not static: you can't simply put them on a "chart" and
expect them to remain fixed. In fact, it is mathematically impossible to
arrive at a deterministic solution to an orbital mechanics problem
involving three or more bodies (planet, ship, and star). Rather than have
to adjust the orbits of two objects (satellite and ship), why not simply
worry about the ship?

(4) How many of these things should one expect to see in orbit? Hundreds?
At what point do they become a hazard to navigation all out of proportion
to their usefulness? Plan a large enough margin of error (10 km? 100 km?)
between on-orbit parking assignments and there is no need for the
additional clutter.

>And btw, contrary to what you state above, you can be in the same orbit
>as something *without* being physically docked to it. Easiest is to
>assume a position slightly ahead or behind it (in terms of its orbit).
>once you match velocities you will *stay* at that seperation.
>

You do not "stay" at that separation over any appreciable length of time,
unless you expend time and effort on station-keeping (as I said, in so many
words). Orbits are never perfect in the real world -- perturbations from
irregularities in the planet's gravitational field and from other celestial
objects act differently on the satellite and the ship, accumulate, and
cause the separation (and the orbit, for that matter) to change. This is
especially true of very low or resonant orbits (planetary synchronous, etc.).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:10:20 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  ISTR your referring to ops "across significant portions of a system",
and that ships would have their encounters on an effectively uncontrolled
and semi-random basis - i.e., that squadron (/fleet) coherence would be
either impossible or undesirable. Is this apprehension mistaken?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The encounters would only be uncontrolled and semi-random if the
fleets involved are poorly led - the equivalent, in Imperium, of just 
tossing your ship counters into the match-up line without looking
at them first. Of course, to the fleet with no intelligence or picket
assets, the encounters may *look* random - they'll just tend to be
"random" in favor of the opposition. <G>

Which fleet is more coherent - the one that develops the enemy position
by picket ship obervation and contact and maneuvers battle assets to
local firepower superiority, or the one that piles into the enemy fleet
like an avalanche?

I'm looking for limited intelligence on both sides, with the ability to
improve that intelligence by sending light units into harm's way. If you
don't have light units (or have used them up), your battleships get to
play scout. Maybe they get a shot at a nice juicy cruiser for you, maybe 
they find a dreadnaught. I'm thinking that a variation on Imperium's one-for-
one matching would emulate the results of this, even if the "real" chain of
events were not precisely the same. Abstraction to the result rather than
precise simulation to the result.

Right now I have to look at Bruce's MCS. He mentioned multiple range
bands and squadron groupings, I'd like to see what his ideas are. I think
I want something simpler, though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:13:48 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

Dave Nelson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
	In the past I've used a system like this:

	Each ship can TARGET one detected enemy ship.

<snip>
	Fighters in this system have a decent chance of attacking the support ships
of an enemy fleet, requiring Escort vessels to protect them. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This sounds like a very interesting mechanic. The "Escort Targetting"
might combine very well with my Area Point Defense and Escort variant
rules from earlier.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:56:31 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: pakage expresss

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:12:39 -0700 Samir <samir@chisp.net> writes:
>  Brings to mind a new
>>campaign
>>
>>Traveller:  The Pak Wars
>
>I thought all protectors were male? Shouldn't that be
>
>Traveller:   The Pak Man Wars
> Whats worse then a kraken?
>
>
>A pregnant Kraken!
==========================

Heheheh.  Actually, when Pak undergo the alteration to Protector, they
lose all genitalia, become in effect Neuter.

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:18:41 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)

Joseph R. Deitrich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.


Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens on a
Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quit it - you're making me salivate on my keyboard. <g>

NetQuake, a dozen people or so playing "Great Wine Heist" on a
1st-person shooter computer game all over an AHL...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:27:56 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>Halflife has a much better Traveller look and feel.  I just got it
>and while Quake is the mother of al 3D shooters, Halflife blows me away.
>
>No offense to the Fenris Wolf people, I've never seen their
>products.  But I dearly wish that Marc had licensed Traveller to one
>of the major players making these great looking and great playing
>computer games.

HalfLife is QuakeII with other textures, levels, char anims and most of all
AI. They licensed the QuakeII engine from ID for doing Half Life. I don't
think the Half Life guys are allowed to license their engine as it derives
from the QuakeII one in the first place. (the same goes with the awful SIN
game as well).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:33:06 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>> Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.

Nifty stuff.  Throwing some textures on the walls would be good.
Which tools do you use (if any)?

> Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens
> on a Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...

Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2 levels.
And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump in with a minimum
of hassle.

| Halflife has a much better Traveller look and feel.  I just got it
| and while Quake is the mother of al 3D shooters, Halflife blows me
| away.
|
| No offense to the Fenris Wolf people, I've never seen their
| products.  But I dearly wish that Marc had licensed Traveller to
| one of the major players making these great looking and great
| playing computer games.

Ha!  You can always do it yourself.  :-)  The source code for
Shogo:MAD is freely available.  Great engine, excellent price...

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:36:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re:turbines at Indy

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>And I believe someone managed to get steam cars banned from the
> racing circuit much like the way they used the failure of some
> non-engine related component to ban turbines from the Indy 500 in the
> late 60s.

Nope, what killed turbines was the  air intake and (iirc) fuel tank size
restrictions slapped on them after Parnelli Jones' heartbreaking loss in '69.
(for those of you who are not racing fans, Jones had a turbine that ran like a
charm, and he was waaaay in the lead, when, on one of the last laps he ran out
of fuel. 1st place to DNF in a second.) This downpowered turbines so much it
made them uncompetitive with IC engines.

The turbine was just too powerful compared to the (then) IC engine technology
used by the major sponsors of the races. There's also the problem that
turbines are very difficult to translate into consumer vehicles, whereas the
developments done in racing can be used in advertising the car manufacturers
current lines. 

In fact, I think Honda still actually uses their F1 program as a testbed for
technologies that eventually make it into their 'street' cars. Of course so
does Ferrari, but that's a much shorter route from track to street (at a much
higher speed ;-)

Of course, there was also a move to ban rear engines after Jim Clark won in
'65 or so, but that didn't get very far. That's a race to catch footage
of...all these huge old front-engined Offy's rumbling around the track getting
whipped by that sleek little Lotus.

I used to have detailed models of both of those cars...wish I knew where they
all went.

Another technology I wish I knew what happened to was the Wankel...I know
Mazda had huge problems with their first generation, but they cleared the bugs
out, because IIRC the RX-7 still uses it. (I saw a hot-rod project a while
back...dropping a RX-7 engine into a Miata. Sort of like that old Sunbeam
Tiger with the 289 Ford V8...a serious pocket rocket)

Of course, there have been astonishing advances in the efficiency and design
of IC engines in the last 30 years, too, from aluminum blocks to superchargers
that _don't_ burn an engine out after a few tens of hours of running. We get
more horses out of four cyclinders now than we used to out of most V-8's.

(ain't nothing like moving from Tl-6 to Tl-7 ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:39:33 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Weather tables

As requested, here are my low-maintainance weather tables. 
This is all that I specify until some PCs are getting near
(or I have the leasure time to flesh it out). I usually
assume that hotter worlds generally have more wind, and
hotter and wetter worlds have more rain. Of course, where
it suits me I ignore all this and make the world the way 
I like it (and the PCs often don't).


Weather

2D	average daytime high temperature at equator
2	-30 C (-22 F)
3	-10 C (+14 F)
4	 +5 C (+41 F)
5	+15 C (+59 F)
6	+20 C (+68 F)
7	+25 C (+77 F)
8	+30 C (+86 F)
9	+35 C (+95 F)
10	+40 C (+104 F)
11	+45 C (+113 F)
12	+50 C (+122 F)

Simply roll 2D for the planet. I wanted to get a range that 
included interesting conditions but would not render planets 
uninhabitable, with a nice comfortable mean.


reduction by atmosphere and hydrographic
UPP	nighttime			at poles
0	-30 C (-54 F)			-55 C (-99 F)
1	-23 C (-41 F)			-50 C (-90 F)
2	-17 C (-31 F)			-45 C (-81 F)
3	-12 C (-22 F)			-40 C (-72 F)
4	-8 C (-14 C)			-35 C (-63 F)
5	-5 C (-9 F)			-30 C (-54 F)
6	-3 C (-5 F)			-25 C (-45 F)
7	-2 C (-4 F)			-20 C (-36 F)
8	-1 C (-2 F)			-15 C (-27 F)
9	-1 C (-2 F)			-10 C (-18 F)
A	-0 C (-0 F)			-5 C (-9 F)
B	-0 C (-0 F)			-0 C (-0 F)
C	-0 C (-0 F)			-0 C (-0 F)

The rate of cooling after star-set depends on atmospheric 
density and hydrographic percentage. Add the temperature 
modifier for each to the temperature rolled above. (e.g. 
for Regina (atm = 8, hyd = 8) I rolled 8 on 2D: average 
daytime temperature at the equator is 30 C, at night this 
drops to 28 C (-1 for atm, -1 for hyd), at the poles the 
average daytime temperature is 0 C (-15 for atm, -15 for 
hyd) dropping to -2 C at night (you get the idea). Thus, 
though Regina does get cool near the poles it does not 
have ice caps. Rather constant temperature, moist, a
pleasant world if you don't mind the rain.

Comments are welcome.

I have thought about seasonal changes, but this can be
complex and requires keeping track of seasonal changes
at different latitudes on various worlds with different 
'year' lengths. If anyone has KISS type season rules,
let me know.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:45:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Passports and Paperwork

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Unless there are factors you didn't mention, the above is mostly a case
> of the Pakistani consul in Mexico (and later in the US) *not* doing his
> job. So it's mostly a case of the perils of being from a small,
> unimportant country.
> 
> If they'd been from a more important country, or had a better
> consul/ambassador, they'd have been helped with duplicate documents
> *and* tickets home.

Ooohh, NOW I remember that case...I don't think the ship was Pakistani, but
someplace in the baltics, like Albania. Their government didn't _have_ a
consul/ambassador, couldn't afford to buy tickets for the crew. 

Besides, the crew _didn't_ want to leave, because then they wouldn't get paid
for the something like six months (and growing) back pay they were owed.  It
was a freighter full of sugar, btw, and the crew ended up trading off sugar
for other supplies with the Mexicans in the port they were in, as well as
fishing. The bulk of the cargo was also cauight up in some complicated,
stalled deal, as well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:48:55 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

Ian or Katts wrote:

>Use sub-craft who go active. G:T has things ass-backwards
>anyway - passive sensors have much better range
>than active (a classic example is the Mk 1
>Eyeball can see Venus, while you need a powerful radar to pick it up).

G:T uses sensors in 2 ways (at least IMTU).  First there is detection. Then
there is targeting. PESA can detect another ship at longer ranges, but
generally sucks on targeting except at shorter ranges.  AESA can target at
longer ranges.
That's fairly consistent with RL.

I.T.C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:01:34 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2 levels.
>And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump in with a minimum
>of hassle.

Hmm. You woldn't happen to know where I could find this, do you? I'm trying
to immerse myself in 3d computer art anyway ...

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:34:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

In various homebrew combats systems I have worked on I did the
following:

1. allow fighters to make "close attacks." In my (vecor movement)
systems this required that the fighters intercept a target as if
they were missiles closing to near imapct range (making them easy
targets for their target).

2. Anti-missile (or anti-anything that tries to pysically intercept
you) is easy--but only for the actual target of the attack. Other
ships have crossing targets and don't get any AM attack bonuses.

3. Ships can be designated as "screening." In this case they must be
in the same task force (using old BR terms)--that is the same hex
moving along with the ship that they screen. In this case all ships
grouped like this can group attacks vs. missiles, and get any
bounuses since they all see more or less the same target picture.

This ends up as a rationale for stacking units. The rationale for
splitting them is maneuver I guess.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:50:00 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)

>(3) Orbits are not static: you can't simply put them on a "chart" and
>expect them to remain fixed. In fact, it is mathematically impossible to
>arrive at a deterministic solution to an orbital mechanics problem
>involving three or more bodies (planet, ship, and star). Rather than have
>to adjust the orbits of two objects (satellite and ship), why not simply
>worry about the ship?

It is not mathematically impossible, it has simply(?) not yet been done
mathematically (if we consider numerical solutions no- mathematical).
Also, a three body problem (planet, ship, and star) where the range to the
star is MUCH longer than the orbit in question is basically a two body
problem which is easily calculateable. Orbital mechanics is simple stuff
today and will be MUCCH simpler in the future.

In traveller I guess that most systemdata files contain 3D density plots of
all major bodies so that orbits can be simulated even when the bodies do
not behave like pointmasses (the moon for instance has lots of high density
points on the surface which make orbvits irregular requiring lots of
corrections).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:51:04 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)

>Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens on a
>Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Quit it - you're making me salivate on my keyboard. <g>
>
>NetQuake, a dozen people or so playing "Great Wine Heist" on a
>1st-person shooter computer game all over an AHL...
>
>Walt Smith

There is already a nice Subsidized merchant full of aliens for the Marathon
3D shoot-em-up.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:54:41 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

>G:T uses sensors in 2 ways (at least IMTU).  First there is detection. Then
>there is targeting. PESA can detect another ship at longer ranges, but
>generally sucks on targeting except at shorter ranges.  AESA can target at
>longer ranges.
>That's fairly consistent with RL.
>
>I.T.C.
>
>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>Not All Who Wander Are Lost

This is true at short ranges but not at long. Active sensors need 16x
antenna area or 16x power output to double the range. Passives need only 4x
antenna area to double the range. GURPS sensor rules have all kinds of
sensors going more or less linearly with range. This is RealLife(tm).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:35:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Half-Life does, however, come with Worldcraft 2.0 on the cd.  This is
supposed to be a very nice level creater / editor in it's own right.  If you
buy the game, install Worldcraft and then go to

http://halflife.gamedesign.net/

and download the newbie guides and other tutorials.  I've not done anything
myself at this point, but when "First In" is done and there's a lull between
books, I plan on starting the learning process for this stuff (creating
Half-Life levels) with the eventual goal of have navigatable deck plans ala
VRML, but at a much quicker and more natural pace.  'Course, you do have to
go through the hassle of installing the level first, but oh well.  It'll
have to do 'til the event of fully immersive, photorealistic, interactive,
real time VR.

Later,
Jesse

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML


>>Halflife has a much better Traveller look and feel.  I just got it
>>and while Quake is the mother of al 3D shooters, Halflife blows me away.
>>
>>No offense to the Fenris Wolf people, I've never seen their
>>products.  But I dearly wish that Marc had licensed Traveller to one
>>of the major players making these great looking and great playing
>>computer games.
>
>HalfLife is QuakeII with other textures, levels, char anims and most of all
>AI. They licensed the QuakeII engine from ID for doing Half Life. I don't
>think the Half Life guys are allowed to license their engine as it derives
>from the QuakeII one in the first place. (the same goes with the awful SIN
>game as well).
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:11:57 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

"Todd A. Zircher" wrote:
> 
> >> Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.
> 
> Nifty stuff.  Throwing some textures on the walls would be good.
> Which tools do you use (if any)?
> 
That's a good idea.  I always pictured Traveller starship walls as
flat and smooth but I will add some raised control panels and things
like that.  Good idea!

The next thing I'd like to do is add some bridge viewers that loop
a short space combat movie from Star Wars or Star Trek.  Does anyone
know of a good source for those?

Kristian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:04:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

Anders Backman writes:
> This is true at short ranges but not at long. Active sensors need 16x
> antenna area or 16x power output to double the range. Passives need only 4x
> antenna area to double the range. GURPS sensor rules have all kinds of
> sensors going more or less linearly with range. This is RealLife(tm).

Well, active sensors need 4x antenna area and 4x power, passives need 4x area.
These actually scale pretty similarly.  The problem with astronomy is detection
range for large objects is order 1/2 in area for passive sensors (assuming
constant illumination), order 1/4 in area for active sensors.  GT sensor rules
have a lot of problems (with GURPS Vehicles rules, Venus is invisible to the
naked eye).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:25:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Jesse said:

>Half-Life does, however, come with Worldcraft 2.0 on the cd.  This is
>supposed to be a very nice level creater / editor in it's own right.  If
you
>buy the game, install Worldcraft and then go to
>
>http://halflife.gamedesign.net/
>
>and download the newbie guides and other tutorials.  I've not done anything
>myself at this point, but when "First In" is done and there's a lull
between
>books, I plan on starting the learning process for this stuff (creating
>Half-Life levels) with the eventual goal of have navigatable deck plans ala
>VRML, but at a much quicker and more natural pace.  'Course, you do have to
>go through the hassle of installing the level first, but oh well.  It'll
>have to do 'til the event of fully immersive, photorealistic, interactive,
>real time VR.


If you happen to have Quake 2 and wish to use an editor for this kind of
stuff, I'd advise Qoole, especially if you're a beginner. It has an
intuitive interface and is plenty easy to do.

If you're more than slightly interested in this stuff hit the Rust game
design site at:

http://www.gamedesign.net

They take the stuff seriously and have a ton of good tutorials on all
aspects of creating levels for most of the 1st person "true" 3D shooters.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:57:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> I've not done anything
> myself at this point, but when "First In" is done and there's a lull between
> books, I plan on starting the learning process for this stuff (creating
> Half-Life levels) with the eventual goal of have navigatable deck plans ala
> VRML, but at a much quicker and more natural pace.  'Course, you do have to
> go through the hassle of installing the level first, but oh well. 

Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I
don't own any of them. I suppose I should look at one, but I saw a demo
of Quake, and while the so-called VR is better than, say Doom, it still
bites, IMHO. Oh, yes, and it won't install on my hardware <whine whine
;->

More to the point:

Maybe it's me, but the perspective view in these games is _wrong_
somehow. (relating directly to my 'it bites' comment) It gets to me like
my glasses are knocked out of whack. The one time I played Doom, I got
motion-sick for a day; not an experience I'll likely want to
repeat...all the misery of drinking too much and having the spins
without any of the fun alcoholic bits beforehand... (and I don't get
motion sick in moving things...I think it was the disjoint beween what
my eyes are telling my brain and what my inner ear is telling it...)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:16:11 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>>As a counterargument, I suggest and include as reference the
>>body of Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels
>>(plus, he may be
>>the only sci fi author to have a working grasp of vector
>>addition movement dynamics... ;-)
>
>Although having ships that can accelerate at hundreds (or missiles at
>thousands) of G's kind of takes the stuffing out of newtonian movement.

No, IMHO he just expanded the space scale appropriately.
Whereas Traveller will have planetary actions where the
battle tends to come in from the 100 diameter limit and be
fought close to the planet, Weber establishes a conceptually
similar Hyper Limit around whole solar systems, with transit
times in the many-hours to days to get from there to insystem
(roughly comperable to the timescales involved in moving from
100 diam to planetary surfaces, etc).

This doesn't really help us understand Traveller system-scale
strategic maneuvering... but does provide useful analogies
for single "battles" near single target points/planets and
the potential maneuvering involved.

- -george

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #275
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 276



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Fighter Screens
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
All is gold that glimmers (on the radarscreen)
FFS addons
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: FFS addons
Ground Based Lasers
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:16:11 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screen a la Imperium

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>>As a counterargument, I suggest and include as reference the
>>body of Weber's "Honor Harrington" novels
>>(plus, he may be
>>the only sci fi author to have a working grasp of vector
>>addition movement dynamics... ;-)
>
>Although having ships that can accelerate at hundreds (or missiles at
>thousands) of G's kind of takes the stuffing out of newtonian movement.

No, IMHO he just expanded the space scale appropriately.
Whereas Traveller will have planetary actions where the
battle tends to come in from the 100 diameter limit and be
fought close to the planet, Weber establishes a conceptually
similar Hyper Limit around whole solar systems, with transit
times in the many-hours to days to get from there to insystem
(roughly comperable to the timescales involved in moving from
100 diam to planetary surfaces, etc).

This doesn't really help us understand Traveller system-scale
strategic maneuvering... but does provide useful analogies
for single "battles" near single target points/planets and
the potential maneuvering involved.

- -george

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:10:18 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>Use sub-craft who go active. G:T has things ass-backwards anyway - passive
>sensors have much better range than active (a classic example is the Mk 1
>Eyeball can see Venus, while you need a powerful radar to pick it up).

Cheating. You'd need an almighty big eye to see Venus from it's
emissions in the visual band. The `Mk.1 Eyeball' is in fact one half of
a bistatic active system, with the other half in this case being Sol.

>Mines are basically impossible at Traveller ranges - space is too big.

Modern wet navies use `CAPTOR' (CAPtive TORpedo) mines -  a passive
sensor which, when triggered, fires a lightweight torpedo at the target.
Perhaps some whizz would like to gen. a similar effort up (using a big
missile or whatever) for Traveller?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:02:36 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens

Walter Smith wrote:
>Steven Hudson wrote:

>>>>  So concentrating your battlefleet (i.e., Jutland, Trafalgar, etc.) is
>>>>to be defined as wrong? The strategic rules will reflect this?
>>>
>>>Jutland, where the winning fleet was divided.
>>>
>>>Trafalgar, where the winning fleet was divided.

>>  Operationally, not strategically. The difference if the engaged British 
>>forces had been split between the North Sea and the Channel and Gibraltar
>>and the Channel respectively is noted?

In WWI, the British Fleet was divided (There was at least one Battle Squadron
attached to the Channel fleet).

During the Napoleonic Wars, the British Fleet was divided (with squadrons all
around the World). 

>IMO, I've been talking about operational-level combat (or at least
>the grey area between operational and tactical). In Traveller terms,
>Channel vs Gibraltar is akin to Regina vs Ruie.

Operational/tactical, yep. Note that the `Run to the South' at Jutland was an
intentional division of the Fleet to bring the enemy to battle; and Trafalgar
is famous for the British forces forming two divisions and not a `line of
battle.'

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:29:47 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

>G:T uses sensors in 2 ways (at least IMTU).  First there is detection. Then
>there is targeting. PESA can detect another ship at longer ranges, but
>generally sucks on targeting except at shorter ranges.  AESA can target at
>longer ranges.

This doesnt' seem to be the way the rules are written; the only difference
is that an active detection gets you a +2 to hit. Active sensors have 
significantly longer ranges (long enough that there's no big penalty to beign
active most of the time.)

>That's fairly consistent with RL.
Not especially (depending on what an AESA includes.) Radar is a terrible sensor
to aim a laser with; it just doesn't have the angular resolution you need for
a fine targeting solution. Passive visible-light or near-IR sensors are much
much better. The only significant problem they have is determining range (which
is important for long-range laser fire), but any pair of ships, or ship+drone
can measure range perfectly with passive sensors, or one can build up a 
submarine-like targeting solution through maneuver and fire. 

The perfect fire control sensor is of course a LIDAR, but LIDARs are useless
for search.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:34:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Actually, that's Half-Life, not Quake :)  I'm not a general fan of FPS games
either, with the notable exception of Rainbow Six.  I had the same Doom
experience, I can't play any version of Quake for more than 20 or 30
minutes, and Half-Life seems to be no better.  Rainbow Six did not affect me
in that way, because the movement was correct.  What makes you and me both
motion sick is more-than-likely the bobbing up and down of the movement.
The tweaked perspective may have something to do with it as well, though I
have no problem with it in Rainbow Six.  Unfortunately, R6 doesn't have the
same level-creation support that the Quake / Half-Life communtiy has :(

Bruce, how do react to QTVR or Real Picture panoramas?  I've plans to do
some of those as well.

Jesse


>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> I've not done anything
>> myself at this point, but when "First In" is done and there's a lull
between
>> books, I plan on starting the learning process for this stuff (creating
>> Half-Life levels) with the eventual goal of have navigatable deck plans
ala
>> VRML, but at a much quicker and more natural pace.  'Course, you do have
to
>> go through the hassle of installing the level first, but oh well.
>
>Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I
>don't own any of them. I suppose I should look at one, but I saw a demo
>of Quake, and while the so-called VR is better than, say Doom, it still
>bites, IMHO. Oh, yes, and it won't install on my hardware <whine whine
>;->
>
>More to the point:
>
>Maybe it's me, but the perspective view in these games is _wrong_
>somehow. (relating directly to my 'it bites' comment) It gets to me like
>my glasses are knocked out of whack. The one time I played Doom, I got
>motion-sick for a day; not an experience I'll likely want to
>repeat...all the misery of drinking too much and having the spins
>without any of the fun alcoholic bits beforehand... (and I don't get
>motion sick in moving things...I think it was the disjoint beween what
>my eyes are telling my brain and what my inner ear is telling it...)
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:38:18 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: All is gold that glimmers (on the radarscreen)

Have anyone noticed how one (1) passive decoy in FFS2 often 
costs 1/2 to 1/3 of the ship? If I were a battleship captain I would 
put these in a safe deposit box or buy a CruRon instead.

Futhermore they each use 1% of the ships volume...
All the other decoys have the same problems but to a somewhat lesser 
degree.

Have anyone ever used a decoy on a design?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:38:39 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: FFS addons

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_59f72fd6_6260281$7634e467
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Have anyone expanded FFS2?

What I'm looking for is vectored thrust (for spacecombat),
possibly tilting the whole engine, and high-tech propulsion
systems. It really hurts my suspension of disbelife that a TL-15
must use a jet engine for extra thrust.

I remember a discusion some time back about the notion that heplear
used a airbreathing mode in the atmosphere. Anyone got stats for a 
purely atmosphereic version? For electric turboprops or fans/propellers 
(fision powered)? Arcjets?

Patrik Holmstrm 
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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<html><body bgcolor='#ffffff'>
<table border="0" cellspacing=0 height="300" width="100%" 
bgcolor="#ffffff">
<tr>
<td width="110" 
background="cid:part_00$6260281$7634e467@hotmail.com">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</td>
<td width="100%" valign="top"><font face="Arial, Helvetica" 
color="#000000"><div name='messagebody'>Have anyone expanded FFS2?<br>
<br>
What I'm looking for is vectored thrust (for spacecombat),<br>
possibly tilting the whole engine, and high-tech propulsion<br>
systems. It really hurts my suspension of disbelife that a TL-15<br>
must use a jet engine for extra thrust.<br>
<br>
I remember a discusion some time back about the notion that heplear<br>
used a airbreathing mode in the atmosphere. Anyone got stats for a <br>
purely atmosphereic version? For electric turboprops or fans/propellers 
(fision powered)? Arcjets?<br>
<br>
Patrik Holmstrm &lt;glappkaeft@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
&quot;There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of 
them.&quot;<br>
- --- Terry Pratchett<br>
</div></font></td>
</tr>
</table>

<p><hr>Get Your Private, Free Email at <a 
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:40:04 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I
>don't own any of them. I suppose I should look at one, but I saw a demo
>of Quake, and while the so-called VR is better than, say Doom, it still
>bites, IMHO. Oh, yes, and it won't install on my hardware <whine whine
>;->


Yeah, spending money is a problem.

On the plus side, the 3D environment of the current generation of first
person shooters is quite good. Jedi Knight, particularly, did a good job of
portraying huge panoramas and breathtaking heights. Games like Unreal,
Quake 2, and Half-Life are significant improvements over the 1st and 2nd
generation 3d games. Effects like fog, water, and the like are handled
*very* well.

Hardware support is a problem, though. Unreal almost *requires* 3dfx. Quake
2 is an OpenGL game. Jedi Knight uses Direct3D (I think). All of them ran
on my PC at home without such support, but very poorly and at low
resolution. But when I got a video card (with and ATI RagePro chipset) ...
wow! Well, except for Unreal, that is.

The only one of these I can think of that is currently out on the Mac side
is Unreal.


>More to the point:
>
>Maybe it's me, but the perspective view in these games is _wrong_
>somehow. [...] and I don't get motion sick in moving things...


Do you have the same difficulty with VRML? Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad
for just a simple "walk through" experience. No running, no jumping, no
bang bang, just a nice, slow tour of a ship's interior.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:24 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Who says civilian ships have to be wimps? Quoted from cnn.com:

"WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of the
New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70 shells
into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.

"First, remote-controlled explosive charges blew holes in the hull of the
wreck that has plagued the Oregon coast for more than a month, fouling
miles of beaches.

"When that failed to sink the ship, the destroyer USS David R. Ray opened
up a barrage of artillery fire from its 5-inch guns, and then the nuclear
sub USS Bremerton fired a torpedo shot into the hulk.

"Finally, two hours after demolition experts began their efforts, the
stubborn wreck slipped under the water back-end first and began its descent
two miles to the sea floor.

"It had nine lives and it was not willing to cooperate with us," said Navy
Cmdr. Cliff Perkins, the destroyer's commanding officer. 'This thing seems
to have a life of its own.'"

ObTrav: Maybe its time to break out the nukes??? ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:59:35 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>in that way, because the movement was correct.  What makes you and me both
>motion sick is more-than-likely the bobbing up and down of the movement.
>The tweaked perspective may have something to do with it as well, though I
>have no problem with it in Rainbow Six.


If that *is* the problem, you can turn off the bobbing movement on the
Options menu in Q2. Dunno about Half-Life.

The reason I brought it up is because I thought it'd be easiest to make
deckplan walkthroughs with Quake-engine tools because they are so widely
supported, including prefabs. And since the setting is a sci fi one, it
seems that a  lot of the prefabs would be appropriate. ...


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:50:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: FFS addons

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> 
> Have anyone expanded FFS2?
>

Well, for spacecraft the whole ship is rotated rather than the engine.
but for atmospheric use, this came up on the TTL some time ago, and
Charles Hensley posted the following:

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
> > >I'm presuming it happened on some other list, as the TTL is not known
> > >for it's hot tempers...though I was sorely tempted over the
> > >non-separation of powerplants and  propulsion mechanisms in FFS2.
> >
> > >See what I mean? 8-)
> >
> > But you're right!  It would be a travesty if power plants and power
> > transmissions weren't separate design sequences!   <bg>
>
> In all seriousness, yes it was...in FFS your propulsion and powerplant were
> separate...all you had to do was provide 'X' megawatt hours to a propulsion
> system and it would work, whereas in FFS2 propulsion was tied to its power
> plant more closely.
>
> When I was designing my test grav vehicles I kept having to add turbojets or
> IC props to my designs to get a decent acceleration and top speed with the
> contrta-grav limits. Meanwhile I had a perfectly good Fusion+ powerplant
> cranking out _lots_ of energy, but no way of converting that to forward
> motion. You would think that _some_ bright soul would look at all that power
> coming out, and thought <ding!> electric motors!

OK you asked for it.

electric atmospheric propulsion

TL   Type                min vol    KN/       tons/    MCr/       MW/
                           m^3      m^3        m^3     m^3        m^3
8   Ducted Fan           .500       3.62      2.50     .015       1.16
8   Electric Propeller   .005       1.30      1.00     .040        .36
9   Ducted Fan           .300       6.24      1.75     .030       1.95
9   Electric Propeller   .005       2.00      1.00     .080        .61
10  Ducted Fan           .300       6.90      1.60     .025       2.10
10  Electric Propeller   .005       2.30      1.00     .070        .66
11  Ducted Fan           .250       7.60      1.50     .020       2.25
11  Electric Propeller   .005       2.50      1.00     .060        .73
12  Ducted Fan           .250       8.30      1.33     .015       2.40
12  Electric Propeller   .005       2.75      1.00     .050        .80

Ducted Fan            Transonic
Electric Propeller    Fast Subsonic


proposed changes to existing table

Change  TL 8  High Bypass Turbofan  to Transonic
Add            min vol   thrust    cost   fuel    airframe
8  Turbofan    .100       45       .15    .012    supersonic

I was saving these for when I got enough information to produce a
supersonic
electric propulsion system.

Let me know what you think

Charles

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:10:56 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Ground Based Lasers

	I got this from the CNN website:

"The U.S. laser burns chemicals and uses mirrors to focus a million-watt
energy stream into an 8-foot-wide beam that, acting like a blowtorch, can
potentially disable satellites hundreds of miles away in seconds, the
Times said."

	The full article is discussing a hypotheical Chinese equivalent
weapon... "http://cnn.com/US/9811/28/BC-CHINA-LASER-USA.reut/index.html"

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:08:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> Who says civilian ships have to be wimps? Quoted from cnn.com:

> "When that failed to sink the ship, the destroyer USS David R. Ray opened
> up a barrage of artillery fire from its 5-inch guns, and then the nuclear
> sub USS Bremerton fired a torpedo shot into the hulk.

Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:16:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Bruce Johnson writes:

> Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
> naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
> against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
> something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
> Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

Probably make about 3x as large a hole (3x as large in every dimension). 
Probably only around a dozen shots to sink the ship then.  Also, while 5" guns
are pretty small, torpedos aren't...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:29:36 -0800 (PST)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

> Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
> naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
> against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
> something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
> Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

It might be small by WW2's standards, but unless I'm mistaken it's about the
largest currently in service.  A FFG-7 Class mounts a 76mm gun for example.

			Zane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:47:52 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?


Bremerton fired a torpedo shot into the hulk.
>
>Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
>naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
>against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
>something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
>Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"
>

I hate to intrude reality, but according to a quick check, the 127mm gun is
superseded only by the CIS 130mm gun (several versions).  IIRC, once the
Iowas were moored,the largest guns afloat belonged to, of all people, the
Chileans, who still maintain the O'Higgins, the ex-USS Brooklyn, a US CL
launched in 1936, with 15 152mm guns, and Peru, with two ex-De Ruyters, also
armed with "puny" 152mm guns.  Note that this is from a source from 1992.
It is possible that even these behomeths are no longer in commision, I'd
have to go to the library to find out.  A final note, the "small" 127mm 54
calibre gun fires fixed ammo with a higher velocity than most ground-mounted
sytems.  Even naval 76mm guns are quite deadly, typically being fully
automatic and having very high velocities for CPR guns.  And of course, they
typically have excellent fire control, being fully stabilized and having
range finders, ballistic computers, etc.  All in all, not quite ineffective.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:15:40 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Half-Life does, however, come with Worldcraft 2.0 on the cd.  This is
> supposed to be a very nice level creater / editor in it's own right.  If you
> buy the game, install Worldcraft and then go to
>
> http://halflife.gamedesign.net/
>
> and download the newbie guides and other tutorials.  I've not done anything
> myself at this point, but when "First In" is done and there's a lull between
> books, I plan on starting the learning process for this stuff (creating
> Half-Life levels) with the eventual goal of have navigatable deck plans ala
> VRML, but at a much quicker and more natural pace.  'Course, you do have to
> go through the hassle of installing the level first, but oh well.  It'll
> have to do 'til the event of fully immersive, photorealistic, interactive,
> real time VR.
>
> Later,
> Jesse
>

Oh, Jesse!  When I think about a Half-Life level thats the internal of, say
an Empress Marava, with your textures similar to the ones on your
stuff . . . I get tingly all over.

I stay away from VRML.  But I'd download a HL Marava level.
Or Beowulf.  Or Sulieman.  Or . . .

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:12:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)

Howdy!

Anders dropped this tidbit:
> 
> >Ever thought of doing these as Quake 2 levels? Ooh... gibbing aliens on a
> >Free Trader -- or, better yet -- the Azhanti High Lightning...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Quit it - you're making me salivate on my keyboard. <g>
> >
> >NetQuake, a dozen people or so playing "Great Wine Heist" on a
> >1st-person shooter computer game all over an AHL...
> >
> >Walt Smith
> 
> There is already a nice Subsidized merchant full of aliens for the Marathon
> 3D shoot-em-up.
> 
Where might I find this goodie?

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:18:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> More to the point:
>
> Maybe it's me, but the perspective view in these games is _wrong_
> somehow. (relating directly to my 'it bites' comment) It gets to me like
> my glasses are knocked out of whack. The one time I played Doom, I got
> motion-sick for a day; not an experience I'll likely want to
> repeat...all the misery of drinking too much and having the spins
> without any of the fun alcoholic bits beforehand... (and I don't get
> motion sick in moving things...I think it was the disjoint beween what
> my eyes are telling my brain and what my inner ear is telling it...)

Thats probably from the angular compression these types of games
normally do to squeeze 90 degrees into your monitor.

At least in QII, that is totally configurable/customizable.

And they've come a looong way since Quake.  QIII demos are out
but I haven't tried them yet. Halflife is the most gorgeous thing I've seen
and I'll bet QIII is even better.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #276
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 277



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
STRIKER!
STRIKER!
Re: Canonicity
Not in *my* ship, we don't!
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Starship Flight Recorders
Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!
And You Thought X-Ray Lasers Were Cool...
signal enhancers for FFS2/DSR
Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Traveller meets General Quarters
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Pak Protectors
Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
Re: Canonicity
Re: Canonicity
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:20:28 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> What makes you and me both motion sick is more-than-likely the bobbing up and
> down of the movement.

That also is totally configurable in Quake II.  You just need to
add a line to the Console.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:23:41 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

<>Use sub-craft who go active. G:T has things ass-backwards anyway - passive
>>sensors have much better range than active (a classic example is the Mk 1
>>Eyeball can see Venus, while you need a powerful radar to pick it up).

OK, how about Sirius? In GURPS sensor terms, you can't see Sirius with a 
passive sensor either. (And calling the reflected sunlight from Venus "active"
is a quibble - GURPS still models it badly, because most combat occurs in
regions close to stars and hence reflected sunlight is important.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:31:20 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> >Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2 levels.
> >And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump in with a minimum
> >of hassle.
> 
> Hmm. You woldn't happen to know where I could find this, do you? I'm > trying
> to immerse myself in 3d computer art anyway ...

http://www.planetquake.com/quark/

Quark supports Q1, Q2, HalfLife, Heretic 2, Hexen 2, Sin, 
and can easily be extended to support others. 

I and my coworkers have used Quark to develop a Quake
modification professionally in '97; I give it two thumbs up.

The developer, Armin Rigo, was at the time very responsive
to our requests and problem reports; most every apparent-bug
and deficiency we spotted was already being fixed by the 
time we reported it. I think he's spending less time on it
now, but it's still a very solid program.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:29:39 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

I won't be useing Quake II, I'll be useing Half-Life.  Do you know if it's
configureable in HL as well?  What's the command?  THANKS!

So if Traveller Quake is TravQuake, is Traveller Half-Life TravLife?  :D

Jesse




>
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
>> What makes you and me both motion sick is more-than-likely the bobbing up
and
>> down of the movement.
>
>That also is totally configurable in Quake II.  You just need to
>add a line to the Console.
>
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:00:10 -0500
From: "Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM>
Subject: STRIKER!

Anyone know of any websites, or subscription lists, devoted to STRIKER?

Abel
(TNE-Grognard)
agarcia@us.rhodia.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:00:10 -0500
From: "Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM>
Subject: STRIKER!

Anyone know of any websites, or subscription lists, devoted to STRIKER?

Abel
(TNE-Grognard)
agarcia@us.rhodia.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:12:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> >I see absolutely nothing that says the 'plasma torch' has to be a gigantic
> >plume, in an atmosphere.
> 
> My gut feel is that it would be a problem, if only in the same way that
> afterburners are (cracked runway anyone?). YMMV. It is possibly a problem
> for space stations, but you could use a shuttle OMS type system instead.

There should probably be the same net effect as for T-plates, methinks.  The
art still shows a "thrust-like" plume of... something, even if it's just an
ambiguous glow of some kind.

> >Again, T-plates (amongst
> >other manuever drives) were provided ....
> 
> As an unofficial 'alternative'...

The way HEPlaR/T-plates are presented in FF&S and Challenge wouldn't affect
any of the source material, adventures, or campaigning in any way.  The
assumptions of refueling at gas giants would still hold true (though less fuel
would be required), for the jump drives, etc.  Only difference is in
particular designs, etc.  I contemplated having T-plates be what used pre-
collapse and that the particulars of the technology would require that they be
integrated with the computer and AG/G-comp in such a way that Virus would
require that be replaced in the New Era, for a complete protection against
infection.  But then I decided it didn't matter for me.  YMMV.  :-)

> >cracked the cover on it.  Arent' they in Star Mercs?  What was the handwave
> >used?
> 
> Yes, there're in Star Mercs, and are pretty much close range weapons. (8000
> and 11000 mi Max).

Was there any handwave given for how the ship they're fired at is still there
when the plasma/fusion "projectile" arrives?

> >And what ranges etc).  FF&S 1 and 2 don't have them as such.  I'd call
> >that a tie until I here just how Star Mercs treats them.  And i'll take BR
> >over HG any day of the week.  ;-)
> 
> I like both; BL is too complex for anyone but serious gamers... it would
> switch most of my players off..

Note that I said B*R* or Battle Rider.  BL is IMO only appropriate for the PCs
vessel, and that wasn't too cumbersome for all the PCs to manage their own
ship (and they're hardly 'serious gamers').  That level of detail, for the
players ship anyways, is required and desired, IMO anyways.

> I have a problem with the GDW house system; it seemed over complex (much as
> CT's combat does to me). You may disagree ;-/

Huh?  

> My favourite Trav setting is Hard Times, followed by Spinward Marches 1105
> to 1120 on a par with M0.

After the RC, I'd have to say maybe the Regency, though I have plans on
running an near future Alternate Universe w/ 3D astrography (granted by Jim
V's equally excellent Starmap v. 1.0) and Alternate Tech from FF&S.  It's
looking very 2300AD, but I'm mostly gonna continue running the RC in the 1203
for my upcoming set of campaigns.   Next, would have to follow the early
Rebellion (Solomani Confederation), though I've never run anything outside of
the RC or Regency except a one timer set *during* the Collapse (Virus hits,
the sh*t hits the fan and find a way to survive/escape doom).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:23:19 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Not in *my* ship, we don't!

Rob Eaglestone and I have been discussing starport
design and I just had to share a thought I had.

With some Class D's, the starport may be nothing
more than some local who goes out and torches a
field to clear the undergrowth when notified a ship
 wants to land. ;-)

"Ayup, the pad'll be clear'n 'bout an hour
or so. Why don't ye tell me 'bout the goin's
on at Ry-lanner while we be waitin'? Oh 'n
'pon landin' ye'll be wantin' to watch fer
them stumps on t' north side."

This leads me to the following question for the
TML.

What was the *worst* starport conditions you've
every landed at.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:24:40 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Joseph R. Dietrich writes
>
>> Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2
>> levels.  And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump
>> in with a minimum of hassle.
>
> Hmm. You woldn't happen to know where I could find this,
> do you?  I'm trying to immerse myself in 3d computer art
> anyway ...


http://www.planetquake.com/  for all things Quakish

http://www.planetshogo.com/  for those Shogo coders

http://www.spazz3d.com/  for a cool free (in beta) visual
                         VRML 2.0 modeller

http://www.povray.org/  Persistence of Vision ray tracing
                        excellent multi-platform 3D graphics


http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6599 my home page of
misc stuff including 3D starships (non Traveller) and some
VRML avatars, etc.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:02:51 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Starship Flight Recorders

For those of you who use flight recorders in starships,
RealWorld(tm) flight recorders may be getting a facelift.
ABC is running a story on design modifications which
goes into some detail as to what info is, and will be,
captured.

The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/blackbox990312.html

It has some interesting ideas.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:03:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!

On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> What was the *worst* starport conditions you've
> every landed at.

The players in my game ended up grounded on a primitive planet, and wanted
to refuel, but for reasons I won't go into, they could not lift off and go
to skim the oceans. So the engineer built a drilling rig and sunk a well,
then used a pump to bring groundwater up and send it into the tanks.

He joked that he'd just built a Class D Starport  ;)

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:20:19 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: And You Thought X-Ray Lasers Were Cool...

The following has absolutely *no* obvious military
applications.

(yeah, right)

It *is* very cool for nanotechnology (maybe).

- ----------
Atom Laser Invented
Opens Possibilities for Atom Construction 

By Paul Recer
The Associated Press

W A S H I N G T O N,  March 11 - Scientists have invented a
device that shoots streams of atoms in any direction the
same way that a laser sends out beams of light. 

The breakthrough, made possible by nudging super-cold,
super-slow atoms into a beam, could lead to a revolutionary new
tool for making extremely small computer chips, said William D.
Phillips, who led a federal team that developed the device. 

A report on the work appears Friday in the journal Science. 
- ----------



For the full story, check out:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/atomlaser990311.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:21:17 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: signal enhancers for FFS2/DSR

An early easter present for ECM designers: 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IR and visible enhancers allow a ship to simulate another, larger ship class.

The designer first selects the signature level being simulated. This must
be greater than the signature of the ship carrying the enhancer (and,
ideally, one whole point greater.) 

An "all-aspect" IR enhancer requires considerable power, with the
exact power requirements depending on the type of ship being simulated:

IR Signature	Power required
- -2		0.005 MW
- -1.5		0.05 MW
- -1.0		0.5 MW
- -0.5		5 MW
0		50 MW
0.5		500 MW
1.0		5000 MW
1.5		50000 MW
2.0		500000 MW


A "single-arc" enhancer only appears as an enhanced target in one
thirty-degree arc (chosen at time of design, although some ships may
have multiple single-arc enhancers installed and only one powered
at a given time.)

Enhancers have a volume of 0.2 m3 per MW of power used and an
area of 1 m2 per MW. They cost [MCr 0.01 per m2] and mass 1 tonne per m3. 
For ships or drones with limited surface area they
may be designed as folding arrays; these reduce surface area requirements
by a factor of ten and increase cost by a factor of two.
[Cost is a guess - 
I don't have FFS2 handy - could someone tell me how much radiator area and
price you need per MW at TL12?]



Visible-light enhancers are large areas of specialized chamelon skin, 
requiring little power but considerable surface area:


Vis. signature		Area
- -1.5			5 m2
- -1.0			50 m2
- -0.5			500 m2
0.0			5000 m2
0.5			50000 m2
1.0			500000 m2

Visible-light enhancers have a volume of 0.05 m3 per m2 of area. They cost
MCr 0.05 per m2. For ships or drones with limited surface area they
may be designed as folding arrays; these reduce surface area requirements
by a factor of ten and increase cost by a factor of two.

An IR or visible enhancer may only
appear as a ship of equal or lower tech level. Enhancers normally
are configured to simulate one particular ship class. "Adaptable" enhancers
capable of simulating multiple classes have twice the area, volume, and cost
but the same power requirement. Configuring an adaptable enhancer to 
simulate a particular ship type is a Difficult ECM roll, Staggering if 
the class is a military ship belonging to a rival government (or in other
cases in technical data from the manufacturer is not available.) 

Enhancers may be switched off at will. Operating an enhancer is an Easy
ECM roll, +1 DM (harder) if the enemy ships have not yet been detected.
When activated, the ship
will appear to have a higher signature to all affected hostile targets, 
and will initially appear to be of the selected simulated class.  
Determining that a detected ship is using an enhancer is normally an
Impossible sensor roll. This is modified by as follows:

Signal: -1 DM for each point of (sensitivity-range+signature) the ship
	has been detected by
Tech level: -1 DM for each tech level the sensor exceeds the enhancer by
Signature: +1 DM (harder) if the ship carrying the enhancer has a signature
	1 point or more less than the signature being simulated

If the roll is more difficult than Impossible it may not be attempted. 
In general, at tactical combat ranges enhancers will be quickly detected
(typical signals at combat ranges on previously-detected targets are
around +3 or more.) 



[Missing are rules for AEMS and LIDARs - any volunteers?]

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:20:58 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:24 -0600 ()
> "WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of the
> New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70 shells
> into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.

On the other hand, I recall during the Falklands War that after a single
Exocet missile hit a British cruiser, the cruiser sank in minutes.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:34:56 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Traveller meets General Quarters

I had a group of players who went to refuel on a TL-6 world with a high law
level and no gas giant.
normal procedure is to ask for permission to ocean refuel, and they dont
get real uptight. the problem
being the players were on the run from subsector authorities for a couple
of reasons and really didnt
want to announce their presence. 

So they decided to refuel without permission. they were in an A2 
Far Trader, and set down in the ocean for a drink. The Locals picked the
ship up on traffic control radars, but due to it being local night, didnt want
to send aircraft out to investigate. a little while later the guy on sensor
watch
screams at the captain "High Speed Screws in the Water!!!!1"
there was a group of submarines in the area that went to investigate. and a
couple 
of local equivilants to the Guppy class fired a spread of torpedoes. the
guy on sensors
must have been asleep or something.  they were in the water but had the cg
on standby
so the pilot took her straight up. she avoided the torps, but almost caught
a couple of 8" shells 
from the wolf pack leader, a rough equivilant of the French Surcouf class
Cruiser Sub
at this point, the captain decided it was time to find out why the locals
were so pissed.
whoops.

I was wondering how to handle damage if the torpedoes had actually hit.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:02:11 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

> Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
> naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. [...] I'd like to
have seen what the
> Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"


Thus the difference between turrets and 50-ton bays. ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:15:31 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!

One of my favorites was having the party land at a lo-tech, class D world.
One of the locals came up and offered to refuel the ship, which the party
agreed to - then they went off for a day of business and carousing.

When they came back, they found a canvass hose fitting into a starship fuel
nozzle, leading back to a primitive mule-powered (mule attached to the pump,
walks around in a circle to move the fluid) pump.

Took three days (and 4 mules) to refuel the starship.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:32:10 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I

Does this mean that my kids are downloading pireated software when they
run Quake on the school computers?  Would the company that makes Quake be
interested in sueign the school board for this?  (Maybe this would finally
force the IT chaps to remove their heads from their rectal orifices and do
something about the network.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:12:53 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Rob Prior wrote:

> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> >Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I
>
> Does this mean that my kids are downloading pireated software when they
> run Quake on the school computers?  Would the company that makes Quake be
> interested in sueign the school board for this?  (Maybe this would finally
> force the IT chaps to remove their heads from their rectal orifices and do
> something about the network.)

They may be playing free demos.  Usually you have to have a registered
version of Quake to play in multiplayer, which means that it was paid
for somewhere in the line.  Its possible to crack those codes, but I doubt
that is what is going on.  There are a great many multiplayer modifications
for Quake that are totally free.  They're created by volunteers and there
is no restrictions on their use.  These are also the most creative and
interesting variants to play.  So I think your kids are ok, legally speaking.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:14:55 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Pak Protectors

At 12:27 am 3/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>On 03/11/99 at 06:30 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
said:
>>>Well, actually, Pak protectors don't have penises.  Not even the
>>>ones that used to be male.
>
>>	IIRC, their genitals become a second heart ...
>
>For former male breeders, it should be a second *brain*, Dave.  Why,
>aren't our women are always telling us we think with our genitals
>already?  This would explain A LOT!  ;-p

	Would've made more sense. Instead, Niven had the testicles shrivel
up, the blood vessels expand and merge, and muscle tissue form around
them ... Yikes!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:22:41 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)

At 01:25 am 3/12/99 PST, you wrote:
>Sooner or later a crew the right age will be able to capture a Pak
ship
>intact. Capturing the pilot alive is a bonus, but not needed. 
>
>Now you've got Solomani/Vilani/Zhodani/Whatever Protectors. And the
>whole equation changes. Once humaniti has tree-of-life, the Pak are
>doomed unless the human Protectors have a reason to keep them alive.
>
>For a special nightmare have the capture involve a ship crewed by
>members of Famile Spofulam. Given their attitudes, I can easily see
>them deciding to let whatever is going on with the affected crew
>members run its course. 

If I recall the stories, protectors perceive their bloodlines fairly
narrowly ... only their _own_ offspring (and maybe close relatives)
"smell" right. That's why most protectors simply stop living if their
bloodlines are destroyed. No revenge, no struggle, they just ...
stop. And it's not conscious choice, it's wired in. Only a *very* few
ever "adopt" the entire race.

Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
someone to threaten her family ...

Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
bloodline ... and therefore a threat.

Will the rest of FS unite to save humaniti from one of their own ...
or join her?

Me, I'm heading for the next galaxy over.
	
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:39:44 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

David J. Golden wrote:

> At 12:06 pm 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >as the Ceeteeyites, and they are holy.
>
> >by the Books of Errors are known as the Emteeyites, and they are
> unholy.
>
> >known as the Teeyeneeyites, and they are unclean. Those who follow
> the
>
> >For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
> are
>
>         Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
> in?

See Below

> And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?

 We're still heretics and un repentant.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:42:40 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 03/11/99 at 06:32 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:
>
> >>For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
> >are
>
> >       Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
> >in? And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?
>
> Dave, you're one of the "Four Horsemen", so you don't need classification. As for me...I'm just...
>
> Eris,
>     the Heretic ;->

Ok, Loren is one, who were the other 3. It has been way too long since
that thread.

Me, I'm the 5th wheel of apocalypse.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:29:01 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> > "When that failed to sink the ship, the destroyer USS David R. Ray opened
> > up a barrage of artillery fire from its 5-inch guns, and then the nuclear
> > sub USS Bremerton fired a torpedo shot into the hulk.
>
> Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
> naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
> against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
> something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
> Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

Depends on you target. Newer tankers are built like bricks.

Way back when I was young. I was ordered to board a tanker that was
hit by a mine in the Persian Gulf. a small gash in the outer hull, a hairline
crack in the inner, and a couple of stuck below decks hatches.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #277
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 13 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 278



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!
Dulinor Suite
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)
Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
Re: Spofulam Protectors
Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #268
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
(no subject)
Showtime's Outer Limits
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Outer Limits
Re: Outer Limits
Worst Port Conditions
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: STRIKER!
Muscle Power : some handy numbers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:14:52 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>What was the *worst* starport conditions you've
>every landed at.

Florine atmosphere, gale force winds with lots of sheer, in a seismicly
unstable region, with a landing beacon that failed halfway through the
approach.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:14:40 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Dulinor Suite

Has anyone got a copy of the Dulinor Suite that they could send to me? I
can't connect to the old link to where it used to be. I would appreciate the
help.

"Being attacked in the House by him is like being savaged by a dead sheep."
Denis Healy, British politician, referring to the attack by Sir Geoffrey
Howe upon his budget proposals, in the Listener.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:11:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/12/99 4:03:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
yikes@evansville.net writes:

<<  Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
 > naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. [...] I'd like to
 have seen what the
 > Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"
 
 
 Thus the difference between turrets and 50-ton bays. ;-)
 
 Ciao, >>

Very true. The AHL bays show HUGE triple turrets...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:07:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Not in *my* ship, we don't!

In a message dated 3/12/99 2:26:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< What was the *worst* starport conditions you've
 every landed at.
  >>

Easy; I landed at a TL3 world with a starport E (duh...). They delivered my
fuel in WOODEN barrels on animal drawn wagons! I couldn't ocean refuel as the
only water on the planet was either locked into the icecaps (and I'm NOT going
to tell you how long that takes...), or in hidden wells (so the locals could
gouge me for fuel costs no doubt...).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:22:40 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>There are a great many multiplayer modifications
>for Quake that are totally free.  They're created by volunteers and there
>is no restrictions on their use.  These are also the most creative and
>interesting variants to play.  So I think your kids are ok, legally
>speaking.

Damn. The IT department would move on a legal issue, but ignores the fact
that kids playing Quake mean that other kids can't do their work.  My team
leader is proud that 40% of the computers are used for school work - I
think that 60% being used to play games is a shocking waste of taxpayers'
money.  (And also impossible to stop, given the current configuration and
lack of staff to supervise every screen.)

Oh well, March Break has officially started here. Just got to shop for a
12-year old girl (birthday party tomorrow, suggestions for a pressy
welcome 'cause I'm stumped) and then I can start the GT mods for Metator.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:54:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In mail you write:

> Who says civilian ships have to be wimps? Quoted from cnn.com:
>
> "WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of the
> New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70 shells
> into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.
>
> "First, remote-controlled explosive charges blew holes in the hull of the
> wreck that has plagued the Oregon coast for more than a month, fouling
> miles of beaches.
>
> "When that failed to sink the ship, the destroyer USS David R. Ray opened
> up a barrage of artillery fire from its 5-inch guns, and then the nuclear
> sub USS Bremerton fired a torpedo shot into the hulk.
>
> "Finally, two hours after demolition experts began their efforts, the
> stubborn wreck slipped under the water back-end first and began its descent
> two miles to the sea floor.
>
> "It had nine lives and it was not willing to cooperate with us," said Navy
> Cmdr. Cliff Perkins, the destroyer's commanding officer. 'This thing seems
> to have a life of its own.'"

What they fail to mention is that this was just the bow section. The
stern (with all the heavy machinery) is still stuck on the beach near
Coos Bay. And "failed to sink" means that the bow was still sticking up
out of the water.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:27:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits (was Re: Starport Modular Components)

In mail you write:

>>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:29:38 PST
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Starport Modular Components
>>
>>I think you mistake the purpose. The key is the phrase "parking orbit".
>>Think of them as being like the deep water mooring bouys at some
>>shallow water ports. The ship is assigned a parking spot, which is
>>marked by the transponder. It matches orbit with it and is then parked.
>>
>
> No mistake at all -- that is precisely the model to which I object:
>
> (1) Again, this is not 2D surface navigation: you cannot simply "fly to" a
> satellite and park behind it. If you have to calculate your orbit anyway,
> what it the value of the satellite?

It establishes that *this* is where *you* are supposed to be parked,
and over *there* is where some other ship is supposed to be parked. And
you *don't* have to calculate an orbit. You merely have to match
velocities and move around the satellite until the docking light is
centered (the light points in the ahead or behind direction, or there
may even be different colored lights one pointing in each direction)

That later config would allow two ships per "bouy" if necessary.


> (2) The ship herself already has a transponder, and thus acts as her own
> hazard marker.

That's not the purpose.

> (3) Orbits are not static: you can't simply put them on a "chart" and
> expect them to remain fixed. In fact, it is mathematically impossible to
> arrive at a deterministic solution to an orbital mechanics problem
> involving three or more bodies (planet, ship, and star). Rather than have
> to adjust the orbits of two objects (satellite and ship), why not simply
> worry about the ship?

Sorry, but you have been reading overly simplified descriptions. The
*general* three body solution (ie you start with any three bodies, of
any masses, in any position, with any velocities) is what is generally
called "insoluble". There *is* a solution. But it involves a converging
series that converges too slowly to be *practical*. 

There are *lots* of solutions to *specific* three body problems. For
example, the so-called "trojan points" are a solution. There are just
limits on the positions velocities and masses for which the solution
applies. 

Heck, they assign orbital "slots" to geosynchronous satellites right
now, to avoid problems with collisions, and interference. 

For objects of insignificant mass orbiting a *massive* object such as a
planet, you can get solutions that are good for *years* using fairly
simple programs.

Heck, by your logic commsats don't work!

> (4) How many of these things should one expect to see in orbit? Hundreds?
> At what point do they become a hazard to navigation all out of proportion
> to their usefulness? Plan a large enough margin of error (10 km? 100 km?)
> between on-orbit parking assignments and there is no need for the
> additional clutter.

Get real. You aren't grasping the *scale* involved. To become hazards
you'd not only need *millions* of them, you'd have to have them in all
sorts of orbits. 

>>And btw, contrary to what you state above, you can be in the same orbit
>>as something *without* being physically docked to it. Easiest is to
>>assume a position slightly ahead or behind it (in terms of its orbit).
>>once you match velocities you will *stay* at that seperation.
>
> You do not "stay" at that separation over any appreciable length of time,
> unless you expend time and effort on station-keeping (as I said, in so many
> words). Orbits are never perfect in the real world -- perturbations from
> irregularities in the planet's gravitational field and from other celestial
> objects act differently on the satellite and the ship, accumulate, and
> cause the separation (and the orbit, for that matter) to change. This is
> especially true of very low or resonant orbits (planetary synchronous, etc.).

So? The variation in distance will be pretty minor. Remember, the
*same* forces will be acting on both the satellite and the ship. True,
they'll be happening at slightly different times, but that shouldn't be
that big a factor.

So what if the distance between them varies from 10 to 1000 meters.
Given that (for example) geosynch orbit has a length of over 230,000
km, you could park ships 10 km apart and have 23,000 of them parked. 

Obviously, all parking orbits need to be at the same inclination (and
probably circular), but if you get really strapped for space, you start
assigning with differing radii. 

To hold a million ships, you only need 40 orbits with 25,000 slots each
or 50 with 20,000 slots each. Assume the radii are set every 100 km or
so, that has the ships spread out in an annulus 5000 km "across". But
there's still *plenty* of space for traffic.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:31:38 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)

"David J. Golden" wrote:
>
> Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
> Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
> almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
> someone to threaten her family ...
> 
> Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
> bloodline ... and therefore a threat.
> 
> Will the rest of FS unite to save humaniti from one of their own ...
> or join her?
> 
> Me, I'm heading for the next galaxy over.
> 

And I'm right behind you, until I can pass that is (old proverb: I don't
have to run faster than the BEAR, I just have to run faster than YOU!)

I don't beleive that Protector would still be the appropriate name for a
Ditzieee Pak. Something more along the line of Destructor might be more
appropriate!

Gosh, I'm ready to wet my pants thinking about it!

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:36:01 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Spofulam Protectors

>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:22:41 -0500
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
>>
>Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
>Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
>almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
>someone to threaten her family ...
>

For what it's worth, I think tripling Ditzie's IQ would shunt her well
beyond the limits of sanity.

Pak with access to common-or-garden artificial wombs on the other hand ...

>Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
>bloodline ... and therefore a threat.

Unfortunatly for DitziePak, FS competes against itself. She'll be so busy
keeping the other tykes in line she wont have the time and energy to deal
with the rest of the galaxy.

I mean, would any Pak allow it's bloodline to play with the sort of R+D FS
comes out with ?

>
>Will the rest of FS unite to save humaniti from one of their own ...
>or join her?

I'm not sure FS is capable of uniting against anything.

>
>Me, I'm heading for the next galaxy over.

Probably a plan whenever FS is involved, yes.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:46:09 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
> Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
> almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
> someone to threaten her family ...
> 
> Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
> bloodline ... and therefore a threat.
> 
> Will the rest of FS unite to save humaniti from one of their own ...
> or join her?
> 
> Me, I'm heading for the next galaxy over.
> 
Can I catch a ride with you?  I just have to Pak my bags....  >;-)

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:14:34 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

In a message dated 99-03-12 13:39:18 EST, you write:

<< the bobbing up and down of the movement. >>

Jesse, thinking of you bobbing up and down on anything is enough to make me
more than queazy.  I haven't yet seen R6 (yes still one of those unwashed
barbarians) but I also couldn't take long play of Doom with out getting a "car
sick" like feeling.  Oh well, the game bored me in about that amount of time
anyway.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:45:47 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

- ----------
> From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
> Date: Friday, 12 March, 1999 6:20 PM
> 
> > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:24 -0600 ()
> > "WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of
the
> > New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70
shells
> > into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.
> 
> On the other hand, I recall during the Falklands War that after a single
> Exocet missile hit a British cruiser, the cruiser sank in minutes.  
> 
Not so.  One Exocet hit the destroyer Sheffield, which burned quickly and
was abandoned.  However, she didn't sink for a couple of days.  there was
even hope that she might be salvaged, and they were trying to tow her out
when the weather turned bad, I think.

The Argentines lost Belgrano, an ex-US Navy cruiser, to a torpedo spread (2
hits, IIRC).  She did sink in a matter of minutes, largely due to the
complete lack of warning and lack of preparation by the crew.  

Both were effective kills, but the speed of sinking depends on whether the
holes you make  let in air or water.  Missiles will kill, but not
necessarily sink.  Torpedoes will do both.

ObTrav: standard Traveller space combat missiles don't have nearly as
impressive an effect on their target as contemporary anti-ship missiles and
torpedoes do, unless you use nukes.  One or two missile hits aren't going
to kill any but the smallest Traveller warship.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:27:58 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #268

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:20:50 -0500, "Sword Worlder"
><swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:
>>Workable idea.  I can see how this might be popular, if we do it right.
>
>This is what come.to does; there's actually a slight flaw in the
>concept - you can't specify a sub-URL (e.g.,
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller/features/stories/Default.htm).
>However, I've been thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm
>pretty sure that you could get the additional capability by using
>a CGI.  SwordWorlder, I'd be willing to discuss this in more
>detail with you and Ron privately if Downport is interested in
>this idea.

You can also do it "in browser" using a Java redirector. It's what we did with
our "help pages " at work, we wanted people to be able to hit F1 and go to the
right (context-sensitive) page, we also wanted a menu and title frame always
there with the help page in a sub frame.

As you say, you can't directly do this in HTML, but you can specify a Java
applet in the frame that takes the "paramter" part of the URL to redirect the
frame to the apporpiate page..

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:52:27 -0500
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

At 03:20 PM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:24 -0600 ()
>> "WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of the
>> New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70 shells
>> into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.
>
>On the other hand, I recall during the Falklands War that after a single
>Exocet missile hit a British cruiser, the cruiser sank in minutes.  
>
>--Glenn

You may have 2 separate surface actions mingled.  The Brits didn't lose a
cruiser, the Arger's lost one to a torp. The Brits lost the HMS Sheffield,
a guided missile frigate to an Exocet.  (BTW as an interesting tid-bit of
information the cruiser, the name escapes me, was the last major ship still
on active service that was at Pearl when the Jap's attacked.  We sold it
the Argentina in the late 60's it think.)

Well the sinking can be attributed to cost savings measures by the British
navy.  The ship was a frigate and some years back the Brits started making
their guided missile FG's out of high-tech aluminum alloy.  It was lighter,
very hard, resistant to the corrosion of saltwater and to barnacles so it
saved tons of money on maintenance.  As an added plus when decommissioned
it brought top dollars as scrap.  The drawback became painfully clear when
the missile hit.  The Exocet has a shaped charge so it penetrated the hull
like hot butter then exploded inside to cause max damage.  The fires were
so intense that the aluminum hull began to melt and burn at a much lower
temp then a steel alloy hull would, the fumes were toxic which hampered
fire fighting efforts.  Now I can't remember exactly but I don't think the
Exocet sank the Sheffield but instead it was abandoned and the Royal navy
scuttled her either with torps or surface fire, though I'm pretty sure it
was a torp below the waterline, quick and clean with less moral problems
then associated with watching the ship get torn apart by surface guns.



Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:23:45 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

	An interesting site to visit, especially there last two notes (ongoing
medical research in space):

http://www.nsbri.org/research/newresearch.html


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:01:48 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Showtime's Outer Limits

Anyone else see the Outer Limits on Showtime tonight? I don't want to
spoil the show but it was a great TNE scenario.

Humans used as repair crew on sentient spacecraft. 
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:55:52 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

"One of these days Alice,....POW, right in the kisser!"  :P

I never saw the greatness in Doom myself, though later games had more "wow"
factor.

Jesse

>Jesse, thinking of you bobbing up and down on anything is enough to make me
>more than queazy.  I haven't yet seen R6 (yes still one of those unwashed
>barbarians) but I also couldn't take long play of Doom with out getting a
"car
>sick" like feeling.  Oh well, the game bored me in about that amount of
time
>anyway.
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:13:10 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Outer Limits

If you get a chance to see Showtime's Outer Limits this week, do so.  Very
TNE, very Virus.  Even though Harlan Ellison and A.E. Van Vought (?)
co-wrote the short story the episode it was based on, I half expeced to see
that it was based on TNE in the credits (there was no such listing).

It gives you a bit of insight into what life on a Vampire might be like.



Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:57:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Outer Limits

Not to mention the girl is a babe ;)
Jesse



>If you get a chance to see Showtime's Outer Limits this week, do so.  Very
>TNE, very Virus.  Even though Harlan Ellison and A.E. Van Vought (?)
>co-wrote the short story the episode it was based on, I half expeced to see
>that it was based on TNE in the credits (there was no such listing).
>
>It gives you a bit of insight into what life on a Vampire might be like.
>
>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>kurt@blazenet.net
>Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
>WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
>
>Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
>single-handedly move the world.
>--- Archimedes ---
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:41:43 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Worst Port Conditions

Worst port conditions?

How about: in the twilight zone of a tidally-locked world,, with a constant
but eddying wind racing from one region to the other? That made for a fun
landing.

We also once made a water landing on a 97C water surface by a floating
port/raft, with clouds of steam obscuring everything and the requirement to
be towed by boat into a floating berth. In high sea conditions.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:12:34 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Date sent:      	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:08:49 -0700
From:           	Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

>Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>
>> Who says civilian ships have to be wimps? Quoted from cnn.com:

>Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
>naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
>against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
>something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
>Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

Common misconception. Because large shells do so much damage to
large amoured targets, people assume that they will do similar damage
to small unarmoured vessels. However the truth is that, unless they hit
something with significant resistance (like an engine), the Mo's guns
would only make two neat 40.6cm holes in the hull.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:24:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: STRIKER!

...
>Anyone know of any websites, or subscription lists, devoted to STRIKER?

  The closest thing would likely be Trav-tech:

>To unsubscribe, send a message with "unsubscribe" in the body of the message
>to trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com.  A non-digest version is also available,
>to join, send a message containing "subscribe" to trav-tech-request@qrc.com.
>
>Traveller is a trademark of FFE.  The use of any trademark or copyright in
>posts to this list is not a challenge to trademark or copyright status.
>The list is not an official function of QRC, and is not sponsored or
>sanctioned by FFE, IG, or Marc Miller.  Individual posters are solely
>responsible for the content of their messages.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:30:37 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Muscle Power : some handy numbers

I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but some of you may find the
following data of use :-

Power Output, Watts	Duration	Comments
1119			5 seconds	Trained cyclist
373			5 seconds	Average cyclist
283			15 seconds
142			30 seconds
71			1-2 minutes
37			'indefinite'

Muscle efficiency estimates range from 21-27% (overall thermal ->
mechanical) for the following activities.

Activity	Peak Velocity	Duration
Swimming	6.5		~1min
Walking		12.9		~10min
Rowing		17.7		~5 min
Running		36		~10 sec
Roller skating	35		~2 min
Ice skating	48		~2 min
Cycling		60		~10 sec

peak velocities are in km/h, without external assistance.

Ob Trav :-
(a rethink of an earlier post) :-
Power Output, W/kg	Duration	Comments
0.5			'indefinite'	Basal
1			1-2 mins	X 2
2			30 seconds	X 4
4			15 seconds	X 8
5			5 seconds	X 10

This is for an average human (STR 7, END 7).

For strength values above 7 :-
X1.2 per point above 7 to basal power output.
STR   8    9    10   11   12   13   14   15
Bonus 1.2  1.4  1.7  2.1  2.5  3.0  3.6  4.3

So a character with STR 12 has a base power output of 1.25W/kg.

Athletics skill should factor in here too. +10% per skill level (+5%
per T5 skill level)?

The role of the endurance stat is set an upper limit to task duration :-

e.g.
To maintain power output at a given level :-
(End + skill*) > Difficulty

Multiple of basal power output	Difficulty
2				Average
4				Difficult
8				Formidable
10				Staggering
16+				Impossible

* Use Athletics skill or Strength, whichever is higher.
Time increment is as per 'Duration' column of the power output table
e.g. if working at 2X basal power, check every minute. 

Relating this to other quantities :-

ST X 1 : load that can be carried for more than 5 minutes = basal power
ST X 2 : encumbrance, -1 to physical chars
ST X 3 : military heavy load, -2 to chars
ST X 5 : load that can be carried for less than 5 mins = X 2 basal
ST X 10 : maximum liftable for a minute or less = X 4 basal
ST X 15 : maximum draggable for five mins or less = X 8 basal
ST X 20 : maximum liftable for fifteen seconds or less = X 10 basal
ST X 30 : maximum liftable for five seconds or less (symmetrical e.g.
weight bar) 
ST X 60 : maximum draggable for fifteen seconds or less
ST X 90 : maximum draggable for five seconds or less

'Liftable' implies lifting the weight above one's head. 
Dragging things for the sake of convenience is 3X easier than lifting
them, and is equivalent to lifting something to knee height at best.

Comments and constructive criticism welcome.


References
Cycling Science : author, publisher Chapters 1 and 2.
MT Player's Manual. 

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #278
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 13 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 279



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Post FF&S2 Oddments
Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re : Traveller Meets General Quarters
Re : signal enhancers for FF&S2/DSR
Re : Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re : Current space medicine research
Free Trader Beowulf Page is Moving
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Starport Component List
Re: Parking Orbits
Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: for your interest
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Wankel engines
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:30:45 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Post FF&S2 Oddments

Patrik Holmstrom wrote :-
> 
> Have anyone expanded FFS2?

There's a few variant rules salted away here and there. Check the Trav
Tech list archives, trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com.

There are some factoids referred to in the list below which may be of
general interest :-

ttd5 and 6 Lahtinnen and Esser on alternate robotics/computer system
ttd046 - Bruce's revised damage system
ttd054 - Harold Hale on alternate materials
ttd062 - Sinbad Sam on computers
ttd070 - important notes on missile damage, cratering model, etc.
Also more on materials by Harold Hale
ttd073 - cratering equation
ttd083 - interesting notes on comms bandwidth
ttd085 - energy weapons errata for FF&S2 and more on comms, lasers
- - revised ttd088
ttd086 - problems with aircraft engines  ; RW values in ttd087
ttd095 - Bruce's damage system
ttd096 - mesons and sand debugged
ttd099 - fully independent missile rules
ttd107 - human acceleration tolerances from 3/98 Analog magazine
 (Leonard Erickson)
ttd124 : DSR and astronomy - spotting natural objects
ttd125 - more on DSR and astronomy
ttd131-2 : BMac's combat sys v1.0
ttd142-146 : further tweaking ; sorting point defence ; CUSP
ttd149 - nuclear blasts in space
ttd156 - antiparticle accelerators
ttd157 - candidate radiator materials
ttd163 - problems with fusion+
ttd166 - Bruce Mac on MFDs
ttd176 - proposed changes to MCS
ttd187 - Harold Hale's alternate material list
ttd197 - Charles Hensley's electric motors <- Bruce Johnson posted these
ttd337 - missile rules
ttd357 - nuclear pulse propulsion (v1.0)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:30:59 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

WARNING : More about the @#$^&^ vehicle design system! Ignore at your
leisure....

Over on the HIWG list, David Golden wrote (a little while ago) that he
wanted some input from Marc about an FF&S type book for (the eagerly
awaited) T5.

Activity on that list has slowed to an all-time low.

Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve Jackson
(sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent quality of
'Far Trader' and 'First In') and a software company, what would the
folks of the TML like to see in the book?

Examples :-

* One design 'meta-sequence' for all vehicle types
(ground/water/air/space-grav).
* Quick design sequences a la 'High Guard' for each vehicle type.
* Massaging the rules a little ; if you can't 'build' an RW vehicle with
the system, the system is broken!
* Expand scope of book to cover robots, cybernetics, personal armour,
buildings and infrastructure as well as weapons.
* Provide example designs and standard weapon tables (like MT, 101
Vehicles, etc.).
* Provide conversion tables (Striker/MT/TNE armour ratings ; guidelines
to convert designs to and from GURPS?).
* Include a vehicle combat system (if there isn't one in the core
rules). Bruce Mac's MCS could provide a useful basis for this.
* Incorporate the 'Reliability', 'Ease of Use' and 'Hazard' indices [or
some similar secondary attributes] tentatively introduced in 'Emperor's
Vehicles' to make a pilot/driver's job a little more interesting. ("The
P-15 is an unforgiving piece of machinery, but it's the fastest fighter
around!")

Anyone out there want to constructively add to the wishlist?

Or shall we all go out and buy VDS (which is a great bit of work ; many
thanks to Greg Porter and Phil McGregor!*) and wait for Bruce Mac to
present the 'DDSR' (cheaper sensors, please)?

* check out www.hyperbooks.com for details

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:27:29 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Traveller Meets General Quarters

Shadowcat wrote :-
[interesting 'wilderness refuel' snipped]
> I was wondering how to handle damage if the torpedoes had actually hit.
> 

What rules are you using ?
>From Terry McInne's 'Wet Navy' articles (with slight modification) :-
Torpedoes
Type/TL		Mass	Volume	Price (kCr)	HE	HEAP Range(km)
early steam/4	1400	1.7	10		40/34	N/A	5
lightweight/5	250	0.3	100		48/16	81/12	8
hvywt/7		1600	1.7	250		48/40	297/28	20
super hvy/8	2500	3.8	500		192/60	543/34	50

Mass is in kg, volume m3, HE and HEAP penetration/damage.
Penetration is in FF&S2 armour points ; divide by 1.43 to get FF&S1
penetration ; divide by 2.86 to get cm steel for conversion to
MT/Striker (IIRC, AV 40 = 33 cm steel = FF&S1 66, FF&S2 94)

Looking at the table above, a standard Free Trader would suffer a hull
breach only with the heavier ordnance - which your attack subs sound
like they would be packing.

Alternatively, resolve as a 300kg shaped charge slapped against the
hull.

Effects range from a sinking spaceship to an exploding one (as all that
liquid hydrogen quickly exits the fuel tank and smells the air...)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:27:34 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : signal enhancers for FF&S2/DSR

Merry Easter (just under three weeks until the Easter Bilby), Bruce Mac!

You wrote :-
> I don't have FFS2 handy - could someone tell me how much radiator area and
> price you need per MW at TL12?]

Fusion plants need 0.01 m2/MW, fuel cells and Fusion+ 1m2/MW. Price
appears to be 1MCr/m2 (based on cost of thermal masking).

> 
> 
> [Missing are rules for AEMS and LIDARs - any volunteers?]
> 

?how the enhancers perform vs AEMS/LIDAR
?countermeasures for same

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:47:38 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Muscle Power : some handy numbers

Oh fig!
I wrote :-
> References
> Cycling Science : author, publisher Chapters 1 and 2.
> MT Player's Manual. 
> 

Gahhh.... I should write the relevant details of the books somewhere I
won't lose it....

[Chagrined]

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 23:49:28 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Current space medicine research

Bryan Borich wrote :-
>         An interesting site to visit, especially there last two notes (ongoing
> medical research in space):
> 

http://www.nsbri.org/research/newresearch.html

(The National Space Biomedical Research Institute, a NASA affiliate)

Agreed. (Bryan refers to radiobiology and 'gadgets' in the above
quote):-
> The projects planned for the first year of operation include
>development of (a) a dual-energy x-ray device to measure
>bone loss and changes in body muscle and fat composition,
>and to provide x-ray images for diagnostic purposes when
>necessary;

An optimised CT scanner/X-ray for spaceflight. Dual-energy X-ray
absorptiometry (DEXA, natch) is used to assess bone mineral density
(femoral and humeral neck) in the management of osteoporosis.

>(b) a non-invasive and easy-to-use closed loop
>control system to monitor the effects of space travel on the
>complex performance of the cardiovascular system;

Intriguing.
Determinants of cardiac output are heart rate (autonomic nervous system
tone key controller) and stroke volume (preload [filling pressure],
afterload [peripheral vascular resistance], myocardial contractility
[measurement of which is of ongoing controversy in physiological circles
currently] ).

ECG/EKG + ultrasound (Doppler and B-mode) to measure aortic size and
flows ; blood pressure measurement, probably with a DINAMAP (TM) or
similar device.

>(c) a miniature portable mass spectrometer to identify the
>constituents of air samples to ensure a healthy spacecraft
>environment, and to evaluate samples of body fluids for
>physiological research and medical care; and

Cool device, much more flexible than antibody based 'noses' currently
under development.

> (d) a portable neutron spectrometer that will quantify the levels of >neutron radiation to which crew members inside a space vehicle may
>be exposed, and to detect regions of high radiation intensity. 

More robust than a Geiger counter.

ObTrav <g> : do you take a californium slug along to calibrate the
neutron spectrometer?

Sorry for the logorrhoea,
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:21:28 -0600
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Free Trader Beowulf Page is Moving

due to my ISP changing hands, and the new management doing their best to
ruin it,
I am moving the Free Trader Beowulf page.

The new URL is as follows 

http://www.advancenet.net/~meow/trav2.html

I have some Striker stuff on my Traveller Pages, but not a lot
and I am in the process of switching servers entirely
Once the switch is made I will be adding a bunch of stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:56:18 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/13/99 5:36:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 

 * Quick design sequences a la 'High Guard' for each vehicle type.
  * Provide example designs and standard weapon tables (like MT, 101
 Vehicles, etc.).
 * Provide conversion tables (Striker/MT/TNE armour ratings ; guidelines
 to convert designs to and from GURPS?).
 * Include a vehicle combat system (if there isn't one in the core
 rules). Bruce Mac's MCS could provide a useful basis for this.
  >>

	I would really, really want to see a Quick Vehicle Design system and a set of
Standard weapons.	Bascially, If I need some TL-9 Hover tanks with laser
cannons for next week's game, I want to be able to whip them up in a short
order.  
	

	As to a vehicle combat system, I want to repeat my fondest wish:  A seamless
way to integrate Starships and Starship weaponry into planetary actions.
Think it is only fitting that if I need to know how a combat between
atmospheric fighters and a laser-armed Free Trader turns out, it should be
clearly set up in the rules, without a struggle.

	Armor conversions for Striker. MT would be a nice bonus, since there are so
many vehicle designs already out there, a quick conversion system would be a
great time-saver for actual game play.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:34:51 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Starport Component List

Hey all, thanks for the replies.  It's given me a vector.
As a result, I've updated my starport paper.  I won't
post it because it's longer and has paragraphs... The
new-and-improved version is here:

http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/StarportModuleCatalog.html

Please check it out if you're interested in critiquing it again!
Shouldn't take but 10 minutes to look over.

Thanks,
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:32:22 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits

<sigh>

First, my credentials: I have a degree in mathematics, physics, and
astronomy. I have 9 semester hours in specialized celetial mechanics and
geodesy courses. I am a rated commercial instrument pilot. I also have 2
years prior experience with the Space Sensing Branch, Space Sciences
Division, US Naval Research Laboratory.

>> (1) Again, this is not 2D surface navigation: you cannot simply "fly to" a
>> satellite and park behind it. If you have to calculate your orbit anyway,
>> what it the value of the satellite?
>
>It establishes that *this* is where *you* are supposed to be parked,
>and over *there* is where some other ship is supposed to be parked. And
>you *don't* have to calculate an orbit. _You_merely_have_to_match_
>velocities_ and move around the satellite until the docking light is
>centered 
[emphasis mine]

How do you know that your velocities match, if you didn't calculate the
orbits? Orbital velocity is a non-linear function of time in three
dimensions. What you suggest requires calculating the orbit of the
satellite, and your own orbit, and making the appropriate corrections to
bring them into alignment.

>Sorry, but you have been reading overly simplified descriptions. The
>*general* three body solution (ie you start with any three bodies, of
>any masses, in any position, with any velocities) is what is generally
>called "insoluble". There *is* a solution. But it involves a converging
>series that converges too slowly to be *practical*. 
>

Fundamentals of Astrodynamics, Bate, Mueller, and White -- which is still
the standard introductory text on celestial mechanics, even at the graduate
level -- p. 9:

"[The n-body equation] is a second order, nonlinear, vector, differential
equation of motion _which_has_defied_solution_ in its present form."
[emphasis mine]

Solving an n-body problem requires 6n integrals: 3 each of position and
motion for every body. But only 10 integrals can be obtained from the
general equation of motion. Thus 2-body problems can be solved
analytically, but 3-body solutions require restrictions (co-planar, etc.)
before they become solvable.

The "solutions" to which you refer are numerical integrations,
approximations run by iteration on fast computers. I grant you the better
the computer, the better the approximation.

>There are *lots* of solutions to *specific* three body problems. For
>example, the so-called "trojan points" are a solution. There are just
>limits on the positions velocities and masses for which the solution
>applies. 
>

True, but irrelevant unless all your parking slots are constrained to one
of these special cases.

>Heck, they assign orbital "slots" to geosynchronous satellites right
>now, to avoid problems with collisions, and interference. 
>
>For objects of insignificant mass orbiting a *massive* object such as a
>planet, you can get solutions that are good for *years* using fairly
>simple programs.
>
>Heck, by your logic commsats don't work!
>

"Resonant effects can be significant. For a satellite of 800 km altitude,
over a 2-10 day period, resonant effects can alter the along track position
of the satellite by 500 meters. In general, about 80% of a resonant effect
is along track, about 5% radially, and 15% across track." Introduction to
Satellite Geodesy and Orbital Analysis, Alexander and Schanzle, p. 99.

In point of fact, gravitational anomolies on the order exhibited by the
earth cause geosynchronous satellites to librate 180 degrees through their
orbit over a fairly short period of time -- up to 10 km per day! These
satellites have to *maneuver* constantly to maintain their position:

"Current [geosynchronous] satellites are provided with enough fuel to last
7 years. This will probably be extended to 10 years, since the electronics
of the satellites are lasting that long. When fuel becomes low, inclination
corrections are abandoned and the inclination of the satellites drifts
about 0.8 degrees/year. Use of these satellites is then sold at a cheaper
rate. Earlier on, satellites, when they ran out of fuel, were left to
librate, but now, if possible, they are kicked into a higher orbit to
decrease the probability of collision." Ibid., p. 105.

>> (4) How many of these things should one expect to see in orbit? Hundreds?
>> At what point do they become a hazard to navigation all out of proportion
>> to their usefulness? Plan a large enough margin of error (10 km? 100 km?)
>> between on-orbit parking assignments and there is no need for the
>> additional clutter.
>
>Get real. You aren't grasping the *scale* involved. To become hazards
>you'd not only need *millions* of them, you'd have to have them in all
>sorts of orbits. 
>

I am quite serious. By definition, these objects inhabit the very orbits
and tracks where most of your commercial space traffic takes place. How
much time, computationally, is required to _ensure_ that any particular
ship's orbit will not intersect one of them? Remember, the orbits are not
deterministic and they change with time. The pilot may not care ("big sky,
little bullet"), but I assure you his insurance underwriter does. Notice
the reference to "the probability of collision" in the quotation above?

It is certainly possible, but it is wasteful and an unnecessary risk.

>So what if the distance between them varies from 10 to 1000 meters.
>Given that (for example) geosynch orbit has a length of over 230,000
>km, you could park ships 10 km apart and have 23,000 of them parked. 
>
>Obviously, all parking orbits need to be at the same inclination (and
>probably circular), but if you get really strapped for space, you start
>assigning with differing radii. 
>
>To hold a million ships, you only need 40 orbits with 25,000 slots each
>or 50 with 20,000 slots each. Assume the radii are set every 100 km or
>so, that has the ships spread out in an annulus 5000 km "across". But
>there's still *plenty* of space for traffic.
>

Thank you, you've just made my point very nicely: if there is so much room,
who needs the additional clutter and expense of "parking" satellites? Just
assign my unique orbital elements (which you would have to do anyway, to
tell me where to find my "parking" satellite) and let me obtain that orbit
and sit there, without having to worry about my position relative to some
satellite. My orbit may be slightly perturbed by gravitational anomolies
and n-body effects, but there is (now) nothing within the magnitude of that
error to hit.

Lastly, consider that someone has to place, maintain, and recover the
things; someone also has to pay for this activity. A significant fraction
of the time and manpower of US Coast Guard and Federal Aviation
Administration are devoted to the maintenance of navigational markers.

To summarize: "parking" satellites would be an unnecessary, redundant and
expensive source of information better obtained elsewhere, and a potential
hazard to navigation. Hence, I find them unlikely.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:06:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)

In mail you write:

> At 01:25 am 3/12/99 PST, you wrote:
>>Sooner or later a crew the right age will be able to capture a Pak
> ship
>>intact. Capturing the pilot alive is a bonus, but not needed.=20
>>
>>Now you've got Solomani/Vilani/Zhodani/Whatever Protectors. And the
>>whole equation changes. Once humaniti has tree-of-life, the Pak are
>>doomed unless the human Protectors have a reason to keep them alive.
>>
>>For a special nightmare have the capture involve a ship crewed by
>>members of Famile Spofulam. Given their attitudes, I can easily see
>>them deciding to let whatever is going on with the affected crew
>>members run its course.=20
>
> If I recall the stories, protectors perceive their bloodlines fairly
> narrowly ... only their _own_ offspring (and maybe close relatives)
> "smell" right. That's why most protectors simply stop living if their
> bloodlines are destroyed. No revenge, no struggle, they just ...
> stop. And it's not conscious choice, it's wired in. Only a *very* few
> ever "adopt" the entire race.

> Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
> Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
> almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
> someone to threaten her family ...

Ditzie isn't old enough. You have to be around 30 for Tree-of-life to
affect you, and past 40, it'll kill you.

> Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
> bloodline ... and therefore a threat.

Ah! But she'll have memories from before the change. Therefore she'll
still likely see us as prey^H^H^H^Hcustomers.

> Will the rest of FS unite to save humaniti from one of their own ...
> or join her?

It could be worse. It could be the Sayat...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:12:21 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

|Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve Jackson
|(sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent quality of
|'Far Trader' and 'First In')

Actually, Loren mentioned at a recent chat session on Pyramid, that the
success of GURPS Traveller is allowing Marc more time to develop T5.  And I
don't detect any interest from either side for having SJG publish anything
other than GT.




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:11:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: for your interest

On 09 Mar, Samir <samir@chisp.net> wrote:
> I just got this email from a scifi mag I subscribe too...

> Rowen Atkinson of Black adder and Mr. Bean, is going to do a
> Dr. Who parody.
> any ideas from the gallery on what he do? Can you imagine what he
> would do?
> What black self interest deals would he contrive with the daleks?

Add to the humour, whilst looking like Paul McGann.

Save the daleks from extinction.

Explore the question of what happens in the face of certain doom,
you go back in time and change history.

There's also the bit at the end when The Master gets The Doctor.
Or vice versa, depending on your point of view.

Yep, I don't think that gives the plot away:-)

The only thing it really needed was Baldrick as the companion.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:16:21 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Dave Biggs wrote:

>You may have 2 separate surface actions mingled.  The Brits didn't lose a
>cruiser, the Arger's lost one to a torp. The Brits lost the HMS Sheffield,
>a guided missile frigate to an Exocet.  (BTW as an interesting tid-bit of
>information the cruiser, the name escapes me, was the last major ship still
>on active service that was at Pearl when the Jap's attacked.  We sold it
>the Argentina in the late 60's it think.)


HMS Sheffield was a Type 42 Destroyer.

The ARA General Belgrano was the ex-USS Phoenix. There's a pretty good
picture of her steaming out of Pearl just after the attack.

>Well the sinking can be attributed to cost savings measures by the British
>navy.  The ship was a frigate and some years back the Brits started making
>their guided missile FG's out of high-tech aluminum alloy.  It was lighter,
>very hard, resistant to the corrosion of saltwater and to barnacles so it
>saved tons of money on maintenance.  As an added plus when decommissioned
>it brought top dollars as scrap.  The drawback became painfully clear when
>the missile hit.  The Exocet has a shaped charge so it penetrated the hull
>like hot butter then exploded inside to cause max damage.  The fires were
>so intense that the aluminum hull began to melt and burn at a much lower
>temp then a steel alloy hull would, the fumes were toxic which hampered
>fire fighting efforts.  Now I can't remember exactly but I don't think the
>Exocet sank the Sheffield but instead it was abandoned and the Royal navy
>scuttled her either with torps or surface fire, though I'm pretty sure it
>was a torp below the waterline, quick and clean with less moral problems
>then associated with watching the ship get torn apart by surface guns.

No no no. HMS Sheffield was a Type 42 Destroyer, with a steel hull and
superstructure. The hull did not melt when the exocet hit - the damage
was extensive because:

(a) The hit ignited the oil fries in the galley.
(b) The detonation knocked out both DC firemains - no water to put the
fire out
(c) The detonation knocked out one of the DC control rooms.

The toxic fumes you mention were from PVC-insulated electrical systems,
not burning metal. We now use non-toxic insulation.

HMS Sheffield was taken under tow, but the tow parted at night in foul
weather and she sank.

ObTrav: Any cases of *old* historical warships being given to colonial
fleets, and then destroyed years later by an ally of the donating power?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:20:03 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/13/99 2:36:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve Jackson
 (sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent quality of
 'Far Trader' and 'First In') >>

what's wrong with this as long as Marc does the design work and Steve just
prints it verbatim?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:16:36 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/13/99 1:16:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< the Mo's guns
 would only make two neat 40.6cm holes in the hull.
  >>

correct for AP and also for SAP (which she doesn't carry...). HE or Com (don't
remember which she carries) are designed and fused for contact explosions.
When they hit an unarmored target, they go boom IMMEDIATELY (when really
almost immediately, as momentum of 2700'/second is enough to insure that the
shell is INSIDE the hull when it goes boom). No doubt the physicists on the
list can explain this better than me...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:27:52 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/13/99 9:18:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
swordworlder@clinic.net writes:

<< 
 Actually, Loren mentioned at a recent chat session on Pyramid, that the
 success of GURPS Traveller is allowing Marc more time to develop T5.  And I
 don't detect any interest from either side for having SJG publish anything
 other than GT.
  >>

This confirms a hunch I had that SJ wouldn't want to publish T5 as it might
compete with GURPS Traveller sales. It's a pity though as they are a natural
match. SJG is one of the few companies that could do a good job of publishing
T5, unlike IG...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:30:35 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Wankel engines

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote
>Another technology I wish I knew what happened to was the Wankel...I 
>know Mazda had huge problems with their first generation, but they 
>cleared the bugs out, because IIRC the RX-7 still uses it. (I saw a 
>hot-rod project a while back...dropping a RX-7 engine into a Miata. 

The new (a couple of years old) class of Swedish submarine uses the 
Wankel engine. IIRC a Swedish company built the engine but I can't 
remember which one. It was supposed to be _really silent_ compered with 
a Diesel as the Wankel design doesn't vibrate much. So the Wankel is 
alive (almost).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:55:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/13/99 10:20:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< No no no. HMS Sheffield was a Type 42 Destroyer, with a steel hull and
 superstructure. The hull did not melt when the exocet hit - the damage
 was extensive because:
 
 (a) The hit ignited the oil fries in the galley.
 (b) The detonation knocked out both DC firemains - no water to put the
 fire out
 (c) The detonation knocked out one of the DC control rooms.
  >>

That gibes with what I heard. I still sense some design flaws in the ship. By
this description, it sounds like the design didn't have enough combat
redundancy in her DC equipment, though the hit location sounds like bad luck
as well. I also vaguely read somplace that she lacked a close in weapon system
and ECM suite, so the missile couldn't by shot down/jammed. Lastly I heard
that the missile was picked up very late on radar (last 30-40 seconds of
flight?), which if true makes me wonder about her sensor suite.

To be fair; I also heard that these flaws were redressed after the war. The
vessels gained ECM, and a close in weapon system (either CIWS or Goalkeeper; I
can't remember...), and the RN adopted an AEW helo, and better fighter
director and control precedures, so they wouldn't have to leave lone ships on
radar picket. It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal. Her
Phantoms and AEW craft would have NEVER let the Argentinians got close enough
for an Exocet shot in the first place...

I am concerned that the new supersonic seaskimming missiles can not be shot
down by rotary cannon anymore. I hope that a new system in the works to
replace CIWS and Goalkeeper...

Ob Trav: HG and TCS maybe?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #279
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 13 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 280



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
T5 and SJG
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Spofulum Protectors
Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Spofulum Protectors
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: FFS addons
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:08:55 -0500, you wrote:
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
The age of starships
Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:47:12 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>(a) The hit ignited the oil fries in the galley.

"Oil fries"? Those are the new french fries Burger King sells, right? HMS
Sheffield must have stopped for 100 orders of take-out before the battle.
No wonder the ship went up in a fireball...

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:46:40 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: T5 and SJG

    I don't think Steve Jackson Games would publish Traveller 5 anyway, even
if Loren hadn't made those comments. They have the GURPS system and don't
seem to want to publish other RPG systems; they did do In Nomine, but that
hasn't worked out that well (so I'm told), and they thinking of doing a
GURPS version of it. (It sells well, just not REALLY well, so I have been
told.) Also, there is some pride going here; I don't think Marc is just
going to throw Traveller at someone and say "here, you do it." My
understanding is that was not what was supposed to happen with T4, and I
don't think he'll let it happen again. Marc wants HIS version of Traveller
out there, because HE created it. and well he should. Yes, there are things
I'd do differently, but even so, what I have seen of T5 is quite good, and I
will very likely buy it.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:05:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/13/99 1:25:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@AOL.COM writes:

<< 
 << Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve Jackson
  (sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent quality of
  'Far Trader' and 'First In') >>
 
 what's wrong with this as long as Marc does the design work and Steve just
 prints it verbatim?
  >>

	It actually sounds good, since there would be more incentive to include T5
stats in GURPS Trav supplements, increasing their value for T5 players

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:14:52 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Rob wrote;

<<SNIP>>
>Does this mean that my kids are downloading pireated software when they
>run Quake on the school computers?  Would the company that makes Quake be
>interested in sueign the school board for this?  (Maybe this would finally
>force the IT chaps to remove their heads from their rectal orifices and do
>something about the network.)
<<UNSNIP>>


We have an SGI Origin/CRAY 128 at work, which came with Quake on the Ops
Console.  Just the thing for a tired SysOps after *another* User deletes his
files...


Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:16:58 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
> Date: Saturday, 13 March, 1999 1:55 PM
> 
[snip]
> That gibes with what I heard. I still sense some design flaws in the
ship. By
> this description, it sounds like the design didn't have enough combat
> redundancy in her DC equipment, 

Absolutely.  The RN has radically redesigned fire-fighting arrangements in
later designs, going to two isolated fire mains that remain wet at all
times and making lots of other changes in hardware and training.  

though the hit location sounds like bad luck
> as well. I also vaguely read somplace that she lacked a close in weapon
system
> and ECM suite, so the missile couldn't by shot down/jammed. Lastly I
heard
> that the missile was picked up very late on radar (last 30-40 seconds of
> flight?), which if true makes me wonder about her sensor suite.

Her radar was not working for reasons that have never been made clear,
possibly to do with operating her satellite com system, but probably not.. 
There's also a sense that her combat information center (I forget the RN
term) was not very alert.  For some reason, Sheffield did not react to the
alert call from another ship in the picket screen which would have given
then enough warning to at least fire chaff.  

> To be fair; I also heard that these flaws were redressed after the war.
The
> vessels gained ECM, and a close in weapon system (either CIWS or
Goalkeeper; I can't remember...),

Just a nit: CIWS is a generic term for a close-in weapon system, the US
system is Phalanx, and that's that the Type 42s got.

[snip]
> I am concerned that the new supersonic seaskimming missiles can not be
shot
> down by rotary cannon anymore. I hope that a new system in the works to
> replace CIWS and Goalkeeper...

For the RN, SeaWolf  is close to being a point-defense weapon and a
missile-based system has been considered for future ships.  For the US
Navy, Rolling Airframe Missile is replacing Phalanx .  It pushes engagement
ranges out significantly, which should help a lot with the supersonic
sea-skimmer threat.  

 
> Ob Trav: HG and TCS maybe?

In GT at least, some folks have been talking about developing ship-killing 
bomb-pumped x-ray laser missiles.  Classical laser/sandcaster point defense
won't cut it against these monsters, so you might need anti-missile
missiles.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:25:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers

Robert, this looks really great -- I'll definitely try using it in a
design or two soon.

Can you tell me (or estimate) how much wattage a hamster-type critter
running in one of those wheels might generate?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:23:48 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TravQuake (was re: Deckplans 3D - VRML)

Walt wrote...

<<SNIP>>
>Quit it - you're making me salivate on my keyboard. <g>
>
>NetQuake, a dozen people or so playing "Great Wine Heist" on a
>1st-person shooter computer game all over an AHL...
>
>Walt Smith
<<UNSNIP>>

Does anyone else remember the LaserQuest game?  The one where you run around
a CO2 and flashing-light filled 'arena' with a pack strapped on chest and
back, blasting away with low-powered (rats!;) visible-beam lasers aiming at
sensor pads on fore-and-aft, shoulders and gun?  Also known as Quazer(?)
over here in Dear Ole' Blighty, and jolly hockeysticks it was too...

And I *used to be* quite good at it, as well.

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 14:38:14 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

On 03/13/99 at 10:12 PM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>>Mere popguns! While I wouldn't want to be under fire from one, a 5"
>>naval gun is about the _smallest_ in use on large ships. They're useful
>>against small craft, but for something the sze of a tanker you'll need
>>something bigger to actually sink it. I'd like to have seen what the
>>Mo's 16 inchers would do to it..."ship? WHAT ship?"

>Common misconception. Because large shells do so much damage to large
>amoured targets, people assume that they will do similar damage to
>small unarmoured vessels. However the truth is that, unless they hit
>something with significant resistance (like an engine), the Mo's guns
>would only make two neat 40.6cm holes in the hull.

<grin> Yeah, I guess so..with armor piercing shells, but didn't Mo
also have HE shells?  That much HE going off somewhere between the
entry and exit holes would be...um...explosive. <grin>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 15:08:44 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

On 03/13/99 at 09:30 PM,  "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> said:

>WARNING : More about the @#$^&^ vehicle design system! Ignore at your
>leisure....

>Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve
>Jackson (sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent
>quality of 'Far Trader' and 'First In') and a software company, what
>would the folks of the TML like to see in the book?

Loren, didn't indicate that was being considered during the recent
online chat he held.  He did indicate that he thought Marc was using
the strong sales of GT material to take time to tweek, doublecheck
and playtest T5.

All IMO...

>Examples :-

>* One design 'meta-sequence' for all vehicle types
>(ground/water/air/space-grav).

This has always been an important goal.

>* Quick design sequences a la 'High Guard' for each vehicle type. 

A la QDSS and the GT modules.  I've never understood the reverance
some of you have for HG, either tactically or as a design system.

>* Massaging the rules a little ; if you can't 'build' an RW vehicle
>  with the system, the system is broken!

You'll never get a usable system that handles *all* RW vehicles, but
I think we could do better.

>* Expand scope of book to cover robots, cybernetics, personal
   armour, buildings and infrastructure as well as weapons.

OT: So, why is it armour and not robouts? ;p 

Probably should, for space reasons either won't or compromises will
be made. You are getting into two or three book content here.

>* Provide example designs and standard weapon tables (like MT, 101
>Vehicles, etc.).

Certainly.

>* Provide conversion tables (Striker/MT/TNE armour ratings ;
>guidelines to convert designs to and from GURPS?).

Yes, but while you're at it, why not G^3 as well?

>* Include a vehicle combat system (if there isn't one in the core
>rules). Bruce Mac's MCS could provide a useful basis for this. 

Could it?  Ok, all you wargame grognards, those of us that
*roleplay* want a *roleplaying* vehicle combat system.  You can have
yours only if we get ours. ;p

>*Incorporate the 'Reliability', 'Ease of Use' and 'Hazard' indices
>[or some similar secondary attributes] tentatively introduced in
>'Emperor's Vehicles' to make a pilot/driver's job a little more
>interesting.  ("The P-15 is an unforgiving piece of machinery, but
>it's the fastest fighter around!")

Introduced in G^3, VDS, and G:V2.  I wouldn't bring "Emperor's
Vehicles" up if I were you.

>Anyone out there want to constructively add to the wishlist?

Alternative Technologies!!!

I'm still waiting for Ether Propellers, Stutterwarp, Tachyon Drives
and weapons, etc.  I want technology effects that affect technology
choices, ie. if a society choses X, it degrades it's ability to use
Y; (ex:  you can have anti-grav, but it creates fields that shorten
the MTBF for electronics making all electronic tech more expensive,
larger, and heavier); or if it discovers A, it becomes unlikely it
will discover Z ( ex:  at TL3 a society discovers how to make
something like "cold fusion" actually work, so what technologies are
*not* researched and developed and which ones are).

>Or shall we all go out and buy VDS (which is a great bit of work ;
>many thanks to Greg Porter and Phil McGregor!*) and wait for Bruce
>Mac to present the 'DDSR' (cheaper sensors, please)?

Ok, VDS is good and so is G:V2, but neither "get's there" for me.
Either of the FFS's come closer.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:13:34 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulum Protectors

"David J. Golden" wrote:

> Now take someone as deranged ... I mean as creative as
> Ditzieeeeeeeeeeee, triple her already astronomical IQ, make her
> almost as physically durable as a battle-dressed Marine, and wait for
> someone to threaten her family ...

Remember that for Tree of Life Virus to work on you, you have to be the
right age, which is about 42 (coincidence?).  It was my impression that
Ditzie was somewhat younger than this.  If you are too young the smell
does not compel you too eat it as you are supposed to be breeding.  If
you are too old it will not work, although it will probably kill you. 
If your system has lots of drugs in it (and I suspect that most FS
members systems do) the tree of life will not work.  Remember that tree
of life did nothing for Louis Wu because he was 300 years old and had
been on anagathics for centuries.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:29:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Spofulam Protectors (was Re: Pak Protectors)

On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Guess what ... most of us will be COMPETING with Ditzieeeeeeeeeee's
> > bloodline ... and therefore a threat.
> 
> Ah! But she'll have memories from before the change. Therefore she'll
> still likely see us as prey^H^H^H^Hcustomers.

So in other words, everything will be pretty much just like before? :)

> It could be worse. It could be the Sayat...

I was thinking, as this thread was slipping by, that these Pak critters
sound a lot like the Sayat already.  Of course, the Sayat don't make that
inefficient and antisocial distinction that the Pak do between
"protectors" and "breeders", nor are they slaves to the knee-jerk
biological determinism of these unfortunate semipeople.  Proper education
and gene therapy should allow them to become exciting & rewarding new
members of the Concourse, I suppose.  

I still get giggles every once in a while thinking what an Alien raised by
Sayat would be like.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:41:54 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

There are a few simple things that I would like to see in any FFS type
supplement:

All tables should be designed to cover a specific minimum range.  For
example, all tables that include Tech Levels should at least cover TL 12,
13, 14, and 15 without skipping levels.  Some tables, such as Materials,
would obviously cover a greater range of TLs.  It's frustrating when one
table has TL 9, 11, 13, 15 and the next has TL 10, 12, 14, 16.  Yes, the
intermediate values can be calculated, but for those of us who a) are
mathematically dis-inclined b) neophyte designers c) use the materials only
occasionally or d) all of the above, every little bit helps.

It's also good to include any pertinant "rules of thumb" for design
criteria.  (Minimum armor requirements, what an "average" military armor
level might be.  Anything to point a neophyte in the right direction.)  I
guess I'm trying to point out that some of the readers, such as myself,
don't have doctorate degrees in Traveller Canon and Philosophies ;)


Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:44:02 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulum Protectors

> If your system has lots of drugs in it (and I suspect that most FS
> members systems do) the tree of life will not work.  Remember that tree
> of life did nothing for Louis Wu because he was 300 years old and had
> been on anagathics for centuries.

I don't believe that's right.  IIRC, in Ringworld Engineers he describes
ignoring the smell of Tree of Life as one of the hardest things he's ever
done, something that only a reformed wirehead *could* have done. 

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:57:07 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

The only thing that most civilian ships have going for them,
warefare wise, is that they can take a lot of damage....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:51:44 -0600
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

Robert O'Connor
>
>Over on the HIWG list, David Golden wrote (a little while ago) that he
>wanted some input from Marc about an FF&S type book for (the eagerly
>awaited) T5.
<snip>
>Anyone out there want to constructively add to the wishlist?

Other than everything you've already listed, I'd like to see
a design system which supports a single, scalable combat
system covering everything from a knife fight to fleet
combat. Example: Assuming 15th century steel plate armor
has a defensive of 12, any ship with a hull rating of 12
is made of the equivalent of 15th century steel plate armor.

I'm *really* tired of separate damage/armor ratings for melee,
vehicle combat, and space combat. The only version of Traveller
that does this is G:T.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:57:48 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FFS addons

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Charles Hensley posted the following:
<snip>
>electric atmospheric propulsion
>
>TL   Type                min vol    KN/       tons/    MCr/       MW/
>                           m^3      m^3        m^3     m^3        m^3
>8   Ducted Fan           .500       3.62      2.50     .015       1.16
>8   Electric Propeller   .005       1.30      1.00     .040        .36
>9   Ducted Fan           .300       6.24      1.75     .030       1.95
>9   Electric Propeller   .005       2.00      1.00     .080        .61
>10  Ducted Fan           .300       6.90      1.60     .025       2.10
>10  Electric Propeller   .005       2.30      1.00     .070        .66
>11  Ducted Fan           .250       7.60      1.50     .020       2.25
>11  Electric Propeller   .005       2.50      1.00     .060        .73
>12  Ducted Fan           .250       8.30      1.33     .015       2.40
>12  Electric Propeller   .005       2.75      1.00     .050        .80
>
>Ducted Fan            Transonic
>Electric Propeller    Fast Subsonic
>
>

This was generated without knowledge of the NASA projects on electric
aircraft, I still have not found information on the motors NASA is using
in these projects.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 23:32:15 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:08:55 -0500, you wrote:

On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:08:55 -0500, you wrote:

>Or shall we all go out and buy VDS (which is a great bit of work ; many
>thanks to Greg Porter and Phil McGregor!*) and wait for Bruce Mac to
>present the 'DDSR' (cheaper sensors, please)?
>
>* check out www.hyperbooks.com for details
>
>Robert O'Connor
>Medico, Gamer

As much as I'd *like* to take credit for VDS, all I did was to point out some
areas of inconsistency in the first (PDF) version of the rules to Greg ... so he
kindly listed me as one of the playtesters.

*GREG* should receive all the kudos, as he did a *top rate* job ... a Vehicle
Design system that, as far as I can tell (I haven't designed esoterica such as
Attack Helos, where there are, evidently, some minor problems according to the
CORPS Player List) gives as close to 100% accuracy when designing real world
vehicles as is humanly possible ... and which gives results for extrapolated
vehicles of the present, near future, and far future, that are at least as
believable!

Phil
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au | www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm
                 | mcgregor@locs.org (emergencies only!!)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now available from www.hyperbooks.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU); Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 99 17:29:32 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

On 03/13/99 at 04:51 PM,  David Smart <warlock@imagin.net> said:

>I'm *really* tired of separate damage/armor ratings for melee,
>vehicle combat, and space combat. The only version of Traveller that
>does this is G:T.

I agree.  I wouldn't have a real problem *with* the GURPS scale.
Hard steel armor in GURPS is *roughly* 10 times the equal thickness
of Traveller-FFS hard steel armor, and the weapons end up doing
proportionally more damage.  (Actually, I think it's closer to 12
times, but it's close to 10. ;)

If we are going to have a successful line of GT books *and* a line
of T5 books out there.  Wouldn't it make sense for the two sets to
be as interchangable as possible?

I think it would make sense to rescale Traveller materials and
weapons to either match or to be exactly 1/10th those in GURPS for
ease of conversion.

IMO,

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:51:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: The age of starships

ONe thing that has come up on occasion is the advanced age that some
starships, particularly, the creaky ol' rustbuckets that PC's get saddled with
(no offense Eris!!! Honest!!!).

I read an news article today that the US Air Force is planning on keeping the
B52 fleet going for another 40 years...thatsa' one tough airplane!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (AP) - The granddaddy of America's bombers, the Vietnam
War-era B-52, is going to have to fly four decades into the new century, the Air
Force says. 

By the time it gives way to a new generation, it will be 80-plus years old. 

Most pilots who fly B-52s today were not yet born when their planes entered
service in the early 1960s. And those same planes will be flying well into the 21st
century with pilots of a generation yet to come. 

That certainly speaks highly of an airplane that already has more than tripled its
original life expectancy. 

``Structurally, they are in great shape,'' Lt. Gen. Ron Marcotte said
yesterday. As
commander of the 8th Air Force at Barksdale Air Force Base, La. - home to 47
B-52s - Marcotte flies the bombers regularly and says that thanks to exceptional
maintenance, the planes are ``doing extremely well.'' 

The first B-52s began their Air Force duty in June 1955; the B-52s now flying
were built in 1961. 

``It's amazing,'' said Glenn Buchan, a Rand Corp. expert on strategic bombers.
``The B-52 is one of the most remarkably successful airplanes ever built.'' 

In fact, Buchan said, the B-52 might be the best model on which to develop the
next generation of long-range bombers - a large plane capable of carrying many
different weapons and firing them from a great distance. 

The Air Force is not ready to invest in a new generation of bombers, however.
Over the next decade or so, the Air Force will devote most of its aircraft
development dollars to the F-22 stealth fighter to replace the F-15 Strike Eagle
and the so-called Joint Strike Fighter to replace the F-16 Fighting Falcon. 

``Preserve what we have'' in bombers, is the way Air Force Secretary F. Whitten
Peters described the strategy yesterday. He and Gen. Michael Ryan, the Air
Force chief of staff, briefed reporters on a congressionally mandated ``white
paper'' on the future of the long-range bomber fleet. 

The upshot is that the B-52, along with the younger B-1B Lancer and the new
stealthy B-2 Spirit, will be kept around until approximately 2037, by which time
the Air Force calculates that attrition will have reduced the fleet below the
minimum 170 aircraft. The B-52s may fly to 2045. Planning for a replacement
bomber might start in 2013. 

There currently are 190 long-range bombers in the active fleet: 93 B-1s, 76 B-52s
and 21 B-2s. Only 130 of those planes are fully combat ready, however. The rest
are in various states of back-up readiness. 

Known officially as the Stratofortress, the B-52's crews affectionately call
it the
BUFF (Big Ugly Fat Fellow). Its wingspan of 185 feet makes it wider than it is long
(159 feet), and it stands 40 feet high. With eight turbofan jet engines, it
can carry
70,000 pounds of bombs, missiles and other weapons and fly 8,800 miles before
refueling. 

The H model of the B-52 rolled off the Boeing Co. assembly lines at a cost of $9
million per plane, and the first one entered service May 9, 1961, with the 379th
Bomb Wing at Wurtsmith Air Force Base, Mich. Even taking decades of inflation
into account, that is a far cry from the $2 billion it cost to field the B-2.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:50:35 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense

OK. Ditzie is confused and upset.

We've got the Famile Spofulam TL9 150 mm gun built, and she's reasonably
happy with it.

However, what is getting her really pissed off is the FS 120 mm Rapid Fire
Mass Driver, specifically the fact that the 120 mm HEAP warhead appears to
have a pentration value of about 500.

Can someone please calculate the DV of a 120 mm and a 150 mm HEAP round at
TL9 ?

OK. The FS 150 mm HVAP Smoothbore Gun. 

Consisting of a 9m long barrel, an autloader for the 50kg SEFOP
electro-thermal shells, an imaging radar for fire control and full
stabilisation, the FS 150mm is able to throw a shell every 70 seconds for a
power demand of 50 kilowatts.

The shells have a short range of 690 meters, for a DV of 202. The
penetration drops off with range, to 187 at Medium, 159 at Long and 103 at
Extreme range (I guess Medium is 1.4km, Long 2.8km and Extreme 5.6 km).

6.3 tons in mass all up and costing KCr 878, a loadout of 20 shells will
result in a total unit of 7.3t and KCr 898.

Note the weapon can be constructed at any TL9 world, so the cost in
Imperial Credits should be substantially lower.

It looks like a decent gun, but I think we need to do some thinking about
point defense - specifically, firing at incoming rounds.


****************************************************************************
******

The first effective point defense systems come in at TL7/8 for defense
against slow missiles. Too big for ground vehicles, they see service on wet
navy vessels.

At about TL9, point defense systems on ground vehicles usher in the end of
the Missile Era, although experiments are conducted with small fusion guns
mounted on drone grav missiles.

At TL10, point defense systems become effective enough to enable
counterfire against solid projectiles.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:21:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Could we get some URL's here?


>>> Any positive feedback or comments would be appreciated.
>
>Nifty stuff.  Throwing some textures on the walls would be good.
>Which tools do you use (if any)?

>Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2 levels.
>And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump in with a minimum
>of hassle.
>
>| Halflife has a much better Traveller look and feel.  I just got it
>| and while Quake is the mother of al 3D shooters, Halflife blows me
>| away.
>|
>| No offense to the Fenris Wolf people, I've never seen their
>| products.  But I dearly wish that Marc had licensed Traveller to
>| one of the major players making these great looking and great
>| playing computer games.

>Ha!  You can always do it yourself.  :-)  The source code for
>Shogo:MAD is freely available.  Great engine, excellent price...

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #280
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 14 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 281



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weather tables
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: FFS addons
Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....
FFS3
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....
Re : Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.
Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.
Re : Informal Poll : FF&S3
My Introduction
Re: Spofulum Protectors
Re: My Introduction
Re: My Introduction
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Modern Weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:24:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Weather tables

Isn't this taken care of in World Builder's Handbook?  So far, I'm finding
it difficult to generate a habitable world.

- --Clif

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:40:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>The one time I played Doom, I got
>motion-sick for a day; not an experience I'll likely want to
>repeat...

That is a known side-effect of Doom.  I never had a problem with it, myself.

But then I never used VR glasses.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:50:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

I wonder if they fixed the Cirrix support for Rainbow 6, yet.  Damn bastards
fail to mention on the box under system requirements that it won't run AT
ALL on a Cirrix 686.

Kinda an important detail that should work its way up from the readme.txt

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:51:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: FFS addons

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BE6D93.54454B00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Someone has discovered the new stationery at hotmail, also.

- --Clif


                             Have anyone expanded FFS2?
           =20
           =20
            =20
   =20


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -------
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BE6D93.54454B00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Someone has discovered the new =
stationery at=20
hotmail, also.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>--Clif</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<TABLE bgColor=3D#ffffff border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 height=3D300 =
width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD background=3Dcid:part_00$6260281$7634e467@hotmail.com=20
            =
width=3D110>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D100%><FONT color=3D#000000=20
            face=3D"Arial, Helvetica">
            <DIV name =3D messagebody>Have anyone expanded=20
            FFS2?<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<HR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A><BR></BODY></HT=
ML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BE6D93.54454B00--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:57:41 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> OK. Ditzie is confused and upset.
> 
> We've got the Famile Spofulam TL9 150 mm gun built, and she's reasonably
> happy with it.
> 
> However, what is getting her really pissed off is the FS 120 mm Rapid Fire
> Mass Driver, specifically the fact that the 120 mm HEAP warhead appears to
> have a pentration value of about 500.

I think I see the problem.  For small arms, the penetration value of
HEAP rounds against armored targets is "the sum of muzzle energy and
explosive energy." [FF&Sv2, pp. 39-40]  However, this does not seem to
apply to large-caliber weapons.  For large- caliber HEAP rounds, the
penetration value is based on the diameter of the round, multiplied by a
TL-dependent modifier [Table 79, pg. 93].  (This constant penetration
value matches the premise in GDW games such as Twilight: 2000 and
Command Decision.  As I am not involved in the design and production of
shaped-charge rounds, I will assume that shaped-charge do, indeed,
display this trait.)  Assuming that the FS 120mm Rapid-Fire Mass Driver
and the FS 150mm CPR gun are both TL9, we get the following penetration
values:

120mm RFMD:	12 x 17.1 = 205.2
150mm CPR:	15 x 17.1 = 256.5

Skimming FF&Sv2, I don't find any stated rounding conventions, so you
may round as you see fit.

I hope that this helps reduce Ditzie's confusion.

> 
> Can someone please calculate the DV of a 120 mm and a 150 mm HEAP round at
> TL9 ?
> 
See above.   (BTW, based on the fact that HEAP-type rounds hit a ceiling
of effectiveness at TL9, I would assume that all TL9 HEAP-type rounds
are actually SeFoP.)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:06:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS3

>* Massaging the rules a little ; if you can't 'build' an RW vehicle with
>the system, the system is broken!

I (sort of) disagree a little. There's a good case to be made,
especially for spacecraft and maybe aircraft, for skipping the low TLs,
at least in the "simplified" sequences. It's enormously hard to get
low TL stuff right (especially spacecraft), because they have razor-
thin performance margins and their capabilities are a strong function
of such things as life support mass or interior structure cost.
The amount of effort that would be spent letting you have a rules set
that can design the space shuttle - which few referees are likely to 
do - could much better be spent playtesting and tweaking the rules
for "real" spaceships.


(And I write that as a man who loves to do TL8-9 spaceship designs - 
but I'm aware that my TL8 aerospaceplane bears no resemblence to
what we can really build, and I'm not too heartbroken about it.)

I mean - yes, get the basics (rocket engine T/W and fuel consumption)
right but don't sweat the fine details.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:21:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>"One of these days Alice,....POW, right in the kisser!"  :P
>
>I never saw the greatness in Doom myself, though later games had more "wow"
>factor.
>
>Jesse
>

I can't understand all of this Doom blasphemy.  : )  What 3-D games had you
played already (other than Wolfenstein 3-D) that satisfied your craving for
first-person shoot 'em up.  The only OTHER one I know of is "Seal Team",
which was based on an idea I submitted to Microprose back in the late 80's
when I had a C128.

(Speaking of which, I need to finish 2 1/2 more years of Vietnam in that
game...)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:37:38 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....

Black ICE wrote:
> 
<<snips own calculations of HEAP-round damage from previous post>>

BTW, how close does my previous post get me to Master Gearhead status? 
;-) 

> 
> --
> ------
> |    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> |JOLT|
> |COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
> |    |
> ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:45:04 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Muscle Power : some handy numbers

Kenji wrote :-
> 
> Can you tell me (or estimate) how much wattage a hamster-type critter
> running in one of those wheels might generate?
> 

I'd actually multiply the values for humans by 1.5 (four legged critters
usually can work harder because diaphragmatic work is reduced - dogs can
run for longer than men because of a sort of 'piston effect' on their
ventilation).

Hamsters, rats , etc. are on the order of 250 to 500g (a morbidly obese
rat weighs just over a kg).

Go for it, Kenji ; I'm keen to see a hamster driven walking starship!
Or is the PGMP-RP (rodent power variant) in the wings?
:-)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:58:29 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.

Ian or Katts wrote :-
> 
> However, what is getting her really pissed off is the FS 120 mm Rapid Fire
> Mass Driver, specifically the fact that the 120 mm HEAP warhead appears to
> have a pentration value of about 500.

Ahh, Ian : you've found the 'maintain compatibility with Striker' bits.
And a pen value of 500 is pretty reasonable for a 12cm diameter armour
piercing round of FS type muzzle energies...

> 
> Can someone please calculate the DV of a 120 mm and a 150 mm HEAP round at
> TL9 ?

120mm HEAP :- Damage = (calibre)^2 X TL ammo fudge / warhead type fudge
= 144 X 0.29 / 1.5 = 27.84 -> 28

Burst radius = sqrt(damage) X weapon fudge/warhead type fudge

= sqrt(28)X 7/2.4 = ~15m

150mm HEAP :- 225 X 0.29/1.5 = 43.5
Burst radius = ~20m

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:07:03 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.

Regarding Ian W's question on ammo :-
I thought that the muzzle energy of the gun determined penetration and
the warhead type determined damage.

The formula :-

effective energy = muzzle energy + ([calibre/2] + TL - 7)^3

is a fudge to enhance penetration for HEAP over 'plain vanilla' KEAP
rounds.

Ian, I assume that in the following quote :-
> The shells have a short range of 690 meters, for a DV of 202. The
> penetration drops off with range, to 187 at Medium, 159 at Long and 103 at
> Extreme range (I guess Medium is 1.4km, Long 2.8km and Extreme 5.6 km).
> 

the initial DV is actually the penetration rating at short range.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:10:55 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Informal Poll : FF&S3

Thanks one and all for your replies so far.
> 
> Loren, didn't indicate that was being considered during the recent
> online chat he held.  He did indicate that he thought Marc was using
> the strong sales of GT material to take time to tweek, doublecheck
> and playtest T5.
> 

Living in the Antipodes with a problematic ISP, I missed this. Thanks
for the info re the LW chat.

Phil McGregor wrote :-
> 
> As much as I'd *like* to take credit for VDS, all I did was to point out some
> areas of inconsistency in the first (PDF) version of the rules to Greg ... so he
> kindly listed me as one of the playtesters.
> 
[other comments snipped]

Agree wholeheartedly with you there, Phil. Thanks for writing in.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:29:38 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: My Introduction

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi,

My name is Shawn Campbell, I am 24 years old, live in Washington State =
and have been playing traveller for 8 years. I write software programs =
(embroidery designs) for commercial embroidery machines. I was on the =
TML once before about a year ago. I play a mixture of CT and MT, mostly =
MT. It's been a little while since I played Traveller last and am just =
recently getting reaquinted with the material. I am also looking for =
players. I've picked up some of the G:T material... but am using it to =
sponge up information only. I look forward to reading and posting on =
this list.

Here's my first questions: Has anyone heard of Rathon (sp) (pronounced =
Wrath - ON) is it trav? from a movie or book? My first trav ref put us =
on Rathon and it was very memorable... I'm not sure if he made it up or =
got it from somewhere. Most of his stuff seemed to come from other =
sources. (Dune, Starship Troopers (the game, not movie) and Blade Runner =
where major inspirations for him) He also had a MegaCorp called Military =
Concepts. I thought it was a great name and wondered if it was original =
or from somewhere else.=20

Thanks,

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net

IMTU tc+ tm+ ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt(-) au st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++) =20


- ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01BE6D98.99150220
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>My name is Shawn Campbell, I am 24 years old, =
live in=20
Washington State and have been playing traveller for 8 years. I write =
software=20
programs (embroidery designs) for commercial embroidery machines. I was =
on the=20
TML once before about a year ago. I play a mixture of CT and MT, mostly =
MT. It's=20
been a little while since I played Traveller last and am just recently =
getting=20
reaquinted with the material. I am also looking for players. I've picked =

up&nbsp;some of the G:T material... but am using it to sponge up =
information=20
only. I look forward to reading and posting on this list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Here's my first questions: Has anyone heard =
of Rathon=20
(sp) (pronounced Wrath - ON) is it trav? from a movie or book? My first =
trav ref=20
put us on Rathon and it was very memorable... I'm not sure if he made it =
up or=20
got it from somewhere. Most of his stuff seemed to come from other =
sources.=20
(Dune, Starship Troopers (the game, not movie) and Blade Runner where =
major=20
inspirations for him) He also had a MegaCorp called Military Concepts. I =
thought=20
it was a great name and wondered if it was original or from somewhere =
else.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Shawn Campbell</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"mailto:electric-stitch@w-link.net">electric-stitch@w-link.net</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>IMTU tc+ tm+ ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt(-) au st+ ls =
pi+ ta=20
he+(++)&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01BE6D98.99150220--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:56:12 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulum Protectors

> "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: 

> > If your system has lots of drugs in it (and I suspect that most FS
> > members systems do) the tree of life will not work.  Remember that 
> > tree of life did nothing for Louis Wu because he was 300 years old 
> > and had been on anagathics for centuries.

> I don't believe that's right.  IIRC, in Ringworld Engineers he 
> describes ignoring the smell of Tree of Life as one of the hardest 
> things he's ever done, something that only a reformed wirehead *could* 
> have done. 

Excuse me if I was unclear.  I meant "did nothing for" as he knew that
it would not have the proper effect on him because of his
age/boosterspice use; not "did nothing for" as did not tempt him.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 00:35:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: My Introduction

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Can't help with the rest of it, but Military Concepts sounds liked he =
farmed off of Robocop's Security Concepts (and all the other _______ =
Concepts sub-divisions).

Jesse DeGraff
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Shawn @ Electric Stitch <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
    To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
    Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 9:41 PM
    Subject: My Introduction
   =20
   =20
    Hi,
    =20
    My name is Shawn Campbell, I am 24 years old, live in Washington =
State and have been playing traveller for 8 years. I write software =
programs (embroidery designs) for commercial embroidery machines. I was =
on the TML once before about a year ago. I play a mixture of CT and MT, =
mostly MT. It's been a little while since I played Traveller last and am =
just recently getting reaquinted with the material. I am also looking =
for players. I've picked up some of the G:T material... but am using it =
to sponge up information only. I look forward to reading and posting on =
this list.
    =20
    Here's my first questions: Has anyone heard of Rathon (sp) =
(pronounced Wrath - ON) is it trav? from a movie or book? My first trav =
ref put us on Rathon and it was very memorable... I'm not sure if he =
made it up or got it from somewhere. Most of his stuff seemed to come =
from other sources. (Dune, Starship Troopers (the game, not movie) and =
Blade Runner where major inspirations for him) He also had a MegaCorp =
called Military Concepts. I thought it was a great name and wondered if =
it was original or from somewhere else.=20
    =20
    Thanks,
   =20
    Shawn Campbell
    electric-stitch@w-link.net
   =20
    IMTU tc+ tm+ ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt(-) au st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++) =20
    =20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Can't help with the rest of it, but =
Military=20
Concepts sounds liked he farmed off of Robocop's Security Concepts (and =
all the=20
other _______ Concepts sub-divisions).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jesse DeGraff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Shawn @ Electric Stitch &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:electric-stitch@w-link.net">electric-stitch@w-link.net</A>=
&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=
=20
    </B>Saturday, March 13, 1999 9:41 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>My=20
    Introduction<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>My name is Shawn Campbell, I am 24 years =
old, live=20
    in Washington State and have been playing traveller for 8 years. I =
write=20
    software programs (embroidery designs) for commercial embroidery =
machines. I=20
    was on the TML once before about a year ago. I play a mixture of CT =
and MT,=20
    mostly MT. It's been a little while since I played Traveller last =
and am=20
    just recently getting reaquinted with the material. I am also =
looking for=20
    players. I've picked up&nbsp;some of the G:T material... but am =
using it to=20
    sponge up information only. I look forward to reading and posting on =
this=20
    list.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Here's my first questions: Has anyone =
heard of=20
    Rathon (sp) (pronounced Wrath - ON) is it trav? from a movie or =
book? My=20
    first trav ref put us on Rathon and it was very memorable... I'm not =
sure if=20
    he made it up or got it from somewhere. Most of his stuff seemed to =
come=20
    from other sources. (Dune, Starship Troopers (the game, not movie) =
and Blade=20
    Runner where major inspirations for him) He also had a MegaCorp =
called=20
    Military Concepts. I thought it was a great name and wondered if it =
was=20
    original or from somewhere else. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Shawn Campbell</DIV>
    <DIV><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:electric-stitch@w-link.net">electric-stitch@w-link.net</A>=
</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>IMTU tc+ tm+ ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt(-) au st+ =
ls pi+ ta=20
    he+(++)&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT =
color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:38:26 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: My Introduction

Hi Snawn,
Glad to meet you.  In regards to your request, I nave not heard of Rathon.
Maybe he changed the name a little form something else.  What distinguished
this world?  Describe it a bit, and I'm sure that somebody here will know
about it, if it was borrowed from some other source.
Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:44:40 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 03:41 pm 3/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>There are a few simple things that I would like to see in any FFS
type
>supplement:
>
>All tables should be designed to cover a specific minimum range. For
>example, all tables that include Tech Levels should at least cover TL 12,
>13, 14, and 15 without skipping levels.  Some tables, such as Materials,
>would obviously cover a greater range of TLs.  It's frustrating when one
>table has TL 9, 11, 13, 15 and the next has TL 10, 12, 14, 16.  Yes, the
>intermediate values can be calculated, but for those of us who a) are

	In at least some cases, the reason the table skips intermediate
levels is there ARE no intermediate values ... for example (IIRC)
jump drives took an extra TL to make one increase.  Generally, where
there's a smooth by-TL progression, all the TLs are represented in
the tables.

>It's also good to include any pertinant "rules of thumb" for design
>criteria.  (Minimum armor requirements, what an "average" military armor
>level might be.  Anything to point a neophyte in the right direction.)  

	Yep. Working on it.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:14:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Modern Weapons

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I was searching the web for the Heckler & Koch G-11 the other night and =
started getting leads on a whole bunch of juicy weapons.  I think I also =
found a company that will sell a semi-auto version of the G-11.  Hot =
damn!  : )

Has anyone discussed the tactical implications of the Objective =
Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), what seems to be the new quest for the =
Army's new ACR?  It fires a 20mm grenade which is supposed to allow it =
to shoot around corners.  In other words, no more hiding behind walls.

Also, search for the OCSW (Objective Crew Served Weapon?) on =
http://www.infoseek.com =20

And http://www.securityarms.com/ is a good resource for weapons pics.  =
Some of today's cutting edge small arms have more imagination than =
2300AD's (and especially Foss's art) Colt-based designs.

- --Clif


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was searching the web for the =
Heckler &amp;=20
Koch G-11 the other night and started getting leads on a whole bunch of =
juicy=20
weapons.&nbsp; I think I also found a company that will sell a semi-auto =
version=20
of the G-11.&nbsp; Hot damn!&nbsp; : )</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Has anyone discussed the tactical =
implications=20
of the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), what seems to be the =
new quest=20
for the Army's new ACR?&nbsp; It fires a 20mm grenade which is supposed =
to allow=20
it to shoot around corners.&nbsp; In other words, no more hiding behind=20
walls.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Also, search for the OCSW (Objective =
Crew Served=20
Weapon?) on <A =
href=3D"http://www.infoseek.com">http://www.infoseek.com</A>&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>And <A=20
href=3D"http://www.securityarms.com/">http://www.securityarms.com/</A> =
is a good=20
resource for weapons pics.&nbsp; Some of today's cutting edge small arms =
have=20
more imagination than 2300AD's (and especially Foss's art) Colt-based=20
designs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>--Clif</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #281
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 14 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 282



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

2300AD Pics
Re: Weather tables 
Re: Weather tables
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: The age of starships
Re: The age of starships
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: The age of starships
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: Weather tables
Re: The age of starships
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: 2300AD Pics
Re: URL Redirecting
re:  reinventing the wheel and 2300AD
SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:39:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: 2300AD Pics

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I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.  =
Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM =
site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to =
index them?

- --Clif


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I've scanned in a whole bunch of =
weapons and=20
equipment from 2300AD.&nbsp; Anybody know whether it would be illegal =
for me to=20
post them on my PBEM site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow =
the=20
search engines to index them?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>--Clif</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:49:53 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Weather tables 

> Isn't this taken care of in World Builder's Handbook?  So far, I'm finding
> it difficult to generate a habitable world.
As I remember weather tables - for earthlike planets - are the only thing in 
Grand Survey that didn't make WBH.
M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:23:20 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Weather tables

Clif writes:
"Isn't this taken care of in World Builder's Handbook?  
So far, I'm finding it difficult to generate a habitable 
world."

	I don't have WBH, but I would expect that any
	published unit on designing worlds would have some
	consideration of weather. Were you having trouble
	generating a habitable world with my weather tables?

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:17:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

At 10:39 AM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.
Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM
site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to
index them?

Those images are owned by the current owner of 2300AD, Tantalus I believe.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:23:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The age of starships

At 05:51 PM 3/13/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Known officially as the Stratofortress, the B-52's crews affectionately call
>it the BUFF (Big Ugly Fat Fellow).

Suuurre..  *that's* what BUFF stands for... <giggle>
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:58:46 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: The age of starships

Well, IMTU there are still a number of starships in use from the RoM!
These are mostly large warships or tenders from frontier fleets that
were "abandoned" during the ebb of the RoM. For the most part by the 3I
period they are now stationary habitats in "outer systems", populated by
the decendants of fleet personnel. Some of these "went mercenary",
selling protection agains raiders during the Long Night. A couple,
however make up the core ships of Nomad fleets! Again these are ex-RoM
fleet personnel that refused to give up when abandoned.

IMTU these nomads are self-contained communities, with Fleet tenders
converted to factory ships that produce items the population use as
trade goods. In addition, some well funded colonies 'hire' them for a
period of time to act as industrial support during the early stages of
colonization. 

One ship, the "Angel of Mercy" is a RoM hospital ship and is highly
reguarded for it's advanced medical techniques, garnered and added to
over more than 2000 years of virtually unbroken research! It is
concidered THE place to go for advanced treatment, research and training
in the medical, biotechnical field.

Mike

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> ONe thing that has come up on occasion is the advanced age that some
> starships, particularly, the creaky ol' rustbuckets that PC's get saddled with
> (no offense Eris!!! Honest!!!).
> 
> I read an news article today that the US Air Force is planning on keeping the
> B52 fleet going for another 40 years...thatsa' one tough airplane!
> 
 <snipped>
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:39:27 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

>In at least some cases, the reason the table skips intermediate
>levels is there ARE no intermediate values ... for example (IIRC)
>jump drives took an extra TL to make one increase.  Generally, where
>there's a smooth by-TL progression, all the TLs are represented in
>the tables.

I stand corrected.  Looking back at the tables, there weren't many that were
'missing' values, and those that were fit your explanation.  (I guess I
shouldn't stay up past my bedtime designing ships ;)


>It's also good to include any pertinant "rules of thumb" for design
>criteria.  (Minimum armor requirements, what an "average" military
>armor
>level might be.  Anything to point a neophyte in the right
>direction.)

>Yep. Working on it.

'preciate it.  I think it will save a lot of second guessing on the part of
all of us 'apprentice gearheads.'

Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:39:44 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The age of starships

In a message dated 3/14/99 1:02:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
travelleri@home.com writes:

<< Well, IMTU there are still a number of starships in use from the RoM!
 These are mostly large warships or tenders from frontier fleets that
 were "abandoned" during the ebb of the RoM.  >>

	Likewise, In my Mileau 0 game, many pirate ships are ships either abandoned
and recently salvaged ROM ships, or occasionally ships that have been in
operation for that long (many of the rest are Chanestin Kingdom manufacture--a
last piece of antiCleon spite).   Far from the destructive effects of wind,
water and atmosphere, an armored space vessel should last a long time.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:40:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

>>I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.
>Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM
>site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to
>index them?
>
>Those images are owned by the current owner of 2300AD, Tantalus I believe.

Okay, and does that mean that I can't duplicate them electronically for the
sole purpose of showing them to the players in my PBEM?  Not for the purpose
of having something attractive on my site for visitors?  (The robots.txt
file was supposed to tip you off that there would be NO visitors to the
site.)  Are you saying that I am supposed to tell each of my players to buy
2300AD just so they can see what it is their character would be buying?

(This is what I'm talking about when I complain that my questions are not
being answered.  And I can always be sure that YOU'RE the one to give me the
incomplete answer, can't I, Doug?)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:43:49 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Weather tables

Sorry, what I was saying was that I thought weather was taken care of in
WBH.  Secondly, I was commenting that I was having a difficult time
generating a hospitable earth-like world with World Builder, based on WBH.

- -- Clif


>Clif writes:
>"Isn't this taken care of in World Builder's Handbook?
>So far, I'm finding it difficult to generate a habitable
>world."
>
> I don't have WBH, but I would expect that any
> published unit on designing worlds would have some
> consideration of weather. Were you having trouble
> generating a habitable world with my weather tables?
>
>Ian
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:00:03 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: The age of starships

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
Dave,

Mothballed ships WOULD suffer from things like vacuum welding, circuitry
degradation form free radiation, etc, oover the length of the Long
Night, so a general refit would probably be a good idea. However, I
would also assume that preservation techniques would also have advanced
by that time. ( to for stall others arguing the above points)

Most of the legacy ships IMTU have been in constant occupation, if not
actual use as ships. They have had repair crews in contiuous operation,
using stockpiled or recovered parts. Most of the ships DON'T LOOK like
they did when the started, having had bits and peices grafted on as
needed. 

The Nomads still operation functioning ships are REALLY proud (almost
arrogant) types, with centuries of "racial" pride and a very deep
distrust of governments, stemming from the betrayal by the RoM that left
them to fend for themselves. But I digress form the subject.

I agree with you that there is no reason a ship, or rather it's hull and
frame can't last a LONG time. Upgrading internal systems would be where
a parent to child operations money and loans would come in.

Heck, in the Refinery I work in we're using a fair number of machines
(pumps, compressors, etc.) built in the '30's. Every time we talk about
replaceing them the cost vs gain numbers just don't make it. They do
their job and the incremental increases in effecency aren't cost
effective when up-grades to the existing equipment is factored in.

Mike
>         Likewise, In my Mileau 0 game, many pirate ships are ships either abandoned
> and recently salvaged ROM ships, or occasionally ships that have been in
> operation for that long (many of the rest are Chanestin Kingdom manufacture--a
> last piece of antiCleon spite).   Far from the destructive effects of wind,
> water and atmosphere, an armored space vessel should last a long time.
> 
>                                 Dave Nelson

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:04:48 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

At 01:40 PM 14/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.
>>Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM
>>site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to
>>index them?
>>
>>Those images are owned by the current owner of 2300AD, Tantalus I believe.
>
>Okay, and does that mean that I can't duplicate them electronically for the
>sole purpose of showing them to the players in my PBEM?

        <leaping into evolving gun fight>
        Hi, Cliff...  Take a look at my website (see URL below)...  I am
doing the exact same thing you are talking about.  I just have the standard
"legalese" disclaimer on the pages containing "copyright-questionable"
stuff, a plain-english explanation of *why* I have the images there and that
I am *not* trying to piss anyone off and I sent Marc a courtesy e-mail
inviting him to drop by the site.
        No grief.
        Another good idea is to put a *link* back to the (in your case)
Tantalus website on the pages containing the cool artwork or quoted
information...  that's free advertising for Tantalus, and they'd be idiots
to jump up and down on you for it.
        The biggest rules of thumb are "give credit where credit is due" and
"don't make a buck".  If you know where it comes from, then say so.  If you
are putting it up for "hobby" and not charging people to play in your PBEM,
then you are most times safe.

>  Not for the purpose
>of having something attractive on my site for visitors?  (The robots.txt
>file was supposed to tip you off that there would be NO visitors to the
>site.)  

        I didn't even bother with that...  my site, including "borrowed"
images and text, is fully indexed by every engine I could find.  =)  Again,
what most folks care about is wether or not you are claiming the work is
yours, and if you are making a buck off of it and not giving them thier fair
cut.

>Are you saying that I am supposed to tell each of my players to buy
>2300AD just so they can see what it is their character would be buying?

        Nope...  OTOH, you could *e-mail* the images to folks and not have
it on the site at all.  Or, make a "gear pics" page that is not linked
directly to other of the pages on your site and only pass the URL out to
your players.   It avoids the issue entirely that way...  just be sure your
players know it is for "private" consumption only. 

>(This is what I'm talking about when I complain that my questions are not
>being answered.  And I can always be sure that YOU'RE the one to give me the
>incomplete answer, can't I, Doug?)
>

        No offense, Cliff, but this last paragraph would have been better in
a private e-mail to Doug.  

>--Clif
>

        I hope your PBEM is going well!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:01:54 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

Check out one of the 2300 sites for the FAQ relating to the posting of 2300
material on the net.
my site doesn't have it, but use the webring navigation on my site to find
one that does.

http://members.tripod.com/AD23000

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics


>>>I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.
>>Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM
>>site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to
>>index them?
>>
>>Those images are owned by the current owner of 2300AD, Tantalus I believe.
>
>Okay, and does that mean that I can't duplicate them electronically for the
>sole purpose of showing them to the players in my PBEM?  Not for the
purpose
>of having something attractive on my site for visitors?  (The robots.txt
>file was supposed to tip you off that there would be NO visitors to the
>site.)  Are you saying that I am supposed to tell each of my players to buy
>2300AD just so they can see what it is their character would be buying?
>
>(This is what I'm talking about when I complain that my questions are not
>being answered.  And I can always be sure that YOU'RE the one to give me
the
>incomplete answer, can't I, Doug?)
>
>--Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:06:19 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6E1B.73A33240
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As a general rule, I would say NO. But as I indicated before, one of our =
sites holds a FAQ or a link to a FAQ about that kind of thing.
Please be careful. The 2300 owners are very generous to us and we do not =
want to lose our privileges to host 2300 material on the net.

TV
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- ---------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
    From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
    To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
    Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 9:46 AM
    Subject: 2300AD Pics
   =20
   =20
    I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.  =
Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM =
site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to =
index them?
    =20
    --Clif
    =20

- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6E1B.73A33240
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!doctype html =
public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>As a general rule, I would say NO. =
But as I=20
indicated before, one of our sites holds a FAQ or a link to a FAQ about =
that=20
kind of thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Please be =
careful. The 2300=20
owners are very generous to us and we do not want to lose our privileges =
to host=20
2300 material on the net.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>TV</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
- ------------------------<BR>&quot;...=20
you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas.&quot;<BR>David=20
Crockett<BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Clif &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:brclif@digital.net">brclif@digital.net</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@mpgn.com">traveller@mpgn.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=
=20
    </B>Sunday, March 14, 1999 9:46 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>2300AD=20
    Pics<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I've scanned in a whole bunch of =
weapons and=20
    equipment from 2300AD.&nbsp; Anybody know whether it would be =
illegal for me=20
    to post them on my PBEM site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't =
allow=20
    the search engines to index them?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>--Clif</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE6E1B.73A33240--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:13:43 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

Thomas,

Tried the URL in your post and got a 404 message from Tripod. Is the
adress correct?

Mike

Thomas Vickers wrote:
> 
> Check out one of the 2300 sites for the FAQ relating to the posting of 2300
> material on the net.
> my site doesn't have it, but use the webring navigation on my site to find
> one that does.
> 
> http://members.tripod.com/AD23000
> 
> TV
>

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:12:27 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics

http://www.mpgn.com/gaming/licensing_faq.html

Okay, read this to answer your 2300 questions, Knew I could find it.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: 2300AD Pics


>>>I've scanned in a whole bunch of weapons and equipment from 2300AD.
>>Anybody know whether it would be illegal for me to post them on my PBEM
>>site if I put a robots.txt file that doesn't allow the search engines to
>>index them?
>>
>>Those images are owned by the current owner of 2300AD, Tantalus I believe.
>
>Okay, and does that mean that I can't duplicate them electronically for the
>sole purpose of showing them to the players in my PBEM?  Not for the
purpose
>of having something attractive on my site for visitors?  (The robots.txt
>file was supposed to tip you off that there would be NO visitors to the
>site.)  Are you saying that I am supposed to tell each of my players to buy
>2300AD just so they can see what it is their character would be buying?
>
>(This is what I'm talking about when I complain that my questions are not
>being answered.  And I can always be sure that YOU'RE the one to give me
the
>incomplete answer, can't I, Doug?)
>
>--Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:20:15 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: URL Redirecting

On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:33:26 -0500, "Frank Pitt"
<frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
>>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:20:50 -0500, "Sword Worlder"
>><swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:
>>>Workable idea.  I can see how this might be popular, if we do it right.

>>This is what come.to does; there's actually a slight flaw in the
>>concept - you can't specify a sub-URL (e.g.,
>>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller/features/stories/Default.htm).
>>However, I've been thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm
>>pretty sure that you could get the additional capability by using
>>a CGI.  SwordWorlder, I'd be willing to discuss this in more
>>detail with you and Ron privately if Downport is interested in
>>this idea.

>You can also do it "in browser" using a Java redirector. It's what we did with
>our "help pages " at work, we wanted people to be able to hit F1 and go to the
>right (context-sensitive) page, we also wanted a menu and title frame always
>there with the help page in a sub frame.

That's OK if you know or can control what browser your visitors
are using.  Not everyone uses Nutscrape or Infernal Exploder,
yet; there's still quite a bit of Lynx out there, believe it or
not - not to mention the less-capable browsers, like Opera and
Mosaic.  A server-side solution can work for all browsers.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:21:55 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: re:  reinventing the wheel and 2300AD

re:  reinventing the wheel
   I agree with your sediment that 2300AD is a great game in itself.  
However wouldn't you want to open up the game to a wider audience?  My 
earlier modest contrabution is hoping that an independent company would 
pick up the gauntlet and run with it.  I admit my timeline borrows too 
heavily but the net benefit to both games would be to make a realistic 
game history for a lot of Traveller and 2300AD players who have become 
"collectors".  With the rights to each Traveller and 2300AD owned by 
others it is unlikely a fusion will occur unless fans start to push.
Humble little rant and now back to regularly scheduled programmes.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:23:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE6E26.4B3DB360
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now this is visionary weapons design.  Looks like it was designed by a grunt
who had spent most of his time with his belt unbuckled in the dirt.

- --Clif


http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE6E26.4B3DB360
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="SecurityArms.url"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="SecurityArms.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm
Modified=208A4802506EBE0171

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE6E26.4B3DB360--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:29:31 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD

As a rabid 2300 person let me share just a bit.
The current owners of 2300 just sold their company MPGN(Tantalus), but kept
the rights ti 2300, Twilight 2000 and Dark Conspiracy.
They have communicated with the 2300 list and the future for 2300 is not as
dark as it once seemed.
While the game may not be republished, they may create an official web
presence for it in the near future.
At this point, it is wise to let the 2300 owners set their own pace and
schedule.
We even have a mailing list to discuss the future of 2300 and such if anyone
would like to sign up, email me and I will let you know how or point you to
a webpage that tells you hwo.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
To: fides3@earthlink.net <fides3@earthlink.net>; traveller@mpgn.com
<traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 1:26 PM
Subject: re: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD


>
>re:  reinventing the wheel
>   I agree with your sediment that 2300AD is a great game in itself.
>However wouldn't you want to open up the game to a wider audience?  My
>earlier modest contrabution is hoping that an independent company would
>pick up the gauntlet and run with it.  I admit my timeline borrows too
>heavily but the net benefit to both games would be to make a realistic
>game history for a lot of Traveller and 2300AD players who have become
>"collectors".  With the rights to each Traveller and 2300AD owned by
>others it is unlikely a fusion will occur unless fans start to push.
>Humble little rant and now back to regularly scheduled programmes.
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #282
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 14 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 283



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Rathon (was re:My Introduction)
Re: URL Redirecting
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Traveller PC RPG
Re: Traveller PC RPG
Re: Traveller PC RPG
Re: Canonicity
Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium
GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: Traveller PC RPG
Re: Traveller PC RPG
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.
Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: The age of starships
[Fwd: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD redux]
2300AD Copyright

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:32:18 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

seems like I saw something similar in BTRC's More Guns supplement.
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 1:29 PM
Subject: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)


>Now this is visionary weapons design.  Looks like it was designed by a
grunt
>who had spent most of his time with his belt unbuckled in the dirt.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:42:44 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted in
the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the deckplans
(and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures cranked
out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with the
outline of the ship's hull when landed?  This would require the ship to come
in for a landing and rotate a little past parallel to the ground to get all
the landing pads down.  I tried it with keeping the centerline of the ship
parallel to the ground and it just looks HORRIBLE!!!  Not to mention the
fact that the struts have to be really close to the centerline....

Thanks,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:45:54 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

Ahhhh, the FN P90!  Great gun.  The Peruvian (?) HRT unit that wen into the
Japanese embassy awhile back was armed with some of these.  Neat little
weapon.  Haven't played with the real thing, but I know a guy with an
airsoft version and it's quite a neat little package.  The real steel
basically gives you rifle-level performance in a package that's smaller than
most normal SMG's :)

Jesse

>Now this is visionary weapons design.  Looks like it was designed by a
grunt
>who had spent most of his time with his belt unbuckled in the dirt.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:53:08 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Jesse,

Unfortunately, after looking at the Sulieman in G:T it isn't the scouts
of old. In fact it is quite a bit "thicker" than the original design
from CT days. My advice would be to have it sit in a "nose down" config
and assume that internal gravity makes it seem level once your inside.
That or shave a deck off of it and make it the sleek little ship it used
to be.

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted in
> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the deckplans
> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures cranked
> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with the
> outline of the ship's hull when landed?  This would require the ship to come
> in for a landing and rotate a little past parallel to the ground to get all
> the landing pads down.  I tried it with keeping the centerline of the ship
> parallel to the ground and it just looks HORRIBLE!!!  Not to mention the
> fact that the struts have to be really close to the centerline....
> 
> Thanks,
> Jesse

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:49:11 -0800
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)

Rathon was a desert world with less than 1% water. "Houses" fought over
wells and water rights. Their was one particularly nasty house called the
Mule's. (I'm starting to think he may have been looking at AD&D Dark Sun
material) Their was no law or governent. I think it was an Amber or Red
Zone... either way, it was a place you didn't want to go.

I know he just put it in, because we were playing in the Solomani Rim and
their is no mention of a planet like that. Their was also a planet called
Pandora's Box. I believe it was a water world. It was 1 parsec from Rathon.
I remember Rathon as being the first trav adventure I went on. 2 of us
didn't make it out alive.

I think he pretty much made a subsector out of other sources and disregarded
trav canon completly. (Of course, his TU was from a group that started in
the late 70's, so I don't think their was an imperium when they started...
then they probably just picked Sol. Rim as their "home town"  The ref was a
bit ahead of me on movies and games. I would never have thought Klandathu
was not an original work of his.

...but I guess inspiration has to come from somewhere. It was great fun
hunting down "skin-jobs" (aka replicants from Blade Runner) and red haired
Harconen's (sp)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net

IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


- -----Original Message-----
From: KenRoney@aol.com <KenRoney@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: My Introduction


>Hi Snawn,
>Glad to meet you.  In regards to your request, I nave not heard of Rathon.
>Maybe he changed the name a little form something else.  What distinguished
>this world?  Describe it a bit, and I'm sure that somebody here will know
>about it, if it was borrowed from some other source.
>Ken
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:57:53 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: URL Redirecting

|That's OK if you know or can control what browser your visitors
|are using.  Not everyone uses Nutscrape or Infernal Exploder,
|yet; there's still quite a bit of Lynx out there, believe it or
|not - not to mention the less-capable browsers, like Opera and
|Mosaic.  A server-side solution can work for all browsers.


Our idea is to offer something like <freelancetraveller.downport.com> so
that you can dispence with the redirector.  I don't know if you've noticed,
but the redirect server is down two or three times per week, sometimes for
hours at a time.  I'm not saying that 9netave's servers never have down
time, but the redirector is just one more thing that can go wrong.  These
"virtual domain" names incur a set up fee, but there's no monthly charge to
Downport.com, as they are part of the server charge.



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:43:36 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Clif writes:
>
> I can't understand all of this Doom blasphemy.  : )  What 3-D
> games had you played already (other than Wolfenstein 3-D) that
> satisfied your craving for first-person shoot 'em up.  The only
> OTHER one I know of is "Seal Team", which was based on an idea
> I submitted to Microprose back in the late 80's when I had a
> C128.

While the first person part is optional (multiple camera views),
Blue Byte's Incubation wins hands down.  Turn based, 3D, science
fiction squad level combat.  It's only down side is that it isn't
as configurable as Quake2.  (Otherwise, it would make a damn
nifty graphical component to most PBEM gaming.  [Yes, it has a
play by e-mail mode.])

One of my pet projects is to convert Shogo into a customizable
turn based battle engine.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:45:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

Yeah, first time I saw it I was thinking, "It's a briefcase that happens to
shoot."

- --Clif



>Ahhhh, the FN P90!  Great gun.  The Peruvian (?) HRT unit that wen into the
>Japanese embassy awhile back was armed with some of these.  Neat little
>weapon.  Haven't played with the real thing, but I know a guy with an
>airsoft version and it's quite a neat little package.  The real steel
>basically gives you rifle-level performance in a package that's smaller
than
>most normal SMG's :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:53:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Traveller PC RPG

Any other news on the Traveller PC RPG?  Any idea when it is supposed to hit
the shelves?

- --Clif

That game oughta have a PBEM mode...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:58:06 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller PC RPG

|
|That game oughta have a PBEM mode...


Or a MOO!



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:11:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller PC RPG

What's a MOO?

- --Clif


>|
>|That game oughta have a PBEM mode...
>
>
>Or a MOO!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:47:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>>For they too were unclean.  Those who follow the false Books of Marc
>are
>	Gee, where do those of us who use pieces of all FOUR rulesets fall
>in? And for Ghu's sake, how do you classify Eris?

I think you may need to consider the purchase of a tanker of detergent, if
this classification is true...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:56:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter Screens a la Imperium

On the TML  AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>This system is meant to simulate the need for ships to pass relatively close
>to one another in a brief pass each combat turn, coupled with the bigness of
>space.

I got a copy of HG1 this weekend, which has some interesting bits on
targeting and manuevering.

- - you can try and break through a line of battle (to break a blockade). If
you can maintain close range for 4 consecutive turns you succeed. Infering
from the rules, the reserves (the screened ships) would then be the Line of
Battle...

- - there are targeting limits at short range - you can only fire on ships
that fire at you. If you aren't fired on you can pick your target.

Finally, some hints to HGs link back to Imperium.

- - High Intensity Missile fire may be performed - +4 DM, may only be
performed once and expends all missiles.


Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:01:31 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

 <jcarlino@home.com> writes:

>In GT combat can be very submarine like. A ship that want's to remain hidden
>can shut down its active sensors and transponder.  As long as it only uses
>PESA a very skillful operator using really good AESA will be necessary to
>find it at anything but relatively short ranges.  A ship might be passed
>undetected until it fires its weapons.  Then, just like a submarine, its
>location is compromised.

I prefer a submarine like model (or dreadnaught type model) to the Star
- -Wars style fighters.... I really liked 2300's Star Cruiser, except for the
bits when I hit a ship with 4 missiles at once and needed 40+ rolls to hit
...

>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>Not All Who Wander Are Lost

But some girls wander by mistake.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:09:58 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller PC RPG

MOO = MUD, Object Oriented


|What's a MOO?
|
|--Clif
|
|
|>|
|>|That game oughta have a PBEM mode...
|>
|>
|>Or a MOO!
|

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 16:19:18 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller PC RPG

On 03/14/99 at 04:11 PM,  "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> said:

>What's a MOO?

"It's what the cow said when asked its name." ;-p

Multi-User Dungeon Object Orientated, Multi-User Domain Object
Orientated (MOO), IOW's it's a MUD or MUSH with object oriented
characteristics.  

There's a nice faq, MOO-COWS faq, at 

    http://www.moo.mud.org/moo-faq/

And a good tutorial at,

    http://lucien.sims.berkeley.edu/MOO/Moo.Tutorial.Txt


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:37:10 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sethkimmel wrote:

>That gibes with what I heard. I still sense some design flaws in the ship. By
>this description, it sounds like the design didn't have enough combat
>redundancy in her DC equipment, though the hit location sounds like bad luck
>as well. I also vaguely read somplace that she lacked a close in weapon system
>and ECM suite, so the missile couldn't by shot down/jammed. Lastly I heard
>that the missile was picked up very late on radar (last 30-40 seconds of
>flight?), which if true makes me wonder about her sensor suite.

The shot was a golden BB - if you planted the warhead on board by hand,
you'd be pressed to do more damage. Then again, the Type 42 wasn't
equipped with a close-in weapon system (CIWS), although it did have an
ECM suite.

At the time, SHEFFIELD was operating her SCOT satellite communications
gear, which interfered with her ECM and ESM gear. The Exocet was picked
up by other ships; and later in the conflict one of SHEFFIELD's sister
ships (EXETER) got clear warning of an exocet attack from her ESM gear.

>To be fair; I also heard that these flaws were redressed after the war. The
>vessels gained ECM, and a close in weapon system (either CIWS or Goalkeeper; I
>can't remember...), and the RN adopted an AEW helo, and better fighter
>director and control precedures, so they wouldn't have to leave lone ships on
>radar picket. It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal. Her
>Phantoms and AEW craft would have NEVER let the Argentinians got close enough
>for an Exocet shot in the first place...

Yep.

>I am concerned that the new supersonic seaskimming missiles can not be shot
>down by rotary cannon anymore. I hope that a new system in the works to
>replace CIWS and Goalkeeper...

Gun-based CIWS isn't that effective against supersonic seaskimmers;
which is why the USN is moving towards RAM (Rolling-airframe missile)
for point defence. IMHO, the best deals out there are the Russian CADS-
N-1 combined rotary cannon and missile point-defence mounts.

>Ob Trav: HG and TCS maybe?


Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:36:47 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : Ditzie Does CPR Main Guns, etc.

Robert O'Connor wrote:

>The formula :-
>
>effective energy = muzzle energy + ([calibre/2] + TL - 7)^3
>
>is a fudge to enhance penetration for HEAP over 'plain vanilla' KEAP
>rounds.

Sounds counter-intuitive, since KE rounds will penetrate more armour
than HEAT.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:33:52 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns....

Black ICE wrote:

>I think I see the problem.  For small arms, the penetration value of
>HEAP rounds against armored targets is "the sum of muzzle energy and
>explosive energy." [FF&Sv2, pp. 39-40]  However, this does not seem to
>apply to large-caliber weapons.  For large- caliber HEAP rounds, the
>penetration value is based on the diameter of the round, multiplied by a
>TL-dependent modifier [Table 79, pg. 93].  (This constant penetration
>value matches the premise in GDW games such as Twilight: 2000 and
>Command Decision.  As I am not involved in the design and production of
>shaped-charge rounds, I will assume that shaped-charge do, indeed,
>display this trait.)  Assuming that the FS 120mm Rapid-Fire Mass Driver
>and the FS 150mm CPR gun are both TL9, we get the following penetration
>values:

Assuming that the penetration of a HEAT round is proportional to the
diameter of the round is quite reasonable.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:29:09 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

In a message dated 3/14/99 11:47:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, fenris@slip.net
writes:

<<  I tried it with keeping the centerline of the ship
 parallel to the ground and it just looks HORRIBLE!!!  Not to mention the
 fact that the struts have to be really close to the centerline....
 
 Thanks, >>

Well you could try it with a LONG nose gear strut and very short main gear
struts to keep her parallel. I consider this desirable as without this, the
ship would be uncomfortable when the deckplates power is turned off.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:03:46 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/14/99 11:47:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, fenris@slip.net
> writes:
>
>  Thanks, >>
> 
> Well you could try it with a LONG nose gear strut and very short main gear
> struts to keep her parallel. I consider this desirable as without this, the
> ship would be uncomfortable when the deckplates power is turned off.
> 

	Avro Arrow was somewhat along these lines.

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:17:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: The age of starships

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/14/99 1:02:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> travelleri@home.com writes:
> 
> << Well, IMTU there are still a number of starships in use from the RoM!
>  These are mostly large warships or tenders from frontier fleets that
>  were "abandoned" during the ebb of the RoM.  >>
> 
>         Likewise, In my Mileau 0 game, many pirate ships are ships either abandoned
> and recently salvaged ROM ships, or occasionally ships that have been in
> operation for that long (many of the rest are Chanestin Kingdom manufacture--a
> last piece of antiCleon spite).   Far from the destructive effects of wind,
> water and atmosphere, an armored space vessel should last a long time.
> 
Well, if one accepts the premise that the TL of the RoM was over TL12
(I'm not trying to reopen that debate; just bear with me a minute), that
can lead to some very entertaining pirate encounters.  After all, the
idea that a pirate ship may have a TL 2 or 3 levels higher than anything
to which the PCs have access can really up the pucker factor....

>                                 Dave Nelson

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:23:56 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Fwd: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD redux]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------72548BA78594B6100943058E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



- --------------72548BA78594B6100943058E
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <36EC364B.E659ECF@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:20:59 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: reinventing the wheel and 2300AD redux
References: <19990314192156.10396.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Boris Cibic wrote:

> re:  reinventing the wheel
>

Right now Rob Miracle who works for the current Copyright holder, Tantalus,
is working to creat a domain name for an on-line 3rd edition of 2300ad, i.e
2300AD.com, that members of the 2300ad mailing list are currently debating
format and extent of the coming revision. Currently there is a move to
revise the Near Star list with current Hipparcos data which will
significantly change the stellar geography and as a result the future
history leading up to the game or merely tweaking with the NSL and 23AD
future history as we know it. Join the mailing list at www.onelist.com,
you'd be surprised how much work we have done. There will be a 3rd edition
either hosted by Tantalus, or us, on a web-site moderated and created by
us, the list members and their guests,  or one  hosted at one of the many
personal websites. Your input is needed for this great project. Most of us
will run either the very revised 2300ad and the slighty tweaked 2300ad
concurrently. At lot of work has gone into revising and repairing the
existing game: Star Cruiser Lite, Star Cruiser2, stellar cartagraphy comp
programs, character gen programs, discrepancy corrections between canon
(genuflect) products i.e. rudell units, population, stutterwarp discharge
rates, throwing distance, chronology discrepancies, etc. Just posting the
errata has taken years to compile.  There are hundreds of weapons, dozens
of starhips, equipment beyond counting, military, social, and
political/economic histories of just about every major player in 23AD and
our coming Great GameII, corporationss, Orders of Battles, there is just
too much to list here, afterall, the Equipment List 2 on one site has over
100 pieces of equipment ranging from space naval  mines to portacomps.
There are also people's own campaign milieu, for example "2100AD", "2087",
"Earthspace", set in the E21. Many of these people don't participate in the
TML or in other Traveller venues, so may be unaware of those of us on the
TML who have 21st century campaigns in the Traveller Universe. I shouldn't
say reinventing the wheel, as your efforts are not in vain, but may be
operating in a partial vacuum. There is much to be learned and
'borrowed/stolen' from both lists!

MUSASHI


- --------------72548BA78594B6100943058E--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:40:50 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: 2300AD Copyright

At this current time, it would be semi-illegal for you to post the
2300ad gun pictures on your PBEM site. Go to one the 2300ad website,
Pentapodspace or "One man's View of 2300AD" to see the copyright rules.
You might have been able to post them on your site if you hadn't of
asked the TML audience in advance. My suggestion is to email the 23ooAD
Mailing List at 2300AD@onelist.com and see what the great sages, Loren
Wiseman and Rob Miracle who haunt our list might say. The only safe
image I know of is the 2300AD logo. We can use the game stuff as
reference, post new items or revisions, but as of now we can't post GDW
material.
Challenge and TDigest material has been published on 2300ad sites with
the various author's permission.

Subscribe to the 2300AD Mailing List at www.onelist.com, great things
are happening there:

2300AD The Third Edition MK I MOD I !!!!!!!

MUSASHI
Traveller '77
2300AD '87
Space 1889 since '89

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #283
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 284



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Message Formats
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: G:T and sensors
3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: Weather tables
Ditzie does Gauss Guns
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Dr. Who Parody
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense
101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: Message Formats
Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:44:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Message Formats

Hi.  This is not to flame anyone, but could we please lose the "multipart
messages in MIME format"?  I'm not sure if the people sending these are
aware of it, but in my email program their messages are all printed twice: 
Once normal and once with a huge mass of tags and junk. 

While I'm at it, could people also set their software to use standard
80-character lines (or less)?  Again, the senders are probably not aware
of it, but if you use lines that are more than 80 characters long then 
all your messsages come out 
like this
with short extra lines following
each long
line and making things tough to 
read.

Does anyone know how people can find out what exactly their sending and
how to fix it?  Is the "multi-part mime format" a Eudora thing or what?
What about the line lengths?

Many thanks,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:47:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 03:45 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah, first time I saw it I was thinking, "It's a briefcase that happens to
>shoot."

No, that's either the Ares FMG or the H&K MP-5 briefcase adaptation.

The P90 was designed to be issued to all those troops who *aren't* direct
combat infantry.. tankers, artillery, support types.  It's a compact,
effective weapon that doesn't encumber the soldier as much as a long rifle
would.

The real masterpiece of design was the 50 round magazine that is place
along the top of the barrel.  Really cuts down on weapon bulk, and allows
the weapon to be carried in an oversized holster.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:48:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 02:23 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Now this is visionary weapons design.  Looks like it was designed by a grunt
>who had spent most of his time with his belt unbuckled in the dirt.

Fabrique Nationale, who have been making infantry weapons since Napolean
III was on the French Throne.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:24:33 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

Matt Clonfero wrote:

>Modern wet navies use `CAPTOR' (CAPtive TORpedo) mines -  a passive
>sensor which, when triggered, fires a lightweight torpedo at the target.
>Perhaps some whizz would like to gen. a similar effort up (using a big
>missile or whatever) for Traveller?


Interesting idea. I'm using GURPS Vehicles and G:T to design some non-
standard missiles at GURPS TL 12.  Basically I'm working on a fire and
forget missile that will allow a gunner to program the missile to reach a
specific area (hex) then the targeting computer in the missile will take
over and lock-on a target using a radscanner or radar receiver (like an ARM
missile).  I intended to limit them to Imperial Navy, (and perhaps the other
major interstellar TL 12 governments).

I'm trying to find a good defense against fighters, since I don't like'em.
Also I believe that the Imperial Navy wouldn't have gone with battle-riders
over fighter unless there existed a weapon that made large squadrons of
fighters less of a threat. This would relegate the fighter to a planetary
support and escort roll.

I.T.C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:26:15 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

Has anyone on this list ever follishly try to render the known universe
in 3d as opposed to 2D?

I posted on the TML years ago my theory ( "which is my theory, is mine"
Mizzz Anne Elk) that space is three dimensional but the 2d universe of
Travller is what the Universe looks to our primitive monkey-minds while
interpreting JUMPSPACE. Going sub-light or near super-luminal would get
you somewhere else if you left one hex/ star system to go to another. In
Jumpspace a J-1 gets you to Prometheus  on the subsector map, but if you
left in a daedelus-type ship you'd be going the wrong direction and
destination  if you followed Jump navigation exit vertices.

The 3D space of FGU's Space Atlases for Space Opera inspired me to
attempt to create a 3d universe for Trav. whilst trying to maintain the
borders and  choke-points (the rifts etc.) of the 2D Trav universe. I've
since lost my maps and data, after all this was done ten years ago, and
if I had it now, I'd ROFLMAO at who stupid and primitive it was. Max
Lambertini's WARP programs didn't exist then, and I doubt the PC I had
at that time could of handled it.

I'm not a math or physicist of any order and I can barely get the
NavAids and Stellar Cartography Programs I have to produce, but I'd like
to converse on list/ off list with anybody who was/is foolish to work on
something like this. Not having any Stellar depth to the galaxy (where's
the Z axis?) really Bugs the 'RGif'zt LACH (Kaferese ;-) out of Me!

MUSASHI
(CT,MT,TNE, T4, G:T, T5?????   I''m sooooo connnnnnfussssed?!!?)

BTW Never call MT   T2, Cameron and the copyright police will be out fer
blood an' souls. I hear he's almost as ruthless as Disney: The Evil
Empire  {:-(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:03:52 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>>Well the sinking can be attributed to cost savings measures by the British
>>navy.  The ship was a frigate and some years back the Brits started making
>>their guided missile FG's out of high-tech aluminum alloy.

>No no no. HMS Sheffield was a Type 42 Destroyer, with a steel hull and
>superstructure.

You may have been thinking of the USS Stark, an American frigate which had
an aluminum superstructure and was hit by an Iraqi Exocet. It's
superstructure burned extensively (although unlike the Sheffield it did not
sink, and last I knew was still in service.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:28:08 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

I would prefer if it sat with decks parallel to the ground.
However, if you say it looks horrible that way, then I
would understand....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:27:30 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Weather tables

In TML 281 Cliff wrote:

>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:24:21 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Weather tables
>
>Isn't this taken care of in World Builder's Handbook?  So far, I'm finding
>it difficult to generate a >habitable world.
>
>- --Clif

Book 6 Scouts, pages 47-50 give some guidence in deveploing detail in an
atmosphere, but leave a lot of how to present that in play.

World Builders Handbook, pages 64-71 again give guidence, again with lots
of scope for personalisation. A significant note is in section 9, page 71.
Weather Control : May be introduced at TL8, in short there's permission to
fudge (till the virus).

If you want anything beyond general info i.e. length and average intensity
of seasons, planetary averages of temprature and atmospheric interacction.
For localised weather both systems (IMHO) require extra work by :
        inventive hand waving,
        indepth study of meterology, or
        resort to additional tables and data.

On the concept of 'a habital world' as I'm unaware of how 'habital a world'
you are trying to generate, please accept (again IMHO) that a randomly
generated world with weather and topography akin to Long Beach with
occasional Tahiatian islands for variety, is uncommon. Most of worlds I've
detailed while in planetary systems habital zones have less than friendly
environments. These have helped to provide (usualy ignored) background for
story telling and scene setting.

Anyone with other info to add?



Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:49:19 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ditzie does Gauss Guns

You may have noticed some seismic activity around FS headquarters, becasue
Ditzie is working on Gauss Guns ... sorry, 'peaceful magnetic devices', and
she is strongly suspecting some major violations of the Laws of Physics.
Which she tries to follow. Two times out of three.

OK. Unless we're reading something wrong, a 120 mm Gauss Gun round will
mass 30 kilos.

Accelerating it to 4000 meters per second (a nice round number for a TL9
peaceful magnetic device) demands 0.216 MJ according to FFS2 p45  (30
kg*4000 ms^-2/2 000 000, *3.6 tech efficiency).

Now, if k=1/2*m*v^2, then the rounds kinetic energy is about 15 * 16
million joules, or call it a rough 240 million joules.

Now, unless Accounting have been let loose on the Law of Conservation of
Energy (a possibility Ditzie is not, at this point, prepared to discount),
something is very badly wrong.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:20:21 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

David P. Summers wrote:

> I would prefer if it sat with decks parallel to the ground.
> However, if you say it looks horrible that way, then I
> would understand....

There's a picture of a scoutship on the cover of a MT manual (Referee's
Companion?) where it is floating on an ocean.  Apparently, the mass of the engines
at the rear tends to displace things oddly and dorsal ridge becomes the level
surface in a gravity well.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:11:09 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Dr. Who Parody

TMLers,

The Rowan Atkinson/Dr. Who parody rumour is true - and I'm in London to see
it! It's part of the "Red Nose Day" special/telethon. Presumably all the UK
residents will think nothing of this, but considering I'm on in London for 3
days, it's quite lucky for me!

ObTrav: Can Traveller be parodied? I mean, there's Doubg's "Silly Era" pages
and the lightbulb jokes are funny, but are there are there any good ol'
"saws" to be parodied?

- --
Ethan Henry                              Java Evangelist
egh@klg.com                                     KL Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:06:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich writes
> >
> >> Quark (Quake Army Knife) is a easy to use editor for Q2
> >> levels.  And, I recommend it for anyone wanting to jump
> >> in with a minimum of hassle.
> >
> > Hmm. You woldn't happen to know where I could find this,
> > do you?  I'm trying to immerse myself in 3d computer art
> > anyway ...
> 
> http://www.povray.org/  Persistence of Vision ray tracing
>                         excellent multi-platform 3D graphics

NOTE: for all of you who do not know what it is, POV-Ray is an extremely
capable 3-D raytracing program, but it does NOT include a modeller. for
that you'll need other programs.

Two nice 3-D programs that do do raytracing (for the Mac) are:

StrataVision 3D 4.0 ($10 s/h from Stata www.strata3d.com) a gimme to
entice you to upgrade to their current version.

Pixels 3D 2.1.4, a free download from www.pixels3d.com, plus a 6mb PDF
download of the manual. You have to register it to keep a nag notice
away, but the registration's free (except for the telemarketing to get
you to upgrade to _their_ current product)





- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:38:42 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted in
> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the deckplans
> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures cranked
> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with the
> outline of the ship's hull when landed?  This would require the ship to come
> in for a landing and rotate a little past parallel to the ground to get all
> the landing pads down.  I tried it with keeping the centerline of the ship
> parallel to the ground and it just looks HORRIBLE!!!  Not to mention the
> fact that the struts have to be really close to the centerline....

I would probably argue against this. This means that if artificial gravity
goes off - for example, if you have to take it off-line for repairs - the
deck now slants.

I would actually try to go back to the older, thinner Sulieman if you can...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:02:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> I would probably argue against this. This means that if artificial gravity
> goes off - for example, if you have to take it off-line for repairs - the
> deck now slants.

However, just because it's stupid, doesn't mean a contractor wouldn't
build it that way or that the government wouldn't buy it!

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:13:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Evyn MacDude writes:
>  
> Depends on you target. Newer tankers are built like bricks.
> 
> Way back when I was young. I was ordered to board a tanker that was
> hit by a mine in the Persian Gulf. a small gash in the outer hull, a
> hairline crack in the inner, and a couple of stuck below decks hatches.

Ex-coast guard friend of mine pointed out a major reason why that freighter was
very difficult to sink -- if you take a cargo ship and fill it with empty
55-gallon drums, you're going to pretty much have to disintegrate it to make it
sink, since flooded cargo compartments will still float...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:39:08 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

>Two nice 3-D programs that do do raytracing (for the Mac) are:
>
>StrataVision 3D 4.0 ($10 s/h from Stata www.strata3d.com) a gimme to
>entice you to upgrade to their current version.
>
>Pixels 3D 2.1.4, a free download from www.pixels3d.com, plus a 6mb PDF
>download of the manual. You have to register it to keep a nag notice
>away, but the registration's free (except for the telemarketing to get
>you to upgrade to _their_ current product)

Cinema4D GO is fairly cheap and comes with a CD full of spaceships,
shipparts, scenes, planets and whatever neat for Trav. It runs on Macs and
PCs (SGIas well I hear) and is very good at 3D but not Free.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:20:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>>Yeah, first time I saw it I was thinking, "It's a briefcase that happens
to
>>shoot."
>
>No, that's either the Ares FMG or the H&K MP-5 briefcase adaptation.

Never heard of the Ares but I remember the MP5 and the Mac10/11 setup.
>
>The P90 was designed to be issued to all those troops who *aren't* direct
>combat infantry.. tankers, artillery, support types.  It's a compact,
>effective weapon that doesn't encumber the soldier as much as a long rifle
>would.
>
Okay, but what I want to know is what makes this weapon LESS effective than
a non-bullpup assault rifle?  Why wouldn't standard infantry carry it?  The
barrel seems to almost go all of the way back to the butt, so it has
considerable length.

>The real masterpiece of design was the 50 round magazine that is place
>along the top of the barrel.  Really cuts down on weapon bulk, and allows
>the weapon to be carried in an oversized holster.


The H&K G-11 did that, first.  It just didn't put its main action far enough
back in the stock.  Whoever designed this thing REALLY made use of all good
ideas and even improved them, finally coming up with some ideas of their
own, like making the foregrip the same as the handguard.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:23:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>>Now this is visionary weapons design.  Looks like it was designed by a
grunt
>>who had spent most of his time with his belt unbuckled in the dirt.
>
>Fabrique Nationale, who have been making infantry weapons since Napolean
>III was on the French Throne.
>--
I KNEW that FN had made it... What I was wondering was what or who prompted
so many radical departures from the standard FN FAL type design?  I mean,
they went ALL OUT to create something totally cutting edge!
>
Did Moebius sign on with them?  ; )  (Allusion to "visionary" and "The Fifth
Element" thread)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:29:34 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense

[snip]
>OK. The FS 150 mm HVAP Smoothbore Gun.
>
>Consisting of a 9m long barrel, an autloader for the 50kg SEFOP
>electro-thermal shells, an imaging radar for fire control and full
>stabilisation, the FS 150mm is able to throw a shell every 70 seconds for a
>power demand of 50 kilowatts.
>
>The shells have a short range of 690 meters, for a DV of 202. The
>penetration drops off with range, to 187 at Medium, 159 at Long and 103 at
>Extreme range (I guess Medium is 1.4km, Long 2.8km and Extreme 5.6 km).
[snip]

SEFOP rounds should have a constant penetration and DV across their range.
They are a SElf FOrging Projectile, which means, essentially, that the
shell is just the "bus" that delivers the warhead to the vicinity of the
target.  Once nearby, a sensor in the shell triggers a shaped charge
(usually pointing "down" onto the top of the target vehicle) which, in
turn, has a copper (or other) "disk" in front of it.  The force of the
explosion, the nature of the disk material, and some handy laws of physics
turn the disk into a projectile similar to a long rod penetrator capable of
doing significant damage.

It's a good armor-defeating round, as long as it isn't shot at by active
defenses.  The U.S. Army is delivering the XM-943 STAFF (Smart Target
Activated Fire and Forget) top-attack round which actually has some target
seeking capability and uses a SEFOP penetrator once it reaches the target.
Of course, the usual budget issues cause the STAFF round to face possible
cancellation.

See what you learn by playing computer games (i.e.M1 Tank Platoon II).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:42:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

With a bit of semi-free time on my hands, I've been fixing some of the
bugs in 101 Starships, and came up with some questions I'd like answered:

- -----
Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated and
expanded, or a series of documents?

The advantage to an ever-expanding document is that ships can be added
incrementally, with the possibility of splitting the document thematically
(eg. into civilian and ,military books) at a future date.

The advantage of releasing a series of documents is that those who print
the book won't have to reprint the whole thing every time there's a change.

- -----
Would people like to see material other than a straight list of designs?
For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.

- -----
Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
book for each rule system?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:42:23 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

SD Mooney wrote:

>I prefer a submarine like model (or dreadnaught type model) to the Star
>- -Wars style fighters.... I really liked 2300's Star Cruiser, except for the
>bits when I hit a ship with 4 missiles at once and needed 40+ rolls to hit

I think that submarines are too stealthy to serve as a model for
Traveller space combat. Skimmers, on the other hand, are probably about
right.

>>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>
>But some girls wander by mistake.

Seems like you've got a slight case of overbombing.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:54:43 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

In a message dated 3/15/99 1:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< ----
 Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
 someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
 book for each rule system?
 
  >>

	I for one would just as soon see a separate book for each rule system.  

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:04:00 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

>Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated and
>expanded, or a series of documents?

I would personally prefer the single document, with periodic updates.

>Would people like to see material other than a straight list of designs?
>For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.

Definitely!

>Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
>someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
>book for each rule system?

I think so.  With so many rulesets in use, and die-hard users in each,
making more versions available can only increase the audience for such a
document.  Unless you can get large percentages of conversions for other
versions, it might be easier to simply include them in a single book.


Thad K. Sneed
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:03:16 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

.... I really liked 2300's Star Cruiser, except for the
>bits when I hit a ship with 4 missiles at once and needed 40+ rolls to hit
>...
>
Try the StarCruiser Lite rules that we use for the SC PBEM. You can find
them at :
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/1966/scl.htm
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:19:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Message Formats

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> While I'm at it, could people also set their software to use standard
> 80-character lines (or less)?  Again, the senders are probably not aware
> of it, but if you use lines that are more than 80 characters long then
> all your messsages come out
> like this
> with short extra lines following
> each long
> line and making things tough to
> read.
> 
> Does anyone know how people can find out what exactly their sending and
> how to fix it?  Is the "multi-part mime format" a Eudora thing or what?
> What about the line lengths?

Some people have mailed in using html mode, which generates the
multi-part messages.

In Netscape (which I use) these are handled in the Preferences -> Mail
and Groups section. (both Mac and PC) Go to Edit > Preferences, and
click on the plus next to Mail and Groups to expand it. Both of these
features are set in the Messages option.

Un-check 'Send HTML Mail by default'. This is checked on a default
installation.

Right underneath that is an option to set your message line lengths. It
defaults to checked and 72 characters in my setup (netscape communicator
4.06)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:34:33 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>> Especially the  K'kree.

A K'Kree Warfleet could eclipse the stars....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #284
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 285



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
re: STRIKER!
Re: Canonicity
re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: SecurityArms
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML
Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)
The Pak Wars?
Re: Weather tables

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:46:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

 "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:

>Hardware support is a problem, though. Unreal almost *requires* 3dfx. Quake
>2 is an OpenGL game. Jedi Knight uses Direct3D (I think). All of them ran
>on my PC at home without such support, but very poorly and at low
>resolution. But when I got a video card (with and ATI RagePro chipset) ...
>wow! Well, except for Unreal, that is.
>
>The only one of these I can think of that is currently out on the Mac side
>is Unreal.

Quake 1 is out for the Mac, and I believe some new version is due soon.
Unreal is out but is sick on its system resources. The port from Windows
shows to an extent. For Mac Software to ask for 90+ Mb RAM *or* 32Mb RAM
and 90 Mb Virtual Memory is something unheard of...

I 'sort of' run it on a PowerMac 6400 (200MHz 603e) with 56Mb RAM and 90 Mb
Virtual on, Basic 1Mb VRAM and no hardware acceleration. Slows down really
badly in combat, and update rate is slow.

Marathon screams in comparison, but that's not surprising.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:00:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: STRIKER!

"Garcia, Abel" <agarcia@US.RHODIA.COM>  wrote:

>Anyone know of any websites, or subscription lists, devoted to STRIKER?

>(TNE-Grognard)
Is that Striker (CT) or Striker II (TNE)?

I'm not aware of any, sorry. The Trav Tech list may have some discussion on
the design system side.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:57:41 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>> My gut feel is that it would be a problem, if only in the same way that
>> afterburners are (cracked runway anyone?). YMMV. It is possibly a problem
>> for space stations, but you could use a shuttle OMS type system instead.
>
>There should probably be the same net effect as for T-plates, methinks.  The
>art still shows a "thrust-like" plume of... something, even if it's just an
>ambiguous glow of some kind.

You mean a glow, kind of like the Millenium Falcon or the Starship Troopers
Transports? My take on this is that it isn't a problem safety wise (for
example, the Sulieman has a hatch between the two drives).

>> >Again, T-plates (amongst
>> >other manuever drives) were provided ....
>>
>> As an unofficial 'alternative'...
>
>The way HEPlaR/T-plates are presented in FF&S and Challenge wouldn't affect
>any of the source material, adventures, or campaigning in any way.

No, it would. Plasma is *hot*. The implications are nasty in an atmosphere
or a confined space. Plasma arc cutters can be in excess of 15,000 deg C
IIRC (certainly hotter than the surface of Sol). Dump a lot of this in an
atmosphere and you get instant drying of the air, and effects with water
vapour. Loads of clouds of condensation, and I would suspect a heat
generated shock wave. Think of a localised, directed nuke... perhaps Shadow
or one of the others could provide a better description... You don't need a
giant plume to cause problems with source material. The output from a
shuttle SRB is probably cooler, and throws out more combustion byproducts,
but look at the clouds of water vapour and heat it generates.


>The
>assumptions of refueling at gas giants would still hold true (though less fuel
>would be required), for the jump drives, etc.  Only difference is in
>particular designs, etc.  I contemplated having T-plates be what used pre-
>collapse and that the particulars of the technology would require that they be
>integrated with the computer and AG/G-comp in such a way that Virus would
>require that be replaced in the New Era, for a complete protection against
>infection.  But then I decided it didn't matter for me.  YMMV.  :-)

Thats a fair point. I don't mind HEPLaR, but my problems are with the
official killing of T-plates. I mean, you could just have easily handwaved
that T-plates are limited to 6G max, and keep HEPLaR unlimited. The cost
and solidity of HEPLaR would make it ideal for the RC - indeed, it could be
a distinction of Virus and the Regency.

Scenario idea - an RCES team encounters a T-Plate Sulieman, and destroys
it. Unknown to them, it is a deep contact Regency Scout....


>Was there any handwave given for how the ship they're fired at is still there
>when the plasma/fusion "projectile" arrives?

None I could see...

>> I like both; BL is too complex for anyone but serious gamers... it would
>> switch most of my players off..
>
>Note that I said B*R* or Battle Rider.

I did note that. Hence I said I like both...

>  BL is IMO only appropriate for the PCs
>vessel, and that wasn't too cumbersome for all the PCs to manage their own
>ship (and they're hardly 'serious gamers').  That level of detail, for the
>players ship anyways, is required and desired, IMO anyways.

My players tend to get turned off when a hex map appears... RPSCS is about
as heavy as they'll take. Hence BL is way over the top.

>> I have a problem with the GDW house system; it seemed over complex (much as
>> CT's combat does to me). You may disagree ;-/
>
>Huh?

<Erase and Rewind>

I have a problem with the GDW House System, as used with TNE, T2K 2.2, and
DC. It seems overly complex. YMMV. ;-)


>After the RC, I'd have to say maybe the Regency, though I have plans on
>running an near future Alternate Universe w/ 3D astrography (granted by Jim
>V's equally excellent Starmap v. 1.0) and Alternate Tech from FF&S.  It's
>looking very 2300AD, but I'm mostly gonna continue running the RC in the 1203
>for my upcoming set of campaigns.   Next, would have to follow the early
>Rebellion (Solomani Confederation), though I've never run anything outside of
>the RC or Regency except a one timer set *during* the Collapse (Virus hits,
>the sh*t hits the fan and find a way to survive/escape doom).

Interesting - my next campaign may well be M0, but there is a siren call
from the boxed set of Tarsus I acquired recently.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:00:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:52:24 -0600 ()
>> "WALDPORT, Oregon (AP) -- Three hundred miles offshore, the wreck of the
>> New Carissa finally sank Thursday after a Navy destroyer fired 70 shells
>> into the oil-laden hulk and a submarine drilled it with a torpedo.
>
>On the other hand, I recall during the Falklands War that after a single
>Exocet missile hit a British cruiser, the cruiser sank in minutes.

There is a slight difference in scale between any of the military ships the
RN lost in the Falklands Campaign, and a supertanker.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:05:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

 Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>>Oh, and you have to go buy Quake...not being a fan of twitch games, I
>Does this mean that my kids are downloading pireated software when they
>run Quake on the school computers?  Would the company that makes Quake be
>interested in sueign the school board for this?  (Maybe this would finally
>force the IT chaps to remove their heads from their rectal orifices and do
>something about the network.)

ISTR that you could get a shareware version of Quake much the same way that
you get a shareware version of Doom. iD wrote them both.

So the court case may not be likely :-/

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:59:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net> wrote:

>You may have 2 separate surface actions mingled.  The Brits didn't lose a
>cruiser, the Arger's lost one to a torp. The Brits lost the HMS Sheffield,
>a guided missile frigate to an Exocet.

RN Ships Lost
- -----------------

1) HMS Sheffield	Type 42 Guided Missile Destroyer - 4 May 1982
Cause - Exocet Hit, warhead did not detonate but started fire. Sheffield's
fire main was ruptured, and pumps out. Abandoned when fire became
uncontrolable. Fire burned out 5 May. Taken under tow, but capsized in bad
weather and sank.

2) HMS Ardent 	Type 21 ASW Frigate -  21 May 1982
Cause - Hit by at least 4 (detonating)  500lb bombs, plus rockets, and sank.

3) HMS Antelope	Type 21 ASW Frigate - 23 May 1982
Cause - hit by multiple 500lb bombs, sinks 24 May when unexploded bomb
being defused detonated exploding magazine.

4) HMS Coventry	Type 42 Guided Missile Destroyer - 25 May 1982
Cause - 3 500lb bombs hit port side of ship and exploded, mortally wounding
the ship. HMS Broadsword also damaged.

5) RFA Sir Tristram and RFA Sir Galahad - 7 June 1982
Cause - Multiple bomb hits.

Other British ships lost -
- ------------------------
a) Atlantic Conveyor - Exocet

Other ships Damaged
- -------------------------
a) HMS Glamorgan County Class (Sometimes refered to as a Cruiser) 12 June 1982
WAS NOT SUNK. Exocet fired from back of truck, hits rear helicopter deck.
(This could be the Exocet/Cruiser reference made)
b) HMS Antrim
c) HMS Broadsword
d) HMS Plymouth
e) HMS Argonaut
f) HMS Brilliant

>Well the sinking can be attributed to cost savings measures by the British
>navy.  The ship was a frigate and some years back the Brits started making
>their guided missile FG's out of high-tech aluminum alloy.

The ship was a destroyer, not a frigate. Primary role is AA, but has a
secondary ASW fit out.

> It was lighter,
>very hard, resistant to the corrosion of saltwater and to barnacles so it
>saved tons of money on maintenance.  As an added plus when decommissioned
>it brought top dollars as scrap.  The drawback became painfully clear when
>the missile hit.  The Exocet has a shaped charge so it penetrated the hull
>like hot butter then exploded inside to cause max damage.

Most sources claim the Exocet did not detonate

> The fires were
>so intense that the aluminum hull began to melt and burn at a much lower
>temp then a steel alloy hull would, the fumes were toxic which hampered
>fire fighting efforts.  Now I can't remember exactly but I don't think the
>Exocet sank the Sheffield but instead it was abandoned and the Royal navy
>scuttled her

She sank under tow in bad weather when they wanted to refit her in the UK.

The big Sheffield and Coventry had steel Hulls (the superstructure could
have been part aluminium). They were Type 42's, which were basically cut
down Type 81s (HMS Bristol). The aluminium problem was found with the Type
21 frigates (Ardent and Antelope), which were predominantly aluminium.
Sheffield's fire systems where down after the hit.

Cheers,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:05:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

><< Assuming that Marc doesn't farm out the game entirely to Steve Jackson
> (sadly, this seems increasingly likely, given the excellent quality of
> 'Far Trader' and 'First In') >>
>
>what's wrong with this as long as Marc does the design work and Steve just
>prints it verbatim?

How about it cannibalises the GT market, which might not be attractive to SJG?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:18:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>That gibes with what I heard. I still sense some design flaws in the ship. By
>this description, it sounds like the design didn't have enough combat
>redundancy in her DC equipment, though the hit location sounds like bad luck
>as well. I also vaguely read somplace that she lacked a close in weapon system
>and ECM suite, so the missile couldn't by shot down/jammed. Lastly I heard
>that the missile was picked up very late on radar (last 30-40 seconds of
>flight?), which if true makes me wonder about her sensor suite.

IIRC her air search radar was off at the time, and she was discussing with
Coventry (another Type 42 in the screen) how to handle ghost images. She
was watching radar images relayed from the carrier HMS Hermes some twenty
nautical miles away from the direction of the attack. ISTR this gave them
something like 10-20 seconds warning?

There wasn't a CIWS, but I believe there was an ECM suite and a chaff
dispenser. But because the air search radar was off they didn't see the
Exocet.

Additionally, thanks to political inspired cuts, ISTR the 42's only have
one fore-aft corridor (IIRC) and are quite cramped. These were the same
cuts that lead to the RN sneaking the Invincible through as a 'through-deck
ASW Cruiser', not a carrier.

>To be fair; I also heard that these flaws were redressed after the war. The
>vessels gained ECM, and a close in weapon system (either CIWS or Goalkeeper; I
>can't remember...), and the RN adopted an AEW helo, and better fighter
>director and control precedures, so they wouldn't have to leave lone ships on
>radar picket.

I know the CIWS/Goalkeeper was installed.

The AEW helo took the axed Nimrod AEW (Searchwater?) Radar and mounted it
on a Sea King. One of my friends (ex Type 42) told me that they managed to
get these up in weather which precluded launches from one of the US
carriers in a NATO exercise.

> It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal.

Ahem. There have been a number of Ark Royals. I can think of three this
century off the top of my head.

Carrier Sunk in WWII.
Carrier Scrapped late 70s
Carrier in service now

I seem to recall that there have been a number before this.

>I am concerned that the new supersonic seaskimming missiles can not be shot
>down by rotary cannon anymore. I hope that a new system in the works to
>replace CIWS and Goalkeeper...

Also, I saw a programme a while ago which mentioned that they were
developing the equivalent of MIRVs for normal missiles.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:22:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)

Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
> Rathon was a desert world with less than 1% water. "Houses" fought over
> wells and water rights. Their was one particularly nasty house called the
> Mule's. (I'm starting to think he may have been looking at AD&D Dark Sun
> material) Their was no law or governent. I think it was an Amber or Red
> Zone... either way, it was a place you didn't want to go.

..but I guess inspiration has to come from somewhere. It was great fun
> hunting down "skin-jobs" (aka replicants from Blade Runner) and red haired
> Harconen's (sp)

Inspiration for the desert part was from Dune, the 'Harkonnens'
reference nails it. The Harkonnen's were the Atriedes great enemy, who
got them exiled to Dune in the first place.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:37:38 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>I hate to intrude reality, but according to a quick check, the 127mm gun is
>superseded only by the CIS 130mm gun (several versions).  IIRC, once the
>Iowas were moored,the largest guns afloat belonged to, of all people, the
>Chileans, who still maintain the O'Higgins, the ex-USS Brooklyn, a US CL
>launched in 1936, with 15 152mm guns, and Peru, with two ex-De Ruyters, also
>armed with "puny" 152mm guns.  Note that this is from a source from 1992.
>It is possible that even these behomeths are no longer in commision, I'd
>have to go to the library to find out.

Actually, the web will do the trick, if you know where to look;

from http://www.uss-salem.org/navhist/cruisers/ca-cl1.htm, Andrew Toppan's
excellent Naval History web site (and of course, web site to the neat-o and
nearby [to me] U.S.S. Salem museum);


CL 40   Brooklyn
        Built by New York Navy.  Laid down 12 March 1935, launched
        30 Nov 1936, commissioned 30 Sept 1937.  Decommissioned 30 Jan 1946,
        to Chile as O'Higgins 9 Jan 1951, stricken 22 Jan 1951.
        Damaged by grounding 12 Aug 1975, used as stationary accomodations
        ship, refitted 1977-1978, recommissioned.  Decomissioned 14 Jan 1992,
        sunk 3 Nov 1992 under tow to India for scrapping.


Peru seems to have kept one of theirs;


Aguirre (De Ruyter class) helicopter cruiser

Displacement: 12,250 tons full load
[snip for space]
Armament:... 1 dual 152mm/52, 3 dual 57mm/80 DP...[snip]
CH 84   Aguirre    1953/76        Ex-De Zeven Provincien


Which means that Peru has the biggest "big guns" afloat to this day, unless
they've decommissioned her by now (Andrew Toppan is well known for keeping
up with such things).

Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
(certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).

OBTRAV: I bet the predecessor to the Tigress is in "permanent orbit"
somewhere as a museum ship.  What would it take to recommission such a
ship?  Would it be worth it?  Current experience says absolutely not, but
then again maybe space is a less harsh mistress than the sea to the vessels
which sail her.

On the other hand, how about just a plot to seize her and activate her main
weaponry just once at a major population center?  Sounds like a good use
for those AHL deckplans...

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:47:37 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

For anyone who is interested in the design, a basic article on it can be
found at:
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/p90.htm

Enjoy,

William

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:48:44 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

|>On the other hand, I recall during the Falklands War that after a single
|>Exocet missile hit a British cruiser, the cruiser sank in minutes.
|
|There is a slight difference in scale between any of the military ships the
|RN lost in the Falklands Campaign, and a supertanker.


There is also a big difference between a five inch shell and an Exocet.

This reminds me of another good point that I was to busy to bring up
earlier.  Missiles, like the Exocet are frightningly fast and deadly, much
like some of the little units that have been discussed on this list, lately.
But I saw some footage of the Falklands battles, and in one of them I
watched a Phalanx system shred an incoming missile just seconds before it
would have hit the ship.  Most of the missile debris landed in the water
close to the ship, with some smaller shrapnel actually hitting it.

ObTrav: Is there a Phalanx system available for my little prirate buddies?
Wouldn't the SDBs be surprised!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:56:15 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans - 3D, VRML

My .02cr worth - 

I'd just add I use the $10 StrataVision 3D 4.0. Very nice software, but
I'm not sure if that deal is still available. 

I tried Pixels - The telemarketing was _so_ intense (telephone and email
every other day) that I had to threaten them with the Attorney General's
office before they would stop. I nuked their software and promised
myself I would never use or recommend it to anyone; not even enemies.

Do not use their package.

William

> NOTE: for all of you who do not know what it is, POV-Ray is an extremely
> capable 3-D raytracing program, but it does NOT include a modeller. for
> that you'll need other programs.
> 
> Two nice 3-D programs that do do raytracing (for the Mac) are:
> 
> StrataVision 3D 4.0 ($10 s/h from Stata www.strata3d.com) a gimme to
> entice you to upgrade to their current version.
> 
> Pixels 3D 2.1.4, a free download from www.pixels3d.com, plus a 6mb PDF
> download of the manual. You have to register it to keep a nag notice
> away, but the registration's free (except for the telemarketing to get
> you to upgrade to _their_ current product)
> 
> - --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:43:55 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

>
>Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated and
>expanded, or a series of documents?

I kinda like the single document, but maybe an "update document" could be
made that includes only the altered pages. Adobe Acrobat can print out
single pages, and those could then be substituted for the pages in a binder
or something.

>Would people like to see material other than a straight list of designs?
>For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.


I would like to see more modules, especially for TL 9 ships :) I know
STARSHIPS is going to have that, but if it's "unofficial" anyway, why not?


>Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
>someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
>book for each rule system?


If you're going to do 101 Starships for other systems (CT, MT etc.) I
reccomend separate documents; then those who have no use for the GT stats
don't have to print them out too.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:36:36 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

- ----------
> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
> Date: 15. maaliskuuta 1999 20:42
> 
> -----
> Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated and
> expanded, or a series of documents?
> 
A series of ducuments.

> -----
> Would people like to see material other than a straight list of designs?
> For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.
> 
Extra material is ok, especially optional rules.

> -----
> Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
> someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
> book for each rule system?

The usefulness of the ships is vastly improved, if the stats in different
formats are published at the same time.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:15:16 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)

I'm not too sure that being sent to the sole source of the most powerful
substance in the known universe could really be called 'exile'...
Although I must admit there doesn't seem much difference between being sent
into exile and jumping before being pushed...

<<SNIP>>
> The Harkonnen's were the Atriedes great enemy, who
>got them exiled to Dune in the first place.
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
<<UNSNIP>>

How did the Fremen survive on Arrakis?
On the Sand-which-is there!!

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:19:17 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: The Pak Wars?

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes: 
>>> Especially the  K'kree.
>A K'Kree Warfleet could eclipse the stars....

   All the reason for the PAK to target them for a quick and nasty
extermination!



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Tatoos are the leisure suit of the 90s.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:38:31 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Weather tables

Richard Fields writes:
"Most of worlds I've detailed while in planetary systems habital zones have
less than friendly environments. These have helped to provide (usualy
ignored) background for story telling and scene setting.

Anyone with other info to add?"

	I would certainly expect that 'unfriendly' environments would tend 
	to greatly outnumber 'friendly' ones, but then breathable 
	atmospheres might me much rarer than Traveller makes them. I like 
	having some awful weather for the PCs to deal with (or at least add
	some background for my own enjoyment:)), but rendering too many 
	worlds bad-weathered seems un-traveller to me. Just MHO.

Ian

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #285
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 286



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=
Font Conversion
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Spofulum Protectors
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: 3D STARMAPPING
Fast Bunks
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Ocean-going Star/Spaceports
Re: G:T and sensors
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Fusion Guns
Re: Fusion Guns
Ark Royal (was: Civilian ships etc.)
Re: URL Redirecting
Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:34:56 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traveller:=A0_The_Pak_Wars?=

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:34:33 +0000 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
writes:
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>> Especially the  K'kree.
>
>A K'Kree Warfleet could eclipse the stars....
>
>Dom



Just make for easier targeting, just point and shoot..........

JimC (aka Pakman)
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:47:06 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Font Conversion

I think I can get revision 2 of 101 Starships out this week, with a bit of
help from the list.

What I need is someone to provide me with a TrueType version of Omni. (I
have the Type 1 font, but my home computer can't run ATM without crashing
with a bus error.) 

This would be useful even once I get back to work, because my team leader
frowns on my using school computers for gaming (although he uses school
equipment to make colour copies for his daughter - go figure), so doing
everything at home would be much less hassle.

Omni is the font used for the original little black books. Something that
looks close would by just as good.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:32:14 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

*The* Heretic (tm) writes:

>>* Quick design sequences a la 'High Guard' for each vehicle type.
>
>A la QDSS and the GT modules.  I've never understood the reverance
>some of you have for HG, either tactically or as a design system.

Nope. What we don't want is a QSDS which is basically a list of FFS tables.
Make it abstract and approximate the values (if necessary). Let FFS3 be the
design system where you can tweak and shave. I can design a HG ship in less
than 30 min. QSDS took twice that *until* I got Rob Prior's Mac Software
Version which takes 5 minutes...

Be careful with those comments on HG, oh heretic!

"There is only one Traveller and its product is High Guard (2)."

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:33:19 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Spofulum Protectors

 Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>Remember that for Tree of Life Virus to work on you, you have to be the
>right age, which is about 42 (coincidence?).  It was my impression that
>Ditzie was somewhat younger than this.  If you are too young the smell
>does not compel you too eat it as you are supposed to be breeding.  If
>you are too old it will not work, although it will probably kill you.

You're forgetting Uncle Hengie, the current owner of FS....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:05:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Traveller <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

On 15 Mar, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>  Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> >what's wrong with this as long as Marc does the design work and Steve
> >just prints it verbatim?

> How about it cannibalises the GT market, which might not be attractive to
> SJG?

IMO

G:T encourages people to buy Gurps Basic, Compendium, Space, Ultra Tech,
Vehicles...

Once you have all the Gurps stuff, you might want to use Gurps for
Fantasy, Cyberpunk and lots of other stuff (ie more book sales).

Selling T5 would separate the G:T stuff from the rest of Gurps
and reduce the number of Gurps converts it makes.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
Phil Kitching on postmark.design@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:17:43 -0500
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: 3D STARMAPPING

Try this site.
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html
I know almost nothing about this subject. I hope this helps.
Alan
> 
> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:26:15 +0000
> From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
> Subject: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
> 
> Has anyone on this list ever follishly try to render the known universe
> in 3d as opposed to 2D?
> 
> I posted on the TML years ago my theory ( "which is my theory, is mine"
> Mizzz Anne Elk) that space is three dimensional but the 2d universe of
> Travller is what the Universe looks to our primitive monkey-minds while
> interpreting JUMPSPACE. Going sub-light or near super-luminal would get
> you somewhere else if you left one hex/ star system to go to another. In
> Jumpspace a J-1 gets you to Prometheus  on the subsector map, but if you
> left in a daedelus-type ship you'd be going the wrong direction and
> destination  if you followed Jump navigation exit vertices.
> 
> The 3D space of FGU's Space Atlases for Space Opera inspired me to
> attempt to create a 3d universe for Trav. whilst trying to maintain the
> borders and  choke-points (the rifts etc.) of the 2D Trav universe. I've
> since lost my maps and data, after all this was done ten years ago, and
> if I had it now, I'd ROFLMAO at who stupid and primitive it was. Max
> Lambertini's WARP programs didn't exist then, and I doubt the PC I had
> at that time could of handled it.
> 
> I'm not a math or physicist of any order and I can barely get the
> NavAids and Stellar Cartography Programs I have to produce, but I'd like
> to converse on list/ off list with anybody who was/is foolish to work on
> something like this. Not having any Stellar depth to the galaxy (where's
> the Z axis?) really Bugs the 'RGif'zt LACH (Kaferese ;-) out of Me!
> 
> MUSASHI
> (CT,MT,TNE, T4, G:T, T5?????   I''m sooooo connnnnnfussssed?!!?)
> 
> BTW Never call MT   T2, Cameron and the copyright police will be out fer
> blood an' souls. I hear he's almost as ruthless as Disney: The Evil
> Empire  {:-(
> 
> ------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:16:51 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Fast Bunks

	A friend of mine read my article on Fast bunks on Freelance Traveller and
added these comments, I thought I'd pass along

Pete Zollers wrote
 <>

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:22:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/15/99 11:29:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< How about it cannibalises the GT market, which might not be attractive to
SJG? >>

yes; that's SJG's view, which I don't agree with...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:28:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/15/99 11:42:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
writes:

<< CL 40   Brooklyn
         Built by New York Navy.  Laid down 12 March 1935, launched
         30 Nov 1936, commissioned 30 Sept 1937.  Decommissioned 30 Jan 1946,
         to Chile as O'Higgins 9 Jan 1951, stricken 22 Jan 1951.
         Damaged by grounding 12 Aug 1975, used as stationary accomodations
         ship, refitted 1977-1978, recommissioned.  Decomissioned 14 Jan 1992,
         sunk 3 Nov 1992 under tow to India for scrapping. >>


what a sad end for a good ship...:-( I wish they would have turned her into a
museum and put her next to the Intrepid...

Ob Trav: adventure nugget: PC's either steal a ship on the way to the
scrapyard, or prevent some wiseguys from doing the same thing ala Zid
Racheale...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:20:39 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/15/99 11:28:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal.
 
 Ahem. There have been a number of Ark Royals. I can think of three this
 century off the top of my head.
 
 Carrier Sunk in WWII.

 <<<Carrier Scrapped late 70s>>> This is the one I meant....:-)

Carrier in service now >>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:30:05 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/15/99 11:54:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
swordworlder@clinic.net writes:

<< ObTrav: Is there a Phalanx system available for my little prirate buddies?
 Wouldn't the SDBs be surprised!  >>

yeah; it's called the triple beam laser turret, configured for ten turrets in
a single battery...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:51:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

<Foy Family>
Has anyone on this list ever follishly try to render the known universe
in 3d as opposed to 2D?
</Foy Family>

There have been a couple of attempts to take the official Traveller
universe maps and make them 3D.  IIRC, someone tried it with the stars
surrounding Terra, trying to get them to match real distances and
canonical distance as closely as possible.  Anyone remember who that was?
It's possible my description of the attempt is way off...

<Foy Family>
I posted on the TML years ago my theory ( "which is my theory, is mine"
Mizzz Anne Elk) that space is three dimensional but the 2d universe of
Travller is what the Universe looks to our primitive monkey-minds while
interpreting JUMPSPACE. Going sub-light or near super-luminal would get
you somewhere else if you left one hex/ star system to go to another. In
Jumpspace a J-1 gets you to Prometheus  on the subsector map, but if you
left in a daedelus-type ship you'd be going the wrong direction and
destination  if you followed Jump navigation exit vertices.
</Foy Family>

Ya, I've always liked that one.  The only problem is that it doesn't jibe
with some canonical references (assuming you care about such stuff) to
sublight ships travelling, for example, from earth to the Marches.  Of
course, if you assume that there is a relatively close relation between
the 3d "real" universe and the 2d "jump"  universe, this is largely
alleviated.  

For my own part, what I've toyed with (though never actually used in
Traveller itself) is the idea of keeping the standard 8 x 10 subsector map
and then giving each star a Z-coordinate from 1 to 8, thus making it
8x8x10. The Z value is just listed in the middle of the star's little
circular symbol.  

Figuring out a travel distance is simple: You just count the number of
hexes from departure to destination on the map and then subtract their
Z-coordinates to get the vertical separation.  These numbers are either
plugged into the pythagorean formula (D=sqrt(A^2+B^2)), or you can make up
a little 6x6 table with all the appropriate values in it, like so: 

	1          2          3          4          5          6

1	1.4142     2.2361     3.1623     4.1231     5.0990     6.0828
2	2.2361     2.8284     3.6056     4.4721     5.3852     6.3246
3	3.1623     3.6056     4.2426          5      5.831     6.7082
4	4.1231     4.4721          5     5.6569     6.4031     7.2111
5	5.0990     5.3852     5.8310     6.4031     7.0711     7.8102
6	6.0828     6.3246     6.7082     7.2111     7.8102     8.4853

You can either round the values up to determine what rating of jump drive
you need to reach a given destination, reasoning that the jump number is
the absolute upper limit of a jump drive's range (and it's going to take a
long time to travel even .0828 parsecs through normal space) in which case
travel distances are:

    1  2  3  4  5  6

1   2  3  4  5  6  7
2   3  3  4  5  6  7
3   4  4  5  5  6  7
4   5  5  5  6  7  8
5   6  6  6  7  8  8
6   7  7  7  8  8  9

or you can round off, reasoning that jump drives can actually go up to .5
parsecs further than listed.  Travel distances are then:

    1  2  3  4  5  6

1   1  2  3  4  5  6
2   2  3  4  4  5  6
3   3  4  4  5  6  7
4   4  4  5  6  6  7
5   5  5  6  6  7  8
6   6  6  7  7  8  8

If multiple stars share the same hex (i.e., are "on top" of each other),
you have to split it up to list them, but this isn't a big problem.  I did
this for one of my own SFRPG systems and it worked very well. 

This system is much easier (IMHO) for most players and refs to visualize
and use than many systems which either don't use any sort of grid or which
use decimal values of X, Y and Z coordinates.  

BTW, in case you don't know, there's _alot_ of stuff on the web about 3D
star mapping.  Some of it is very beautiful, though I have doubts about
its utility for (non-computerized) RPGs.

Ciao,
Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:28:05 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports

Hey Rob!

Time to expand your starport modules!

According to MSNBC, the US Govt has approved
the initial launch by Sea Launch. For those
of you unfamiliar with the story, Sea Launch,
an international consortium that includes the
Seattle-based Boeing Co. as a 40 percent partner,
will use a Ukrainian-built booster rocket and
a Russian-built upper stage for an unmanned
demonstration launch in the Pacific Ocean. 
Liftoff is scheduled for 5:18 p.m. ET March 26.

The launch platform is a converted self-propelled
oil-drilling platform. The rockets are to be
transported to the launch site, about 1,400 miles
south of Hawaii, and controlled afterward from a
separate assembly and command ship.

For the full story, check out:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/199329.asp

ObTrav: This is a *great* way of surprising PCs
who are attempting to land on any world with
a Hydro rating of 9+. Imagine trying to land a
subsidized merchant on high seas in a thin
atmosphere! 

This is also a good reason to separate a crew
from their ship; their pilot simply may not be
good enough to meet local Traffic Control 
regulations covering at-sea starport landings.
They can either pay cargo shipment costs to/from
orbit or pay for an interface shuttle.

Or force them to use the equivalent of a harbor
pilot, allowing for additional costs or even
a way to board a hijack/terrorist/repo team.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:11:16 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: G:T and sensors

>I'm trying to find a good defense against fighters, since I don't like'em.
Do you really need one? Gurps T armours seem so thick that essentially no
weapon a fighter can carry can even scratch a battleship...except for kinetic
impact missiles or contact nukes, both easily shot down by decent point
defence.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:13:05 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>Ex-coast guard friend of mine pointed out a major reason why that freighter was
>very difficult to sink -- if you take a cargo ship and fill it with empty
>55-gallon drums, you're going to pretty much have to disintegrate it to make it
>sink, since flooded cargo compartments will still float...

Note for those who think spaceships should explode or disintegrate in space
combat when they run out of some kind of hitpoints - massive pounding on 
this freighter didn't have that effect...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:07:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I think that submarines are too stealthy to serve as a model for
>Traveller space combat. Skimmers, on the other hand, are probably about
>right.

Skimmers?

>>>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>>
>>But some girls wander by mistake.
>
>Seems like you've got a slight case of overbombing.

... which results in a black planet.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:09:03 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

"Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> wrote:

>.... I really liked 2300's Star Cruiser, except for the
>>bits when I hit a ship with 4 missiles at once and needed 40+ rolls to hit
>>...
>>
>Try the StarCruiser Lite rules that we use for the SC PBEM. You can find
>them at :
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/1966/scl.htm

I got it last time you mentione dit - it looks interesting, especially the
tie to FT. I'm putting the finishing touches to Traveller FT if you're
interested in seing a copy.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:15:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Fusion Guns

Following a discussion with David Thomas (author of 101 Governments, and
(The Magnificent) Space Dogs), and the ongoing HEPLaR discussion with
TravTNE:

How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:23:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

SD Mooney writes:
> 
> How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
> plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?

You make it _extremely_ reflective, and guide it with a magnetic field. 
Incidentally, plasma guns are probably actually kinetic penetrators, not
thermal penetrators.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:37:11 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Ark Royal (was: Civilian ships etc.)

Date sent:      	Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:18:28 +0000
From:           	SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

'>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>> It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal.

>Ahem. There have been a number of Ark Royals. I can think of three this
>century off the top of my head.

>Carrier Sunk in WWII.
>Carrier Scrapped late 70s
>Carrier in service now

>I seem to recall that there have been a number before this.

Ark Royal (1) - Served in Elizabeth I's navy during the Armarda.
Ark Royal (2) - The first dedicated RN seaplane carrier. Originally a collier
     purchased on the stocks in 1912, the modifications amounted a rebuild
     from the keel up. Served during the 1st WW. Renamed Pegasus in 1934
     to free up the name for a new carrier. Served as a convoy escort in the
     2nd WW. Sold 1949, broken up 1950.
Ark Royal (3) - First purpose built RN carrier since the experimental Hermes.
     Commissioned 1938, sunk bu U 41 1941
Ark Royal (4) - Laid down in 1942 as a followup to the Indomitable's. Her
     completion was delayed by the end of the 2nd WW. Commissioned in
     1955 to a heavily modified design. Scheduled for decommissioning in 1975
     but kept in service by cannibalising Eagle (her semi sister). Finally
     decommisioned in 1979 and broken up in 1980
Ark Royal (5) - An Invincible class CVAS (attack antisubmarine carrier).
     Commissioned in 1983(?). Currently laid up pending refit due to lack of
     funds

And now from my IW notes

Ark Royal (6) - Last RN carrier. Built during the 21st Century.
Ark Royal (7) - One of the first Terran Confederation Missile Boat Tenders.
     Built by the European Union after first contact. Served during the 1st and
     2nd Interstellar Wars.
Ark Royal (8) - Missile Boat Tender. Served during the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th
     Interstellar Wars. Lost at Apishal in 2239.
Ark Royal (9) - Meson gun armed Battlecruiser. Served in the 9th and Nth
     Interstellar Wars. Lost during the RoM.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:41:05 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: URL Redirecting

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:39:47 -0500, "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

(quoting me)

>|That's OK if you know or can control what browser your visitors
>|are using.  Not everyone uses Nutscrape or Infernal Exploder,
>|yet; there's still quite a bit of Lynx out there, believe it or
>|not - not to mention the less-capable browsers, like Opera and
>|Mosaic.  A server-side solution can work for all browsers.

>Our idea is to offer something like <freelancetraveller.downport.com> so
>that you can dispence with the redirector.  I don't know if you've noticed,
>but the redirect server is down two or three times per week, sometimes for
>hours at a time.  I'm not saying that 9netave's servers never have down
>time, but the redirector is just one more thing that can go wrong.  These
>"virtual domain" names incur a set up fee, but there's no monthly charge to
>Downport.com, as they are part of the server charge.

I hadn't noticed that come.to was down that often; I check it
sporadically, and I've never been disappointed.

Certainly, subdomains of the form *.downport.com are highly
desirable; in fact, I think when I was invited aboard, I
mentioned that as a suggestion for a future possibility.  The
benefit of a come.to-type redirecting URL is in many ways similar
to having an email address at HotMail, iName, Juno, Deja News,
and so on - if, for some reason, your physical location is
subject to disappearance at any moment (such as has happened
several times to Freelance Traveller - but hopefully no more),
one does not have to chase down everyone that has one's URL and
tell them to change it.  Instead, give out the redirector URL,
and if the real URL changes, just have come.to re-point the URL,
and you're fine - nobody needs to know that you're elsewhere.
Now that I'm with Downport, I give out both URLs, and intend to
continue doing so, for those reasons, and because the come.to
URLs are so memorable.  I'm not ashamed (far from it!) of being
associated with Downport; but I do recognize the value of
memorable names and URLs.  If I was willing to spend more cash on
Freelance Traveller, I'd be buying FreelanceTraveller.com, and
looking for someone to host it.  But, in my estimation, domain
hosting services cost more than I am currently willing to spend,
so the dream remains a dream for the time being.  The URL itself
(i.e., the interNIC registration) is a trivial cost; if I could
get a free permanent T1 or better, and a powerful enough machine,
also for free, I'd set up FreelanceTraveller.com before you could
say it - because it's "marketing".  Were I not beaten to the
punch, and had the same resources as Downport, I'd probably have
tried for Traveller.com, or perhaps TravellerRPG.com, as the host
domain for Traveller sites (of course, subject to approval from
Marc; those are domain names that I think he has a legitimate
moral first claim on).  Marketing is also why I chose the name
"Freelance Traveller" for the site; it identifies the entire
mindset nearly perfectly, preserves the association with
Traveller while not asserting officialness, and has that "feel"
of adventure that is suggested by the term "freelance" (from
"free lance", a medieval knight not bound to a lord - one who
could sell his services).  And the same kind of logic is followed
with respect to some of the section names - and to the V3 URL.
Think of your domain name and website URL as advertising, both
for your site and for the topic that your site is about.  'Cause
it _is_.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:55:17 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> Hey Rob!
> 
> Time to expand your starport modules!
<snipped>

Hey Rob,

Where is the Beanstalk? I'dthink that there would be a lot of medium and
high tech worlds, in particular the high-pop ones that would use some
type of beanstalk rather than have multi-mega-ton star ships flying over
their heads.

Mike 

> This is also a good reason to separate a crew
> from their ship; their pilot simply may not be
> good enough to meet local Traffic Control
> regulations covering at-sea starport landings.
> They can either pay cargo shipment costs to/from
> orbit or pay for an interface shuttle.
> 
> Or force them to use the equivalent of a harbor
> pilot, allowing for additional costs or even
> a way to board a hijack/terrorist/repo team.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:35:55 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> 

> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted in

> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the deckplans

> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures cranked

> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans

> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the

> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with the

> outline of the ship's hull when landed?  This would require the ship to come

> in for a landing and rotate a little past parallel to the ground to get all

> the landing pads down.  I tried it with keeping the centerline of the ship

> parallel to the ground and it just looks HORRIBLE!!!  Not to mention the

> fact that the struts have to be really close to the centerline....


 The rear struts ARE pretty close to centerline as I recall, but since the
Sulieman is THREE stories tall at the rear (not the FIVE story monster
depicted in G:T), there is plenty of room in the ventral spaces. The front
jack also has a fair amount of room to originate from.
 As for the ship being level when parked, I suspect that the jacks in later
models (True Trav TL of 12+) are probably adaptable to local conditions,
so the ship can have whatever level it needs to have relative to the ground.

 The only grounded Scouts that I found in my first look is the aft view
on page 34 of JTAS#5, and page 87 in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (a top
down shot). I'm sure there was at least one such picture in the
DGP stuff, but I'll have to dig.
 The pic on page 93 of the MT Rebellion Sourcebook is actually a Gazelle's
Gig, but the basic lines are similar.

GypsyComet

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #286
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 287



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Auction of GDW Classic Traveller books 
GT (Was Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?)
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Beanstalks
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: Spofulum Protectors
Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)
Re: Dr. Who Parody
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: Font Conversion
Re: Beanstalks
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
HK-ACR
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Re: Fusion Guns
Re: Ditzie does Gauss Guns
Re: HK-ACR
Re: HK-ACR
Couple new pics up
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:20:54 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Auction of GDW Classic Traveller books 

  Sorry for the bandwidth if this doesn't interest you, but a friend is
getting rid of his Trav stuff and some of you might want these items.

Rules:
1) All e-mail to:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca     (_not_ the TML, please)
2) Purchaser pays all shipping charges (i.e., insurance is extra); Canada
 Post (preferred) or UPS. Postage would be around $1.50 US per booklet for
 small shipments in bubble-pak envelopes.
3) Payment by _US Postal Service_ Postal Money Order, unless agreed otherwise.
 Items will be shipped only after payment is received. 
4) Minimum bids are listed; all amounts are $US. For simplicities sake I'll
 e-mail updates to bidders on Wednesday and Friday, and close the auction on
 Saturday, 2300 PST.
5) All items are in excellent to near mint condition unless otherwise noted.

 GDW - Classic Traveller:
 $7  Book 4 - Mercenary - near mint (later printing "No. 304", with back blurb)
 $4  Supp 4 - Citizens of the Imperium - very good
 $8  Adv. 1 - The Kinunir - near mint
 $7  Adv. 4 - Leviathan - near mint
 $5  D.A. 2 - Across the Bright Face / Mission on Mithril - very good
 $6  JTAS #12 (includes Special Supplement 1 - Merchant Prince, never removed) 
     - very good except for tearing where price sticker removed. Amber Zones, 
     Virushi, Striker stuff including Wiseman on Marine Task Force organization.

 $15  Boxed set of first edition LBB's: Book 1: Characters and Combat, Book
2: Starships, Book 3: Worlds and Adventures. Books are in excellent
condition; the
box itself is in poor shape. Box has an older company logo: "GD". The books
back covers have only the red stripe - no book identifier. Content oddities
include: Book 1 - lots of minor wording & layout changes. No Combat Armour! No
sign of TAS Form 2 - character sheet! Book 2 has refs to J-torps, pirates occur
on 12 exactly only (p.36). The Travel Time formula is on page one without any
fancy illo's. Book 3 has a "Jump Route" table (linking starport types) on p.2,
and TAS Form 6 is on p. 3, unlabelled, without the borders around the hex-grid.

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:29:29 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GT (Was Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?)

>IMO
>
>G:T encourages people to buy Gurps Basic, Compendium, Space, Ultra Tech,
>Vehicles...
>
>Once you have all the Gurps stuff, you might want to use Gurps for
>Fantasy, Cyberpunk and lots of other stuff (ie more book sales).
>
>Selling T5 would separate the G:T stuff from the rest of Gurps
>and reduce the number of Gurps converts it makes.
>
>Phil Kitching

Is there something wrong with liking GURPS? I've played it since it first
came out, and enjoy it a lot. You might not; that's your choice. Steve
Jackson Games is a COMPANY. They have to make money, or they go under. So
yes, they want to sell books. Lots of books. So did GDW and every other game
company that has ever existed.

This comment also presupposes that a person would a.) suddenly get
interested in playing other genres just because of GURPS and b.) decide to
drop whatever system they're using in favor of GURPS. This does not
neccesarily follow, although I'm sure SJG wouldn't complain if it did.
I, for instance, as much as I like GURPS, will not use it for superheroes
(because I think Champions is superior in that genre), or Star Trek (the
Last Unicorn game works well for that). I do use it for Traveller because,
frankly, it does what I want to do for Traveller better than any version of
the game I have yet seen. Note I said what I want to do; this might not
apply to others.

GURPS Traveller is doing the Traveller community a service, even those who
do not choose to buy it; it is demonstrating that there is still commercial
viability in Traveller, a fact that may have been in doubt in a lot of minds
after the IG fiasco. It is very likely that if GT failed, there would be no
T5. It's existence and success means there very likely will be.


Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:00:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

 
> >A la QDSS and the GT modules.  I've never understood the reverance
> >some of you have for HG, either tactically or as a design system.
> 
> Nope. What we don't want is a QSDS which is basically a list of FFS tables.
> Make it abstract and approximate the values (if necessary). Let FFS3 be the


I always liked the idea of redoin HG, but with all the components
built under a common system (so you could add on new stuff). HG+
would abstract anything that can be expressed in terms of total ship
tonnage.

For example we know the fuel and jump can be ballparked this way.
You can also set abstract standards for crew quarters, control, etc.
HG still deals with weapons on a weapon by weapon bvasis, so that
and defenses are tables of completed FFS systems. There might be
other simplifications.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:14:53 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Beanstalks

[XBoat stamp 43489uirjds89743 Cr100]

A: Piiturs.Mikal@TML@Terra.pla@Sol.sys
D: IIguraaskaan.Raab@General.Products.Branch.com@Terra.pla@Sol.sys
R: Beanstalks

Dear Sir:

It has come to our attention that you have a custom order for our
starport construction division. We thank you for your interest in our
module starport product, and eagerly await your catalog picks.  As
you know, our company eschews discrimination against any sapient
aliens, especially Terrans, and we are happy to work with all manner
of government and military advisors, as our product specifications
have machinings fine enough to satisfy even most hidebound of our
own Zirkuurum quantum meson protractor crew.

However, we regret to inform you that that particular item does not
appear in our catalog; sadly, we do not consider such a device
feasible or marketable, though it has shown promise in the past and
has many supporters among various research agencies.  Should we
deem it necessary in the future, you can be assured that we will
include such a device in our product list.  Until then you may have
to find a special order contractor with which to build your custom
components.

Sincerely,
IIguraaskaan Raab
General Products

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:41:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 01:20 PM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Never heard of the Ares but I remember the MP5 and the Mac10/11 setup.

The Ares FMG is a SMG designed to fold into a compact, smooth shape for use
in situations where obvious gun bulges are not called for.  Mostly used by
bodyguards, it can be put into action in seconds.

>>The P90 was designed to be issued to all those troops who *aren't* direct
>>combat infantry.. tankers, artillery, support types.  It's a compact,
>>effective weapon that doesn't encumber the soldier as much as a long rifle
>>would.
>>
>Okay, but what I want to know is what makes this weapon LESS effective than
>a non-bullpup assault rifle?  Why wouldn't standard infantry carry it?  The
>barrel seems to almost go all of the way back to the butt, so it has
>considerable length.

The weapon is *very* short.  So it isn't very accurate beyond about 50m.
You really need about 100cm of barrel (using current technology) to get any
real accuracy at the ranges you need.

>>The real masterpiece of design was the 50 round magazine that is place
>>along the top of the barrel.  Really cuts down on weapon bulk, and allows
>>the weapon to be carried in an oversized holster.
>
>The H&K G-11 did that, first.  It just didn't put its main action far enough
>back in the stock.  Whoever designed this thing REALLY made use of all good
>ideas and even improved them, finally coming up with some ideas of their
>own, like making the foregrip the same as the handguard.

The G-11 had a conventional magazine just to the rear of the trigger
assembly, loaded from the bottom of the rifle.  What made the G-11
revolutionary was that it used caseless ammo.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:43:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Spofulum Protectors

At 07:33 PM 3/15/99 +0000, you wrote:

>You're forgetting Uncle Hengie, the current owner of FS....

Umm. If uncle Hengie is a contemporary of Arameth Gridlore, you moght have
a problem since at the Imperium's founding, Arameth is over 70.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:35:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Rathon (was re:My Introduction)

At 08:15 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote:
>I'm not too sure that being sent to the sole source of the most powerful
>substance in the known universe could really be called 'exile'...
>Although I must admit there doesn't seem much difference between being sent
>into exile and jumping before being pushed...

The Atreidies getting Dune was part of a masterful trap.  The Padishah
Emperor and the Harkkonens wanted them out of the way.

>How did the Fremen survive on Arrakis?
>On the Sand-which-is there!!

What is the Arakein Planetary Anthem?

_Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue_  by Crystal Gayle.

(The is actually a very good filk song on that subject by Tom Smith, who's
site is linked of the filk page in The Silly era, which is getting ungodly
amounts of press tonight...)
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:29:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who Parody

At 10:11 AM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote:

>ObTrav: Can Traveller be parodied? I mean, there's Doubg's "Silly Era" pages
>and the lightbulb jokes are funny, but are there are there any good ol'
>"saws" to be parodied?

I've long wanted to get more material for the Silly Era, and would welcome
submissions.  Just in case y'all are interested, the three most popular
pages are (according to my mail) The Drinking Game, Skill Levels Explained,
and Bar Encounters through All Four Versions..  which reminds me!  Does
some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules for
T:TSE?
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:42:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 01:23 PM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
- -
>I KNEW that FN had made it... What I was wondering was what or who prompted
>so many radical departures from the standard FN FAL type design?  I mean,
>they went ALL OUT to create something totally cutting edge!

Somebody gave them a Steyer AUG.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:08:06 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

Sorry to pick nits Doug, but the G11 had a magazine that ran above the
barrel's centerline, with later units storing extra mags on either side.
When the caseless round fired, the next round in the mag dropped down into
the breech where it was then rotated in line with the barrel for the next
shot.  You can see this beauty at www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm.
Observe and drool :)

Jesse



>The G-11 had a conventional magazine just to the rear of the trigger
>assembly, loaded from the bottom of the rifle.  What made the G-11
>revolutionary was that it used caseless ammo.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
>- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:32:10 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Font Conversion

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:57:20 -0500, Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca
(Rob Prior) wrote:

>I think I can get revision 2 of 101 Starships out this week, with a bit of
>help from the list.

>What I need is someone to provide me with a TrueType version of Omni. (I
>have the Type 1 font, but my home computer can't run ATM without crashing
>with a bus error.) 

>This would be useful even once I get back to work, because my team leader
>frowns on my using school computers for gaming (although he uses school
>equipment to make colour copies for his daughter - go figure), so doing
>everything at home would be much less hassle.

>Omni is the font used for the original little black books. Something that
>looks close would by just as good.

If you're referring to the font that was used for the cover/title
page (the word TRAVELLER), look for anything with one of the
following names:

Optima
Optim
Opta
Zapf Humanist

If you're referring to the body text font, it's a close match
for:

Arial
Helvetica

but a better one for

Aksidenz Grotesk
Sage
Standard

Alternatively, email me a GIF with a closeup, and I'll see if I
can find a match.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:38:33 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

Hummmmm, Concidering contra-grav modules and super dense materials I may
have to concider this a challenge to the engineering ability of the
Solomani Confederation!

O.K. Boris, get me a list of the top 4 or 500 engineers in the Sphere
and have them transported to... oh, I don't care, some out of the way
hell hole. Set up a research facility and raise the taxes for the
financing! We'll show those decadent Imperials what real Solomanican
do!.... What? Of course, Boris, if they don't wish to "volunteer" for
the project have them barain wiped and sent to a labor battalian!

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> [XBoat stamp 43489uirjds89743 Cr100]
> 
> A: Piiturs.Mikal@TML@Terra.pla@Sol.sys
> D: IIguraaskaan.Raab@General.Products.Branch.com@Terra.pla@Sol.sys
> R: Beanstalks
> 
> Dear Sir:
> 
> It has come to our attention that you have a custom order for our
> starport construction division. We thank you for your interest in our
> module starport product, and eagerly await your catalog picks.  As
> you know, our company eschews discrimination against any sapient
> aliens, especially Terrans, and we are happy to work with all manner
> of government and military advisors, as our product specifications
> have machinings fine enough to satisfy even most hidebound of our
> own Zirkuurum quantum meson protractor crew.
> 
> However, we regret to inform you that that particular item does not
> appear in our catalog; sadly, we do not consider such a device
> feasible or marketable, though it has shown promise in the past and
> has many supporters among various research agencies.  Should we
> deem it necessary in the future, you can be assured that we will
> include such a device in our product list.  Until then you may have
> to find a special order contractor with which to build your custom
> components.
> 
> Sincerely,
> IIguraaskaan Raab
> General Products

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:41:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>>The H&K G-11 did that, first.  It just didn't put its main action far
enough
>>back in the stock.  Whoever designed this thing REALLY made use of all
good
>>ideas and even improved them, finally coming up with some ideas of their
>>own, like making the foregrip the same as the handguard.
>
>The G-11 had a conventional magazine just to the rear of the trigger
>assembly, loaded from the bottom of the rifle.  What made the G-11
>revolutionary was that it used caseless ammo.


No, sir.  Maybe there was an earlier design that did that, but everyone G-11
I've ever seen pictures of, the magazine inserts by sliding it rearward
along the top of the barrel, bullet noses down.  They are then in position
to slide nose down into a cartwheel sort of chamber, which then turns 90
degrees so that the round is now pointing down the barrel.  The next 1/4
turn of the cartwheel accepts the next round in the opposite direction that
it accepted the first round.  This, as far as I know, novel design is one
reason the G-11 has such a high rate of fire and can put 3 rounds out of the
barrel before the muzzle flips.  (I'm not sure, but the cartwheeling action
may actually work against muzzle flip.)

The solid propellant surrounding the rounds is a square cross-section, so
that the rounds are stacked Tetris-style and in a single file along the
stick magazine.  The designers believed that, despite the flat surfaces
against the walls of the magazine, the squarish design of the rounds would
reduce the friction working on a casing from multiple directions, as with a
staggered magazine of cylindrical cases.  The magazine is a 50 rounder.  I
don't know where that is supposed to be behind the trigger assembly, as
nothing is showing.

I've devoured anything I could find on the gun ever since I read about it in
the Q Manual for the JB 007 RPG (in which Q relates that one of the double
O's likes to hang upside down from a helicopter nailing targets, since he
doesn't have to worry about casings in his face).  I'm not sure, but the
manual might have said that the thing could float.

It was one of the four in the Army ACR testing, which was conducted while I
was in, around '88 or '89.

Something I read later seemed to say that it looked like the Army was going
to go with the Colt-based flechette spitter.  Political wisdom but selection
idiocy, in my opinion.  If the G-11 actually works (I say this because I
heard that they have a problem with the ammo when it gets wet) then I can't
understand why they wouldn't use it.  Face it, the Germans know how to make
some good guns.  Americans seem more concerned with sticking to Cowboy
companies...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:43:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>
>Somebody gave them a Steyer AUG.
>
Yeah, that one was certainly cutting-edge in the 80's.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:00:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

>What of the fate of the HK-ACR in the United States? Well, contrary to the
articles and reports that appeared in various magazines and such, the
recently completed ACR Field Experiment was not intended to select a
replacement for the presently fielded M16A2. This "experiment" was just
that, a test of the latest weapon and ammunition technologies that might
increase the soldier's ability to hit more targets on the modern battlefield
while under combat stress. The most promising technologies could then be
incorporated into the specifications for the U.S. military's replacement for
the M16A2, slated to be issued no earlier than 1995. So, while the HK-ACR
rifle may not be issued in the exact form that it was tested at Fort
Benning, it is quite possible that some of the features of the rifle, or
possibly its caseless ammunition, could be included in the individual weapon
that our troops will carry into the 21st century.

If the OICW is to be that replacement, it sounds like somebody didn't learn
much from the G-11, because the OICW uses a bullpup design and looks like it
is going to be pretty frickin' long (it looks like a gussied up Colt--just
can't let go of the Colt, can we good ol' boys?).

- --Clif

P.S.:  Surprised that with 3 magazines it weighs as much as an empty M1
Garand...  Not sure if that is something to boast about.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:02:18 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: HK-ACR

Oh, BTW, in that first picture, why does the barrel look like it shoots
needles instead of bullets?

- --Clif
at www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm.
>Observe and drool :)
>
>Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:15:10 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

> The 3D space of FGU's Space Atlases for Space Opera inspired
> me to attempt to create a 3d universe for Trav.

Which reminds me, I created a Space Opera style map in html.
By using image map, each of the stars became a hot link.
A nifty thing if you like that style of map.

Check out http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6599/shared.html
to see what I'm babbling about or to snag the source document.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:45:04 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

>How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
>plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?

You don't.

Plasmas are contained, accelerated,  and directed using magnetic or other
non-materiel,  fields. The "barrel" merely acts as a support for the
field-generation and control equipment.

Of course, the barrel still needs to be built tough to withstand battllefield
conditions.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:26:44 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Ditzie does Gauss Guns

>OK. Unless we're reading something wrong, a 120 mm Gauss Gun round will
>mass 30 kilos.
>
>Accelerating it to 4000 meters per second (a nice round number for a TL9
>peaceful magnetic device) demands 0.216 MJ according to FFS2 p45  (30
>kg*4000 ms^-2/2 000 000, *3.6 tech efficiency).

I ended up with  864MJ by carrying out the above calculation

Of course, I also remembered to square the velocity, as should be stated in
the errata
:-)

>Now, if k=1/2*m*v^2, then the rounds kinetic energy is about 15 * 16
>million joules, or call it a rough 240 million joules.

A "Murphy's Rules" candidate perhaps ?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:12:24 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: HK-ACR

>Oh, BTW, in that first picture, why does the barrel look like it shoots
>needles instead of bullets?

Probably because it's only 4.7mm.

>
>--Clif
>at www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm.
>>Observe and drool :)
>>
>>Jesse

Seriously COOL!  Those are the best pics of a H&K G11 I've ever seen!

I've got stats for one of these in a OLD RPG supplement from about 1982
that is in Hero Games and a couple other formats.  The really amazing thing
about the older prototypes is that not only did they have a 50 round clip,
but they could hold something like 24 clips in the stock!!!  Of course I
would imagine that the gun got pretty heavy at that point.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:22:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: HK-ACR

It REALLY looks like a needle hole!  Take a look!

- --Clif

4.7mm is roughly 4-5 dime widths.  That's a lot bigger than a needle hole.


>>Oh, BTW, in that first picture, why does the barrel look like it shoots
>>needles instead of bullets?
>
>Probably because it's only 4.7mm.
>
>>
>>--Clif
>>at www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm.
>>>Observe and drool :)
>>>
>>>Jesse
>
>Seriously COOL!  Those are the best pics of a H&K G11 I've ever seen!
>
>I've got stats for one of these in a OLD RPG supplement from about 1982
>that is in Hero Games and a couple other formats.  The really amazing thing
>about the older prototypes is that not only did they have a 50 round clip,
>but they could hold something like 24 clips in the stock!!!  Of course I
>would imagine that the gun got pretty heavy at that point.
>
> Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:59:29 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Couple new pics up

Hi all,
I posted two new pics to my site, one each of the finished Tender (with
X-Boats) and the Donosev (with finished and detached cutter).

Cheers & Beers (that's where I'M heading!!),
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 00:02:09 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

On 03/15/99 at 07:32 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Nope. What we don't want is a QSDS which is basically a list of FFS
>tables. Make it abstract and approximate the values (if necessary).
>Let FFS3 be the design system where you can tweak and shave. I can
>design a HG ship in less than 30 min. QSDS took twice that *until* I
>got Rob Prior's Mac Software Version which takes 5 minutes...

That's the opposite of my experience.  I could knock out a simple
ship with QSDS in 15 minutes, and *use* it in a roleplaying game.
HG took longer and was so abstracted as to be next to *useless* for
roleplaying.  If I want a wargame I'll go play something like
"Slag!," Traveller is for roleplaying.

>Be careful with those comments on HG, oh heretic!

Bah!  IMO, the first third of HG is a fine addition to the game,
Naval character generation, the last two thirds had very little
utility for me.  The sort of ships I want aren't size N with a pair
of P this and S that powered by an M and driven by a T and an O!
Geeze!  That's not abstraction, that's insanity!

But if *that* is what floats your boat, then more power to you.

>"There is only one Traveller and its product is High Guard (2)."

There are *many* roads to Traveller.  I don't object to you
travelling your road, don't object to me following mine.  ;->

Eris,
     the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #287
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 288



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Beanstalks
Re: Couple new pics up
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: Ditzie Does CPR guns
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future
Re: HK-ACR
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: GT  (Was Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?)
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Re: SecurityArms
HMS Ark Royal [Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?]
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
HMS Ark Royal
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak
Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 00:04:33 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

On 03/15/99 at 04:22 PM,  Sethkimmel@aol.com said:

>In a message dated 3/15/99 11:29:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

><< How about it cannibalises the GT market, which might not be
>attractive to SJG? >>

>yes; that's SJG's view, which I don't agree with...

I don't think I agree with that view either, but SJ is the one that has his money invested 
in the outcome so, I guess, he gets to make the final call.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:48:20 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

- ----------
> From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Beanstalks
> Date: Monday, 15 March, 1999 9:38 PM
> 
> Hummmmm, Concidering contra-grav modules and super dense materials I may
> have to concider this a challenge to the engineering ability of the
> Solomani Confederation!

You'd better get cracking, pinkie.  The Vargr finished a beanstalk on Lair
in c. 1120, so you're way behind.  

It's in G:T Alien Races 1.  This is probably another reason for people to
pick on G:T, but when I challenged it in playtest, some cannon examples of
beanstalks from CT were presented as justification.  It appears to be
feasible, but not common.
 
> O.K. Boris, get me a list of the top 4 or 500 engineers in the Sphere
> and have them transported to... oh, I don't care, some out of the way
> hell hole. Set up a research facility and raise the taxes for the
> financing! We'll show those decadent Imperials what real Solomanican
> do!.... What? Of course, Boris, if they don't wish to "volunteer" for
> the project have them barain wiped and sent to a labor battalian!
> 

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:37:38 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Couple new pics up

>Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:59:29 -0800
>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Couple new pics up
>
>Hi all,
>I posted two new pics to my site, one each of the finished Tender
(with
>X-Boats) and the Donosev (with finished and detached cutter).


Jesse,

Can you post your site address again? Thanks.

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:47:41 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted in
>> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the deckplans
>> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures cranked
>> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
>> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
>> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with the
>> outline of the ship's hull when landed?

GypsyComet sez,

> The rear struts ARE pretty close to centerline as I recall, but since the
>Sulieman is THREE stories tall at the rear (not the FIVE story monster
>depicted in G:T), there is plenty of room in the ventral spaces. The front
>jack also has a fair amount of room to originate from.

Coincidentally, I'm just finishing a detailed drawing of a Scout/Courier's
undercarriage for _First In_; the ship is sitting on the tarmac of a
starport, on it's rather complicated-looking landing gear. In my version,
the foreward gear do extend from the centerline, and are taller than the
aft gear, thus putting the decks level with the ground.

But I must admit that I draw what I think looks good, and pay only slight
attention to the deckplans -- even my own! (See my previous post re: my
Vargr Corsair illo and deckplans in BTC.)

Best,

Glenn

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:23:17 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR guns

>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense
>
>[snip]
>>OK. The FS 150 mm HVAP Smoothbore Gun.
>
>>The shells have a short range of 690 meters, for a DV of 202. The
>>penetration drops off with range, to 187 at Medium, 159 at Long and 103 at
>>Extreme range (I guess Medium is 1.4km, Long 2.8km and Extreme 5.6 km).
>[snip]
>
>SEFOP rounds should have a constant penetration and DV across their range.

Yeah, but these are, in Ditzie's words 'Kinetic-winetic energy-wenergy
pwojectiles'.

The 150 mm SEFOP round has been subcontracted to Auric Shipyards, and would
have a basic penetration of 256.

>It's a good armor-defeating round, as long as it isn't shot at by active
>defenses.

At TL9 point defenses are becoming a lot more common, including reactive
and electrostatic armour and radar/ladar linked small weapons.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 23:31:07 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> Does some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter 
> rules for T:TSE?

GURPS already has rules for this in GURPS Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
(based on the Spider Robinson books of the same name).  Callahans would
make a good crossover for G:Trav.  Gurps Callahans is a good supplement
on a very surreal subject & it has nice Donna Barr art.  I think it is
OP, though.

Obviously Harmonian = Ancient

To properly crossover Callahans we will have to move it from Long
Island, unless your campaign is set on Terra.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:54:38 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships: some questions for the future

Rob Prior wrote:

> Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated and
> expanded, or a series of documents?

Single document.

> -----
> Would people like to see material other than a straight list of designs?
> For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.

Yes ...
 
> Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one format, if
> someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a separate
> book for each rule system?

Separate book for each rule set, but the same craft. Maybe a discription book,
histroy, deckplans, images, and a separate book for stats, one for each system.

101 Starships,
101 Starships CT Stats
101 Starships MT Stats

etc etc ect ..

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:19:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: HK-ACR

At 09:12 PM 3/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Oh, BTW, in that first picture, why does the barrel look like it shoots
>>needles instead of bullets?
>
>Probably because it's only 4.7mm.

and the projectile's length-to-width ratio is about 5:1.

Also, the G-11 has a fairly thick barrel, about 3cm across at the muzzle,
which makes the actual opening look smaller.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:22:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 06:08 PM 3/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Sorry to pick nits Doug, but the G11 had a magazine that ran above the
>barrel's centerline, with later units storing extra mags on either side.

I stand corrected.

Then what was it I saw fired by GSG9 during a demo at Ft. Benning?  It
looked exactly like a G-11, but was obviously loaded in a conventional (for
a bullpup) manner.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:41:47 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: GT  (Was Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?)

At 19:29 15/03/1999 -0500, "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net> wrote:

>Is there something wrong with liking GURPS?

<snip>

Sorry if I gave that impression. I was reponding to the theme of
why (IMO) Steve Jackson wouldn't want to produce T5.

Gurps and Traveller promoting each other's sales via G:T is a good thing.

I just think that if SJG published T5 and FFS3, they would be missing
the point of Gurps and thus it is not likely.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:58:40 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 00:02 16/03/1999 -0600, "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
>On 03/15/99 at 07:32 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:
>
>>Be careful with those comments on HG, oh heretic!
>
>Bah!  IMO, the first third of HG is a fine addition to the game,
>Naval character generation, the last two thirds had very little
>utility for me.  The sort of ships I want aren't size N with a pair
>of P this and S that powered by an M and driven by a T and an O!
>Geeze!  That's not abstraction, that's insanity!

As long as the concept of a USP stays dead.
They mean nothing to me, so I just read the test descriptions instead.
The worst offender is everyone's favourite pacman: Batteries Z
Since Z just means "more than Y", we're back to "some, many, lots" counting.

Personally I'd just take full FFS3 and a computer program (or several).

If you do want a simplified system, I would suggest that each system
(drives weapons, etc) includes in its cost and volume the fuel, power plant
and crew space plus the crew count. This would make calculating ships easier
as weapons = a std, drives + armour + fuel = b% of total, thus ship is
100 a / (100 - b) std.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:19:25 -0400
From: Les_Howie@keane.com
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

Both a friend and I have run traveller ga,es in the past using local space in
3D.  This was a while ago, so we used the "Star Force Alpha Centauri" map (lord,
did I really do this 20 years ago?) and ditched the traveller history in favour
of our own creations.

I believe Joe Heck did some work in 3D, taking some near earth data and
"transposing" it into a "Standard Traveller" furture.

In the limitted extend of space we used (20 ly around sol), it made little
difference to the players.  It get more challenging if you go further out.
mostly because of the raw number of objects.  A printed map just can't carry the
data.  Their are a few good 3D starmap programs, however -- you will find most
of the on Wenchel Chung's site (url was posted earlier).

A jump one ship does not cut it around sol, but jump 3 can get just about
anyplace.  Since the worlds accessable with distance increases with d^3 instead
of d^2, the economic situation for trade oriented players might change.

Anyway, if you can get past the mapping issue, I recommend the 3 D.  I think it
would really make a difference to the sense of realism realism in a military
(interstellar war) oriented game, or where the players were into trade networks.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:39:36 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

> Yeah, first time I saw it I was thinking, "It's a briefcase that 
> happens to shoot."

	Grin. The first time I used a P90, the gun was fitted with a 
	silencer and I wore hearing protection (there were other 
	shooters who didn't use silencers). After I pressed the trigger 
	I began to wonde whether the gun fired or not; the recoil was 
	quite mild and the silencer hid the muzzle flash.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> The G-11 had a conventional magazine just to the rear of the trigger
> assembly, loaded from the bottom of the rifle.

	I am not sure about all G11 versions since I have tested only 
	the G11K2 model. However, the K2 has overbarrel magazine.

	A cutaway image is avaialble at:

	http://donatello.ee.tut.fi/acr.html 
	http://donatello.ee.tut.fi/ACR/G11-cutaway.jpg

      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:07:59 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: HMS Ark Royal [Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?]

Sethkimmel wrote:
>> It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal.


DomMooney replied:
>Ahem. There have been a number of Ark Royals. I can think of three this
>century off the top of my head.

>Carrier Sunk in WWII.
>Carrier Scrapped late 70s
>Carrier in service now


I believe the one referred to as 'scrapped late 70s' was the fourth HMS Ark
Royal.  I learnt this back in the 70s when I was fortunate enough to actually
visit it - my father served on her for two years just before she was scrapped
(he *thinks* that might have been 1978).  He also had the following information:

1587 bought from Sir Walter Raleigh, fought in the Armada (against the Spanish)
1914 Merchant ship converted to sea-plane carrier for RN
1937 specifically built to carry 32 aircraft, sunk 14 Nov 1941 off Gibraltar
1943 keel laid down at Cammell Laird Yard (Birkenhead), launched 1950, featured
on a UK TV series (an early docu-soap), scrapped 1978???
1985 current Ark Royal entered service


for those who require more info on the current ship and a photo, try:

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/today/index.htm

and look under surface flotilla and then aircraft carriers.


HTH

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:19:34 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 09:05 PM 3/15/99 +0000, you wrote:
>On 15 Mar, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>>  Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>> >what's wrong with this as long as Marc does the design work and Steve
>> >just prints it verbatim?
>
>> How about it cannibalises the GT market, which might not be attractive to
>> SJG?
>
>IMO
>
>G:T encourages people to buy Gurps Basic, Compendium, Space, Ultra Tech,
>Vehicles...
>
>Once you have all the Gurps stuff, you might want to use Gurps for
>Fantasy, Cyberpunk and lots of other stuff (ie more book sales).
>
>Selling T5 would separate the G:T stuff from the rest of Gurps
>and reduce the number of Gurps converts it makes.
>
>Phil Kitching
>

We are GURPS!  Resitance is futile!  You will be assemilated!

Charles L. of GURPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:20:19 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: HMS Ark Royal

I should, of course, finished reading the last Digest as Andrew has answered the
'Ark Royal' discussion far more thoroughly than I managed to *and* had an ObTrav
bit.  Well done Andrew.

My apologies to everyone else for not waiting a moment longer.  (I was just
pleased to find a question that for once I knew the answer to!)

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:53:46 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 Les_Howie@keane.com wrote:

> 
> 
> Both a friend and I have run traveller ga,es in the past using local space in
> 3D.  This was a while ago, so we used the "Star Force Alpha Centauri" map (lord,
> did I really do this 20 years ago?) and ditched the traveller history in favour
> of our own creations.
> 

	Hi, Les!
	Yep, 20 years and you kept despicably good care of your books.  =)

> In the limitted extend of space we used (20 ly around sol), it made little
> difference to the players.  It get more challenging if you go further out.
> mostly because of the raw number of objects.  A printed map just can't carry the
> data. 

	An interesting way of dealing this issue was handled by National
Geographic in a starmap they published some time ago.  They had a series
of "this cylinfaer of space fits into this cyclinder of space" diagrams
showing the relative position/ size of Terra/Sol against the known
Universe.
	It had occured to me some time ago that using the bottom three
scales for this type of representation would be perfect...  A map showing
local groups of stars and the relative positions of the clusters....  The
a map for each group in greater detail, and if desired a map of each
system.

> Anyway, if you can get past the mapping issue, I recommend the 3 D.  I think it
> would really make a difference to the sense of realism realism in a military
> (interstellar war) oriented game, or where the players were into trade networks.
> 
	I agree entirely, and that was what I wanted to do with my TNEC
maps, but decided I wan't about to write a program to render it the way I
wanted to see it on paper...  =)

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:25:55 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak

*** warning ... if the idea of a semi-automatic 120 mm gauss gun firing
twenty 30 kilo steel darts at 4000 meters per second in thirty-six seconds
appals you, please stop reading now ***


Uncieeee ....

We've finished it. Weeeee reckon-weckon it's a pretty-weety neato caaaaan
opener, an an an the weaaaapon itself is pretty-weety small (not really
weaallly Barbie-sized PAAAAAAAAAAWWWW size, but small for tankie-wankies).
But the battery-wattery an an an the accumulator-wumulator bankie is
preeeety big.

But but but accuuuumulators an batterwies are cheap, an an an the Total
Cost of Oooooowwwwnership should be pretty deeeecent.

An an an some of our customer-wustomers are worried about that.

The gun itself is one-twenny miiiiilimeters an an an it masses two point
eiiight eiiight tons an an an costs one forty four kilo-wilo cwedits. The
raaaapid blammie-blammie blam blam action maaaases one point fiiiiive tons,
an an an costs about fiiiiiifteeen kilocwedits.

The auuuutoloader maaaases nine hunnerd kiiiilos, an an an costs nine
kilocwedits.

The theeeeoretical wate of fire is fifty roundie-woundie-woundies per
minute (although they're actually more like riiiilllly rillly biiiiig
neeeeeeedles).

Power-wower demand (an an an I wanna make sure I have this right) 

muzzle energy = (warhead mass in kg/2000000) X (muzzle velocity in
m/sec)^2

The waaaarhead masses 30 kiiilos, an an an the muzzle velocity is 4000 m/s,
so the energy-wenergy demand is 30/2000000* (4000)^2 =
30/2000000*16000000=30*8=240 megajoules.

Now, techie-wechie 9 maaassss driver-wivers have efficiency of of of 3.6,
so the actual-wactual amount of energy-wenergy neeeded is eight hunnerd an
sixty four megajoules.

Thats thats thats eiiighty-six point four cuuuubic meters of accuuumulators
at techie-wechie niiine, which should massie-wassie 172.8 tons, an an an
cost eight hunnerd an sixty-four kilocwedits.

Incideeeentally, two hunnerd an forty megajoules of output-woutput is
enough for a penetration factor of three hunnerd an twelve, which should be
enoughie-wuffie to go thruuuuuuu most light crwuiser-bwusers.

The shellsie-wellsies should go for one hunnerd an five kilometer-wometers
an indiwect fiiiiire, an an an should go for one thousand meeeeters or so
before they start to run out of weeeeeeet-bix ... but they hurtie-wurtie
sooooo much that that that it shouldnt matter.

Miiiichael tells me I hafta-wafta do this riiiight, so so so damage at
meeeeedium range is two hunnerd an eighty, an at long it's call it two
hunnerd an sixty-five, an an an at extweme wange it's call it a hunnerd an
sixty.

The imaging raaaaadar an an an the balliiiiistic computer-wuter an an an
the full stabaaaaaalization cost another one hunnerd an twenny fiiive
kilocwedits an an an mass another two hunnerd an eight kiiiilos.

A set of indiwect fire sites costs another one hunnerd kilocwedits an an an
masses two hunnerd kiiiilos.

Eaaach shottie-wottie will take 864 megajoules, an an an 86.4 cuuubic
meter-weters of battery-watteries will be able to pwovide this for
thiiirty-six seconds, which shouldie-wouldie allow at least twenny shots in
that time. The battery-wattery pack will will will will mass 172.8 tons an
an an cost seven hunnerd kilocwedits.

The total weapon maaaases three hunnerd and fifty one point threeeeeeee
tons, an an an it costie-wosties one million nine hunnerd an fifty seven
kilocwedits.

Plus ammunition, which costie-wosties forty-fiiive cwedits a neeeedle.

Now, it is pweeeety heavy, but weeeeee reckon that contwa-gwavity should be
able to liftie-wiftie it.

Your loving cousin,

Ditzie

****************************************************************************
****

Wow. So much for Gauss being a low-cost alternative to CPR guns.

Mind you, it's a monster.

That rapid-fire capability ... ewwwww. You'd hate to be caught in enfilade
by one of these beasts poking it's turret over the hill.

It would be a bit of a curiousity, becuase you can build a much better can
opener at TL10 with big fusion guns. I dare say some of them would see
service as artillery in TL10 and up militaries - that 100 km indirect fire
range is pretty nice, especially if it's launching individually
redirectable missiles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:27:27 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)

Michael Peters wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Where is the Beanstalk? I'dthink that there would be a lot of medium and
high tech worlds, in particular the high-pop ones that would use some
type of beanstalk rather than have multi-mega-ton star ships flying over
their heads.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Beanstalks should be pretty uncommon, due to the massive expense of
building one. A Beanstalk is a great idea if you don't have cheap contragrav,
and once you've built it it will be very cheap to run, but the capital cost of
putting it up means you won't see them if there is any alternative.

You will see a beanstalk in a society where materials technology has
far surpassed gravitics technology - where the society discovers how to
make impossibly strong fibers before they learn (or buy, or steal) the secret
of cheap contra-grav. Earth, for example (noted in Canon as being 
chronically behind in gravitics tech).

Beanstalks may not be 100% safe, either. 
A White Dwarf magazine had a scenario called "Tower Trouble" in it, based
around the beanstalk on Terra. One possible (though unlikely) outcome
of the scenario had the beanstalk being cut, with the devastation of a major
urban area following as miles of superdense cable fell on it from near-orbit.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:57:18 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Ian or Katts wrote:

> 
> *** warning ... if the idea of a semi-automatic 120 mm gauss gun firing
> twenty 30 kilo steel darts at 4000 meters per second in thirty-six seconds
> appals you, please stop reading now ***
> 
> 

	I *WANT* one...

> ****************************************************************************
> ****
> 
> Wow. So much for Gauss being a low-cost alternative to CPR guns.
> 
> Mind you, it's a monster.
> 
> That rapid-fire capability ... ewwwww. You'd hate to be caught in enfilade
> by one of these beasts poking it's turret over the hill.

	Or from anywhere in the FEB, more realistically...

> It would be a bit of a curiousity, becuase you can build a much better can
> opener at TL10 with big fusion guns. I dare say some of them would see
> service as artillery in TL10 and up militaries - that 100 km indirect fire
> range is pretty nice, especially if it's launching individually
> redirectable missiles.
> 

	Actually, that is the only complaint I have about the weapon...
Why *aren't* the rounds laser-seeking fin-directed (a la copperhead)?  One
infanteer could slaughter a tank battaltion with a painting laser (flight
time for the round from 100km is ~25 secs, which is nothing).  Each round
is hitting with the equiv of between a quarter-ton and an eighth of a ton
of TNT, so shrapnel damage will shred any APC's travelling with the tanks,
and God (Allah -> Zeus,inclusive, you pick) help any infantry caught out
in the open when that tank goes up.....  Waaaaaaaay up.... =)
	I am rather surprised that Ditzie didn't see this as a major use
of the weapon...  its wasted in the direct-fire role;  unless you are
trashing parked light-cruisers at a starport...  =)

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #288
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 289



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Font Conversion
RE: HK-ACR
Re: Couple new pics up
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: SecurityArms
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
SecurityArms
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Font Conversion
Re: Beanstalks
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
SayBOOM goes Green

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:57:24 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Font Conversion

jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) writes:
>If you're referring to the font that was used for the cover/title
>page (the word TRAVELLER), look for anything with one of the
>following names:
>
>Optima
>Optim
>Opta
>Zapf Humanist

I was -- this is for the titles only.

I have a clone of Optima, but it didn't look quite right. Possibly a bad
clone.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:33 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: HK-ACR

On Monday, 15 March 1999 21:02, Clif [SMTP:brclif@digital.net] wrote:
> Oh, BTW, in that first picture, why does the barrel look like it shoots
> needles instead of bullets?
> 

A 4.73x33 round looks awfully small from the front..or it can look awfully
big...depending.

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:25:58 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Couple new pics up

Not a problem.  My site address is:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

Best,
Jesse



>Jesse,
>
>Can you post your site address again? Thanks.
>
>Andrew
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:29:12 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

If it had a conventional magazine behind the pistol grip, it mighta' been
the Steyr ACR prototype.  You were at Benning for a demo by GSG9?  With ACR
prototypes?  I'm jealous!  Bring pictures to BayCon if you've got 'em :)

Jesse




>At 06:08 PM 3/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Sorry to pick nits Doug, but the G11 had a magazine that ran above the
>>barrel's centerline, with later units storing extra mags on either side.
>
>I stand corrected.
>
>Then what was it I saw fired by GSG9 during a demo at Ft. Benning?  It
>looked exactly like a G-11, but was obviously loaded in a conventional (for
>a bullpup) manner.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:30:57 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

Oh, now I'm EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY jealous!!!!!   :)
Jesse




>> Yeah, first time I saw it I was thinking, "It's a briefcase that 
>> happens to shoot."
>
> Grin. The first time I used a P90, the gun was fitted with a 
> silencer and I wore hearing protection (there were other 
> shooters who didn't use silencers). After I pressed the trigger 
> I began to wonde whether the gun fired or not; the recoil was 
> quite mild and the silencer hid the muzzle flash.
>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> The G-11 had a conventional magazine just to the rear of the trigger
>> assembly, loaded from the bottom of the rifle.
>
> I am not sure about all G11 versions since I have tested only 
> the G11K2 model. However, the K2 has overbarrel magazine.
>
> A cutaway image is avaialble at:
>
> http://donatello.ee.tut.fi/acr.html 
> http://donatello.ee.tut.fi/ACR/G11-cutaway.jpg
>
>      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
>      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:51:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Yeah, I think I may have screwed the pooch by trying to do it to the
deckplans so that the plans actually equalled the geometry :)  Oh well.
I'll probably do another, thinner version later as I don't really like that
"Fat Sulieman" :)

Jesse



- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners


>>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted
in
>>> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the
deckplans
>>> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures
cranked
>>> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
>>> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
>>> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with
the
>>> outline of the ship's hull when landed?
>
>GypsyComet sez,
>
>> The rear struts ARE pretty close to centerline as I recall, but since the
>>Sulieman is THREE stories tall at the rear (not the FIVE story monster
>>depicted in G:T), there is plenty of room in the ventral spaces. The front
>>jack also has a fair amount of room to originate from.
>
>Coincidentally, I'm just finishing a detailed drawing of a Scout/Courier's
>undercarriage for _First In_; the ship is sitting on the tarmac of a
>starport, on it's rather complicated-looking landing gear. In my version,
>the foreward gear do extend from the centerline, and are taller than the
>aft gear, thus putting the decks level with the ground.
>
>But I must admit that I draw what I think looks good, and pay only slight
>attention to the deckplans -- even my own! (See my previous post re: my
>Vargr Corsair illo and deckplans in BTC.)
>
>Best,
>
>Glenn
>
>               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
>   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
>             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
>           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:59:36 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

|> Does some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter
|> rules for T:TSE?


Ref: "So, you walk into this bar."

Players: "What's the name of the establishment?"

Ref: "The Bar.  Anyway, you walk up to the bar and the bartenders says,
'What can I get you?'  So what do you say?"

Players: "I ask the guy his name and I look around to see what else is going
on."

Ref: "The bartender's name is Guy.  The rest of the patrons are doing bar
stuff, like drinking and playing cards.  Now what?"

Players: "I order a drink and leave a big tip, then ask what's going on
around town these days, kinda hinting when I ask."

Ref: "Guy gives you a glass of ale from the single tap and replies, 'Oh, you
know, the usual stuff.' and pockets your tip."


There, that ought to do it for just about every Generic game.  :-D

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:42:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

The other possibilty should be revised, single-deck, deckplans, or revised
deckplans that turn it into <donning Battledress and loading the FGMP :)  >
a tail-sitter.

Jesse




>>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>> Hi guys, REAL quick question about the Sulieman class scout as depicted
in
>>> the main G:T book.  I'm modeling it for "First In" as shown on the
deckplans
>>> (and I HAVE to get it finished today and get a few dozen pictures
cranked
>>> out).  My question is this:  Given the fact that as shown on those plans
>>> that the thickness of the ship is correct, does have a problem with the
>>> landing gear set up so that the ground level is closer to parallel with
the
>>> outline of the ship's hull when landed?
>
>GypsyComet sez,
>
>> The rear struts ARE pretty close to centerline as I recall, but since the
>>Sulieman is THREE stories tall at the rear (not the FIVE story monster
>>depicted in G:T), there is plenty of room in the ventral spaces. The front
>>jack also has a fair amount of room to originate from.
>
>Coincidentally, I'm just finishing a detailed drawing of a Scout/Courier's
>undercarriage for _First In_; the ship is sitting on the tarmac of a
>starport, on it's rather complicated-looking landing gear. In my version,
>the foreward gear do extend from the centerline, and are taller than the
>aft gear, thus putting the decks level with the ground.
>
>But I must admit that I draw what I think looks good, and pay only slight
>attention to the deckplans -- even my own! (See my previous post re: my
>Vargr Corsair illo and deckplans in BTC.)
>
>Best,
>
>Glenn
>
>               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
>   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
>             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
>           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:47:06 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

        Hi, folks...  for anyone running a 21rst/22nd century Earth/
Solomani game, here is a table that I am using to determine NPC Ethnic
Origins.  My game is set 2099, non-canon, so the table is stited a bit...
Terra has been a star-faring planet for 85 years.

        1d Gender 
                1-4 ... Male, 
                5-6 ... Female
        1d Family Generation in Space
                1-3 ... 3rd
                4-5 ... 2nd
                 6   ... 1rst
        2d Ethnic Origins
                2       ...  Mixed Nationality Parents (Roll twice more,
ignore and re-roll this result)
                3       ...  Japanese/ Korean
                4       ...  Pacific Islander
                5       ...  Chinese/ South East Asian
                6       ...  Central/ Eastern European
                7       ...  Anglo North American
                8       ...  Western European
                9       ...  African
                10      ..  Black North American
                11      ..  Hispanic American
                12      ..  Central/ South American

        *Pre-Emptive Anti-Flame Strike:  Please *do* *not* *bother* pointing
racist fingers at me about the distribution on this table....  2d gives a
bell-curve, no matter how flat reality is.  
        Further, tragcally enough, if you evaluate the currently existing
space programmes and their ethnic coverage, I am not far off, as far as I
can see.
        The African group are given a higher than "right now" probability of
space-farers since I like the idea that Kilamanjaro will be Terra's first
mass-driver (See R.Talsorian's "Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0" and "Near Orbit/ Deep
Space" books)...  logically the workers would be local and then they move
into space to follow construction jobs....

        Other Notes:  The gender table is tilted towards males.  I do this,
because most characters in my games are male...  even those played by
ladies.  So, to have the NPC population not be completely at variance to the
PC population, there is 1/6 odds better of and NPC being male.
        The "Family Generation in Space" is more for interest...  since
space-faring is reasonably new, it is entirely possible that the NPC is the
*first* generation of thier family to leave Earth...  Generations of 2+ mean
that they are almost assuredly the children of a colony world.

        Comment, questions and critiques are, as always, welcome....


        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:31:46 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: SecurityArms

Clif wrote:

>Okay, but what I want to know is what makes this weapon LESS effective than
>a non-bullpup assault rifle?  Why wouldn't standard infantry carry it?  The
>barrel seems to almost go all of the way back to the butt, so it has
>considerable length.

4.7mm rounds. Since all the world's infantry already use one of three
calibres (7.62, 5.56 and the newish Russian one - 5.45, I think), it's a
nightmare to integrate into your supply chain.

>>The real masterpiece of design was the 50 round magazine that is place
>>along the top of the barrel.  Really cuts down on weapon bulk, and allows
>>the weapon to be carried in an oversized holster.

I'm wondering how reliable that complicated feed mechanism is going to
be under real conditions.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:02:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/15/99 10:10:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< I don't think I agree with that view either, but SJ is the one that has his
money invested in the outcome so, I guess, he gets to make the final call.
  >>

Of course, and that fact that he's outlasted Metagaming, GDW, Avalon Hill,
etc., shows he knows what he's doing...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:04:17 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Font Conversion

Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:32:10 GMT jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:


>If you're referring to the font that was used for the cover/title
>page (the word TRAVELLER), look for anything with one of the
>following names:
>
>Optima
>Optim
>Opta
>Zapf Humanist


This reminds me of something I've always been wondering about: Does anyone know the name of the font which was used for the MegaTraveller 'logo' on the GDW/DGP MT covers?

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:20:57 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

[XBoat stamp 437737ithyu77377 Cr500, duplication 3]

A: Piiturs.Mikal@TML@Terra.pla@Sol.sys
D: Hytherlyn.Freth@GSbAG.Starport.Systems@Arcturus.sys
R: Beanstalks

Dear Sir:

we recently intercepted a letter from our competitor, Standard Products,
discussing their lack of willingness to construct a vertical connected
transport tube (colloquially "Beanstalk") to allow fast transportation of
products and people from surface to orbit.

A system like Terra should not be without such a structure, and my company
is prepared to build you one...well actually, our economic analysts believe
that three beanstalks should be constructed over the next four decades to
enable a sustained period of economic renaissance to sweep the Terran
system.

There are many considerations that must be taken into account, but cost is
not one of them.  For the favor of an exclusive construction contract for
three beanstalks over 40 years we will take in compensation all revenues
generated by the devices, up to the limits of the attached fee schedules,
and provide a tax revenue stream amounting to 1.2% of the net revenue
collected after amortized costs of construction and annual costs of
operation.  You will be expected to provide the touchdown location
(generally a tall mountain peak and surrounding area is best) and an
asteroid massing approximately 20 million tonnes.

Our strategy as outlined in the attached brochure is simple.  We bring the
asteroid into a circular, stable, orbit around the planet and begin
manufacturing cable from the raw materials in the asteroid.  Our advanced
manufacturing methods leave very little waste material when constucting the
multiple-strand carbon fiber "cage" that will, in the end, be the tether
for your new Class A starport facility.

As the cable winds its way toward the ground, a tether station, built from
the material in the aforementioned mountain peak, reaches up and down to
anchor the tether in place, as well as to provide an embarking and
debarking station at the foot of the tether.

Eventually (estimated time for Earth; nine years) the cable will reach
nearly to the ground.  By this time, the last of the tiny adjustments
needed to match the perfectly circular orbit to its ground station will be
complete, and most of the mass of the asteroid will have been converted to
either cable or station parts.  A significant mass must remain, of course,
to act as the high anchor for the tether.

Or current plan is for a four rail tether.  That is, on the outside of the
cable will run four rails, each of which can handle one of the twelve story
"elevator cars" that require two hours to transit from ground to orbit.
The rails are both the adherent and propellent for the rail cars which will
be lifted electromagnetically into orbit, along with as much as 1000
displacement tons of material and over 100 passengers each.  This will
amount to capacity for 24,000 displacement tons and 2,400 passengers
travelling up *and* down each day.  Cost will be in the range of 2 to 12
credits per ton and 20 to 60 credits per passenger, depending on final
traffic.

Once the Terra Tether is well underway, and depending on market factors and
other considerations, we will begin construction on the Mars tether to
bring the significant raw materials and manufacturing capabilities of that
gem of the system into space.  If conditions warrant, a Venus Tether will
follow within the decades thereafter.

Thank you for your consideration.

Hytherlyn Freth, GSbAG
Starport Construction Division,
Beanstalk Office.

P.S. Remember that if the Tether is ever broken by natural forces or
sabotage at the high anchor, the massive cable will wrap itself three times
around the earth before the end hits.  That would be Bad.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:15:46 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

SD Mooney wrote:

>I know the CIWS/Goalkeeper was installed.
>
>The AEW helo took the axed Nimrod AEW (Searchwater?) Radar and mounted it
>on a Sea King. One of my friends (ex Type 42) told me that they managed to
>get these up in weather which precluded launches from one of the US
>carriers in a NATO exercise.

Close. The Sea King AEW.2 takes the radar from the Nimrod MR.2
(Searchwater). The radar from the Nimrod AEW.3 never worked.

And yes, it is possible to perform flight ops from a STOVL carrier when
a CTOL carrier can't.

>> It's a pity that the RN got rid of the first Ark Royal.
>
>Ahem. There have been a number of Ark Royals. I can think of three this
>century off the top of my head.
>
>Carrier Sunk in WWII.
>Carrier Scrapped late 70s
>Carrier in service now

ARK ROYAL

Invincible Class aircraft carrier, 20,000 tons. Launched 1981.

Badge: A field blue, with an Ark, silver, crowned gold upon three
wavelets gold.

Motto: Desire n'a pas repos.

Battle Honours:
Armada          1588
Cadiz           1596
Dardanelles     1915
Norway          1940
Spartivento     1940
Mediterranean   1940-1
/Bismark/       1941
Malta Convoys   1941

Previous ships of the name:

1. Galleon, 55 guns. Build 1587. bilged on her own anchor and sank 1636

2. Steam collier, purchased 1914 Converted to Seaplane carrier, 7,080
tons.  Renamed PEGASUS 1934. Sold 1946.

3. Aircraft Carrier 22,000 tons. Launched 1937, foundered on tow after
being torpedoed by U-81 1941.

4. Aircraft Carrier, 50,590 tons. Launched 1950, Paid off 1979.

ObTrav: Does the 3I issue Ship's Badges and Battle Honours?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:02:55 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

SD Mooney wrote:

>1) HMS Sheffield       Type 42 Guided Missile Destroyer - 4 May 1982
>Cause - Exocet Hit, warhead did not detonate but started fire. Sheffield's
>fire main was ruptured, and pumps out. Abandoned when fire became
>uncontrolable. Fire burned out 5 May. Taken under tow, but capsized in bad
>weather and sank.

Captain Sam Salt RN, then Captain of HMS Sheffield, says that it
exploded. Until a better source comes along, I'm taking his word for it.

>Other British ships lost -
>- ------------------------
>a) Atlantic Conveyor - Exocet

Uncertainty as to whether one or two Exocets hit the MV Atlantic
Conveyor. She sank pretty quickly.

[snip]

>>Well the sinking can be attributed to cost savings measures by the British
>>navy.  The ship was a frigate and some years back the Brits started making
>>their guided missile FG's out of high-tech aluminum alloy.
>
>The ship was a destroyer, not a frigate. Primary role is AA, but has a
>secondary ASW fit out.

The ASW fit on a Type 42 DDG is minimal.

>Most sources claim the Exocet did not detonate

See above.

>She sank under tow in bad weather when they wanted to refit her in the UK.
>
>The big Sheffield and Coventry had steel Hulls (the superstructure could
>have been part aluminium). They were Type 42's, which were basically cut
>down Type 81s (HMS Bristol). The aluminium problem was found with the Type
>21 frigates (Ardent and Antelope), which were predominantly aluminium.
>Sheffield's fire systems where down after the hit.

The superstructure on a T42 is steel, too. There are some aluminium
fittings, but none significant enough to be a factor in the fire.

HMS Bristol was a Type 82, designed as the lead ship in a class of heavy
destroyers to escort CVA-01. When CVA-01 was cancelled, so were the rest
of the Type 82s.

The `aluminium problem' on the Type 21s never really occurred as a
flammability issue. The Type 21s *did* suffer from hull cracking (they
were never intended for South Atlantic service). The real `aluminium
problem' was USS Belknap (IIRC), which suffered severe flame damage
after a collision with a carrier.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:19:02 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

SD Mooney wrote:

>>I think that submarines are too stealthy to serve as a model for
>>Traveller space combat. Skimmers, on the other hand, are probably about
>>right.
>
>Skimmers?

Pejorative word for surface-ships and their crews.

>>>>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>>>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>>>
>>>But some girls wander by mistake.
>>
>>Seems like you've got a slight case of overbombing.
>
>... which results in a black planet.

You'll be needing your vision thing, then.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:37:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 

> Of course, and that fact that he's outlasted Metagaming, GDW, Avalon Hill,
> etc., shows he knows what he's doing...

Well, he's got a while to go before he outlasts either Avalon Hill or
GDW...remember GDW was around for 20 years...Avalon Hill was around
longer than that. (Didn't they start up in the 60's?)

Not to disagree with SJG's strategy, though, they have managed to
outlive crises that would have killed less well-run companies. After all
how many other gaming companies were nearly shut down as a national
security risk :-/

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:42:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: SayBOOM goes Green

Growing concerns about the toxic chemical leakages from conventional
batteries has led the Sayat Board for the Optimization and Organization of
Munitions to develop a line of fully biodegradable, nature-friendly
portable power sources.  We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy weapons
line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.

The WHIP is a direct energy input laser pistol (3.2 kilojoule output), of
normal Sayat quality -- far superior to anything you barking little
animals can muster.  A WHIP with a normal complement of weasel assistants
can fire once every five seconds, with individual shots easily capable of
kills against humanoid-sized targets.

The innovation may be seen in the backpack: rather than heavy,
environment-unfriendly batteries, a pair of frisky, adventuresome weasels
run at your command in two separate spinwheels, generating about two watts
of power at normal speeds.  Weasels obtained from SayBOOM are fully
trained and respond to verbal requests for increased output -- up to 10
watts for brief bursts, allowing one shot per second.  At their normal
speed, the weasels can provide up to an hour of uninterrupted power
output.  (Please note that the two wheels spin in opposite directions,
thus cancelling any awkward torque that might be imparted to backpack
wearers in zero-gravity conditions.)

As an added benefit, SayBOOM weasels are also independent attack animals,
able to stalk, chase, and bring down prey much larger than themselves,
particularly when working in tandem.  SayBOOM wish to take this
opportunity to wholeheartedly deny rumors that said weasels are in fact
psionic spies and saboteurs bent on destroying Imperial civilization.

Weasel-Powered DEI Laser Pistol (TL F)
* Discharge Energy: 3.2Kj (input 3.76Kj).  ROF: 1 (per 5 second round)
Power input: 2.09 watts (generated by two 1-kg hamsteroids).	
* Focal Array:  2cm diameter; volume 0.01 litres, mass 0.01kg.
* HPG:  0.15 litres, 0.3kg
* Coolant: 0.04 litres, 0.08kg
* Structure ("ruggedized"): 0.32 litres, 0.32kg
* Backpack wheels:  54 litres (roughly 30x60x60cm), 6kg (including 2
weasels)
* Length: 34.5cm   Weight 0.91kg (+6kg backpack)  Price: Cr310 (n/i
weasels)
Effective Range: 200m  Short Range: 92m (optical sight)
            Short    Medium   Long   Extreme
Range         92      184      368    736
Damage Dice    6        3      1.5    .75
(Designed using FF&SI)

Power Weasel:  1kg Chaser  Hits 6/0, wounds 1 (claws), jack armor, A2 F9
S3 (CT stats)

- -------------
Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #289
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 290



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Beanstalks
Battle Honours (was re: Who says civilian ships...)
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
More "First In" artwork...
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Survey with pictures
RE: SecurityArms
Re: Fusion Guns
re:HMS Ark Royal [Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?]
Re: Beanstalks
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Survey with pictures
Fonts
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: 3D STARMAPPING
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:48:24 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

At 01:20 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
<<Cool sales pitch snipped>>
>P.S. Remember that if the Tether is ever broken by natural forces or
>sabotage at the high anchor, the massive cable will wrap itself three times
>around the earth before the end hits.  That would be Bad.

Three times around the earth?  You mean that the tether extends to a
distance of ~75,000 miles?  I did not think that they reached that high.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:46:27 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Battle Honours (was re: Who says civilian ships...)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
ObTrav: Does the 3I issue Ship's Badges and Battle Honours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
According to MT _Arrival Vengeance: The Final Odyssey_ they do.
_Arrival Vengeance_ had some history of the ship, including the evolution
of its Ship's Badge (stylized AH-class coming toward viewer, tail number, 
Imperial Starburst battle honor, and Domain of Deneb unicorn, IIRC).
I seem to remember Battle Honours are mentioned in Adv. 1 _Kinunir_,
as well, I believe they mentioned a wall of a mess compartment as being 
covered with  battle honours.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:56:51 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/16/99 10:37:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< The ship was a destroyer, not a frigate. Primary role is AA, but has a
 >secondary ASW fit out.
 
 The ASW fit on a Type 42 DDG is minimal. >>

This might explain some of the confusion. I think that the USN (among other
navies) defines ship types by function. Destroyers are ASW ships and cruisers
are AA ships. Frigates are slower cheaper DD's. These are only generalizations
but can cause some confusion. By this reasoning, I could see a type 42 called
a cruiser and a Broadsword as a DD or a frigate...How does the RN classify
surface combatants?

Ob Trav: How does the major interstellar navies classify their ships?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:59:13 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Sulieman survey for G:T owners

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> The other possibilty should be revised, single-deck, deckplans, or revised
> deckplans that turn it into <donning Battledress and loading the FGMP :)  >
> a tail-sitter.

It's entirely possible that you don't have full height decks on the top and
bottom.  The upper deck may have a pitched ceiling while the lower deck may have
sloping floors and be reminiscient of a bomb bay.  If you put your lifesupport
to the sides of these decks rather than in the ceiling or floor you can free  up
more  headroom.  This might also explain the circulatory problems the scouts
suffer.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:50:00 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/16/99 10:37:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< And yes, it is possible to perform flight ops from a STOVL carrier when
 a CTOL carrier can't.
 >>

How? The Nimitz class CVN's are HUGE! Their freeboard is (I think 125' from
waterline to flight deck) and size makes them VERY stable. I would think that
a 90,000 ton platform would be more weather resistant than an Illustrious
class CVS that is only 15,000 tons (I think ?)... Matt what's her tonnage?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:11:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: More "First In" artwork...

Tonight, the final copies of the IISS emblems and patches get ftp'ed to
SJG for inclusion in "First In".  While my contibution isn't nearly as
slick as that of Jesse's gorgeous Lightwave-rendered spacecraft, I 
thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.

(BTW, Jesse, I'm gonna have my *own* copy of Lightwave 3D by this summer.
Don't be surprised if I start bugging you with all sorts of "How do I..."
questions.  I've already got a couple!) :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:12:48 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

|Well, he's got a while to go before he outlasts either Avalon Hill or
|GDW...remember GDW was around for 20 years...Avalon Hill was around
|longer than that. (Didn't they start up in the 60's?)


Let's see: GDW, 1975 - 1996 (sort of)
                  SJG, 1980 - 1999 and still going strong

I'd say that SJG "outlasting" GDW is assured.  As a going concern, it
already has.



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:14:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Survey with pictures

Hi All,
Me again :)  Since Loren's graciously extended the deadline by a week, I've
posted a page with pics of the G:T-style Sulieman with both gear configs
shown.  Even if you don't have G:T or never will (come on, at least it's a
good condensed reference that you can farm from!!!) please take a few
minutes to stop by and take a look with the ol' Mark I eyeball.  Should it
be parallel, nose-down, or should I say f#@% it and shit can that style,
just ignore the geometry and do it like the old illustrations?  Let me know
what you think.  You can e-mail me directly at fenris@slip.net if you want
to save the bandwidth.  However, if you've got a really cool and funny
comment, you might want to post it to the list ;)    <and I wasn't talking
about you Todd!!!>


Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:27:26 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: SecurityArms

On Monday, 15 March 1999 13:32, Matt Clonfero
[SMTP:Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk] wrote:
> Clif wrote:
> 
> >Okay, but what I want to know is what makes this weapon LESS effective
> >than
> >a non-bullpup assault rifle?  Why wouldn't standard infantry carry it?
> > The
> >barrel seems to almost go all of the way back to the butt, so it has
> >considerable length.

The barrel is *very* short.  According to the article, it has a barrel
length of 10.35in.  If you are looking for a 'rear-area' or vehicle crew
weapon, you can get a 6in barreled AR that is about the same size and weight
- - and it fires the standard 5.56mmN round, uses most of the same parts as
the AR15/M16 family (infact, everything is the same except fot the
barrel,/gas tube/hadguards) - including the same magazines.

Also, much of the US is adopting the M4
(http://shoga.wwa.com/~dvelleux/m16rifle.html) due to its more compact size
and weight.
 
> I'm wondering how reliable that complicated feed mechanism is going to
> be under real conditions.

This was one of the biggest problems with the G11.  They also ran into heat
problems with the caseless ammo.  A brass case does a lot to remove the heat
from the action.

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:02:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>>How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
>>plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?
>
>You don't.
>
>Plasmas are contained, accelerated,  and directed using magnetic or other
>non-materiel,  fields. The "barrel" merely acts as a support for the
>field-generation and control equipment.
>
>Of course, the barrel still needs to be built tough to withstand battllefield
>conditions.

But where does the heat go? Especially with a Rapid Fire Plasma Gun...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:07:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:HMS Ark Royal [Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?]

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

>1943 keel laid down at Cammell Laird Yard (Birkenhead)

5 miles from my home....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:33:16 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Beanstalks

>Or current plan is for a four rail tether.
>This will
>amount to capacity for 24,000 displacement tons and 2,400 passengers
>travelling up *and* down each day.  Cost will be in the range of 2 to 12
>credits per ton and 20 to 60 credits per passenger, depending on final
>traffic.

This implies revenues of about a hundred million credits per year, or
construction costs (for a 5% annual ROI) in the 1-2 billion credit range.

For 1-2 billion credits you can buy a couple of hundred hundred-ton shuttles,
each capable of carrying a maybe 60 tons of cargo and 10-20 passengers. 
They can reach orbit in less than an hour. If they make even two flights per
day they'll match the beanstalk, and at 5-10 flights per day they'll
completely surpass it.

Traveller magic reactionless drives are so good that Beanstalks really don't
make a whole lot of sense. (Kind of like arguments about mass transit - only
you're comparing flying cars with a railroad that has to be built straight
up.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:34:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

Bring 'em on Mark!!!!  Can't wait!  <Another Traveller Lightwave convert, my
plan is working perfectly!!!  Bwwhaahhhaaahhhhaaahhhhaaaahah!!!!>  Wait a
second, that would be the FIRST convert :)

Jesse

p.s.  Oh, and since the emblems are now posted, maybe I can get some of them
on the ships :)



>Tonight, the final copies of the IISS emblems and patches get ftp'ed to
>SJG for inclusion in "First In".  While my contibution isn't nearly as
>slick as that of Jesse's gorgeous Lightwave-rendered spacecraft, I
>thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
>of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
>of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
>at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.
>
>(BTW, Jesse, I'm gonna have my *own* copy of Lightwave 3D by this summer.
>Don't be surprised if I start bugging you with all sorts of "How do I..."
>questions.  I've already got a couple!) :^)
>
>        - Mark C.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
> 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:55:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> writes:

>Captain Sam Salt RN, then Captain of HMS Sheffield, says that it
>exploded. Until a better source comes along, I'm taking his word for it.

Fair point. None of the references I have to hand quotes him on that (GDW
South Atlantic War for Harpoon, Brian Hanrahan's book), but they aren't the
most exhaustive (my others are at home). I'm happy to accept his word.

>>The ship was a destroyer, not a frigate. Primary role is AA, but has a
>>secondary ASW fit out.
>The ASW fit on a Type 42 DDG is minimal.

Couple of torpedo tubes, plus a helicopter? HMS Sheffield didn't have the
TTs IIRC.


>>The big Sheffield and Coventry had steel Hulls (the superstructure could
>>have been part aluminium). They were Type 42's, which were basically cut
>>down Type 81s (HMS Bristol). The aluminium problem was found with the Type
>>21 frigates (Ardent and Antelope), which were predominantly aluminium.
>>Sheffield's fire systems where down after the hit.
>
>The superstructure on a T42 is steel, too. There are some aluminium
>fittings, but none significant enough to be a factor in the fire.

I thought that was the case - I remember the PVC wire insulation being
attributed as part of the problem, but the Al issue being a type 21 thing.

>HMS Bristol was a Type 82, designed as the lead ship in a class of heavy
>destroyers to escort CVA-01. When CVA-01 was cancelled, so were the rest
>of the Type 82s.

Oops, the 1 from 21 jumped in place of the 2 in 82...

>The `aluminium problem' on the Type 21s never really occurred as a
>flammability issue. The Type 21s *did* suffer from hull cracking (they
>were never intended for South Atlantic service). The real `aluminium
>problem' was USS Belknap (IIRC), which suffered severe flame damage
>after a collision with a carrier.

I suspect the Al build means that the ship wouldn't be as easily
recoverable from battle damage (unlike the initial plans to repair HMS
Sheffield).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:58:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>Skimmers?
>
>Pejorative word for surface-ships and their crews.

I see... I'd generally agree, but I don't think that modern missile weapons
and fighters/bombers have a Traveller feel.

>>>>>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>>>>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>>>>But some girls wander by mistake.
>>>Seems like you've got a slight case of overbombing.
>>... which results in a black planet.
>You'll be needing your vision thing, then.

Or a torch, which will let me see More of the Colours around, unless I just
Walk away.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:12:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Growing concerns about the toxic chemical leakages from conventional
> batteries has led the Sayat Board for the Optimization and Organization of
> Munitions to develop a line of fully biodegradable, nature-friendly
> portable power sources.  We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
> our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy weapons
> line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.

DAMMMIT KENJI!!!! Don't post these at lunchtime!!!!

Now I gotta clean the #!@@# keyboard AGAIN!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:17:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>  Should it
> be parallel, nose-down, or should I say f#@% it and shit can that style,
> just ignore the geometry and do it like the old illustrations?  Let me know
> what you think.  

I vote nosedown posture. It adds atmosphere to the sulieman to have
everything roll towards the nose when it lands, as if the air cleaning
system isn't atmosphere enough ;-)

It fits right in with the whacked-out kooks ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h rugged
individualists that the scout services have on these things...just a
little off-kilter.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 20:35:23 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Fonts

The recent thread about the Omni font has spurred my interest. I'm working on a program 
that can reproduce some of the forms from Supplement 12: Forms and Charts, and it would 
be cool to have them look as close as possible. I know _nothing_ about fonts and 
such...so does anyone know:

What was the font used:

For CT LBB Covers: (I believe people are saying Omni...)
For CT LBB Interior Text

I would LOVE to get my hands on these fonts (or clones) so that this program's output 
looks "authentic".

Thanks for any help...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:31:57 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

At 11:59 AM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>|> Does some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter
>|> rules for T:TSE?
>
>
>Ref: "So, you walk into this bar."
>
>Players: "What's the name of the establishment?"
>
>Ref: "The Bar.  Anyway, you walk up to the bar and the bartenders says,
>'What can I get you?'  So what do you say?"
>
>Players: "I ask the guy his name and I look around to see what else is going
>on."
>
>Ref: "The bartender's name is Guy.  The rest of the patrons are doing bar
>stuff, like drinking and playing cards.  Now what?"
>
>Players: "I order a drink and leave a big tip, then ask what's going on
>around town these days, kinda hinting when I ask."
>
>Ref: "Guy gives you a glass of ale from the single tap and replies, 'Oh, you
>know, the usual stuff.' and pockets your tip."
>
>
>There, that ought to do it for just about every Generic game.  :-D
>
>

Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!

The bar is the 'Dunken Dwarf' run by an ex-dunk dwarf with the human use
name of Ralf.  He wares his beard parted and braided into a pair of
'Princess Laya' earmuffs.  The bouncer by the door is a bald ogre wearing
just a loin cloth make from a blacksmith's apron and uses half of a wagon
axle as a billy club.  A preteen vampire girl trades her charms for blood
and money in a room upstairs.  The fence that specializes in cutting up and
selling very hot jewlery that you came here to find is played 'darts' with
daggers with a one eyed hobbit in the back corner of the bar.  The fence is
not happy.  He's losing.  You swere and order a strong drink as you worry
over the price you will get for princess' treassures.  The crown would have
been worth a great deal more without the sword cut and the dried blood will
have to be cleaned form the rudy neckless.  Pity she knew how to fight.
That princess would have brought a tidy profit in ransom or perhaps a
smaller price from the slavers across the border if 'daddy' was not to
bright.  That was the original plan after all but you will still make out
ok.  The others did not see you pocket the girl's baubles in their panic
over having killed their kidnap victim. The payout would have been fair
split 12 ways but rich indeed when not devided at all.  You make a mental
note to leave a anonimous note for the magistrate to insure that your
'partners' do not cause you any problem.  You set your glass down to cheer,
for very personal reasons, the fence's last minute victory over the one eyed
hobbit.  Your bussiness should soon be finished here and the ship you have
booked passage on leaves at dawn.  Things are definately looking up.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:33:49 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Only your keyboard Bruce?!  I think Diet Pepsi soaked through my notebook's
keyboard and into th430 wsprocessor43098jsd a0q9jjnnnnnddd  siiii
jfdc;aj03asing severeeeee  ljawopsroblemssakja;ljfsdf.acmvjlakjs;d
s;ldjfow0i02dskajflj029jdkjsl>>>>>>>>zzzzzzzzcchhakkk pop!!!!

Jesse :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:50:26 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

|Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!


That was Generic, like GURPS.  Synonymous with boring. :-p

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:56:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

Hmm, what would l like to see in FF&S3?  I'd like to see everything
reduceable to a scale of seven words, like this:

Terrible	Poor	Mediocre	Fair	Good	Great	Superb

You know, you'd have "Poor drives", but "Superb armor" and a "Great plasma
weapon" and everything would be pretty much made up on the spot by the GM
without regard to engineering, physics or anything real...

You could call it Fudge, Fusion & Steel :-)

Hee hee, I had you going until that last line, didn't I? (Sounds of
Charles scurrying madly behind cover to avoid gearhead attacks by 573.446
Megawatt lasers with their 21.223 m^3 volume and a 44.667 ton weight...)

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:04:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 

> 
> Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
> 
> The bar is the 'Dunken Dwarf' run by an ex-dunk dwarf with the human use
> name of Ralf.  He wares his beard parted and braided into a pair of
> 'Princess Laya' earmuffs. 

You've obviously not played with my players...this is a _great_
description. Now come up with 25 of them, real time, as your players
wander from bar to bar looking for likely place...


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:23:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> > 
> > Growing concerns about the toxic chemical leakages from conventional
> > batteries has led the Sayat Board for the Optimization and Organization of
> > Munitions to develop a line of fully biodegradable, nature-friendly
> > portable power sources.  We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
> > our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy weapons
> > line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.
> 
> DAMMMIT KENJI!!!! Don't post these at lunchtime!!!!
> 
> Now I gotta clean the #!@@# keyboard AGAIN!

Sorry, Bruce.

Did we mention that the weasels are highly absorbent and suitable for use
as nasal spray guards?

There was a slight problem with how I calculated that pesky little input
power demand thingy, and -- to borrow Comrade Ditzie's phrase -- it needs
a lot more weet-bix.

Two weasels = 1 shot per half hour.

~720 weasels = 1 shot/5 second combat round.

We apologize for this slight oversight.  We take it as demonstrated that
the flaws are merely basic and fundamental, while the design is perfect in
its details.  Orders will be accepted for wholesale and retail lots
immediately.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:36:26 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: 3D STARMAPPING

> Musashi wrote:
> > Has anyone on this list ever follishly try to render the known universe
> > in 3d as opposed to 2D?
> >

I tried some time ago, and i downloaded a list of HTMLized near stars, and with some
software (Starmap, i've got the file to unzip it on a win95 system, 1,73 Mb. long if
you don't find it) i was able to represent them.

I needed to make some conversions so that the alt-dec and paralax astronomical
position coordinates gets to be a tree dimensional point cartesian coordinates, but
again i found some help in a web site.

Tell me if you're interested, and i'll remove all electronic dust over all these to
send to you the files, or the URL.


Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:47:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>        Hi, folks...  for anyone running a 21rst/22nd century Earth/
>Solomani game, here is a table that I am using to determine NPC Ethnic
>Origins.  My game is set 2099, non-canon, so the table is stited a bit...
>Terra has been a star-faring planet for 85 years.
[table snipped]
>
>        Comment, questions and critiques are, as always, welcome....

I would increase the chance of 'mixed' parents, and furthermore allow for
more than two ethnic backgrounds.  Judging by both my friends and my kids,
I anticipate a lot more people having mixed ethnic backgrounds in the next
century.

For example, one of my neighbour's has Greek, Cypriot, and Pakistani
grandparents, her husband's grandparents are Italian -- so how would you
classify her kids, other than Canadian (which is how the whole family
views themselves)?

Thinking about it, the majority of my married friends are in 'mixed'
marriages, and none of my girlfriends have been Caucasian (let alone
English). I don't think I'm _that_ unusual...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #290
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 291



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who  Parody)
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
[Debate] Dilgaadin 3 resp various
GT: Sulieman survey
Re: Parking Orbits
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re: More "First In" artwork...
[BITS] Website update 16/3/99
GSG9 and the FAMAS?
First Lightwave convert...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:52:25 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

At 03:50 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>|Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
>
>
>That was Generic, like GURPS.  Synonymous with boring. :-p
>
>

Generally speaking you get out of something what you are willing to put into
it.  If you are unwilling to invest the time and creativity to make your
adventures interesting they will be boring regardless of the system you are
using.  Some of the most boring gaming I have taken part in were run by GMs
that just blindly followed a published adventure.  Some without ever reading
it before hand.  The adventures where good but the presentation was terible.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:52:36 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who  Parody)

At 02:04 PM 3/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
>> 
>> The bar is the 'Dunken Dwarf' run by an ex-dunk dwarf with the human use
>> name of Ralf.  He wares his beard parted and braided into a pair of
>> 'Princess Laya' earmuffs. 
>
>You've obviously not played with my players...this is a _great_
>description. Now come up with 25 of them, real time, as your players
>wander from bar to bar looking for likely place...
>
>

Not a problem.  I send waste time thinking up such things.  I can also run
most situations off the cuff with little slow down in the game.  I've been
playing RPG and GMing for almost 20 years.  I've got lots of material I can
reuse.  The dwarf becomes a Feringi, the ogre a Wookie, the jewels a data
disk...  You just need a little imagination.  A few 'prepared' stock gaffs
and muguffins help also.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:09:39 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> There was a slight problem with how I calculated that pesky little input
> power demand thingy, and -- to borrow Comrade Ditzie's phrase -- it needs
> a lot more weet-bix.
> 
> Two weasels = 1 shot per half hour.
> 
> ~720 weasels = 1 shot/5 second combat round.
> 
> We apologize for this slight oversight. 

Have you considered installing some sort of battery/capacitor, 
so the weasels can run their little weasel hearts out during 
those tedious weeks in jumpspace, and store up enough juice to 
actually allow this to be used in combat? I know it detracts
from the purity of the concept, but I might order one with
Offline Weasel Capability.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:11:28 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [Debate] Dilgaadin 3 resp various

"Dilgaadin"

First, I should like to apologize for my absence from this
forum; the duties of my position and a mild illness conspired to
absorb the vast majority of my time of late. Nevertheless, I
have done my best to keep abreast of the discussion, and feel
that I as an individual and we as a community have so far
profited from its having taken place.

That said, I reenter this forum at this time because I have
strong feeling about the way it has gone, and of some of the
sentiments expressed here. I believe that we have lost sight of
the purpose of this debate, and I would address that, as well as
responding to specific points that have been brought forward.

To all appearances, much of the protest in favor of the status
quo are due to the use of ill-defined - or perhaps it would be
more accurate to say 'undefined' - terms, such as 'oppressive'
governments.  I must point out that I brought up this very point
in my initial response to Gallatin's opening statement in this
debate. Certainly, I have seen none of the participants take up
the issue; doubtless there are good and proper reasons for this,
though they may not be visible to one of my limited perception.
Even so, this may legitimately be classed as a detail of
implementation, while the debate here is, or at least should be,
about whether change is necessary, and if so, to what purpose.
Gallatin sets out a compelling case for change; I have noticed
many of the same stresses of which he speaks.

To the question of the practicality of a representative
structure, I answer thus: there is no necessary connection
between size and practicality. It is the responsibility of the
higher levels of government to take the higher and longer views;
local issues must in general be managed at the local level. This
might seem to be an endorsement of the status-quo; I hold that
it is not, as the activism comes into play when it is seen that
the lower levels have proven unequal to the task, whether from
inability or unwillingness to deal properly with the issue.
Until that is shown, it would be inappropriate for the higher
levels to get involved, save at the explicit request of the
lower levels. Activism, in this case, is simply the policy of
responding to requests for help (as opposed to saying "it's your
local problem; take care of it yourself"), and of not waiting
for the request for help, if it is apparent that a situation is
getting out of control. This is not that much different from
the present reality; perhaps we merely seek to lower the
threshold for intervention.

But, under the restructuring, it becomes the responsibility of
the higher levels of government to also be aware of the
situations at lower levels, and to direct the attention of those
lower levels to those situations, so that they do not come to
the point where it is necessary for the higher levels to
actively intervene. At this stage, advice and recommendations
are available, but not proffered without request; here, the
activist Imperium merely says, "You have the potential for a
problem; it would be a good idea to prevent the potential from
becoming an actuality". Regardless of how the higher levels are
structured, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual
observer that there cannot be a single level of government
between the people and the Emperor, any more than that situation
obtains at present with our hereditary nobility; it is this
hierarchicalization that both enables oversight and prevents
meddling.

To the question of beholdenness of nobles versus elected
officials: Do those who claim that the one is more - or less -
beholden than the other know truly whereof they speak? A large
portion of our nobility is not enfeoffed of inherently
productive lands, but instead in a manner that their estates and
incomes are tied to the fortunes of locally dominant
corporations. Look to the lists of the directorates of the
largest corporations; see just how often "Sir", "von", "hault",
"His/Her Excellency", "His/Her Grace", or their equivalents in
High Vilani or High Sylean appear. To argue in favor of or
against a hereditary nobility on this basis is a false argument;
economic power and political power are but two sides of the same
coin, and will invariably attract each other as a magnet
attracts iron. Elective office is clearly no different; the
elected official is no less beholden to those who provide the
lion's share of campaign funding - which will be the same
corporations that the present nobility is equally beholden - or
not - to.

To the question of "joining the Hivers" in manipulation of the
people, as contrasted with joining the Solomani and Zhodani in
fear of change: I propose no such thing. Hiver manipulations are
active, true, but they seek to create social patterns of the
choosing of the manipulator. I propose instead that the people
should be permitted to choose, and the Imperium to respond -
rather than being the manipulator, the Imperium would be in
truth more like the manipulatee. Even this comparison is
inappropriate; in our mutual humanity, we have more in common
with the Solomani or even the Zhodani than we do with the
Hivers; our physiology and psychology are similar enough that
mutual comprehension is possible, even if agreement is not. With
the alien in physiology as well as psychology, mutual
comprehension can be no more than superficial; and agreement is
possible only on those issues where common comprehension occurs;
thus, unification with the Two Thousand Worlds, the Hive
Federation, or the Aslan Hierate is far more unlikely than
unification with the Zhodani Consulate or reabsorption of the
Solomani Sphere. This is not belied by the existence of
non-Human worlds within our dominion; these worlds are either
far less integrated into our Imperium than Human worlds (as
with, for example, the Jgd-Il-Jagd or the Githiaskio), or their
inhabitants have shown a psychology that is surprisingly similar
to and/or compatible with that of Imperial Humanity (as with the
Vargr or the Bawapakerwa-a-a-awapawab).

To the issue of granting more power to the Imperium than it
already has: It is clear from the text of the Warrant of
Restoration that the Imperium already has all the powers under
discussion: the Warrant explicitly reserves to the Imperium the
right to unilaterally change the relationship between itself and
its Member Worlds. Rather, then, than this being a debate over
the granting of power, it becomes clear that it should instead
be considered in the nature of an open discussion and offering
of advice to the Emperor, that he or his heirs or descendants
may benefit from the Imperial Power and use it wisely, rather
than exercising it imprudently, without preparation or counsel.
That the power has not in the recent past been indiscriminately
exercised is irrelevant; the possibility remains always, and
none in this debate have proposed such indiscriminate use of the
power. Is it not better that this should be discussed in the
open, now, before a crisis requires action without due
reflection, than that we wait, only to discover at the moment of
crisis that we are in the hands of another Cleon III, with
results more disastrous in the future than in the past?

To the question of abolishing the Nobility and infeudation in
favor of a Federal Republic, with a written Charter of Rights:
It has been offered as justification that the hereditary
nobility has devolved into mediocrity and incompetence; how
farther from the truth could this be? Our enfeoffed nobility is
by no means perfect, and there are wastrels among them, but by
and large, the evidence is that the vast majority are
responsible individuals, exercising their powers and meeting
their responsibilities in a competent manner. These in general
also have the support of higher level nobles, some of whom are
more than merely competent; I name no examples, as the readers
of this debate will surely recognize those to whom I allude. No,
I see no widespread incompetence or mediocrity that needs to be
'repaired' through the mechanism of a Federal Republic with
elective administration, for such would be no less prone to
mediocrity and incompetence than the present noble structure is,
and would in addition be most skilled not at administration and
the discharge of obligation, but at the projecting of charisma
and the artful evasion of responsibility, through the
manipulation of language and emotion. The elective obligation is
no obligation at all, as an examination of experience throughout
our Imperium and of the past of prominent cultures thereof will
reveal; the feudal obligation extends both above and below, as
it is the noble's responsibility to collect taxes and supply
levies as demanded by his lord, from whose fief his own derives,
and also to protect those on whom he depends for the production
of those revenues and those levies, and who look to him for that
protection, and for justice, and for mercy. This extends from
the local barons, who must needs directly deal with the people,
all the way up to the Emperor, who is answerable to none, save
the ultimate power of the Moot to dissolve the Imperium, and
with it the Imperial Power, but who is also the fount of all
honor and privilege, and is ultimately responsible for and to
the entire Imperium. It is true that the obligations downward
may be neglected; it is this, among other things, that a
restructuring and revitalization of the Imperium would address.
Where the higher levels of government take interest in the
happenings on lower levels, the lower levels cannot fail to do
so as well, lest they themselves be perceived as the problem,
and thus become the target of measures to be taken.

Yet the voice of the people must be heard, and representative
councils appear to be a powerful method to ensure this.  With
the ultimate power and responsibility for setting policy in the
hands of the nobility, the representative councils could perhaps
be given a consultative role in the implementation of that
policy, and an advisory role in the creation of it, providing a
channel not answerable to either the planetary government nor to
the nobility, but to the people themselves, for expressing the
concerns and needs thereof.

To abolish the nobility would be to destroy the Imperium;
interstellar communication is simply too slow to permit the
formation of a Federal Republic on an Imperial scale - although
there is no reason that polities - even multi-world polities -
subordinate to the Imperium could not be so organized, if they
so choose.

To the question of similarity of proposals aired here to
government structures emplaced elsewhere: It is distressing to
see proposals attacked on what is best characterized as an ad
hominem basis; that governments with distasteful practices
maintain structure with meritous characteristics does not render
those structures contaminated: were it otherwise, one would have
to argue similarly against even the present structure of the
Imperium, as it is virtually certain that one could find _in_
the Imperium governments that are structured identically, but
which maintain distasteful practices.  Similarly, one can
equally likely find governments both within and without the
Imperium that are quite successful and desirable, yet which
maintain structures similar to those of governments we find
distasteful. Would this be a reason to intervene in these
successful governments, and force a change in their operation?
Nay, the mere structure of a government should cause neither
preference nor dispreference; different societies, even within
our Imperium, will have differing needs, and it is up to the
Imperium to respect those differences, and to cherish the
diversity - but not to tolerate that which is inherently
oppressive. Even there, circumspection is indicated, as it is
ultimately the responsibility of the Imperium to deal with
problems that affect the Imperium as a whole, even if those
problems are expressed locally, and not to get involved in every
petty local dispute. The multi-level structure is inherently a
filter, to ensure that no problem rises too far beyond its
appropriate level.

To the question of a decentralized Federal Republic: This
proposal is even more unworkable than the strong Federal
Republic; the "States' Rights" model preserves the policy of
non-interventionism of the present Imperium, while abolishing
one of the few ties that still hold the Imperium together, that
of feudal obligation. This is a recipe for disaster; it would
result in allowing regions and even worlds to pursue their own
interests in differing directions, without regards for Imperial
interests. Do we really wish to see the Imperium shattered into
dozens or even hundreds of small, ineffective polities, unable
to even coordinate defense well enough to prevent domination by
extant governments which we know are hostile? No, we must
restructure the Imperium to _strengthen_ the ties, and bind the
Member Worlds more tightly to the Imperium, rather than loosen
the ties that exist.

To the question of the goals of the restructuring: It has
perhaps not been made clear, but the goals have been implicitly
stated. Nevertheless, I shall state them more explicitly: The
Imperium no longer has a unifying vision. There is the function
of defense, and the protection of commerce, but there is little
or nothing that makes our people desirous of saying proudly, "I
am an Imperial citizen", or that inspires them to pull together
to a common purpose. Emotionally, our people are disunited;
there is nothing that they can look to beyond their own local
and regional interests. The happenings of the Antares region are
of little interest to the inhabitants of the region 'behind the
claw' or on the rimward frontier; events in those places are of
little interest to the peoples of the Imperial core or Ilelish.
The Imperium needs a common goal, one that can bring our people
together and benefit us all. There are many goals that can
provide this function: war, natural disasters, and visionary
achievement have all been used to this purpose in the past;
which is ultimately selected is a matter for due consideration
by the policy-making bodies of the Imperium: but I propose that
this should be the pursuit of knowledge for the betterment of
the people. By addressing our internal problems at all levels,
by marshaling the resources of the Imperium to our purpose, we
can see to it that none of our worlds or our people need suffer
involuntarily from the conditions of unenlightenment,
uneducation, undevelopment. We can encourage and assist in
technological development, and the accompanying educational
development; we can put our educated people to work exploring
new frontiers of knowledge, and exploring the application of
what we do know to our productivity. With an increase in
production will come greater demands and new uses for that
production; what we can accomplish in the future is
unimaginable, as many of our accomplishments today would have
been unimaginable to the leaders of the Ziru Sirka or the Terran
Confederation.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:13:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: GT: Sulieman survey

Hey, Jesse,

Looking damn good there.  With the people present, I get a much 
better perspective of the relative size of the craft.

I prefer the appearance, by far, of the #2, nose-down view.

The decks can still be assumed to be parallel to the landing pad,
and thus not in line with the wedge configuration.  Grav plates and
inertial compensators can explain why the deck arrangement doesn't
cause problems during flight.  Not very efficient (and definitely
another option besides deck alignment that's parallel and 
perpendicular to thrust), but it works.

Just my opinion.  YMMV.

Keep up the great work,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:09:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits

In mail you write:

> <sigh>
>
> First, my credentials: I have a degree in mathematics, physics, and
> astronomy. I have 9 semester hours in specialized celetial mechanics and
> geodesy courses. I am a rated commercial instrument pilot. I also have 2
> years prior experience with the Space Sensing Branch, Space Sciences
> Division, US Naval Research Laboratory.
>
>>> (1) Again, this is not 2D surface navigation: you cannot simply "fly to" a
>>> satellite and park behind it. If you have to calculate your orbit anyway,
>>> what it the value of the satellite?
>>
>>It establishes that *this* is where *you* are supposed to be parked,
>>and over *there* is where some other ship is supposed to be parked. And
>>you *don't* have to calculate an orbit. _You_merely_have_to_match_
>>velocities_ and move around the satellite until the docking light is
>>centered 
> [emphasis mine]
>
> How do you know that your velocities match, if you didn't calculate the
> orbits? Orbital velocity is a non-linear function of time in three
> dimensions. What you suggest requires calculating the orbit of the
> satellite, and your own orbit, and making the appropriate corrections to
> bring them into alignment.

You check them with doppler radar. And I think you've overlooked the
delta-v available to a standard trader in Traveller. You really
*could* "fly" into a parking slot "dodging" other ships along the way. 
It'd be wasteful as all hell, but it wouldn't be *impractical*. 

Yes, it'd be more efficient to calculate an orbit, and do a minimum
burn rendezvous. It'd also consume far more time than many skippers
would feel like taking. 

Assuming you've got a simulator program that will let you, try plugging
in a max accel of a g or two, and enough fuel for *weeks* of max accel.
(yes, the specific impulse will be totaslly unreasonable. Welcome to
Traveller :-)

Now try doing a "brute force" rendezvous of the type I just described.
It'll *work*. And be *time* efficienct. 

Yes, some of the "flying" is counter-intuitive TO US. Someone who has
been doing this sort of manuever weekly (or even daily for ground to
orbit shuttles), it'll be old hat. 

>>Sorry, but you have been reading overly simplified descriptions. The
>>*general* three body solution (ie you start with any three bodies, of
>>any masses, in any position, with any velocities) is what is generally
>>called "insoluble". There *is* a solution. But it involves a converging
>>series that converges too slowly to be *practical*. 
>
> Fundamentals of Astrodynamics, Bate, Mueller, and White -- which is still
> the standard introductory text on celestial mechanics, even at the graduate
> level -- p. 9:
>
> "[The n-body equation] is a second order, nonlinear, vector, differential
> equation of motion _which_has_defied_solution_ in its present form."
> [emphasis mine]

> Solving an n-body problem requires 6n integrals: 3 each of position and
> motion for every body. But only 10 integrals can be obtained from the
> general equation of motion. Thus 2-body problems can be solved
> analytically, but 3-body solutions require restrictions (co-planar, etc.)
> before they become solvable.
>
> The "solutions" to which you refer are numerical integrations,
> approximations run by iteration on fast computers. I grant you the better
> the computer, the better the approximation.

I don't have the references handy, but there does indeed exist a
*theoretical* solution. As I stated, it involves a converging series.
One that converges at an infinitesmal rate. As I recall, said solution
was discovered something like 50-100 years ago. It *predated*
computers. 

As far as the math types are concerned, the problem is "solved". The
fact that their solution is useless doesn't bother them. :-(

>>> (4) How many of these things should one expect to see in orbit? Hundreds?
>>> At what point do they become a hazard to navigation all out of proportion
>>> to their usefulness? Plan a large enough margin of error (10 km? 100 km?)
>>> between on-orbit parking assignments and there is no need for the
>>> additional clutter.
>>
>>Get real. You aren't grasping the *scale* involved. To become hazards
>>you'd not only need *millions* of them, you'd have to have them in all
>>sorts of orbits. 
>
> I am quite serious. By definition, these objects inhabit the very orbits
> and tracks where most of your commercial space traffic takes place. How
> much time, computationally, is required to _ensure_ that any particular
> ship's orbit will not intersect one of them? Remember, the orbits are not
> deterministic and they change with time. The pilot may not care ("big sky,
> little bullet"), but I assure you his insurance underwriter does. Notice
> the reference to "the probability of collision" in the quotation above?
>
> It is certainly possible, but it is wasteful and an unnecessary risk.
>
>>So what if the distance between them varies from 10 to 1000 meters.
>>Given that (for example) geosynch orbit has a length of over 230,000
>>km, you could park ships 10 km apart and have 23,000 of them parked. 
>>
>>Obviously, all parking orbits need to be at the same inclination (and
>>probably circular), but if you get really strapped for space, you start
>>assigning with differing radii. 
>>
>>To hold a million ships, you only need 40 orbits with 25,000 slots each
>>or 50 with 20,000 slots each. Assume the radii are set every 100 km or
>>so, that has the ships spread out in an annulus 5000 km "across". But
>>there's still *plenty* of space for traffic.
>
> Thank you, you've just made my point very nicely: if there is so much room,
> who needs the additional clutter and expense of "parking" satellites? Just
> assign my unique orbital elements (which you would have to do anyway, to
> tell me where to find my "parking" satellite) and let me obtain that orbit
> and sit there, without having to worry about my position relative to some
> satellite. My orbit may be slightly perturbed by gravitational anomolies
> and n-body effects, but there is (now) nothing within the magnitude of that
> error to hit.

We just have to give you the transponder code for the satellite. 

One detail that you've overlooked is that as ship that has just jumped
into the system doesn't *have* data that is required to *use* those
orbital elements. He knows his distance from the planet, and his 3-axis
velocity relative to it. 

He does *not* know his *orientation* with respect to the co-ordinate
system. 

As I recall, the elements of an orbit are:

1. semi-major axis
2. eccentricity
3. inclination
4. longitude of the periapsis
5. longitude of the ascending node
6. time of periapsis passage

(I think I forgot one, but the above will do).

Numbers 3, 4, & 5 all depend on a *local* co-ordinate system.
Establishing his relation to that co-ordinate system is going to be
messy. 

I submit that it's actually *easier* to assign a satellite as a
reference point, and to assign others as "channel markers". 

So rather than having to spend a lot of time establishing his
co-ordinates, the pilot gets a list of trasponder squawks and what his
relative position and velocity should be. Three satellites define a
triangle, and he's to pass between them at a given time and velocity.
That restricts his path and position sufficiently for most purposes.

In actuality, I expect that there will be some elements of steering by
reference to markers, and some elements of having traffic control tell
you where you are. 

> Lastly, consider that someone has to place, maintain, and recover the
> things; someone also has to pay for this activity. A significant fraction
> of the time and manpower of US Coast Guard and Federal Aviation
> Administration are devoted to the maintenance of navigational markers.

It'll be similar with any likely system of handling things. just keep
in mind that any practical system is going to need lots of satellites.
Either as "markers", or as navigational references.

> To summarize: "parking" satellites would be an unnecessary, redundant and
> expensive source of information better obtained elsewhere, and a potential
> hazard to navigation. Hence, I find them unlikely.

And I find at leasst *some* use of them quite likely. *Especially*
farther out ("park by bouy 789 until the customs lighter has checked
you over...").

As I point out above, *somehow* a ship needs to determine its relation
to the planetary co-ordinate system *or* it needs to have a series of
"markers" it can navigate with reference to. 

It's *way* too expensive to have traffic control sensors that can
quickly determine the ship's position and velocity to the required
accuracy for navigation solely by orbital elements. So you *have* to
have a *large* constellation of satellites to make something akin to
GPS workable (given the space to be covered, you'll need many, *many*
thousands of them). Or you need "markers" to navigate by. Probably some
combo of each.

The computer would handle most of it, but any smart navigator will be
checking along by hand, at least enough to be sure that the answers are
reasonable.

"Ok, marker 0000 is a statite above *north* pole, marker 9000 is
 statite above *south* pole. Check. *That* way is planetary north."

I figure they'd have two, both for redunancy and so that *no* possible
approach would be unable to spot at least *one* of them.

"Marker 5000 defines leading, 5900 defines trailing. Check."

(probably another pair of statites, riding in planetary orbit a couple
hundred diameters ahead and behind it)

"Time hacks from the primary 4 markers give local time as...."

At this point, you know at least *roughly* how you fit into the local
co-ordinate system. Reference to an ephemeris and a lot of calculations
will refine the position, as will further observations of other
satellites. 

But for smaller ports, just homing on an assigned beacon may be *much*
cheaper for the port.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:03:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In mail you write:

> That gibes with what I heard. I still sense some design flaws in the ship. By
> this description, it sounds like the design didn't have enough combat
> redundancy in her DC equipment, though the hit location sounds like bad luck
> as well. I also vaguely read somplace that she lacked a close in weapon 
> system
> and ECM suite, so the missile couldn't by shot down/jammed. Lastly I heard
> that the missile was picked up very late on radar (last 30-40 seconds of
> flight?), which if true makes me wonder about her sensor suite.

As I recall, part of the problem was that Exocets, being a NATO weapon,
were default classified as *friendly* by the sensor suite. That led to
a lot of software changes by *everyone* as it sunk in that you had to
assume that someday you just might be fighting "allies". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:09:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers

In mail you write:

>
> Robert, this looks really great -- I'll definitely try using it in a
> design or two soon.
>
> Can you tell me (or estimate) how much wattage a hamster-type critter
> running in one of those wheels might generate?

Is that with or without methamphetamine added to the sugar water
bottle? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:35:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

>> I
>>thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
>>of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
>>of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
>>at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.

The imperial Grand Survey Office's patch is one Square/Right Angle away from
whipping up conspiracy theories about the control of Freemasons.  : )
>>
What's the story behind the Pony Express-Like patch with the 8 or 4 legged
beast? (depending on how you look at it)  Where does this beast come from?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:51:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Website update 16/3/99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

Another month, and the website has been updated again. If you go to
http://www.bits.org.uk/ you'll be able to find the following:

- - Info on GenCon UK (1 to 5 Sept 99) linked to the RPGA site.
- - Reduced size menu buttons, to help those of you running less than 800 x 600.
- - A reorganised Travelling page (faster load with most photos no longer
inline). New Con details.
- - A few words on TowerCon, from last weekend.
- - Corrected links to Vision Forge Graphics (Jesse's site)

The changes are mainly administrative, but let me know what you think (off
list would be fine).

Keep the Flame,

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:57:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: GSG9 and the FAMAS?

>Then what was it I saw fired by GSG9 during a demo at Ft. Benning?  It
>looked exactly like a G-11, but was obviously loaded in a conventional (for
>a bullpup) manner.

Was that the FAMAS?  I almost bought one of those babies after I bought my
AR-15A2 and its Starlite Scope, but I decided against it.  Man, I'd have a
considerable arsenal for 2 people if I had...  Bummer.  I'm not even sure
you can buy them in this country, anymore.  I think the wunnerful govt. put
a stop to imports, last I heard.

Wow, that must have been a treat!  That makes you the only person I've met
who has seen them with their own eyes.


I forget, is GSG9 the same as GIGENE?

- --Clif

P.S.:  And I'm not talking about any Demi Moore movie, either.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:00:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: First Lightwave convert...

Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net> writes:

> Bring 'em on Mark!!!!  Can't wait!  <Another Traveller Lightwave convert, my
> plan is working perfectly!!!  Bwwhaahhhaaahhhhaaahhhhaaaahah!!!!>  Wait a
> second, that would be the FIRST convert :)

Why not.  After all, as I recall, one of the "other" first disciples
was named "Mark". :^)

> p.s.  Oh, and since the emblems are now posted, maybe I can get some of
> them on the ships :)

Let me know which ones you plan to use and I'll provide high-res copies
in the raster format of your choice!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #291
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 292



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Fonts
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #288
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: SecurityArms
Re: First Lightwave convert...
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: Font Conversion
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: Survey with pictures
Re: Couple new pics up
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Re: More "First In" artwork...
101 Starships
101 Starships
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: Couple new pics up
For the "humor challenged"
Re: Survey with pictures
Re: SecurityArms
Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re: Traveller: The Pak Wars
Re: SecurityArms
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Survey with pictures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:00:31 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Fonts

igor@truserve.com wrote:

>The recent thread about the Omni font has spurred my interest. I'm working
>on a program
>that can reproduce some of the forms from Supplement 12: Forms and Charts,
>and it would
>be cool to have them look as close as possible. I know _nothing_ about
>fonts and
>such...so does anyone know:
>
>What was the font used:
>
>For CT LBB Covers: (I believe people are saying Omni...)
>For CT LBB Interior Text

Marc Miller posted something on this a while ago - I can't remember if it
was here or on the TWG list.

Anyway, you can get an idea of Omni if you look at the BITS site
(http://www.bits.org.uk/) - the menu buttons, and the Vertical Text are
generated from Omni in Adobe Illustrator. It's very close to the MT font.
Rob has used it in 101 Starships for GT and 102 vehicles, too. Both of
these are on the download page.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:04:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

"Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:

>|Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
>That was Generic, like GURPS.  Synonymous with boring. :-p

Hmm, living up to the address, I see. ;-)

<Whoompf as the liberally sprayed petrol lights up).

ObTrav: Would Swordworlders in the Marches provoke flame wars on the X-Boat
lists...?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:12:13 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #288

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:53:59 -0500, Peter Newman
<pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>To properly crossover Callahans we will have to move it from Long
>Island, unless your campaign is set on Terra.

From the intro to _Time_Travellers_Strictly_Cash_:

"...any bar can be Callahan's place, as soon as responsible
people start hanging out there together. ..."

Why move it when you can create it?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:07:03 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

Clif wrote:
> 
<<snip discussion of IISS patches>>
> >>
> What's the story behind the Pony Express-Like patch with the 8 or 4 legged
> beast? (depending on how you look at it)  Where does this beast come from?
> 
> --Clif

That, sir, is a "poni."  The poni is a riding beast found on certain
Imperial worlds.  When the Communications Branch was devising a
distinctive patch, they wanted to invoke the legends of the Pony Express
from pre-starflight Terra.  As the riding beast with which the artist
was most familiar was the poni, said artist assumed that this was the
animal ridden by the ancient Terran dispatch riders.

(The above is from my memories of the "Scouts and Assassins" book, from
[IIRC] Paranoia Press.  This book is also the source of the Scout
equivalent to the Purple Heart, the Silver Asteroid [a.k.a the "Tin
Hemorrhoid"].)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:12:02 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

Hey Annti, ever read the Bond book "IceBreaker"?

Man, you fired both the G11K2 AND the P90?  What do you do for a living?  Do
I need a degree?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:15:42 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: First Lightwave convert...

>Why not.  After all, as I recall, one of the "other" first disciples
>was named "Mark". :^)



ROFL!!!


>> p.s.  Oh, and since the emblems are now posted, maybe I can get some of
>> them on the ships :)
>
>Let me know which ones you plan to use and I'll provide high-res copies
>in the raster format of your choice!



Cool beans.  I'll send you what I'm looking for a little later (maybe
tomorrow or so) off-list.  Thanks!!!

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:17:59 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>This might explain some of the confusion. I think that the USN (among other
>navies) defines ship types by function. Destroyers are ASW ships and cruisers
>are AA ships. Frigates are slower cheaper DD's. These are only generalizations
>but can cause some confusion.

Lots of confusion; the Arleigh Burke DDG has no helicopter - and hence is 
almost useless for ASW - but has a full Aegis armament for AAW.
The USN classification is mostly by size/price these days.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:23:34 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

Sorry to be late in putting my Cr.02 in as well.  You can see that
description in the "First In" playtest documents as well.

Jesse

>That, sir, is a "poni."  The poni is a riding beast found on certain
>Imperial worlds.  When the Communications Branch was devising a
>distinctive patch, they wanted to invoke the legends of the Pony Express
>from pre-starflight Terra.  As the riding beast with which the artist
>was most familiar was the poni, said artist assumed that this was the
>animal ridden by the ancient Terran dispatch riders.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:35:37 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Font Conversion

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:43:05 -0500, "Mark Seemann"
<dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk> wrote:

>Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:32:10 GMT jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:

>>If you're referring to the font that was used for the cover/title
>>page (the word TRAVELLER), look for anything with one of the
>>following names:

>>Optima
>>Optim
>>Opta
>>Zapf Humanist

>This reminds me of something I've always been wondering about:
>Does anyone know the name of the font which was used for the
>MegaTraveller 'logo' on the GDW/DGP MT covers?

That's a pretty good match for "Peignot".  Some knockoffs of it
have been called "Penguin".

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:26:11 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

In a message dated 3/16/99 2:14:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time, markc@peak.org
writes:

> Tonight, the final copies of the IISS emblems and patches get ftp'ed to
>  SJG for inclusion in "First In".  While my contibution isn't nearly as
>  slick as that of Jesse's gorgeous Lightwave-rendered spacecraft, I 
>  thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
>  of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
>  of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
>  at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.

Very, very nice.  Naturally these aren't quite identical to the pictures I had
in my head when I wrote the verbal descriptions -- but they're pretty damn
close considering you and I have never communicated.  Kudos.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:34:35 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

Besides, as an old ex-hotrodder, you ALWAYS jack up the rear!! Pump more
air into those air shocks , man!

Seriously, since your sort of stuck with the "fatboy" look, I vote for
the nose down approach.

Mike

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> >  Should it
> > be parallel, nose-down, or should I say f#@% it and shit can that style,
> > just ignore the geometry and do it like the old illustrations?  Let me know
> > what you think.
> 
> I vote nosedown posture. It adds atmosphere to the sulieman to have
> everything roll towards the nose when it lands, as if the air cleaning
> system isn't atmosphere enough ;-)
> 
> It fits right in with the whacked-out kooks ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h rugged
> individualists that the scout services have on these things...just a
> little off-kilter.
> 
>

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:34:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Couple new pics up

>Not a problem.  My site address is:
>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
Hey, that Donosev is looking good now, even if it does look like it wants to
procreate with someone.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:17:40 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

It would be realistic to increase the probability of "Japanese/Korean"
ancestry.
Even today, Japan has more of a space program than many people realize.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:27:04 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

In a message dated 3/16/99 5:40:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

> The imperial Grand Survey Office's patch is one Square/Right Angle away from
>  whipping up conspiracy theories about the control of Freemasons.  : )

<* chuckle *>.  I hadn't thought of that.  Actually I got the idea from the
art
of William Blake.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:42:41 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: 101 Starships

Re:  101 Starships survey
>Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated >and
<expanded, or a series of documents?

>The advantage to an ever-expanding document is that ships can be >added
>incrementally, with the possibility of splitting the document 
>thematically
>(eg. into civilian and ,military books) at a future date.

Agreed.  An ever expanding document would be better for this reason.  
Allowing for a degree of speciality to match individual campaign needs 
eg. a mercenary campaign is not going to have much need for a lux 
liner...I know GDW did it bit it was stupid when they did.



- - -----
>Would people like to see material other than a straight list of 
>designs?
>For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.

Leave out encounter rules but optional rules would be needed.  This way 
not to clutter up the upcoming Navy sourcebook with space weapon 
descriptions like High Guard did and allowing to focus on Navy-life.

- - -----
>Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one >format, 
if
>someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a 
>separate
>book for each rule system?

Keep it simple and self contained in one rulebook.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:42:45 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: 101 Starships

Re:  101 Starships survey
>Would people prefer to see a single document, periodically updated >and
<expanded, or a series of documents?

>The advantage to an ever-expanding document is that ships can be >added
>incrementally, with the possibility of splitting the document 
>thematically
>(eg. into civilian and ,military books) at a future date.

Agreed.  An ever expanding document would be better for this reason.  
Allowing for a degree of speciality to match individual campaign needs 
eg. a mercenary campaign is not going to have much need for a lux 
liner...I know GDW did it bit it was stupid when they did.



- - -----
>Would people like to see material other than a straight list of 
>designs?
>For example, encounter tables, optional rules, and so on.

Leave out encounter rules but optional rules would be needed.  This way 
not to clutter up the upcoming Navy sourcebook with space weapon 
descriptions like High Guard did and allowing to focus on Navy-life.

- - -----
>Would there be any advantage to listing ships in more than one >format, 
if
>someone has converted the design? Or would people rather see a 
>separate
>book for each rule system?

Keep it simple and self contained in one rulebook.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:44:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

> Have you considered installing some sort of battery/capacitor, 
> so the weasels can run their little weasel hearts out during 
> those tedious weeks in jumpspace, and store up enough juice to 
> actually allow this to be used in combat? I know it detracts
> from the purity of the concept, but I might order one with
> Offline Weasel Capability.

Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:47:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

LOL, that was funny, but the customer forgot to ask for "the usual."

- --Clif
>There, that ought to do it for just about every Generic game.  :-D

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:48:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Couple new pics up

"Is that a densitometer boom in your pocket or are you just happy to see
me?"  <done in best Mae West imitation>

:)
Jesse



>Hey, that Donosev is looking good now, even if it does look like it wants
to
>procreate with someone.
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:50:01 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: For the "humor challenged"

The generic bar bit was what we on this planet call "a joke."
Hmmm..instead of naming the bartender "Guy", call him "Joe"
as in "Joe Generio".

types out on his weasel powered terminal:
>At 02:04 PM 3/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>> Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
>>> The bar is the 'Dunken Dwarf' run by an ex-dunk dwarf with the human use
>>> name of Ralf.  He wares his beard parted and braided into a pair of
>>> 'Princess Laya' earmuffs. 
>>You've obviously not played with my players...this is a _great_
>>description. Now come up with 25 of them, real time, as your players
>>wander from bar to bar looking for likely place...
>Not a problem.  I send waste time thinking up such things.  I can also run
>most situations off the cuff with little slow down in the game.  I've been
>playing RPG and GMing for almost 20 years.  I've got lots of material I can
>reuse.  The dwarf becomes a Feringi, the ogre a Wookie, the jewels a data
>disk...  You just need a little imagination.  A few 'prepared' stock gaffs
>and muguffins help also.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> The rear struts ARE pretty close to centerline as I recall, but since the
> Sulieman is THREE stories tall at the rear (not the FIVE story monster
> depicted in G:T), there is plenty of room in the ventral spaces. The front
> jack also has a fair amount of room to originate from.

Front jack?  I haven't seen so many pictures of grounded Scout/Couriers,
but I've got a third gear configuration.  There are only two gear, and
they're farther forward as indicated on the old floorplan.  The third
landing point is the hull itself -- reinforce the aftermost part of the
ventral ridge and allow it to touch the ground.  (See Jesse's illo 1 to
help visualize this.)  This makes the gear the *forward* struts.  :)

The engines are going to be fairly massive, and most of the Scout's
volume is to the aft.  Even if the Scout were of constant density, I
figure the center of mass will be *aft* of the traditional landing gear
location!  (On the plan, this is about seventy percent of the ship's
length from the nose; but unless I'm way off I figure over sixty percent 
of the ship's volume is aft of that, including the Air/Raft, turret, and
all of the engineering compartment.)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:51:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

>I'm wondering how reliable that complicated feed mechanism is going to
>be under real conditions.
>

Complicated?  If anything, it is far more simplistic in its design than an
M-16 action.


It actually has LESS moving parts than most weapons.  And I've never heard
anything about the weapon's function being the problem.  Just the ammo.  H&K
claims that it worked all of that out and that during tests, the solid
propellant was subjected to crushing, dropping a magazine from an aircraft,
etc.

Loyalty to Colt seems to be the main obstacle in adoption.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:43:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > Can you tell me (or estimate) how much wattage a hamster-type critter
> > running in one of those wheels might generate?
> 
> Is that with or without methamphetamine added to the sugar water
> bottle? :-)

Pshaw!  We at SayBOOM would never pump our subsentient coworkers full of
unsafe drugs in order to boost performance -- we'd genetically engineer
them for that.  And keep the meth for ourselves, thank you very much.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:53:10 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: The Pak Wars

j a c wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:34:33 +0000 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> writes:
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> >
> >>> Especially the  K'kree.
> >
> >A K'Kree Warfleet could eclipse the stars....
> >
> >Dom
> 
> Just make for easier targeting, just point and shoot..........
> 
I thought that was "point and smite."


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:01:52 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

>Loyalty to Colt seems to be the main obstacle in adoption.
>

I doubt  loyalty to Colt is the problem, or we would be stuck with the .45
for a sidearm.
The main reason is probably that the US wants to test designs and work out
all problems. The original M-16 when used with the original ammo was a
devastating weapon, but once the Army got ahold of it, assigned guidelines
to its performance, etc, the finished product was very faulty and the wrong
ammo had been purchased (incorrect type of powder I should say). I would
rather them test guns to death before settling on a replacement.
From what I have heard about the G-11, it is a good gun, pretty grunt proof
and the ammo can even be submerged for hours without being useless. I have
also heard that it is SO grunt proof, there are problems.  IF a round can
jam, I am not sure if there is a way to remove it in the field. I don't
think the G-11 can be field stripped.
I also shy away from the rotating chamber that the gun has/had.  The
original design had a magazine parallel to the barrel which utilized a
rotating chamber mechism.
As good as the G-11 sounds, it also sounds like something I wouldn't want.
Of course I did hear that they float!!!
tv
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

>

>--Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:04:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

>Bring 'em on Mark!!!!  Can't wait!  <Another Traveller Lightwave convert,
my
>plan is working perfectly!!!  Bwwhaahhhaaahhhhaaahhhhaaaahah!!!!>  Wait a
>second, that would be the FIRST convert :)
>
>Jesse
>
Careful, Jesse.  Raving like that is liable to make the two of you
protomartyrs for your cult here in this country.

==Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:06:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

>> We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
>> our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy
weapons
>> line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.
>
As a friend of mine used to sing, "Where there's a WHIP, there's a WAY!"

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:08:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/15/99 11:42:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
> writes:
> 
> << CL 40   Brooklyn
>          Built by New York Navy.  Laid down 12 March 1935, launched
>          30 Nov 1936, commissioned 30 Sept 1937.  Decommissioned 30 Jan 1946,
>          to Chile as O'Higgins 9 Jan 1951, stricken 22 Jan 1951.
>          Damaged by grounding 12 Aug 1975, used as stationary accomodations
>          ship, refitted 1977-1978, recommissioned.  Decomissioned 14 Jan 1992,
>          sunk 3 Nov 1992 under tow to India for scrapping. >>
> 
That's kind of spooky, since O'HIGGINS' [ex-BROOKLYN] half-sister, the
Brazilian cruiser TAMANDARE [ex-ST. LOUIS] sank in late 1980 or early
1981, while being towed to (IIRC) Taiwan for scrapping.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  In our campaign, I designed two TL13 cruiser classes, the
BROOKLYN and ST. LOUIS, on basically identical hulls.  The primary
difference between them is that the BROOKLYN class has spinal meson
guns, and the ST. LOUIS class has spinal NPAWs.  <shameless plug> You
can download both of them (including the spreadsheet) at my Web site
(see sig for URL).</shameless plug>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:10:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

>It fits right in with the whacked-out kooks ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h rugged
>individualists that the scout services have on these things...just a
>little off-kilter.


Too funny, Bruce!  

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #292
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 293



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Survey with pictures
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Re: Survey with pictures
GURPS Bars
Re:  Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller
Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports
Re:Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Survey with pictures
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
[DEBATE] A response to all so far
GSG9

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:37:25 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Kenji wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > Have you considered installing some sort of battery/capacitor, 
> > so the weasels can run their little weasel hearts out
> [...snip...]
>
> Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I 
> do think this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 
> 1.0.

I was afraid of that. Time for plan B:

*ZAP* 
"Damn, missed. Sic 'em, boys!" 
*squeeeeek!* 
*chomp* 
"AIEEEEEEEE!"

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:42:03 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

This is not a bad work around.

Mike

Steven Bonneville wrote:
> 
> 
> Front jack?  I haven't seen so many pictures of grounded Scout/Couriers,
> but I've got a third gear configuration.  There are only two gear, and
> they're farther forward as indicated on the old floorplan.  The third
> landing point is the hull itself -- reinforce the aftermost part of the
> ventral ridge and allow it to touch the ground.  (See Jesse's illo 1 to
> help visualize this.)  This makes the gear the *forward* struts.  :)
> 
> The engines are going to be fairly massive, and most of the Scout's
> volume is to the aft.  Even if the Scout were of constant density, I
> figure the center of mass will be *aft* of the traditional landing gear
> location!  (On the plan, this is about seventy percent of the ship's
> length from the nose; but unless I'm way off I figure over sixty percent
> of the ship's volume is aft of that, including the Air/Raft, turret, and
> all of the engineering compartment.)
> 
>   -- Steve Bonneville

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:50:33 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

>Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
>this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.

Perhaps if you reduced the power by about a factor of 4 (it'd still do 
3d TNE damage at short range) and doubled the number of carried weasels? 

Alternatively - though less green - you could use "sprint weasels". The 
two weasels in the generator wheels, instead of running at their sustainable
power level, are each run at about 5-10 watts through the administration of
electric shocks and/or powerful drugs. When they burn out after a minute, 
new weasels are released from a weasel storage chamber. (After all, the 
weight of the generator wheels probably exceeds the weight of the weasels.)
My mental picture the storage chamber is an underbarrel tube magazine 
(prefably transparent) like a shotgun, packed full-o-weasels; I imagine a 
sort of pump shotgun action...(kching-squeel-zap-squeel!-ZAP!)
(kching is the pump mechanism, squeel is the used weasels being ejected,
zap is the electric shock, squeel! is the new weasels getting up to speed,
ZAP! is the laser shot.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:55:08 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Muscle Power : some handy numbers

AWRIGHT, that's it!!!!! Twice in one day! I really have to aADa  (oops
SDSssorry!) havve to get a nnew keyboardd now!

MMMIKKE

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > > Can you tell me (or estimate) how much wattage a hamster-type critter
> > > running in one of those wheels might generate?
> >
> > Is that with or without methamphetamine added to the sugar water
> > bottle? :-)
> 
> Pshaw!  We at SayBOOM would never pump our subsentient coworkers full of
> unsafe drugs in order to boost performance -- we'd genetically engineer
> them for that.  And keep the meth for ourselves, thank you very much.
> 
> Kenji

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:54:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In mail you write:

> Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
> unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
> for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
> they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
> ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
> (certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).

Why not? I'm fairly sure that the Mississippi and Missouri are deep
enough that far up at least *part* of the year...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:54:27 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

CT Bar encounter.

Bartender: what will you have?

First Guy: Nothing. I died while being rolled up.

Second Guy: i can't have anything, I have my six skills already and don't
have room for "drinking-1".


Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:17:11 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
> > unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
> > for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
> > they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
> > ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
> > (certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).
> 
> Why not? I'm fairly sure that the Mississippi and Missouri are deep
> enough that far up at least *part* of the year...
> 
Yes, but, from what I've been told since moving here, IOWA would never
make it past the US 190 bridge over the Mississippi in north Baton
Rouge.  Supposedly, Gov. Huey P. Long decreed that the bridge should be
built too low to allow ocean-going vessels to pass under, in order to
ensure that no river city north of Baton Rouge could become a seaport.

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:47:42 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

In a message dated 99-03-16 11:46:18 EST, you write:

<< You were at Benning for a demo by GSG9?  With ACR
 prototypes?  I'm jealous!  Bring pictures to BayCon if you've got 'em :)
  >>
I second that!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:51:41 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse...

Why do you assume that I would comment?  I did notice the part about extending
dead a deadline.  Gee Jes, YOU needing more time past a deadline?  No way!
That's so unlike you!.  <read words with DRIPPING sarcasm>

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:51:43 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: GURPS Bars

Actually, I guess the distinctive thing about GURPS is the crossover.  There
will be no "bar table," that's not the style, but you never know if the
bartender might be a wizard, a superhero, a vampire or a Man in Black.  Or all
of them.  I'm not feeling funny enough to satire this...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:20:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/17/99 1:07:41 AM, you wrote:

<<Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
> unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
> for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
> they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
> ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
> (certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).
>>

New York City and New Jersey are fighting for the New Jersey. New York wants
to add her to the Intrepid Air and Space Museum, while New Jersey wants to
moor her at the pier (the old ferry piers near the train shed/museum) in the
Liberty State Park to make her a museum exhibit. My money is on New Jersey
getting her, though as an ex-New Yorker, I would love to see her moored next
to the Intrepid... I don't know what will happen to the Iowa or the Wisconsin,
though as the Iowa was built in New York (at either the Brooklyn Navy yard or
NY shipyards? I don't have my reference in front of me...); it's possible New
York MAY get her for the Intrepid museum (especially if the New Jersey goes to
Liberty State Park...), though I think these two will probably go to the
breakers...:-(

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:58:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3D Stellar Cartography for Traveller

In mail you write:

> For my own part, what I've toyed with (though never actually used in
> Traveller itself) is the idea of keeping the standard 8 x 10 subsector map
> and then giving each star a Z-coordinate from 1 to 8, thus making it
> 8x8x10. The Z value is just listed in the middle of the star's little
> circular symbol.  

<snip>

> If multiple stars share the same hex (i.e., are "on top" of each other),
> you have to split it up to list them, but this isn't a big problem.  I did
> this for one of my own SFRPG systems and it worked very well. 
>
> This system is much easier (IMHO) for most players and refs to visualize
> and use than many systems which either don't use any sort of grid or which
> use decimal values of X, Y and Z coordinates.  

A modified X-Y/X-Z map pair would be quite workable. A standard 8x10
hex map, with an 8x8 rectangular map joined to it at the top or bottom.
The rectangular map would have the horizontal axis representing X, just
like the hex map. So each colum on it would have the same X co-ordinate
as the colum of hexes it was "attached" to. Each row would be a
different Z co-ordinate. 1 being closest to the join, 8 being farthest
away. 

They look a bit funny, but by have two views, they are quite usable.
Doing it for a whole sector would be a nightmare. Then again, you've
got 640 "hexes" in an 8x10x8 "subsector" as opposed to 1280 in a 32x40
"sector". 

Hmmm. Split the difference. Make the subsectors only *four* high (8x10x4), and the
"sector" 2x2x2 (16x20x8). Which winds up with the same number of
"hexes", just in a more compact version. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:12:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports

In mail you write:

> Hey Rob,
>
> Where is the Beanstalk? I'dthink that there would be a lot of medium and
> high tech worlds, in particular the high-pop ones that would use some
> type of beanstalk rather than have multi-mega-ton star ships flying over
> their heads.

Beanstalks on an Earthlike world require unreasonably strong materials.
On a smaller planet, with the same day length (Mars for example) we
could almost build a beanstalk now. 

And there are *lots* of other concepts that are usuable on various
types of worlds. For instance, I'd expect to see a Loftstrom "Launch
Loop" in use on at least *some* vacuum worlds. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:34:26 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re:Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak

>
>Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:25:55 +1000
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak
snip
>
>Wow. So much for Gauss being a low-cost alternative to CPR guns.
>
>Mind you, it's a monster.
>
>That rapid-fire capability ... ewwwww. You'd hate to be caught in enfilade
>by one of these beasts poking it's turret over the hill.
>
>It would be a bit of a curiousity, becuase you can build a much better can
>opener at TL10 with big fusion guns. I dare say some of them would see
>service as artillery in TL10 and up militaries - that 100 km indirect fire
>range is pretty nice, especially if it's launching individually
>redirectable missiles.
	Why does this gun bring The Forlorn Hope to mind?  This strikes me as an
incredible weapon to keep hostile forces out of the atmosphere. Great idea.

							Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:39:12 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

SSSSSPEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
Aw CRAP!!!  Beer all over the notebook keyboard and screen!  Damn, I just
fizxedajks sdkhsi amdnddn thinsadgl;aknsdcv,,c<<<<<<<<<<zzzzzzzzzzzpop!!!!

Jesse :)


>>Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
>>this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.
>
>Perhaps if you reduced the power by about a factor of 4 (it'd still do
>3d TNE damage at short range) and doubled the number of carried weasels?
>
>Alternatively - though less green - you could use "sprint weasels". The
>two weasels in the generator wheels, instead of running at their
sustainable
>power level, are each run at about 5-10 watts through the administration of
>electric shocks and/or powerful drugs. When they burn out after a minute,
>new weasels are released from a weasel storage chamber. (After all, the
>weight of the generator wheels probably exceeds the weight of the weasels.)
>My mental picture the storage chamber is an underbarrel tube magazine
>(prefably transparent) like a shotgun, packed full-o-weasels; I imagine a
>sort of pump shotgun action...(kching-squeel-zap-squeel!-ZAP!)
>(kching is the pump mechanism, squeel is the used weasels being ejected,
>zap is the electric shock, squeel! is the new weasels getting up to speed,
>ZAP! is the laser shot.)
>
>Bruce
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:40:18 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Survey with pictures

:P  Loren offered, I didn't need it but I'm taking advantage of it!  :)
Jesse


>Jesse, Jesse, Jesse...
>
>Why do you assume that I would comment?  I did notice the part about
extending
>dead a deadline.  Gee Jes, YOU needing more time past a deadline?  No way!
>That's so unlike you!.  <read words with DRIPPING sarcasm>
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:08:12 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

At 06:17 PM 16/03/99 EST, you wrote:
>It would be realistic to increase the probability of "Japanese/Korean"
>ancestry.
>Even today, Japan has more of a space program than many people realize.
>

        Hi, Jon...  ok...  maybe put them at the "5 Chinese/ South East
Asian" and push everything down one?  I was aware they had a programme, but
didn't think they were any closer to manned space flight than the Chinese
were...

        --Michel

 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:08:11 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

At 04:47 PM 16/03/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I would increase the chance of 'mixed' parents, and furthermore allow for
>more than two ethnic backgrounds.  Judging by both my friends and my kids,
>I anticipate a lot more people having mixed ethnic backgrounds in the next
>century.

        Hi, Rob!
        I couldn't agree with you more...  hmmm...  Ok, where abouts on the
table would you suggest it...  a typical 2d bell curve looks like:

        Roll        of 10k        %
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        2             257           2.57
        3             583           5.83
        4             872           8.72
        5             1159          11.59
        6             1349          13.49
        7             1644          16.44
        8             1373          13.73
        9             1111          11.11
        10            893           8.93
        11            485           4.85
        12            274           2.74

        So, 2.5% is too low...  

>For example, one of my neighbour's has Greek, Cypriot, and Pakistani
>grandparents, her husband's grandparents are Italian -- so how would you
>classify her kids, other than Canadian (which is how the whole family
>views themselves)?

        There is most likely Mic Mac Amerindian blood in my viens somewhere
along the lines, but I am one of the *whitest* guys other than David Bowie
you are apt to meet...  So, at what point do you figure dilution?
Obviously, I want a *quick* system, but not one that routinely visits left
field....

>Thinking about it, the majority of my married friends are in 'mixed'
>marriages, and none of my girlfriends have been Caucasian (let alone
>English). I don't think I'm _that_ unusual...
>
        Let me guess... you are in Toronto, right?
        Here in Halifax, two friends of mine had a lot of grief from those
around them while they were dating...  he is black and she is white.  Grief
that including physical violence from strangers.
        They are also the only "mixed couple" that I know of...  unless you
count French/ English.  Actually, correction, another couple I know of is
WASP/ Indonesian (man, is she *cute*)....  but I think that's it...

        Thanks for your comments...

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:15:41 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

If one ignores the minimum 100 dton size of jump-capable ships, what is
the smallest jump-capable ship that can be designed under FF&Sv2?  Using
the Akins spreadsheet, I came up with a 7-ton, J2 design that can carry
2 people (using a single small stateroom).  This design has Extended
life support, food for 2 for 8 weeks, .628 dtons of cargo space, and 6G
of inertial compensation (since the smallest T-plate drive the
spreadsheet let me install pushes a 7 dton ship at 7.5G loaded, and 9.2G
empty).

Can anyone beat this?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:26:38 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

|>|Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
|>
|>That was Generic, like GURPS.  Synonymous with boring. :-p
|
|Generally speaking you get out of something what you are willing to put into
|it.  If you are unwilling to invest the time and creativity to make your
|adventures interesting they will be boring regardless of the system you are
|using.  Some of the most boring gaming I have taken part in were run by GMs
|that just blindly followed a published adventure.  Some without ever reading
|it before hand.  The adventures where good but the presentation was terible.


<sigh> I guess sarcasm is a lost art.  I'll refrain.  Apologies, all.





==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:29:26 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

|Have you considered installing some sort of battery/capacitor, 
|so the weasels can run their little weasel hearts out during 
|those tedious weeks in jumpspace, and store up enough juice to 
|actually allow this to be used in combat? I know it detracts
|from the purity of the concept, but I might order one with
|Offline Weasel Capability.

Um, wouldn't that require putting back the batteries?





==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:37:28 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

POI.LKJkdqkkkk  OK that's  qqqw  q0-9 darn! That's 3 times!!!! You
people eeqaff  people owe me a new klkkkkll  keyboard!

Mike ;)

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
> >this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.
> 
> Perhaps if you reduced the power by about a factor of 4 (it'd still do
> 3d TNE damage at short range) and doubled the number of carried weasels?
> 
> Alternatively - though less green - you could use "sprint weasels". The
> two weasels in the generator wheels, instead of running at their sustainable
> power level, are each run at about 5-10 watts through the administration of
> electric shocks and/or powerful drugs. When they burn out after a minute,
> new weasels are released from a weasel storage chamber. (After all, the
> weight of the generator wheels probably exceeds the weight of the weasels.)
> My mental picture the storage chamber is an underbarrel tube magazine
> (prefably transparent) like a shotgun, packed full-o-weasels; I imagine a
> sort of pump shotgun action...(kching-squeel-zap-squeel!-ZAP!)
> (kching is the pump mechanism, squeel is the used weasels being ejected,
> zap is the electric shock, squeel! is the new weasels getting up to speed,
> ZAP! is the laser shot.)
> 
> Bruce

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:39:37 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 

|ObTrav: Would Swordworlders in the Marches provoke flame wars on the X-Boat
|lists...?


As a card carrying member of "Lightning's Hand"
<http://www.downport.com/ct/FTAS.html> I'd be more likely to load it with
explosives than to use it to send sarcastic e-mail.


FREE THE BORDER WORLDS!!!




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:14:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

What if you powered the thing with lots of Floridian Palmetto bugs (big ass
roaches) in small wheels?

Or maybe you could attach a crank to the pelvis of a male rabbit behind a
female rabbit?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:49:02 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: [DEBATE] A response to all so far

I am just another all too young and unimportant Solomani; and yet as I
listen to my betters debate these far too important issues, I must hope
that my ideas might make a minor impression on someone...

As individual sophonts in this third imperium we are mostly ignored; and
yet, is that really such a terrible thing? We watch while the radicals 
proclaim one thing and then watch while the traditionalists proclaim the
opposite ...If there was ever a damned if you do and damned if you don't
situation, it exists today...

We individual members of this polity can  "never break the chains" and
this, ultimately,  defines our circumstance.

Che's Grandson

- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:22:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: GSG9

Rather, post them to the Net so that we can all enjoy...

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tascelt@aol.com <Tascelt@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)


>In a message dated 99-03-16 11:46:18 EST, you write:
>
><< You were at Benning for a demo by GSG9?  With ACR
> prototypes?  I'm jealous!  Bring pictures to BayCon if you've got 'em :)
>  >>
>I second that!!
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #293
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 294



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
Re: Parking Orbits 
Re: SecurityArms
Re: SecurityArms
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: Parking Orbits 
Knoellighz Sector
Re: Parking Orbits 
Re: Parking Orbits 
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3
Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: GT Sublike combat
Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports
Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:59:21 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

At 10:26 PM 16/03/99 -0500, SwordWorlder wrote:

><sigh> I guess sarcasm is a lost art.  I'll refrain.  Apologies, all.

        It wasn't lost on me...  <shrug>  No idea how *that* got
misunderstood...  Carry on as though normal... =)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:02:10 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

>If one ignores the minimum 100 dton size of jump-capable ships, what is
>the smallest jump-capable ship that can be designed under FF&Sv2?

Well, at TL 15 (and just throwing these numbers together) I came up with:

Quark Class Jump Courier
1 ton displacement
Jump 2
1.5 G Manuever Drive (8 hrs)
6 MW Power Plant
Extended Life Support
8 wks Food
1 500 Km Radio
1 Roomy Seat
2x Std Computer

Now, the poor sap...er...sophant who 'volunteers' to take this puppy into
J-space will be stuck in his Mk I Crazy-Boy Reclining pilot's chair for the
duration, but you did ask for the smallest design.


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:03:34 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits 

Is this related to how one needs to go faster to be lower? 

<VBG.

William


I believe this comes from Leonaard;

>Yes, some of the "flying" is counter-intuitive TO US. Someone who has
>been doing this sort of manuever weekly (or even daily for ground to
>orbit shuttles), it'll be old hat. 


- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:19:19 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

Sigh. I really probably shouldn't but WTF...

I spent 16 years in the US Army. Too many of thos were as the unit armor
for my (Armor) company. As far as I'm concerned Gene Stoner needs to
spend 10,000 years in purgatory for thew M16... There are few pieces of
engineering even half that bad in this world... 

(Yes he burned off several centuries for other designs; but we aren't
talking about _any_ of them here, are we?0

William

>>I'm wondering how reliable that complicated feed mechanism is going to
>>be under real conditions.
>>

>Complicated?  If anything, it is far more simplistic in its design than an
>M-16 action.


- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:46:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

>I have
>also heard that it is SO grunt proof, there are problems.

Need more clues.

> IF a round can
>jam, I am not sure if there is a way to remove it in the field. I don't
>think the G-11 can be field stripped.

H&K says it can, and more quickly and more easily with less moving parts.


>I also shy away from the rotating chamber that the gun has/had.  The
>original design had a magazine parallel to the barrel which utilized a
>rotating chamber mechism.

It still does.  You can shy away from it all you like, but it obviously
works.

>As good as the G-11 sounds, it also sounds like something I wouldn't want.
>Of course I did hear that they float!!!
>tv


They can give me one and I won't complain.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:21:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

Charles, this was a PARODY of a GURPS (Generic Unversal Role-Playing System)
Bar Encounter...

The whole encounter was SUPPOSED to be nondescript...

- --Clif


>At 03:50 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>|Are you 'imagination chalenged'?   That was BORING!
>>
>>
>>That was Generic, like GURPS.  Synonymous with boring. :-p
>>
>>
>
>Generally speaking you get out of something what you are willing to put
into
>it.  If you are unwilling to invest the time and creativity to make your
>adventures interesting they will be boring regardless of the system you are
>using.  Some of the most boring gaming I have taken part in were run by GMs
>that just blindly followed a published adventure.  Some without ever
reading
>it before hand.  The adventures where good but the presentation was
terible.
>
>Charles L.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:17:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Dude, you're a #%^@ing nutcase and you're killing me over here!  LOL!

- --Clif

P.S.:  Why do small animals always make for the funniest material?

>Did we mention that the weasels are highly absorbent and suitable for use
>as nasal spray guards?
>
>There was a slight problem with how I calculated that pesky little input
>power demand thingy, and -- to borrow Comrade Ditzie's phrase -- it needs
>a lot more weet-bix.
>
>Two weasels = 1 shot per half hour.
>
>~720 weasels = 1 shot/5 second combat round.

I THOUGHT there was something screwy, there!  Say, what does it take to
power 720 weasels?
>
>We apologize for this slight oversight.  We take it as demonstrated that
>the flaws are merely basic and fundamental, while the design is perfect in
>its details.  Orders will be accepted for wholesale and retail lots
>immediately.
>
>Kenji


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:45:41 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Oh, but isn't that what those last few charges for the 16" are left for?
"Gunner- Idiot in the open"

William

Traveller-digest wrote:
 ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:54:06 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
> > unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
> > for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
> > they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
> > ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
> > (certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).
> 
> Why not? I'm fairly sure that the Mississippi and Missouri are deep
> enough that far up at least *part* of the year...
> 
> - --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------

- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you 
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
road and may God's blessing be with you always.
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:41:38 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

Black ICE wrote:

> If one ignores the minimum 100 dton size of jump-capable ships, what is
> the smallest jump-capable ship that can be designed under FF&Sv2?  Using
> the Akins spreadsheet, I came up with a 7-ton, J2 design that can carry
> 2 people (using a single small stateroom).  This design has Extended
> life support, food for 2 for 8 weeks, .628 dtons of cargo space, and 6G
> of inertial compensation (since the smallest T-plate drive the
> spreadsheet let me install pushes a 7 dton ship at 7.5G loaded, and 9.2G
> empty).
>
> Can anyone beat this?

I think I've seen some jump pods that could fit into a turret socket.  I
myself made a 4dT jump-capable communications buoy in the same configuration
as a standard cargo module.  Both designs make some assumptions about not
actually needing somebody to sit in the pilot seat during jump.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:43:40 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

revtks wrote:

> >If one ignores the minimum 100 dton size of jump-capable ships, what is
> >the smallest jump-capable ship that can be designed under FF&Sv2?
>
> Well, at TL 15 (and just throwing these numbers together) I came up with:
>
> Quark Class Jump Courier
> 1 ton displacement
> Jump 2
> 1.5 G Manuever Drive (8 hrs)
> 6 MW Power Plant
> Extended Life Support
> 8 wks Food
> 1 500 Km Radio
> 1 Roomy Seat
> 2x Std Computer
>
> Now, the poor sap...er...sophant who 'volunteers' to take this puppy into
> J-space will be stuck in his Mk I Crazy-Boy Reclining pilot's chair for the
> duration, but you did ask for the smallest design.

At this point you should just make it into a hardened environment suit with a
jump pack.  I'd also auto-inject the guy with a fast drug with the antidote
upon reentry.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:02:44 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

In a message dated 3/16/99 10:10:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

>         Hi, Jon...  ok...  maybe put them at the "5 Chinese/ South East
>  Asian" and push everything down one?  I was aware they had a programme, but
>  didn't think they were any closer to manned space flight than the Chinese
>  were...

I suspct the Japanese are closer on all counts than are the Chinese.
Actually,
if I remember right the Japanese program is heavy on the robotic probes, but
there's a school of thought that says that in the long term this is just as
productive -- you do a lot of exploration and setting up of advance bases with
robots, then send the men later.  In theory, anyway.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:20:46 -0600
From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

<1 ton Quark Class Jump Courier snipped>

>At this point you should just make it into a hardened environment suit with
a
>jump pack.  I'd also auto-inject the guy with a fast drug with the antidote
>upon reentry.

Heh, you're prolly right.  I really don't see any role the Quark could fill,
except as a jump-capable lifeboat...of course it might be just the thing for
some genetically enhanced weasels to cruise the galaxy in.  <g>

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:05:39 PST
From: "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Subject: buying T4 material - suggestions?

I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some 
supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4 book.  
Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are good buys (T4 
material only).

My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
Milieu 0 Campaign
Starships
FFSv2
and a fourth book.

I will be buying this week, and timely advice can keep me from making a 
bad purchase.

Thanks,
Percy
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:18:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits 

>Live without fear; your Creator loves you
>as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
>road and may God's blessing be with you always.
>St. Claire
>
Since when was this part of your signature?  Did you see "Resurrection"
night before last?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:27:31 -0700
From: "Eric T.  or  Maryann C. Holmes" <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: Knoellighz Sector

Fellow TMLers:

A request for information.

I have plans for fleshing out the sector called  "Knoellighz
(Vargr)/Tazhdapl (Zhodani)."
This sector is coreward of Gvurrdon and Spinward Marches based upon maps
and information
from the following web pages:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/kagekiha/traveller/sect1120.htm

and

http://www.nova.org/~sol/core/astrogat/dir.htm

Is anyone else currently working on this sector?  I just don't want to
duplicate any efforts.

Eric

IMTU:  he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,
pi+, ta+,
	as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ 
		(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)

Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:37:59 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits 

|>Live without fear; your Creator loves you
|>as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good
|>road and may God's blessing be with you always.
|>St. Claire
|>
|Since when was this part of your signature?  Did you see "Resurrection"
|night before last?


I've seen it several times.  Who's St. Claire?




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:52:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Parking Orbits 

You got me...  I wonder if she's as suggestive as St. Theresa of Avila
was...

- --Clif

>I've seen it several times.  Who's St. Claire?
>
>
>
>
>==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
>         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>___________hosted_by____________
>              www.downport.com
>     A domain for Traveller on the Web
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:26:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote

> Hmm, what would l like to see in FF&S3?  I'd like to see everything
> reduceable to a scale of seven words, like this:
> 
> Terrible      Poor    Mediocre    Fair    Good    Great   Superb
> 
> You know, you'd have "Poor drives", but "Superb armor" and a "Great 
> plasma weapon" and everything would be pretty much made up on the spot 
> by the GM without regard to engineering, physics or anything real...

How about the following:

Terrible      Poor    Mediocre     Fair    Good    Great   Superb

Jump drive (standards for military ships) 
no Jump Drive  Jump1	Jump2	    Jump3    Jump4  Jump5   Jump6

Weapons
None	      1 turret 1 tripple   lots	   bay	  Spinal     Death
	      w/ 1      turret     of	  weapons Weapon     Star
	      small 		  turrets		     main
	      laser					     gun

Tech Level(in Milieu 1100)
stone	     pre     early       average   high	  TL16	     Grand
knives	    stellar  stellar     stellar   stellar	     father
and							     gave
bearskins						     it to
							     me

Aesthetic Value (CT ships)
Donosev	      xboat    fat        scout     happy   safari   Azhanti
		       trader     ship      fun     ship     High
                                            ball	     Lightning						   
AKA              with
    				            Broadsword       its
	                                                     weapons
							     intact
							     saving
							     your
							     PC's
							     ship

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:33:33 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

From:           	"Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Date sent:      	Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:05:39 PST

>I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some 
>supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4 book.  
>Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are good buys (T4 
>material only).

>My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:

>Milieu 0 Campaign

Excellant product, well worth it

>Starships

Do not touch with a 3.048m barge pole

>FFSv2

Good if you're a gearhead, but get the errata (its
online, but I can't remember exactly were).

>and a fourth book.

My suggestions (in order) would be:
1st - Psionic Institutes (excellant info on the psi
      institues)
2nd - Pocket Empires (good for grand multiplanet econmic
      games)
3rd - Central Supply Catalog (equipment, but the vehicle
      design system is not compatible with FFS. Also
      ignore the comments on Rule of Man or 2nd Empire
      tech level)
4th - Emperors Arsenal (weapons, but same comments
      regarding RoM tech tech level)
5th - Aliens Archive (collection of aliens, reasonably
      useful)

Do _Not_ get:
Starships (too many broken ships. The design sequence is
 useful, but its available online)
First Survey (just plain useless due to massive errors
 in the data)
Emperors Vehicles (left out the tech level on the
 vehicles making it utterly useless)


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:52:20 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
...
>Or a torch, which will let me see More of the Colours around, unless I just
>Walk away.

  You could drop this completely OT thread - have mercy.                  :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 01:49:54 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

On 03/16/99 at 10:05 PM,  "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com> said:

>I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some 
>supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4
>book.   Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are
>good buys (T4  material only).

>My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
>Milieu 0 Campaign
>Starships
>FFSv2
>and a fourth book.

I recommend that you do NOT buy Starships.

What you should buy depends on what you want to do with Traveller.
For example, if you don't intend to create detailed ships and
weapons and don't consider yourself a "gearhead" you probably don't
want FFSv2.

Based on how much utility I got from the books my suggestions, in
descending order, are:

1.  FFSv2 -- create ships, aircraft and weapons, very detailed, for
             gearheads of all ages

2.  Pocket Empires -- adds economics rules, empire building and
                      dynastic play, has some problems but is very
                      innovative

3.  Milieu 0 Campaign -- get the hardback, not the original
                         paperback..it's got more material,
                         corrections and the best parts of First
                         Survey included, an interesting milieu to
                         play in (not that I haven't complained that
                         I would have done things differently)

4.  Naval Architect's Manual -- lots and lots of deckplan pieces to
                                copy and piece together for the
                                ships you create with or without
                                FFSv2, a few weird things and
                                inconsistent scales, but could still
                                be pretty useful with a scanner and
                                a lot of cut and pasting
                                
5.  Central Supply Catalog -- lots of equipment, computer rules, and
                              a vehicle design system of moderate
                              complexity that is pretty good, but
                              mostly incompatible with FFS (and
                              every other Traveller system)
                              
6.  Emperor's Arsenal -- lot's of weapons and combat rules
                         extensions, I wanted a design system for
                         weapons in here and didn't get one, ;-< but
                         it's not too bad
                         
...I just can't recommend any of the other books.

All IMO, of course, and make sure you get the errata from whatever
web site currently is up and has it.  Dave Golden? Joe Heck? ???

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:50:13 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ocean-going Star/Spaceports

> Hey Rob,
>
> Where is the Beanstalk? I'dthink that there would be a lot of medium and
> high tech worlds, in particular the high-pop ones that would use some
> type of beanstalk rather than have multi-mega-ton star ships flying over
> their heads.

That would have to be worlds that never have been contacted by the Imperium
or any other gravtech capable culture. Building a beanstalk can NEVER be
cheaper than importing antigrav from TL 8+ worlds (IMHO and IMTU gravtech
doesn't arrive until TL 10+ and then pretty weak)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:51:35 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns

>From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
>Subject: Re: Ditzie Does Gauss Guns ... warning, rampant Ditzie-speak
>
>       I *WANT* one...

They're tech 9, Michel. Same as the Terrans in your game ...

>	Actually, that is the only complaint I have about the weapon...
>Why *aren't* the rounds laser-seeking fin-directed (a la copperhead)?  One
>infanteer could slaughter a tank battaltion with a painting laser (flight
>time for the round from 100km is ~25 secs, which is nothing). 

They could be ... oh, and Ditzie notes that the rounds are actually 144mm
rather than 120. She still had the propellent in the CPR gun cases.

This means the gun itself has to be a bit bigger, but the system is so
dominated by the power systems that this doesnt really matter.

I'll post the corrected version tonight.

> Each round
>is hitting with the equiv of between a quarter-ton and an eighth of a ton
>of TNT, so shrapnel damage will shred any APC's travelling with the tanks,
>and God (Allah -> Zeus,inclusive, you pick) help any infantry caught out
>in the open when that tank goes up.....  Waaaaaaaay up.... =)

The problem is that at TL9, the tanks will have individual point-defense
systems (at least if FS is anywhere near the contract), allowing them to
shred a lot of incoming artillery fire. 

Against TL7 or 8, sure. 

>	I am rather surprised that Ditzie didn't see this as a major use
>of the weapon...  its wasted in the direct-fire role;  unless you are
>trashing parked light-cruisers at a starport...  =)

Funnily enough, thats one of her favorite hobbies.

Seriously, it was designed as a weapon capable of rapid, semi-sustainable
fire. I was pissed off at the one-shot-per-20 seconds standard, and a gauss
gun seemed to fit the bill.

Unfortunatly, the cost and size seem to make it untenable in the planned
role of a MBT weapon.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #294
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 295



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Sublike combat
More "First In" artwork...
Re: Fusion Guns
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green
Re: Dizie Does Gauss Guns - correct version
Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense
Re: SecurityArms
Re: More "First In" artwork...
PBEM Opening
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: Dizie Does Lily?
Re: SecurityArms
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Wankel engines
Re: SayBOOM goes Green

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:19:53 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

surely this is No Time To Cry over the Flood ...


- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 17 March 1999 07:58 AM
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat


>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>...
>>Or a torch, which will let me see More of the Colours around, unless I
just
>>Walk away.
>
>  You could drop this completely OT thread - have mercy.
:)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:47:12 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: More "First In" artwork...

> From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
> Subject: More "First In" artwork...
> 
> Tonight, the final copies of the IISS emblems and patches get ftp'ed to
> SJG for inclusion in "First In".  While my contibution isn't nearly as
> slick as that of Jesse's gorgeous Lightwave-rendered spacecraft, I 
> thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
> of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
> of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
> at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.

1) "current uniforms" means current for G:T, so 1120 or something?

2) I want an IGS patch!  I've played variants of the same ex-IGS
character in a few campaigns (a 5FW vet with a little post-traumatic
stress disorder and two ex-wives to look for or maybe hide from), and I
have just the hat for it (black cotton North Face baseball cap ... or
maybe the black BDU combat cap ... hmm).  

Anyway, nice work on the IISS heraldry.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:17:18 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

>>>How do you build a tank barrel which can handle the heat and shock of a
>>>plasma bolt hot enough to melt the frontal armour of a heavy grav tank?
>>
>>You don't.
>>
>>Plasmas are contained, accelerated,  and directed using magnetic or other
>>non-materiel,  fields. The "barrel" merely acts as a support for the
>>field-generation and control equipment.
>>
>>Of course, the barrel still needs to be built tough to withstand battllefield
>>conditions.
>
>But where does the heat go? Especially with a Rapid Fire Plasma Gun...

Into the enemy tank :-)

The heat theoretically doesn't get transferred thru the magnetic "bottle"
 the one with a hole in it pointing at the enemy tank every second or so) very
much, especially if the space containing the field is evacuated so the barrel
doesn't  get too hot, except perhaps round the contact point for the vacuum
seal at the end......

Ob Templar Avoidance Disclaimer :
 I'm making this all up as I go along , of course, I've never constructed a
fusion gun before, nor even seen one in use, so feel free to object if it
doesn't make sense

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:57:48 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>

> The imperial Grand Survey Office's patch is one Square/Right Angle away from
> whipping up conspiracy theories about the control of Freemasons.  : )

No, we all know that the Templars were behind the Solomani conquest of
the Vilani.

> What's the story behind the Pony Express-Like patch with the 8 or 4 legged
> beast? (depending on how you look at it)  Where does this beast come from?

That's laid out in Book 6: Scouts, I think.  The 8-legged beast is in
fact a beast once used by couriers on Sylea, if I recall correctly.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:36 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

><< And yes, it is possible to perform flight ops from a STOVL carrier when
> a CTOL carrier can't.
> >>
>
>How? The Nimitz class CVN's are HUGE! Their freeboard is (I think 125' from
>waterline to flight deck) and size makes them VERY stable. I would think that
>a 90,000 ton platform would be more weather resistant than an Illustrious
>class CVS that is only 15,000 tons (I think ?)... Matt what's her tonnage?

I'd guess it's because you don't _need_ a stable platform to land a Harrier.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:03:00 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Assisting SayBoom in Going Green

*warning : anatomically vague Ditzie-speak follows*

>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green
>
>There was a slight problem with how I calculated that pesky little input
>power demand thingy, and -- to borrow Comrade Ditzie's phrase -- it needs
>a lot more weet-bix.
>

Weeee reckon-weckon that if youuuu put a biggie-wiggie probe-wobe into the
uuuuuuser, then then then you could take advantage of the heat
differential-wifferential between the inteeeeerior of the uuuuser an an an
the exteeeernal atmosphere.

Weeeee reckon that if you dropped the core temperature-wemperature of the
uuuuuser by threeeee degweees, then you could get the power-wower to help
out the weeeeeeasels.

We're goanna catch an Accountant-wountant an an an have them assist us with
our enquiries.

>We apologize for this slight oversight.  We take it as demonstrated that
>the flaws are merely basic and fundamental, while the design is perfect in
>its details.  Orders will be accepted for wholesale and retail lots
>immediately.

I weckon it's one of the neaaaaatest things to come out of the niiiice
Sayat ladies since .... since .... since ... the last thing they
shoooooowwwwwwed us.

Ditzie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:16:56 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Dizie Does Gauss Guns - correct version

*** warning ... if the idea of a semi-automatic 120 mm gauss gun firing
twenty 30 kilo steel darts at 4000 meters per second in thirty-six seconds
appals you, please stop reading now ***


Uncieeee ....

We've finished it. Weeeee reckon-weckon it's a pretty-weety neato caaaaan
opener, an an an the weaaaapon itself is pretty-weety small (not really
weaallly Barbie-sized PAAAAAAAAAAWWWW size, but small for tankie-wankies).
But the battery-wattery an an an the accumulator-wumulator bankie is
preeeety big.

But but but accuuuumulators an batterwies are cheap, an an an the Total
Cost of Oooooowwwwnership should be pretty deeeecent.

An an an some of our customer-wustomers are worried about that.

The gun itself is one-forty fiiive miiiiilimeters an an an it masses four
point
twooooo tons an an an costs two hunnerd eleeeeeven kilo-wilo cwedits. The
raaaapid blammie-blammie blam blam action maaaases one point fiiiiive tons,
an an an costs about fiiiiiifteeen kilocwedits.

The auuuutoloader maaaases nine hunnerd kiiiilos, an an an costs nine
kilocwedits.

The theeeeoretical wate of fire is fifty roundie-woundie-woundies per
minute (although they're actually more like riiiilllly rillly biiiiig
neeeeeeedles).

Power-wower demand (an an an I wanna make sure I have this right) 

muzzle energy = (warhead mass in kg/2000000) X (muzzle velocity in
m/sec)^2

The waaaarhead masses 30 kiiilos, an an an the muzzle velocity is 4000 m/s,
so the energy-wenergy demand is 30/2000000* (4000)^2 =
30/2000000*16000000=30*8=240 megajoules.

Now, techie-wechie 9 maaassss driver-wivers have efficiency of of of 3.6,
so the actual-wactual amount of energy-wenergy neeeded is eight hunnerd an
sixty four megajoules.

Thats thats thats eiiighty-six point four cuuuubic meters of accuuumulators
at techie-wechie niiine, which should massie-wassie 172.8 tons, an an an
cost eight hunnerd an sixty-four kilocwedits.

Incideeeentally, two hunnerd an forty megajoules of output-woutput is
enough for a penetration factor of three hunnerd an twelve, which should be
enoughie-wuffie to go thruuuuuuu most light crwuiser-bwusers.

The shellsie-wellsies should go for one hunnerd an five kilometer-wometers
an indiwect fiiiiire, an an an should go for one thousand meeeeters or so
before they start to run out of weeeeeeet-bix ... but they hurtie-wurtie
sooooo much that that that it shouldnt matter.

Miiiichael tells me I hafta-wafta do this riiiight, so so so damage at
meeeeedium range is two hunnerd an eighty, an at long it's call it two
hunnerd an sixty-five, an an an at extweme wange it's call it a hunnerd an
sixty.

The imaging raaaaadar an an an the balliiiiistic computer-wuter an an an
the full stabaaaaaalization cost another one hunnerd an twenny fiiive
kilocwedits an an an mass another two hunnerd an eight kiiiilos.

A set of indiwect fire sites costs another one hunnerd kilocwedits an an an
masses two hunnerd kiiiilos.

Eaaach shottie-wottie will take 864 megajoules, an an an 86.4 cuuubic
meter-weters of battery-watteries will be able to pwovide this for
thiiirty-six seconds, which shouldie-wouldie allow at least twenny shots in
that time. The battery-wattery pack will will will will mass 172.8 tons an
an an cost seven hunnerd kilocwedits.

The total weapon maaaases three hunnerd and fifty fouuur point seeevennnn
tons, an an an it costie-wosties twoooo million an twenny four
kilocwedits.

Plus ammunition, which costie-wosties forty-fiiive cwedits a neeeedle for
neeeedels. You could also-walso build laaaaaser-guided rounds an an an
cluster round an an an stuff.

Now, it is pweeeety heavy, but weeeeee reckon that contwa-gwavity should be
able to liftie-wiftie it.

Your loving cousin,

Ditzie

****************************************************************************


Wow. So much for Gauss being a low-cost alternative to CPR guns.

Mind you, it's a monster.

That rapid-fire capability ... ewwwww. You'd hate to be caught in enfilade
by one of these beasts poking it's turret over the hill.

It would be a bit of a curiousity, becuase you can build a much better can
opener at TL10 with big fusion guns. I dare say some of them would see
service as artillery in TL10 and up militaries - that 100 km indirect fire
range is pretty nice, especially if it's launching individually
redirectable missiles.

It also has applications in starport defense, being able to overwhelm many
vessels' point defense with a huge wave of very hard-hitting shells.

Dont even think about what it could do to an army without point-defense.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:17:30 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ditzie Does CPR main guns, and thoughts about Point Defense

OK. Ditzie is confused and upset.

We've got the Famile Spofulam TL9 150 mm gun built, and she's reasonably
happy with it.

However, what is getting her really pissed off is the FS 120 mm Rapid Fire
Mass Driver, specifically the fact that the 120 mm HEAP warhead appears to
have a pentration value of about 500.

Can someone please calculate the DV of a 120 mm and a 150 mm HEAP round at
TL9 ?

OK. The FS 150 mm HVAP Smoothbore Gun. 

Consisting of a 9m long barrel, an autloader for the 50kg SEFOP
electro-thermal shells, an imaging radar for fire control and full
stabilisation, the FS 150mm is able to throw a shell every 70 seconds for a
power demand of 50 kilowatts.

The shells have a short range of 690 meters, for a DV of 202. The
penetration drops off with range, to 187 at Medium, 159 at Long and 103 at
Extreme range (I guess Medium is 1.4km, Long 2.8km and Extreme 5.6 km).

6.3 tons in mass all up and costing KCr 878, a loadout of 20 shells will
result in a total unit of 7.3t and KCr 898.

Note the weapon can be constructed at any TL9 world, so the cost in
Imperial Credits should be substantially lower.

It looks like a decent gun, but I think we need to do some thinking about
point defense - specifically, firing at incoming rounds.


****************************************************************************
******

The first effective point defense systems come in at TL7/8 for defense
against slow missiles. Too big for ground vehicles, they see service on wet
navy vessels.

At about TL9, point defense systems on ground vehicles usher in the end of
the Missile Era, although experiments are conducted with small fusion guns
mounted on drone grav missiles.

At TL10, point defense systems become effective enough to enable
counterfire against solid projectiles.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:28:07 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

Clif wrote:

> Hey Annti, ever read the Bond book "IceBreaker"?

	Err... no. Never heard of it.

> Man, you fired both the G11K2 AND the P90?

	Yes. And several others, ranging form Lignose Einhnader to 20 mm 
	Lahti anti-tank rifle. (This may sound much more exotic than it 
	is in real life.)

> What do you do for a living?

	I am a researcher in biomedical engineering. I am currently 
	involved in brain research, but my previous projects have dealt 
	with high-velocity projectile's effect on living tissue.

	However, my father used to be the manager of Valmet Tourula 
	(which manufactured military weapons), and now after his 
	retirement he is still involved in weapon development projects 
	with Sako. I have been working with him.

> Do I need a degree?

	Depending on where you live. I noticed that after getting a 
	degree in engineering the authorities began to take me more 
	seriously, and it is now much more easier to get official 
	permission to do Wierd Stuff.

	In Finland there is a way for non-military personnel to get 
	hands-on experience of various military-grade weapons. A student 
	club in LUT arranges a shooting day every spring, where the 
	participants may test-fire the available weapons as long as they 
	pay for the ammunition.

	http://ltky.lut.fi/org/teekkariupseerit/ampukuva.html

      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:28:27 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

>> Tonight, the final copies of the IISS emblems and patches get ftp'ed to
>> SJG for inclusion in "First In".  While my contibution isn't nearly as
>> slick as that of Jesse's gorgeous Lightwave-rendered spacecraft, I
>> thought that perhaps you folks might be interested in seeing what kind
>> of designs grace the current uniforms of the various branches and offices
>> of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service.  The emblems are viewable
>> at the URL: http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/IISS_patches.

Good stuff,.  Mark

>2) I want an IGS patch!  I've played variants of the same ex-IGS
>character in a few campaigns (a 5FW vet with a little post-traumatic
>stress disorder and two ex-wives to look for or maybe hide from), and I
>have just the hat for it (black cotton North Face baseball cap ... or
>maybe the black BDU combat cap ... hmm).

Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how much
they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.

I'm gonna shove velcro on the back, so that I can wear my old flight jacket,
place the branch patch where my squadron patch used to go, and the office
patch where the aerobatic team patch goes, and wear my normal name patch.  I
wonder how long it will take people to notice the badges are different and the
text is in Bilandin ?

Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly common on
a flight line, but that would be another place to put one. Now, all we need is
the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches Exploration Branch Grav-Ball team
or some other T-Shirt design suitable for a scout

( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one with
the words "Shit Happens" in large friendly letters seem appropriate ? )

And what brand of flight boots does an Imperial Scout wear ?
Do they have Nomex flight suits in the IISS ?

I already have the unkempt beard, the Pilot sunglasses, the jeans, and the
insanity .
 :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:27:01 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: PBEM Opening

	I have two openings in my TNEC PBEM game..  rate of play is one
cycle every 7-10 days.  Visit my website
("http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller") and select the TNEC Info
button.  Game title is "Saviours' Race".
	If you are interested in either of the the two "available" status
characters, please e-mail me privately at "misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca".

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:25:52 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 15:56 16/03/1999 -0500, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
wrote:
>Hmm, what would l like to see in FF&S3?  I'd like to see everything
>reduceable to a scale of seven words, like this:
>
>Terrible	Poor	Mediocre	Fair	Good	Great	Superb
>
>You know, you'd have "Poor drives", but "Superb armor" and a "Great plasma
>weapon" and everything would be pretty much made up on the spot by the GM
>without regard to engineering, physics or anything real...
>
>You could call it Fudge, Fusion & Steel :-)
>
>Hee hee, I had you going until that last line, didn't I? (Sounds of
>Charles scurrying madly behind cover to avoid gearhead attacks by 573.446
>Megawatt lasers with their 21.223 m^3 volume and a 44.667 ton weight...)

I'm not surprised - I had to jack the TL to 16 before I could get the
accumulator volume low enough.

Proudly presenting the 3dp laser turret, aka "The Charles Collin Zapper"

Base TL              16	
Focal Array Mount    Turret
Focal Array Diameter 2.297	 
Focal Array Length   0.573446	 
Focal Array Type     X-Ray
Discharge Energy     573.446	 
Effective Range      229,700	
Targeting Range      Short (30,000km)
Focusing Type        Non-grav focused
Crewstation present  No
MFD Present          No
Number of lasers     1	
Rate of fire         200	
Point Defence ROF    0	
Weapon Armor         44.32	
		
Weapon Performance           USP               CUSP
Intensity, Very Short Range                  573.45
Intensity, Short Range       573.45            0.00
Intensity, Medium Range      573.45            0.00
Intensity, Long Range        573.45            0.00
Intensity, Extreme Range     525.28            0.00
USP                          (+0) 1/4-4-4-4    (+2) 15:9     PDR:+2
		
Weapon Components          Volume    Mass
Focal Array                 2.376    2.376
Beam Pointer                0.500    0.500
Accumulator                18.109   36.218
Point Defence Batteries     0.000    0.000
Crewstation                 0.000    0.000
MFD                         0.000    0.000
Armor                       0.238    3.573
Totals                     21.223   42.667

Trading off focal array diameter for weapon armour was a pain too. ;-)

All praise to Andrew Akins - patron saint of T4 gearheads.

Phil Kitching


- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:17:10 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

At 22:05 16/03/1999 PST, "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some 
>supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4 book.  
>Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are good buys (T4 
>material only).
>
>My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
>Milieu 0 Campaign

A good start

>Starships

Do not buy this.

Go on to the net and head for 

	http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/index.htm

The website of St Akins. :-)

From there you can get a spreadsheet to make FFS2 so much easier to use.
Also there are links to the Gearhead webring and deckplans webring.

The deckplans on the net have a good chance of having the right volume
for the equipment and not putting 400std in a 200std ship or the
ship's captain in a shoebox and other such "artistic features"

>FFSv2

must have erata from the net.

>and a fourth book.

To go forth and meet creatures, Aliens Archive.

For equipment, consider either Central Supply Catalog
or Emperor's Arsenal. It depends if your group needs more variety
in "stuff" or just weapons.

For the only decent adventure - The Long Way Home + Gateway.

For plot stuff, just buy all the 101 books from BITS

	http://www.bits.org.uk/

I would stronly recommend looking around the web.

There is apparently a very good links website with ratings
and descriptions and stuff.

Unfortunately I don't have it bookmarked. :-(

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:57:18 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Hmmm, weasel powered weapons.   You folk are sick.  I like that in a
group.

8^)

JimC

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:39:12 -0800 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
writes:
>SSSSSPEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
>Aw CRAP!!!  Beer all over the notebook keyboard and screen!  Damn, I 
>just
>fizxedajks sdkhsi amdnddn 
>thinsadgl;aknsdcv,,c<<<<<<<<<<zzzzzzzzzzzpop!!!!
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:43:39 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

>That's laid out in Book 6: Scouts, I think.  The 8-legged beast is in
>fact a beast once used by couriers on Sylea, if I recall correctly.
>
>--Glenn

Nope, these beasts were called a poni and the (Solomani?) guy that was to
name the X-Boat network had heard of some kind of relay riding scheme were
the riding beasts bore a similar name. Language confusion.
They might be from Sylea but it was their names not their use that got them
famous.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:46:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Dizie Does Lily?

Why does Ditzie sound like Lily Tomlin at the switchboard?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:50:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

> However, my father used to be the manager of Valmet Tourula
> (which manufactured military weapons), and now after his
> retirement he is still involved in weapon development projects
> with Sako. I have been working with him.

I remember the Valmet.  It made a good appearance in some movie about two
survivalists back in the 80's.  I forgot the name of it.

Oh!  The James Bond book "IceBreaker" is set in Finland quite a bit.  It is
written by John Gardner.
>

> In Finland there is a way for non-military personnel to get
> hands-on experience of various military-grade weapons. A student
> club in LUT arranges a shooting day every spring, where the
> participants may test-fire the available weapons as long as they
> pay for the ammunition.
>
> http://ltky.lut.fi/org/teekkariupseerit/ampukuva.html
>
I TOLD you guys that America just isn't the place to live, anymore!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:57:56 -0500
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Could you make me a copy of the whip Laser without the weasels? I would
like the Fly wheel powered by my arm and Leg movements. This way I could
recharge in combat by Flapping my arms and moving in circles. Quacking
optional.
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:57:42 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Wankel engines

>The new (a couple of years old) class of Swedish submarine uses the
>Wankel engine. IIRC a Swedish company built the engine but I can't
>remember which one. It was supposed to be _really silent_ compered with
>a Diesel as the Wankel design doesn't vibrate much. So the Wankel is
>alive (almost).

Wasn't that a Stirling engine fed with fuel and liquid Oxygen?


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:02:02 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net> writes:
>Have you considered installing some sort of battery/capacitor, 
>so the weasels can run their little weasel hearts out during 
>those tedious weeks in jumpspace, and store up enough juice to 
>actually allow this to be used in combat? I know it detracts
>from the purity of the concept, but I might order one with
>Offline Weasel Capability.

I think you can order the Offline Weasel Power Pack as an option.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #295
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 296



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 
Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel.
On the Godsend of all Traveller Link Sites...
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
On IISS Patches...
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
Re: PBEM Opening
Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)
Re: GSG9 and the FAMAS?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:16:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Not a problem.  I send waste time thinking up such things.  I can also run
>most situations off the cuff with little slow down in the game.  I've been
>playing RPG and GMing for almost 20 years.  I've got lots of material I
>can
>reuse.  The dwarf becomes a Feringi, the ogre a Wookie, the jewels a data
>disk...  You just need a little imagination.  A few 'prepared' stock gaffs
>and muguffins help also.

As an older Old Traveller Fart than Charles, I feel qualified to comment
on this :-)

The following is my opinion only, and subject to change without notice.

Most good refs can manage a few off-the-cuff situations, but the best refs
I've seen have combined good improv skills with _lots_ of preparation for
the routine stuff. This has several advantages:

i) Saves improv for when the players deviate from the prepared path.

ii) Helps ensure consistency, and helps the ref remember everything
(important when running a ten-year, once-a-month campaign with players
more intelligent than oneself).

iii) Helps ensure truly creative encounters--my players, at least, are
good at spotting filed-off serial numbers :-)


Different referees have different styles, but I prefer to have as much as
possible prepared ahead of time. I use computers to do the bulk
generation, leaving me free to concentrate on plot, character, and
atmosphere. As I never throw anything away, I also have almost two cubic
metres of Traveller material to draw on, as well.

That said, my best games have been ones where the players deviated from
the 'script' almost immediately. I was improvising like hades, but because
I had a large stock of preprepared locations and NPCs I was free to
concentrate on adding to the fun, rather than remembering what colour the
bartender's hair was (my NPC descriptions include physical details). The
players didn't notice that they were venturing into 'unexplored
territory', and even found 'clues' in some chance remarks. (Which I worked
into the plot post-facto, because their reasoning made sense.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:59:15 -0500
From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
Subject: Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:20:12 EST
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re:  Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
>
>In a message dated 3/17/99 1:07:41 AM, you wrote:
>
><<Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
>> unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
>> for political reasons, not practical ones.  I think this may be because, if
>> they are donated for museum use, the Navy will then be "allowed" to tow the
>> ship to its final destination (New Jersey->New Jersey, Iowa to ???
>> (certainly not Iowa - unless contragrav is invented)).
>>>
>
>New York City and New Jersey are fighting for the New Jersey. New York wants
>to add her to the Intrepid Air and Space Museum, while New Jersey wants to
>moor her at the pier (the old ferry piers near the train shed/museum) in the
>Liberty State Park to make her a museum exhibit. My money is on New Jersey
>getting her, though as an ex-New Yorker, I would love to see her moored next
>to the Intrepid... 

I can understand your loyalty to the big apple, but let's all hope that the
Intrepid doesn't get her.  Unless something has changed recently, the
behaviour of the Intrepid's management is shameful.  In the early 90's
Intrepid started to host various sorts of corporate parties and events.
They found that acting as a disco is much more profitable than being a
museum.  But all those airplanes got in the way of dancing. So they've got
rid of them.  Intrepid used to have a very fine collection of aircraft, but
no more.  his has irritated lots of people and many of the other contributed
displays (small artifacts, scale models, etc.) on Intrepid have been removed
by the respective owners. And lest civilian accountant-bean counter types be
blamed for this sacrilege, the person in charge of Intrepid at this time
(and the chief culprit) was a retired marine general.  I remember reading
newpaper article at the time (a few years ago) where the general brushed
aside criticism of an Air and Space Museum dismantling its aircraft
collection by remarking that Intrepid is a private organization and must
watch it's bottom line.  

Now this information is a few years old, an Intrepid's management and
behaviour may have changed, but I've not heard any news to that effect.  

So let's all hope that NJ goes to Jersey City.  Somehow, the New Jersey
being preserved as a museum in New Jersey seems appropriate.  And from NYC,
you would still be able to see her (in fact, she may hide some of Jersey
City!), and the Statue of Liberty/Ellis Island Ferries will be able to take
you there from the Battery.   

Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium after
the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I imagine
that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as museums?
And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
permamently moored at a major High Port?  

- ---------------
Joe Coles
coles@evtc.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:25:16 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> writes:
>Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
>this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.

But with an Offline Weasel Power Pack, you could have a WHIP-OWPP!   :-)

Surely SayBOOM can't resist _that_ acronym...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:27:16 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel.

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:02:10 -0600
> From: "revtks" <revtks@apex2000.net>
> Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?
>
> >If one ignores the minimum 100 dton size of jump-capable ships, what is
> >the smallest jump-capable ship that can be designed under FF&Sv2?
>
> Well, at TL 15 (and just throwing these numbers together) I came up with:
>
> Quark Class Jump Courier
> 1 ton displacement
> Jump 2
> 1.5 G Manuever Drive (8 hrs)
> 6 MW Power Plant
> Extended Life Support
> 8 wks Food
> 1 500 Km Radio
> 1 Roomy Seat
> 2x Std Computer
>
> Now, the poor sap...er...sophant who 'volunteers' to take this puppy into
> J-space will be stuck in his Mk I Crazy-Boy Reclining pilot's chair for the
> duration, but you did ask for the smallest design.

IIRC.  The Nemisis?-Class cruiser or destroyer or something from CT possessed
Jump-Torpedo's.  Personally I think that a lot of the "rules" for starship creation
are just plain silly.

Why only one turret per 100 tons?  Imperial Law perhaps, but if you can cram 3
turrets into a 100 ton design why not, you're obviously not designing a cargo ship
or civillian transport, it's a purely military vessel.  As long as you take the
additional mass into account in your thrust to weight ratio, go nuts.

Why can ships over 100 ton's possess a Jump Drive.  Again rediculous but probably
tied to Imperial Law.  Smaller vessels are harder to see so if 10 10ton jump
capable fighters precipitated in your system they'd be harder to find than a single
100 dt ship.  But seeing as the minimum volume for a JD is way under the minimum
volume required for a 100dt ship it must be possible.

Perhaps the "Smoking Man" is involved in this conpsiracy to hide the truth from
loyal Travellers.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:31:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: On the Godsend of all Traveller Link Sites...

> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
> I would stronly recommend looking around the web.
> 
> There is apparently a very good links website with ratings
> and descriptions and stuff.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have it bookmarked. :-(

It's Hyphen's Jump Points, from his excellent website:

http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/

His site is a wonderful resource for any Traveller fan, referee or 
player.  I give it Five Sunbursts, or a Jump-6 rating, if he goes to 
Jump ratings as he's mentioned in the past.

Hope this helps.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:44:34 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

At 06:50 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The generic bar bit was what we on this planet call "a joke."
>Hmmm..instead of naming the bartender "Guy", call him "Joe"
>as in "Joe Generio".
>

I realise that now.  Dead pan humor and sarcasim does not come across email
very well.

'The bar'/inn has been a fixture of all to many games I've played in.
Everyone uses it in pick up games or to fast start a new group.  I've always
done my best in campains to make 'the bar' an interesting place.  Sometimes
a very scary place.  If it is to be the 'gangs' hangout it should have some
personality.  If it is just an inn on the road to somewhere more interesting
then I just say, 'You find lodging for the night.  The night passes without
incident and you continue your journey at dawn.'

The discription I gave was intended to be part of a climactic scene, not an
everyday occurence. The main character in that scene was leaving the game
(due to real life intruding) and deserved a proper send off.  He rejoined
the group a few months later with a difference character.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:44:45 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

At 07:06 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> We are pleased to offer to the Imperial public
>>> our first adaptation of this new technology to the personal energy
>weapons
>>> line, with the Weasel-Human Interface Pistol, or WHIP.
>>
>As a friend of mine used to sing, "Where there's a WHIP, there's a WAY!"
>

A good song from a so-so movie.  I heard that they are going to make a new
bigger budget version of the Lord of the Rings.  Anybody got any info as to
the status of the project?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:44:56 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

At 07:21 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles, this was a PARODY of a GURPS (Generic Unversal Role-Playing System)
>Bar Encounter...
>
>The whole encounter was SUPPOSED to be nondescript...
>
>--Clif
>
>

Yes, the auther pointed out that it was suppose to be parody.  Parody and
sarcassim do not come accross well on email.  The y depend on exageration
and/or tone of voice to 'que' the lissener in most cases.  These ques do not
come accross well in email.

To me, the first time I read it and now that I reread it, the post seems to
be a serious attempt to say the GURPS lacked originality.  My responce was a
serious one intent to show that originallity cames from the GM and his
efforts to entertain and chalenge the players not from a game system.
Perhaps I am being unusually dense today or it could be because I have
played under GMs that treat NPC like they were discribed in this parody.  I
never liked GMs that blow off detail and personality in favor of hack and
slash style gaming and I have seen it all to often for my taste.

How many GMs have you played under that made you fell like you knew the NPC
in the same way that you know the people you deal with in the real world?
Almost any GM can run combat.  It take a special person to make a world come
alive.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:43:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: On IISS Patches...

Frank Pitt wrote:
> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how much
> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.

When you find out, I would be interested in getting a few myself.  :) 
 (Probably three, depending on cost.)

> Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly common on
> a flight line, but that would be another place to put one. Now, all we need is
> the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches Exploration Branch Grav-Ball team
> or some other T-Shirt design suitable for a scout

Or maybe "Property of Rhylanor Jump Institute Athletic Department" in
white letters on a blue T-shirt.

Or even "I made First Contact at (insert world/subsector here) and 
all I got was this lousy T-shirt"  :)

> ( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one with
> the words "Shit Happens" in large friendly letters seem appropriate ? )

Sounds cool.  You might also consider something from the "Laser 
Dancer" nugget posted a few months back.  A concert T-shirt from a 
futuristic group or entertainment style would be cool, but probably 
too expensive.

> And what brand of flight boots does an Imperial Scout wear ?
> Do they have Nomex flight suits in the IISS ?

Remember the tailored IISS vacc suit/uniforms from GS/GC and MT.  
Should be pretty easy to duplicate the appearance.

> I already have the unkempt beard, the Pilot sunglasses, the jeans, and the
> insanity .
>  :-)

Now, that conjures a better image for an Exploration Scout.  Cool!  
Throw in either long hair or a flattop hair style, and you've got it!

Keep On Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:51:25 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>>I would increase the chance of 'mixed' parents, and furthermore allow for
>>more than two ethnic backgrounds.  Judging by both my friends and my
>kids,
>>I anticipate a lot more people having mixed ethnic backgrounds in the
>next
>>century.
>
>        Hi, Rob!
>        I couldn't agree with you more...  hmmm...  Ok, where abouts on
>the
>table would you suggest it...  a typical 2d bell curve looks like:

[table snipped]

How about a separate table or dice-roll, that tells you how many times to
roll on the ethnic table?  If all your rolls happen to hit the same
ethnicity, then you're one of those boring monocultural people who only
get to celebrate one set of holidays a year :-)

Seriously, that depends on whether your future history has nationalities
being preserved or not. _My_ Traveller universe doesn't, but that reflects
my personal experiences (and bias).
>
>
>>For example, one of my neighbour's has Greek, Cypriot, and Pakistani
>>grandparents, her husband's grandparents are Italian -- so how would you
>>classify her kids, other than Canadian (which is how the whole family
>>views themselves)?
>
>        There is most likely Mic Mac Amerindian blood in my viens
>somewhere
>along the lines, but I am one of the *whitest* guys other than David Bowie
>you are apt to meet...  So, at what point do you figure dilution?
>Obviously, I want a *quick* system, but not one that routinely visits left
>field....

I would concentrate on the cultural aspects, and ignore things like skin
pigmentation. My friend Eddie (Korean) is darker than my colleague Jackie
(black), while his sister Jennie is paler than me...
>
>
>>Thinking about it, the majority of my married friends are in 'mixed'
>>marriages, and none of my girlfriends have been Caucasian (let alone
>>English). I don't think I'm _that_ unusual...
>>
>        Let me guess... you are in Toronto, right?

Yup.

>
>        Here in Halifax, two friends of mine had a lot of grief from those
>around them while they were dating...  he is black and she is white. 
>Grief
>that including physical violence from strangers.

This _is_ something I think about every time I consider moving outside
Toronto. Vancouver seems fairly reasonable, and there's always Trinidad...
(Judging by my friends and their relatives here, Trinidadians seem like
singularly tolerant people--and the women are all drop-dead gorgeous! Not
a representative sample, I'll admit.)

Among the many things I have to thank my grandparents for is the way they
raised my parents _without_ the casual racism that was common in Britain.
Life alone among the anglos would be so frigging _boring_!

>
>        They are also the only "mixed couple" that I know of...  unless
>you
>count French/ English.  Actually, correction, another couple I know of is
>WASP/ Indonesian (man, is she *cute*)....  but I think that's it...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:56:18 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

And as an added incentive, you could add a side canister Assistor on either
side of the pack with a small window to female weasel in heat, hence the
saying, "Time to open up a coupla cans o' WHIP-ASS!"

- --Clif


>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> writes:
>>Despite the charm of the phrase "Offline Weasel Capability", I do think
>>this radically taints the sublime purity of the WHIP 1.0.
>
>But with an Offline Weasel Power Pack, you could have a WHIP-OWPP!   :-)
>
>Surely SayBOOM can't resist _that_ acronym...
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:09:41 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Joseph Coles wrote:

> Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium after
> the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I imagine
> that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
> entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as museums?
> And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
> permamently moored at a major High Port?

Yep. I don't subscribe to the view that everything in the OTU is on a
planet...IMTU, probably as many people live in orbital or LaGrange habs
as do on the ground...after all the main world is this toxic, cold,
nearly airless and waterless dumpsite of a world with just some mines to
recommend it...where are YOU gonna live? Down _there_ or up in the nice
clean, warm, well conditioned air of the orbital cities? (and this
doesn't _count_ the belts...look at Glisten...)

The OTU has had over 6000 years of experience with space travel...I
would _think_ they've gotten the hard bits figured out about keeping
cities alive in orbit.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:07:07 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

Derek Stanley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC.  The Nemisis?-Class cruiser or destroyer or something from CT possessed
Jump-Torpedo's.  Personally I think that a lot of the "rules" for starship creation
are just plain silly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
That was Leviathan, from the CT aventure of the same name. Leviathan
was a civilian merchant cruiser designed for exploratory trade missions
beyond the frontier. Jump Torpedoes are only mentioned in this one CT
source, and have severe effects on the rest of CT Canon if they are used.
Communication is no longer when the next ship shows up - you can
simply have a orbital base popping off jump torpedoes. Every important 
starship would have one (or more), set to automatically launch - no more
lost treasure ships or vanished task forces.

Derek again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Why only one turret per 100 tons?  Imperial Law perhaps, but if you can cram 3
turrets into a 100 ton design why not, you're obviously not designing a cargo ship
or civillian transport, it's a purely military vessel.  As long as you take the
additional mass into account in your thrust to weight ratio, go nuts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Something of a handwave here - perhaps a combination of standardized
designs, isolating turrets from each other, safety, surface area
requirements (for sensors, radiators, etc.). You cram your three turrets
into your 100tn ship, maybe you have more lasers than your radiators
can handle the waste heat from - and when one gets damaged, it takes
out the others with an overload.

Derek again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why can ships over 100 ton's possess a Jump Drive.  Again rediculous but probably
tied to Imperial Law.  Smaller vessels are harder to see so if 10 10ton jump
capable fighters precipitated in your system they'd be harder to find than a single
100 dt ship.  But seeing as the minimum volume for a JD is way under the minimum
volume required for a 100dt ship it must be possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Physics of jumspace, probably. It takes a volume of 100 dtns to be able to
affect jumpspace, just like it takes 100diameters away from a planet to
jump safely. Less than 100dtns, referee's call - does jumpspace not make
a big enough hole to be stable, causing no jump or catastrophic misjump?

Derek again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Perhaps the "Smoking Man" is involved in this conpsiracy to hide the truth from
loyal Travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In space, no one can smell your smoke.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:10:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM Opening

Really exceptional looking presentation of your PBEM, Michel!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:45:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)

At 09:27 AM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Beanstalks may not be 100% safe, either. 
>A White Dwarf magazine had a scenario called "Tower Trouble" in it, based
>around the beanstalk on Terra. One possible (though unlikely) outcome
>of the scenario had the beanstalk being cut, with the devastation of a major
>urban area following as miles of superdense cable fell on it from near-orbit.

Make that devastation of the equator of the planet.  That beanstalk is
*tall*, and it's going to wrap itself around the planet at least once.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:54:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GSG9 and the FAMAS?

At 05:57 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Then what was it I saw fired by GSG9 during a demo at Ft. Benning?  It
>>looked exactly like a G-11, but was obviously loaded in a conventional (for
>>a bullpup) manner.
>
>Was that the FAMAS?

Nope, this was definantly a caseless round, we got to examine them.

>Wow, that must have been a treat!  That makes you the only person I've met
>who has seen them with their own eyes.

Being at Benning you get all sorts of interesting visitors.



- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:00:44
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 11:58 AM 3/16/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Personally I'd just take full FFS3 and a computer program (or several).

Seeing as TSR just released the AD&D CD-ROM, ver. 2.0, I think this is a
good time to say that I'd love to see FFS3 come with a CD-ROM with
spreadshhets for the various design sequences.

Hell, I'd love to see a Traveller CD-ROM that contained .pdfs of the rules,
had Referee-aid software, and all the spreadsheets.  You could put in
pregenerated forms like those found in Supplement 12.. all sorts of stuff.

And the nice thing is that most of us on the list would contribute work
just to make Traveller better.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:05:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

At 03:56 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Hee hee, I had you going until that last line, didn't I? (Sounds of
>Charles scurrying madly behind cover to avoid gearhead attacks by 573.446
>Megawatt lasers with their 21.223 m^3 volume and a 44.667 ton weight...)

Are you mad!?  A TL-15 laser with that output has a volume of 113.76m^3,
and masses 207.314 tons...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:14:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

>(kching-squeel-zap-squeel!-ZAP!)

Ghu-dammint!  I was laughing so hard, Kirsten assumed I was seizing and
called my doctor!  it took a full minute for me to get enough control to
point to the screen, and now she's on the floor.

Put Slow Drug in the weasel water supply.

Kenji, send me a cleaned up version of this with the errata included and
I'll put it on the Silly Era ASAP.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:44:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Ship?

At 09:15 PM 3/16/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Can anyone beat this?

Statistics
Tons: 3std (SL Needle Hypersonic)
Crew: 1/1
Cargo: 0std
Volume: 42m3
Cost: 0.99 MCr
Mass (L/C): 16t/16t
Maintenance Points: 0
Dimensions: 25.2m x 2.5m x 2.5m	
Tech Level: 15
Size: 6

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 3xComp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5). No bridge.
Communications: 1xRadio (5,000km, 0MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR:-1 (-1 at 2MW, -1.5 at 0MW), Act:0, Neu:-1, Grav:-2

Performance
2	Jump (0std/pc fuel)
0/0	Maneuver
1.3/1.3	Contra-grav (0MW)
501kph/514kph	Atmosphere (/Crus:376kph/386kph)
1	Power (/Fus:2.2MW,1yr )
0.6	Fuel
1/0/0/0/0	Accomodations
2	Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
1	G-Comp
10 [29]	Armor, 0 Structure
				
Features
1xAirlock
1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:1)

Pilot gets a bunk and a small galley/recreation area.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:20:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

At 08:29 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
>If it had a conventional magazine behind the pistol grip, it mighta' been
>the Steyr ACR prototype.  You were at Benning for a demo by GSG9?  With ACR
>prototypes?  I'm jealous!  Bring pictures to BayCon if you've got 'em :)

Pictures.  Right.  We got a lecture on what we could not do.  No pictures.
No sketches.  We were searched before being allowed into the demo area.
GSG9 is as paranoid as SEAL Team 6 or the SAS.

We did get a chance to mingle, and one of their snipers joked that if they
had been operational during WWII, their first mission would have been to
elminate Patton.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html 

"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." 
           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #296
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 297



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #288
Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: More "First In" artwork...
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Websites (was: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?)
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
T4 recommendations
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: On IISS Patches...
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Dizie Does Lily?
Re: PBEM Opening
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re:  PBEM Opening
Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)
Warning: Shameless OT Plug

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:48:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #288

At 11:12 PM 3/16/99 GMT, you wrote:

>>To properly crossover Callahans we will have to move it from Long
>>Island, unless your campaign is set on Terra.

>"...any bar can be Callahan's place, as soon as responsible
>people start hanging out there together. ..."
>
>Why move it when you can create it?

Even further, Callahans exists as a newsgroup and IRC channel.  I'm the
Sniper in the Rafters on the former and Sniper in the latter.  (I'm rarely
on IRC, since Kirsten is far more active on that front.  Maybe when we get
the second 'puter and ADSL.)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:37:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Uses for decommissioned starships

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Joseph Coles wrote:

> Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium after
> the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I imagine
> that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
> entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as museums?
> And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
> permamently moored at a major High Port?  

Perhaps such vessels could be converted by lower-tech worlds and serve as
orbiting stations/habitats. A 100k ship has a lot of space (especially if 
you take out the jump drive as unneeded), and as long as the frame is
intact, it's still pretty useful.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:40:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: More "First In" artwork...

Glenn, Frank, and others, thanks for the compliments on the artwork.
I'd rather get that than the paycheck! :^0

Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
> 
> >2) I want an IGS patch!  I've played variants of the same ex-IGS
> >character in a few campaigns (a 5FW vet with a little post-traumatic
> >stress disorder and two ex-wives to look for or maybe hide from), and I
> >have just the hat for it (black cotton North Face baseball cap ... or
> >maybe the black BDU combat cap ... hmm).
> 
> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how much
> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.

Be careful here, Frank.  If it were just up to me, I'd say, "Go for it!"
However, this material is all officially copyright 1999, Steve Jackson
Games, Inc.  That means no part or component may copied without express
prior consent of a qualified representative of SJG.  Further, Loren
indicated to me that, while the art in the "First In" supplement would
all be grey scale, the color versions were required in case SJG decided
to do patches for commercial release.  Given the interest on this list,
perhaps a flood of letters demanding patches would be a better idea.
If SJG has them produced en-mass, they can almost certainly do it for
less than if you have it done as a one-off.

> Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly
> common on a flight line, but that would be another place to put one.
> Now, all we need is the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches
> Exploration Branch Grav-Ball team or some other T-Shirt design suitable
> for a scout.

Now *this* sounds like a kick-ass idea!  I'll get right on it.  BTW,
if I come up with anything decent here, it'll be free for TML members
to use and abuse as they see fit! :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:01:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 

At 10:16 AM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>Not a problem.  I send waste time thinking up such things.  I can also run
>>most situations off the cuff with little slow down in the game.  I've been
>>playing RPG and GMing for almost 20 years.  I've got lots of material I
>>can
>>reuse.  The dwarf becomes a Feringi, the ogre a Wookie, the jewels a data
>>disk...  You just need a little imagination.  A few 'prepared' stock gaffs
>>and muguffins help also.
>
>As an older Old Traveller Fart than Charles, I feel qualified to comment
>on this :-)  
>
>The following is my opinion only, and subject to change without notice.
>
>Most good refs can manage a few off-the-cuff situations, but the best refs
>I've seen have combined good improv skills with _lots_ of preparation for
>the routine stuff. This has several advantages:
>

I agree, This is the best method.  I did not mean to say that a secion
should be run off-the-cuff.  Most times I have a prepared storyline and a
few dozen near by locations plus all the other locations that have been
created before IF the player are on their on home ground.

>i) Saves improv for when the players deviate from the prepared path.
>

Very true.

>ii) Helps ensure consistency, and helps the ref remember everything
>(important when running a ten-year, once-a-month campaign with players
>more intelligent than oneself).
>

Yes.  It is hard keeping consistance with a long running game with long
breaks.  Besides the material created for each adventure a GM diary is
usefull.  That way if you have to create a personallity off the cuff you can
make note of him and his location JIC the PC need to look him up later.

>iii) Helps ensure truly creative encounters--my players, at least, are
>good at spotting filed-off serial numbers :-)
>
>
>Different referees have different styles, but I prefer to have as much as
>possible prepared ahead of time. I use computers to do the bulk
>generation, leaving me free to concentrate on plot, character, and
>atmosphere. As I never throw anything away, I also have almost two cubic
>metres of Traveller material to draw on, as well.
>

Sounds like my 'gaming room'.  I have most of the CT adventures.  The
original publishes advantures, autherized adventures, magazine adventure,
and fan created stuff.

>That said, my best games have been ones where the players deviated from
>the 'script' almost immediately. I was improvising like hades, but because
>I had a large stock of preprepared locations and NPCs I was free to
>concentrate on adding to the fun, rather than remembering what colour the
>bartender's hair was (my NPC descriptions include physical details). The
>players didn't notice that they were venturing into 'unexplored
>territory', and even found 'clues' in some chance remarks. (Which I worked
>into the plot post-facto, because their reasoning made sense.)
>
>

Sound like something that happened to me.  I ran a hostage rescue type
adventure using the floor plans and location from research station gamma as
the 'secret bad guy abandoned military base'.  They took a totally diferent
approach than I planned for.  They researched the place thoughly including
securing the aid of and civilian once employed as a maintence worker at the
base before it closed.  They blew the power plant and stole the air rafts
and then froze the bad guys out after arranging to prevent the arrival of
their excape ship (Seased due to (planted) contraband and an anonomous tip).
The PCs never fired a shot.


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:03:16 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

|
|A good song from a so-so movie.  I heard that they are going to make a new
|bigger budget version of the Lord of the Rings.  Anybody got any info as to
|the status of the project?


I hope they reuse the song, though.  My favorite part of the silly cartoon.




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:58:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Websites (was: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?)

At 02:17 PM 3/17/99 +0000, you wrote:

>There is apparently a very good links website with ratings
>and descriptions and stuff.
>
>Unfortunately I don't have it bookmarked. :-(

Taking this as a jumping point, can I ask that folks name their traveller
pages something other than simply "Traveller"?

I went to update my links page, and the vast majority of these pages were
named in this manner, and it makes it very hard to set up interesting
links, or even keep track of which page I'm jumping to.  At the least, name
it "<your name>'s Traveller Page.

Thank you.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:02:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

At 11:31 PM 3/15/99 -0900, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote
>
>> Does some brave soul want to do the GURPS: Traveller bar encounter 
>> rules for T:TSE?
>
>GURPS already has rules for this in GURPS Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
>(based on the Spider Robinson books of the same name).  Callahans would
>make a good crossover for G:Trav.  Gurps Callahans is a good supplement
>on a very surreal subject & it has nice Donna Barr art.  I think it is
>OP, though.
>
>Obviously Harmonian = Ancient

No, no.. Harmonians are from the Fourth Imperium!

So, should I just write up the G:T entry as "buy GURPS Callahan's Crosstime
Saloon"?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:12:01
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

At 09:43 AM 3/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Frank Pitt wrote:
>> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how much
>> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.
>
>When you find out, I would be interested in getting a few myself.  :) 
> (Probably three, depending on cost.)

I think that we could probably get a pretty good order up.  Find out what
the rate is on bulk orders.

>> Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly
common >>on a flight line, but that would be another place to put one. Now,
all we 
>>need is the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches Exploration Branch 
>>Grav-Ball team or some other T-Shirt design suitable for a scout
>
>Or maybe "Property of Rhylanor Jump Institute Athletic Department" in
>white letters on a blue T-shirt.

When I was but a lad, I would get a custom t-shirt for my birthday.  Soon
after Alien Book 4 came out, we went to Dale's Shirt Wheel, and I got a t
that declared Tavrchsedle' in big black letters.  Confused the clerk.  To
this day, one of my friends calls me Traveller because of the black and red
Traveller shirt I wore every other day.

>Or even "I made First Contact at (insert world/subsector here) and 
>all I got was this lousy T-shirt"  :)
>
>> ( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one
with
>> the words "Shit Happens" in large friendly letters seem appropriate ? )
>
>Sounds cool.  You might also consider something from the "Laser 
>Dancer" nugget posted a few months back.  A concert T-shirt from a 
>futuristic group or entertainment style would be cool, but probably 
>too expensive.

VeedBack  (from "Roadshow" by John Ford")


>> I already have the unkempt beard, the Pilot sunglasses, the jeans, and the
>> insanity .

>Now, that conjures a better image for an Exploration Scout.  Cool!  
>Throw in either long hair or a flattop hair style, and you've got it!

check out the photo on my homepage.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:22:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>Derek again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why only one turret per 100 tons?  Imperial Law perhaps, but if you can
>cram 3
>turrets into a 100 ton design why not, you're obviously not designing a
>cargo ship
>or civillian transport, it's a purely military vessel.  As long as you
>take the
>additional mass into account in your thrust to weight ratio, go nuts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Something of a handwave here - perhaps a combination of standardized
>designs, isolating turrets from each other, safety, surface area
>requirements (for sensors, radiators, etc.). You cram your three turrets
>into your 100tn ship, maybe you have more lasers than your radiators
>can handle the waste heat from - and when one gets damaged, it takes
>out the others with an overload.

Actually, if you design the ship paying attention to surface area, you
find the 1 turret per 100 dtons is a reasonable approximation to what you
can actually install. 

TNE did away with the 1/100 limit, but added surface area, so that you had
another constraint on your design. Add more weapons, but then you have
less surface area for drives and sensors. Made for interesting trade-offs. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:24:01 PST
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: T4 recommendations

T4 recomendations:
  Largely everything produced is a dud.  Some exceptions noted below:
1.   Anomanles - series of adventures thoughtfully laid out forming a 
logical campaign except for the last which reaks too much of Alien.  But 
a good way to kill off the cahracters to begin afresh.                 
2.  Pocket Empires --  good also for other milieus as well just 
substitute Pocket Empire for Client State.
3.  A long way home -- good adventure. although, pt 2(GATEWAY) is too 
mcuh like a Blakes' 7 rerun listing.
4.  Emperor's Arsenal -- A few good vehicles for all sorts of purposes.
   Basically stay away from T4 save Mileu 0 Campaign book as it is more 
Animie than Hard SF.  You migh want to search out Digest Group 
Publications (esp. their mag.  Travellers' Digest and MegaTraveller 
Journal) would need some work to integrate into a GURPS or other milieu 
but their background material is fantastic esp (TD 11+).

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:32:25 -0500
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
>unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
>for political reasons, not practical ones.

They are in reserve status because of money and manpower issues.  Because
the Navy failed to update the engineering and firecontrol systems when they
modernized the ships in the eighties it requires a disproportional number of
sailors to man these ships.  The enginerooms and firerooms could have been
updated with the same technology that allows power companies to keep seventy
year old steam power plants in operation today with a fraction of the people
it took to operate them when they were built.
In the face of declining manpower and money the Navy could not continue to
operate these ships.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I.T.C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:32:10 -0800
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...

When you go to get embroidered patches, t-shirts and hats, the embroiderer
is going to need a program for the machine to run the design. They are going
to charge a set-up fee or a "digitizing" fee for each design. These charges
can range from $50 to $200 US. The reason I am saying this, is I am an
independant "digitizer" (the person the embroiderer pays that fee to program
the design). For the simple fact that I love traveller, I will offer any
traveller discount programming for their embroidered goods. Feel free to
price it out at your local embroiderer... and then ask me to beat the price!
Wouldn't you want your design made by someone who loves traveller as much as
you rather than some guy who's never heard of it?

Shawn Campbell
Electric Stitch Digitizing
electric-stitch@w-link.net
http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: On IISS Patches...


>At 09:43 AM 3/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Frank Pitt wrote:
>>> Well, I'm going into a local badge manufacturer tomoorrow to see how
much
>>> they'll charge to produce the Exploration Branch badges.
>>
>>When you find out, I would be interested in getting a few myself.  :)
>> (Probably three, depending on cost.)
>
>I think that we could probably get a pretty good order up.  Find out what
>the rate is on bulk orders.
>
>>> Hadn't thought of the cap, largely because caps aren't particularly
>common >>on a flight line, but that would be another place to put one. Now,
>all we
>>>need is the T-shirt design for the Spinward Marches Exploration Branch
>>>Grav-Ball team or some other T-Shirt design suitable for a scout
>>
>>Or maybe "Property of Rhylanor Jump Institute Athletic Department" in
>>white letters on a blue T-shirt.
>
>When I was but a lad, I would get a custom t-shirt for my birthday.  Soon
>after Alien Book 4 came out, we went to Dale's Shirt Wheel, and I got a t
>that declared Tavrchsedle' in big black letters.  Confused the clerk.  To
>this day, one of my friends calls me Traveller because of the black and red
>Traveller shirt I wore every other day.
>
>>Or even "I made First Contact at (insert world/subsector here) and
>>all I got was this lousy T-shirt"  :)
>>
>>> ( why does a Led Zeppelin or Harley Davidson t-shirt, or that black one
>with
>>> the words "Shit Happens" in large friendly letters seem appropriate ? )
>>
>>Sounds cool.  You might also consider something from the "Laser
>>Dancer" nugget posted a few months back.  A concert T-shirt from a
>>futuristic group or entertainment style would be cool, but probably
>>too expensive.
>
>VeedBack  (from "Roadshow" by John Ford")
>
>
>>> I already have the unkempt beard, the Pilot sunglasses, the jeans, and
the
>>> insanity .
>
>>Now, that conjures a better image for an Exploration Scout.  Cool!
>>Throw in either long hair or a flattop hair style, and you've got it!
>
>check out the photo on my homepage.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:36:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Alan Chambers wrote:

> Could you make me a copy of the whip Laser without the weasels? I would
> like the Fly wheel powered by my arm and Leg movements. This way I could
> recharge in combat by Flapping my arms and moving in circles. Quacking
> optional.

We are are, in fact, developing a heavier laser rifle powered by a troop
of dancing bears.  Tactical Response for Sudden Intervention in
Chaotic Organizational Emergencies:  TRPSICHORE.  

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:38:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> Alternatively - though less green - you could use "sprint weasels". The 
> two weasels in the generator wheels, instead of running at their sustainable
> power level, are each run at about 5-10 watts through the administration of
> electric shocks and/or powerful drugs. When they burn out after a minute, 
> new weasels are released from a weasel storage chamber. (After all, the 
> weight of the generator wheels probably exceeds the weight of the weasels.)
> My mental picture the storage chamber is an underbarrel tube magazine 
> (prefably transparent) like a shotgun, packed full-o-weasels; I imagine a 
> sort of pump shotgun action...(kching-squeel-zap-squeel!-ZAP!)
> (kching is the pump mechanism, squeel is the used weasels being ejected,
> zap is the electric shock, squeel! is the new weasels getting up to speed,
> ZAP! is the laser shot.)

And so the whirligig of time brings in its revenges.  

Pepsi: 1
Harvard Computing Services: 0

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:37:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Dizie Does Lily?

I always pictured her as Elmyra from Tiny Toons, grown up, and now a weapons
desinger / publicist  :D

Jesse


>Why does Ditzie sound like Lily Tomlin at the switchboard?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:04:23 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: PBEM Opening

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Clif wrote:

> Really exceptional looking presentation of your PBEM, Michel!
> 
> --Clif
> 

	Thanks very much, Cliff...  I have a lot of fun doing this stuff,
so its my favorite hobby from both a gaming and web-work POV.

	The website is as much for the PBEM as for the "FTF/In Person"
game I run...  the players routinely check the site when they are scheming
between sessions and have a question =).  It also gives *me* a place to
put all of my information in some semblance of organization.

	I'm glad you liked it!

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:01:24 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

>beyond the frontier. Jump Torpedoes are only mentioned in this one CT
>source, and have severe effects on the rest of CT Canon if they are used.


Actually, they are mentioned in CT book 2, Starships as well.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because 
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:59:33 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>>Note that Iowa and New Jersey are currently in "reserve" status.  They are
>>unlikely to ever be recommissioned, however, and are on the reserve list
>>for political reasons, not practical ones.
>
>They are in reserve status because of money and manpower issues.  Because
>the Navy failed to update the engineering and firecontrol systems when they
>modernized the ships in the eighties it requires a disproportional number of
>sailors to man these ships.  The enginerooms and firerooms could have been
>updated with the same technology that allows power companies to keep seventy
>year old steam power plants in operation today with a fraction of the people
>it took to operate them when they were built.
>In the face of declining manpower and money the Navy could not continue to
>operate these ships.


The cost to cut through the armor belt to access engineering would have been
prohibitive - not to mention that the skill set needed to weld that armor
has been lost.  From what I understood, anything less than a full conversion
to BBN was not practical.

The fire control suite was upgraded, what was not was the ammunition
handling systems.  After the IOWA turret incident, I saw some documentation
about converting the main guns from bagged powder to a injected 2-component
plastic explosive propellent, but the decision to decommission the four BBs
was made instead.

It is a sad truth that the BBs are TL5 relics in a TL8 world.  I've always
regretted that I did not tour the IOWA when we were moored across from her.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:17:24 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re:  PBEM Opening

	Hello, everyone!
	My TNEC PBEM is now "full" again;  both available slots are now
filled.
	I must say I am startled by how fast you can recruit players on
this list.  Thanks, everyone!

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	   Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:14:51 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms (http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/131.htm)

Bummer.  I had feeling (for exactly the reasons you mentioned), but I had to
try :)

Jesse


>At 08:29 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>If it had a conventional magazine behind the pistol grip, it mighta' been
>>the Steyr ACR prototype.  You were at Benning for a demo by GSG9?  With
ACR
>>prototypes?  I'm jealous!  Bring pictures to BayCon if you've got 'em :)
>
>Pictures.  Right.  We got a lecture on what we could not do.  No pictures.
>No sketches.  We were searched before being allowed into the demo area.
>GSG9 is as paranoid as SEAL Team 6 or the SAS.
>
>We did get a chance to mingle, and one of their snipers joked that if they
>had been operational during WWII, their first mission would have been to
>elminate Patton.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient."
>           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:25:25 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Warning: Shameless OT Plug

	Please forward this message to any other gaming lists you may be
on.

	           Join the PBEM/IRC Logs Mailing List!                       
                                                                         
        The PBEM/IRC Logs Mailing List's stated purpose is a) 
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 298



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
re: Beanstalks
Re: For the "humor challenged"
So, you wanna' be a star?
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel (Torps)
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: SecurityArms
Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel
when the enemy thinks more of your generals...
PLUG was For the "humor challenged"
Re: SecurityArms
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 
Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: GT Sublike combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:47:45 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

At 01:22 PM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:

>> Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium
after
>> the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I
imagine
>> that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
>> entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as
museums?
>> And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
>> permamently moored at a major High Port?  
>
>Perhaps such vessels could be converted by lower-tech worlds and serve as
>orbiting stations/habitats. A 100k ship has a lot of space (especially if 
>you take out the jump drive as unneeded), and as long as the frame is
>intact, it's still pretty useful.
>
>Brannon

Plus there's always the old faithful prison hulk. Imagine trying to escape
from something like that! Tough enough to swim the freezing San Francisco
Bay from Alcatraz, but how the heck are you gonna escape from a block of
metal in space? I don't imagine personal reentry kits are found by the
dozen on an orbital prison facility.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:48:05 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Beanstalks

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Beanstalks may not be 100% safe, either. 
>A White Dwarf magazine had a scenario called "Tower Trouble" in it, based
>around the beanstalk on Terra. One possible (though unlikely) outcome
>of the scenario had the beanstalk being cut, with the devastation of a major
>urban area following as miles of superdense cable fell on it from near-orbit.

Make that devastation of the equator of the planet.  That beanstalk is
*tall*, and it's going to wrap itself around the planet at least once.
>>>>>>>>>>>

Depends where the cable breaks. Also, recall that the cable is moving at
orbital speed (it's connected to a geosynchronous anchor) - it's not going
to "stay still" while the planet turns under it, it's going to maintain some
of it's orbital velocity as it falls. Still, that many tons of stuff at fall-from
- -orbit velocity...

How long is this beanstalk cable, anyway? If you broke it at the base,
would the geosynch anchor pull it away "safely"?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:49:54 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> The generic bar bit was what we on this planet call "a joke."
> Hmmm..instead of naming the bartender "Guy", call him "Joe"
> as in "Joe Generio".

They call him Joe Public over here.

Ewan

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:54:58 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: So, you wanna' be a star?

OK folks, here's the drill.  I've got another last minute deadline from
Loren.



The deadline's the 29th of this month or sooner.



This one's for a cover.



This one's going to have LIVE people on the cover (HOPEFULLY).



This one I REALLY need YOUR help with if you're up to it.  Here's the deal.
This is for the G:T "Starports" book (yeah, this is the first I've heard of
it too as far as I can remember).  I'll have more specifics a little later,
but what I'm looking for is people that have or can improvise reasonable
costumes of any race, culture, etc.  Special bonus points :) for
non-humanoid, non-Star Trek foam-on-nose, aliens.  Then I'd need you to take
some pictures following specific directions as to where you place the
camera, how many degrees angled off from centerline, how many degrees the
camera is tilted, height of the camera, preferred lighting conditions, etc.
And I'd need the pictures as soon as humanly (alienly? :) possible.  What
will happen then is that I'll photocomposite those pictures over 3d
renderings of whatever environment we create for the shot.  The basic
environment will already be created when I send out the specifications of
angles to the individual participants.  Ideally, the pictures that you take
should be from a tripod and against a brightly lit (i.e. fully sunlit)
light-colored seamless background, such as a large bedsheet.  REALLY ideally
you'd be able to take the pictures against a blue or green screen ala
Industrial Light and Magic, but I shan't hold my breath on that score :)

About the only credit I can guarentee you is "Thank you to ......" in the
upcoming biliography section of my webpage and my undying thanks.  Maybe a
"thanks to the TML'ers" message in the inside cover, but no gurantees on
that one as I'd have to get Loren to do it.  No pay is involved.  Sorry, I
don't make THAT much off of the artwork :)  You'd be doing it for the
greater good of Traveller (and the kick of having your picture [from
whatever angle] on the cover for all posterity :)


The environment is going to be along the flightline and terminal area of a
starport.  Specifics beyond that I don't have yet as I'm still doing
pre-production sketches.  What I'm mainly looking for is people who can look
like ground personnel, mechanics, security, etc.  Alas, I'm nowhere near
production of vac-formed combat armor so I can't have any heavy security
prescense.  Damn! :)  Depending on how the "movie set" ends up, I may need
some pedestrian images as well (Roger's got a VERY cool one for that, but
I'd need more as well).

If you're interested and think (better yet KNOW) you can contribute, please
drop me a line at fenris@slip.net.  If you've got a brainstorm idea, you may
want to post it to the list as well to get other's creative juices flowing.
While I'm posting the novel here, let me take the time to give everyone on
the TML a hearty "THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT"!!!!!  Everyone's
been a tremendous help over the past few months with comments and scans
support for reference material that I didn't have.  Your comments keep me
going full-tilt-boogie on this stuff and I'm having a grand ol' time!!!


Best Regards & MANY Thanks,
Jesse DeGraff
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:02:22 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel (Torps)

|>beyond the frontier. Jump Torpedoes are only mentioned in this one CT
|>source, and have severe effects on the rest of CT Canon if they are used.
|
|Actually, they are mentioned in CT book 2, Starships as well.


Perhaps that should be clarified.  They are mentioned in passing under
"Expendables" on page 18 of the first edition.  That whole section was
dropped from the 2nd edition.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:14:21 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

Gives a whole new meaning to being put on 'short rations' too...

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships


>At 01:22 PM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>> Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium
>after
>>> the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I
>imagine
>>> that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
>>> entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as
>museums?
>>> And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
>>> permamently moored at a major High Port?
>>
>>Perhaps such vessels could be converted by lower-tech worlds and serve as
>>orbiting stations/habitats. A 100k ship has a lot of space (especially if
>>you take out the jump drive as unneeded), and as long as the frame is
>>intact, it's still pretty useful.
>>
>>Brannon
>
>Plus there's always the old faithful prison hulk. Imagine trying to escape
>from something like that! Tough enough to swim the freezing San Francisco
>Bay from Alcatraz, but how the heck are you gonna escape from a block of
>metal in space? I don't imagine personal reentry kits are found by the
>dozen on an orbital prison facility.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
>cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:19:56 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Joseph Coles wrote:
> Traveller connection:  what happens to old naval ships in the imperium after
> the imperial, reserve, and mothball fleets are through with them?  I imagine
> that most are either sold for scrap or to other political
> entities/megacorps.  Are any particularly famous ships preserved as museums?

IMTU (one of 'em, anyway, very non-canon, with no Imperium in 
sight), the first jump-capable exploration ship built by humans, 
_Pathfinder_, was a museum piece. As it was only a couple of 
hundred years old, it turned out that most of the important parts 
still worked. One of the PCs took a job as curator and maintainer, 
and over a period of months, did whatever midnight requisitioning 
and "restoration work" was needed to get the ship flyable. The 
PC party wound up fleeing an alien invasion in it. 

> And how does one display a 100K ton non streamlined vessel?  Just
> permamently moored at a major High Port?  

I imagine so. Maybe you bring it down to the surface in a 500Kt 
streamlined cargo ship (!), unload it in the water, and moor it next 
to its namesake, a TL6 wet navy carrier. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:55:50 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

Oh, please, stop it, your killin' me, stop it, stop it I say, I'm havin'
hallucinations of great sky spanning starships propelled by fly-wheels
powered up by elephants on carousels chased by mad weasels pursued by
Sayat troopers with cattle prods........

Stop it, I can't stand it....................

8^)

JimC

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:35:58 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

SD Mooney wrote:

>>The ASW fit on a Type 42 DDG is minimal.
>
>Couple of torpedo tubes, plus a helicopter? HMS Sheffield didn't have the
>TTs IIRC.

About the size of it. Without a towed array, you're stuffed for ASW.

>>The superstructure on a T42 is steel, too. There are some aluminium
>>fittings, but none significant enough to be a factor in the fire.
>
>I thought that was the case - I remember the PVC wire insulation being
>attributed as part of the problem, but the Al issue being a type 21 thing.

Right. The insulation gives off a toxic, obscuring smoke (and is hard to
put out). We now use non-toxic wiring.

>>The `aluminium problem' on the Type 21s never really occurred as a
>>flammability issue. The Type 21s *did* suffer from hull cracking (they
>>were never intended for South Atlantic service). The real `aluminium
>>problem' was USS Belknap (IIRC), which suffered severe flame damage
>>after a collision with a carrier.
>
>I suspect the Al build means that the ship wouldn't be as easily
>recoverable from battle damage (unlike the initial plans to repair HMS
>Sheffield).

I think, realistically, that SHEFFIELD would have been scrapped after
examination to work out what happened. Mind you, SOUTHAMPTON was
repaired after a serious knock in the Gulf.

ObTrav: Rules for fixing battle damage? What proportion of battle damage
is temporary (thrown breakers, minor glitches, power brownout induced
crashes et al) and how much is serious (Star-trek style exploding
panels?)

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:30:28 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< And yes, it is possible to perform flight ops from a STOVL carrier when
> a CTOL carrier can't.
> >>
>
>How? 

because with a ski-jump the aircraft never gets fired into the water by
a poorly timed catapult stroke; and it's far, far easier to stop then
land on a pitching deck than to land and then try to stop.

>The Nimitz class CVN's are HUGE! Their freeboard is (I think 125' from
>waterline to flight deck) and size makes them VERY stable. I would think that
>a 90,000 ton platform would be more weather resistant than an Illustrious
>class CVS that is only 15,000 tons (I think ?)... Matt what's her tonnage?

20,000 tons for an Invincible class CVS.

ObTrav: Carriers in space don't have this problem. But can they launch
fighters (and can a Battle Tender launch it's Battle Riders) when it's
using fuel scoops in a GG?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:27:39 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< The ship was a destroyer, not a frigate. Primary role is AA, but has a
> >secondary ASW fit out.
> 
> The ASW fit on a Type 42 DDG is minimal. >>
>
>This might explain some of the confusion. I think that the USN (among other
>navies) defines ship types by function. Destroyers are ASW ships and cruisers
>are AA ships. Frigates are slower cheaper DD's. These are only generalizations
>but can cause some confusion. By this reasoning, I could see a type 42 called
>a cruiser and a Broadsword as a DD or a frigate...How does the RN classify
>surface combatants?

I think you have that backwards. The USN classifies ship by size and
capability. Small and cheap is a frigate; medium is a destroyer, large
and expensive is a cruiser.

The RN classifies by role - Frigates do ASW, Destroyers do Area AAW. You
can also look to the Type numbers - Type 2x is an ASW escort (thus a
Frigate); Type 4x is an AAW Escort (thus a destroyer).

>Ob Trav: How does the major interstellar navies classify their ships?

By size and role.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:47:39 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

Clif wrote:

>Complicated?  If anything, it is far more simplistic in its design than an
>M-16 action.

Bullets going through a ninety degree turn in two axes is simple?

>It actually has LESS moving parts than most weapons.  And I've never heard
>anything about the weapon's function being the problem.  Just the ammo.  H&K
>claims that it worked all of that out and that during tests, the solid
>propellant was subjected to crushing, dropping a magazine from an aircraft,
>etc.

Insensitive munitions are no big deal.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:40:21 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat - was [none]

SD Mooney wrote:

>>Pejorative word for surface-ships and their crews.
>
>I see... I'd generally agree, but I don't think that modern missile weapons
>and fighters/bombers have a Traveller feel.

I was thinking more along the lines of `heavy steel' - probably a mash
of 1914, before the submarine could be relied on in fleet actions (they
tended to attack, and be attacked by, their own sides), and before the
aircraft was a serious threat; - but with the sensors and communications
of 1942-era ships.

>>>>>>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>>>>>>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>>>>>But some girls wander by mistake.
>>>>Seems like you've got a slight case of overbombing.
>>>... which results in a black planet.
>>You'll be needing your vision thing, then.
>
>Or a torch, which will let me see More of the Colours around, unless I just
>Walk away.

But that would take you down Detonation Boulevard, where you would be
Under the Gun.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:43:51 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>As I recall, part of the problem was that Exocets, being a NATO weapon,
>were default classified as *friendly* by the sensor suite. That led to
>a lot of software changes by *everyone* as it sunk in that you had to
>assume that someday you just might be fighting "allies". 

Not true. The UAA-1 system was perfectly capable of detecting both the
Argave radar on the Super Entendard and the Exocet terminal seeker.
Classification as friend or foe is done by the operator.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:39:37 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump Capable Vessel

Under TL21, you can build a jump capable space suit.

The design is squirred away on my web site somewhere,
probably easier to find from the Gearhead page.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/

I didn't design it, I just liked it.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:50:45 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: when the enemy thinks more of your generals...

Doug Berry writes:
>We did get a chance to mingle, and one of their snipers joked that if they
>had been operational during WWII, their first mission would have been to
>elminate Patton.

Patton was given much more credit by the German General Staff than
the Allied General Staff did.

It is arguable that his greated foe in WWII wasn't Rommel but,
Montgomery.

There was a Pyramid article on Time Travel missions that had the heros
trying to shorten WWII by trying to get more theatre command to Patton,
and less to Monty.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:33:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: PLUG was For the "humor challenged"

Someone wrote:

>>>You've obviously not played with my players...this is a _great_
>>>description. Now come up with 25 of them, real time, as your players
>>>wander from bar to bar looking for likely place...
>>Not a problem.  I send waste time thinking up such things.  I can also run
>>most situations off the cuff with little slow down in the game.  I've been
>>playing RPG and GMing for almost 20 years.  I've got lots of material I can
>>reuse.  The dwarf becomes a Feringi, the ogre a Wookie, the jewels a data
>>disk...  You just need a little imagination.  A few 'prepared' stock gaffs
>>and muguffins help also.

<PLUG>

And if you feel 'imaginationally challenged', you could get hold of 101
Travellers and 101 Rendezvous, part of the BITS 101 series. Travellers has
101 npcs, actually designed for shipboard use, but also ideal for a
Starport encounter. Rendezvous has 101 different locations to meet - bars,
hotels and so on. Great for a Ref in a hurry, and available now from SJG in
North America, and all good games shops in the UK.

</PLUG>

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:35:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: SecurityArms

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>It actually has LESS moving parts than most weapons.  And I've never heard
>anything about the weapon's function being the problem.  Just the ammo.  H&K
>claims that it worked all of that out and that during tests, the solid
>propellant was subjected to crushing, dropping a magazine from an aircraft,
>etc.
>
>Loyalty to Colt seems to be the main obstacle in adoption.


I'm sure British Aerospace will happily let Colt make some of the weapons
under licence, and just have H&K make a proportion.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:45:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 

"Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:

><sigh> I guess sarcasm is a lost art.  I'll refrain.  Apologies, all.

And then answers his own question...

>|ObTrav: Would Swordworlders in the Marches provoke flame wars on the X-Boat
>|lists...?
>As a card carrying member of "Lightning's Hand"
><http://www.downport.com/ct/FTAS.html> I'd be more likely to load it with
>explosives than to use it to send sarcastic e-mail.

;-)

>FREE THE BORDER WORLDS!!!

USE THE STAR TRIGGER ON THE SWORD WORLDS!

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:03:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:

>	http://www.bits.org.uk/
>
>I would stronly recommend looking around the web.
>
>There is apparently a very good links website with ratings
>and descriptions and stuff.
>
>Unfortunately I don't have it bookmarked. :-(

It's Hyphen's and it's linked from the jumpsite page on the BITS site.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:39:46 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:

>Yes, but, from what I've been told since moving here, IOWA would never
>make it past the US 190 bridge over the Mississippi in north Baton
>Rouge.  Supposedly, Gov. Huey P. Long decreed that the bridge should be
>built too low to allow ocean-going vessels to pass under, in order to
>ensure that no river city north of Baton Rouge could become a seaport.

One last hurrah for the 16" ers?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:41:52 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Sublike combat

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>...
>>Or a torch, which will let me see More of the Colours around, unless I just
>>Walk away.
>
>  You could drop this completely OT thread - have mercy.                  :)

Ok, Sister. Or, at the risk of snaking off somewhere else, should that be
Sibling? ;-)

Giving Ground to your Logic, I'd better do Something Fast to avoid being
caught between A Rock and A Hard Place. Hopefully, having admitted I Was
Wrong, there will be some way to Fix The Damage Done before my reputation
is torn to Ribbons. When You Don't See Me commenting on this thread any
More, you'll know I've struck my Colours, becoming Some Kind of Stranger to
these awful puns involving Sisters of Mercy song titles.

ObTrav: Hmm... Stuck for this one, suspect the thread has wandered too far...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #298
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 299



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: buying T4 material - suggestions?
Re: Fusion Guns
Re: Dizie Does Lily?
re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: SayBOOM goes Green
re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
Re: Canonicity
Re: Uses for decommissioned starships
Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel
Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)
Re: Canonicity
[DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 
Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)
Tower Trouble
Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth
Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?
Re: For the "humor challenged"
Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?
Grav tank tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:58:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: buying T4 material - suggestions?

"Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I am a fairly new Traveller player and I am going to purchase some
>supplementary material for T4.  I currently own only the basic T4 book.
>Please let me know of 4 additional products you think are good buys (T4
>material only).
>
>My preliminary thoughts were running along the line of:
>Milieu 0 Campaign

Yes - don't buy MO and First Survey Separately.

>Starships
No - it's very poor - SSDS is broken and a fixed version of it (and QSDS)
is on the net. Find the old Traveller Supplement Traders and Gun Boats for
much better deck plans.


>FFSv2
If you like that sort of thing. Make sure you get the errata.

>and a fourth book.

I would buy Central Supply Catalog (Equipment, Computers and Vehicles) and
Emperor's Arsenal. Next I would buy Psionic Institutes. Following that I
would buy Aliens Archive and Pocket Empires.

I would not buy: First Survey, Starships, The Annililik Run, Missions of
State, Emperor's Vehicles or Anomalies.

I'd also buy 101 Travellers, 101 Rendezvous, 101 Cargos and 101 Lifeforms
as a starter. But as I write for BITS I'd take this bit with a pinch of
salt.

If you want more info, contact me off list.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:00:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Guns

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

> I'm making this all up as I go along , of course, I've never constructed a
>fusion gun before, nor even seen one in use, so feel free to object if it
>doesn't make sense

We've handwaved lasers before, so why not fusion guns.. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:40:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Dizie Does Lily?

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> I always pictured her as Elmyra from Tiny Toons, grown up, and now a weapons
> desinger / publicist  :D

I actually pictured Ditzie as a twelve to thirteen year old child 
genius/idot savant with intense conceptual understanding of 
weapon-based engineering, a speech impediment (her brain works faster 
than her mouth, and is usually thinking about her next "toy"), and 
extremely limited people skills.

Kinda like a preteen Elmyra with a fixation for weapons instead of 
animals.  :)

I can just imagine this little girl in a white mini-dress with purple 
polka dots, and purple tights underneath, picking up this massive 
gun almost half her size in the middle of her excited lecture to 
potential buyers, and blowing away some nearby building at an 
obstacle course/shooting range, narrowly missing the cluster of 
technicians in front of the small tower.  She doesn't even notice in 
her excitement, but keeps on going with her discussions of the 
weapon's capacities.  The crew around her, knowing her 
predispositions, runs to help the technician hit by flying shrapnel 
- -after she puts the weapon down-, all while the buyers are watching 
on in either shock or amusement.

That's kinda how I picture Ditzie.  YMMV.

Ducking From Ditzie,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:42:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
ObTrav: Carriers in space don't have this problem. But can they launch
fighters (and can a Battle Tender launch it's Battle Riders) when it's
using fuel scoops in a GG?
>>>>>>>>
Carriers: If the fighters are streamlined/partially streamlined, HG rules 
would say yes. Your GM might say yes, then ask your fighter pilots their
Ship's Boat skill while rolling dice and smiling evilly.

Battle Tenders: Almost all are unstreamlined, so won't be getting near
a gas giant. It may have a fuel shuttle making fuel runs.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:53:40 -0400
From: Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TNEC Ethnic Backgrounds Table

At 10:51 AM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote:

>How about a separate table or dice-roll, that tells you how many times to
>roll on the ethnic table?  If all your rolls happen to hit the same
>ethnicity, then you're one of those boring monocultural people who only
>get to celebrate one set of holidays a year :-)

        Hi, again, Rob!  This sounds like a good way to do it....  So, how about

        1d
        1-3 ...  Both parents same ethnic background
        4-5 ...  Each parent from different ethnic backgrounds (roll twice
on table)
         6  ...  Each parent and one grand-parent from different ethnic
backgrounds (roll three times on table)

        ...Given that we're only talking about little more than a century
from now, having 50% of parents from the same background seems to make
sense, with the other 50% being poly-cultural.

>Seriously, that depends on whether your future history has nationalities
>being preserved or not. _My_ Traveller universe doesn't, but that reflects
>my personal experiences (and bias).

        Given that nationalism has been entrenched in people's mindsets
(take the Balkans... they are fighting about countries which haven't existed
for half a century), I figure it will take more than a century (3-4
generations) to beat it out of Terran collective conciousness.  Heck, IMTU,
they've even fought a war over the issue...

>>        There is most likely Mic Mac Amerindian blood in my viens
>>somewhere
>>along the lines, but I am one of the *whitest* guys other than David Bowie
>>you are apt to meet...  So, at what point do you figure dilution?
>>Obviously, I want a *quick* system, but not one that routinely visits left
>>field....
>
>I would concentrate on the cultural aspects, and ignore things like skin
>pigmentation. My friend Eddie (Korean) is darker than my colleague Jackie
>(black), while his sister Jennie is paler than me...

        The problem with this statement is that while *I* am willing to surf
the Net and dig up a real name for someone from Tahiti (NPC in my TNEC PBEM
game is named Te-'ura), most folks aren't.  When the ref adds "Ethnic"
flavour to the game, people work from the minds eye...  Skin colour, typical
hair-color, body-frame, etc.  So, to some degree, while my table does not
say "You are from a Black North American Heritage, therefore you are
ebony-skinned", I am sure some folks will read it that way...  Because that
is their experience.

        Here's an example...  another NPC from TNEC PBEM:

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Army Captain Katlin "Jazz-Kat" Paulanovich              576667    
        Age 26
 
        Profile 
        2nd Generation Traveller 
        Combined Central European & Black North American Heritage 
        Often jokes she is the result of "one too many US/ Russian
diplomatic initiatives". Employed at the colony as a mechanic for HCM
working on ATV's and Earth Movers.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Take a guess what she looks like....  Dad was Russian, Mom was
Southern US (both UN Diplomats).

>>        Let me guess... you are in Toronto, right?
>
>Yup.
>

        I thought so...  I've only encountered that POV in MTL, TO and VAN.
While it is wonderfully refreshing, it's scarce.

>>        Here in Halifax, two friends of mine had a lot of grief from those
>>around them while they were dating...  he is black and she is white. 
>>Grief
>>that including physical violence from strangers.
>
>This _is_ something I think about every time I consider moving outside
>Toronto. Vancouver seems fairly reasonable, and there's always Trinidad...
>(Judging by my friends and their relatives here, Trinidadians seem like
>singularly tolerant people--and the women are all drop-dead gorgeous! Not
>a representative sample, I'll admit.)

        This is actually one reason I might be moving *to* Toronto/ GTA.  I
don't want my son growing up down here with the closet racism that is part
of NS life.  That and better money.
        As for Trinidadian women -- Nope, they are pretty much all that
stunning...  

>Among the many things I have to thank my grandparents for is the way they
>raised my parents _without_ the casual racism that was common in Britain.
>Life alone among the anglos would be so frigging _boring_!
>

        Je suis d'accord, mon amis.

        Thanks for the wonderful discussion, BTW...  This kind of exchange
of POV's and ideas is why I subscribe to the TML...

        --Michel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:53:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Chris Griffen wrote:

> Plus there's always the old faithful prison hulk. Imagine trying to escape
> from something like that! Tough enough to swim the freezing San Francisco
> Bay from Alcatraz, but how the heck are you gonna escape from a block of
> metal in space? I don't imagine personal reentry kits are found by the
> dozen on an orbital prison facility.

Cool idea, but it seems kind of pricey just for keeping prisoners on, what
with life support, supply delivery, etc. Unless it was some kind of
self-sustaining biosphere and the prisoners had to keep *themselves*
alive... now *that* might inspire some development of cooperation,hmm?

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:08:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SayBOOM goes Green

j a c wrote:
> 
> Oh, please, stop it, your killin' me, stop it, stop it I say, I'm havin'
> hallucinations of great sky spanning starships propelled by fly-wheels
> powered up by elephants on carousels chased by mad weasels pursued by
> Sayat troopers with cattle prods........

It gets worse...look closer...those aren't cattle prods.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:06:42 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

> IIRC.  The Nemisis?-Class cruiser or destroyer or something from CT
possessed
> Jump-Torpedo's.  Personally I think that a lot of the "rules" for starship
creation
> are just plain silly.

I hear you.  Thankfully FF&S got rid of most of em.  J-torps are mentioned
somewhere else, too IIRC.

> Why only one turret per 100 tons?  Imperial Law perhaps, but if you can cram 3
> turrets into a 100 ton design why not, you're obviously not designing a cargo ship
> or civillian transport, it's a purely military vessel.  As long as you take the
> additional mass into account in your thrust to weight ratio, go nuts.

Another one that you've hit on the head.  It's an obviously artificial limit.
Course, pre FF&S, designs didn't detail surface area or anything, so this
could be an abstraction of that (though I don't think that's the case).  If
you can get it to fit, there's no reason it shouldn't be on there.

> Why can ships over 100 ton's possess a Jump Drive.  Again rediculous but
> probably
> tied to Imperial Law.  Smaller vessels are harder to see so if 10 10ton jump
> capable fighters precipitated in your system they'd be harder to find than a
single
> 100 dt ship.  But seeing as the minimum volume for a JD is way under the 
> minimum volume required for a 100dt ship it must be possible.

Again, an obviously artificial limit and one that's hardly been religiously
kept.  3 of 4 versions of Traveller have exceptions to the 100dt rule (FF&S is
explicit in allowing jump ships of less than 100dt).  As far as G:T... anyone
want to try a Jump Torp w/ G:V?  The key to J-torps is to have them not be as
reliable (or desired) as the X-boat network.  Course, the Imperium is ashes is
IMC, so it's all ancient history...   Perhaps the Imp bureacracy and/or
Emperor are favorable to a powerful X-boat lobby. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:06:37 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canonicity

> >The way HEPlaR/T-plates are presented in FF&S and Challenge wouldn't affect
> >any of the source material, adventures, or campaigning in any way.
> 
> No, it would. Plasma is *hot*. The implications are nasty in an atmosphere
> or a confined space. Plasma arc cutters can be in excess of 15,000 deg C

It doesn't *have to* have any adverse effect when T-plates don't.  You might
want to introduce such effects, but it isn't necessary (or desirable).  HEPLaR
isn't a fusion drive, after all.

> Thats a fair point. I don't mind HEPLaR, but my problems are with the
> official killing of T-plates. I mean, you could just have easily handwaved
> that T-plates are limited to 6G max, and keep HEPLaR unlimited. The cost

Yeah.  It's easy to handwave either way.  *Nothing* in any TNE material would
change if T-plates from FF&S are used instead of HEPlaR.

> and solidity of HEPLaR would make it ideal for the RC - indeed, it could be
> a distinction of Virus and the Regency.
> 
> Scenario idea - an RCES team encounters a T-Plate Sulieman, and destroys
> it. Unknown to them, it is a deep contact Regency Scout....

Well if Virus infection was a problem w/ T-plates, the Regency would probably
retrofit, too.

For MTU, I've put T-plates (FF&S vintage) as TL17.  R&D is going on at
Vincennes.  Course, my Regency campaigns have never fully materialized, so the
possiblities have been left unexplored...

> >> I like both; BL is too complex for anyone but serious gamers... it would
> >> switch most of my players off..
> >
> >Note that I said B*R* or Battle Rider.
> 
> I did note that. Hence I said I like both...

Ah.  Seemed like u were referring to HG and BL.   :-)

> >  BL is IMO only appropriate for the PCs
> >vessel, and that wasn't too cumbersome for all the PCs to manage their own
> >ship (and they're hardly 'serious gamers').  That level of detail, for the
> >players ship anyways, is required and desired, IMO anyways.
> 
> My players tend to get turned off when a hex map appears... RPSCS is about
> as heavy as they'll take. Hence BL is way over the top.

The map is easily dispensed w/ too (though it never is, because we all like
it).  The map was always out on the table (usually only 1 when there wasn't a
combat situation).  I would tell them the range and approximate vectors of any
bogeys and if they decided to do something bout it, then some others would get
unfolded.  

> I have a problem with the GDW House System, as used with TNE, T2K 2.2, and
> DC. It seems overly complex. YMMV. ;-)

Ah ok.  lol.  Much more clear.  MMDV.  ;-)   All of the complexity is fairly
easily modular.  The task system is about as easy as they come.  Recoil, etc
etc isn't necessary, though was desirable for me and my group coming off've
Star Wars.  If we wanted simple, we'd have stayed w/ SW.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:22:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Uses for decommissioned starships

Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> 

> Cool idea, but it seems kind of pricey just for keeping prisoners on, what
> with life support, supply delivery, etc. Unless it was some kind of
> self-sustaining biosphere and the prisoners had to keep *themselves*
> alive... now *that* might inspire some development of cooperation,hmm?

Hmmm...maybe SayBOOM can subcontract for the power
supplies...chain-gangs, anyone?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:24:02 +0200 (EET DST)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Smallest Jump-Capable Vessel

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Rob Prior wrote:

> Actually, if you design the ship paying attention to surface area, you
> find the 1 turret per 100 dtons is a reasonable approximation to what you
> can actually install. 
> 
> TNE did away with the 1/100 limit, but added surface area, so that you had
> another constraint on your design. Add more weapons, but then you have
> less surface area for drives and sensors. Made for interesting trade-offs. 
> 
  
  Ive done a whole pile of ships with FF&S1 (for a guy who does them with
pencil paper & calculator) from a 5 D.ton assault boat to several thousand
D.ton liner (that was for 2300AD, though), and Ive never come even close
to running out of hull surface.

  As far as surface area goes its pretty easy to cram a dozen or more
turrets into a 100 D.ton design, finding power for the weapons is another
matter entirely. Even if you mount missile turrets, there comes a point
where they eat up so much internal volume, that you no longer have room
for drives, fuel etc. (Which might be a bit of a drag.) 

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:28:22 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

>>Ob Trav: How does the major interstellar navies classify their ships?
>By size and role.

But how do roles vary? There are no specialized "submarines" to attack.
In non-capital ships (<=10,000 tons) I suppose a distinction can be made
between ships optimized for attacking fighters, or other non-capital ships,
or capital ships, with armament varying accordingly. Imperial naval doctrine
in the canon sources seems to be that only capital ships fight other capital
ships; smaller ships are "escorts" of one kind or another, optimized for
engaging their smaller brethren. This is fair enough (and a legitimate
consequence of most Traveller combat systems, especially High Guard) but
implies that other navies don't work that way - the Solomani or Zhodani or
Vargr must have small ships designed for attacks against capital ships
(mostly missiles.) If I were a ship designer I would reserve the
"destroyer" name for ships with some anti-capital-ship punch, "escort" 
or "frigate" for others.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:18:57 +0200
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jussi_K._Kenkkil=E4?=" <Jussi.Kenkkila@Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: Beanstalks (was re: Ocean Going star/spaceports)

> 
> Beanstalks may not be 100% safe, either. 
> A White Dwarf magazine had a scenario called "Tower Trouble" in it, based
> around the beanstalk on Terra. One possible (though unlikely) outcome
> of the scenario had the beanstalk being cut, with the devastation of a major
> urban area following as miles of superdense cable fell on it from near-orbit.
> 

Kim Stanley Robinson Mars trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) has a
falling beanstalk in it. It shows just how much damage it coud really
cause. Simply because a beanstalk has to reach a geostationary orbit makes
it unbelievably long, and if it is cut near it's upper end, it's far end
will reach _very_ high velocity before impacting with the surface.

- -J2K

"Ge inte mrotter t de levande dda."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:44:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Canonicity

TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:
> > >The way HEPlaR/T-plates are presented in FF&S and Challenge wouldn't
> > >affect any of the source material, adventures, or campaigning in any
> > >way. 
> > 
> > No, it would. Plasma is *hot*. The implications are nasty in an
> > atmosphere or a confined space. Plasma arc cutters can be in excess of
> > 15,000 deg C 
> 
> It doesn't *have to* have any adverse effect when T-plates don't.  You
> might want to introduce such effects, but it isn't necessary (or
> desirable).  HEPLaR isn't a fusion drive, after all.

It _has to_ as long as its a simple reaction drive, because the power output of
a reaction drive has a lower limit of (jet velocity) * (thrust).  As a HEPLaR
thruster has an exhaust velocity of between .05 and .1 c (I don't recall
exactly, its equal to <thrust in newtons> / <fuel usage in kilograms per
second>) this works out to around 10 megawatts per newton.  Your minimal HEPLaR
thruster is 100,000 newtons, which works out to one terawatt of power output --
the equivalent of a 0.2 kiloton micronuke, every second.  This will have nasty
effects on the environment...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:12:13 +1100
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Subject: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

Dear Folks -

This is the first time I have had a moment to sit down and compose any sort of missive to the TML. Apologies for being off the air - I haven't even had time to read any of the TML (from #266 to #291 !!) so I don't know if the Debate has been cancelled or not. Too bad, even if it has, I am still working on chiselling "Stephen Alkell" into something resembling order before I post his reply. Was this Strephon's problem - too many things going on to cover every one adequately? The old J-O-T dilemma?

Anyway, on to the announcement (and reason for my delayed reply):
	"David and Leanne are pleased to announce the arrival of their
	second child, James Alan. Weighing in at 8 lb 3 oz*, he came
	into the world at 8.12 am on Saturday 6 March 1999. Mother
	pleased with the 5-hour labour (beats the previous 22hr ordeal)."

	"Mother and child both doing well." ;-)

And yes, pics WILL be posted to the webpage shortly, just as soon as I
finish my complete revamp of my site. Gee, I may even get around to
updating my links page!! (one can only hope!!!)

Back at work next week, may have more (lunch-) time to respond. ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:21:43 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules 

|>FREE THE BORDER WORLDS!!!
|
|USE THE STAR TRIGGER ON THE SWORD WORLDS!


Da, jes, de star tligger.  It vas a swordy inwention.







==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:20:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller bar encounter rules (was Re: Dr. Who Parody)

Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:21:04 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>

>Charles, this was a PARODY of a GURPS (Generic Unversal Role-Playing System)
>Bar Encounter...
>
>The whole encounter was SUPPOSED to be nondescript...

As such, it mostly, IMO, pointed up the biggest misconception
about GURPS.  GURPS is about generic "rules" not generic background.
That is the point that many miss when they read the rules.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:32:24 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Tower Trouble

Beanstalks were beaten to death on the TML and are now dead und buried
on the 2300AD ML. Beanstalk physics and materials science hyptheticals
were barely salveged out of ordeal and are archived on several 2300AD
websites.

For an excellent description of what happens when a synthetic diamond
beanstalk slams into a planet after it is cut you could never do better
than Stan Robinson's RED MARS.

MUSASHI

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:32:20 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: [DEBATE (sort-of)] Delay in Replying due to a Birth

"Hyphen" wrote:
| "Mother and child both doing well." ;-)


Woo-hoo!  Congrats, David.




==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader
___________hosted_by____________
              www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:28:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: was Who says civilian ships have to be wimps?

In a message dated 3/17/99 7:24:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, coles@evtc.com
writes:

<<  In the early 90's
 Intrepid started to host various sorts of corporate parties and events.
 They found that acting as a disco is much more profitable than being a
 museum.  But all those airplanes got in the way of dancing. So they've got
 rid of them.  Intrepid used to have a very fine collection of aircraft, but
 no more.  his has irritated lots of people and many of the other contributed
 displays (small artifacts, scale models, etc.) on Intrepid have been removed
 by the respective owners.  >>

I haven't lived in New since '90. I heard about the parties and thought it a
good idea to generate some more money for the museum, but I didn't know that
they removed the aircraft. I remember that most of the aircraft were on the
flight deck, and that the hanger deck had some WWII birds, missiles and
exhibits. What did they remove? If they moved the planes up to the flightdeck;
I guess that's not too bad, as I asume that the parties are in the hanger
deck. I wish that they only used some of the hanger deck (1/3 to 1/2) for the
parties and saved the rest for the museum. Of course a compromise like this
would make too much sense to do...:-(. Has anybody tried a campaign to stop
this nonsense like a letter writing campaign. I bet that if a lot of people
wrote and complained to contributers and to the Marine Corps Association (I
think that's the name of their fraternal club?); it would embarrrass this
knucklehead into restoring the exhibits. What's happening the the aircraft?
Are they being stored elsewhere or are being disposed of? This whole thing
upsets me greatly, as I used to spend a LOT of time there...

Ob Trav: Does the 3I care nothing about History (especially Military History)
like Americans?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:35:53 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: For the "humor challenged"

In a message dated 3/17/99 7:48:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
prevattec@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< The bar'/inn has been a fixture of all to many games I've played in.
 Everyone uses it in pick up games or to fast start a new group.  I've always
 done my best in campains to make 'the bar' an interesting place.  Sometimes
 a very scary place.  If it is to be the 'gangs' hangout it should have some
 personality.  If it is just an inn on the road to somewhere more interesting
 then I just say, 'You find lodging for the night.  The night passes without
 incident and you continue your journey at dawn.'
  >>

Quite true; the bar is a sci-fantasy staple...Glenn Cook used them many times
in his Black Company series. Interesting things always happened in bars...

Ob Trav: use them in adventures...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:39:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Informal Reader Poll : What Would You Like To See In FF&S3?

In a message dated 3/17/99 8:20:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< Hell, I'd love to see a Traveller CD-ROM that contained .pdfs of the rules,
 had Referee-aid software, and all the spreadsheets.  You could put in
 pregenerated forms like those found in Supplement 12.. all sorts of stuff.
 
 And the nice thing is that most of us on the list would contribute work
 just to make Traveller better. >>

There is NO reason why all of the GDW CT,MT, TNE, T4 stuff couldn't be put in
a CD. I wouldn't have to thumb through my LBB's until they fall apart...Please
Marc; allow this...(you'll get royalties...:-) )

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:45:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Grav tank tactics

> The problem is that at TL9, the tanks will have individual point-defense
> systems (at least if FS is anywhere near the contract), allowing them to
> shred a lot of incoming artillery fire. 

Unless arty improves significantly it isn't a serious threat to armor, much
less grav armor, and point defense isn't needed for a line MBT, though
possibly specialized support units might maintain some.  

Arty needs fire direction.  Odds are incredibly against a ranging shot (much
less a blind barrage) landing on a tank.  You seen one round plop in front of
you, then another plop behind you, you're in deep do-do.  lol.  When you see
those ranging shots, you button up and notify on the net that arty has been
observed, and it location by coordinates (NOT "someones shooting at us!",
which will only get a full barrage put on you when the enemy commanders tell
their arty to keep doing whatever their doing) and then you go to high speed
and spread out, having manuever/recon elements search obvious locations for
the forward observer/ fire director and ruin his whole day.  Meanwhile Air
looks for a puff of smoke or something indicative of where the arty shots are
coming from and either delivers their own ordnance or tells friendly arty
where to put their ranging shots.

This brings to mind grav armor tactics.  In general, in today's TL8 military
realities, if you hit an aircraft, it goes down.  Aircraft survive by speed
and manueverability, not their ability to take punishment.  Of course, there
are exceptions (A-10 comes to mind), but it's gotta be alot different for
Traveller.  Grav tanks can take a pounding and dish it out too, and seem
likely to render conventional artillery ineffective.  For that matter,
infantry would have to become more specialized, too, in favor of urban combat
and other specialized roles.  Grav armor tactics are probably a blend of
aircraft and armor tactics.  Combine flight, high speed, and massive armor and
firepower and you have something unlike anything we know of.  Heavily armed
and armored lift vehicles seem destined to be the queen of battle...

Does anyone familiar w/ OGRE or the Renegade Legion stuff by FASA have
anything relevant or any light to shed here?  


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #299
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